transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] The following podcast is a Dear Media production. I am beyond excited for my guest today. I have my good friend, author Xochitl Gonzalez here. Xochitl has written some of my very favorite books. She wrote Olga Dies Dreaming, a New York Times bestseller. Anita de Monte Laughs Last, which was one of Reese Witherspoon's book club picks. She's got a new book out called Last Night in Brooklyn that I could not put down. It was so fantastic. She's also a Pulitzer Prize finalist. She writes for The Atlantic. I mean, she's one of those friends that I just kind of fell over. I just delight in her success. And she wasn't always an author. She used to be a high-end event planner. She's also a dog mom to Hector Laveau. And she is a damn good cook.

Speaker 2:
[01:09] So chill.

Speaker 1:
[01:10] I'm so excited that you're here. Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[01:13] I'm so glad you got to test a couple of my recipes.

Speaker 1:
[01:15] Yes. So Ryan and I recently made your Purneel because you're Puerto Rican. Yes. So when we wanted to make Purneel, we had to text you for the recipe.

Speaker 2:
[01:26] Yes. It was so fun. We used to, when we were young, my friends and I would always do New Year's together. And there's a few, there's like a couple of Dominicans and a couple of other Puerto Ricans, and we'd have a Purneel off.

Speaker 1:
[01:36] Oh, that would be pretty. I'd like to go to. What's the backstory on your recipe? Because we were like looking at recipes online and comparing them. And then yours was a little different than we were with yours.

Speaker 2:
[01:49] So it's like three or four different recipes kind of combined that like I had played around with. But like my family's style was like a lot of garlic. And so then, but I didn't know the like measurements and proportions. So when I was when I originally was hunting online, I was like, oh, but I was. But then we used to use orange juice. And so like I kind of made a couple of things combined, but I think it works.

Speaker 1:
[02:13] It was so good.

Speaker 2:
[02:14] Oh, the chicharron. The chicharron is so good.

Speaker 1:
[02:17] Fabulous.

Speaker 2:
[02:18] Like, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:19] I had never made that before neither had Ryan. And so we got the pork shoulder and we only got four pounds, even though your recipe was seven to eight pounds because it was just the two of us. And when I tell you that we were left with like a tiny little handful at the end, we ate so much pork that night. And it was just like fall off the bone. I took it out of the casserole dish and put it on a serving platter because I wanted to get a pretty picture of it. And it just fell apart. I was trying to transfer. I should have just taken the picture in the casserole dish. Falling off the bone and then the chicharrón, that fat and skin on the top. It was so crispy.

Speaker 2:
[02:59] Yeah, that's my favorite. It's the best part. And then people come and they steal. That's the thing that everybody always steals, right? Like it's so good. It's so the problem with doing too little is that then you don't get to have sandwiches the next day, which is exactly like, yeah, that was a real mistake.

Speaker 1:
[03:15] I assumed that four pounds for two people, a one child would be enough. It was not. I took Iris wanted hurts as a quesadilla, so I chopped up a perennial and made a quesadilla out of it. Yeah. Fabulous.

Speaker 2:
[03:29] It's like all my cultures.

Speaker 1:
[03:30] Yes. She's really into fusion food. Exactly. No, it was great.

Speaker 2:
[03:39] Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1:
[03:40] And then Ryan made your Muffungo.

Speaker 2:
[03:42] Yes, which I don't make that much that I have not perfected. So I hope it came out OK.

Speaker 1:
[03:46] It was very good.

Speaker 2:
[03:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[03:47] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[03:48] Yeah. That's like a real like you want to be serving it, you know, like. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[03:51] Can you explain what Muffungo is?

Speaker 2:
[03:53] So it's basically like almost like a plantain done like a mashed potato. But again, a lot of garlic, which is like fantastic. It's so yummy. And like that particular version has like a little sauce that goes kind of on the bottom. And it's just it's the most comforting yummy starch. And it's just I love it. I love it. I love it. And it's like there's a Dominican version that's oh, my gosh, I'm blanking on the name of it. But it's like there's kind of like people have like their their two like rival dishes. There's a lot of obvious similarities between the two. But I'm a Muffungo person.

Speaker 1:
[04:26] Like, is that something you all would make like a pernil Muffungo when you're growing up?

Speaker 2:
[04:31] So usually with pernil, we do arroz con habichuelas, or we'll do like arroz con gondules. Arroz con gondules is like almost the more traditional. It's like green like pigeon peas. And it's so yummy. That's so easy. Like I have to give you that recipe.

Speaker 1:
[04:44] So how do you make that?

Speaker 2:
[04:45] That is literally like you start out with like a sofrito. And so you kind of like you throw oil in the pan, you sort of saute your sofrito, you put in a little of the cecson. And then if you're going to put it, you end up throwing in a can of like tomato sauce, like eight ounces of tomato sauce, you stir in the rice, you stir in the pigeon peas, a bay leaf. It's just so, it's just a very delightful rice dish. And it's like kind of, I don't know, it's just very comforting. It's like the perfect companion to that pernil. But oh my gosh, it's so good.

Speaker 1:
[05:20] It sounds perfect. My stomach is growling.

Speaker 2:
[05:22] It's really, really good. It's really yummy. It's like a good snack. That's a great one if you have vegetarians in your life because you just use a veggie stock and it's so, so yummy. Oh my gosh. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[05:33] I think Puerto Rico has such delicious food. Ryan and I, that was one of our first real fall in love places was Puerto Rico. Because we were filming Beach Bites. That was when we had our secret romance. And we filmed in San Juan. And we would sneak out at night to meet up and have a meal together. Yeah, because nobody in our crew knew. And there was a restaurant that we went to. I have to look up what that was called. And they would do this grilled whole fish. And we had all these little sauces with it. And we still talk about that all the time as like one of the, we actually went twice while we were there because it was so good. One of the best things we've ever eaten.

Speaker 2:
[06:16] Oh my gosh, it's like, well, the other thing I love about making Puerto Rican food is like it's the best party food. Because it's like relatively like it's the prep and then it reheats really well and you can do big batches of it and like we like to party. So like now it's a big like dish. The last time I was there, I had the best food memory because we went to Araciba, which is where my grandfather's side of the family is from. And I hadn't, you know, like when you're young and you're eating things, you don't understand that it's like an ethnic cuisine. Like I don't know. It's just what you're eating. And like we used to have when I was younger, he'd make this like octopus and olive dish. Oh, wow. Oh my God. It is so good. But like, and I'd forgotten I loved it. And then I don't know, like you just get older. My grandfather's steps cooking, like whatever you don't have it. And like I saw it on the menu and I was like, we have to have this. And as soon I was like, oh my God. Like I was like, I started like crying. It was like the best.

Speaker 1:
[07:13] Isn't that the best?

Speaker 2:
[07:14] Yes. It's like the best food memory. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:17] So much nostalgia around food.

Speaker 2:
[07:19] So much nostalgia.

Speaker 1:
[07:20] And those flavors. Is there anywhere in New York, like any restaurants you could recommend for Puerto Rican food?

Speaker 2:
[07:26] You know, like there's a couple of places in Central Park. There used to be an awesome place in Tribeca that was like a little fancy. It was called Cesson. They had a place uptown too. Oh my God. And they would have like, oh, it was awesome. They would do like their happy hour would erupt into like a salsa party. Like my offices were here. So we would walk over there and like, it was awesome. But I'm trying to think like El Gran Castillo in Brooklyn is pretty good. But like, you know, I have to get uptown more because that's like kind of where the hotspots are. There's a couple of places. Oh, Badio BX in the Bronx. If anybody ever feels like really doing like, it is the best dance party, watch party. Like there's like salsa, they have salsa nights, they have live bomba, plena. They have the best, like the owner, he, like just the food is excellent. Like their brunch is awesome. Like it's like all the traditional dishes and then all like, you know, like you can get, you know, kind of brunchy food, like whatever, like a porter, you can take out a French toast. But like mainly it's like the culture and the community. It's like decorated in these fabulous, fabulous murals. Like you, it's just a beautiful space. We should go there. Oh, it's so much fun. It's so much fun. It's the most fun. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1:
[08:35] Do you dance at brunch?

Speaker 2:
[08:36] You can dance at brunch. There's a DJ.

Speaker 1:
[08:38] I would like that because I don't have to go out at night. I can be out during the day.

Speaker 2:
[08:42] It's a great place to go with people you don't have a lot in common with because you can't hear each other talk. The DJ is so good. This guy, Tony Martinez, it's a second location. But this one is so fabulous because the murals are unbelievable. Like it's all these different political figures. And it's like every the name of every town just beautifully like muraled on all the walls. It's just really an awesome, awesome place.

Speaker 1:
[09:05] Yeah, sounds amazing. I definitely want to go there.

Speaker 2:
[09:08] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:08] So, Jill, I think that what we're going to have to do this summer, I'm just thinking, listening to you talk since you used to be an event planner. Yeah, I think that you need to have a Puerto Rican themed party.

Speaker 2:
[09:21] Oh, my God. I think that's a really good idea. I think it's a great idea.

Speaker 1:
[09:25] You need to make the rice that you just told me about. We need to put on some good music. Maybe have a brunch at your place.

Speaker 2:
[09:33] Let's totally do it.

Speaker 1:
[09:34] I think it will be so fun. Let's talk a little bit about how you had a career pivot because you weren't always a famous author. It wasn't until you were 40 that you started writing.

Speaker 2:
[09:46] Yeah, I was 40.

Speaker 1:
[09:47] I mean, you were writing, but sort of professionally.

Speaker 2:
[09:50] Yeah, like I had a blog to promote my business, my event planning business. And then my grandmother passed away. And when I went to go and see her right as she was dying, she was like, you never have been a fearful person. Because she was kind of like a very, like she lived in this tiny little area in Brooklyn. She barely left the neighborhood. Her life was very, and she's like, you were always so fearless. She's like, never stop being fearless. And I had, and then when she passed away, like we sold the house and like, it was like graduate with like student debt and all these other things. We were very like working class growing up. And then I like was able to pay kind of everything off. And all of a sudden I was like, well, what would you want to do if you weren't like worried about things? And I was like, well, I'd really like to write. Like, cause I kind of, when I was young, I thought I would want to do that. And then I remember like my college roommate was like an excellent writer, she won the Seventeen Magazine Fiction Writing Contest. I know, it's very intimidating. Yes. That's very intimidating. And you're like, well, I guess I should find something else to do. Like, I can't sleep. I really, I was like, writing's her thing. It's so 18, like you're so like an 18 year old thinks that way. And so then I was like, you know what, I still kind of would like to do that. And I went to this like writing camp, like literally, it was like camp 10 days in Vermont. Like we stayed in adult dorms and it was like all various aged adults like, and there's like big dance parties at night. It's like we ate in a big cafeteria. It's called the Bread Loaf Writers Conference. And I was like, oh, it was like in that Blind Melon video when she finds the bees. Like I was like, I found my bees. Like here, this is amazing. And I made a couple of friends there and we started a little writing group in my apartment in Brooklyn. And then I was like, I'm gonna apply for my MFA. And I ended up getting into, I won a contest. I applied for a contest, I won this writing contest. And I ended up getting into the Iowa Writers Workshop, which is like-

Speaker 1:
[11:47] Which is like the most prestigious. Yeah. Like way to just start at the top.

Speaker 2:
[11:52] I know, but you know what's so great is that my friend Clavis, who I met at Bread Loaf, she was like, she had gotten an MFA, couldn't sell her first book. And then went into corporate America, got married, had two kids, was living in Jersey. And she's like, I don't know if I didn't. And she was trying to get back into writing when I met her. And she was like, I didn't have this husband and these two kids, I'd apply to Iowa. And I had been married and got divorced pretty young. And so I was like, you know what? You're right. And so I just applied. And then when I got in, it was like this life changing turn of events. It was really, really wild. And I finished my first book. I started it before I got there. I finished it my first semester. We sold it in a big bunch of auctions. I met my agent in a bar method class.

Speaker 1:
[12:36] You're kidding.

Speaker 2:
[12:37] You never heard that story?

Speaker 1:
[12:38] No.

Speaker 2:
[12:39] No. Somebody that was with me worked in publishing. And in the locker room, she saw Molly and knew she was an agent. She said, you two should meet. She's like, send me what you're working on. And I sent her the first 100 pages of Olga. And she signed me for Book and Book to Film. Wow. And I remember going to meet her in her office. And she was like, I don't want to be one of these people. I know it does to these people. But I was like, I don't want to take 10 years to write a book. Like, I just I think that that would make me actually a little nuts. Like, and so and she was like, in 10 years, I bet you'll have five books. And now it's like six years, seven, almost seven years. And my fourth, I'm finishing my fourth book and this is my third book coming out.

Speaker 1:
[13:22] So it's incredible.

Speaker 2:
[13:23] It's crazy, right? It's so crazy.

Speaker 1:
[13:25] Yes. I mean, I think it's interesting to go back to what you said that when you were paid off all those debts and you were able to say, well, what would I just want to do?

Speaker 2:
[13:35] Oh, my God. It was almost like a fog cleared. Does that make any sense? It was like really wild.

Speaker 1:
[13:40] It's amazing how much we do and get like stuck in a hamster wheel to pay for things instead of being able the freedom of being able to do just whatever you want. And then I think that that kind of ties into, I know now you've been writing nonfiction about class and people who are born being able to just do whatever they want to do.

Speaker 2:
[14:01] Yeah. Yeah. It's such a different mindset. It's a very different mindset. And I think it's really hard to imagine what it's like to not have had those things like right. Like and it's like and I think it's like I've been the big thing that I've been trying to think about is like, how do you have that conversation without making anybody feel bad? Because like it's like you can't feel bad that you were born with brown hair or like, you know, like it's like, it's just the way like where the circumstances in which you were born. But it is true that it creates like different ways of seeing the world and it creates different sets of choices. Right. And so like for sure, more than anything, I felt so grateful to have that chance to be like, to pause for five seconds and be like, wait a second. Like it's not that this is not good because my life is actually kind of nice. I was in business with my best friend. We traveled a lot. It was fun. But I was like, but I feel there's this other thing that I could do. And so I just really, I'm always telling people, I'm always telling people, especially if they grew up without a lot of money, I'm like, please don't think it's too late because you just don't know why you took that detour. You took that detour for one reason and then that's not the reason anymore. Like, right? Like, it's like a re-assess.

Speaker 1:
[15:16] I mean, you could say your reason was Olga was kind of a slightly biographical.

Speaker 2:
[15:21] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[15:21] Olga was an event planner.

Speaker 2:
[15:23] Olga was an event planner.

Speaker 1:
[15:24] And I loved the opening of Olga with The Napkin Story. Just briefly, it was about, you can tell how high end a wedding is by the fabric of The Napkin. Tell about that.

Speaker 2:
[15:43] But it was so true because I remembered when we first started doing weddings, we would kind of take whatever, you know, like, and we were like doing weddings, catering halls, like where my family, like, like we were doing basically like family weddings, like like like a cousin, like it could have been like a cousin. And you get these like polyester napkins, you know, like you don't even think anything of it because you're like, I don't know, I'm here for five hours, like it's gonna come here and have a good time at my cousin's wedding. And like, and then I remember, like then you're like, it's your business. And suddenly you're like, well, I want to do the thing that gets in a magazine and you're looking and then you're like, oh my god, those napkins are beautiful. And you're like dealing with a good napkin that was like 50 cents a person versus like a $5 per person napkin. I mean, by the time I was done, like, oh my god, the money that we could get, people spend it on napkins. It was really crazy.

Speaker 1:
[16:34] It was the most expensive napkin.

Speaker 2:
[16:36] I think we ended up having these like $35 napkins because they were Liberty of London print. And then they were backlined because that's not thick enough for a napkin. They were backlined with linen. And then by the way, you're like, but literally part of what inspired that whole thing is that because then she steals some of the napkins for her cousin. But it was because like, I was like, but like literally, what are you going to do with these 300 custom Liberty of London napkins?

Speaker 1:
[16:59] So did you ever take the napkins?

Speaker 2:
[17:01] I never took, actually, that's not totally true. Not only did I take napkins, there was at one point a rug that like just got bought. And then I was like, well, I guess I'll take it to my apartment. I don't know. I was, do you want this rug? And they were like, huh? Like, they didn't even know I bought the rug.

Speaker 1:
[17:16] They were like, what's the rug for?

Speaker 2:
[17:18] What are you talking about?

Speaker 1:
[17:19] Because that's what people do. They will re-carpet a ballroom.

Speaker 2:
[17:22] Oh, yes, yes.

Speaker 1:
[17:23] So the carpet matches whatever they're getting for it.

Speaker 2:
[17:26] Everything matches. So like we, at that time, like specialized in like hippie dippy, like, you know, like it was like very hot hippie kind of look. And so it was, I mean, there were random weird things that would end up in my house, but people take things for weddings all the time.

Speaker 1:
[17:40] After a few drinks, people start taking stuff.

Speaker 2:
[17:42] After a few drinks, things just get into a burst.

Speaker 1:
[17:44] I mean, I have taken a flower arrangement.

Speaker 2:
[17:46] Well, if you were, you know, like you'd be stoned for not taking the flower arrangements.

Speaker 1:
[17:53] They just go to waste.

Speaker 2:
[17:54] They just go to waste.

Speaker 1:
[17:55] You should take them home. Right? I think you should take them home. I have heard of people donating them to hospitals before.

Speaker 2:
[18:00] I have heard of that, but again, no, you know, it's actually very difficult. Like, it's like a lot of trouble. And then like, and then usually people change their mind and they realize that it costs you something. Because like you have to pay the service that comes to take them and then they're like, never mind, we'll just let people take them home.

Speaker 1:
[18:17] Right.

Speaker 2:
[18:18] Right.

Speaker 1:
[18:22] I want to talk about something that doesn't get said enough. Sometimes you just stop feeling like yourself. It's not one big thing. It's that sleeps off, the mood that's harder to manage, the feeling that you're just running on empty while still showing up for everyone else. And for a lot of women, myself included, sleep is where it really starts to unravel. That's why I've been looking into this brand called Batch. They're a Wisconsin-based hemp wellness company founded by chemical engineers, not marketers, not influencers, which I think says a lot. Their whole focus is clean ingredients and full transparency. You can actually see exactly what's in every product. Their nighttime gummies are formulated with CBD and CBN and designed specifically for deeper, more restorative sleep, not just falling asleep, but actually waking up and feeling like a functional human again. What I like is that it's not about anything extreme. It's just a supportive way to wind down at the end of the day. I took one last night. I had such a good night's sleep. I've got no grogginess today. I'm not guessing about what I'm putting in my body. Everything is clearly tested and verified. It's one of those small shifts that can really change how you feel the next day, your mood, your patience, your ability to just handle life. And that's really the goal here. Not checking out, just getting back to the baseline. Right now, Batch is offering 30% off site-wide. And yes, that includes subscriptions. So you can lock that in. Go to hellobatch.com/katielee and use the code Katie Lee at checkout. Olga was a little biographical. That was very like write what you know. Anita DeMonte laughs last last night in Brooklyn. Both of those were like such high concepts. Like Anita was super high concept. That book to me was like it like shook me to my soul. I loved that. I could not put it down. Ryan read it after me. He couldn't put it down either. Really, really amazing. And I was reading it because you were writing that when we were spending a lot of time together.

Speaker 2:
[20:27] Remember that summer?

Speaker 1:
[20:29] Summer, we were both renting a house in the same neighborhood.

Speaker 2:
[20:32] On the same street. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:33] And we had dinner together probably three or four nights a week.

Speaker 2:
[20:37] And Iris was so, thank God, because I never cooked dinner for myself when I'm in the middle of something. And Iris was so little. Oh my gosh. She was like a baby.

Speaker 1:
[20:46] But then I read the book and I was like, this is what she was writing all summer? How the hell did she come up with this? This is brilliant. It's so good. And then now reading Last Night in Brooklyn. So that to me, like I felt like I'm a very nostalgic person. And I'm also the type that like I know change is good, but I have a hard time with change. Yeah. And I also think that the early 2000s, for me, that was like when I came up in New York. So to me that's, oh, that was the best time in New York. And I know everybody feels that about whatever their time was. But for me, it was this early 2000s. So I loved reading this story that was set during that time in New York. And it's very Gatsby-ish.

Speaker 2:
[21:36] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[21:37] So, yes, tell me about that. Like, how did you come up with that?

Speaker 2:
[21:41] So I went to, okay, when I'm working on a book, I'm like a lunatic and as you know, I barely stop and then maybe for dinner and like, and I'm usually, I look terrible.

Speaker 1:
[21:52] I have no excuse for looking terrible. At least you were right the other day.

Speaker 2:
[21:56] Then when it's done, I do like, it's like I come into civilization and I'm like, oh, I'm going to see every play and doing everything. And so I went to go and see this gender swapped company. Do you know company? So it's a Sondheim musical, and it's basically about this guy having his like, at that point, it's written in the late 70s or early 80s. So it's like 30th birthday. So they gender, and it's a guy, and he's a bachelor, and all of his friends are married. And it's actually a hilarious, really good musical. And then by the end, he meets somebody and falls in love. But they gender swapped it, and they aged the woman up to 40. But they didn't change anything else. Like she had no issues with turning 40 and being single. She had no issues with her friends being like, what are you going to meet somebody? First of all, even that question for a woman is so like loaded. It's like, when are you going to meet somebody? It was just like bad. It wasn't the performances or anything else, but I was so bothered by the fact that they did this. Then I was like, what's another story that really hinges on how a guy would act? I was thinking about The Great Gatsby because I was like, oh my God, imagine if a woman had an ex. How would she not lure him back? She would not lure him back by being like, guess how successful I've gotten? I bought a house across the harbor from you so I could watch you.

Speaker 1:
[23:20] Let's send him running the opposite direction.

Speaker 2:
[23:21] He's running the other way, right?

Speaker 1:
[23:26] I just was kind of like. I bought a house across the harbor so I could watch you.

Speaker 2:
[23:35] When that light's on. I was like, when that light's on, it means that I'm watching, it's so creepy. That would not work. Then I was like, and why would a woman call her ex-boyfriend anyway? Especially if he'd moved on. Then I just started thinking about that and thinking about what would be different. I was like, oh, she'd need something. I was like, because I've definitely called ex-boyfriends. I was like, I have definitely done that. Oh my God. I'd gone on a bunch of dates with the Maider D at 11 Madison Park. I just am thinking about it. I was like, how are you?

Speaker 1:
[24:21] I need a reservation.

Speaker 2:
[24:27] Then I'd read this article in Eater, and it was like, when did everybody start hanging out on DeKalb Avenue? I was like, in 1995. I just was thinking about how awesome that time was in New York in general, but also in that particular neighborhood. So I kind of had this idea of switching it up so that Gatsby's in Brooklyn, and instead of Manhattan, because it was like, oh my God. Well, we loved going to the Hamptons when we were young. It just was the epitome of aspirationalness, and the clubs there, and the whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[25:04] All the Hamptons clubs you mentioned, I remember.

Speaker 2:
[25:07] Oh my God, yeah. Right. But like, you know, we're, everybody's very ambitious, because I do feel like that was a big part of that time. Because like, I think the recession just changed so much for people. But like, everybody felt like everything was kind of possible. And like, and then what ended up being this weird thing that the book ends up kind of being about without me thinking it at the time was, I just hadn't realized how much all this technology had changed our lives, and how differently we behaved because nobody was photographing us.

Speaker 1:
[25:37] Right.

Speaker 2:
[25:38] Like nobody was making content. Like we were just like living present. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[25:43] I know. I always think about New York before the recession.

Speaker 2:
[25:47] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[25:47] Like that pre 2008 time.

Speaker 2:
[25:50] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[25:50] And pre social media.

Speaker 2:
[25:53] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[25:53] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[25:54] It was really fun.

Speaker 2:
[25:55] It was so fun.

Speaker 1:
[25:56] It was so fun.

Speaker 2:
[25:57] It was so fun and it was so honestly more romantic. Like I don't like to like be too like, I don't know. I'm always like, I don't want to be Puerto Rican Andy Rooney, but like I like just go to those days. But like, but I was on the subway today and I was watching people, like and everybody was on their phone. And I was thinking about, do you remember when Craigslist like was like a thing and they'd have like missed connections? Like, and yeah, and literally it would be like, I was on the 6 train uptown at 8 o'clock this morning and you were in this kind of coat and we made eye contact. Like, please reach out. Like, it's so crazy, but like, I remember people would meet that way. And like, I'm like, nobody would notice anybody now.

Speaker 1:
[26:39] No, no, no, not at all. Because everyone's just losing their phones.

Speaker 2:
[26:44] And so it was like, it ended up being this thing that felt very poignant to me as it was coming together because I was like, oh, I was like, it's not just these characters' story. It's like encapsulating the end of a time where we lived a certain way. That was not what I meant to make the story about, right? It just was sort of the subtext that was kind of interesting.

Speaker 1:
[27:04] You captured that moment in time. I've heard a couple of different people who worked in bars and clubs and restaurants talk about during that time, you had to go out to be seen. You had to put on your best clothes, you had to be in the hottest room. Guys would go out and buy a $500 bottle of vodka to get girls to come to their table. That was how you went out and got noticed. Now, you can just post a picture and that's how you're seen. Yeah, that's right. So it really changed the way that we, well, of course, it changed the way we socialize. But I often wonder, maybe it's just because I'm older and that's not my scene. But there were certain places that you went where it was like, that's the room where it happened.

Speaker 2:
[27:52] That's exactly right.

Speaker 1:
[27:53] I wonder, does that exist as much anymore?

Speaker 2:
[27:56] I don't know. I never like to say that nightlife is over, but I definitely feel like it's a smaller group, is what it seems like. But I don't know about that room where it happens. Because also, I do feel like younger people just haven't had the same means of taking. We had media and you could grow up and end up editing a magazine. There's no more any centralized culture. I just think it's different. I think that there are probably always going to be young people going out and having a great time, which is a lot of fun and I love thinking about it. But I definitely feel like there was something very like, there was an aphrodisiac to not knowing who might walk into a room. Then when you found yourself there, I'm very curious how my younger readers, I'm almost 50, and I have readers that are women, now they're in their late 20s probably. But because I was like, oh my God, I was like, we were very unapologetic about like, women were paid less than men. So we're like, you're going to pay for this and I'm going to come and I'll get you into this club and you are going to pay for all my drinks. You never said that, but it was like this unspoken.

Speaker 1:
[29:13] It's an understanding.

Speaker 2:
[29:14] Yes, it was this very unspoken understanding. I was like, oh my God, my younger female readers might clutch their pearls. It's like, like, exchange this of it. I was like, but it was just kind of like that.

Speaker 1:
[29:26] And guys needed girls to get into places.

Speaker 2:
[29:28] They couldn't get, again, and you had to go to places. Like otherwise, what were you doing? Like what were you doing?

Speaker 1:
[29:34] What were you doing?

Speaker 2:
[29:34] You weren't watching YouTube.

Speaker 1:
[29:37] That's for certain. You weren't looking at your phone because you had a flip phone.

Speaker 2:
[29:41] No, but like even that, like even working on that, like it was so funny because you would, even TV was so social because everyone was kind of doing the same shows. So like, you know, on Sundays, it wasn't that people didn't go out on Sunday, but you went out after The Sopranos.

Speaker 1:
[29:57] Yes, because it wasn't streaming.

Speaker 2:
[29:59] Because it wasn't streaming.

Speaker 1:
[30:00] You had to watch it in real time.

Speaker 2:
[30:01] And you did not want to not miss it and have to catch it later after people were talking about it.

Speaker 1:
[30:05] Oh no.

Speaker 2:
[30:06] Oh my God, no.

Speaker 1:
[30:07] That's why I always like it when a streamer releases episodes once a week. Like White Lotus once a week.

Speaker 2:
[30:13] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[30:13] I like it because then appointment TV feels good.

Speaker 2:
[30:17] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[30:17] Instead of binging.

Speaker 2:
[30:18] I love appointment TV and I feel like it also, I think we're just longing for those moments of commonness.

Speaker 1:
[30:26] I think so. And it must have been interesting, like getting into the mindset to write that and like having to remember all the old places.

Speaker 2:
[30:33] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:
[30:34] Yes. Also, it was where you're from Brooklyn, like where you spent your time.

Speaker 2:
[30:39] Yes. It was so, well, it was so wild because I hadn't realized how much the stadium rezoning changed Brooklyn because it was all the building rezoning.

Speaker 1:
[30:49] With Barclays.

Speaker 2:
[30:50] With Barclays and like, and so it kind of-

Speaker 1:
[30:52] I kind of forgot about that too.

Speaker 2:
[30:53] I know.

Speaker 1:
[30:53] I forgot about the time before Barclays and when everybody was upset about Barclays.

Speaker 2:
[30:57] And when everybody's upset about Barclays and like, and then how, but also it took so long to go up because there was so much fighting about it, that it started to feel like this abstraction, like you're like, who knows? Like, I'm like, I don't know, like they're doing something.

Speaker 1:
[31:10] Something will happen there.

Speaker 2:
[31:10] They're doing something and I guess something will happen, who knows? But like, I ended up ordering so many, I do this almost every book if it's set in the past, but I ordered so many New York magazines from eBay.

Speaker 1:
[31:24] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[31:24] Yes, like I, and I always like, there's like archival newspapers, like that's like easy to get, but like the New York magazine's like actually physically getting them, and like seeing like the fashion issues and like what the ads were, and like what, oh my God, the classifieds because they still had classifieds. Like, like, so it really, like to me, that's like one of the best ways to get back in it because you forget so many things. And like, oh, and like, you know, they used to do the thing where they'd go and take photos of everybody and then pull out the photos and like where they were. And I was like, oh my God, I forgot about that place. It was just such a great like memory builder, like a refresher. It was it was so exciting.

Speaker 1:
[32:05] What a great idea.

Speaker 2:
[32:06] Yeah, it was really cool.

Speaker 1:
[32:07] It must have been fun going through those magazines.

Speaker 2:
[32:09] It was so much fun. It was so much fun. And then it was like because like in the backdrop, right, is like that Democratic primary between Hillary and Obama. And so I actually like just by coincidence, it was like like they're like, who's this guy from Illinois? Like you're like watching it. And then it's suddenly like, how did he manage to fundraise Hillary Clinton?

Speaker 1:
[32:32] Like it was like we had no idea what we were in.

Speaker 2:
[32:34] No idea what we were in. No, no, no, no. It was so wild to like just I think that we don't even realize how much things have changed because it feels like it's been so much like it's like so much life, I know it's like things it's just been crammed into. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:54] The last 10 years.

Speaker 2:
[32:56] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[32:56] So much has happened.

Speaker 2:
[32:57] Yes. Well, we if you think about it, we never talk about the recession.

Speaker 1:
[33:00] No, it's like something that we don't even think about anymore. And I think that we felt it so much in New York City.

Speaker 2:
[33:07] Yes. Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[33:09] And it was like people were like jumping off buildings.

Speaker 2:
[33:13] I mean, our business was like, oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[33:17] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[33:18] That was worse than like childhood. Like that was like, it was like, I'd never had so little money in my life because like I used to work, like we'd get all of our clients at an investment bank and then we'd work a desk. You know, like this guy get engaged and we'd get referred from him, that we'd get referred from him. And I must have, let's say we had like 20 clients. Like first it was Bear. And then we lost like five weddings or whatever. And then like a few months later, it was Lehman. And then everybody else is panicking because they're like, well, what if we are next? And so like, you know, they're like, well, I want to cut my budget. You know, like it was really like, it was real. And then you had in New York that's so interesting because it didn't affect people other places. It was like, so many people like really got their money taken by Bernie Madoff.

Speaker 1:
[34:05] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[34:05] It was like a real thing. Like it was not abstract.

Speaker 1:
[34:08] Not at all.

Speaker 2:
[34:09] It's like, oh, you know, so and so. Like it was really like a very strange, like rough time.

Speaker 1:
[34:16] Like, yeah, it was a really strange time.

Speaker 2:
[34:18] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:20] I got divorced in 2009. Oh, wow. And like, I remember feeling like everyone was in some kind of turmoil.

Speaker 2:
[34:29] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[34:30] And I felt strangely comforted by that.

Speaker 3:
[34:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:33] Because I was in a state of turmoil. I was like, well, everybody else is kind of feeling the same way.

Speaker 3:
[34:39] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:39] Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about your next book because you already on Instagram talk a lot about class.

Speaker 2:
[34:47] Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1:
[34:47] So this is a nonfiction book.

Speaker 2:
[34:49] This is a nonfiction book.

Speaker 1:
[34:51] And I was thinking, watching your Instagram about class and food.

Speaker 2:
[34:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:58] And I think that, you know, I get so frustrated. You know, I'm on the board of Food Bank for New York. And I get so frustrated when I see so much of the food, like in the Maha. I know people will be mad at me for talking about this, but whatever. I get mad when I see stuff with Maha because I think that it's so elitist in a lot of ways. And you think of the class differences in eating and how that really does affect our health. And people just don't have access. It's like you can be telling people, oh, you should eat more grass fed beef. Well, that's great if you have money.

Speaker 2:
[35:41] God, yes.

Speaker 1:
[35:42] But if you don't, that's not a reality.

Speaker 2:
[35:45] It's not a reality.

Speaker 1:
[35:47] Food deserts and people who don't have access to produce. I'll go up and do food packing for people. And the produce that is donated, we have to go through to find what's molded and not molded.

Speaker 2:
[35:59] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[35:59] Because that's when it finally makes it to somebody who doesn't have access to get donated. Is it molded? Is it not molded?

Speaker 2:
[36:07] Not molded. That's right. I mean, I've thought so much about this because it's actually, it's just so expensive to eat as healthily as we're told to eat. And then there's so much judgment in people's inability to do it. And I think that that is, I was, because I've been thinking about this about, like, just the whole idea about a ladder, you know, it's like, like, it implies, on the one hand, that people are better because they figured out how to get their way up there, even though it never indicates that people are sometimes just born there, right? But then it implies that the people who can't figure it out are like too weak or like too incompetent. And I think that that's a lot of the food conversation too. It's like, well, they're just negligent. It's like, like, this is literally the food deserts are so real. Like, oh my gosh. Like it's it's even in New York, there are like giant swaths of food desert where you could not get like a good, a decent, oh my God, talk about grass-fed beef. Like, oh my God, get out of here. You're lucky if you can get like some chicken nuggets someplace. I do agree with you. I think that we have a hard time accepting that like we, everybody's not in the financial circumstance that we portray Americans as having. Because I really think that there's such a nicer way to do it where we look at other cultures that are not, that don't have the same access to beef and meats and things like that. And like how are they producing these delicious meals, right? Like that are like low cost and like, and less to your point, like how do you make, I don't know, there's a lot of, you know, because in Puerto Rico, like because of the Jones Act, it's very expensive produce there. And so like it's so expensive.

Speaker 1:
[37:47] What's the Jones Act?

Speaker 2:
[37:48] So the Jones Act is basically a tariff that goes on all goods that come from the states. But like, but they're only allowed to import a lot of goods from the states. So a lot of produce and things like that, like gets taxed at a really high rate.

Speaker 1:
[38:03] Puerto Rico is part of America.

Speaker 2:
[38:04] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[38:05] And to bring in food, it has an additional tax.

Speaker 2:
[38:08] It has an additional tax. So there's a movement, to try and grow more fruits and vegetables on the island. But obviously, it's climate specific and a hurricane season and this kind of thing. And so that's why you see with a lot of Puerto Rican food, you have the sofrito, which is a blend of peppers that you can then put away and you can freeze it and it's self-preserved. So it's like you have to get the tomatoes, like it tends to be more like in a can, but you have to take what you can get, you know what I mean? And the nutrients and the ingredients are there, but it's just not going to look the way that like the maha is telling you for it to look because it's not even available. And I think that that's also the circumstance in a lot of pockets in the States.

Speaker 1:
[38:53] Yeah, I mean, you think about like New York City, where the one supposed to be the greatest city in the world. So much wealth here. So much wealth. Insane wealth here.

Speaker 2:
[39:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:03] And then it's like, it's either one in three or one in four kids. It's food insecure.

Speaker 2:
[39:09] It's food insecure. And then what that does to your education.

Speaker 1:
[39:12] Right. You can't ever get ahead in life.

Speaker 3:
[39:15] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:15] If you can't have your basic needs met.

Speaker 2:
[39:18] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[39:18] So if you are a child that is hungry.

Speaker 2:
[39:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:22] How do you pay attention in class?

Speaker 2:
[39:24] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[39:24] You're worried about what you're going to eat.

Speaker 2:
[39:27] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[39:28] And it's just a cycle. It's a cycle of poverty.

Speaker 2:
[39:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:33] And you just can't break out.

Speaker 2:
[39:35] It's so difficult to break out of. And I think that that's partly why, like even as a person, like I feel like I grew up very working class. Like after we weathered the recession, we kind of had made like a nice middle class life for ourselves. But like, and then I had this like once in a lifetime, like opportunity with Olga and then TV. And then obviously like the next book did very well. And like, I can look back, I always joke like, did you have, you were raised Catholic, I was raised Catholic. Did you have footprints? Like this is like every South Brooklyn, I think it's just a Christian poem, but it's like, I was walking on the beach and Jesus came. I was like, this is beautiful. And I still think about it all the time. And I can literally look at moments where like some wild intervention happened, right? There, but for the grace of God go I like, right?

Speaker 1:
[40:23] Like, it's like, that's what my mom said to me the whole time I was growing up before the grace of God.

Speaker 2:
[40:27] Yes, like, and I, I think it on a constant basis. And so I think that why I, I look at that thing of like, like the latter, I'm like, oh my God, I was like, yeah, of course, some people go up. But like, that's a few lucky people. Like, that's like in the scheme of things. Like, it's a lot of luck. It's like work, but like a lot of luck. It's not to undermine work. But I always also think I'm like, people are like, well, I worked really hard. And I'm like, how many people work really hard? Like, my best friend's parents like, picked fruits, you know? Like, my grandparent, my grandmother was like a lunch lady. Like, you're like, they worked really hard too.

Speaker 1:
[41:00] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[41:00] A lot of us work really hard, but it's like, it's that luck that sometimes gives you opportunity. You know what I mean? And I think that that's a lot of what I've been thinking about. And the other thing people don't talk about is like, we always talk about social mobility as like, the only direction is up. But in that recession, 10 million people lost their houses.

Speaker 1:
[41:18] Wow, 10 million.

Speaker 2:
[41:20] 30 and 30 million people lost some form of not all of their job, like their hours and things were cut, decimated and set people back so much. And I think it's because it was like the masses, but not, then everything else kind of gets plugged in back, going along and the market's back and blah, blah, blah. And in New York, we were like, oh, thank God. Like, it's over, but like, it wasn't over. Because like that type of stuff, like family setbacks are like a big deal. Yeah, for sure. I think about how can we have these conversations more like calmly so that we're actually thinking about, like, how do you fix it?

Speaker 1:
[42:00] That's what would be nice if we could all speak calmly to each other again and not be so divided and not be so black and white.

Speaker 2:
[42:09] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[42:09] And there is a lot of gray out there.

Speaker 2:
[42:12] Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1:
[42:13] And that's one of the things I always love about our conversations together is like, you're really fucking smart, but like you don't ever make anything feel intimidating. And I like to be able to look at different sides and not just be like, well, I don't want anything the other side has to say.

Speaker 2:
[42:34] Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1:
[42:35] We have to be able to have a give and take.

Speaker 2:
[42:37] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[42:38] Yeah. And go back to those days when we could have a conversation.

Speaker 2:
[42:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[42:43] And be critical thinkers about what it all means.

Speaker 2:
[42:48] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[42:49] Like, yes, it sounds great to take food die out. That sounds fantastic.

Speaker 2:
[42:53] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[42:54] But how about we also talk about what it means for farmers who lost the funding.

Speaker 2:
[43:01] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[43:01] And then, OK, so now we can't get the produce that people need so badly to actually stay healthy.

Speaker 2:
[43:07] Well, you know, one of the things about the vaccine thing that we're just talking about kids and kids' needs is that I actually think, because now you're seeing measles outbreaks in a lot of places, but really, because we can't, we've never had the money or the will, like whatever side you want to take to do, let's say, like universal access to health care. What we had was vaccines to be preventative of people needing that kind of expensive emergency care, right? And so in a weird way, by eroding the vaccines, we're kind of eroding the social safety net because it's most vulnerable, it's most dangerous. It's a lot like COVID, right? It was people that were living in these multi-generational dwellings where you cannot really isolate yourself. People have other comorbidities because they are in food deserts, and then suddenly something happens and it's this chain effect, and it's actually more expensive for everybody down the road, right? So I think you're right in that there is an elitism to it, but it's also stressful because it's going to have the most detrimental effects for people that are already economically challenged, right? How do people that are in charge just generally have blind spots to the actual lived experience of some of these things? Because we do end up in our bubbles. I mean, we end up talking to people who are living in neighborhoods or socializing in neighborhoods, mainly with people that are in the same circumstance that we're in, and it's very easy to forget.

Speaker 1:
[44:39] It is.

Speaker 2:
[44:40] Yeah. Or if you never knew, right?

Speaker 1:
[44:43] I grew up in small town, West Virginia, Appalachia, very poor people that I grew up with. I was fortunate, like my mom had my grandparents there, and like we had a great support system. But yeah, I went to kids, I went to school with kids that had their electricity turned off because they couldn't pay for it. They'd wear the same clothes to school for three or four days. Their only meals would be the free breakfast and the free lunch. And back to your point of talking about, oh, well, if you work hard, that won't happen. And it's just not true.

Speaker 2:
[45:20] It's just not true.

Speaker 1:
[45:22] You know, I work hard, but I think that probably like someone, Leigh Embryx and the Georgia Heap are-

Speaker 2:
[45:28] Oh yeah, well, we've always joked about this.

Speaker 1:
[45:30] They work harder than I do and make a hell of a lot less.

Speaker 2:
[45:33] Yeah, I mean, I probably annoy a lot of other writers because like most of my writer friends like have mainly done this. Like a few people have come into it later, but because I had this whole other career and we had this business and then my grandparents did the things that they did, people were like, writing must be so hard. I was like, yeah, really? I was like, I've got to set a timer to make sure I don't sit for too long. But it feels in comparison like a very like, what a privilege in my mind to be able to live a life of my mind, right? Like, and I'm very aware of it.

Speaker 1:
[46:08] And I feel that way with food. Yeah. What a privilege it is that I have such a surplus.

Speaker 2:
[46:14] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[46:14] That I'm coming up with recipes and telling people what to cook.

Speaker 2:
[46:19] You know, by the way, you did do something when we're talking about elitism that I actually really appreciate, which is like, sometimes there are people that I follow that cook really fun, lovely things. But like they're such, they are also such ingredient bullies.

Speaker 1:
[46:32] Oh.

Speaker 2:
[46:35] You know what I'm talking about? Like they are such like nutty ingredient bullies. Like, like, like it's so like you cannot make this, like do not use canned beans for this. And I was like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know. I mean, this was in the pantry. It's like, but I do think it's like, I love that when you do these things, like you are not like snobby at all. Like, and it's like, like they're they I know. Oh, my God. What did you make that? Oh, that thing with the onion, the French onion.

Speaker 1:
[47:04] French onion, meatloaf. All that was good.

Speaker 2:
[47:06] Oh, my God. And I was like, look, I was like, they're a really good way to beef. That would be amazing. But also like your burger meat is going to be great, too.

Speaker 1:
[47:17] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[47:18] It's going to be great. It's just a great recipe.

Speaker 1:
[47:20] Yeah, I do feel and that's why it's important to me to to work with Food Bank, because I think like I am so, so fortunate to have what I do in food that I have to give back to something.

Speaker 2:
[47:31] Well, it's funny because, you know, I'm on the board of the library. The Brooklyn Public Library and it's a very similar thing.

Speaker 1:
[47:37] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[47:37] Yeah, because I just feel so like I learned to read and this gets so many people like access to books and information and it's all free. And I'm always just amazed by how beautiful it is. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1:
[47:49] I mean, when I had Iris, when she was little, the library was my lifeline. That was right after COVID when we finally were able to do things. Then I would take her to the library and all these free programs for the kids.

Speaker 2:
[48:03] Well, actually, I always say this when we're at board meetings is that I'm like, the library is one of the few places where people of all economic backgrounds go.

Speaker 1:
[48:11] Right.

Speaker 2:
[48:12] And it's one of the only things that's free and there's no stigma.

Speaker 1:
[48:15] That's absolutely true. Right. I met my best friend growing up at the library when we were four years old, at library story hour and we are still friends to this day.

Speaker 2:
[48:24] Oh, my gosh. I met my childhood best friend at the library. We were both perusing the VC Andrews section. And then we were 11. We shouldn't have been in Friends for Life yet. We shouldn't have been in that section.

Speaker 1:
[48:39] Oh, so funny.

Speaker 2:
[48:40] Oh, my God. All right.

Speaker 1:
[48:41] I want to shift gears and do a little speed round with you.

Speaker 2:
[48:43] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[48:44] About some food questions. What is your breakfast?

Speaker 2:
[48:49] Ooh, that's like so weird. I make a lot of soup.

Speaker 1:
[48:55] For breakfast?

Speaker 2:
[48:56] I make soup in general and then like, I will be like, oh, my God, I could have some of that soup. So I eat a lot of soup for breakfast.

Speaker 1:
[49:05] Why not? Are you coffee or tea?

Speaker 2:
[49:08] Coffee.

Speaker 1:
[49:09] Thank God. What do you put in it?

Speaker 2:
[49:11] I do now, oat milk. I don't know. I've been convinced, but like, I don't know. It's fine.

Speaker 1:
[49:17] You'll come back to the dark side and have some. I know.

Speaker 2:
[49:19] Come back and have some. Half and half. Oh, my gosh. When I'm in New England, because I went to school there, there is nothing. I will just go and get like the, I don't know. I have to think about doing it like I'm like, I've just got to get a Dunkin Donuts light and sweet. Like, I just have to do it.

Speaker 1:
[49:33] Here you go.

Speaker 2:
[49:34] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:34] Yeah. Are you cocktail or wine?

Speaker 2:
[49:37] Cocktail.

Speaker 1:
[49:38] What's your cocktail?

Speaker 2:
[49:39] Martini. Teeny time. Teeny time. That's what my girlfriends call it. They're like, is it teeny time?

Speaker 1:
[49:43] Do you do dirty or with a twist?

Speaker 2:
[49:45] Now a twist. Like, because of my blood pressure. The salt.

Speaker 1:
[49:51] This is the stage of life for it, right? Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. What do you eat when you're writing?

Speaker 2:
[49:59] Oh, you know, it used to be really sad. Like it was like, like just, I don't know, like I'd have like wasa crackers and some like turkey and like, and it was really sad.

Speaker 1:
[50:10] Wasa crackers are very sad.

Speaker 2:
[50:11] No, they're so sad. They're the saddest thing when I put like hummus. What were you like trying to like, You know, it was like, I think that I was like, like I was so focused and I was like, I just need nutrients. And now I actually like will make myself a nice dinner. Like, like, like, and then, you know, a lot of the time I'm by myself. So like I'll, I'll alternate. Like, but I kind of make myself anything. Like I used to have a lot of shame about, not shame, but I'd be like, oh, what a waste to cook for like one person. You know what I mean? Like, and, and now I'm like, oh no, this is kind of amazing. Like I made these like chicken meatballs with like quinoa. It was like a Greek, like, I don't know. It was awesome. It was like feta and black olives and like alamada olives. It was so good. It was like really, really yummy. And like, I don't think in like a yogurt sauce and like, I just kind of was like, this is kind of fun.

Speaker 1:
[51:01] Are you a leftovers person?

Speaker 2:
[51:03] I am now. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:05] I love leftovers. I mean, like hearing you say that, like cooking for yourself and then you get to have the leftovers.

Speaker 2:
[51:09] You get the leftovers. It's just really, really nice. And like, I have like such a soft spot for pasta. I can make pasta anything. Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[51:17] Of course, and no car bluff behind.

Speaker 2:
[51:18] Oh, I know. Exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's so good. I actually made pasta fudgeel, like the old school style. Yeah. Oh, so good.

Speaker 1:
[51:28] That sounds great.

Speaker 2:
[51:28] Oh my God. You put a Parmesan rind in it.

Speaker 1:
[51:31] That's so good. What's your birthday cake?

Speaker 2:
[51:35] Oh, you know, okay. Like what I really like to have is like talk about nostalgia. I like to have, if I can get my hands on them, and one year they made me a cake of this, just chocolate covered Entenmann's donuts. No, it's like, that's like my indulgence.

Speaker 1:
[51:56] That's like your grandmother's indulgence.

Speaker 2:
[51:58] Oh my God. No, it's like such a South Brooklyn, like go get some Entenmann's, your aunt's coming over.

Speaker 1:
[52:05] Put on a pot of coffee and get the Entenmann's.

Speaker 2:
[52:07] Go get the Entenmann's.

Speaker 1:
[52:09] What is your celebration meal when you finish a book?

Speaker 2:
[52:13] Oh, that's so good. I actually love to have a steak. I love to go and have a proper steak and tini.

Speaker 1:
[52:22] Sounds perfect.

Speaker 2:
[52:23] Or an awesomely good burger, but steakhouse burger. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[52:28] Do you have a favorite steakhouse?

Speaker 2:
[52:29] I actually am pretty open. It's funny. I'll rotate. In Providence, there was a Ruth Chris's, and I just got that was my thing. You know what I mean? Just because that was the first time I did it. We have such a weird nostalgia for these things that are the first time you did it, and Capital Grill. Oh, yeah. Because it was there and it seemed so fancy and adults, I'm like, I'm going to have a steak. Actually, I'm lying because really where I go a lot, and I go a lot with my high school friends, because we grew up in Brooklyn. We go to Gage and Tolner.

Speaker 1:
[53:06] Where's that?

Speaker 2:
[53:07] Oh, it's on the Fulton Mall. Marcy and her husband used to own it.

Speaker 1:
[53:12] You are kidding.

Speaker 2:
[53:13] It's one of the oldest restaurants in New York, and then it became like a Models and blah, blah, blah. It's so beautiful. Katie, we have to go and there's a Tiki Bar upstairs. It's gorgeous.

Speaker 1:
[53:21] Wait, what's it called again?

Speaker 2:
[53:22] Gage and Tolner.

Speaker 1:
[53:23] Gage and Tolner, okay.

Speaker 2:
[53:25] Oh, my gosh. It is like, it's actually an amazing steakhouse. And then they do a Beef Wellington for two. And so like I go with my high school girlfriends, we do like Beef Wellington and like Cream Spinach and Teenies. And it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 1:
[53:37] Okay, so Ryan and I are going to come over and meet you there.

Speaker 2:
[53:40] Yeah. Oh, it's so beautiful. It's such a great. It's a gorgeous restaurant.

Speaker 1:
[53:44] Like, yeah, well, I love it. I could talk to you forever. And I'm so glad that you came and did my podcast. I'm so happy about Last Night in Brooklyn. And I mean, I mean it. I just delight in your success so much. Like, I see you at all the fabulous things you're doing. I mean, Pulitzer Prize, Dominique. Come on. It's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[54:06] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[54:07] So I'm so happy for you with this book. Tell everybody where they can find you.

Speaker 2:
[54:11] OK, I'm on Instagram. It's Xochitl the G. It's X-O-C-H-I-T-L the G. And then that's kind of where I am.

Speaker 1:
[54:18] Yeah, I love your Instagram. It's always very thought provoking.

Speaker 2:
[54:22] Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:
[54:23] Really, really good. This is great. Everybody go out and get Last Night in Brooklyn. You are going to love it.

Speaker 2:
[54:30] Thank you, Katie. It's so much fun.

Speaker 1:
[54:38] Thanks so much. Make sure to follow, so you don't miss a morsel of deliciousness. If you like it, leave me a rating and review. Send me a DM on Instagram at Katie Lee Biegel if you have any questions you want answered on the podcast or anything else you wanna share with me. Ciao, y'all.

Speaker 3:
[55:05] Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.