transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] Welcome to The Bossticks, starring Lauryn Bosstick and Michael Bosstick. Together, they are The Bossticks.

Speaker 2:
[00:10] Fuck the Pauls. That's right. Pam Stepnick is on the show today. She is best known as the mother of Jake and Logan Paul. I was quite interested in this episode because being a mother, I want to know how she thinks about raising children and parenting in the public eye. She has a memoir called Fuck the Pauls, and it released in January 2026, and it offers a candid firsthand account of life as the first mom of influencers. We loved talking with Pam on this episode. We talked about parents navigating the pressures of social media, what it's like being the Paul's mother and public scrutiny. She was so sweet, cute, adorable, and I had such a good time with Pam. On that note, let's welcome the OG mom of influencers, Pam Stepnick, to the show. You raised Jake and Logan Paul, which means you either deserve a medal or a very long vacation. I genuinely, though, and Michael does, too, need to understand what was happening in that house when they grew up in Ohio, when you look back.

Speaker 3:
[01:19] Very different from the way it looks now. And I think I do deserve a very long vacation. Private jet, fly me somewhere, and treat me, boys, if you're listening. I don't need a medal. We got one of those a couple weeks ago. I should say we, but Utah. It was a very active household. But keep in mind, Greg and I divorced, that's their dad, when they were like five and seven. At my house, it was much more calm and serene than it was at his house. It was very full of testosterone. However, when they started picking up that camera and making really funny videos, which I thought were hilarious, that's when it started to get a little bit wild and doing crazy things like jumping out of windows and riding their bikes off picnic tables and just making chaos. I just let them do it.

Speaker 2:
[02:15] As parents, we want to know how you were able to encourage their talent at such a young age and almost water it. Because you seem to have done a really good job at that.

Speaker 3:
[02:26] Because I let them be who they wanted to be, and I didn't let any fear, and this goes throughout the theme of the last 12 years or so, is I couldn't let my fear get in the way of them doing what they need to do, and it still happens today. Like, I don't know, driving, you know, razors off razor jumps, and it is terrifying, but I trust in God and my faith, and I just have to keep that in the forefront. And so, that's kind of how it was, like you say, watering, I like that, is just letting them be their creative self, and not getting in the way, I guess.

Speaker 2:
[03:13] When is the first time that you remember them picking up that camera, and was there like a shift or an epiphany with it?

Speaker 3:
[03:19] So they were like 10 and 12, they were both playing sports, mostly football, and their dad will say he bought the camera, I say I did.

Speaker 2:
[03:27] Who really bought it, Pam?

Speaker 3:
[03:28] I did, but I think he ended up getting one right away too, because they're going back and forth house to house, right? So, you know, they're 10 and 12, they're gonna remember the camera every single time, and that wasn't all they did either. So, I think that he ended up buying one as well, but I know my dad gave us, when we were married, you know, one of those big camcorders, and we filmed their births, which was unusual, like back in those days, or like 29, 31 years.

Speaker 2:
[03:58] You let your husband film it up close and personal.

Speaker 3:
[04:02] We had the, actually the nurse helped us too.

Speaker 2:
[04:04] They put everything on YouTube, let's put the birth on there.

Speaker 3:
[04:07] Yeah, but we, see, so it's in Paul American a little bit. And what's funny is, they didn't realize it, well, Logan did, I think, but Jake didn't realize that his birth was on camera until Paul American. I had given Paul American a bunch of video, and there it was, and he's like, this makes perfect sense. I was born on camera, and he was just dumbfounded, like almost to a little bit tears, and why didn't you tell me? I digress a little bit. So when they, when they started doing fun things, it was like, okay, well, that's keeping you off the video games, out of maybe some big trouble that they could have gotten in, and I just thought it was really creative. But I had no idea this was going to go anywhere. They did start their own little YouTube channel. They followed Smosh, Ridiculousness, and the MTV stuff, and which I just rolled my eyes at. But when my kids did it, I thought it was funny. But then they got into their sports in high school, and they put that camera pretty much aside for those years. And then when Vine came out, do you remember the Vine 4-second videos, right? Those were just so fun and creative. And I really loved, because I'm not, I don't think of creative person at all. I've learned a little bit through them, but I'm not really. And so Jake was a junior and Logan had just graduated and they started doing the Vines. And then that's kind of when I knew like, hmm, this is becoming like a passion for them. I still didn't know it would be a career, but they went viral and they're making money. What am I going to say?

Speaker 2:
[05:49] It's so interesting to me that you say you're not creative because the cover to me of the book is very creative. And I mean, you must be creative to raise children that are so exceptional.

Speaker 3:
[06:01] I would say, again, that I'm kind of blessed. I say that a lot. I'm blessed. What I am is really supportive. I'm that really supportive parent in the background, that you want to do this? Okay, let's do this. You want to spill wine on your new bed because it's funny video? Okay, let's do it. Most parents would not do that. And they say no a lot. I think where I said yes a lot. And I think their dad did that too. Creativity again has been learned for me. I've learned it through watching them. And everyone asked me, why did you name the book F the Pulse? And I've learned how to use clickbait because that's what, I've logged for a year too, right? And Logan said to me, Mom, you can't name this book something boring. You just can't do it. And he was like pacing in his kitchen. And he's like, I got it. Like what? He's like, F the Pulse. And I almost fainted. Like, I can't put that on a book cover. And then I, so I'm like, let's soften it. And then I started to realize, I could soften it with Written By Their Mother, but we are in that era of people yelling F the Pulse. Like, literally saying F the Pulse. And us being able to now laugh at that, and the boys spinning that narrative off into their multi-million dollar businesses.

Speaker 4:
[07:37] You know, it's so funny, we were talking and we prep for all these shows and talk amongst ourselves and with the team. And we were talking about your family in particular. And what I was pointing out, I was like, for whatever reason, you guys have been at the center of a lot of criticism, but if you look at the careers, the boys have done a relative, they've not really had real, I don't see them harming people, I don't see them having bad messages. Clearly, they're both athletes. I mean, Logan, I mean, they both boxed two of the most famous and proficient boxers in the history of the world, are able to do that. Whenever I see them boxing, and I grew up boxing a little bit, I'm like, no, those two can, they can fight, your sons can fight.

Speaker 2:
[08:19] They're also in long-term relationships?

Speaker 4:
[08:22] They're both in relationships, one as a kid. And so where do you think a lot of that criticism comes from? Do you think it's fair? Do you think it's been warranted at times? Do you think some of it's just unfair, maybe from success? What do you think that comes from? Is it intentional?

Speaker 3:
[08:34] I think you nailed it at every piece of it, honestly. First of all, they have warranted some attention by doing some, you know, strange, crazy things.

Speaker 4:
[08:45] Clickbaity things.

Speaker 3:
[08:46] That too, but when they have done the things that they have warranted some criticism, it wasn't intentionally meant.

Speaker 4:
[08:56] When they've owned up to it.

Speaker 3:
[08:57] To hurt people and they owned up to it, and they suffered the consequences of it, and they paused, and they learned, and they found out how to be better. You know, a lot of people would have run the other direction and just went back home with their tail between their legs and they just didn't do that. They learned how to grow and be better and reinvent themselves continually. So, yes, some of the criticism was warranted to the degree. Absolutely not. I will stand up to that. I don't care what they've done. They do not deserve the degree of criticism, and it continues today. Most of it, they can perpetuate it too. Kind of what you said, do they like play into it? Absolutely. Jake's got the necklace, F the Pauls, it's all diamonds.

Speaker 4:
[09:45] Well, listen, I grew up like as a huge WWF before it was WWE, and there are such a thing as a heel.

Speaker 3:
[09:51] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[09:51] Where you got to learn how to do. So there is playing to the crowd and the camera.

Speaker 3:
[09:54] Logan is totally the heel. He walks out in Cleveland and calls everybody a bunch of blah, blah, blah, like things that make me go.

Speaker 4:
[10:00] Do you know what the heel is, Lauryn?

Speaker 2:
[10:02] I don't know what the heel is.

Speaker 4:
[10:03] Well, it's in wrestling. There's got to be a good guy and a bad guy. Sometimes the Rock was a good guy, sometimes he was a bad guy. So you got to learn to play.

Speaker 2:
[10:10] I like that in a marriage, too, if you're wondering. I'd like a heel.

Speaker 4:
[10:13] But a lot of people forget the-

Speaker 2:
[10:14] He's the heel.

Speaker 4:
[10:16] The Rock started his career as being the heel. He was the guy. Now he's one of the biggest movie stars in the world.

Speaker 3:
[10:22] In the world.

Speaker 4:
[10:24] I asked that because I wondered from your perspective, that but also how you managed that as a family and also as a mother when people are talking poorly about your children.

Speaker 3:
[10:35] It's really hard to navigate that. Again, they teach me. I have had to follow their lead with that because as a mama bear, and I can be a mama bear to the point of, I will punch your face if I think it's warranted. I have done that, but it's when you're going to hurt my kids, not because you're saying something mean, but I feel that it is really difficult to handle that. You just have to realize where it's coming from. So one of your questions, I think, it was, how do I deal with that hate? I have to go internally and realize it's coming from people that are sitting behind keyboards. They have no idea who my kids are. I know who they are. And that's really all that matters is that the people around them and the people that matter and love them know who they are. Because they are not who they are portrayed online much of the time. And I do write in the book. At the end, I thought, well, this is a little egotistical, but I did want to end it. Because there is a lot of the negative of what we've been through, their experiences, my experiences, their mom, lawsuits, FBI, all that stuff. And I, at the end of the book, wrote out literally all their accolades. And since this book has come out, there's like a whole other list for both of them. And those are the things, that's boring news, you know? Would you rather see a headline that says, Jake saved animals on the side of the road, or the FBI was at his house? Who's gonna look at that? And that you just, I hate to say this, but a lot of it does come from jealousy from people.

Speaker 4:
[12:27] Well, I guess, you know, the reason I wanted to ask that is, we have done this show and have put ourselves out in a public lane, not to the same degree for a long time. And so I'm always a bit sympathetic to people who put themselves out there and catch flak that I deem to be maybe unfair at times. Right? And I think, listen, it comes with the territory. Everybody that does something publicly or creates something like it, unless they're being delusional, that is par for the course. You're going to catch some flak. But to your point, I think some of it's just been unfair and they've done a lot of great things. Okay, as a follow up, for people with young kids, ourselves included, their children are starting to say, hey, I want to pick up a phone, I want to film a video, I want to put myself online. What are some of the things you would caution parents against?

Speaker 3:
[13:15] It's very heavily in this book because it's basically why I wrote it. It felt like a little bit of an obligation as a parent that's been through it with two of them. The most polarizing and controversial digital creators. I should put it out there because we didn't have a book. We didn't have a, like you say, Dr. Spock and all those books that you can write them until you go through the experience yourself. Like I'm not a PhD, I can't tell you all the effects of social media on the brain, but I can tell you from experience, which I think is really important. And I do think that every child nowadays, they do not want to be doctors and nurses and firemen and accountants. And they want to be either in the tech world or creators, digital creators, gamers, anything to be famous. And the Internet and fame is very dangerous. I'm here to tell you, it's really hard on your mental health. My biggest thing for parents is, and especially your kids coming up, is you have to know who they're, this is an age-old thing, right? Who they're hanging out with, who their influences are, who they're talking to online. It can't be behind closed doors. Oh yeah, you just go play your video games and, you know, have it in front of you. Put time limits, tell them what they can and can't do. Restrictions, as they get older, contracts. You want this much time, you know, to do your TikTok, or if you even want them to do that. Jake's advice would be just don't let your kids on social media. Logan has a much different perspective, but it's, yeah, you sign this contract. You get, I don't know, I'm making this up right at the moment. But like, you get all A's, you get this much time. You start to see your grades go down, you know, your time on the Internet's going to go down too. But those watchful eyes, it sounds really simple, but I know a lot of parents don't do it. Parents are busy. They have careers. Moms, dads are working, trying to keep the house going. It's time-consuming, but it's critical. It's literally critical because the mental health effects. You get bullied. You get harassed. How do they take criticism? Even how do your own kids take criticism? If you're noticing that they're really, really a sensitive kind of person, you either need to nurture that in a different direction, or I wouldn't put them on make your kid a, I don't know, what is it, creator like that. As a child creator, it's too soon. It's not okay.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
[22:48] You were the first wave of parents that basically experienced their children growing up on social platforms. Before when we were talking off air, my parents did not have to experience that because Lauryn and I did not get social media and smartphones until we got out of college.

Speaker 2:
[23:03] I was in a chat room though at 13 pretending to sext with guys as a joke with me and all my friends.

Speaker 3:
[23:10] I love this story.

Speaker 2:
[23:11] I wasn't actually sexting. I was pretending like I was using my words as a blogger before I was a blogger.

Speaker 4:
[23:19] We had AOL chat rooms.

Speaker 2:
[23:21] I'm so hot for you, Bob.

Speaker 3:
[23:24] Michael, what do you think about this group first time?

Speaker 4:
[23:27] I was in those chat rooms too. Maybe I was Bob.

Speaker 3:
[23:30] You were Bob. Okay.

Speaker 4:
[23:32] No, but we had Jonathan Hyde on this podcast who wrote The Anxious Generation. We've been talking about this subject and a lot of, I think, I empathize with parents of your generation who were the first wave, who didn't even realize what these tools were and what they were. You kind of maybe figured it out. We now have built businesses on these. I think I resonate with Jake in the way where he's saying, keep them off social media because you learn what these tools are. Sometimes Lauryn and I will go and speak at schools and colleges. What I always say to the students is like, are you using these things as a tool or as a blind consumer? If you fall on the blind consumer, Lane, then you might want to think about that a little bit.

Speaker 3:
[24:12] Cut your screen time down a little bit.

Speaker 4:
[24:13] Because a lot of the people that we know that have made livings, they've learned how to really detach and use these for what they are, which is tools and connection points. But they're not sitting there mindlessly consuming all day long. I think that's a really dangerous pit that people can fall into if they're not careful.

Speaker 3:
[24:30] It really is. There's all this comparison is the thief of joy type thing going on. You can just lose yourself in thinking you're supposed to be this way, that way. I mean, we all can do it even at my age. Like, oh my gosh, am I fit enough? Did I do my Pilates enough? Did I am I using the right makeup? Do I, you know, you can get into that and you have to. I love that you said that to the kids because if you use it as a tool, it's amazing. It's really amazing. But it also can be really, really detrimental.

Speaker 2:
[25:03] You mentioned grades earlier about straight A's. I have to ask this. Are we really, are moving forward, do you think that we should focus on grades?

Speaker 3:
[25:12] No.

Speaker 2:
[25:12] I know. This is like I have this inner dialogue with myself for like, I don't really feel that I'm not concerned about grades. Is that bad as a parent?

Speaker 3:
[25:24] No, it's not bad. You want them to do their personal best. We had this issue in our house. Logan, 4.7 student, loved school.

Speaker 2:
[25:34] Wow.

Speaker 3:
[25:35] Jake, class clown, could care less. Yeah. He didn't care. He was busy making jokes and videos, and the teachers criticized him. Why aren't you more like Logan? He then took even a more negative view towards school. He's lashed out against teachers even in the last few years. You know, like, ha-ha. And teachers still mention him in the school, I've been told. Mention Jake and Logan. So I go back to saying, have your child do what they can do best. Every child is different, and everybody, every child is communicated with different. I could say something to Logan that there's no way I could say that to Jake, and it's even today, or vice versa, because they take things in more. They take things in very differently. Logan can take all the criticism in the world. Jake internalizes it a little bit more, and it bothers him a little bit more.

Speaker 2:
[26:34] It's so funny, we have the same kind of children. I know exactly what you're saying. You have to almost make it more digestible for one child.

Speaker 3:
[26:41] Right. I call it Jake speak and Logan speak, and that's just how it is, and you have to learn to do that, and a lot of parents really don't. They treat all the kids the same, and again, I'll go back to the grade thing. Their dad was insisting that Jake couldn't play football unless he got Bs, and I'm like, he's really good at football. He doesn't care about school, and I was the same way. I was a gymnast, I could care less about school. I wanted to do my gymnastics and have my boyfriends and my friends. But so you can't put that restriction on every child, and I think that the whole school subject is another beast, honestly, because it's like we're in a, I don't know, like we're being led around to do certain things that maybe a lot of kids don't learn like that.

Speaker 2:
[27:33] If you could homeschool, knowing everything you know now, and when Jake and Logan have kids-

Speaker 4:
[27:38] The schools have changed too now.

Speaker 2:
[27:39] Would you homeschool?

Speaker 3:
[27:40] I don't know if I'm smart enough to homeschool.

Speaker 2:
[27:42] Not you yourself. If you were you right now today-

Speaker 3:
[27:46] I would send Logan to school and Jake homeschool.

Speaker 2:
[27:49] So you would curate it for each child?

Speaker 3:
[27:52] I would.

Speaker 4:
[27:53] Yeah, and I was terrible in school. I was kicked out of all school.

Speaker 2:
[27:57] Never seen worse.

Speaker 4:
[27:58] It's probably the same thing.

Speaker 3:
[28:00] I can relate.

Speaker 4:
[28:01] I never cared about school. I was always social. I always was self-motivated. I've worked for myself as long as I can remember, but I was terrible in school and I was, every teacher telling my parents, oh, this guy's a big problem, never going to make my sister straight A's. So I always felt as a student like a little bit lost because I was being told all the time that I was no good. I think that in that environment, when I look back, if I see that happen in one of my kids, I'm like, maybe it created some grit, but also was probably not great for the development.

Speaker 3:
[28:37] It wasn't great for your development or your self-esteem because you might always question yourself, am I good enough? Am I? But it does create a little bit of, I'm going to prove them wrong. That's where the title comes from. When people say that, Logan and Jake, they both want to, and Jake even more, wants to prove that people are wrong. It can create that a little bit, but it's a fine line. I mean, telling kids that you're not going to succeed, and I just don't understand that concept. I understand positivity, and you have to, again, I go back to know how each of your children has a heart to take in what you say to them. You have to know how to do it.

Speaker 4:
[29:21] As a family, you guys have obviously shared the divorce, and obviously you're very differing styles in raising the kids. Looking back, what would you change if you could change anything? And what would you tell parents now as it relates to raising their kids and thinking about different parenting styles?

Speaker 3:
[29:43] Divorced or married, because there is a difference, I feel like. I feel like I would not change anything because look where we are, right? And again, I used my faith to say God has a plan for us all, and he executes it. We just do our best. I think that as divorced parents, it would have been nice. And of course, no one likes controversy, but our divorce was very, very bad in those first formative years of the kids' development. They were like seven and nine. And I think that we could have done better if we had been a little bit more cohesive. We had the same goal for them, but we just handled it very different. But somehow the alchemy of both of our parenting led to where we are. I don't think it's bad that one parent's different than the other. Like I'm the softy, I'm the pushover more, and Greg was more the grit and the, you're a man and this is what you have to do. And he was much, much tougher on them. He was more physical with them. He was more verbal with them. And while I don't love that, I think that it's okay if your parents have different styles. I think you have to work together as parents though, and that's where the issue comes in. Because if the parents aren't seeing and getting along, that's a problem and you have to put your kids first.

Speaker 2:
[31:17] Why was it rough? And I know you talk about this in the book, but why looking back, if you could tell the audience a little bit about why it was rough in those formative years.

Speaker 3:
[31:26] Because, again, I'm a pushover and very different, and I'm a much different person today than I was back then. And I let Greg just walk all over me and walk all over us. And I finally had to get away from him to develop my own best self, put your oxygen on first.

Speaker 2:
[31:47] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[31:47] Right? So it's that type of thing. And I think that I don't have any proof of this. But I think by the age of 12, whatever your kids are kind of developing into is who their core being is going to be. And they're watching you. You know, your kids in young ages, they're watching how you two interact with each other.

Speaker 2:
[32:13] My daughter is a reporter.

Speaker 3:
[32:14] There you go.

Speaker 2:
[32:14] She's sex. She's a reporter.

Speaker 3:
[32:17] I love that.

Speaker 2:
[32:17] I cannot get away with anything.

Speaker 3:
[32:19] Right.

Speaker 2:
[32:19] She is literally, I went to the bathroom the other day. I didn't even tell you this. And I was like on the phone going pee.

Speaker 3:
[32:26] I love the reporter.

Speaker 2:
[32:28] And I opened the door and the ear is to the door. I almost fell into the bathroom because she was leaning against the door and I said to my dad, Oh, the reporter's at the door. They are like, it's crazy too. Even like even the three-year-old, they watch everything you do. It's a lot of pressure.

Speaker 3:
[32:47] No, I think it's a lot of pressure.

Speaker 4:
[32:49] It's a good point and we are lucky enough to speak to people like yourself and others on this show where it's a reminder. And I think sometimes, and you see this with some kids, like the kids reach a point of almost no return. It's like they're already set by the time they're 15, 16, 17. Like if they have these habits and these behaviors and these personalities, like it's going to be really difficult change. But in these formative years, we talk about that a lot. Like even sometimes if we, you know, like any marriage, if you start bickering or getting into some shit with each other, we'll look at each other and say, okay, we got to.

Speaker 2:
[33:17] It's always your fault though.

Speaker 4:
[33:18] Yeah. I mean, you want to also show like healthy resolution with the kids, but it's something we think about a lot just because we're aware of it. And I think a lot of previous generations maybe just.

Speaker 3:
[33:28] We weren't aware of it at all. We didn't have the internet to teach us a lot of this stuff either, right? So we didn't really know the kids were paying attention to that. And I think that is, it brings me back to your other question, like the different households. When I got remarried to David, we've been married 21 years. He is the polar opposite of Greg. He's even opposite of me. He's calm, collected, cool, treats me like a queen. And so we led by example.

Speaker 2:
[33:56] He sounds dreamy.

Speaker 3:
[33:57] He's dreamy.

Speaker 2:
[33:58] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[33:58] So we tried to show them because Greg is all, we just led by example. We didn't talk to, you know, your kids don't listen, by the way, after a certain age. I'm learning that. After a certain age, you're done. You can't, so you do your best, like now, your kids are in that age. You do your best to be your best parents at this age, for sure.

Speaker 2:
[34:25] This is a great question to ask their mother. What is something that you think is misunderstood about each of them separately?

Speaker 3:
[34:32] Recently, Jake has dispelled this myth because of Utah and the Olympics and his reaction to how much it was really portrayed in the news and in the media and the outlets, that he has a huge heart. I do think that Utah has helped people understand that.

Speaker 4:
[34:56] Because he got very emotional when she won.

Speaker 3:
[34:57] Right. Plus, he treats her so sweet. She puts that on her Instagram too. I think that's a myth. He gets in the boxing ring and he's acting like an idiot and making his opponent mad and saying outrageous things. That's an act. It's a play. He is not like that when you meet him in person. He's lovely, adorable, huge heart, always wants to help other people. People don't understand that about him at all. Logan. Logan is a very strong, powerful personality. I think what's out there in the world of him being scamming people and taking advantage and not doing the right things. I hate that word, but it is so far from the truth and it's aggravating. It's really probably one of the things that aggravates me the most about what's being out there in the world today. He is the far, everything he does, he does it with passion, wants it to be perfect. Every business you start is not going to be perfect. People don't understand that. They hear one thing and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon because the negative is way more fun to get involved in online with these people, and people just build this up. Some of the myths about prime just not true. It's not full of red dye colors or whatever they're out there saying. It's just those myths really get me because Logan has put his heart and soul behind certain things. That myth is so far from the truth.

Speaker 2:
[36:35] Pam is going to tell you guys the truth over here.

Speaker 3:
[36:38] I'm going to tell you the truth.

Speaker 2:
[36:39] You know what's interesting too about them? To me, you would think that they would be womanizers because of all the fame and the riches that they have. It seems to me that they're actually pretty monogamous.

Speaker 3:
[36:49] Yes. I'm sure they went through their phases when I was not there. But I was there a lot.

Speaker 4:
[36:54] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[36:55] It seems like they got it out of their system.

Speaker 4:
[36:57] They did.

Speaker 2:
[36:57] It's not like they're going to be 50 and single and a womanizer.

Speaker 3:
[37:01] Right.

Speaker 2:
[37:01] They could be.

Speaker 3:
[37:02] Yeah, but they could be. They have women probably throwing all that. All right. I don't want to make anybody mad. But and so do their females because they're also beautiful people.

Speaker 2:
[37:13] It's going to be some pretty grandkids.

Speaker 3:
[37:14] Yes. Well, I have a very beautiful granddaughter, Esme. Yes, she's so darn cute. I can't. I'm starting to shake because I haven't seen her since Christmas. I'm like, but between the Olympics and the book and traveling around and it's just been really hard. But having said that, they are, they want a wife, children, and a family. And that makes me so happy because they witnessed what can happen if a marriage doesn't work out. And I'm not saying everybody's is going to be perfect. Who knows what's going to happen. But they really, really want that deep down in their heart.

Speaker 2:
[37:53] That's so interesting. Michael has been off air having an opinion on that. I think maybe.

Speaker 4:
[37:58] What's my opinion?

Speaker 2:
[37:58] Just you have talked about how, I don't know how to say this the right way. You respect monogamy.

Speaker 4:
[38:08] So here's the thing. There's a lot of these things going viral lately where it's like, there's a lot of single men without children that reach older age, giving a lot of advice to young people like self-optimization, and sleep habits, and financial literacies. And it's kind of like, you know, when all you have to think about is you, like to be honest, it's not that hard.

Speaker 3:
[38:34] It's not.

Speaker 4:
[38:35] Like if all I had to do each day was wake up and like put a couple of coins in the bank and take care of my body and sleep good and maybe go on a date or two, like it sounds like a pretty easy life. I think a harder thing that I respect as I get older and build my own family and businesses, like it's a much harder thing and much more rewarding to build a family, build a life, take care of, raise children. And so, listen, teach their own, but I think like I respect when I see people that have had a lot of success kind of get their priorities right.

Speaker 3:
[39:09] Right.

Speaker 4:
[39:09] And it's like for your sons, I'm sure they could go and make a few extra dollars and they could get a few extra eyeballs. But I think a harder thing is to stay disciplined, settle down, build a family, build a life and like in statement agamas.

Speaker 3:
[39:22] They're disciplined, they're resilient, and they work harder than everyone else in the room. And that's like an easy statement to say, but they really, really, really do. They are always, always working. And I think on the monogamy end, it's probably not been easy, but that's what they want. They want that strong relationship. And I'd love to say, and I hope that that has come from me. Because I am not the, you know, TMI. Like, I was not, I'm monogamous, two people my whole life.

Speaker 2:
[39:56] Oh, you heard it here first.

Speaker 3:
[39:58] My body count is pretty low. And I really think.

Speaker 4:
[40:01] I'm sure your sons are happy, but that's the headline.

Speaker 3:
[40:03] Pam's body count is low.

Speaker 4:
[40:05] Listen, boys, two body counts, but mom, that's pretty good.

Speaker 2:
[40:08] Your sons are like, yes.

Speaker 4:
[40:09] One was dad, one was new dad.

Speaker 2:
[40:11] That's pretty good.

Speaker 3:
[40:12] They do know this. And I think, I know they like that. I do. I know. I've heard them like talk about like, yeah, that girl, she's, that's too much. It's too much. I can't do it. So I know that that's important. Logan didn't tell you to ask me that, right?

Speaker 4:
[40:27] No, he did not. He did not.

Speaker 2:
[40:29] Towns and bond, my body count is not one. I'm sorry to break it to you, Michael. It's why not only my body count.

Speaker 4:
[40:34] Yeah, but it's under 10, right?

Speaker 2:
[40:35] Yeah, it's under 10.

Speaker 4:
[40:37] See, I caught her early.

Speaker 2:
[40:38] You did catch me early.

Speaker 4:
[40:39] The numbers were going to start, I don't know, the numbers were starting to creep up.

Speaker 2:
[40:42] No, no, I was never, listen, I like, fuck who you want, I was never slutty, ever. There you go. I was not a slutty.

Speaker 3:
[40:49] There you have it.

Speaker 2:
[40:49] I kind of wish I was slutty.

Speaker 3:
[40:51] I kind of wonder what I missed. Why do I have my slut face? Yeah, I missed the slut face. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[40:56] I was a little slutty for a period, but.

Speaker 3:
[40:57] Good.

Speaker 2:
[40:58] Get it out. Get it out of your system.

Speaker 4:
[41:00] No, but I guess, you know, I think to your, like it's, I guess like to round it out, it's as I grow and as I look to examples, and the examples I want my sons to look to is I want them to look to different men that potentially could have it all, but choose to be disciplined and choose to be honorable and choose to, to kind of live in a way that I think is.

Speaker 2:
[41:24] Not gluttonous. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[41:25] And because again, like, I think it's a much easier thing to just kind of.

Speaker 2:
[41:30] Slide into bitches DMs and get their dick sucked.

Speaker 3:
[41:33] Slide into bitches DMs.

Speaker 4:
[41:34] But I think sometimes, like.

Speaker 3:
[41:36] It's really easy to do that, right?

Speaker 2:
[41:38] I can say that in front of Logan and Jake's mom.

Speaker 3:
[41:40] You can say anything in front of me. Trust me. They tell me everything.

Speaker 4:
[41:45] There's a lot of men right now, I think, taking advantage of young men, giving them messages that I think will lead the majority of those young men astray, right? Like a lot of the people kind of preaching, make all this fast money and be with all these women. And I was like, the majority of men that's just not going to happen for. And one day you're going to look around and you're saying, wait a minute, I'm 40, 50 years old and haven't settled down and I don't have a family and I like have wasted a lot of my life away.

Speaker 3:
[42:09] And you're by yourself. I can't even imagine being alone. I don't understand that at all. Good or bad, try to make something work. I mean, work towards it and having relationships. That's what life's all about.

Speaker 4:
[42:22] Yeah. Not to mention, again, as you get older, there's so many, it's so hard to just build a business, build a family, raise good kids. If every day you're with a different person, that kind of stress just seems...

Speaker 3:
[42:38] Yeah, that's not good.

Speaker 2:
[42:40] How has your son's discipline rubbed off on you as their mother?

Speaker 3:
[42:45] Wow. That's the first question, or time I've ever been asked that question. You know, it has helped me write my book because it was in vlog. When I started vlogging, Jake was like, Mom, I think you'd be really funny. You should try it. I'm like, wow, I need to bust out of my playing tennis and, I don't know, cleaning the house, and I need to do something grander. And so I did, and that helped me to develop something new that I would never, step out of your comfort zone, take a risk. And that's how the book came about too. Like, yeah, anyone could say, yeah, I should write a book. This is a great story. But to actually buckle down and do it, it took discipline. And I watched them and they amaze me. I mean, they really do. Sometimes, I just sit back and I listen to them, like on a podcast or at a business meeting, talking at colleges. And I am like, wow, I'm so impressed. And it's not, I don't feel like it has anything to do with me. I was just seriously blessed with kids who have learned and taken it all in and processed it, processed it and made it into something. So I'm taking more risks. I don't know if that answered your question, but I'm stepping outside of my comfort zone. I've always been pretty disciplined. I mean, I'm a nurse. I went through schooling and stayed on track and wasn't a slut. And I'm pretty disciplined. So I have that and it runs in our family, I guess, but seeing them take risks. So why not do it myself?

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 2:
[48:26] Eden Rock St. Barthes times The Skinny Confidential. This collaboration has been years in the making. I have been going to Eden Rock Properties for a very long time and I fell in love with the way that they thought about branding. Every single detail, they don't miss anything. It's such an experience. And when I thought about what brand I wanted to collaborate with, Eden Rock immediately came to mind. So we went down to St. Barts and we sat with their team and we conceptualized what this collaboration would look like. And so it's here. After a year and a half, it is live. The Eden Rock St. Barts Times Skinny Confidential Red Ice Roller. It's in their signature red. It has a gorgeous, like look at this, ah, silver roller. It's so beautiful. It's very summer, you know. I could see this in an ice bucket while you're on the beach enjoying some rosé or a margarita. It goes right in the ice. And then we also launched Mouth Tape. So it's red, too. So you're going to get those red lips, very summer-esque. And again, it's in the Eden Rock St. Barts branding. And then we launched Facial Towels. Everything is limited edition. It's very exclusive. Once it's gone, it's gone. And these Facial Towels are plastic-free. They don't have any formaldehyde in them. And they're so adorable to throw in your beach bag. I use them to wipe my kids' hands. I use them after an oil cleanse. This collection is so major. I'm so excited about it. And it's so fun to see The Skinny Confidential come to life in red. You can shop our collaboration at the link in the show notes or on shopskinnyconfidential.com. And if you're at the Eden Rock St. Barts property, you can also shop at the Eden Rock St. Barts boutique and the spa. Eden Rock St. Barts, wherever you are. What are the disciplines that you've seen from a micro level through them? Meaning like, are they waking up at a certain time? Like what are the little things that you see for our audience that are tangible, that you can't believe they do?

Speaker 3:
[50:29] Well, I think some of it is still the manifestation process.

Speaker 2:
[50:34] Ah, I love this. I know you're a big manifestor. I researched you. Let's talk about that.

Speaker 3:
[50:39] Big manifestor. My dad taught me, I taught them. They've taken it to new heights and new levels. And I think it's, Jake gets up in the morning, this one example, when he's in Puerto Rico, and he's honed in, camp for fighting or what not, whatever he's doing, but he goes outside, he looks up to the sky, stands real tall on a rack, he looks up into the sun, he gets his vitamin D, starts doing some of his breath work, and then goes through that ritual of mindfulness, which I definitely have much harder time being, the meditating, you know, and doing that type of thing, sitting in red light therapy in his hyperbaric chamber, that takes a lot of discipline and calmness in the breath work. Because Jake has an anxiety issue, he has a lot of anxiety, which I can see why their lives they lead, you know. And Logan is a little more carefree, I think, like, right when he gets up, but they do, and that has changed since having a baby. Obviously, you're getting up a lot earlier. But it's spending time with his family, and kind of, that's just so wonderful to see. But Logan is constantly working, which actually can be annoying when you're with him, is on his phone taking care of this and that and this and that and these and those and doing this and that. But he also can multitask, which amazes me. I don't know how he does it. It's, I don't know if it's a good thing, but, and he does it all well. So those are like two things, I hopefully answered your question.

Speaker 2:
[52:22] Yeah, you did.

Speaker 3:
[52:22] They kind of are like, wow, that's pretty impressive and pretty incredible.

Speaker 2:
[52:28] What would Nina and Yuta, is that how you pronounce her name?

Speaker 3:
[52:32] Yuta.

Speaker 2:
[52:32] Yuta.

Speaker 3:
[52:33] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[52:33] Is that right?

Speaker 3:
[52:34] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[52:34] Okay. How would they describe you as a mother-in-law?

Speaker 3:
[52:37] Fantastic. I'm lovely.

Speaker 2:
[52:39] I could see that. Your energy is really good.

Speaker 3:
[52:41] Aw, thanks. I think they feel that way. I'm sure there's times and they've been mad at me about something who isn't going to be, but I think I'm very blessed with my kids are mama's boys, and I think the girls recognize that and they like that.

Speaker 2:
[52:58] Play that clip for my daughter-in-law.

Speaker 3:
[53:00] There you go, because how your boys treat their mom, how they're going to treat you is really important. If I would have looked at that before I married Greg, we would have might had a different story. Not that I'm glad this didn't happen because it did. But if your sons treat their moms well, their mom well, hopefully that the girls that they choose are going to like that and not be jealous of it. And I do, I don't insert myself. If I'm asked, I will. But I am not that mom that's nagging over the boys and trying to get their attention away from the women. I am like supportive of those relationships. And I think the girls appreciate that. That's a great question. I'd love to ask them.

Speaker 4:
[53:52] Switching lanes, but you mentioned earlier that a lot of kids these days, they don't aspire to be engineers or pilots or firemen. They aspire to be creators. What is something after experiencing fame as a family and for your children that you would caution people against? Maybe we glamorize that kind of attention, but some things that you guys have had to navigate as a family, as the platforms have grown.

Speaker 3:
[54:16] Well, it's definitely not all glamorous. There are so many wonderful sides to it, there's also so many pitfalls and dangers out there. I think I would prioritize, like I said before, and I'm going to say it again because it's really important, is the mental health aspect. Are you able to be consistent, to be disciplined, to be resilient? You as parents or anyone else's parents who have kids that are talking like they want to do this, I think it's up to the parents to look at that child and say, yeah, they have what it takes or you know what, they don't. And if they don't have what it takes, you have to be very strategic in how you steer them away like into something else. And I can't think of an example maybe right now, but all right, you might not want to go on camera and start talking because people are going to make fun of your pimples or your funny hair or whatever. Well, maybe you say, you know what, you like music, let's try music as an outlet type thing and give them different options because mental health and faith I think are really, really key and especially in today's world. So I would also ask them if they think they could see themselves doing it, any kind of thing, whether it's gaming or having a podcast. Can you see yourself doing that forever?

Speaker 4:
[55:45] Yeah. Well, your sons have reached a level that it's not possible to turn it off now, right?

Speaker 3:
[55:51] Correct.

Speaker 4:
[55:52] We talk about this all the time. There's different levels where maybe you get a little bit of attention, but it's not so much where if you decided, hey, this isn't for me, you could step back. But if you go too far with it, not in a bad way, but if you reach the level your sons have, there's no turning back. So then the rest of your life, if you're out, you're being scrutinized, people are taking pictures, people are coming up to you, people are commenting on your family, on your marriages, on your children, there's no way around it. And so I think about that a lot because for children especially, that maybe look to a platform like that and say, hey, that's for me. It comes with a cost. And to your point, there's a lot of great things.

Speaker 3:
[56:30] It's a cautionary tale for sure. And I think you just made me think of something as parents. Point that out. Take someone like Jake or like Logan or, I don't know what other good examples there are, but...

Speaker 4:
[56:42] The Kardashians.

Speaker 3:
[56:43] I was going to say that, but I left it to you guys. But it's true. Look at all the scrutiny that they all get. Like we've been compared to that family in a different level. Like we're not the wealthy Kardashians.

Speaker 4:
[56:55] You guys are doing all right.

Speaker 3:
[56:56] We're doing all right. But it's... Look at that. Like show them the example and go, just remember, you know, think about this as you get older. Is this what you want? Your privacy is gone. It's out the window. And Greg and I have kind of decided to embrace that rather than hide from it. A lot of parents of kids that are in the spotlight, no matter if it's an actor or musician, that you don't see them out there on social media. They're in hiding. We're more outgoing and we've decided to kind of embrace it. And I think part of that was the HBO show. We didn't really have a choice. We kind of had to go along with it. And I don't mean we were forced. We were like, we embraced it. We said, okay, they're already going to put, we're already out there. Let's just put it all out there. Let's be real transparent and show people that not everything is hunky dory. Because it's not.

Speaker 4:
[57:52] I think we live in a time now where fortunately the person has a bit more control. Meaning we talked to a lot of celebrities that maybe came up in the 80s and 90s on this show or before. They were really at the mercy of a lot of publications and tabloids, and they didn't really have a mouthpiece to answer. Now, I think a lot of people can't. You can get on your own podcast or anything, but there's that. But yeah, I look at a lot of some of those people to your point, and I'm like, man, that's a lot. Can't go out anywhere without just-

Speaker 3:
[58:24] It's debilitating. Logan, I feel like, deals with it a little bit differently. I don't think, you know, they have security.

Speaker 4:
[58:33] Of course, you have to.

Speaker 3:
[58:34] Right? Jake can't go anywhere, like anywhere. They do love Puerto Rico for that though a bit because it is a little bit more toned down, and people are a little calmer, and where they live, like a lot of people have a lot of things. And so they don't look at Jake and Logan as, but then they still kind of do, but they don't bug them about it. And they don't come up to them and constantly want to take pictures and this and that. Another thing about Jake and Logan is though, they truly adore their fans, and they will always stop if they can and embrace the fans and take pictures. They're never like some of those celebrities you see, or I've seen professional athletes, just be awful to people. You know, like they're so much better. They don't come across as so much better than their fans.

Speaker 4:
[59:21] You know, was Shia LaBeouf just attacking the other day? Mike Piazza? Did you see that? There was a clip of him when he, because Shia LaBeouf just did this show, and said Mike Piazza, he would go out to the stadium for like 90 different times trying to get Mike Piazza's autograph. He wouldn't give it to him. He was going, yeah. No, and insane, like on our platform, like if people that we meet, like that's kind of the reason you want to do it. You want to connect with people, but I think you reach a certain point in security and all that. You have people that are maybe bad actors that are coming for the wrong reasons, it's scary.

Speaker 3:
[59:51] It is a little bit scary, and it hasn't happened, knock on wood too, a little here and there, but most people who are yelling F the balls, if they actually see them in person, they're like, hey, can I get a pic? Hey, or if you answer back, yeah, that's right, and then they just laugh and they're in person, they're fans. Haters are actually really fans in disguise in a way.

Speaker 2:
[60:19] It's a fine line.

Speaker 3:
[60:20] It's a very fine line.

Speaker 2:
[60:21] Where is your relationship with your ex Greg now today?

Speaker 3:
[60:26] Great. I can call him right now and say, and he hasn't said a word about the book, nothing about any of the backlash out there over it. He hasn't said a word. I don't know if he's just trying to ignore it.

Speaker 2:
[60:37] Greg, let's get a selfie with you at the book.

Speaker 3:
[60:39] Yeah. Let's do that. Well, I've wanted to, but I didn't know. I actually was going to give him a signed copy, but Logan's like, I don't know if this is the right time to do that. And I'm like, but I should. It's about him too. So despite all the past, we can still come together. Recent couple of incidents. We've come together. We've been on the phone an hour, hour and a half.

Speaker 2:
[61:02] Are we doing Thanksgiving together?

Speaker 3:
[61:04] Yes. We've done Thanksgiving together. I mean, I think Paul American kind of, that's why.

Speaker 2:
[61:10] Softened it.

Speaker 3:
[61:10] But what we are is Nina, to her credit, was like, look, you have one grandkid, and if you both want to come to Christmas, both come to Christmas. I'm not doing Christmas over here and Christmas over there. It's about our grandkid. And I'm all for that. I think Greg has a little bit more trouble with that, but he's learning and he's settling down. He's getting older. And I think he's realizing that he's gonna have to cooperate if he wants to be cohesive. And I've always wanted that. My parents had a very nasty divorce. But at the end, we did all Christmases and birthdays together, and their spouses liked each other, and everybody ended up being friends. And I think that's really important. And I do believe that we are very... still much a family. I still consider Greg a family. I don't know what he does, but I promote that. So hopefully, that just resonates and keeps resonating with them. We do still want the same thing for the boys.

Speaker 4:
[62:15] You have two children together.

Speaker 3:
[62:16] And we still worry about them the same way.

Speaker 2:
[62:18] Before you go, you have to tell us why you crossed off Paul.

Speaker 3:
[62:23] That was Logan's idea.

Speaker 2:
[62:24] She crossed off Paul on the book.

Speaker 3:
[62:26] That was definitely Logan's idea because it's funny.

Speaker 2:
[62:28] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[62:29] I think it is too. And just the whole thing is so creative and eye-catching that, if you walked past a book and it was that on the shelf versus don't read the comments, which was what I was going to name it, what are you going to do? You're going to look at that and pick it up and see what it's about.

Speaker 2:
[62:51] You know how I'm going to make you pose with me and Michael, right? After this?

Speaker 3:
[62:53] Giving the finger?

Speaker 2:
[62:54] The exact same thing.

Speaker 3:
[62:56] Oh, the exact same way. I love that.

Speaker 2:
[62:58] Let's see which one I have to be. I think I have to be Jake because of my good side.

Speaker 4:
[63:04] She wants to pick a side.

Speaker 3:
[63:05] Okay. That's good. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[63:06] After writing the book, what do you hope the main takeaways are for the book? What do you hope people get out of it?

Speaker 3:
[63:12] I think I like the fact, I'll go back to my toolboxes about manifestation, about faith, about listening to your kids, not letting your fear get in the way, realizing that success isn't final and failure isn't fatal. That's just so important. I think taking care of yourself as individuals, as parents is really, really important. I know you guys are into fitness and take the supplements and skincare. I love that. I mean, I'm so into that. I play tennis and do Pilates and I didn't put that as much in the book. However, if I do a sequel, it's going to definitely come back up. But I want people to take care of themselves and I want them to really, our generation of kids, yours and coming up, they need a lot of attention. You would think not because of the little box that everyone's, they do. They need a lot of attention and if you don't give it to them, guess where they're going to turn.

Speaker 2:
[64:17] I've heard a parent say this the other day that when your kids become teenagers, they'll shut the door on your face and you go to their room and you try to connect with them and they'll shut the door on your face and what the parent says is you have to keep coming back. Even though they shut the door, shut the door, shut the door, you have to keep coming back and that kind of gets through to them.

Speaker 3:
[64:35] Absolutely and again, my kids never did that with me. They were never disrespectful.

Speaker 4:
[64:42] I will take the door off the wall.

Speaker 3:
[64:45] That is what their dad would do.

Speaker 4:
[64:46] They will not have a door if they do that.

Speaker 3:
[64:48] You can't let them do that. That's just disrespectful and you take the door off. That's perfect.

Speaker 2:
[64:53] You'll take the door off.

Speaker 3:
[64:55] Take the door off.

Speaker 2:
[64:55] I don't love that aesthetic though, but it will work for something.

Speaker 3:
[64:58] Well, it would be temporary because they're going to learn. You can even make deals with them.

Speaker 2:
[65:02] Maybe a curtain.

Speaker 3:
[65:03] I'll let you shut the door while you're getting dressed. But you're not going to get on your phone or the internet behind closed doors. What are you sneaking around in there? I laughed at your podcast talking about the food in the bed.

Speaker 2:
[65:18] Oh, yeah. Do you do food in the bed?

Speaker 3:
[65:19] No.

Speaker 4:
[65:20] Why?

Speaker 3:
[65:20] My kids weren't even allowed to bring a glass of water upstairs.

Speaker 2:
[65:24] Butter toast every night in the bed with crunchy salt.

Speaker 4:
[65:27] I'm wiping the bed.

Speaker 3:
[65:29] I laughed so hard.

Speaker 2:
[65:30] I love to eat in the bed. What is a better pleasure than sitting in bed with a tray, eating with your magazine and your show?

Speaker 3:
[65:38] See, I don't like that.

Speaker 4:
[65:40] I need to be...

Speaker 3:
[65:40] I stand up to eat at the time.

Speaker 2:
[65:43] Bad for your digestion.

Speaker 4:
[65:45] I think it's good for you too. We had a friend the other day, they sent us a picture of their bedroom. It's two big beds next to each other, so they're still co-sleeping.

Speaker 3:
[65:54] Same room, co-sleeping. They can jump from bed to bed.

Speaker 4:
[65:57] They have their own set of sheets and blankets. Maybe if you want to do that, then you can have your own crummy bed and I'll have the clean one.

Speaker 2:
[66:04] Just make sure it's a Halston mattress. I want the best mattress. Creme de la creme, don't put some shitty mattress next to it.

Speaker 4:
[66:10] Well, we'll figure it out. That could be a solution because I can't stand those.

Speaker 2:
[66:14] Where can everyone find you Pam to say hi, pimp yourself out? Where's your book available?

Speaker 3:
[66:18] Pimp myself out. Currently, it's on amazon.com. I also have a website, fthepauls.com. It's my landing page for the book and it will take you to Amazon. There's audio, which I don't promote it. A lot of people gravitate towards audio. I didn't realize this because I'm one of those people that picks up a book in the airport or the bookstore. I still love it, but it's on audio, it's on ebook and currently in amazon. We'll see if I do bookstores.

Speaker 2:
[66:47] I don't know. Congratulations on your book, on your sons, on your granddaughter, on everything. You must feel so fulfilled.

Speaker 3:
[66:55] I am very fulfilled. I'm very blessed. I'm very fortunate, full of gratitude, attitude with gratitude and positivity. I'll stress that at the end of this is we all have to remain positive because we are in a crazy world.

Speaker 4:
[67:11] Well, thank you for making the trip. We got to thank Lucas Mack for setting this up.

Speaker 3:
[67:14] Thank you, Lucas.

Speaker 4:
[67:15] Lucas, you got to come on yourself too.