transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:11] Welcome to Pop Pantheon, the podcast where we completely overanalyze all of your favorite pop stars and then rank them in the Official Pop Pantheon. This is your host, DJ Louie XIV, reminding you to rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening to it now. Follow us on social media at Pop Pantheon Pod, buy our merch, including some of our new merch at poppantheonpod.com, and subscribe to our Patreon, Pop Pantheon All Access, where we do weekly bonus episodes of this show. You can also get the audio only directly in the Apple Podcasts app. Lastly, we have two Gorgeous Gorgeous parties coming up next weekend, May 2nd in LA at Los Globos and the following weekend on May 8th in Bushwick at the Sultan Room. Tickets for both are available in the show notes of this episode. All right, for this week's A-side, we're talking about one of the grooviest, classiest girl groups of the 90s with a slew of incredible hits that I absolutely loved returning to. This is Pop Pantheon En Vogue. Seeing a mononless cat's eye at Coachella a few weekends ago provided a stark reminder of the pain that every generation of young pop fans must endure. Girl groups, or at least girl group imperial phases, are usually here for a good time and not a long time. That said, if every generation gets the fast and bright girl gang it deserves, then the early 90s were certainly blessed with En Vogue, a sassy, brassy, sophisticated, stylish, prefab lineup of funky divas who blasted into the new decade with an arsenal of slinky kiss-off bangers, effortlessly cool presentations of girl power, a galvanizing political bent and harmonies down. And from about 1990 to 1993, and for one errant moment in the late 90s too, the ladies of En Vogue stormed the Billboard charts, re-alchomizing girl group history for the hip hop era with elegance, grace and radiating talent that has extended far beyond their short stay at the center of pop music. The story of one of the great girl groups of the 90's starts, perhaps and probably, with two men, Denzel Foster and Thomas McElroy. Hailing from Oakland to California, the two met in college and formed a band, Timex Social Club, which toured with Run DMC. But they quickly decided to disband and focus on working behind the scenes, helping pioneer New Jack Swing with the all-male trio Tony Tony Tone, before conceiving of a modern day roll group that could reimagine the Motown era's Supremes, Martha and the Vandellas, and the Ronettes for a hip hop generation. Foster and McElroy auditioned thousands of singers for their new group and ultimately selected four, Dawn Robinson, Cindy Herron, Maxine Jones, and Terry Ellis. Together, they became En Vogue. The ladies may not have known each other prior to the formation of the group, but the sound of their voices together was magic. Their McElroy and Foster produced and written debut album, 1990s Born To Sing, instantly established En Vogue's core sound, ethos, and presentation. A classy, elegant outfit who preached self-respect while flicking men away who did them wrong, but also one that wasn't afraid to cut loose, loved hip hop, and got a little political with it as well. It also showcased their other worldly vocal harmonies, with each member bringing her own flavor, but coming together as way more than the sum of their parts. Released in early 1990, En Vogue's debut single, the slinky, funky, and sassy Hold On, quickly climbed the charts, peaking at number two on the Hot 100, and topping both the Dance Club and R&B hip hop charts. In 1990, Hold On won Billboard's R&B Single of the Year, and the best single by a duo or group at the Soul Train Music Awards. Born To Sing earned rave reviews for its vocal harmonies and for its quote, New Jill Swing production. The album went platinum, won a Soul Train Award and produced one more top 40 single, Lies. Two years after breaking out, En Vogue returned with a searing single that became one of their signatures, the live and groovy kiss-off classic, My Lovin, You're Never Gonna Get It. Sampling a guitar rip from the James Brown classic, The Payback, the track became En Vogue's fourth R&B number one. It also earned gold certification and reached number two on the Hot 100. It has retrospectively been deemed one of the most important songs of the 90s, having been named one of Billboard's best pop songs of all time and one of its greatest girl group songs of all time, as well as one of Pitchfork's 200 best songs of the 90s and one of Complex's best R&B songs of the 90s. The album that followed 1992's Funky Divas mixed in even more elements from the group's original inspiration of classic soul, blues, and duo, while also branching out into reggae and rock. Funky Divas became a sensation. It was certified triple platinum, topped the R&B hip hop albums chart, and went top 10 on the Billboard 200, becoming one of the best-selling R&B albums of 1992. Divas has been celebrated as one of the defining records of the girl group revival of the 90s, named both one of Rolling Stone's best 100 albums of the 90s and Complex's best R&B albums of the 90s. Divas also produced a string of indelible hit singles, including two more top 10s, their cover of Aretha Franklin's Something He Can Feel, and the slamming heavy metal indebted protest anthem, Free Your Mind, which soared to number eight on the Hot 100. After Funky Divas, En Vogue teamed with Salt n Peppa for the laid back joint sleigh, Whatta Man, a reimagining of a 60s soul song for the hip hop era. Whatta Man became yet another top five hit for En Vogue and was certified platinum. It also served as a single from the EP Runaway Love, which capitalized on divas phenomenon with dance hall and club mixes. With Heron and Jones taking maternity leave, the group was forced to slow down during the middle 90s, a move which ultimately spelled the beginning of the end of En Vogue's Imperial run. During this period, Ellis broke a handshake agreement between the group and released a solo album, Southern Gal, while tensions began to simmer, particularly from Robinson, who claimed she herself and the girls generally weren't being properly compensated for their work in En Vogue. Ultimately Robinson, who had provided lead vocals on the majority of the group's hits, left in 1997 in the midst of recording their third studio album, EV3, in order to pursue a solo career. This eventually led the remaining three scrambling to recut some of her vocals. But just before Robinson left, the group scored one of their biggest hits to date, the smoldering AC pop rock ballad, Don't Let Go, Love, originally recorded for the soundtrack of the 1996 crime drama Set It Off. Don't Let Go was a big radio smash, helping land it in the number two spot on the Hot 100 and earn platinum certification. Don't Let Go was eventually included on EV3, which came out the year after that single's peak. The group brought in a new mix of collaborators, including Babyface, Diane Warren and David Foster. A less fun and more down the middle record, it debuted in the top 10 and was certified platinum. It produced two more top 40 singles, Whatever and Too Gone Too Long, but failed to match the heights of their first two records. In 2000, En Vogue released their fourth album, Masterpiece Theater, to little commercial fanfare. After that album's underperformance, En Vogue was dropped by their label. Maxine left the group, and after a brief stint, another new member, Amanda Cole, left too. She was replaced by another woman, Rhonda Bennett. That new trio released an album called Soul Flower in 2004, which received mixed reviews and made no notable commercial impact. En Vogue released their final studio album, Electric Cafe, in 2018. En Vogue has sold 20 million records worldwide. They have three platinum albums and two top 10 albums. They have three platinum singles, four gold singles, six top 10s, and 14 Hot 100 entries. On the R&B charts, En Vogue has six number one hits, nine top 10 songs, one number one album, and three top 10 albums. They have been ranked by Billboard as the ninth most successful girl group of all time, and in 2010, Billboard ranked them as the third most successful female R&B group of all time. It also ranked them one of the 20 most successful recording acts of the 90s. En Vogue has received two American Music Awards, one Billboard Music Award, seven MTV VMA Awards, three Soul Train Awards, and one Soul Train Lady of Soul Award. Here with me to discuss one of the greatest girl groups of the 90s is NPR's It's Been a Minute's Brittany Luse. All right, I am here with Brittany Luse, who is the host of It's Been a Minute on NPR. She's a podcasting legend. Brittany, it's so good to see you.

Speaker 2:
[09:06] It's so good to see you too. It's so good to be here. I'm really, really pumped.

Speaker 1:
[09:09] I'm pumped too, actually. I'm so pumped that I had a nightmare last night that I was actually interviewing En Vogue on the podcast, but couldn't sign into Zoom. And so I was just literally like spending an hour trying to get into Zoom. And for some reason, my phone also wasn't working. Like I couldn't text to the girls and let them know that I wasn't getting into Zoom. So I was in this like kind of anxiety loop about like, oh my God, like En Vogue is sitting there on the Zoom waiting for me to interview them and I can't get into Zoom.

Speaker 2:
[09:37] That's horrifying.

Speaker 1:
[09:40] It was scary. So I was going to ask you, you know, Russ talked to you like about a month ago and we were asking like, what would you want to do if you came on Pop Pantheon? Cause we've been wanting to have you on for so long. You're brilliant. You're such a delight. We've been so excited to figure out like what would be a great episode for you and this was one of the episodes that you brought up as a possible interest area for you. So I'm curious, like what is your history with En Vogue and like what drew you to wanting to do this episode?

Speaker 2:
[10:02] I have like no memory of the first time I ever heard En Vogue because they were just playing all the time from when I was born. Well, not from when I was born, I was born in the late 80s, but from when I was at least like a toddler. Like to my memory, Born To Sing and Funky Divas were on constant, like constant, constant. And I was just like revisiting those albums for this conversation. Like it was like, oh my God, like there'd be a song title, you know, and I'd be like, I don't recognize this song. And then I would start playing it and I would start singing it. It was like that. We're like, before I could read it, I would know the titles of different songs. I heard these songs. I heard them all of the time. And also too, like as I like grew from being a girl until like a woman, even though like En Vogue wasn't super popping, they weren't like, you know, the center of R&B, you know, whatever. By the time I was like in my like late teens, early 20s, where I was in college, me and my friends, we were like, you know what, let's run back Funky Divas. We were playing En Vogue all the time, watching their videos all the time. And like just, it really hit me, I think, as I was growing into adulthood, just how like major and stylish they were and so cool. And you know, obviously there have been a ton of great girl groups, R&B girl groups specifically, you know, that come from the 90s, especially in the 2000s. But I don't know, En Vogue had something really special that I feel like nowadays when people talk about like R&B and like the 90s, it's so trivialized, I feel like, and like emmified and boring. And they're just bringing up the same Mark Morrison or the same Tevin Campbell. Love Tevin Campbell.

Speaker 1:
[11:28] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[11:29] I love Tevin Campbell.

Speaker 1:
[11:30] My king.

Speaker 2:
[11:31] My literal king.

Speaker 1:
[11:32] My literal king.

Speaker 2:
[11:34] But yeah, people always bring up the same sort of like tired references. And I'm like, En Vogue was so big at the time, it's so weird to me that people don't talk about them more now.

Speaker 1:
[11:42] I agree. And one thing that I really relate to what you're saying about kind of like the fact of lifeness of En Vogue, because the funny part for me was like, En Vogue was never my favorite girl group and they were never my favorite 90s R&B act. Like I have so many, like TLC was huge for me. Usher was like huge for me. Even SWV was like really big for me. Like I was obsessed with Weak. But I always liked and loved En Vogue. And like so many of these songs were just like baked into my, I didn't need to be a super fan for these songs to be like part of the fabric of my existence. Like Never Gonna Get It, My Love In That Song was just like in my like bloodstream, like through my childhood, Free Your Mind, Hold On. Like these songs were just like part of the ether. And as I was revisiting it for this episode, I was thinking two main things. One, they definitely were sort of template setting for the 90s girl group vibe. Like I kept thinking, like again, TLC was kind of my girl group of this time period, but like it's really clear how much TLC was kind of like synthesizing En Vogue things maybe for like a younger crowd a little bit. They were definitely putting like more of like a teeny face on some of like the things that En Vogue was doing in terms of like reimagining the Motown girl group for the hip hop era. Even like a lot of like the skits on these albums reminded me of stuff that happens on TLC albums. And then the other thing that I was really thinking about is I was watching Coachella this weekend and I was watching Cat's Eye and I was thinking about like the state of the mind.

Speaker 2:
[13:08] Because Cat's Eye was on my mind when I was getting ready for this conversation.

Speaker 1:
[13:10] Right. Well what I was thinking about that like we've kind of lost I guess maybe in the modern girl group era is like the idea of a girl group that is like a bunch of like cool young women who are definitely like appealing to young people but also like a mature sophisticated version of a girl group. Like I feel like we don't really get that over the last however many years. Like most girl groups are like either geared like specifically toward teens or I just feel like there's like I was trying and struggling to think of like a grown and sexy kind of girl group in the way that En Vogue is. And like they always had this very clear point of view that was like a obviously like they were overtly referencing Motown and bringing that into that was like they had a very clear sense of that. But also this idea of like being both cool and for adults at the same time feels very unique to them.

Speaker 2:
[13:55] That's such a good point. That's such a good point. And I have some thoughts about how that kind of shows up in like later in their career. I'm sorry, like third album onward, which we will get to. But no, absolutely, I think that that's such a good point. It's like they were not being marketed to teens. They were grown and sexy from the jump. I mean, they had the blazers to prove it in some of their promotional photo shoots for that first album. But I think that that gave them a certain type of confidence, if that makes sense, and clarity of vision and how they presented themselves. That just, I don't know, like you said, it was so grown and sexy, like from the jump. They never had to sort of like re-brand into a grown and sexy sort of thing. Even I think about, like, I mean, obviously you can't talk about En Vogue without thinking about Destiny's Child. So in the footsteps of En Vogue, like even though those girls got started as teens, they did start off with kind of a grown and sexy look.

Speaker 1:
[14:45] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[14:46] And I really do think that like so much of that was influenced by En Vogue. You know, when we think about like SWV or TLC, even to a certain degree, they kind of also had a little bit more of like a casual kind of and cute like young and sexy hip kind of vibe. Yeah, no, it's so true. En Vogue was like grown sexy and aspirational from the jump.

Speaker 1:
[15:10] Absolutely glamorous. And I totally agree with the Destiny Child thing I hadn't exactly made the connection to, but I do think that's really true. Like from the beginning, I always have thought about like Beyonce and how she was kind of like marketed early on. And there's obviously a racialized component to this compared to like Brittany and Christina and like how Brittany and Christina were like so explicitly marketed as like teens. And even though Beyonce was like kind of the same age as them, Destiny Child always made music where like Beyonce was like, you know, again, she was dealing with like trifling men who were like fucking with her, which En Vogue is often doing as well. But it was definitely from a more adult point of view, like Beyonce and the girls and Destiny Child were never giving like, we're teens in our bedroom, like living in a fantasy, you know. And I think that En Vogue also had that energy to them. But the difference with En Vogue, which was so interesting, which does kind of connect them more to Cat's Eye, is that they are kind of like this manufactured, prefab girl group at the same time. Which I don't think I totally realized before researching this episode.

Speaker 2:
[16:05] I really didn't put together.

Speaker 1:
[16:06] They were really like put together in this way that was like, basically like plug and play through these producers. And I thought that that was really interesting because I never got that energy from them. Like they really, like sometimes with girl groups when they are that way, you're like, okay, like with Fifth Harmony or with Cat's Eye. You're like, okay, like you guys have nothing to do with each other. Yeah, exactly. Like I don't feel that. Or like I was thinking about even the Pussycat Dolls relaunch. That's happening right now where I keep just thinking to myself like Nicole doesn't know who these two girls are. Like there is no camaraderie. There is no feeling of connection between these people at all. But like with En Vogue, it always really felt like they were really sisters. Like they had, I mean, obviously there's a lot of infighting that goes on, but I felt like a true like unit and connection. And I think listening to these albums, like I think a lot of the skits are there to help kind of like do that. And also the way that they harmonize together, the way they sing, it feels like obviously singing is such a big part of the En Vogue brand. Like the harmonies are harmonizing, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[16:58] The girls could sing.

Speaker 1:
[16:59] But it really created this feeling of unity and like that they were able to transcend that kind of like prefab, you know what I mean? In a way that like a lot of prefab girl groups don't.

Speaker 2:
[17:09] Yeah, I think that there's like, I mean, it's such a good point. I also didn't realize, I think until maybe like a couple months ago, like I happened upon, you know, I'm on old head R&B TikTok.

Speaker 1:
[17:18] Sure. And a couple of the greatest place to be. What else would you want to be?

Speaker 2:
[17:22] Where else would I want to be? Exactly. And they were talking about how they were kind of like put together as a group. And in my mind, I was like, what do you mean they didn't meet each other on an Oakland street corner? What do you mean?

Speaker 1:
[17:33] That was always what I thought. Yeah. But I was like, they were just harmonizing on the corner. Right.

Speaker 2:
[17:36] I mean, I will say, I mean, A, I think there's a few big reasons for that. Obviously, it's like they're all kind of they seem to be around the same age, had similar kind of like sensibility as far as being like smart, sexy and cool. Like all four of them had like that sort of special little chic something that I think felt very unique to the group. So it kind of surprised me that they were kind of put together. But also the fact that they could all sing, but also that their voices blended. I mean, part of the reason my Destiny's Child sounds so great, especially the early albums, no disrespect to Michelle. I think she adds something very unique to DC3. But I do think that like when you hear how all the girls sounded, knowing that they were singing basically from like, I don't know, like eight or nine years old or middle school age at least.

Speaker 1:
[18:18] Like Kelly's living at Beyoncé's house.

Speaker 2:
[18:20] Right, exactly. I mean, they sound so similar because they were all, you know what I'm saying, they're all baked in the same dish. Whereas like, it's really impressive to me that En Vogue, again, all four of the girls can sing, which is not always the case.

Speaker 1:
[18:34] Right, right, right.

Speaker 2:
[18:36] All four of the girls can sing but their voices blend also really beautifully.

Speaker 1:
[18:39] I agree. And it's interesting because I do think there are kind of like, and this actually does become a point of conflict for them later in their careers we'll get to. But I do think at the beginning, there's like two types of girl groups. There's the girl group that forms around the clear lead singer, and then there's the girl groups that feel more egalitarian. And while obviously Dawn became the lead vocalist in a sense, En Vogue always felt more of an egalitarian group in terms of presentation. You didn't feel like they were there to just buttress a Beyoncé, or Nicole Scherzinger, or name your other groups. They feel more in the Spice Girls TLC mold where everybody kind of played a specific part. Yeah, so it was really fun getting to revisit this. And the last thing I'll say before we get into the chronology here is that Funky Divas is a fucking 10 out of 10. That album is so underrated. Like truly all killer, no failure, nothing but hits. I'm really excited to talk about that one in particular.

Speaker 2:
[19:32] I'm like so excited that you are so excited about Funky Divas. It's so good.

Speaker 1:
[19:37] It's so good. Kind of like an undersung 90s classic.

Speaker 2:
[19:41] No, I 100% agree.

Speaker 1:
[19:43] Okay, so let's go back in time and talk about how this group comes together. So like basically as we were talking about, this is the product of basically like a casting process that is run by Oakland based production and songwriting duo Denzel Foster and Thomas McElroy, who are like, as I'm gathering, kind of like New Jack Swing pioneers more or less. What's your understanding of like how this idea comes to fruition with these dudes?

Speaker 2:
[20:07] I know that they were like producers who were like up and coming in Oakland and had like, you know, I mean, they had the Iron Man Ear for Talent, I think about the fact that they signed Tony, Tony, Tony, which like that's a conversation worth having. The whole other conversation about Tony, Tony, Tony.

Speaker 1:
[20:20] I would love to have that one.

Speaker 2:
[20:21] Yes, absolutely. But yeah, no, so it's like, it's very clear, like, which I didn't know that connection until I started really looking into it for this conversation. But it's really clear that they really early on have a strong point of view, have great eye and ear for talent and are extremely talented themselves. It seemed like they were like in their own kind of groups or acts trying to like make it. And then they're like, you know what, let's like figure out a way to do like a girl group that's right, like reminiscent of the Ronettes, the Supremes. I mean, I love that they're like, you know what, we should try this out. It's such a it's like name it. I mean, so many countless producers have had the same thought. What if we found a bunch of like sexy, like cool women who can sing, kind of feel kind of aspirational. And what if we like produce some songs for them? Maybe that'll work. Like it's not rocket science, but that was their bet.

Speaker 1:
[21:06] They were motowning it in terms of how they wanted it to look. And also in terms of how they were bringing it together. They were inspired by Berry Gordy on numerous fronts. It feels like to me. Yeah, they were part of Club Nouveau, like this 80s group that was sort of like very early, New Jack Swing. In fact, I was listening to some of it and I was like, you know, I always think of New Jack Swing as like, just hating so hard percussively. And like this, you know, it's definitely an early iteration of it. It's not hating in the same way that like some of their production will like later on. And also the way that like we think about with like Teddy Riley or those Bobby Brown songs. But it's like that kind of like light mechanized fusion of like R&B, funk, a little bit of hip hop and pop. And you know, you can hear it on those early Tony, Tony tone records. And you know, they produce stuff for like MC Light. And so they were like definitely like percolating around. Yeah. And as you said, they have this idea to like conceive of a modern day girl group that is like basically referencing the Supremes. But I guess kind of like bringing it into like a modern hip hop context in a sense, because in this moment, obviously late eighties into early nineties, we're having this like extreme sort of reorientation of the crossover space where hip hop is becoming monumentally popular in mainstream pop spaces. And obviously New Jack Swing is like a fundamental lynchpin in making that happen. And artists like Bobby Brown, I mean, at this point, we have artists like Whitney Houston are engaging with New Jack Swing, like the big pop stars are out here. And like the thing that En Vogue is walking into that I find really interesting is that the idea of what it means to cross over as a black artist is fundamentally changing in this moment. Because prior to that, if you think about someone like Whitney Houston, what it meant for her to crossover was to like make like Barbara Streisand type ballad.

Speaker 2:
[22:46] To go into like that straight adult contemporary like Celine Dion. No disrespect to Celine, love Celine.

Speaker 1:
[22:51] No and never would we. Never would we disrespect her. But yes, that was kind of what it meant to crossover in like the earlier mid 80s let's say. Whereas by the time you get to the late 80s and early 90s, like you're having like not only acts like Bobby Brown who are sort of like bringing like a more hip hop oriented sound and having massive mainstream success with, but you're having actual hip hop artists breaking through into the mainstream whether you're talking about like Run DMC or you're talking about LL Cool J or whatever. And then obviously like soon after that you're gonna have Biggie and Tupac and like so there's this whole space that's opening up where like black musical forms are becoming the top of the pop charts.

Speaker 2:
[23:27] The mainstream thing, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:29] Which is basically more or less what they've been since this moment. So I think En Vogue is interestingly like kind of walking into a space because what was interesting about listening to their early music is like it is very hip hop forward and their affiliations with that sound are very clear even as they're kind of referencing the Motown era as well. And so like they're kind of like the perfect alchemizing force to like be the girl group face of that particular moment and like the changing nature of crossover music in this moment. Okay, so they start this audition process. Apparently like 3000 women audition for this. So like what do you understand about like how the initial four lineup comes together here?

Speaker 2:
[24:04] Okay, my knowledge of the situation is that basically Maxine, Cindy and Dawn are all selected from the auditions and they're supposed to be originally was supposed to be a trio. Yeah, interestingly enough. And then Terry, Mr. Flight. Yes, Mr. Flight or it was late or whatever, but she didn't make it to the audition on time. And then later she kind of like blew them away and they added her as the fourth member, which I mean, you know, I mean, well, we can come back to, we're gonna come back to Terry at some point. But I do think that there is something right about those four women together. And I do think that having Terry there just, I don't know, it did actually bring a little something. When I try to imagine, I mean, granted, obviously, I'm doing this all in hindsight. When I try to imagine it as just Dawn, Cindy and Maxine, it's like, oh, there's something missing. And what was missing was Terry.

Speaker 1:
[24:53] Yeah, clearly. So, okay, so when you think about that, what is it about this group? What do you think they're each bringing to it? Tell us about each of these women. What are their vibes for people that don't know?

Speaker 2:
[25:02] Okay, so to me, I think for many people, when they think about who the sort of lead of En Vogue is, there isn't necessarily one clear answer the same way. There's like a Beyonce or Diana Ross or like, Nicole Scherzinger. Yeah, or Nicole Scherzinger, like Ronnie Spector or something like that. I think it's like it kind of toggles, at least sonically, between Dawn and Cindy. Yeah, Dawn to me, okay, so Dawn has, okay, Dawn to me brings like spice. Like she definitely has a little bit of like this sort of like sultry edge to her. And she actually has a slightly different tonality than the other girls in her singing voice. There's something about her that is just unique enough to stand out and I think kind of like really express her personality. But there is also just, she does blend in enough that all the girls can, like when she's not singing weed, I don't immediately always go like, oh, that's Dawn. She's really good at sort of like playing both parts really well. But she does have sort of, I don't know, a standout look, a standout personality. And she just seems a little spicer than the other girls.

Speaker 1:
[26:00] And she thought so too, and that will come back into play later in the story.

Speaker 2:
[26:04] And that will come back into play. But sometimes it's like, I don't know, when you're right, you're right, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[26:08] And also she had a little bit of a stage mom, I was reading, basically. Did you see the story about how she was like, her mom took her to a Stephanie Mills concert and worked her way backstage and tried to find the band and was like, how do I get my girl to Hollywood?

Speaker 2:
[26:21] That is so intense. But she does give that, she does give the energy that somebody at home was like.

Speaker 1:
[26:26] Yeah, it was like, my daughter's a star. It had a slight gypsy energy.

Speaker 2:
[26:29] I was just gonna say, it's giving a gypsy vibe. I'm getting it, I'm getting it. And then Cindy, Cindy is like our pageant queen. She is the pride of San Francisco. And it's so funny too, because even before, I know Cindy was a pageant girl for at this point, 15 or 20 years, I've known this. But when I first found that out, when I was like, I don't know, a teenager or in my 20s or something like that, I was just like, it's of course, of course. She so gives that. She has this kind of comportment about her that gives pageant girl. And it just feels like it comes across so, so, so, so clearly. Cindy's obviously very, all the girls are beautiful, but I feel like Cindy wears her beauty in a very pageanty kind of way.

Speaker 1:
[27:07] For sure, for sure.

Speaker 2:
[27:08] She's like the only girl with a beveled leg on the Funky Divas cover.

Speaker 1:
[27:12] Absolutely. And also, let's just say this group needs that, because this group has a pageanty edge. There's a regality to En Vogue that I think they all have, but Cindy anchors, I would say.

Speaker 2:
[27:23] 100 percent, 100 percent. And also too, Cindy also does kind of have a unique voice, but I still find Dawn's to be a little bit more soulful. I feel like we talk about regality. There is sort of a little bit of a, there's like a little bit of a classically trained feel to when Cindy is singing that I feel like is very unique to her. It doesn't give Churchy, I mean, overall, actually, their vocals don't necessarily give Churchy, which I don't think is a bad thing.

Speaker 1:
[27:46] No, they actually love to give Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy. Yes, they do.

Speaker 2:
[27:52] He makes a company jump when he plays Reveille.

Speaker 1:
[27:54] He's a boogie woogie bugle boy of company B. We'll get back to the Andrew sisters, but there's definitely, they be going into that frequently.

Speaker 2:
[28:01] They really do. I actually think it's one of those things that makes them definitely sound like they're of a particular era, which they are. But I also think it's something that gives them a way to stand out. It's kind of like the way that Jeanne had this kind of dissonant two-person harmony that was always going on, that kind of felt really unique and of a time. Yes. En Vogue had that, but for them, it was like you said, it was like that sort of boogie woogie bugle boy kind of thing. What they really lean into.

Speaker 1:
[28:26] Even at this moment, it's like they're kind of like a history lesson in girl groups themselves. Like we've got their Motown references, we've got their pre-Motown references. They're kind of like alchemizing very explicit girl group reference. They're kind of giving us a little history lesson through their work.

Speaker 2:
[28:40] Yes, absolutely. Now, Maxine is somebody I know less about. Maxine to me is like...

Speaker 1:
[28:45] She seems like there's less about her out there.

Speaker 2:
[28:46] Yeah. She's kind of giving me like, I came in here with the group, I'm staying with the group, where the group's going, I'm going. I respect that because, you know what? Maxine's not really ever in it. You know what I'm saying? Whenever there's something going on, Maxine's not really in it. She seems to just be like she's in the group and she's about the group, she's focused on staying with the group and she's going where the group is going.

Speaker 1:
[29:06] That's also a girl group classic. I'm sorry, like the girl that's happy to be here, that's a girl group.

Speaker 2:
[29:10] Exactly, and she's like, I came in here with the group and I'm going to take it to the end of the line. And I appreciate that because-

Speaker 1:
[29:15] I kind of think that is giving Michelle a little.

Speaker 2:
[29:17] Okay, I was gonna say-

Speaker 1:
[29:18] Michelle's very happy to be there. And I think Michelle herself would say that. She'd be like, I am so happy to be here.

Speaker 2:
[29:24] Yes, she would. She totally understood, I'm gonna go into Destiny's Child and I'm gonna just focus on whatever they tell me to do and get it done because that's what success in a girl group really takes. Obviously, Beyonce is Beyonce.

Speaker 1:
[29:36] Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2:
[29:36] No more needs to be said. But still, she still brings out Destiny's Child because she knows she's a member of a girl group until the day she dies.

Speaker 1:
[29:43] 100%.

Speaker 2:
[29:44] And that's how a girl group succeed is, you can have one foot out, but you always have to have one foot in.

Speaker 1:
[29:48] And when that synergy goes away, the drama ensues, as we know.

Speaker 2:
[29:52] That's when the drama ensues and that's when the group falls apart. But yeah, so that is Maxine. And then Terry, I like Terry. I think Terry kind of has, okay, how do I put this? Terry is to me also, okay, I think she has like kind of a unique, like, I don't know, personality flavor I kind of like about Terry. And vocally, obviously, she's a beautiful singer. I think, though, that sometimes Terry, and maybe this is due to how she kind of came into the group, right, where she was that fourth edition. Sometimes I felt like Terry thought she was bigger in the program. Sometimes I thought that Terry thought she was bigger in the program, but that's not necessarily, that is really not meant to be shade. That is just going off of some things that happened later in the group that kind of destabilized how they were able to relate to each other.

Speaker 1:
[30:36] Are you saying Terry is the chaos agent of the group?

Speaker 2:
[30:38] I'm not saying that Terry is the chaos agent of the group. I will say, though, that there were times when they were trying to renegotiate their contract, and then Terry would kind of go off and try to do her own thing. I mean, that all has to do with supposedly, Terry was like dating this guy who was at the label, and it was just like, well, it wasn't coming together. But I like Terry. I think Terry has sort of like, she was like the Southern girl.

Speaker 1:
[31:01] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[31:02] Kind of sweet, sassy, beautiful, beautiful voice. And I will say, I mean, understandable, there were long periods of my life where I thought that she and Holly Robinson Peat were sisters.

Speaker 1:
[31:10] Oh my god. Oh my god, I never even thought of that. I can totally see why you thought that. That's really funny.

Speaker 2:
[31:15] Yeah. But I mean, yeah, when I think about Terry, I think that she had, to me, I still wouldn't necessarily think of her as one of the lead just simply because Cindy and Dawn sang so many of the lead vocals. But I think that Terry was just a really strong presence in the group just from like a, and like I said, vocally, obviously, all the girls were incredible. But yeah, she had sort of like her own individual like attitude that I thought was really cute.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] I agree. I love that summary. That really gives us a vibe. One thing I was thinking about too is like, a lot of geographical representation here. We have our California girls, we have our East Coast girl, we kind of have our Southern girl. And also I was thinking about like the idea of like the four versus three visually, it doesn't allow for there to be a center. Like if there's three, someone's got to be in the middle. But like I think part of like the egalitarian vibe of En Vogue, even as you said, like obviously Cindy and Dawn are like doing a lot of the lead vocals. Like I think the visual of the four, cause I also think about this with Destiny's Child, like when there was four of them, there was one thing, but then once there was three of them, like that was when Beyonce became even more inevitably obvious. I mean, not that she wasn't always obvious, but like I think the four visual, and like when En Vogue becomes three, cause they do at some point, like it does kind of throw off visually the vibe of like what makes them iconic. I think, I think like they kind of need to be four.

Speaker 2:
[32:28] I think they kind of need to be four, and they be trying to be four, but sometimes it doesn't always work out.

Speaker 1:
[32:33] There were times they really wanted to be four, and they just couldn't be four, and that was just what it was. They tried many things to be four, and they were often different threes trying to be four.

Speaker 2:
[32:41] Oh my God, now I'm sitting here, I'm like, is this where flow is like?

Speaker 1:
[32:45] Oh, wait, they need a four.

Speaker 2:
[32:46] Is this where flow is? I'm like, do they need a four? Because they don't really have a clear lead.

Speaker 1:
[32:50] Right.

Speaker 2:
[32:50] And I mean, I love flow. Me too.

Speaker 1:
[32:52] Big flow fan. And I think flow probably loves En Vogue.

Speaker 2:
[32:55] I think they probably, I think you're absolutely right. There's a lot of that.

Speaker 1:
[32:58] Yeah, I can really see that. Okay, and then the other thing I wanted to talk about is like how this name comes together, because the name En Vogue is such a perfect name for them. Like, I really feel like in terms of just, again, like I guess maybe I'll just ask you, A, how do they land on this name, and B, what do you think the name conveys about this group that's like core to them?

Speaker 2:
[33:15] Okay, so what I know about how the name came together is that they originally wanted to be called, well, they at least decided upon Vogue before En Vogue. And something about Vogue just feels like it's bringing to me, if that makes sense. It does not feel like particular, it's so funny too, because all they did was just add like an article, En Vogue. But like, it just, Vogue on its own, it just feels so like, you know what I mean? It feels like it's trying to like kind of ride the name of the magazine for some reason again, En Vogue does not feel that way to me, it feels like a totally separate phrase, again, doesn't make any sense to me. But then there was another group that already had that name, and so they weren't able to use it, and so they were like, what about En Vogue? And it's just perfect. It's like, it goes from being like Vogue, which could mean anything kind of to like, we're in style. And again, these girls have the looks, like the sexiness and the style truly to match. They kind of reminded me a little bit, well, okay, they kind of reminded me, I'd say by the time Funky Divas came along, when the girls, I think their sort of personalities really started to assert themselves. They kind of feel like, and like a Jodie Watley kind of mold to me.

Speaker 1:
[34:15] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[34:16] Like a lot of people don't think of Jodie Watley as like a fashion girl, but she's like a huge fashion girl. If you go and look at the things that she was wearing, like especially, I mean, always, but especially when she first came out, it's like, oh my God. Like, I mean, she was dressed down. Right, right. And like the fly as shit. But yeah, I think of them sort of in that mold of like this really sexy, refined, classy, real. And En Vogue, that name just says it all to me.

Speaker 1:
[34:41] Sleek is a word I thought about a lot. You know what I mean? Like sophisticated, sleek, high brow, fashion, elegance. You know what I mean? And also I like your thoughts on the article edition because it's like En Vogue also conveys like we're of the moment, but we also are kind of like this eternal idea of glamour. Cause you think about like Vogue conveys eternal glamour, right? Like because Vogue magazine and the idea of Vogue, whatever, like kind of has all of these different meanings to it, the Madonna song, the ballroom culture of the whole thing, whatever. But then En Vogue also means like you are of the moment. You are the zeitgeist. You are the thing. And I do think En Vogue in their peak era work really was En Vogue. Like they were of the moment. They were like taking the girl group into the early nineties in a very specific way. Like they were, as I mentioned earlier, kind of like resynthesizing girl group history for the hip hop era. And I think that that is a perfect encapsulation of what it meant to be En Vogue. So really perfect name for them. Like you really get the whole energy from it. So how does Born To Sing, their debut album come together? Like what is the vision when we talked about the idea that Foster and McElroy like want to do like Motown girl groups for the nineties? Like what is the vision for this? And I guess maybe let's talk about that as it sort of is conveyed through their debut single, which is called Hold On. Like how does this song sort of present the vision for En Vogue?

Speaker 2:
[36:11] Hold On is a perfect first single for this group, because it really lays out what their sound is going to be, or what their signature sort of sound is going to be.

Speaker 1:
[36:22] For sure.

Speaker 2:
[36:23] It's got this jazzy kind of a housey hip hop groove to it. And then their vocals kind of, they provide sort of the perfect sort of mellow, but funky bed for their vocals to kind of come blaring through. And I mean, I think about the video. Oh my god, that video.

Speaker 1:
[36:41] It's iconic. I mean, also, let's talk about the intro to the song because they start the song with a full acapella of Loves Loving You by The Miracles. The thing about En Vogue is like the singing and the harmonizing is like, they want that front and center. And it's obvious why because they sound fucking amazing. Every single time they record, like even on their weaker songs, like they always sound so good together. And the harmonies are so thoughtful and tight and like well-constructed and well-sung. So I think it's just like, again, if we're talking about, hold on is like the perfect entree point to this group. The idea of starting on this acapella intro is just like so perfect to me. And I believe Cindy and Terrier leading that acapella intro, interestingly enough, and they sound so good on this song. And then it drops into, as you said, like this kind of like groovy, sexy, you know, a phrase that came up that I had totally forgotten about, the New Jill Swing. Apparently it was like a phrase that they got like-

Speaker 2:
[37:53] I did not know that.

Speaker 1:
[37:55] We had to gender it because it was the early 90s and we didn't realize that we didn't have to just let them, whatever, just be New Jack Swing, they didn't have New Jill Swing. But yeah, it's so like, I love how like sultry and like sassy it is and the sort of searing, but without ever getting like kind of two in your face. Like they're sleek and cool at the same time. You know what I mean? Like they're kind of like cataloging some of like their displeasure with a certain guy and they're being seductive and all of these different sort of like preaching honesty and golden rules and like setting forth terms. I mean, it all feels like so cool. Like there's something very like like it's preeminently sleek and cool and groovy and sexy all the time. Like it just radiates that energy.

Speaker 2:
[38:33] It's so true. And also, too, I mean, like there's obviously songs that they have on this album and on subsequent albums that are about like nursing a heartbreak and kind of going through it. But I think it's notable that the message of this first song is kind of like, get them in line, like don't get played.

Speaker 1:
[38:49] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[38:50] That feels also like Destiny's Child is so in that, is so in that lane for so much of their, I mean, pretty much their entire career, but so many of their albums are just about like, don't let a man play you, don't get played. Know your value, know your worth, get your life together. Don't get fooled by these men. I think it's such a strong, it's just strong, sort of like so 80s, so 80s. Like, you know, like women's pop empowerment. Respect yourself.

Speaker 1:
[39:19] But like respect yourself because like men are dogs. Like that's like a big, that's a big girl group and En Vogue theme, right? Like, and one thing that was interesting about this song, there's a big En Vogue template is like, lies and trust is like a big theme. Like, are you being lied to? Are you being played? And the other thing that I was thinking about is like, the way that they convey that through this song, which I think speaks to what we were saying earlier about kind of like their expert tethering between like, being cool, feeling youthful, but also feeling like appealing to adults is they kind of have like big cis vibes, like they're imparting wisdom. Like, you know, like the song begins, ooh, my first mistake was. Do you know what I mean? Like this idea of like, I've been there and like, so I'm going to tell you younger girls out there, like don't make the same mistakes as me. Like, don't waste your time fighting. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[40:14] Like, even those opening lyrics of like, you know, I had to have him morning and night. Like, I don't know. I mean, I have no idea how a younger person might reflect on those words now, but that to me felt very like of the time of like, sort of the 70s, 80s of like way of phrasing, like I wanted to have sex with this guy all the time. I wanted to be with him. Like I was like insatiable for this person. Again, it feels like both like that sort of like sexy class. Like vibe that they have. But also like again, it still is grown. It's like no shade to Janet, but we're not gonna be like, let's wait a while. We're like, no, I wanted this guy all the fucking time and I got played and I'm gonna tell you how not to be played.

Speaker 1:
[40:55] And it's like kind of sexually empowered. Like I like the idea that they're sort of like, you know, without being like crass, and it's fine to be crass obviously. Like I love my crass pop girl. I am crass. And you know, it's fun to be just a straight up ho sometimes, let's be honest. But I think that there's something like very perfectly, like, if there's something nice about kind of like taking the idea of like the, because when I think about Diana Ross, right, I think about this like the paragon of elegance, almost to the point where she almost felt like she was being like hemmed in. I think she would say that during Motown, like where it was like the pressure on her to be this like perfect paragon of femininity. Obviously she became like the most successful black woman in music to that point. And there was a lot of pressure on her in that regard. But I think there's something like amazing about like this group going like, we can be that and we can also be like sexually empowered. Like we can own our sexuality, we can be voracious in this way without losing our sort of veneer of sophistication. I think that's like a very 90s pop feminism trope, right? So like they can have the voracious appetite and at the same time be at, you know, these kind of classic divas, like these classic like mid-century divas that are like glamorous. And I just love that combination of things. I interrupted you about the video, but tell us what the video is. Oh my God, I watch the videos so much. The videos are really important.

Speaker 2:
[42:07] The videos are so good.

Speaker 1:
[42:07] And they have a very unified, like there's a certain vibe that a lot of them evoke.

Speaker 2:
[42:14] I mean, again, it's like, it's very, like they are grown, sexy, stylish, and they have a point of view. They have a visual, they all have a visual point of view. It's very clear that these are extremely stylish women who are just very fucking cool. And this video, like, it's very, it's very late 80s, early 90s. So you got this.

Speaker 1:
[42:33] Yes, absolutely. It's a little janky. Their videos get a lot more, like, high-end this time of the year.

Speaker 2:
[42:37] And you can see that they were going for something. Like, even though, like, their, like, taste is kind of cutting through the sort of, like, late 80s, early 90s aesthetic noise. And all of the women are wearing these, like, sleek spandex dresses, like mini dresses with, like, heels. And I remember watching these videos, like, this is around the time, like, American Apparel was really hitting. I went to an HUCU, I went to Howard University. This is like 2006, 2007, 2008. And we were like, I remember watching this video and we were both like, it's time for us to get a turtleneck. One of the women has, like, a long sleeve black spandex mini dress. It was perfect. And so I remember, cause my friend Tanisha also, Lord have mercy, she used to work at the American Apparel office. So we would all go to American Apparel and use her discount, which would-

Speaker 1:
[43:21] American Apparel was an era.

Speaker 2:
[43:22] It was an era.

Speaker 1:
[43:23] And sometimes I do miss it.

Speaker 2:
[43:25] Listen, I miss being able to be like, I'm going out tonight and get a spandex dress and just going in and grabbing it and leaving. But like, I remember, like, I spent a lot of time in the clubs that played hip hop and R&B and stuff like that. But also I was a part of what I guess is now called Indie Sleeves and that scene as well. And I like totally understood where the spandex dresses were coming from in the Indie Sleeves way. But something about watching En Vogue in like 2007, in this video specifically, I was like, oh my God. And then I went to Lomons and bought some Black Pat leather pumps and I had my little spandex turtleneck mini dress and my little high messy bun type thing. I was literally trying to look like En Vogue. And I don't know if everybody at the club got-

Speaker 1:
[44:10] You were pulling it off. Were you pulling it off?

Speaker 2:
[44:13] I was pulling it off. This was my look at the time. I was pulling it off. Yeah, I mean they had such a specific sort of stylish, fashionable, they were very En Vogue point of view that it still resonated for me and my friends like almost 20, 15, 20 years ago.

Speaker 1:
[44:30] It's kind of eternal. It's kind of eternal chicness. The little black dresses, it was both of the time and yet it's like kind of eternal chicness. Like you could put on these outfits and like walk around right now and like everyone would think you were short and boot. You know what I mean? Whereas you look at groups like TLC in this period and you're like, you look like the nineties and you look like love you girls. Like in their first album looks like you look like they look ridiculous in a great way.

Speaker 2:
[44:54] See how that works out.

Speaker 1:
[44:55] Yeah, right. Like in like the big baggy clothes. I'm like, that's what I'm saying. Like En Vogue chic, eternally chic. And also very formations in the video. Like they're very clear. Like the shots of like, I think it's Dawn maybe out front. And then there's like the three of them kind of like huddled behind her, like doing the harmonies. Like they're very like clear on kind of like creating visual formations of like how the girl groups can like look as you stare at all four of them like and emphasizing the harmonies, like seeing them together. The video is so great because it's sort of janky, but it's like got such a clear point of view as you're saying like you like they're laying it out for you. So okay, this song is a massive hit. It goes to the Hot 100 number two slot. It's a number five hit in the UK. This is like a big entree point for them. And it's obviously the opening salvo to their debut album Born To Sing. What are some of your other favorites on this record? And like, what does this album sort of lay out about other En Vogue templates or how does it build on Hold On's template?

Speaker 2:
[45:47] Oh my god. Okay, I like Hip Hop Bugle Boy.

Speaker 1:
[45:51] Hip Hop Bugle Boy is so funny. I'm sorry, like.

Speaker 2:
[45:53] It's so fun. It's so fun. Also, I used to listen to it all the time when I was a kid, but I didn't really, I think, put together, I mean, I didn't know what the Andrew Sisters were when I was like four.

Speaker 1:
[46:15] When you were four, you were like, yeah, oh my God, they're making such an intelligent connection to post-war girl groups.

Speaker 2:
[46:21] I didn't know what they were, but yeah, I was listening to it recently, and they were like, you know, the Andrew Sisters, and I'm like, why would this come up now? But it works, but it totally, totally, totally, totally works.

Speaker 1:
[46:35] It's the harmonies, the Andrew Sisters, those girl groups, like they were all about kind of like acapella harmonizing, like, and I think that they are trying to say that they're connected to that history. And I think there's a really interesting, like racialized element to being like, we're standing in all girl group lineage, and there is one thing we're going to talk about is En Vogue's like extraordinarily like late 80s, early 90s kind of version of protest music or like political music, like they have a very like post-rhythm nation approach to like moving beyond. I feel like there was, obviously there's one song in particular that I have in mind that we're going to talk about in the next record. That's all about kind of like, you know, we got to move beyond race. We got to move beyond color lines. Like that's always like a big, that's a big theme. That was very, that was all, I mean, Janet's listen, obviously a massive influence on a lot of things, but like the whole rhythm nation worldview of like, you know, we have to move beyond this, right? Like this kind of like, you know, put your fist up, but it's like racial unity. It's like United Colors of Benetton Corps protest music. But I do think there's something interesting about them sort of being like, we're referencing all different types of girl groups. Like we're doing the Supremes, we're doing the Andrew Sisters, you know, we're bringing it all together here.

Speaker 2:
[47:48] Yes. I also, what's the other one? There's another one. What was it? Oh, Time Goes On. I love that song. I love, love, love, love that song. It's kind of like, it's a little, it's a little silly, but also like it starts off and you're listening to you're like, this is kind of silly. And then you're like, oh my God, this is actually so good.

Speaker 1:
[48:12] One thing that was really interesting to me too is like, they love skits.

Speaker 2:
[48:15] Love skits.

Speaker 1:
[48:15] The album opens up with this like kind of like a skit where they're kind of like in a bar, like looking for men, like they want them to be handsome, but intelligent too. Like obviously.

Speaker 2:
[48:26] It's so Destiny's Child Apple Pie album.

Speaker 1:
[48:28] Right.

Speaker 2:
[48:29] It's so that. Wait, here they come, here they come.

Speaker 1:
[48:51] But it's also creating this feeling that I think really good girl groups do of women coming together to protect one another, to be a group, to present a unified front to the world. It gives you a sense that they're really friends, that they have this true relationship with each other. I think the skits actually play a pretty important function in making us believe that this prefab girl group is a girl gang of friends that really do respect and love each other and hang out and have a camaraderie. And it really helps sell that idea to me. I don't know, I feel like it's a really effective motif. The other songs I wanted to make sure we talked about are Lies, which is a pretty big hit. And again, kind of gets into this thing that they're really into of like, well, in this particular song, actually gets into the political thing where it's like they're drawing connections between like how like men or dogs.

Speaker 2:
[49:48] Men lie, but society lies.

Speaker 1:
[49:49] Men lie, but also politicians lie. Yeah. And I feel like this is very core to En Vogue and their version of pop feminism is, we won't let ourselves be the victim. Like we are going to empower ourselves to be smarter than the lies that like men and society are telling us. And I also just think it's like this very cutely kind of ambitious thing to be like, we're not just making this album about male, female dynamics, which is very common in most pop and R&B music. But they also have this, I think, they take it to the next place even in this early music. And again, they will deliver on this further in future music. But they have political ambitions. I find that kind of interesting. It'd be impossible to think of Cat's Eye making a song that was trying to make reference. No offense to Cat's Eye, love them. Or Fifth Harmony or whoever. I feel like there's this certain strain of like, okay, I'm like, wow, you guys are, you're going for something here. They're trying to make connections between romantic deviance and the way that the global political sphere is also lying to us all the time.

Speaker 2:
[50:50] No, but there is something that's so, there's something that's very ambitious about that, something that's very 90s about that. And also it does kind of like, it kind of gives us a clue into the idea that like, you know, one of the big things, I think that like McElroy and Denzel Foster were looking for were like, they also wanted the women to seem like intelligent.

Speaker 1:
[51:11] Of course.

Speaker 2:
[51:12] And I do think, and they actually all did, like they all came off as like smart, For sure. And sexy, and cool. And I do think that like, if they didn't seem like, even though the song like, yeah, men lie, politicians lie, the world's full of lies. There is something kind of silly about that on its face, but I think they're able to sell it precisely because they seem grown and kind of smart.

Speaker 1:
[51:34] Absolutely. And I think like a big thing they're putting across is like women can be like smart and sexy. And like, I feel like that their messaging is really like uplifting. Like I would imagine that if I was like a parent, like I'd want to listen to this myself and I'd be okay with my kid listening to it. Like there's something really-

Speaker 2:
[51:51] That's how, literally, that is how I think we ended up listening to En Vogue all the time. My parents were, they could only listen to so much Raffi. Okay. So we needed something else. And this was very like, had just enough edge, but it was still kind of like, he seemed like young, like nice level headed.

Speaker 1:
[52:06] Absolutely. And like, you know, the beats are hitting, you hear the New Jack Swing, you hear the hip hop, like they're into that. They even like break into raps at certain points on these songs. But at the same time, like this is respectable, they're wise, they're dispensing good advice. Another song that really jumped out to me is the song Part Of Me. It's kind of like this like quiet storm, like sexy track, but it's like also about how they're like into God and they're like religious, which I think is like kind of like-

Speaker 2:
[52:48] That, I mean, which is like, that's an R&B girl groups table. 100%. You gotta have a Christmas song and you gotta have a song about God.

Speaker 1:
[52:54] You gotta be into God. It's like we're grown and sexy and we go to church. Like, let's just be clear about that.

Speaker 2:
[52:59] Part of being grown and sexy is going to church after the club. I'm serious. Like, I mean, two can play that game, they've collated out. This is what it's about.

Speaker 1:
[53:07] What do you think they're so, okay, this is another song where they're getting into like, they're talking about like careless whispers of a nation that somehow got trapped in the dark. Like they're getting into this like really political stuff, like fear in the world, grief and misery. How much real time is there? They ask. I'm like, girls, if you only knew what was going on now, like you would have been.

Speaker 2:
[53:24] I know, I'm like, what would you have to say about that?

Speaker 1:
[53:28] I kept wondering, like, what are they so, like, what do you think in like 1990, like they're so stressed about exactly?

Speaker 2:
[53:34] Okay, I think, okay, so I'm going to bring this up because this makes me think about something that I think encapsulates the entire album, both in song, theme and visuals. Yeah, you know, there's like that sort of like pop culture framing that like a decade doesn't know really what it is until the second or third year. So the 90s wouldn't have been defined until like 92 or 93. And I think that this album, I think it was 1990 or 1989, yeah, 1990. I think that they like are still sort of in the 80s moment and also too, when you think about like how much things changed in the 1990s, thinking from a Black American perspective, I think a lot of people think about the 90s as at least two major cultural temples to me, or maybe three that sort of like kind of define the 90s are Rodney King in 1992 and all of like the Los Angeles rebellion after that. So that's one thing.

Speaker 1:
[54:23] Which is huge, but still has yet to happen.

Speaker 2:
[54:25] Yes, exactly. Still has yet to happen. I think about the election of Bill Clinton to the presidency in 1992, which huge still has yet to happen. That also kind of like had a sort of, you know, obviously we know how it went, but it kind of brings this, there's this optimism that a lot of people had around Bill Clinton coming out of George HW. Bush. And then also to like the mainstreaming, like the real mainstreaming of not just hip hop, but gangsta rap specifically. So all of those things to me feel like that is really where, at least from a black culture perspective, the nineties, I think really starts to set in, or like the tone of the nineties is kind of set with those things and they're all related. But I think that like all of those things have yet to happen when this album comes out in 1990. So I think that they're still kind of like reflecting on the 80s. And of course, again, thinking from sort of like a black American cultural perspective, the 80s were defined by like, you know, gutting of the social safety net by two Reagan administrations and also the AIDS epidemic and also the crack epidemic. And so I think that like, there's like a sort of vague middle class, again, not saying that that's how necessarily all these girls came up, but there's like, I think a sort of like vague middle class sentiment in this music kind of like, you know, things are like acknowledging things are rough, not necessarily getting into specifics in any way that might trouble their debut album. Totally, totally.

Speaker 1:
[55:45] Yeah, I love all that context. And it really helps situate because I think that like one thing that I kept clocking about their sort of presentation of Young Womanhood as like We're Smart, We're To Be Respected does feel responsive to either like, again, thanks to Rap hadn't quite totally taken over, but I think like there was early seeds of this idea of like women being disrespected potentially in certain black musical forms. Like, and I do think there is like a response movement that happens to that within other like black female acts at a certain point where it's like, why I mean, we talk about what TLC was wearing when they came out, right?

Speaker 2:
[56:21] Like part of that is even if the women aren't like, you said, even if they're not explicitly being disrespected in the music, when you think about like the visuals of a lot of thinking about like two life crew, you know, things like that, we know the visuals of these groups are like Sir Mixlot or something like that. The women are being objectified even if they're not being outright disrespected in the lyrics, like the visuals don't really give a lot. And also to thinking about like stereotypes and thinking about movie like Jungle Fever, you know what I'm saying, where you've got Cali Berry playing this woman who is addicted to crack. And that role is kind of meant to kind of, I think, appears to a certain degree, a stereotype about black women who, you know, are using drugs and possibly engaging in sex work. But I think that that there's like a specter of these sort of like cultural stereotypes that are out there that I think that their image is kind of like meant to counteract to a certain degree, even if they're not explicitly saying that.

Speaker 1:
[57:15] 100% of them will only become more of kind of counter-programming to that as, as we said, like by the time the second writer comes out, and like Dr. Dre is blowing up, and Soup Dogg is blowing out, like all of a sudden, they come to represent this like vision of kind of like black female elegance and sophistication in the face of like, you know, there was so much backlash from all sides related to the way that like gangster rap tropes metabolized to our culture. Like that became like a humongous cultural flashpoint, you know. And then, of course, like when artists like Little Kim and female artists that were owning sexuality and sort of operating more within the confines of that universe in a different way. Like there was also this huge sort of like, there were so many different like countervailing forces of like how womanhood should be presented or what it meant to be respectable or like what it meant to present sexuality in a way that was empowered versus demeaning and all of that kind of stuff. Okay, so this record is a success. It peaks at number 21 on the Billboard 200. It goes number three on the albums chart. It goes platinum. And one question I just want to ask you before we move into talking about there's kind of like peak huge 1992 record Funky Divas, which we previewed earlier is just like an absolute tour de force. What do you think? Like are there intra group issues that start to form early on as far as you understand it or are most of the tensions that arise in this group coming kind of like later in the 90s?

Speaker 2:
[58:31] Okay, I mean, listen, you might have done more research on this than I have. Get ready for this episode. My understanding is that things seem to be like, I think, moving pretty well. Especially when we're thinking about Born To Sing, there's opportunities for Terry to shine, there's opportunities for Dawn to shine, opportunities for Cindy to shine. And to me, they kind of seem like they're presenting more as an overall group. Although, Dawn is a little spicy. Sometimes you can look back at press photos and see that Dawn's the only one with her legs all the way out, or Dawn has the shortest skirt or the lowest cut, whatever. But even thinking about the way that they sort of present themselves, I think that so much of a girl group is, especially when you don't have a clear lead person or person who's clearly put forward as the lead, there is a lot of presenting yourself as a group and letting the public meet you first as like... The Spice Girls is the opposite of how most girl groups operate. You know what I'm saying? Or Cat's Eye is the opposite, where each girl has her own specific role. A lot of R&B girl groups, when you're first coming out, you may get to know someone's vocals specifically and then attach to them in that way. But for the most part, the girls are going to be presenting themselves very similarly, wearing similar outfits. If one of them has on a white blazer, they all got on white blazers. Totally. One of them is wearing an off-the-shoulder top, then pretty much all of them have on off-the-shoulder tops at that time. It's to my understanding, but I'd love to know more.

Speaker 1:
[59:52] No, that's my understanding as well. I was having trouble. What's interesting about En Vogue, as I was doing this research, is some groups are so overly written about. You look back and you could find so much reflections on groups like TLC or Destiny's Child and all this stuff. I was actually having trouble locating true narratives of what exactly was going on here. In fact, I had to really dig even as we get into the period where they start to have these tensions to figure out exactly what was going on here. It doesn't feel that well-documented in a way that was easily accessible to me.

Speaker 2:
[60:24] No. I think part of that is like, Lipstick Alley was not even yet. It had yet to flourish and become what it became. But I also think part of that too is going back to the grown and sexy, sexy, classy sort of stuff. I feel like by the time a lot of their drama was unfolding, both En Vogue and a lot of their fan base was too grown to care.

Speaker 1:
[60:47] Exactly. There was a lot of gap between this period and when that was all. What we're going to talk about right now, Funky Divas, is they're kind of like their peak album in many ways, and they do come back and they do have a few more hits that we're going to talk about after that. But it was a confined moment and it felt like maybe by the time that it was happening, they were still able to get big hits off, but they weren't like peak of the zeitgeist. This is their moment of being peak of the zeitgeist, and it was kind of short-lived, and I think in some ways it's interesting, there hasn't been the same level of reflection on them in the way that we still talk about TLC, and TLC still feels like a vibrant big part of our cultural discourse to this day in a way that En Vogue just kind of doesn't. They feel confined to this moment, so we don't have even that retrospective sort of stuff. But anyway, let's talk about Funky Divas. As I said, this album, Fucking Bangs, it's so good. The first single is, in my opinion, their signature song. It's called My Lovin, You're Never Gonna Get It. Let's talk about this song. I mean, this is such an amazing banger. And I think it really does kind of like take the hold on template and like basically like see it to its logical conclusion. Kind of like jazzy hip hop soul banger of essentially being like men will never be able to measure up to our beauty class standards. And like it makes that feel like a glorious stature to take on basically like a like it's just, I love the sassy energy of the song.

Speaker 2:
[62:22] I love it. I love everything about it. I love like, I don't know. I mean, everything about the song. I mean, the song is perfect. The video is perfect.

Speaker 1:
[62:31] The video is so good. The video is iconic.

Speaker 2:
[62:33] So good. I mean, it's like you said, it's eternally stylish in this way. That's like so incredible.

Speaker 1:
[62:38] Flowing Satin Curtains is a big video.

Speaker 2:
[62:40] Big video motif. I'm like, let's bring that back.

Speaker 1:
[62:42] Billowing Satin Curtains.

Speaker 2:
[62:44] Yes. Yes. I'm like, let's bring it back, please. But yeah, no, I mean, the song is perfect. I just think about like, just like that funky sample and also just like-

Speaker 1:
[62:52] The little flute noise.

Speaker 2:
[62:53] Just like how- Like woodwind. Perfect. It's like just such a perfect early 90s flourish. But yeah, I think the song is so perfect. And also too, it's also like so much about, again, they're kind of blazing through, coming through with this lead single that's like, instead of talking to like your friends and being like, you know, don't get played by men. It's like you're telling me like, no, you're not going to be able to get back. Like, this is like the kitchen is closed. Like, I love it. It's like, no, you're never going to get it. Not this time. It's never going to happen. You are like, you know, what is it? Is that Terry who says that? See, when you like it, you lose it. And I'm out the door.

Speaker 1:
[63:31] You lose it.

Speaker 2:
[63:32] Exactly. And I'm out the door. And it's just perfect. Also too, I think really, it feels like whoever, I actually think at this point in time, they might've been working with Frank Gatson.

Speaker 1:
[63:52] You mean choreography-wise?

Speaker 2:
[63:53] I think choreography and stage stuff too. Cause I want to say at this point in time, they're working with Frank Gatson. But Frank Gatson was somewhere in the mix at this point in time. And for those who are real OG members of the Beehive, we all know who Frank Gatson is, somebody who worked with Beyonce and Destiny's Child very early in their careers. Really incredible choreographer and just really understands stagecraft and performance. But it felt like the perfect elucidation of all of these sort of different references that they, you could kind of hear in their music, but weren't always coming through the same way in the visuals. And I felt like with this song, it was like the video, it's like referencing obviously the Supremes, but there's also a little bit of like the messiness of the Ronettes. I always feel like I see them as like X and Y, like two separate axes.

Speaker 1:
[64:34] 100 percent, yeah. The two genders.

Speaker 2:
[64:36] Yes, exactly. The two genders. Exactly, exactly. And I feel like this video is such a meeting place for that. I also like Big Spender feels like there's like a sort of Oh, 100 percent Big Spender.

Speaker 1:
[64:58] Yeah, like big band stuff.

Speaker 2:
[64:59] Yes, yes. But it's sexy, it's fresh, it's eternally chic, it's just so fucking cool. And it just, it's like the best kiss off song ever. And also to your seeing, I feel like we're getting a lot, I mean, technology improved and like what, like the amount of money that whoever their label was willing to spend on their videos definitely went up in this time. Because now I feel like I'm getting an idea, I'm beginning to get an idea of what each girl is bringing separately. I can see their faces clearly, so that's one, because you can't see that in the hold on video. You cannot make out all the girls from the other.

Speaker 1:
[65:29] It's not really high def. That video is not high def.

Speaker 2:
[65:32] But this video, I feel like you're starting to get a clear understanding of who each girl is. Also too, I feel like there's also like a, I'm seeing some Dionne Warwick in there. It feels like there's some sort of like drag references, some like Miss Honey.

Speaker 1:
[65:47] I was going to say, there's some like high fashion elements and like sleek kind of like provocative images that are like mostly the men. Like there's that man in the latex kind of like body suit. Like it's giving kind of like S and M, almost like energy to it. It's just like a funny contrast to them. Again, like giving like modern nineties, but also giving like kind of sixties throwback, kind of glamour. And then there's also these like moments of kind of high fashion, but they're in the male form, which I think is kind of an interesting touch. And then the other thing I was going to say is like, what I love about this song is it's a kiss-off, but it's also incredibly playful and funny. Like, the breakdown, first of all, in the middle, where they go, Now it's time for a breakdown. There's a comedy to that. Like they're kind of like, they're kind of laughing in your face. And they're also like, like they're utilizing that mid-century kind of, again, like Andrews Sister vibe to sort of like laugh in the face of men that think that they're gonna get them and like find a new kind of clever musical way to convey that laugh. I think it's just like one of the best parts of this song. That's the part of the song that like has always stuck with me, like even before I was like engaged with even knowing what En Vogue totally was, that is like the thing that was like baked into my head, that like breakdown in the middle.

Speaker 2:
[67:06] Also like I imagine, I mean, I imagine like, if I were listening to that on the radio, like, you know, at the time, like as an adult, that like it must have sounded like such a break from other contemporary music. Like the rest of the song is very much like, it sounds fresh and cool and new, but also at the time. But like that piece right there, it probably just took you out of the song for a second. And you're like, damn.

Speaker 1:
[67:26] It gets announced, a guy goes, and now time for the breakdown. And then they do it.

Speaker 2:
[67:31] I love it. It's like so cool too. Cause like, I remember hearing that and being like, what's gonna happen now? It's like, look, this is the breakdown. But even I think about like, I mean, every detail was just so considered. Even thinking about like the sample, it's a James Brown song.

Speaker 1:
[67:43] James Brown, The Payback.

Speaker 2:
[67:44] Yes. I mean, thematically, thematically. Exactly, for my content. Everything about it is just like so, so, so perfect.

Speaker 1:
[68:05] It's very lush too, like you can feel, like the music sounds as kind of plush and sophisticated as they do. Like this song just is incredible. Like literally.

Speaker 2:
[68:15] But you want to do something funny. So I was like looking up, cause I was wondering, cause I mean, I've always thought Funky Divas is a perfect album. I reviewed at the time in Rolling Stone, which Rolling Stone did not write the album very well. And I'm reading the review and it basically calls this song filler.

Speaker 1:
[68:28] I know. I saw, oh my God, I saw that too. I was like, okay.

Speaker 2:
[68:30] And it was written by Danielle Smith, who I love Danielle.

Speaker 1:
[68:34] I know. I was like, she's been like, former guest of the podcast.

Speaker 2:
[68:37] And she's had like En Vogue on her podcast. She had a podcast on Spotify for a while, called Black Girl Songbook. Oh my God. Go back and listen to it. It's so, so, so good. But it was so, I mean, I loved Danielle down, interviewed her a bunch. I was dead when I saw, I was like, no, who said this? And I saw Danielle and I was dead. Now I want to ask her so much about it. Cause I'm like, girl, you're from Oakland. So I'm like, what's going on here?

Speaker 1:
[68:57] Some of our greatest critics, you got to have your takes. It's like when Calefa Senna said that Beyonce was no Shanti. I mean, these are the ones we remember.

Speaker 2:
[69:04] These are the ones we remember. But yeah, I chuckled at that because it's so funny. Cause now, I mean, obviously like, you know, 30 something years later, it's even clearer just how great of a fucking song this is and how it's really stood the test of time.

Speaker 1:
[69:16] And it's like a perfect distillation of this group. Like this is En Vogue in a song. Like it just is. It's just like, it's just perfect. I know the last thing I just want to make sure we say. Which is, again, this is the other pull, because I think in this song, they're releasing the veneer of the elegant classiness, and they're going for rock star hippie era protests, liberation, electric guitar. This is their black cat meets rhythm nation, in the sense that you've got the searing rock elements, and you've got the idea of making socially conscious music. This is where you hear the wake of the LA riots happening, I feel like. This is the song where they're obviously... It's really interesting because the political nature of the song is both, as I said, kind of like this, let's break the color lines, but also they're sort of being like, but I'm still down with... There's that lyric where they go, doesn't mean I don't like my strong black brother. Black brother, yeah. So what do you make of this song in particular? Because this is obviously another one that's really stood the test of time.

Speaker 2:
[71:09] Okay, I love this song.

Speaker 1:
[71:11] Yeah, it's so good. It's so good.

Speaker 2:
[71:13] It's so good. And also too, I'll say like Black Cat by Janet was one of my, I mean, it's one of my favorite Janet songs of all time. But like when I was a child, that was like, that was like my Janet jam. And I love, I love when black girls get rock. I love when we go back to our roots.

Speaker 1:
[71:27] For sure, Big Mama Thornton in the house.

Speaker 2:
[71:28] Exactly, I love when we go back to our roots. But I love this song because there is a little bit of this sort of like, you mentioned, this sort of like, there's like a 90s cornyness for sure the lyrics and like what it's asking for.

Speaker 1:
[71:38] And like, we need to earnesty back in. Like I was like, it's just so funny to think of this being such a big hit, because like we would never allow Pop Axe to be this earnest, it feels like to be anymore. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[71:50] Not at all. I mean, that's how we kind of, I mean, again, No Shade of Cat's Eye, I watched all of Pop Star Academy.

Speaker 1:
[71:55] I love it. Cat's Eye has become like such a huge feature of this episode.

Speaker 2:
[71:57] I know, but it's like, they're also, I mean, they're in their own group, they're having a job right now. But like, I mean, that's sort of how we get to this sort of like, I mean, people talk a lot of shit about Cat's Eye for like Nari and stuff like that, like Internet Girl or whatever. But it's like, this has been a back and forth between pop music and the culture for so long. That's pushed us to this point where we're like also fucking irony pill, where it's like a song has to be basically in order for people to kind of get into it. But yeah, there's an earnestness here that is a little bit corny, but it is also like real, like there is like, it is real, like a lot of the sort of things that they're talking about still, you know, all these years later, they still feel relevant. They still grind my gears to a certain degree. There's like phrasing here that's kind of like, oh, I don't know if we would say that like this anymore. But what this song has always symbolized to me, or really maybe like I liked it when I was a lot younger because I was like, oh, this is, you know, obviously I thought the song was fun.

Speaker 1:
[72:47] It just hit rock sound. It really hit.

Speaker 2:
[72:49] It hits. But as I've gotten older, I'm like, oh yeah, like this is really, like it felt to me, like a song that's really about a lot of the double, triple quadruple quintuple binds of being a black woman and everyone kind of like putting all this stuff on you and like judging you. And also too, I felt like with Funky Divas, they were kind of like coming into like a new era of sexiness and stylishness and maybe even like basking in the crossover glow, right? And I feel like this song, like again, to throw it back to Danielle Smith and her book Shine Bright, which is an amazing book. Everyone should read it. She touches on the ways in which even within the black community, there can be these constraints that are put on black women, especially when they become like super huge in the public eye or very successful. I mean, I could go down the list right now. Megan Thee Stallion is someone who comes to mind from the past 10 years as an example. But like that same sort of animus also appeared, you know, with Diana Ross, Whitney Houston.

Speaker 1:
[73:43] Totally, 100%.

Speaker 2:
[73:44] Danielle gets into that in the book. But yeah, I mean, it's something that we still see to this day all of the time. But yeah, I felt like they were really talking about it. But you don't have to be a pop star to sort of experience that, which Danielle also talks about. You don't have to be a pop star to experience that. It's like everybody from other black people to everybody else on the face of the planet will have something to say about what you're doing or how you present yourself or what you want out of life. And I like, I like listen back to this and I'm like, oh my God, this is like really, this is kind of sick. They're just kind of like, I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously everyone's like, they're unleashing.

Speaker 1:
[74:14] They're kind of like, let their freak flags fly here a little bit in a way. That's so.

Speaker 2:
[74:18] Yeah, they are. And I kind of like, there's something that's kind of cool about that. And I imagine it felt a little bit transgressive in the sense that at this point, I mean, these women are like in there, maybe starting to be in their later 20s. Yeah, which I mean, middle age 20s meant something different back then than it does now. Now it means maybe we're in a sort of extension of childhood that definitely started with my generation. But yeah, I know there is something that feels a little bit like they're not 19 saying this, they're not 20 saying this. They're kind of like, I'm grown, I'm going to fuck who I want to fuck. I'm going to dress how I want to dress. I want to do my hair how the fuck I want. It doesn't mean that I want to be white. And so even when they're saying like, be colorblind, don't be so shallow. I do think that a lot of people, like I actually never really read that so much as like racial harmony, even though I think that's very clearly what the song is about, I always interpreted that as like, don't put a fucking box on it. Like the colorblindness is almost more for them to me, that's how I interpreted the song. It's like be colorblind when you look at me, because that's kind of what they're talking about when they're in the song. All the examples that come up in like sort of the verses are about like themselves. And it's like, be colorblind when you look at me, don't be so shallow, as opposed to like, we all need to sort of play together. That's how I always interpreted the song.

Speaker 1:
[75:28] Yeah, and also I think that then it's a form and content thing because they're also saying like, don't confine us musically, like we're gonna make this rock song. Like to this point, they've had a very specific media in terms of like, what their music sounds like, right? They're making a very specific, very clearly envisaged sort of like contemporary take on R&B and hip hop and all of that kind of stuff. That's like, they have a very clear point of view, but this song is saying like, actually we can expand that and hold many different forms and genres. In fact, like thinking about Beyonce's current project in terms of reclaiming genres, you could hear her incorporating this kind of element into Act 3. And I think that the other thing, you know what I was thinking about when I was hearing this is like, it does remind me of like Love Child or like later period Supreme songs that did become more socially aware, socially conscious. Okay, talk about it, I love that song. No, but that's what I'm saying. It's like, it is this thing that is also part of the same girl group history that they're referencing, which is like, we think about the Supremes and in the most basic sense, we're thinking of, you know, middle 60s songs that were obviously the most enduring, Baby Love, Where'd I Love Go, You Can't Hurry Love, etc. But the Supremes also at a certain point, and Diana Ross at a certain point, did lean into like social activism and did like make songs that were about kind of like challenging the status quo, that were about racial politics, that like leaned into her identity in that way. So this song fits into that lineage in a way that's like a little bit more unexpected but also suits and vogues reinvigoration of like those tropes as well.

Speaker 2:
[76:57] I'm so glad that you note that sort of look back because I mean Free Your Mind and The Rest Will Follow is a play on a Funkadelic song I think?

Speaker 1:
[77:04] Yes, Free Your Mind and Your Ass Will Follow.

Speaker 2:
[77:17] And I mean, Funkadelic was a rock band, you know? And so much of, I love the sort of the layered approach that the entire team, because this is obviously, these songs were produced and written by, again, McElroy and Foster. But that's such a smart, sort of layered approach to where the reference or the sample or whatever really thematically follows what the song is about. And when I think about, I don't know, when you think about someone like George Clinton, you know what I'm saying? Of Funkadelic, this is somebody, or even I think about, I grew up learning, my dad was in a band when he was younger that was managed by Eddie Kendricks. Yeah, and grew up in Motown, all of that stuff. My dad was super intense about music. The Brides of Funkenstein. These are things that I grew up really caring a lot about. But all of those groups, or even to think about LaBelle, all of these groups and all of these sounds are in the sonic influence of the song, but also when you see the video, they are giving this very... There's a runway and it's this very 90s fashion show. It feels very Paris Fashion Week. But also, visually, they are referencing LaBelle with the costumes. They are referencing P-Funk. All of these things are... The references are hitting on every single level and really braiding the other artistry. Oh my God, you just give me chills thinking about Beyoncé's Act 3. And like, oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[78:41] I'm like, she should sing this on the tour.

Speaker 2:
[78:43] Like I was going to say, she should sing this on the... I would cry.

Speaker 1:
[78:47] I could see it. I mean, no question, Beyoncé was pumping Funky Divas. Like, let's be honest.

Speaker 2:
[78:53] Hello.

Speaker 1:
[78:54] No question. No question.

Speaker 2:
[78:55] I mean, listen, their spirits were in the room when she recorded I Care.

Speaker 1:
[78:59] Absolutely. OK, say that. OK, that's amazing. OK, so that's the first two top tens. My Love and Ghost No. 2, Free Your Mind, Ghost No. 8. The third one is also really interesting to me, Giving Him Something He Could Feel, which is a cover of a song from the film Sparkle, which is really interesting.

Speaker 2:
[79:16] The soundcheck was done by Aretha Franklin.

Speaker 1:
[79:18] 100%. And it's about a fictional Motown-esque girl group. So, in some ways, I was like this cover, which is actually like, you know, a pretty like, it's just a beautiful kind of straightforward in some ways cover of this song, actually takes on a deeper meaning because they're almost like commentating on their own manufactured girl group history in this way. Obviously, the girl group history is always somewhere in the mix with En Vogue, and it's like this big part of it. So I think it's really interesting that they choose to cover this song that is from a movie about like a fictionalized Motown girl group. It's just like a very interesting sort of like backbone to this. And the other thing I want to bring up about this song that I think is really interesting contextually is like, if you think of En Vogue as like vocals first, harmonies first, like a group that is about singing, which like this song, a great showcase. I wrote the harmonies are just always hitting. They sound so good on this song. The singing is so good. They perfectly inhabit this kind of Philly soul energy.

Speaker 2:
[80:28] They sound so good on this song. Everything about it, it really drills down on everything about their sort of like polished elegance and the way that they approach everything about their performance. Like I said, I think around this time, they were working with Frank Gatson as their creative director. And everything about him to me is so class elegance, just all the way down. Also, if you haven't seen the movie Sparkle with Irene Cara and also Detroit's own Lennette McKee, who also to bring things full circle was in Jungle Fever, oh my gosh. And also the album, I have the album on vinyl by Aretha, it's just such a great soundtrack. The movie is incredible. But like they found a way to reference the movie and like this really key performance in the movie. And Irene Cara is so fantastic in the movie, but also Lennette McKee is so sexy and cool in the movie as sister. And they all kind of strike that all of the women of En Vogue strike that note in this performance in the video. But they find a way to make it 90s. Because like Sparkle is like the 70s doing like the 60s, like the early 60s, 50s. And they find a way to do that in the 90s in a way that still feels really fresh. And it's so cool.

Speaker 1:
[81:49] Blue satin curtains, billowing blue satin curtains.

Speaker 2:
[81:51] And the full length gloves.

Speaker 1:
[81:53] And the gloves. There's a little Marilyn Diamonds Are Our Girl's best friend energy going on in the lipstick for sure.

Speaker 2:
[81:59] It's just very cool. And yeah, it just nails down everything about. It's just perfect positioning. It felt to me like such a solidifying of how they're positioning themselves. And again, too, it feels like with this album, we really start to get to know each of them as individuals. And I feel like that video specifically, there's something about it maybe because there's so many sort of like closer up shots, like there's so many tighter shots of all the girls. And because it's kind of about like this more individual, like it's still unified, but it felt like a more individualized sort of like sexy performance. I mean, where Dawn gets a lot of shine, I feel like. Yeah, it feels like we're continuing to get to know each of the girls as individuals.

Speaker 1:
[82:36] Absolutely. I completely agree. Okay. There's a few, I just want to make sure there's a few other songs that we have to talk about here. One is Give It Up, Turn It, Lose. Which is another big single from this that's giving me a little bit like Cheryl Lynn for the hip hop generation kind of energy. A little bit to Barge. I like it. Like one of my favorite songs ever. Yeah, like I just really, really love this song. I love that kick back vibe that like certain 90s R&B hits have. Like that kind of like, I don't know, there's just something super light and sunny and posy about listening to this song.

Speaker 2:
[83:17] It reminds me also, I mean, Destiny's Child, they should call it En Vogue's Daughters. That's actually what they should be called. This reminds me, like the vibe of this song, both sonically, the tone, like you said, sort of like vibey, sort of like hang kind of of it.

Speaker 1:
[83:29] Kick off your shoes and relax your feet. Get on down to the execute.

Speaker 2:
[83:32] Yeah, exactly. But also like you're like being enshrined in a sister circle because you need to let this man go. Like that also feels like girl.

Speaker 1:
[83:41] The sister circle, absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[83:42] From Destiny Fulfilled. Yeah, like there's just like, big sis vibes. Yes, big sis vibes, like kind of calling back to that like opening single. But I love that song. And there's another one, it starts with a skit.

Speaker 1:
[83:52] Dawn, what's wrong? There's nothing wrong, Terry. Kevin, please don't tell me it's Kevin. Ew, Kevin Swahili, I knew it.

Speaker 2:
[84:02] It kind of provides that sort of thing where it's like, what Dawn's hung up on, like, what Kevin Swahili and they're like, oh, but he's like, you know, he's getting with all these other girls. It's like a lot of playful teasing that continues to, I don't know, like the whole album kind of starts off with this vibe of like, with the skits of like, you know, the girls are like, you're backstage, you're in the dressing room, you're watching these impossibly. Like in my mind, when I was a kid, I imagine watching these impossibly glamorous women, like try to find their lipsticks and try to find their like, face powder and they're like warming up.

Speaker 1:
[84:29] And they're Christians, they need to say a prayer.

Speaker 2:
[84:31] They need to say a prayer. And you know, it's like, you feel like you're kind of like, again, hanging with them, like either like in between dance rehearsals or like before their performance and like just hearing their little chit chat with each other.

Speaker 1:
[84:44] Absolutely. I love that you want to be in their girl groups. Like I think the girl girl groups, you should want to feel that way. Like that's how I've definitely felt about TLC. That's how I felt about Spice Girls. I definitely feel about them. The other songs that were so interesting to me, OK, it's like there's, it's ain't over till the fat lady sings. Which is like a rapped song that definitely feels like, if TLC's debut album comes out a year after this, this song is straight up, what about your friends, it ain't too proud to beg, precursor, like a rapped mission statement, and they're just laying out all of their vibes, their strong mind, good positive attitude, group trust. Again, trust, this idea of trust. They're talking about people that use lies, people that try to get negative attention, people that are stuck up, people that got knives on your back. It's interesting because they're all about singing, but this song is their mission statement, but they're rapping, which I think is just kind of like an interesting, I don't know, dynamic.

Speaker 2:
[85:47] Yeah, it also felt like they, I mean, in some ways it's like almost like they were like too early in a way, but also kind of like, like where they were like rapping, but like not with, as we'll see later in the nineties, like where there's a lot of like R&B and rap collabs. Like it's not that where they're collaborating with a rapper in the same, in that nineties way.

Speaker 1:
[86:05] We're still pre real love remix and fancy remix.

Speaker 2:
[86:09] But yeah, we're aways from that and we're aways from like, you know, Mariah and ODB, but they're also like predate like the Destiny's Child sort of like rap singing.

Speaker 1:
[86:17] Totally. And Mariah, like Mariah Breakdown and all of that kind of stuff. Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2:
[86:22] So like they're predating that and kind of too early in the way where I think that like you can see across some of the reviews that people are like, hmm, they're rapping. What's that?

Speaker 1:
[86:28] Yeah, right. Right. But also they're post Janet and Heavy D on the All Right remix. I mean, it's like beginning to happen a little bit. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[86:35] But yeah, no, I thought that song was really cool.

Speaker 1:
[86:38] It's so cool. This album is so dynamic.

Speaker 2:
[86:41] And they sell it.

Speaker 1:
[86:41] That's the thing is they sell it. Every single, there's so many different things happening on here, but it feels so unified and it's so fun. There's never a boring moment. Like you're just constantly-

Speaker 2:
[86:49] It feels like they're playing with different things.

Speaker 1:
[86:51] For sure. Including a hip hop version of Yesterday by The Beatles. Let's talk about actually. Okay, that's really good.

Speaker 2:
[87:11] So that's the version I heard before. I heard the Beatles version.

Speaker 1:
[87:13] And it's better, and they kind of wash the Beatles.

Speaker 2:
[87:15] It actually is better. Actually better.

Speaker 1:
[87:19] It is the canonical version, obviously.

Speaker 2:
[87:21] Agreed, agreed. And I mean, so when I heard the Beatles version, when I was eight, I was like, hold on.

Speaker 1:
[87:26] Yeah, you were like, wait.

Speaker 2:
[87:26] How do they record this before En Vogue?

Speaker 1:
[87:27] You were like, why are they covering En Vogue?

Speaker 2:
[87:30] Right, I was like, but one of them's dead. Like, how did this happen?

Speaker 1:
[87:32] How did they do that?

Speaker 2:
[87:33] Yeah, I mean, it's so, so, so, so, it's so good. And also too, like, there's like, right before Give It Up, Turn It Loose at the beginning, like at the beginning of the skit, is them like working on something like, I Believe In Yesterday, I Believe In Yesterday, like the refrain from yesterday. I can only imagine, like, it must have been so cool to actually like really consciously hear that for the first time and be like, oh my God, wait, they're really gonna sing yesterday for the next song, because it was like, it's so cool, they kind of tease it at the beginning of Give It Up, Turn It Loose, and then the next song is Yesterday.

Speaker 1:
[88:13] Yes, this album has a real, like, they thought about this, they thought about making an album, and it like really plays, like, this is such a good album, like, listeners, if you walk away with nothing else from this episode, like, go have a great afternoon listening to this album.

Speaker 2:
[88:25] Yes, and also like the weather's starting to get good and stuff like that, it's just such a, oh yeah, this is perfect for the spring. Like, oh my God, like, dump your trifling man and listen to this album.

Speaker 1:
[88:31] Right, hello, right, like get rid of him and put this record on, that's exactly how it is. So this is, I would say, pretty much the peak of En Vogue, right? Like this album features three top 10 hits on the Hot 100, it moves five million units worldwide, like it's a really big moment for them. And what's really interesting about that is that like, they then spend five years in between records. Now they are around during this period.

Speaker 2:
[88:56] They have one of their best songs with-

Speaker 1:
[88:57] One of their biggest songs-

Speaker 2:
[88:58] Salt and Pepper!

Speaker 1:
[89:00] One of the most iconic joint-slay moments in pop history to me personally. And again, thinking about hip-hop's continued crossover by 1993, when this song comes out, Salt and Pepper, huge group, two women, rapping, having big hits, this was such a team up to me because it was two groups coming together in this moment, for Whatta Man is what we're talking about. This is a number three Hot 100 hit that is En Vogue and Salt and Pepper together. And this is a funny inverse of the Kiss Off songs, because this is a song about basically celebrating a great man, right? I mean, this is a song about when guys are good.

Speaker 2:
[89:51] Yes!

Speaker 1:
[89:52] This song was everything to me. I was obsessed with this song.

Speaker 2:
[89:56] Everything. And also too, it was cute to see the way in which En Vogue also kind of styled them. Because this song came out after, I believe after TLC debuted, is that right? Or same year?

Speaker 1:
[90:08] Same year.

Speaker 2:
[90:09] And so it's interesting to sort of see like the way that En Vogue are styled in that video, like with Salt and Pepper. It's like so cute because like Salt and Pepper and Spinderella are a little bit more like, in some ways they're like almost a little bit more like R&B sexy. They always were sexy, but they're almost a little bit more sexy class.

Speaker 1:
[90:29] They're edgier.

Speaker 2:
[90:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're edgier than En Vogue. And then you sort of see En Vogue sort of like adopt more of like, I don't know, starting to meet each other more in the middle visually, like in the video. It's so, so, so, so cute.

Speaker 1:
[90:39] I wanted to be their friends so badly. And I want to be in this video. Like imagine six year old me, like looking at this and I'm like, I need to be part of this. Like how do I become part of this friend group?

Speaker 2:
[90:49] I also thought that like men being in three piece suits was like gonna be a big part of my life. It's never really come up again.

Speaker 1:
[90:55] And it's been disappointing.

Speaker 2:
[90:56] It's been disappointing. I'm like, what happened to these men who were gonna be in their three piece suits and looking sexy? What happened to that?

Speaker 1:
[91:02] Let's bring it back. Let's rewind it. Okay, also, I love the idea of girl groups coming together and not competing with each other. The idea that they can be on this together and be supportive of each other is, again, it's this earnest, winning thing that we just don't... There's something just so earnest in the best way. I miss, take me back. I miss, I just miss earnest, uplift, good vibes, good messages, you know? I don't know. Maybe it's just cause the world feels so dark and depressing now. There was just something so simple and beautiful about this to me.

Speaker 2:
[91:34] I totally agree. I totally agree. I'm trying to think, I'm like the only thing that kind of felt like it came close to me and still actually did not reach peak in the same way to me was when it was like, what, Lil Kim, Missy, Da Brat.

Speaker 1:
[91:45] Oh yeah, Ladies Night.

Speaker 2:
[91:46] Angie Martinez and Left Eye all did Ladies Night.

Speaker 1:
[91:48] Oh my God, that was the best thing ever. Oh my God. And it's not all female linkups have this same kind of amiable loving energy. It's like, you know, Moulin Rouge, for instance, was like known that they all fucking hated each other.

Speaker 2:
[92:00] It comes through in the video.

Speaker 1:
[92:01] Yes, and it comes through.

Speaker 2:
[92:02] And it's just such a, it felt like such a vibe and it felt really natural too. It didn't feel like anybody was aiming for a certain type of crossover or it didn't feel like it was something that like a bunch of suits decided like, oh, this is how we're going to get this, our hip hop group onto the R&B charts or this is how we're going to get our R&B group to crossover into hip hop audiences. It just felt really natural. And it felt like a kind of song that both groups would make. It was just so cute.

Speaker 1:
[92:24] Absolutely. And it just feels like this is what 1993 sounded like. Like this is like, like if you were going to like give Aliens a representation of like what pop music sounded like in 1993, like you could hand them this song and it would be like, yeah, this is what it sounded like.

Speaker 2:
[92:38] Perfect. I mean, it was just like, it was like the best. It was the best.

Speaker 1:
[92:41] I love it. It's like pre-Girl Power. It's like Girl Power before Girl Power got its name. Like it's just, I just love this song. Okay. So that's that. That's the number three hit. So En Vogue is on like, this is as close to an Imperial run as they're going to get on. And then there's this really long hiatus. So basically in 95, they're featured on a song Freedom from the soundtrack to Panther, the Mario Van Peebles film. And then basically two of them go on maternity leave, Cindy and Maxine in 1995. And Ellis released like a solo album called Southern Gal. And she had like a top 10 R&B single with Wherever You Are. They made an appearance in Joel Schumacher's iconic Batman Forever, of course.

Speaker 2:
[93:37] Perfect.

Speaker 1:
[93:40] What are you talking about?

Speaker 2:
[93:41] That's Batman.

Speaker 1:
[93:43] And then they release what is kind of like their last like true blue smash hit in 1996, which is called Don't Let Go Love. So let's talk about, I'm gonna talk about this song, and then we're gonna talk about how things kind of start to spin off the rails from this point on. So, Don't Let Go, different kind of En Vogue song to me. I mean, this is definitely like, you can hear that music has changed from the, like the 90s was a really progressive time for music. And like, I feel like more than other decades in some ways, like you can really hear the evolution of like music technology and like the sound of music, even like in year long increments as this goes on. And to me, Don't Let Go is, I mean, obviously it's their most played song on Spotify. Like this is, I think in some ways, like the song that like many people still know best from En Vogue or that has endured more than the other ones have, but it's much more like adult contemporary forward to me. Okay, here's the craziest fact about this. Written for Aerosmith, did you read this? No, really? This is their first single that isn't from the duo, from Mick Elroy and Foster. It's produced by Organized Noise, who are famously outcast collaborators. They produced Waterfalls by TLC. It's written by Andrea Martin, who's like a big kind of AC, R&B crossover songwriter of this period, and she wrote it for Aerosmith, which I just think is so crazy because it does have a rock vibe to it. There's a big Syrian kind of rock guitar on it, and it has a bluesy rock quality to it. But I don't know, do you understand what I'm saying? This feels like a different kind of song to me than there are other songs.

Speaker 2:
[95:33] No, it absolutely does. I mean, it definitely had, I think you're absolutely right, it had a very adult, it was like a more mature R&B sound, but still also kind of-

Speaker 1:
[95:41] Syrian, sexy, soldier, smoldering.

Speaker 2:
[95:43] Yeah, and it was able to kind of like pierce through generationally. And also like, I mean, listen, I grew up around all white people for the most part, and they were all loving it.

Speaker 1:
[95:53] They were pumping it too.

Speaker 2:
[95:53] Oh yeah, for sure. So it was like, definitely, it was like a huge, huge, huge hit, but it does kind of stick out as an anomaly. It sticks out as an anomaly on the album, EV3, for sure. For a variety of reasons, obviously, not just because Dawn is on that song and not on many other songs.

Speaker 1:
[96:05] Which we're going to get to.

Speaker 2:
[96:06] We will get to. But also, I mean, to your point, like R&B changed so much. Even just girl group R&B changed so much between 1992 and 1997.

Speaker 1:
[96:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[96:16] And to a certain degree, it's understandable how En Vogue, because they started grown, would have aged into adult contemporary sound.

Speaker 1:
[96:24] It makes total sense.

Speaker 2:
[96:25] And also too, this is a time when, in the 90s, R&B wise people were embracing true legacy acts. I'm not calling En Vogue legacy act in the 90s. But they were like, Aretha Franklin came back out and had a single with Lauryn Hill and The Temptations had a couple songs that made a return. People were really embracing these R&B legends and were still open, especially adult contemporary audiences at that point probably would have been about my parents age who were in their 40s around this time. People I think in their late 30s and 40s who were grown when En Vogue came out, but we're now in middle age, but also grew up listening to the Curtis Mayfields and the Aretha Franklins and so on and so forth. That audience was still there and still buying tickets to... You know what I'm saying? I think about someone like Whitney, right? Whitney was still making music in the late 90s and early 2000s and it had a very grown R&B sound and there was an audience for it for that kind of sound that heard that song and loved it. But there wasn't quite, I think that the EV3 album didn't quite, probably because the group kind of disintegrated around this time, but it just didn't feel like it was cohesively moving in that direction. Because I mean, so many things are going on at this time, like girl groups have changed dramatically. Even by the time we get to the late 90s, a lot of the girl groups that sounded so fresh and exploded in the early 90s, they weren't really relevant anymore. And then you have groups like SWV and Total who are collaborating heavy with hip hop artists and are coming sometimes from these hip hop labels. So it's like it was just a totally different playing field. But I still felt like looking back, like there was a lot of opportunity for En Vogue to dominate if they wanted to.

Speaker 1:
[98:04] Yeah, but I think that they were having too much drama for them to really work together and I think Don't Let Go is the best example of their AC era. I mean, it's still filled with desire, it's sexy, they want to be more than friends. You know what I mean? I love the controlled singing on the verses and then when they get into the losing control of the chorus, you can really feel the letting go of the sexual desire. And again, this is Dawn's last moment, really. And this song goes to number two on the Hot 100. It's really their last big hit. And that is partially because as this song blows up, it's kind of what leads them to recording this third album as you brought up EV3. Like the success of it is when they're like, okay, we've got to get it together and make an album. But in the process of making the album, as you said, the group falls apart. I don't know what you understand exactly about what happened, but my loose understanding of it is that, like so many girl groups before them, they feel like they're locked into unfair contracts or some of them feel as though they're locked into unfair contracts, they're not really making the money. I mean, this is TLC, I mean, this is The Supremes, this is every, I mean, the amount of times that we've seen girl groups be in these situations, especially girl groups of color. And basically Dawn is the number one voice of being like, we slash I deserve more money. Is that kind of like one of the main things that's happening here?

Speaker 2:
[99:32] Yeah, so my understanding is that Dawn, and all the girls felt like they deserved more money because they were making so little. From my understanding, it seems like the situation is not that different from say, the way that TLC explained it in their behind the music.

Speaker 1:
[99:47] One of the most iconic clips of all time is TLC explaining.

Speaker 2:
[99:49] Of all time.

Speaker 1:
[99:50] How you can have the best selling record of all time and also like Be Broke.

Speaker 2:
[99:53] Still Be Broke, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[99:55] This is how a group can sell 10 million records in Be Broke.

Speaker 2:
[99:58] But yeah, I believe Dawn at some point spoke about this down the line. But my understanding or the prevailing rumor is that while the girls were trying to renegotiate in the 90s, a couple of things were going on. Obviously, Maxine took maternity leave and Cindy took maternity leave, but also they needed to renegotiate. I think they wanted to renegotiate before making a new album. But whenever they would want to go as a group to the label and be like, hey, we're putting our foot down, we need to renegotiate or whatever, they would agree that they weren't going to pursue solo projects during that time. And Terry made her solo album in the mid-90s, and that kind of violated whatever negotiating agreement that the girls were trying to work together on as a group. We weren't trying to pursue solo projects while we're trying to renegotiate as a group. And also there were some rumors that Terry was dating a guy at the label or was dating a guy basically that was on the other team or was entrenched in the other team. And so that also kind of made things tense. It made things kind of tense. And also I could see how if that's the situation, that that would make it kind of like trying to choose between your group and your man or then the group looking at her like, okay, well, you dance with the girls that brung you because who knows who this man is. But yeah, that is the prevailing rumor that I heard that like there were they weren't supposed to be pursuing solo projects and renegotiate. But also with so many things kind of like different balls up in the air, like you mentioned with the two maternity leaves and, you know, perhaps some confusion over whether or not Terry should have been pursuing a solo album. There was a lot going on. And it seems like whatever the drama was, it held things up for a long time.

Speaker 1:
[101:32] And also it was a shock to the other. So basically then Robinson leaves, Dawn leaves, and she signs with Dr. Dre's aftermath to like create her own solo album, I guess, when she doesn't achieve like whatever she's looking for within the group. But it's apparently a huge shock because they're like 90% done recording this album with her. And I was reading quotes of recent like reflecting back and then where Terry was like, never in a million years do we think she would leave. Like she was upset all the time, but we didn't know why. And that apparently like they were like begging her to stay. Like people were like the other members of the group were like, girl, like we are about to like release this new record. We're gonna have this big moment. And like she was like, fuck you guys, I'm out of here basically.

Speaker 2:
[102:10] Yeah, and it's it's unfortunate.

Speaker 1:
[102:13] It's so sad because girl groups do be ending this way a lot.

Speaker 2:
[102:16] I mean, they do be ending this way.

Speaker 1:
[102:17] Jerry, Hallowell, I'm thinking about like obviously the two dozen. I mean, like, especially when they're pre- I don't know. There's just this thing of like, I do think there can be a limitation to like what a girl group or a boy band like can do. Like when people grow up and they want different things and their desires change, and especially after they've achieved fame, like it's really hard to hold these things together for a long time. I mean, what girl groups or boy bands really endure? Like, you know, they're usually a short lived phenomenon for the most part, like with a few slight exceptions. I mean, at some point, Michael Jackson needs to go solo. At some point, Beyonce needs to go solo.

Speaker 2:
[102:48] At some point, JC. Shazay should have gone solo.

Speaker 1:
[102:50] That's right. He tried.

Speaker 2:
[102:52] Well, he did actually.

Speaker 1:
[102:53] And he did. Blowing me up with her love.

Speaker 2:
[102:55] I was going to say, I was like, she's blowing me up with her love.

Speaker 1:
[102:57] Some girls did a little bit of a problematic classic. Anyway, so they do end up releasing this third album after Dawn leaves. They re-record some of her lead vocals. Yeah. And this record comes out in 97. It does have Don't Let Go on it, technically, although it had already been out on the soundtrack to step up.

Speaker 2:
[103:16] Oh, set it off.

Speaker 1:
[103:16] Set it off. Sorry. What do you make of this record? I mean, to me, I find this missing some of the fun and spark of their early work. It just feels a little bit boring. Like it's not bad. Like they try like country vibes on a certain song. Like they're trying some stuff, but overall, it's missing the like spark of life that made Funky Divas so good to me.

Speaker 2:
[103:39] Yeah, I agree. I think that there are a few things that looking back, I'm like, oh, I would love to have known how things might have turned out if they had taken a different tack. Obviously, like re-recording the vocals and kind of like, you know, because Dawn left the group, it sucks that they were in that position. It really, really does. And like Dawn kind of left them in lurch with that because Dawn's voice is unique within the group. And so kind of like, it does feel like something is missing. These songs were probably arranged, recorded and produced with her voice in mind. And then when you kind of remove that, it's kind of like, okay, it feels like something's missing. But then also too, they like, they do the thing that to me is kind of like, I'm actually really shocked that this is something that they would do. It's not what I, how do I put it? So much of being a Pop Diva, and they're obviously a group, but they're a group of Funky Divas. But so much of being a Pop Diva is re-invention. Like we were just talking about TLC. They reinvented themselves every album. But also, it's not just about re-invention, but also a part of that re-invention is figuring out how to think about in the case of someone like Janet Jackson, let's say. She worked with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis for a long time.

Speaker 1:
[104:47] Oh my God, almost every, basically every single album.

Speaker 2:
[104:49] Exactly. And they are really good at adapting to new sounds and sort of like, you know, I mean, I mean, they're from Minneapolis and all those people. Everybody over there knows what they're doing.

Speaker 1:
[104:57] For sure.

Speaker 2:
[104:58] But she also still would find newer acts of people from other genres to collaborate with and bring in sort of like a fresher sound. Like I think about like Madonna, right?

Speaker 1:
[105:11] Oh, yeah. Well, Madonna, the queen of this.

Speaker 2:
[105:12] I mean, she's so the queen of reinvention, but also being like, you know what? I'm going to find like a 25 year old British DJ and basically live with him for like a month.

Speaker 1:
[105:19] Yes, right. Exactly. No one was better at finding a 25 year old British DJ than Madonna was.

Speaker 2:
[105:23] Exactly. Exactly. And being like, yeah, OK, yeah, I'm 40. We got to freshen up. We got to change the drapes.

Speaker 1:
[105:27] And take big risks.

Speaker 2:
[105:28] And take big, big risks. And also to Whitney, even though somebody who's somebody who's very firmly in the adult contemporary sort of R&B lane at this point, she still found interesting ways to bring in, I mean, Hello Heartbreak Hotel.

Speaker 1:
[105:43] She made her most interesting album the year after this came out with Dark Child and all of these innovative producers. She made her most interesting work at this exact juncture, like where En Vogue is veering into making their least interesting album.

Speaker 2:
[105:57] Yeah, and they stay with the same producers, which I think could be fine, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:
[106:01] I can't tell. Well, half that, half not. Half they do have these other people come in.

Speaker 2:
[106:05] That's the other thing. So that, it kind of feels like, to borrow the parlance of today, like with EV3, they got Diane Warren and David Foster, at that point.

Speaker 1:
[106:15] Diane Warren's in the fucking house.

Speaker 2:
[106:16] Exactly, I know. But at that point, it kind of feels like, we're, like I said, to borrow the parlance of today, we're reheating some early 90s nachos, you know what I'm saying? It doesn't feel fresh. It's one of these things where it's like, when you see everything laid out, but when you see sort of like the lineup that they brought in to kind of like create this new sound, it was like, oh my gosh, you guys are working with these. Felt like, yeah, it just felt so retrograde and a little bit directionless.

Speaker 1:
[106:42] Yes, exactly. You could feel they kind of threw this together in the wake of Don't Let Go and there wasn't a clear vision. There's even that song on here that's like, literally sounds like they were just making another version of Don't Let Go, like a less good, which one is that? Is that Damn I Wanna Be Your Lover?

Speaker 2:
[106:58] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[107:08] It's literally the same song, but just not as good. And it feels very self-serious, and I don't know, they always sound amazing. The singing on that Diane Warren song is fucking amazing.

Speaker 2:
[107:32] And the production is very beautiful. I mean, at this point, Foster and McElroy are obviously super season producers. And when you're talking about people like Babyface and Andrew Martin and Organized Noise and David Foster, these are people that really know what they're doing. But yeah, I just had this sort of old timey kinda, yeah, I just felt a little old and kind of blank where I was like, oh.

Speaker 1:
[107:52] And perfunctory, yeah, just kind of like, we gotta make music, so we're gonna try, and who are we without our original formation and as slightly older in the pop space? It just, I don't know, this album was disappointing to me and didn't perform that well. I mean, obviously, they tacked on Don't Let Go, which is one of their biggest hits, but the other songs didn't really perform as well as previous ones had. The record goes platinum. And then, I'm gonna be honest with you, Brittany, I had a bit of a hard time keeping track of all the different formations that have happened since this, basically. They have released three more albums. In 2000, they released this album called Masterpiece Theater, which actually has at least one banger on it, I have to say.

Speaker 2:
[108:31] Which is your banger, because there's a song on there that I really like.

Speaker 1:
[108:33] Which one do you like?

Speaker 2:
[108:34] I was gonna say Riddle. I think Riddle is a great song.

Speaker 1:
[108:36] Riddle is so good. Like Riddle should have been a hit.

Speaker 2:
[108:48] Yeah, it should have been a hit. I thought it was a really, really great song.

Speaker 1:
[108:51] I agree. That was a great discovery for me. They released a record in 2004, which is actually like impossible to find on the internet because it was released on like an indie label that maybe is like defunct at this point. And they released a record in 2018. The lineups have changed. It's unclear like what's happening. Are there any other highlights from the latter two albums that you want to bring up? I don't have a ton to say about those.

Speaker 2:
[109:10] No, I don't have a ton to say about those either. It was interesting to like, I'll say the Electric Cafe album. It felt like such a-

Speaker 1:
[109:17] Yeah, which is the 2018 one.

Speaker 2:
[109:18] Yeah, the 2018 one. It was interesting to listen to that now looking back because I'm like, oh my God, 2018, this sound was long over, like long, long, it had been over for, at that point, like six or seven years. It just felt kind of like, I didn't understand what the point quite was. And they worked with some great producers and things like that. But again, it kind of felt like it lacked focus. But I wonder if like, they basically were like, the group was formed and then they become like famous and like well regarded and they make all these hits. They have these two really big albums. And then they're like fighting over sort of like creative freedom or making more money or whatever. There's in-group like drama and tension. And it kind of feels like to me and also to another thing I'll say, is it's kind of surprising and that like even with sort of like you mentioned, prefab groups after usually the first album or two, there's at least one or two people within the group who are like, I want to learn to produce, I want to learn to write, or I want to have more of a say.

Speaker 1:
[110:12] I want to take more artistic control.

Speaker 2:
[110:14] That doesn't really necessarily happen, at least on paper, as far as I can tell. Like maybe there's more that they have to say about that. But there's not really, there's nobody that really emerges in sort of the group, like okay, like I want to have a greater sort of stake in what we're making from a creative standpoint. And so it's like between that and the fact that they, I don't think they ever really come together.

Speaker 1:
[110:34] They did a few times, but very fleetingly.

Speaker 2:
[110:36] Very fleetingly. But yeah, it wasn't like there was like a sort of a specific sort of like person.

Speaker 1:
[110:41] A tourist.

Speaker 2:
[110:42] Yeah. And yeah, that's kind of surprising because usually that sort of emerges. But I mean, I think that there was just like, they basically met, came together, started this group. And then, yeah, and then it's like some people sort of like leave to have kids and they have this drama and then boom, they're in their 30s. There is a clear lane and like an audience waiting for them to kind of like really take storm again in the late 90s. But I think that to a certain degree, like they never really able to come to, maybe perhaps because they never came together as artists together. They maybe don't have like a way to kind of like have their own sort of defined sound.

Speaker 1:
[111:12] And also who is in the group gets really confusing. I think that's another part of it is like once Dawn leaves, I literally, my head was spinning, Brittany, like trying to be like, okay, so then they hire this person and then this other person leaves and they're replacing this person with that person. And like they tore throughout the 2000s and 2010s, but like with totally different lineups and it feels really confusing who is, what is En Vogue at a certain point gets a little bit muddy. And I think that's probably why it can be like hard to settle into like an identity when you're like, what is the identity of a group where you don't even know like exactly what the group is in terms of who's in the group. I don't even know. So to me, at a certain point, I was like, okay, like I can't follow this totally anymore. Like, you know, Wikipedia has those like timelines where you can see like who you can see the lines of like, who's in there. I was like, okay, like it's like a beautiful mind on this thing. Like I don't even know what's happening.

Speaker 2:
[112:01] Cause like at one point, like I always remembered Cindy being in the group. And then at one point Cindy's even gone and it's like Rona Bennett and then like Maxine.

Speaker 1:
[112:09] It's like a whole nother group of people that are just operating. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[112:12] It's just like, oh, okay. It's just like things get switched around too much. And it's unfortunate because I wish that, I mean, I'll say, I actually do think that Dawn had a lot of potential to actually work as like a solo artist and like her work with Lucy Pearl is really, really good.

Speaker 1:
[112:28] Yeah, for sure. Maybe that's why, and just getting into this final segment about their legacy, like maybe that's why their legacy feels like less secure than even like a TO. Cause I feel like they haven't been around as a group to like secure their legacy. Like even like the Spice Girls who had such a brief moment in the sun, like they've reunited periodically. They've like, you know, at the Olympics, at these things, there's these grand moments where like they shore up their legacy. Obviously Destiny Child. I mean, they have the benefit of Beyonce being the most famous pop star in the world, but like, you know, they reunite. They come out periodically to like remind you who they are. And I just feel like En Vogue hasn't had like a unified front to be able to like secure their legacy. And that's maybe why we like speak about them less, despite having like so much success during that early 90s period.

Speaker 2:
[113:11] Totally, totally, totally.

Speaker 1:
[113:13] When you think about their legacy now, I mean, we've been talking about a lot. We've talked about their impact on Destiny Child. What do you think is the primary legacy of En Vogue, looking back now from 2026?

Speaker 2:
[113:23] I mean, when I think about En Vogue, I think about them as like a sort of modern day R&B girl group blueprint, or even like a modern day R&B girl act blueprint. Like obviously they're a group. And so like, you can see their influence in all the R&B girl groups that came after them. But I mean, obviously we talked specifically about Destiny's Child. I mean, like they're really kind of the blueprint for Destiny's Child to a certain degree.

Speaker 1:
[113:45] I completely agree.

Speaker 2:
[113:46] You can also see them in across solo acts as well. Like I think about Emory, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:
[113:51] Or like the mid-century allusions of like Christina Aguilera during Back to Basics or like all of these particular callbacks or like Amy Winehouse going back to like Motown sounds. Yeah, that kind of thing. We're reinventing those sounds for a new generation.

Speaker 2:
[114:05] Absolutely. It kind of makes me a little sad because I feel like they don't always even get like the credit from contemporary acts for being a clear inspiration for them. That feels a little disappointing. But I mean, I find I think back on them as like really threading the needle. Like to me, they really define like the perfect cross section of like grown and sexy, but also like funky and fresh. Like they were kind of out of and you can still see a little bit of like the Anita Baker rapture aesthetic in some of their earlier press promo photos or whatever, but their first album. But like they feel like they really kind of were able to hit in this moment where people were starting to like, like hip hop was becoming mainstream and like crossover, like you said, didn't require the same type of like conforming and concessions that it had for black artists, especially black female artists previously. But also like when I think people were starting to like black women's visibility was starting to like, especially like middle class black women's visibility. And like I said, I, you know, not to say anything specific about the way that any of the women grew up, but they did kind of capture this sort of like, I think middle class black, like sensibility with their image and with their music. And I absolutely do not mean that as a dig. I mean, I grew up listening to them. Like I definitely fit within that.

Speaker 1:
[115:19] It just is a fact.

Speaker 2:
[115:20] It's just a fact. But yeah, recently for another podcast, I had to go back and reread Waiting To Exhale by Terry McMillan. And that's a book, I think it came out in maybe 1991 or 1992, somewhere in that time. And so much of the themes in that book, which also had this gigantic cultural moment, that then again, swelled with like this movie that we now know as like completely iconic. But like that also marked like a big moment in like the literary world for visibility of like sort of this middle class, like aspirational and also aspiring black woman. And I feel like so much of that, it's just like the, yeah, they kind of hit at this moment where like, I don't know, the way that people, I think, thought about black women was really changing. And they were so exemplary of that. And I think that so much of that aesthetic has carried over, like what we're talking about flow now. When I look at flow, yeah, like I see so much. And again, too, obviously, they kind of, to me, are such a perfect encapsulation of like the past and like, like, you know, whether it's the Supremes, the Ronettes, the Pointer Sisters, which we didn't even talk about.

Speaker 1:
[116:18] Pointer Sisters haven't said that yet.

Speaker 2:
[116:20] Totally, totally there. Yeah. And also like looking forward. But yeah, I just think that they're like, I don't know, like they're so chic and timeless. And I wish that people really showed them respect for that. They really marked that moment in time so perfectly.

Speaker 1:
[116:33] For sure. And they had such a clear point of view. And I just feel like, you know, they had like a real, like there is an En Vogue point of view that's like very, very distinctive. And like, I think in some ways, like the experience of going back to this for me, the only thing I would add to it is that like the frozen and amber quality of the experience, like I guess again, just because like life feels so fucked up at the moment. Like there's something beautiful about going back to their version of like earnest pop feminism that I really kind of miss. Like I just miss like the simplicity, but also like the boldness of like they're staking their claim of like their empowerment, their sexual freedom, their elegance, their social consciousness, like all of that stuff. Like I'm like, take me back. Like and there's something about the way that it's frozen and amber and the fact that we don't discuss them as much as we discuss the TLC or Destiny's Child or whatever, that like allows it to be transportative in this particular way. Like it just makes, it takes me back. Like it really does in a way that like it did feel good to spend a few days just transported back to 1992.

Speaker 2:
[117:36] I know. I really, it talked in my heartstrings. It felt like, I mean, it really like it put me back in my parents' car.

Speaker 1:
[117:41] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[117:41] It put me back thumbing through like the CD, like a booklet of all their photos and everything like that.

Speaker 1:
[117:47] Like Nickelodeon, watching all of that. So like I just was like, I came out with just like a deep passion and love and remembrance of just like so much great music and such a great vibe, like good energy vibe. Okay, so last segment, Pop Pantheon. I have a thought, maybe I'll pitch it to you. We were sort of talking about this before. I kind of feel like they're pretty emblematic tier four artists in the sense that they have one really condensed moment of peak saturation. And again, I think like the complicating wrinkle is that of course they have Don't Let Go in 97, but I basically feel like En Vogue is 1990 to 1993 from Hold On to Whatta Man is their peak era. And then they've got this one errant 97 hit with Don't Let Go, which is their biggest hit. So it's not exactly like an addendum, but it feels like that's kind of the story. We're talking about probably like what? How many enduring hits do they have? Six or so huge, enduring songs?

Speaker 2:
[118:39] Which better than some.

Speaker 1:
[118:41] Oh, better than most. Listen, you get into the Pantheon at all, you're doing better than most. That feels right to me. I don't feel like they should be above TLC and the Pantheon, for instance, who is in tier three.

Speaker 2:
[118:50] I think you're absolutely right. I think that's absolutely right. I think tier four.

Speaker 1:
[118:53] Or Destiny's Child, who's also in tier three.

Speaker 2:
[118:54] Yeah, I think tier four is perfect. It's like they were really on top for a brief moment. And it was like.

Speaker 1:
[119:01] An emblematic of that moment, but haven't really, or don't really necessarily transcend that in terms of relevance.

Speaker 2:
[119:06] Yeah, like they owned the moment.

Speaker 1:
[119:07] They owned the moment.

Speaker 2:
[119:08] They owned it, but yeah, but they didn't necessarily transcend it. And it's a little, I mean, I say it with a little sadness because I feel like they could have and like.

Speaker 1:
[119:14] Yes, right. Things went awry that were outside of their control.

Speaker 2:
[119:17] Things went awry. Things went awry. But yeah, I mean, but when they listen, but when they were on top, they were on top.

Speaker 1:
[119:21] When it was good, it was good. When it was good, it was good.

Speaker 2:
[119:23] And the legacy is like, I mean, it's everywhere. I just wish, I do wish that more of the younger girls gave En Vogue their flowers. I really wish that would happen.

Speaker 1:
[119:31] Flo, we're looking at you.

Speaker 2:
[119:32] We're looking at, oh my God, please girls, because I mean, I'm always bumping Flo, but I would love for them to do a little Funky Divas. They got the vocals to actually hit it.

Speaker 1:
[119:40] Absolutely. And they've got the reference points and they've got MNEK, who knows what he's doing, not to flatter him. But anyway, Brittany, this was so, so, so much fun. Thank you so much for introducing this topic, because it was such a fun deep dive. I had so much fun doing it and then I had so much fun talking to you about it. So I really, really appreciate you being here and just thank you. I hope you'll come back and do the show again. Oh my God. Yes. Are you kidding me? I would love to come back. I had the time of my life. This is like literally a dream. Being able to talk about En Vogue for two and a half hours during my work day. Are you kidding me? We did that, girl. Yeah, we did that. We got it. You said everything you need to say. We certainly did. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. So there you have it. Pop Pantheon En Vogue certified in Tier 4. The judgment is rendered. I want to say thank you so much to the incredible Brittany Luse for being such an amazing guest, to Russ Martin for everything he does to make the show happen every week, to Laura Taylor for editing this episode, and to Alex Lobo for her help with the artwork. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening to it now. Follow us on social media at PopPantheonPod. Merch is at poppantheonpod.com. Patreon is at patreon.com/poppantheon. Gorgeous Gorgeous LA on May 2nd and in New York on May 8th. Tickets in the show notes. Until we meet again, have a wonderful life. Bye bye.