transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 1:
[02:00] You guys, welcome to another episode of Beyond The Blinds. As always, it's me, Kelli Williams. And Lorde. This is an episode I have been ready to do for about five years. But there was no perfect time until right now where Lena Dunham kind of said that this slideshow is real. If you guys aren't familiar, this episode we're gonna be talking about the Jack, Lorde, Lena slideshow that was posted to Twitter by the user BuzzKillery in 2018. And this is just so internet famous. And it's insane. If you haven't read it, I am going to link it in our show notes. But Troy, before we get into the slideshow, what are your relationship with like these three people or even Melodrama or girls or all of it?

Speaker 3:
[02:51] Well, I love girls. You and I have been girls, girls, even before this rewatch thing that's happening right now, where everybody is rewatching girls and everybody is posting clips. I've always been adamant that Girls is one of the best shows that has ever been created. It is the show of our generation, I feel. And yeah, of course, it's like a show that you can look back on and be like, that's weird. New York City with no minorities. What the fuck's going on? But I've also always looked at it as a show written by a wealthy white woman who comes from an art family who grew up going to avant-garde art shows. I don't really want Lena Dunham writing The Black Experience. To be honest with you, I don't know what that would look like. But I love girls. And I've always loved that show. And I've always been a fan of Jack and his production. And I think that he does bring out the best in a lot of people. I do think that Jack is in his Max Martin era, where we're going to look back one day and be like, wow, he did a bunch of shit. Like that's crazy. Look at all the music he's responsible for. So I've always been a fan of Jack's vibe and his sound and his work with Lana and all of that. And Lorde, I am not a Lorde super fan. I never have been. I like Lorde's music a lot. I don't know if I would ever go see Lorde live or anything like that. I've just always appreciated her music. But this era, like the Melodrama era, I think is her best work musically and so yeah, that's kind of, I'm mostly neutral about Lorde, I guess.

Speaker 1:
[04:41] So you guys know Melodrama is my all-time favorite album. I have been a Lorde girl since Pure Heroine. Lorde's probably one of my top artists. If you were to ask the music I listen to the most, it's Lorde, specifically Melodrama. But I'll also shut off Melodrama and go watch Girls, which has become one of my favorite shows. So this has just been a big part of my online life is reading the slideshow yearly. I can appreciate what Jack does for other artists, but I am not a fan of Jack. Something about him rubs me the wrong way. I can't explain it and it might be because of this fucking slideshow. I don't like him. But I do agree with you that he brings out something special in his artists.

Speaker 3:
[05:26] Yeah. And he's interesting because it's like, I think that with certain people, he's like really great. But then I think like with him and Taylor, for example, I think that they've exhausted their working relationship. They are now just making new versions of songs they've already made over and over and over and over and over. So it's crazy that he can be so creative with someone, but then feel so stale with certain people.

Speaker 1:
[05:56] Totally. And I think that's like normal.

Speaker 3:
[05:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:59] Not everyone can be us and do this weekly for as long as we have, and bring out the best in each other week by week. But this slideshow is fucking crazy. I do have some direct quotes, but most of it is me summarizing. The full title of the slideshow is Lorde and Jack Antonoff, An Emotionally Broken Journey. And it's basically a theory that's very thought out, that Jack cheated on his girlfriend at the time, who was Lena Dunham, with Lorde, who was working on her album Melodrama. And the reason why I finally wanted to do this deep dive is because there's an update to it. Again, this has been very internet famous since like 2018, and no one has ever commented on it until Lena did in her book. Her latest book, Famesick, which we will get into after we go through this insane, maybe factual, although I'm going to say alleged slideshow. So everything from here on out other than their ages and the fact that they worked on Melodrama is alleged.

Speaker 3:
[07:01] Okay, I'm very excited. I am reading Lena's book right now, but I'm not at this part yet. So I'm excited to have all this background when I finally get to the chapter about the cheating.

Speaker 1:
[07:17] And I do want to say the author, Buzz Killery, the way that this person writes is so online 2018. So just keep that in mind.

Speaker 3:
[07:27] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[07:28] And again, the slideshow will be in the notes if you want to check it out. But basically the summary. Melodrama, Lorde's second album was recorded July 2015 through January 2017, primarily from Jack Antonoff's home studio in the apartment that he shared with then-long-term girlfriend Lena Dunham. Lorde even temporarily moved into the apartment while recording. And this is from Wikipedia, quote, Taking shape after her break up from her long-time boyfriend James Lowe in 2015, Melodrama has been described as a loose concept album that explores the themes of solitude. It follows the framework of a single house party, along with events and moods that entail it. And the author of this slideshow says, quote, However, based on the timeline of events in the lives of the people involved, I don't fucking buy that for one second. And I think I'm being lied to. And they go on to both say that they believe Jack Antonoff is a total creep fuck boy, and Lorde is a fully emotional broken psycho. And that Melodrama started as a breakup album, but ended up being about their relationship journey veiled in a metaphor of a house party.

Speaker 3:
[08:42] Not an emotionally broken psycho. That was triggering.

Speaker 1:
[08:44] Whoa.

Speaker 3:
[08:46] Oh, I haven't seen those words put together in a few years.

Speaker 1:
[08:49] Troy's like, not since my last text message.

Speaker 3:
[08:54] I will say I actually, to your earlier point, I do think that Jack is like a fucking weirdo. Like I've never ever seen him at an event, at an award show, in an interview, where he isn't a total fucking weirdo. And I just don't think any man that works in the music industry is above this. Like a teenage girl that it's very like, not to say that they're comparable, but it's really like Ryan Adams. It's the same fucking story told a million times, you know?

Speaker 1:
[09:29] Yeah, and I guess I've also like, I'm not a big bleachers fan. I know we have a lot of bleachers lovers. I love that for you guys. It's just something about him really feels off. And I can't quite pinpoint it, maybe because when he was breaking up with Lena Dunham, he'll say, he said, you can finally eat in bed with someone who doesn't mind crumbs in bed. Like, my God.

Speaker 3:
[09:52] Oh my God. This is, I'm so excited to get lost in this.

Speaker 1:
[09:56] So the key players, okay. So we're going to start with Lorde. Lorde was 18 when they started working on Melodrama in 2015. She's from New Zealand. Quote, her mother has very questionable decision-making skills, most notably being chill with Lorde, dating a 24-year-old at 16 and having her daughter proofread her 40,000 word master's thesis. Her name is Sonia with a J. She's not like a regular mom. She's a cool mom.

Speaker 3:
[10:28] Well, Lorde is a, you don't raise Lorde and not have been an interesting parent.

Speaker 1:
[10:33] If you guys haven't seen Lorde's hot ones, please do. She's like an alien.

Speaker 3:
[10:39] Yeah, she is literally an alien. Like she's such a little weirdo.

Speaker 1:
[10:43] So then we have Jack Antonoff. Jack was 31 when they first started working on Melodrama together in 2015. The author also says, quote, boy from Jersey, dated Scarlett Johansson, dated Lena Dunham for five years, and Aries is as an Aries, I disown him. In 2014, he said he was desperate for kids.

Speaker 3:
[11:06] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[11:07] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[11:08] I will say that I think Jack fucks. I think that Jack fucks and in my mind, he loves going down on women. I don't know why I think that, but I just, in my spirit, I know that he will spend 12 hours going down on a woman for his own pleasures.

Speaker 1:
[11:29] I could see that. I almost see him as like, also like having a conversation with John Mayer though, where it's like kind of exhausting.

Speaker 3:
[11:41] That's a great comparison.

Speaker 1:
[11:45] So now we have Lena Dunham. And Lena was about 29 in 2015, quote, You know who Lena Dunham is. Please don't make me think about her any more than I already have to. Oh, God. The following was keeping her very busy in 2016, leaving Jack and Lorde in her home to have their summer of love. She worked on the Clinton campaign for 18 months, and she was also still working on girls. And I would say 2015 Lena was like incredibly famous. Whether you loved her or hated her, you knew who she was. Also, this author, I didn't put it in, but if you read the slideshow, she blames Jack and Lorde for Trump winning because Lena Dunham was too distracted by Jack and Lorde to focus on Hillary's campaign.

Speaker 3:
[12:33] She was outrageously famous at this time. And this is, I feel like when her fame started to like turn on her really hardcore during her, like by the time she was with Jack, her fame had turned on her.

Speaker 1:
[12:47] Yeah, she would say crazy shit, but then you'd watch girls and be like, but look at her, she's a storyteller.

Speaker 3:
[12:53] I know, we should have known that she was like on drugs with how crazy the shit was that she was saying at the time.

Speaker 1:
[13:00] Definitely. So now we have two minor key players in this whole thing. The first one being Taylor Swift. Taylor was friends with both Lorde and Lena separately prior to any of this happening. Jack co-wrote four songs on 1989, and now we know they've worked together a bunch more. But at the time, it was just these four songs. Taylor allegedly wrote You Are In Love about Jack and Lena's relationship, which is one of her most beautiful songs. And thinking about it being attached to that couple, I'm like, yeah, that one?

Speaker 3:
[13:33] That's so fascinating that his people have written songs about his relationships.

Speaker 4:
[13:39] That is weird.

Speaker 3:
[13:41] Like, that's a very unique thing, that both Taylor and Lana have written love songs about his relationship. Two different ones.

Speaker 1:
[13:55] It's very CW of them.

Speaker 3:
[13:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:59] But by 2018, it seems like Taylor is still friends with Lena and no longer friends with Lorde, according to the author. The slideshow about Taylor is insane. It says, Taylor is a mean girl. You can't sit with us in quotes. It keeps talking about how Lena Dunham was in the Bad Blood music video, but Lorde wasn't. So a whole thing.

Speaker 3:
[14:20] Taylor is at the center of everything always. My God.

Speaker 1:
[14:24] And she's still friends with Lena Dunham. And recently there, or maybe last summer, it was like Travis and Taylor get dinner with Lena Dunham. I'm like, I want to watch Travis Kelsey and Lena Dunham have a conversation.

Speaker 3:
[14:35] Oh my God. It would be so fucking funny. All the words that would go over his head. He's like holding his fork with this whole fist.

Speaker 1:
[14:45] His whole fist.

Speaker 4:
[14:46] Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[14:47] And then James Lowe, who was the ex-boyfriend who allegedly inspired Melodrama, and he's a photographer. Before we get any further, Troy, I need to know which girl's character do you think you are?

Speaker 3:
[15:03] Unfortunately, at that time in my life, I think I was a Hanna.

Speaker 1:
[15:09] I know I'm a Hanna, and that's the truth. I'm a Hanna and I'm a Miranda, and that's that.

Speaker 3:
[15:16] Would you say that you think that I'm a Hanna?

Speaker 1:
[15:19] I don't think so. I think you are more like an Elijah, but I also think you're kind of a Jessa because you tell people things directly, whether they kind of want to hear it or not.

Speaker 3:
[15:31] I think people in my life would say that I was a Jessa. I think the people around you know better than who you project it onto yourself, and I think the people in my life would say that.

Speaker 1:
[15:42] Who do you think I am? Do you think Hanna?

Speaker 3:
[15:46] I would say that you are a Hanna-Shosh combo, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[15:53] But it's always important to ask other people. You're right.

Speaker 3:
[15:56] Yeah, for sure. That's hilarious.

Speaker 1:
[16:02] Again, I truly recommend you guys read through this slideshow on your own, because it's just hilarious. The author Buzz Killery really goes in on Lorde's mom, allowing her to date a man in his 20s when she is 16. It also writes about Taylor Swift in a funny way. It's just hysterical, and we are about to get into this timeline of how this all went down.

Speaker 3:
[16:23] Okay.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 3:
[20:12] That's interesting and true.

Speaker 1:
[20:15] It is true. Always wipe your cans.

Speaker 3:
[20:17] Wipe your cans, girls. That's the 2014 version of him holding the rain out of her eyes or whatever. He got her a can of fucking pineapple juice.

Speaker 1:
[20:32] Bradley Cooper reading lowly to Sookie Waterhouse. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[20:40] So we start in early to mid 2015, Lorde and James Lowe end up breaking up roughly three years after they started dating. The split was not reported until early 2016, and served as inspiration for the 2017 album Melodrama. So then in July of 2015, Lorde begins writing slash recording Melodrama with Jack Antonoff between his apartment and studio sessions, which is...

Speaker 1:
[21:05] Yeah. It's important to remember the apartment of it all.

Speaker 3:
[21:08] So then in December, Lorde begins posting photos of Jack on social media, recording at Electric Lady Studios. And in spring of the following year, Lorde moves in with Jack and Lena to record the album. That must have been so insane, especially because Lena, now we know Lena has chronic health issues. And one of the things, I'm not at their relationship in the book yet, but I've seen in interviews and stuff, we talk about how Jack didn't plan on being a caretaker or whatever to a sick lady. So that had a huge impact. So I'm sure when young nubile baby girl Lorde was there, I mean, it must have been crazy, just such a weird vibe.

Speaker 1:
[22:02] I'm like, how do you even approach that? Could you imagine me being like, hey Blair, I am working with this amazing podcaster. She does need to move into our apartment so we can really like figure things out and I want to live in it. Blair would be like, get the fuck out of my house.

Speaker 3:
[22:19] We'll be downstairs most of the time, don't bother us.

Speaker 1:
[22:22] Make sure to knock three times in a very specific way so I know it's you.

Speaker 3:
[22:28] If there's something hanging on the door, don't open it.

Speaker 1:
[22:31] Also, Melodrama is such like an emotional album. These are deep lyrics and it's not some easy pop album. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3:
[22:42] Yeah. What's that lesbian's name that Christina and Pink worked with?

Speaker 1:
[22:48] Linda Perry.

Speaker 3:
[22:50] It's giving you Linda Perry vibes. You know what I mean? Like, we're going to make this extremely vulnerable emotional album together and trauma bond together, you know?

Speaker 1:
[23:00] But you got to move in with me and my longtime girlfriend.

Speaker 3:
[23:03] Yeah. And we're going to date. Is that okay? So yeah, in spring, she moves in with them. It's unclear the dates, but a large part of 2016, Lena is gone. She's campaigning for Hillary. So Lena is out doing political work, in quotes, saying extremely offensive things in her downtime, in quote.

Speaker 1:
[23:33] So then in April of 2016, Lorde and Jack go to Coachella together, and Lorde is inspired to write Sober and Sober 2. And this is also when Lorde has an epiphany about what melodrama is supposed to be, and the concept is centered around one house party. Or hear me out, they fucked in this kicked off Summer 16.

Speaker 3:
[23:57] I just wonder what those conversations sound like. Like he was basically dating two girls at once.

Speaker 1:
[24:04] Right, under the same roof.

Speaker 3:
[24:07] In the same fucking apartment, and the girls are friends, and they have this mutual Taylor connection. It's just odd.

Speaker 1:
[24:17] It is weird, and in our Taylor episode, there were, we don't believe all the blind items, just put that out there, but there were a lot of blinds that Taylor was like weird with Lorde, and was like allegedly inappropriate with Lorde. Whatever you want to take that as, but allegedly made Lorde uncomfortable a lot.

Speaker 3:
[24:37] Interesting. It also just must be so weird to be like the teenage. I always say like I think that Fiona Apple is like at the top, and then all these girls trickle down, like people specifically like Lorde. The young genius, the young tortured beautiful girl who's a genius and wise beyond her years, is so exploited in the music industry, and nobody ever really talks about it.

Speaker 1:
[25:07] Yeah, I completely agree, and I also just want to like pause and say, I don't blame Lorde if she hooked up with Jack Antonoff. I'm never really going to blame the 18-year-old. I'm probably going to blame the 31-year-old guy.

Speaker 3:
[25:21] Well, absolutely. I mean, and he's like cool in telling you that you're a genius, and making you feel like you're, and she is. So, you know, I totally agree.

Speaker 1:
[25:33] Right, and writing like, in my opinion, her best work.

Speaker 3:
[25:37] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[25:38] Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[25:40] So in late August 2016, Lorde comments on Instagram that she's completed writing and is now in production. And this is a quote from the slideshow in November of 2016. Lena loses the election to Trump as a direct result of Jack and Lorde's actions.

Speaker 3:
[25:57] Lena loses it.

Speaker 6:
[26:01] It's so stupid.

Speaker 3:
[26:02] It's so dumb. It's so chronically online. Like you said, chronically online person in 2018 vibe.

Speaker 1:
[26:09] Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, how I speak a lot of the time.

Speaker 3:
[26:15] Can I also just as a complete side note apologize if anybody can hear the construction happening directly under my feet. When I tell you I can feel the buzz of the chainsaw, I can feel the each nail going in underneath me. So I'm sorry if you can hear that.

Speaker 1:
[26:32] Maybe it's a task rabbit and you can use code blinds.

Speaker 7:
[26:34] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:37] So now on March 11th of 2017, this is when people started to like talk and be like, what is going on with Lorde and Jack pre this slideshow even being created. But Lorde performed Greenlight in Liability for the first time in public as the musical guest on SNL. And she was wearing a wedding dress, sitting back to back with Jack, who was playing the piano.

Speaker 3:
[27:00] She's literally wearing the veil that the little girl wears and the others before she reveals herself as an old lady. It's just in context, it's just this whole thing is wild.

Speaker 1:
[27:15] Yeah. So then we get to June of 2017 and Melodrama is released, changed my life and I'm sure yours as well.

Speaker 3:
[27:23] Yes. Absolutely. So then in December of 2017, Lena and Jack end up publicly breaking up. They had been broken up for six months. It says in parentheses, if you can't do math, that takes us to June. Thank you, girly. So then in January of 2018, Jack is reportedly dating Lorde, but Jack denies the rumors on Twitter in January of 2018, calling them, quote, dumb heteronormative gossip. Wow.

Speaker 1:
[27:57] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[27:58] Wow. You fucking douche, really? Are you kidding me? Not heteronormative gossip when it is literally true. Right. Wow. Ugh, this is why you can't trust straight men.

Speaker 1:
[28:11] It's true, you can't.

Speaker 3:
[28:13] You can't, because they'll say shit like this, and they make you think that they are trustworthy and different. And they're all the same.

Speaker 1:
[28:21] Like, I just love dumb, heteronormative gossip. You could just say dumb gossip.

Speaker 3:
[28:29] Right. Like, sir. And it's true. Like, how can you say that when it's true? You're literally doing it.

Speaker 1:
[28:36] It's like, congrats, no big words or whatever. So jump to February of 2018. Lorde and Jack were spotted getting cuddly, visiting Lorde's cool mom and other spottings in New Zealand. And then from January to March of 2018, these idiots think they can lie to me about boning, is exactly what the author says. And then in April of 2018, they basically fuck on a piano during Lorde's show at the Barclays Center, which we will talk about, because The Cut actually wrote an article about how weird it was that night.

Speaker 3:
[29:15] Ooh, I love that. If you look up like their pap photos, they were photographed together literally all the time, and they look like a couple. When they're out together, they look like they are a couple dating.

Speaker 1:
[29:33] Well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because they were also really always posting each other on Instagram. We will eventually read one of Lorde's happy birthday Instagram posts, but they really leaned on that social media being like, look how close we are, we are truly best buddies.

Speaker 3:
[29:49] Oh, God, this is so, oh my God. A man's going to be a man, isn't he? So then this is from the New York Times. This is from April 12th of 2017. When we finished breakfast at the Flame around 2 a.m., the Blizzard's first flurries were falling. We took the one back downtown and made plans for me to visit Lorde and Antonoff in the studio the following day as they tackled several incomplete songs. I heard nothing further until 5 that afternoon when I was out treasuring through the snow and she texted from the studio to disinvite me. Today is totally not going to work. I'm sorry. Been really hectic over here and some tears. LOL. The next day things had righted themselves and Lorde invited me over. The studio sat 10 stories above a block crammed with art galleries. I asked what had happened. It got grim, she said. Jack and I know each other so well by this point. We can communicate almost telepathically. But some days one of us will say something and the other's like, what did you mean by that? So then this is from the New York Times from April of 2017. I was basically speed dating different producers and songwriters in LA and hating it. And then I walked into a room with Jack Antonoff and just felt like home. I was like, oh yes, I want to be around you as long as I can and as much as possible. We were just obsessed with each other.

Speaker 1:
[31:28] What do you think about that, Troy?

Speaker 3:
[31:31] I think that she's speaking, this must be why she doesn't like doing interviews anymore.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] She's like too open.

Speaker 3:
[31:38] Yeah, because she's speaking so freely. She's speaking so honestly while trying to not say the thing. But it's like, you know, when you're so excited about something, you can't help but.

Speaker 1:
[31:51] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[31:53] It's clear what you're, it's very obvious. She's talking about her boyfriend.

Speaker 1:
[31:57] Right. If if you describe someone as they feel like home, that is more than a friendship, in my opinion.

Speaker 3:
[32:05] No, I totally agree. And I think, you know, doing something like that, like making an album like the album that they made together, it's so intimate. It's like you're doing something that you can't do with your partner. Right. Because Lena is not a singer. So you're doing this, like, extremely intimate thing with somebody that you your partner can never understand. Yeah, it's all there.

Speaker 1:
[32:35] I mean, just the act of moving her in alone is too much for me.

Speaker 3:
[32:40] I can't get over that. I cannot believe that Lena allowed that to happen.

Speaker 1:
[32:48] I know. So the next few clips are just pieces that the author took from The Spinoff, which had a Lorde interview from June 19th of 2017. Around the time you were working with Jack on Melodrama, he was working on Taylor Swift's and St. Vincent's albums. And Lorde responds, And he manages to make you feel like he's only working on your thing. The Bleacher's album is what he was working on most of the time. Those two records were really happening side by side. It's like when people have their babies around the same time and their babies are friends. We still FaceTime almost every day. When you work with someone, you sometimes think, maybe it will just be for this time. And we say we're going to keep in touch, but we won't. But we really like, I'm like, hey dickhead, what are you doing? So they keep in close contact.

Speaker 3:
[33:42] Can I also just say too, as a side note, that one of the things that I heard Lena talk about on, she just did a podcast, I want to say it was like the New York Times or something. She did like a two-part interview. And one of the things that she talked about was how, when you're in a relationship with somebody that you feel unworthy of having, like when you're like, they're more attractive than me, they are classically attractive and they chose me publicly, that you'll allow them to treat you bad, because you think that you tricked them into even being with you.

Speaker 1:
[34:21] That's crazy.

Speaker 3:
[34:22] You know? So it's like, totally. It's like you would let your insecurities like kind of steer the ship and be like, all right, like, he's probably cheating on me, but...

Speaker 1:
[34:34] And I also feel like adding that chronic illness, you know, I have like my autoimmune disease and I sometimes I'm like, is this too much? And I know she has a lot more going on than me, but I'm sure that there's even that part of her, like, who could love me in this condition?

Speaker 3:
[34:50] Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:51] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[34:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:53] So back to this Lorde interview from the spin-off. And remember, Jack and Lena were breaking up for six months. So basically when this article came out, it sounds like that's when the wheel started turning for this breakup. And Lorde is asked, is there a moment to you that kind of crystallizes who Jack is? When I came to New York, we had only written together maybe a couple of times, and we were very obsessed with each other on a creative level and as buds. I was sort of doing nothing in New York, and we did this thing where for five days in a row, we just kept having dinner every night, just getting to know each other. Sounds like dating to me. That's dating. One night, somehow, it came up that I hadn't had Captain Crunch or Cinnamon Toast Crunch or Lucky Charms. He was like, we have to do this. So we went to a bodega, got all these cereals and went back to his house in Brooklyn and did a little lineup of bowls. We tried like 20 different kinds of cereal. I still think about Cinnamon Toast Crunch all the time.

Speaker 3:
[35:55] That's dating. That is so crazy. It's also so crazy when your relationship becomes so intimate that you can't help but sound like... They probably think that they're killing it by not saying anything to Tawdry. And it's like, even the surface level stuff that you guys do together, it's erotic and intimate.

Speaker 1:
[36:17] I'm like, there's nothing more romantic to me than trying cereals you've never tried. I don't know. I love you. Like, that would be a storyline of girls with, like, Jessa and Adam.

Speaker 3:
[36:28] For sure. As a cereal lover, that sounds really sweet, by the way. If anybody wants to do that with me, just eat bowls of cereal together, I'm open to that.

Speaker 1:
[36:36] What is your favorite cereal? I'm learning so much about Troy this episode. It's...

Speaker 3:
[36:42] Well, I'm like an old man, so I really love... What the hell? With that lady in the commercial, when she says, like, we make a lot of cereal here.

Speaker 4:
[36:50] I can't think of a...

Speaker 3:
[36:52] Oh, my God.

Speaker 1:
[36:53] Cornflakes?

Speaker 3:
[36:54] Oh, this is going to be a problem. Oh, my God. What's your favorite cereal? I'll think of it.

Speaker 1:
[37:00] I mean, I truly could never buy Cocoa Pebbles ever again, because how much I love to eat Cocoa Pebbles. Like, I could eat bowl after bowl, but every once in a while, I'll treat myself to, like, a little thing of lucky charms as, like, my little munchies for the night, or I do love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. I was like, I'm still buying it. If I get shrimp tails, it is what it is.

Speaker 3:
[37:29] If I get shrimp tails. It was honey bunches of oats.

Speaker 1:
[37:34] Honey bunches of oats.

Speaker 3:
[37:35] I fucking love me some honey bunches of oats, and I love all the flavors, the cinnamon, the ones with nuts, like, oh my god.

Speaker 1:
[37:44] I listed off like every single one except honey bunches of oats. But I also, I love a Raisin Bran. I love a Raisin Bran Crunch.

Speaker 3:
[37:55] The Raisin Bran Crunch, that's the one that has the granola and the raisins. Oh, that's like, like, their Honey Bunches of Oats. Raisin Bran, like, made one, and that is top tier.

Speaker 1:
[38:10] Yeah. Raisin Bran gets too much hate for my liking.

Speaker 3:
[38:13] I agree. I agree. It's associated with elderly, and I think that's unfair.

Speaker 1:
[38:18] Anyway, back to Lorde, Lena, and Jack. If you're following along, we're on the slideshow. We're now on slide 14 out of 30.

Speaker 3:
[38:29] So now we are entering the era of Lorde moving in with her sister wife, Lena. Ella and Jack worked on most of this album in our little apartment, and it was a privilege to watch her create and feed her little snacks. Lena wrote on Instagram, this was linked in a Hello Giggles article from March 17th of 2017. The post has since been deleted. Quote, Lena's not really an award-winning cook. There were a lot of postmates, but she would come in and be like, you're incredible. You're the greatest people. I love you. Goodbye. This quote is not credited. And then it also says, he's an amazing person and truly so strange. He's like my sibling now. He's like my work husband. Lena will pop down the hall and be like, how are you guys doing? And we'll be like, good. That was Lorde on Seth Meyers. Girl.

Speaker 1:
[39:27] And on this specific slide, Buzz Killery says, banging your man in your house and insulting your cooking. My God.

Speaker 3:
[39:37] It is, the disrespect is crazy. Like only a young girl could do such a thing.

Speaker 1:
[39:42] And Lena Dunham being like, I brought snacks. And Lorde being like, your cooking actually sucks. We never ate it. And please stay out of our studio together. Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[39:54] Oh, my God. The disrespect is on another level.

Speaker 1:
[40:00] So then slide 15 is about Lorde and Taylor's on again, off again relationship. And again, this is Beyond The Blinds. And Taylor's allegedly was like in love with Lorde, and very like protective, but also like no one else can be your friend with Lorde, which I don't know if I fully believe, if I'm being honest.

Speaker 3:
[40:19] You don't believe that she was like that with her?

Speaker 1:
[40:21] I don't know. I do know that they spent a lot of time together, but I don't know if it was more like a Sabrina Carpenter thing where it's like, you're my pet.

Speaker 3:
[40:31] My new Polly Pocket.

Speaker 1:
[40:33] Yeah. But it said in 2014, Lorde came to the defense of Taylor against Diplo when Diplo tweeted, Get Taylor a booty. And Lorde replied, Diplo, should we do something about your tiny penis while we're at it? I miss celebrity mess like that.

Speaker 3:
[40:54] Oh, me too. Like, it's changed so much in such a short time. You don't really think about it.

Speaker 1:
[41:01] And I think that's kind of why I liked Alex Cooper being like, Alex Earl, what is it? Talk to me. What's going on? Right. And then in 2017, Lorde, quote, left Taylor's squad. And by February of 2018, Lorde was allegedly becoming closer with Katy Perry than Taylor Swift. And then in March of 2018, Lorde covered Love Lockdown and Runaway at her Chicago concert. So people assumed that that was a jab at Taylor.

Speaker 3:
[41:33] Wow. God, this is so like when you actually think about it, to think that she was like fucking him probably in the studio, in that house, while Lena is like bedridden. Like it's so crazy. This is like a movie.

Speaker 1:
[41:51] And Taylor's like baking in the kitchen for Lena Dunham, and Lorde's locked in a studio with Jack.

Speaker 3:
[41:59] Oh my God. That is crazy.

Speaker 1:
[42:03] So then again, Lena and Jack break up, and this is from Us Weekly. The Girls Creator 31 isn't shocked by her former love's new romance. Quote, by the end, Lena knew he was probably dating someone else, but he didn't cheat. And the new romance was like a different musician, not Lorde. He was saying, I forget her name, but allegedly he was dating a musician not named Lorde.

Speaker 3:
[42:27] Okay.

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Speaker 3:
[44:27] So then the Jack and Lorde dating rumors become public. This is a quote, it looks like this is from Billboard. There was talk that the collaborators were secretly together, even before Antonoff's breakup with Lena Dunham was official. When Lorde admitted to Billboard that they FaceTime every day, and are quote, obsessed with each other, it certainly didn't help their case for a purely platonic relationship. Most recently, the duo was spotted embracing on Lorde's hometown of Auckland, New Zealand, before their street side cuddle. A source said that the two looked very cozy at Clive Davis' Grammy's party in New York, and it was quote, very obvious that they were dating. This is why I said, I think it's like, if you look up their pap photos, it is so clear that they're in a relationship. Like, this one photo even in particular of them in New Zealand together is like, it's so intimate.

Speaker 1:
[45:24] Right, she brought him home to show him off and have him meet Sonia, the cool mom.

Speaker 3:
[45:29] He made it to the hometowns. If this was Bachelor, he made it to the hometowns.

Speaker 1:
[45:35] So Lorde also wrote an incredibly long happy birthday post to Jack, and I'm going to read it now.

Speaker 3:
[45:42] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[45:43] Happy birthday to one of the best. So happy to know you and annoy you daily, and so thankful to be in a long creative conversation with you about what it means to be alive. Ours is a relationship that will be special and vital for a long time, I'm thinking. So many memories all over the world in studios, in restaurants and at concerts, laughing, crying, parentheses me, drinking all of the juices, and occasionally disgusting you by walking barefoot through Brooklyn. You make a killer soft-boiled egg and you're so fucking patient. And I love all of your weird outfits, slash haircuts, slash beard phases. I have some very grim photos, but only posted the cute ones, except for this face swap, which is literally the worst thing I've ever seen. You're the top. And I'm so proud that today, you have released the first song from an excellent album, JA plus EYO forever and always.

Speaker 3:
[46:43] Oh, my God. Like, this is actually insane. I think this is just the plot of Housemaid. I'm like, Lorde is giving Sydney?

Speaker 1:
[47:00] I also just wanted to read the full tweet of the heteronormative gossip, just him denying it. And he tweeted this one month before the photos of them being, like, in her hometown together came out. So he was trying to get ahead of it, obviously.

Speaker 3:
[47:18] Got it. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[47:19] Normally, I would never address rumors, but I resent having the most important friendships in working relationships in my life reduced to dumb heteronormative gossip. Those relationships are deeply important and sacred. With that said, I'm not seeing anyone. Period. LOL.

Speaker 3:
[47:36] And the whole time, this man was lying.

Speaker 1:
[47:39] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[47:40] Wow. God. Even the soft boys, you can't trust them.

Speaker 1:
[47:46] I feel like especially the soft boys.

Speaker 3:
[47:49] I know. A soft boy will actually destroy my life. Like my death will be because of a soft boy. Just know that. I don't know who. But he's coming. He's coming. Blame a soft-faced boy.

Speaker 1:
[48:03] So now we're going to talk about the April 4th, 2018 concert where Lorde brings Jack on stage. And it's been a while since we've done Beyond The Blinds theater. So the cut, like I mentioned, wrote an article about Jack and Lorde flirting on stage. I will play the role of Mariah Smith if you will be Lindsay Weber.

Speaker 3:
[48:24] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[48:25] Jack who's chewing gum and looks like a kid in a candy store seeing Ella. The way he called her Ella so many times was a hate crime.

Speaker 3:
[48:33] I know. She was like, you're chewing gum? And he was like, babe, he didn't say that, but could you hear him saying that?

Speaker 1:
[48:42] He might as well have.

Speaker 3:
[48:44] They were full on flirting for an arena of people. People even reported some knee stroking.

Speaker 1:
[48:51] The minute Jack came out, Lorde was practically spread eagle on his lap.

Speaker 3:
[48:57] He revealed she eats bodega sushi, which I honestly loved.

Speaker 1:
[49:01] And she walks barefoot on New York City streets.

Speaker 3:
[49:04] And then she faced him directly because he was playing guitar as she sang at him, gazing into each other's eyes.

Speaker 1:
[49:12] Imagine this being a full article of them just talking about how these two clearly wanted to fuck each other on stage.

Speaker 3:
[49:19] Well, their performances, too, were erotic, sensual. Like, oh my God, sex.

Speaker 1:
[49:28] So at this point in the PowerPoint, they do break down a few songs from Melodrama. They do Greenlight, Sober, The Louvre, Liability, Hard Feeling Slash Loveless, Sober 2, Writer in the Dark, and Lorde also explains these lyrics. So her explanation of these lyrics are also on each slideshow sheet. But one that really stuck out to me was her talking about hard feelings slash loveless. I was basically speed dating different producers and songwriters in LA and hating it. And then I walked into a room with Jack and it felt like home. And I was like, oh yeah, I wanna be around you as long as I can and spend as much time as possible with you. We were just obsessed with each other. So we actually read that quote a little earlier because she said those exact same words to The New York Time as she said to The Spinoff.

Speaker 3:
[50:21] This is actually insane. Now I wanna make a movie about this and make it extremely loosely based on them.

Speaker 1:
[50:28] She's the Sidney Sweeney of Postmates.

Speaker 3:
[50:34] She's like, thank you so much Lena for bringing us food.

Speaker 1:
[50:39] And then she dumps it in the trash. She's like, let's order Postmates, bitch.

Speaker 3:
[50:43] She can't cook anyways.

Speaker 1:
[50:44] Now Troy, would you read the final slide just because it is truly out of control?

Speaker 3:
[50:52] Okay. It says, can old dudes please stop praying on Lorde? It is a confusing timeline, but as far as I can tell, Lorde and Jack start fucking April 6th, 2016, which carries through the summer. Lots of drama, lots of hate sex, lots of pouring out of hearts. Lena gets back from campaigning, more drama. Lots of Jack saying, we're not doing this anymore, but in the immortal words of La La Kent, once the D has entered one of your holes, it's very easy for it to re-enter. Words I live by. At some point, the breakup is for an extended period of time, and Lorde is very sad. But when the album is, I'm so sorry if you guys, can you hear that under me?

Speaker 1:
[51:38] A little bit, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[51:40] I'm so sorry. I'm directly underneath a buzz saw, literally.

Speaker 1:
[51:45] It's Jack trying to get in, so we don't want to push this.

Speaker 3:
[51:49] He peaks his head up and fixes his glasses. At some point, the breakup is for an extended period of time, and Lorde is very sad. But when the album was released June 2017, Jack and Lena quote, begin the process of breaking up, which cumulates in a public breakup in December of 2017. These assholes have been quote, together since January of this year and think they're being sneaky. Lena got to keep Taylor Swift and the friend breakup, which is, I'm sure, which I'm sure is a win. I'm angry at everyone involved.

Speaker 1:
[52:21] Which I'm not sure is a win. It's just which I'm not sure is a win.

Speaker 3:
[52:26] I was gonna say, like, I don't know if, and then it says, I'm angry at everyone involved, but especially Sonia, the mama.

Speaker 1:
[52:36] And just so you know, there is a dumb heteronormative gossip starter pack where this author has posted photos of Lena and Hillary, Cinematose Crunch. I've had enough, Jamie, I'm dumping you. You have made me have Depression, Coachella. This author also added the Summer 16 song by Drake was about Jack and Lorde hooking up. She added the book, The Ethical Slut. She has a picture of a dole pineapple juice, Postmates. And then under it is a picture of Lena Dunham frowning. It is just, this is a beautiful, incredible, two online thing to look at. And also the very final slide is just like a spider graph of Lorde. And there's even like a Kanye West and James and Hillary and cause of presidency. It's Lorde and Jack hooking up. That's why Lena Dunham couldn't focus on the campaign.

Speaker 3:
[53:39] And we lost because of this. Yeah. I'm obsessed. This, there's so much about this that I like didn't know. And now when I get to that chapter of this book, I'm going to be floating off of the ground.

Speaker 1:
[54:01] Well, there is the 2026 update from from her book. So this is from the cut in FameSick. Dunham writes in detail about her relationship with Antonoff and how it ended. At some point, an unnamed teen pop star who's become attached to Antonoff enters the narrative. When Dunham was visiting her dying grandmother in the hospital in the summer of 2016, Antonoff FaceTimed her from his home recording studio where he was, as Dunham puts it, quote, and sconced with a teen pop star I was too oblivious to be jealous of. In the ensuing weeks while Dunham was dealing with pain from what would later be identified as a large hemorrhaging cyst, she writes, all I could do was rock back and forth in the bathtub, trying to stay out of the way of Jack and the young singer. Lorde and Antonoff were working on Melodrama together for most to 2016, an era that Dunham documents in Fame 6, since it coincides with her rapping girls. She was dealing with a lot of health problems at the time, which were probably not helped by the fact that there was a young starlet hanging out with her partner in her own house. My boyfriend was locked in the back room with a teen pop star, whose needs seemed as massive and complex as my own, and who called me Aunt Lena when I hobbled into the kitchen with a walker to grab another bottle of green tea Dunham shares.

Speaker 4:
[55:30] Aunt Lena?

Speaker 1:
[55:35] How disrespectful. How fucking disrespectful.

Speaker 3:
[55:40] The way I would beat him with my cane would become even more auntie.

Speaker 1:
[55:45] I'd be like, you want to see an aunt?

Speaker 3:
[55:47] Yeah, literally.

Speaker 1:
[55:49] You're 18, I can hit you with it. So at one point during this period, Dunham returns to her apartment to find the teen pop star quote, sprawled across our sectional reaping into Jack's lap. Well, he tells her, your teens are for experimenting. Later when Dunham suggested to Antonoff that his relationship with the singer was striking an odd note and that she wanted something from him he couldn't give, he tells her, you're just mad because she doesn't want to be your friend. Dunham concedes that this is true. She's like, that is true. I do want her to be my friend. But personally, I'm ready to physically fight Jack Antonoff. Dunham shares that her relationship with Antonoff began to really come apart in 2017. Around the time she fell into a flirtation and eventually sexual relationship with someone she knew from her childhood. She writes that while she had never stopped flirting with people, she had always observed careful boundaries. If I'd wanted to look, perhaps I may have seen that Jack was not observing them as closely as I was, Dunham notes. She then acknowledges that the Internet made some pretty amazing PowerPoints on the issue of Antonoff's alleged boundary crossing. In fact, said PowerPoints again, she does not mention Lorde or Buzz Killery by name, were quote, so convincing they had me rethinking events that I myself had been present for. She was so impressed that she recalls actually DMing the person behind the PowerPoint in order to prove I was in on it, that I could take a joke and that I wasn't in fact morphing into a pile of packing peanuts. Instead of a warm reception, Dunham received an invitation to be on a podcast, which she declined.

Speaker 3:
[57:36] Isn't it so crazy when you are faced with the fact that celebrities use the same Internet as us?

Speaker 1:
[57:44] I think about it all the time. I think when it was really glaring was the Jennifer Lawrence 70 questions with Vogue, when she said, What's the craziest thing you ever heard about yourself? And she looked directly in the camera room and was like, Dad, I fucked Harvey. And I was like, Ooh, I feel like she's talking directly at Troy and I.

Speaker 3:
[58:01] I always feel it when I see people, like celebrities who are not afraid to publicly show the stuff that they like on Instagram and TikTok, like when they actively comment a lot.

Speaker 1:
[58:14] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[58:15] And it's like, wow, me and Julia Fox have the same fucking algorithm. Like she's just watching all the same videos as me and commenting on everything I watch. It's really weird. Like it's weird how not anonymous social media is now. Like you can't even, it's just, I don't know, it's kooky. Like Lena was reading this.

Speaker 1:
[58:36] Right. And DM, if I got a DM being like, I saw this PowerPoint you put together, I would just like block them. I'd be like, okay, thank you. I'm glad you saw it. But the first time I moved to New York, I was posting like a lot of girls content on TikTok and a lot of like clips. And Phoebe Tonkin liked every single video. And I was like, oh my God, like that's crazy.

Speaker 3:
[58:57] It's so, like that is so wild to me. I will say I miss anonymous social media so much.

Speaker 1:
[59:05] I agree with you. But I also miss like the activity page of Instagram. So I'm on both ends of the spectrum.

Speaker 3:
[59:12] Agreed. God, I forgot about the activity page. Demi Lovato unfollowed rumor Valderrama. Like I didn't need to know that, but thank you.

Speaker 1:
[59:21] Exactly. So yeah, so this is one of our, I would say shorter episodes, but I do think that this is a part of like internet lore that is at least very important for me.

Speaker 3:
[59:32] Now, this is awesome. Like because I didn't really remember, like I said, I didn't remember any of this shit and I haven't reread the PowerPoint. And again, I'm like reading the book. So I like having the context. And it's also just so interesting to like, like I like that album and I've seen all these people now posting like songs from the album or like music videos and stuff and being like, can you believe this was about Jack? And I'm not convinced that the whole album is about Jack. I think that's a little extreme, but it is crazy to rethink some of these lyrics and stuff.

Speaker 1:
[60:11] Yeah, and I think it's hard to deny that they weren't in a relationship with each other at least at one point.

Speaker 3:
[60:17] Wow. They were fucking under. They were having a relationship in his, like the house that you shared with his current. It's just too much. It's so like Housewives vibes or something.

Speaker 1:
[60:36] All I could think is when I read that cut article about her finding like basically Lorde crying into Jack's lap, it's like Ariana on the couch when Naya Rivera got home with Big Sean.

Speaker 3:
[60:52] No, literally, it's giving me that. This needs to be turned into a TV show immediately. Lena, yes, write this. It's fucking awesome.

Speaker 1:
[61:06] I'll play you. Okay.

Speaker 3:
[61:09] And I'll play Jack.

Speaker 1:
[61:14] So yeah, this was this was a fun deep dive to like revisit. And the slideshow is linked and it's hysterical. Like I didn't. Yeah, it's, it's a wild ride.

Speaker 3:
[61:40] God, what a crazy thing to have been made about you.

Speaker 1:
[61:44] And to have Lena Dunham reach out directly to you.

Speaker 3:
[61:47] Uh-huh, and you know she read it word for word.

Speaker 1:
[61:52] And she's like texting her group chat, whoever may be in that group, Taylor Swift's in it. She's like, what do you think of this?

Speaker 3:
[62:00] Yeah, because she definitely, oh, God, that would also freak me out too. Like, beyond Lena, it's like the people that she's talked about this with. Oh!

Speaker 1:
[62:08] In the cut article saying that Lorde was spread eagle on Jack's lap. All of it's crazy.

Speaker 3:
[62:15] Oh my God. Amazing.

Speaker 1:
[62:19] So yeah, thank you guys for letting me get this out of my system, and I hope you learned something.

Speaker 3:
[62:24] Yeah, thanks for putting it together. This was awesome.

Speaker 1:
[62:27] And yeah, we'll talk to you guys next week. Next week will be a Lou Perlman episode. I'm just giving you guys a heads up right now. That's what it's going to be.

Speaker 3:
[62:37] And we love you very much, and please shh, be quiet. Please, please, please, please, love you.

Speaker 1:
[62:45] And if someone makes you snacks, don't publicly say that they fucking suck. I know you hate that person.

Speaker 3:
[62:54] Especially when you're their partner.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 7:
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