transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:03] Hello, welcome. It's Hard Lore time. How are you doing, Bo?

Speaker 2:
[00:06] I'm doing so good. Colin, where are we today?

Speaker 1:
[00:09] We are in Dallas, Texas, which is the reason that the president is dead.

Speaker 2:
[00:13] That's right. Kennedy's bullet-ridden body.

Speaker 1:
[00:17] Shot dead in the street, right there where the X marks the spot. And we're here as, you know, fans of history, as lifelong Americans, whether anybody likes it or not, to get to the bottom of this great, great mystery.

Speaker 2:
[00:34] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[00:35] And you know, you're the resident history buff, so tell us about the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

Speaker 2:
[00:41] Sure. I thought you'd never ask. Been waiting for this my whole life. We're standing here in Dealey Plaza, named after just a business, Texas business man, Right, at one point. What we have over there is the Texas School Book Depository. It's not a museum. You can see, and I'll point to it, Steven, that not top right, but just under is the supposed sniper's nest. For one, Lee Harvey Oswald.

Speaker 1:
[01:35] Allegedly.

Speaker 2:
[01:36] Allegedly. Behind us here is the Grassy Knoll, often referred to as a location of a potential second shooter, as you may know. Over here, we have the Dell Tech Building, which at one point was a kind of a low-grade jail. Then over yonder is the Records Building, which is also believed to be a potential, because you can see the clear shot straight here.

Speaker 1:
[02:00] Oh, yeah. This is the spot.

Speaker 2:
[02:02] Triangulation of Fire, as they call it. The big- Oh, go ahead. I was going to say the last big thing is believed to be at that picket fence that my beautiful girlfriend is now walking past, a direct line of sight. And we'll get some different angles from where we are, but this is basically the layout of Dealey Plaza on that fateful day in November 22nd, 1963.

Speaker 1:
[02:26] A warm day, much like today, in March. Now, Bo, how many shots were fired at the president?

Speaker 2:
[02:33] So that's, of course, the thing of contention. According to the Warren Commission, which, by the way, Earl Warren, who was the Chief Justice, was fired by Kennedy some years prior when he was working for the CIA, as well as Warren Dulles, who was part of the Warren Commission as well. That report says three.

Speaker 1:
[02:48] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[02:50] Some people believe more. There was 212 people who were questioned about that.

Speaker 1:
[02:53] Right.

Speaker 2:
[02:54] The majority said three coming from the school book depository. A few more said the Dell Tech building, and around 70 said from the Pickett Fence. But here's the issue with that.

Speaker 1:
[03:05] The trajectories just don't add up.

Speaker 2:
[03:07] Well, the problem is truly the bullet count, right?

Speaker 1:
[03:09] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[03:10] So what we have is we know there was a headshot of Kennedy famously seen in Frame 2... something.

Speaker 1:
[03:16] Of the famous Zapruder film.

Speaker 2:
[03:17] Of the Zapruder film. Who was there. Which was shot right there. So that's one. One missed. One hit the curb and struck a guy over there by the name of James Tague. He was standing over there. He got hit in the cheek by either actual bullet shrapnel or concrete from the curb.

Speaker 1:
[03:34] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[03:34] The curb was actually removed, analyzed. What'd he say? What'd he say?

Speaker 1:
[03:39] He said, I did it.

Speaker 2:
[03:41] The curb was removed and was analyzed by the FBI some years later to see if they could, and it was not definitive. And then that leaves one bullet to cause an entry wound into Kennedy's back out of his neck, then into governor, Democratic governor, John Connolly went in through his back, hit his rib, came out, hit his wrist and then buried itself in his thigh. And then was then supposedly found on a Gurdian parkland about four miles away, in almost pristine condition. That's, they say pristine, but really what does that mean? But bullets get crazy. Bullets don't really look like that when they hit bones. So this then becomes known as the magic bullet, single bullet theory, and that's the problem.

Speaker 1:
[04:22] Big problem.

Speaker 2:
[04:23] Therein lies the problem.

Speaker 1:
[04:24] But the final shot.

Speaker 2:
[04:25] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[04:26] Exploded his dome.

Speaker 2:
[04:28] He got domed.

Speaker 1:
[04:29] In ways, he got f**ked, for lack of a better word. Well, the first shot, the second shot f**ked him. The second, the third shot murked him.

Speaker 2:
[04:39] I would say, yes, very well, very well. Although we don't know if one, so Tague said he believed the second shot is what got hit him. So it might have been the first f**k the third murk.

Speaker 1:
[04:49] Ah.

Speaker 2:
[04:50] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[04:51] The Zabruder film shows a near a front entry.

Speaker 2:
[04:57] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[04:57] Which is not possible with that being the side of, the alleged side of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Speaker 2:
[05:05] So it's tricky because-

Speaker 1:
[05:07] His head is blown back.

Speaker 2:
[05:09] But shortly before it's blown back, there's a sudden, he kind of like, so it's weird. It's hard to say.

Speaker 1:
[05:16] With such a, with that bullet velocity from that direction.

Speaker 2:
[05:20] Right. It was a Mannlicher Carcano, a World War II Italian gun, very low caliber, very slow bullet speed. Whereas, and we'll talk about the fella who I think may have pulled that trigger, supposedly using a much larger caliber, much faster weapon that simply exploded. There's also people who think that two may have hit him in the head at the same time. It's crazy.

Speaker 1:
[05:43] We'll never know.

Speaker 2:
[05:44] But we're going to get to the bottom of the whole game.

Speaker 1:
[05:45] We're going to check some stuff out.

Speaker 2:
[05:46] You can see someone up in that 6th floor right now. That's the window. I said 5th before I was wrong. It's the 6th floor where that person is. That's why that window is even open. It's so that people can kind of get a look at it, right? Yeah. Now here is the big thing, Steven. Originally, the parade route was just going there. This is all since been kind of rerouted traffic-wise. The parade was not going to swing around Houston to Elm. It was going to bypass and continue on this to go under that triple overpass.

Speaker 1:
[06:15] Which that's not a great...

Speaker 2:
[06:17] Not a great shot.

Speaker 1:
[06:18] And also, it was six minutes behind schedule, I believe.

Speaker 2:
[06:21] It was behind schedule.

Speaker 1:
[06:23] Which he's ready in a spot that would not be great for that, for the original route.

Speaker 2:
[06:32] Right.

Speaker 1:
[06:33] And it's late and he would have no way of knowing that.

Speaker 2:
[06:36] Imagine how bad he had to pee.

Speaker 1:
[06:38] Oh, horrible. I mean, this was the greatest stress of his life, if he was involved. So would this be the tree that he had to wait for? Because he famously mentioned having to wait until the car passed the tree to take the shot. So that would be the, is that the original tree?

Speaker 2:
[06:57] Yeah. Now the thing is, they're Texas Live Oak. This happened in November. It's March at the time of filming.

Speaker 1:
[07:03] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[07:04] These trees are in bloom now. It loses its leaves by that time.

Speaker 1:
[07:08] So it was smaller and much easier to-

Speaker 2:
[07:11] It's plausible.

Speaker 1:
[07:11] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[07:12] I'm very, I try to be as objective as possible.

Speaker 1:
[07:14] I like it.

Speaker 2:
[07:15] I don't buy the full story, but I don't necessarily think it was, there's people think it was the driver. People think there's a storm drain over here. There was someone in the storm drain. There's all kinds of whack.

Speaker 1:
[07:25] People think it's the driver. Ridiculous.

Speaker 2:
[07:26] Ridiculous.

Speaker 1:
[07:28] And then Jackie, poor Jackie reaching for, you see this, these images of her reaching behind and many think she's emotionally reaching for, for John himself, but she's reaching to gather the scattered pieces of his skull and brains.

Speaker 2:
[07:45] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[07:46] Just to get it all back, see what can be saved.

Speaker 2:
[07:49] So some of the last words that were said was the wife of Governor Connolly said, well, it's something along the lines of, I have it written down, I can't remember it exactly. She said something along the lines of, well, Mr. President, surely they can't convince you that you're not loved in Dallas. Because Dallas was very right wing. Kennedy was very left wing at the time. He was not a well-loved guy, obviously. And his last words were, no, they surely can't. Meaning he's getting a nice reception.

Speaker 1:
[08:18] I'm bulletproof.

Speaker 2:
[08:19] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:20] Tell me about the car. Because I've read some aspects of safety precautions were removed.

Speaker 2:
[08:28] Yeah, the bubble top. There was a bubble top, a lot like the Pope Mobile. There was just a protective glass that should have been over the entire limousine that would have protected them. That had been used prior, but was also taken off Eisenhower. We're right around with it, not on. He's a little bit more of a neutral guy. He's a war hero, the Supreme General. The other thing too, being objective, is a lot of people think the bullet theory doesn't make sense because if we're sitting like this, the bullet's not going to do all that. Kennedy was actually raised and a little off center from Connolly, so it changes the way the trajectory.

Speaker 1:
[09:03] One in a billion shots, really.

Speaker 2:
[09:05] If he pulled that off.

Speaker 1:
[09:06] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[09:07] Which by the way, he was a Marine prior to all this. Oswald was a confirmed Marine. He has a whole backstory about how he, he had a really rough childhood. He joined the Marines. He defected to Russia.

Speaker 1:
[09:19] He was attempting to defect to Russia, basically.

Speaker 2:
[09:21] Basically, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:22] For several weeks before the alleged incident, he spent weeks in Mexico City with a gentleman known as El Mexicano. Gathering, going to parties, chatting with the local folks, saying things like, wouldn't it be crazy if we killed Kennedy? And attempting to get a Soviet passport and a Mexican passport?

Speaker 2:
[09:46] Well, he was in Russia.

Speaker 1:
[09:48] He was a confirmed defector, returned to the States and was not penalized at all.

Speaker 2:
[09:54] However, J. Edgar Hoover, when asked about it, said, We have no way of confirming if that person actually was Lee Harvey Oswald. The voice and the images, there's a picture of him in front of the embassy in Mexico City, doesn't look anything like him. J. Edgar Hoover said that, which is crazy. Because wouldn't he say, yeah, we got him.

Speaker 1:
[10:14] Yeah, we got him.

Speaker 2:
[10:15] You know? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[10:16] Absolutely true.

Speaker 2:
[10:17] But anyway, where I was going is Lee Harvey Oswald, he had first passed his rifle test as a marksman, which is about a B. It goes, oh no, I'm sorry. He was a sharpshooter. That's the middle. Experts, the best marksman, the lowest you could be without being kicked out.

Speaker 1:
[10:33] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[10:34] His second testing was a marksman. He scored really badly. So he wasn't necessarily a bad shot, but he was not a great shot.

Speaker 1:
[10:40] Not a crack shot. He wasn't the guy. If you're going to get one guy to do it, it wasn't him.

Speaker 2:
[10:46] That's the thing. Then of course, afterwards, he supposedly fled by 1233. So the shooting happened at 1230. On the dot, there used to be a clock. People noted that when Kennedy's motorcade turned, it went from 29 to 30. No, there was like a semi-digital kind of clock. And it turned to 1230 as soon as he turned the corner. By 1233, Lee Harvey Oswald was gone. He was going to his boarding house where he was living. On his way after he stopped there, he got into a conversation with Officer JD. Tippett, shot the man three times in the chest and then shot him in the temple. He then fled and went to a theater, the Texas Theater.

Speaker 1:
[11:30] Didn't pay for a ticket, which is why he was flagged down.

Speaker 2:
[11:33] Yeah, and then 15 cops showed up.

Speaker 1:
[11:36] And this is all, this is around what, what was it, 4 p.m. or 6 p.m.?

Speaker 2:
[11:40] When he got apprehended, it was within two hours of the shooting, it's like 330.

Speaker 1:
[11:44] So I, and allegedly, that was 20 something minutes after news had spread in Britain, with a full page spread about his whole life.

Speaker 2:
[11:59] Yes, and I think in the Oliver Stone movie, they say New Zealand as well.

Speaker 1:
[12:02] New Zealand.

Speaker 2:
[12:02] It was, English speaking countries had a profile on Lee Harvey Oswald, but then-

Speaker 1:
[12:06] Before he was apprehended.

Speaker 2:
[12:11] It's ridiculous.

Speaker 1:
[12:11] Let's go look at some stuff, Ron.

Speaker 2:
[12:13] Let's look at some stuff.

Speaker 1:
[12:14] What would the curb be?

Speaker 2:
[12:15] The curb, you don't really know because they've since redone it.

Speaker 1:
[12:21] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[12:21] So it's a little tricky. There was an X.

Speaker 1:
[12:25] So if it was first- Oh, there's that one.

Speaker 2:
[12:28] Then-

Speaker 1:
[12:29] So is that first shot?

Speaker 2:
[12:32] Ah. Boy, now that I'm looking at it, yeah, I think you're right. I don't think I noticed.

Speaker 1:
[12:35] That would be bam.

Speaker 2:
[12:37] The throat.

Speaker 1:
[12:38] Blam.

Speaker 2:
[12:39] Blammy. Merk. Very good. Very good. Yeah, so- He was working at this schoolbook depository stacking books for $1.25 an hour.

Speaker 1:
[12:52] Lee.

Speaker 2:
[12:52] Lee.

Speaker 1:
[12:54] So it's a very familiar site for him.

Speaker 2:
[12:57] Very much so.

Speaker 1:
[12:57] Wow. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[12:58] He also on his way out, stopped to have a Coke.

Speaker 1:
[13:02] On his way out?

Speaker 2:
[13:03] On his way out of the building, he was spotted drinking Coca-Cola.

Speaker 1:
[13:05] Dude, that doesn't sound like a guilty man.

Speaker 2:
[13:07] No, it doesn't. The boss, I think his name is Truly, his last name is Truly, said he wasn't out of breath. He wasn't freaking out. He was calmly walking around. Just like, yeah, that's crazy. We'll cross in a second.

Speaker 1:
[13:19] I don't like it.

Speaker 2:
[13:20] So we're closer to the Knoll now. This is called The Grassy Knoll.

Speaker 1:
[13:22] This is it. It's much smaller than you would think in person.

Speaker 2:
[13:25] Abraham Zapruder stood about there, up on the stairs. No, he had the only footage of this that was owned by Time Warner and was not ever released until I think the 80s or 90s by Geraldo Rivera. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:46] That scumbag did one thing right.

Speaker 2:
[13:48] He did one thing right. He did a great job. Famously used, of course, in the Oliver Stone movie as well. That was the first time it was reshown.

Speaker 1:
[13:55] And the only missing footage to this day, there were multiple people spotted filming. The only missing footage to this day is the... She's now known as Babushka Lady.

Speaker 2:
[14:05] The Babushka Lady.

Speaker 1:
[14:06] Babushka Lady's footage. Babushka Lady, if you're watching this, as opposed to all other facets of media that exists about this, hit us up. We'd love to be a part of your story. And then another lady has come out and said, she was a time traveler using a camera that had not been invented yet.

Speaker 2:
[14:25] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[14:25] And that she was there for MLK as well.

Speaker 2:
[14:27] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[14:28] So a lot of kooks attracted people to this story.

Speaker 2:
[14:30] Babushka Lady, some people don't think even was a woman. Think it was someone undercover.

Speaker 1:
[14:33] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[14:34] There's Mary Mormon in the red coat. Very visible. She was laying right here. Laying right here. After the shooting happened, people were sprinting here.

Speaker 1:
[14:44] Right.

Speaker 2:
[14:44] Think about that. People were running to check out what was going on over at this fence, which I think we probably go take a look at next.

Speaker 1:
[14:51] We've got to look at the fence. What a monumental piece of American history. And it's so just a thing.

Speaker 2:
[14:56] It's just like, yeah, go check it out.

Speaker 1:
[14:58] It's not even a hill. It really is just a knoll.

Speaker 2:
[15:00] Yeah. Steven, let's get you in the Zapruder spot. Get that shot.

Speaker 1:
[15:13] And that's where he was when he was murked. Brain, skulls, flesh, what?

Speaker 3:
[15:21] You name it.

Speaker 2:
[15:23] Now, what else could have possibly happened? There's a guy by the name of Jimmy Files, James Earl Files. He's still alive. He was a bagman for Chicago outfits, for New York outfits, for Canty, all kinds of mafia type. He claims to have been right here. He claims to have basically babysat Oswald. He claims that Oswald was part of the whole thing, but didn't know that there was more going on.

Speaker 1:
[15:47] Sure, which is plausible.

Speaker 2:
[15:49] Which is very plausible. He claims to have used what was called a Remington Fireball that had a scope. It's kind of a weird, almost sawed off shotgun looking weapon.

Speaker 1:
[15:58] It's just like...

Speaker 2:
[15:59] But it had a scope. It was a.308.

Speaker 1:
[16:03] We're behind the fence, but we're not invisible here.

Speaker 2:
[16:05] We're not invisible.

Speaker 1:
[16:06] Any kind of firearm pointed here is gonna draw some attention.

Speaker 2:
[16:11] No, but here's the thing. You right now, maybe here's a picture of the Remington Fireball. It's about this big. It's not a long weapon. You don't need a long shot for that. James Files supposedly a very good shot. In one of the pictures taken, I think it was the friend of Mary Marmot. I forget her name. There's something called the Badge Man. You heard about the Badge Man? No, no, no. Tell me. The Badge Man is maybe people envisioning what they, seeing what they want to see in this picture. It's taken the second that Kennedy was killed. There's a silhouette and what looks like the Dallas Police Badge at the time. The belief is Jimmy Files was in uniform. So yeah, he's a policeman standing right here. He's watching the shots happen. He was told, according to himself, his own manuscripts, he was told he was the last line of defense because once it got past, there was a sign, there is a sign right here, but there's another sign for the Stemins Highway. Once it got past that point, nobody could get him and he could not leave alive. Jimmy Files is the last one to pull the trigger. That's the belief. He also said that it's possible that someone else hit him in the head at the same time.

Speaker 1:
[17:17] Same time. But no more than four shots were heard, right?

Speaker 2:
[17:24] Yeah, three to four is the belief, but a lot of people did say that they would happen on top of each other. Acoustically, it's very difficult to tell. People thought they were.

Speaker 1:
[17:33] What if it's pa, pa, pa?

Speaker 2:
[17:34] Yeah, or what if it's pa, pa, pa? Two at the same time.

Speaker 1:
[17:39] You never know.

Speaker 2:
[17:39] It could be up to three shooters. You know?

Speaker 1:
[17:42] So there was also a police bike audio recording as well?

Speaker 2:
[17:48] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[17:49] Was anything taken from that that led to anything?

Speaker 2:
[17:53] Not that I'm aware of. One of the only things taken from the police bikes and the car in front of Kennedy, though, was that their backs had brain matter and blood on it. How would that happen with a forward shot? So it's a weird...

Speaker 1:
[18:07] So that's evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald.

Speaker 2:
[18:09] It's evidence to be... No, it's evidence for Lee Harvey Oswald.

Speaker 1:
[18:13] Yeah, right. That's what I meant. Against him.

Speaker 2:
[18:15] Against, yeah. What I think it really leads to is just that there's more than what we're told. Jimmy Files was a career bag man, a hit man. He liked to do little, what do you call it? Little signatures, little calling cards.

Speaker 1:
[18:32] The canary.

Speaker 2:
[18:33] The canary. He once got into, almost got killed himself because he wanted to find a canary to implement with a victim. And the guy who he was with was like, are you fucking crazy? It's 3M. He got the canary.

Speaker 1:
[18:43] He did find the canary.

Speaker 2:
[18:44] Something he apparently was accustomed to doing is he would fire, recycle the weapon and then catch the shell as it came out. This was something he just kind of grew accustomed to doing. He would bite the shell case. Terrible idea. But then again, this is 50s and 60s.

Speaker 1:
[18:58] And also, it's alleged even today that DNA evidence is all bullshit.

Speaker 4:
[19:01] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[19:02] Other than maybe dental marks.

Speaker 2:
[19:04] So he bit the shell casing and supposedly put it on the fence where it eventually fell and was found in the 70s.

Speaker 1:
[19:10] Just like, how is this whole thing not combed that day?

Speaker 2:
[19:16] It makes no sense. In the years to follow, the FBI did shut down this entire square and recreate the situation, which you see pictures of that often. There's a dummy of JFK and you see it fairly often. I think, just based on the stuff he knows, because all of his backstory before the day of, he's dealing with Oswald. There's a picture of him holding the Remington that he claims was taken by Oswald in a motel room. There's all kinds of stuff. I think I'm putting my money on James Files.

Speaker 1:
[19:49] You are?

Speaker 2:
[19:50] Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1:
[19:51] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[19:51] I've not seen anything else that would make me go, oh, that's possible. And I think this guy, I think Oswald was implemented with it.

Speaker 1:
[19:59] Yeah, and what are you going to do? And then it was just such an open shut, let's get this thing solved to qualm the American people.

Speaker 2:
[20:08] And then what are you going to do? And then lest we forget, Kennedy was pulling out of Vietnam. He was going to take the advisors out.

Speaker 1:
[20:14] He was fucking over the mob that helped him get elected.

Speaker 2:
[20:17] He was soft on Cuba. He was more in favor of working with the Soviets. The war machine don't want that, Jack. And they got him.

Speaker 1:
[20:26] What's your name, sir?

Speaker 3:
[20:28] Ron Washington. Ron. 35 years of research in the Kennedy assassination. This is my publication. I give walking, I come down, I give walking and riding tours. Perfect.

Speaker 1:
[20:39] You're from Dallas?

Speaker 3:
[20:40] Born and raised in Dallas.

Speaker 1:
[20:43] So you've seen a lot of people come and go.

Speaker 3:
[20:45] Yes, I have.

Speaker 1:
[20:45] Tell us your thoughts on the Kennedy assassination.

Speaker 3:
[20:48] What happened, Kennedy's assassination, my thoughts? Well, my experience and what I've gathered, Kennedy's assassination, man, the only somebody could get away with something like this would be the people who had the authority to change things. Government, CIA, FBI. I feel in my 35 years of research, they all had a hand.

Speaker 1:
[21:12] Okay. Is there somebody you think is the prime suspect here?

Speaker 3:
[21:18] All of them together. Government, CIA, FBI, mob, yeah, they all had a hand.

Speaker 1:
[21:23] What are your thoughts on Lee Harvey Oswald?

Speaker 3:
[21:26] He was a patsy, a fall guy, but patsy Klein.

Speaker 2:
[21:29] You think he was here that day? You think he was here that day?

Speaker 3:
[21:32] I don't think he was guy in the window, but he knew what was going on.

Speaker 2:
[21:36] He was at work.

Speaker 3:
[21:37] He was about the money. All of this is all about the root of all evil.

Speaker 2:
[21:44] Money?

Speaker 3:
[21:44] The love of money, yes.

Speaker 1:
[21:46] Oh my God. What are your thoughts on Jimmy Files?

Speaker 3:
[21:49] Jimmy Files. Now that guy, I've got a chance to interview him and talk with him and things like that. His credibility is, I take seriously, but again, it's all going back to the Almighty Dollar. It's about the dollar.

Speaker 1:
[22:12] My God.

Speaker 3:
[22:13] Why would you, if you assassinate the president of the Kennedy assassination, the president of the United States or anybody else, does that matter? Why would you come out just because you did your time? Why would you come out and tell people you did it?

Speaker 1:
[22:29] Where do you think the first shot was fired from?

Speaker 3:
[22:33] The first shot came from behind the Woody Pickett Fence.

Speaker 1:
[22:37] Where allegedly Jimmy Files was standing.

Speaker 3:
[22:39] Right.

Speaker 1:
[22:39] What about the second shot?

Speaker 3:
[22:41] The second shot came from the 2nd Floor of the Daltex Building.

Speaker 2:
[22:44] The Daltex Building.

Speaker 1:
[22:46] So that's that.

Speaker 3:
[22:46] Guys, Kennedy was in a military crossfire.

Speaker 2:
[22:50] Right.

Speaker 1:
[22:53] How many shots do you think were fired total?

Speaker 3:
[22:54] I think there were six shooters all shooting simultaneously three times. That's why you have the umbrella man.

Speaker 1:
[23:02] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[23:03] They were giving signals for them to shoot simultaneously.

Speaker 1:
[23:07] What do you think about the Babushka lady? You met her?

Speaker 3:
[23:09] I met her too. You did? Yes, but I got a chance to meet all of them.

Speaker 1:
[23:12] Tell me about the Babushka lady. You're the only person who's ever talked to her.

Speaker 3:
[23:16] No, I'm not the only people. She was here? Yes, she's been here.

Speaker 1:
[23:20] Really?

Speaker 3:
[23:22] I'm not the only person to talk to. I've been going to a whole lot of them to talk to. Because she used to come down every anniversary. I haven't seen her in the last four or five years, so I don't know what...

Speaker 1:
[23:34] Same Babushka? The same one? Oh, my God.

Speaker 2:
[23:39] What do you think about the missing frames from the Zapruder film? You think there's anything in there?

Speaker 3:
[23:44] The missing frames? Well, if you look at it, in my opinion, and everybody's opinion is legit, in my opinion, like I said, the only somebody could get away with something like this would be the people who had them thought it's changing.

Speaker 1:
[24:03] Time Warner. It's locked up. Now, what do you think, what do you hope the American people take away from the Kennedy assassination?

Speaker 3:
[24:10] The truth will make you free.

Speaker 1:
[24:15] That's what my granddad said.

Speaker 3:
[24:17] The truth will make you free. The thing about it, if you go biblically, it says, until my people who are called by my name shall humble themselves, then shall they hear from God. The root of evil, all evil, is the love of money. Thank you, guys.

Speaker 2:
[24:39] Hey, thank you so much, sir.

Speaker 4:
[24:40] Thank you. Have a great day, sir. All right.

Speaker 2:
[24:42] Take care.

Speaker 1:
[24:43] Take care. Here we have The Underpass where the car drove directly to Parkland Hospital where multiple doctors would argue over who got to do the autopsy even though he still had a pulse for 20 minutes upon arrival.

Speaker 2:
[25:01] He was classified as something called Morbund, which is beyond probably going to die. It's he's dead. It's just a matter of time.

Speaker 1:
[25:10] But holy shit, he's got a pulse.

Speaker 2:
[25:11] But he's got a pulse. Yeah. So he was missing a fifth of his brain.

Speaker 1:
[25:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[25:17] They say that the throat wound was survivable. Severe but survivable. The headshot not so much. But yeah, as you say, Texas state law, if there's a murder, it has to be investigated forensically. But in Texas, I believe his immediate secretary and then Secret Service got into a scuffle in the actual hospital to get him onto the plane to get him to DC. There's a big difference.

Speaker 1:
[25:44] Not in Texas.

Speaker 2:
[25:45] There's a big difference, as quoted in JFK, between a state forensic investigation and a federal one when it comes to such an assassination.

Speaker 1:
[25:54] But many things are still misconstrued to this day, where the actual autopsy report was under reported, like the actual sheet itself. And the photos were unrecognizable to the autopsy photographer. The photos officially presented upon inspection of the autopsy photographer, their thoughts were along the lines of like, I took much more graphic detailed photos than that. This is not my work.

Speaker 2:
[26:27] The idea, yeah, they classified like the neck wound as a tracheotomy point, which is like, oh, that hole we put there for a tracheotomy to get them to breathe, not an exit wound, because now they have to explain all these weird things. There's also the fact that the limousine was left at Parkland, was eventually moved to a forward plant here with the windshield removed, because there may have been a bullet hole in it, which would be unexplainable. Now, the significance of the Triple Underpass is that James Tag, as we said, was standing right about here and was kind of doing one of these and got nicked right in the cheek by either concrete or actual bullet fragments from a ricochet. And of course, the ultimate irony is that two days later, maybe three days later, when Lee Harvey Oswald was shot in the basement of the Dallas Police Building by Jack Ruby, a known mafia, so someone who also, we believe, knew Oswald prior, shot him in the stomach on his way out of the building, would then later be driven to Parkland, where he died an hour and a half later.

Speaker 1:
[27:39] Master Stereo.

Speaker 2:
[27:40] What's your name, sir?

Speaker 4:
[27:42] Marshall Evans, 1L, my mom couldn't afford to ask.

Speaker 1:
[27:46] Author of The Reckoning, which we can't wait to check out today.

Speaker 4:
[27:51] Yeah, I testified before Congress. I was the consultant for Oliver Stunn on the assassination scene in the movie JFK. Really? On the movie LBJ, that's Woody Harrelson there playing LBJ. I was the overall visual consultant on that.

Speaker 1:
[28:03] Wow, sure is.

Speaker 4:
[28:04] I've been in 32 documentaries. My latest book looks like Brad Pitt, but it's me. Oh yeah, that's you. Ask away.

Speaker 1:
[28:11] What are your initial film? Are you from Dallas?

Speaker 4:
[28:16] I was an Air Force brat until my dad retired at 12, when I was 12. Then we moved just north of McKinney when there's nothing up there and I didn't have a car till I was 18. So kind of turned into a bookworm. I started making phone calls to witnesses when I was 16. Nobody told me I was too young. By the time I was in my late 20s, I had networks calling me, getting ready for the special in November.

Speaker 1:
[28:38] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[28:40] Now we're doing sort of a deep dive on that day. What do you think happened that day, starting at 11, 29 in the morning?

Speaker 4:
[28:50] I don't know how much good I'm going to be to you because I don't speculate or theorize. I'm very evidentiary based. I could have corroboration, lots of it.

Speaker 1:
[28:57] I think that's what we're more interested in.

Speaker 4:
[28:59] Most of that is speculative. He had an argument with his wife about the bubble top. She wanted it on, he wanted it off. He was anxious to get done with Dallas. It was a five-city tour, starting his campaign early, and Dallas was the last one. And they were going to have this luncheon, then they were going to head down to the Johnson Ranch. And it didn't make it. There were a lot of shots out here. You can count 11 by the holes. The governor was hit three times, the president was hit three times, a bystander was hit once in the face. I was friends with him for decades.

Speaker 2:
[29:34] Mr. Tagg?

Speaker 4:
[29:34] Uh-huh, we spoke at the funeral. And then missed shots at the street, the sidewalk, the car. We got pictures of the holes. So there were bullets flying all over in that 5.6 seconds from the first shot to the last shot.

Speaker 1:
[29:45] So some say one shot, some say three shots, some say four, you're saying more like nine?

Speaker 4:
[29:50] In my life, I've heard anybody say one or two.

Speaker 1:
[29:52] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[29:53] No one.

Speaker 1:
[29:54] Wow.

Speaker 4:
[29:56] But the problem for the Waring Commission was they were limited to a three-shot scenario. Right. Because that's the most you get from that weapon in that much time.

Speaker 1:
[30:04] Right.

Speaker 4:
[30:05] If they admitted a fourth shot, they had to admit a second shooter, a conspiracy. So they were kind of stuck with it. Well, the Waring Commission was a non-governmental body to begin with. It was a president's panel. They didn't have access to stuff. They were reversed by three congressional investigations in the 70s, as you know.

Speaker 2:
[30:23] Was it Select Committee?

Speaker 4:
[30:24] Yeah, the Church Committee, Rockefeller Commission, the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

Speaker 2:
[30:27] House Select Committee on Assassinations. That's right.

Speaker 4:
[30:29] And they said shots came from both directions at least one shot came from behind the fence over here. Obviously, you can talk to any hunter. Entrance wounds make little holes, exit wounds make big holes. Plus, any medical examiner will tell you that an entrance wound on a cranial shot makes a starburst in the skull. Now, they cut the skin off at the autopsy for that, but you can see the fracture lines where it went in and simply blew out the back.

Speaker 1:
[30:54] Oh, so the exit wound is in the back?

Speaker 4:
[30:57] It's always bigger, yeah. Now, this piece here flew 54 feet back and to the left, landed about a foot to where that light post is across the street. Right above that is a piece that Jackie grabbed off the trunk. She testified to that, holding it on in the car. And this piece here flaps down. She was 31 when he took off, was 34 when this happened. By 1994, her immune system was shot because she had become a chain-smoking alcoholic insomniac. And she died of rare blood cancer. I always say it was the same bullet that took her both down. It just took longer to get her. Well, it's a very sad story. She was a beautiful lady full of life, joy, hope. The back of the president here, the autopsy is the back of his head, back of his neck. The ex-one here was from the throat shot. It was four times the sight of the original entrance here before Dr. Perry took a scalpel and enlarged it to put in a tracheal tube to help his breathing. A couple inches below that is an entrance room from back there somewhere. I've only been in about that far. I got caught up in the intercostal muscles. Why were they trying to help his breathing? Wasn't he dead? No. In 1963, heartbeats, all they went by to determine life from death. And he still had a faint heartbeat. The brain stem that goes down into the spine was undamaged. It controls the heartbeat. It kept sending the signal to the heart to keep pumping. So it's probably a good thing at that point, but he was pumping his own blood out. Yeah. Jack Ruby, who had a couple years before, been sitting down here by Sam Gene Conner in Chicago to be the liaison between the mob and the Dallas police. He was not a made guy. To be a made guy, you not only got to be Italian, you got to be Sicilian from a certain area, from Italy. He was Jewish. He could never be more than what's called connected. Now, when they were transferring Oswald from the city jail to the county jail, he stepped out and pulled the trigger with his middle finger. He didn't have an index finger. Half of it was bitten off years earlier in a fight.

Speaker 2:
[32:59] Really?

Speaker 4:
[32:59] Yeah. 18 years later, they dug Oswald up. You're still dead. Surprise. His casket didn't look too good. Oswald was 24 when this happened. His brother was only a couple of years older and he couldn't afford a decent box. It rotted away. There was a carcass. They moved it to a better casket and his head fell off on the way. But anyway.

Speaker 2:
[33:17] Perfect.

Speaker 4:
[33:18] I'm still friends with Marina. I've known her since I was 19. She lives in Rockwall, the suburb of Dallas. Wow.

Speaker 2:
[33:23] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[33:25] It's his autopsy.

Speaker 2:
[33:27] Do you have any? Oswald's. I've never seen that.

Speaker 4:
[33:29] That's Oswald's autopsy.

Speaker 2:
[33:31] Wow. He still bruised from where he got hit in the eye, the Shiner.

Speaker 4:
[33:36] It was Texas. The Texas way was to beat the crap out of you, put a confession into your face, you want to sign it, you want to dance some more.

Speaker 2:
[33:42] Get you in front of a judge.

Speaker 1:
[33:44] Isn't there some kind of discrepancy with the autopsy photos, where the autopsy photographer didn't recognize the photos that were released?

Speaker 4:
[33:52] There were three autopsy photographers that night during the autopsy. None of them knew about the other one. They came in at a different time. So that whatever they needed for their narrative, they would have pictures of as they manipulated the head. Let's see. Anyway.

Speaker 2:
[34:08] And now let me ask you one more thing. There's a picture that I don't remember if it was Mary Mormon or someone else took, where you can see what's called the Badge Man or what people believe to be the Badge Man.

Speaker 4:
[34:19] There's a Polaroid, no negative. She's still friends with Marzluf down in Gorskannon, still alive and kicking.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] Do you think that's likely that that's somebody in there?

Speaker 4:
[34:28] I guess the pros and the cons, I tend to believe no.

Speaker 2:
[34:31] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[34:32] Because of so many reasons I put in the boat.

Speaker 2:
[34:35] Okay, understood.

Speaker 4:
[34:36] I don't jump on every little line.

Speaker 2:
[34:38] Yeah, there's a lot.

Speaker 1:
[34:39] Yeah. There's a lot.

Speaker 4:
[34:39] Or do I believe the driver turned around and shot the man?

Speaker 1:
[34:41] No, that's the same.

Speaker 4:
[34:43] His left arm never leaves over here, his right hand never leaves the steering wheel, so he would have had to have grown a third arm.

Speaker 1:
[34:47] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:
[34:48] It's the other guy's hair. What are your thoughts on the-

Speaker 4:
[34:50] He can act like that except for his forehead and the top of his head and he used a new technology called Photoshop for his beard.

Speaker 1:
[34:55] What are your thoughts on the Babushka lady?

Speaker 4:
[34:58] She's sick now. I knew her for decades. And a lot of questions about whether the lady that she thinks was her coming across is really her because no one's got cankles the size of my thighs. And so who knows? I do believe she was here though.

Speaker 1:
[35:15] And her footage is yet to be seen, correct?

Speaker 4:
[35:19] Well, the FBI came, they took her film. We didn't have video back then. There you go. They took her film and for years she was petitioning them to get it back. They finally admitted that they had taken it, but they didn't know what happened to it. She's got that document.

Speaker 1:
[35:36] Certainly.

Speaker 4:
[35:38] They couldn't have that in the images over there.

Speaker 2:
[35:41] Of course.

Speaker 1:
[35:42] Well, you say you're completely evidentiary base, no conspiracy. Do you believe Lee Harvey Oswald could have committed this crime?

Speaker 2:
[35:50] On his own. On his own, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[35:51] Let me answer this way, okay? It would be good for the viewers. The Warren Commission report is about that thick and it strongly intimates that Lee Harvey Oswald, an employee there for four and a half weeks, had fired three shots, last one killing the president. The problem was, there were 26 volumes of supporting evidence that went with that, written by the same people. In there, they covered their butt for posterity, so they wouldn't look nuts later. In there, they say Lee Harvey Oswald could not have done it though, because he was on the second floor in the break room, 70 to 72 seconds after the last shot was fired, when a police officer and the superintendent of the building found him there eating his lunch, which was half eaten. Before that, he was crossed the hallway getting changed for a dollar bill for the Coke machine. You need to understand, he sucked at shooting. Out here in your world, the word Marksman means a good shot. But in the military, you got Marksman, sharpshooter and expert. He practiced all day long to qualify by one point. They probably gave it to him for effort. Marina said she only saw him shoot twice and he was no good. He didn't need to be. He was the patsy.

Speaker 2:
[36:53] And then lastly, do you put any stock or credit into Jimmy Files, James Earl Files?

Speaker 4:
[36:57] I know him. I discredited him in the first edition of this. He finally admitted to me that it is what happened. He went to prison attempting to kill a cop.

Speaker 2:
[37:10] That's right.

Speaker 4:
[37:10] Anyway, he was a little scrawny guy. And he was worried and he had time to study the case. And he thought, if they think that I had something, some connection to Kennedy's assnics, they might be hands off. And I said, did it work? He said, yeah. So he did admit it finally. But he tried to capitalize on it when he got out of prison. He wrote a book and he's all over the internet.

Speaker 2:
[37:39] All right.

Speaker 4:
[37:40] I heard the other day that there was a rumor that he died. Did you hear Chuck Norris die?

Speaker 2:
[37:44] Yeah, we heard. Rest in peace, Chuck. Mr. Marshall Evans, JFK The Reckoning, out now.

Speaker 1:
[37:51] Thank you so much for your time. Roll the whole time and just keep the camera down.

Speaker 2:
[37:56] How are you doing? So I had looked up about like filming permissions and all that good stuff before coming here. So while in the museum itself, in our exhibits, you are not allowed to film in any circumstances.

Speaker 1:
[38:14] There's something they don't want us to see in there.

Speaker 2:
[38:17] Try as we might.

Speaker 1:
[38:18] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:19] And we tried for five.

Speaker 1:
[38:21] Five hours. How have you been doing for five hours out here? Oh my God. Well, let's go see. Let's go get a good view of the building.

Speaker 2:
[38:29] Yeah, that's a great idea. We could overlook the whole plaza from the railway.

Speaker 1:
[38:36] Here we are atop the underpass next to the Parker Road Red Line. I just read. God, what a vantage point here.

Speaker 2:
[38:46] There were people who were up here who watched the whole thing happen. Isn't that amazing? They're actually the guy in JFK, the movie who's talking to Kevin Costner up here was actually, he's the real life guy who was there. They just cast him in the movie.

Speaker 1:
[38:57] So the original route would have had it here or here?

Speaker 2:
[39:01] Straight down this road, which from this vantage point, you can tell Book Depository Building, Daltex Building, the Records Building, it's all a little too far.

Speaker 1:
[39:11] Yeah. So it seems like a conscious reroute, like, what if he turned?

Speaker 2:
[39:16] Because then the other thing you got to consider, and they talk about this a lot, is you have to slow down and make that turn. It's an awkward 130 degree turn.

Speaker 1:
[39:22] And also a presidential-

Speaker 2:
[39:25] Limo.

Speaker 1:
[39:25] Blockade is not going to be an easy thing to reroute. It's very intentionally done.

Speaker 2:
[39:31] Like our friend said, it had to be the people in power.

Speaker 1:
[39:34] Aha, and money.

Speaker 2:
[39:35] Those who could change the route.

Speaker 1:
[39:36] People with the money, which is the root of all evil. You know, HardLore is truly all around us at all times.

Speaker 2:
[39:44] Everywhere.

Speaker 1:
[39:44] It's weaved through the fabric of our society in these tragedies that define the history of our nation that we'll never know the full story about.

Speaker 2:
[40:01] Good view though, it's beautiful. Yeah, it's cool.

Speaker 1:
[40:03] A little hot.

Speaker 2:
[40:04] Little hot, yeah, you're wearing a sweater in 90 degree. It's got holes in it.

Speaker 1:
[40:09] Much like this story.

Speaker 2:
[40:18] What scares you the most about being remembered?

Speaker 1:
[40:21] I just think we both want to be good people.

Speaker 2:
[40:23] I hope my friends and family think I'm a good guy. That's it.

Speaker 1:
[40:29] Hello and welcome to the inaugural episode of Hard Lore Stories from Tor.

Speaker 2:
[40:37] Wow, I've never heard it said out loud.

Speaker 1:
[40:39] We got a show.

Speaker 2:
[40:47] And my four favorite hardcore releases right off the top of my head are Youth of Today, Break Down the Walls, Terror, Lowest of the Low, Carry On, A Life Less Plagued, Marauder, Masterkiller. I walked into the room, and it was tragic.

Speaker 1:
[41:35] Well, I've been holding it all day. Sitting next to Andy on the plane, you want me to rip an ass? I'm like, yeah, my bad.

Speaker 2:
[41:42] I want you to treat me how you would treat Andy.

Speaker 1:
[41:44] I never would. I never would.

Speaker 2:
[42:02] I knew I couldn't do this. I predicted the 60s. There's no way I'm making it.

Speaker 1:
[42:06] What the fuck is going on? Hi, my name is Pazuzu. Some know me as Reagan.

Speaker 2:
[42:24] How about you? I was asked not too long ago what my drag name would be, and it just hit me. When dancing. There's no way DSI is heavier than typo.

Speaker 1:
[42:33] Are you serious? What are you saying?

Speaker 2:
[42:36] World coming down?

Speaker 1:
[42:46] If there's any spirits in here, well, it's good.

Speaker 2:
[42:49] We played Budapest with I Hate God. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[42:54] And you smoked meth with them, right? Yep.

Speaker 2:
[43:06] Oh, she's figurative. Oh, figurative. Oh, she's figurative.

Speaker 1:
[43:17] I'm actually a fan of Little Caesars. Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[43:21] Cut right there, too.

Speaker 1:
[43:44] Let me think of a clever sign up here. Some sang the hardest lore of all. Uh-huh, uh.

Speaker 2:
[44:05] It's literally just watching your mouth to see what you could possibly have lined up for them. Um.

Speaker 4:
[44:16] Got the train coming by.

Speaker 2:
[44:18] Beautiful. Beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[44:30] You know, HardLore. There's HardLore everywhere, really, all around us. It's in the fabric of our very society, all around the world. And these tragedies are happening every day all around us. We'll never know the real story about anything.