transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:05] Greetings, it's another week in America, but we are trying to stay positive, okay?

Speaker 2:
[00:11] Just like our president, who is once again trying to speak his dreams into existence, manifesting, you know? Currently, it's peace in the Middle East.

Speaker 1:
[00:19] He is a manifesto.

Speaker 3:
[00:20] He does that.

Speaker 1:
[00:21] Not the president being a manifesto.

Speaker 2:
[00:22] Yes, yes. Peace in the Middle East and affordable goods in the US is what he's trying to manifest right now.

Speaker 1:
[00:27] Okay, his, what shall we say, Norman Peel-style manifesting, I would argue it's actually Amanda from the Braille Housewives of Beverly Hills. She is a master manifesto. Unlike Amanda's manifesting though, it is not working because the prices are high and they're about to get higher, especially on the things that are made in places that really rely on Iranian oil. Things like lipstick, Ladies, vaccines, plastic bags, justice for the plastic bags on our account.

Speaker 2:
[00:55] It's not great. This week in El Paso, a woman named Daisy Rivera Ortega is in ice detention.

Speaker 1:
[01:04] Now why is she in ice detention?

Speaker 2:
[01:05] So she went in for an interview last week. She was applying for a program that protects spouses of active duty military from deportation.

Speaker 1:
[01:12] Hold on. So Daisy's not a criminal?

Speaker 2:
[01:15] No, not at all.

Speaker 1:
[01:16] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[01:16] No, no, no. She hasn't been allowed to go home. Her husband, he's an army sergeant who's been serving for Symone. How long do you think he's been serving?

Speaker 1:
[01:24] I mean, at least 20 years, right?

Speaker 2:
[01:25] 27 years.

Speaker 1:
[01:27] This is criminal.

Speaker 3:
[01:28] This is crazy.

Speaker 2:
[01:30] 27 years. He told CBS News, quote, I don't really understand why, because she followed the rules of immigration.

Speaker 1:
[01:37] This is tragic. Okay. I'm sorry, but this is insane.

Speaker 2:
[01:41] But isn't that what Republicans have been saying forever? We want people to follow the rules. And here we go, following the rules.

Speaker 1:
[01:45] And look at Daisy following the rules.

Speaker 2:
[01:46] Still not enough.

Speaker 1:
[01:47] Well, also what was happening this week in Virginia, voters, they have voted for a effort by the state's Democratic Party to do some mid-decade redistricting. This makes it so Dems could have the upper hand in four congressional races in November. Even President Obama got involved in this special election.

Speaker 4:
[02:07] Hey, Virginia. Early voting is underway, and Virginians are turning out in record numbers to vote yes. By voting yes, you have a chance to do something important, not just for the Commonwealth, but for our entire country. By voting yes, you can push back against the Republicans trying to give themselves an unfair advantage in the midterms.

Speaker 1:
[02:31] And to be very clear, President Obama got involved because he is the, you know, he's helped start the National Democratic Redistricting Committee, of which Eric Holder is in charge of. And so obviously, this is very much so in their wheelhouse.

Speaker 2:
[02:44] And opposite of how he used to talk about redistricting. It's very much a fight fire with fire situation.

Speaker 1:
[02:49] Well, I mean, this is in response to what Donald Trump did.

Speaker 2:
[02:51] Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[02:52] And it wasn't just politicians who got involved. Pusha T and John Legend, Pusha T, who is a Virginia native, they put this out last week.

Speaker 5:
[03:01] What's up, Pusha?

Speaker 6:
[03:02] What's up?

Speaker 5:
[03:03] I'm in your state. I'm in Richmond, VA. I got a show tonight and I wanted to check in with you because we got to talk.

Speaker 6:
[03:10] Here's what's going on. Some states are redrawing congressional maps to give Republicans more power to do what they want.

Speaker 1:
[03:16] Can I just note that John Legend, it is not new for me to see him get engaged and involved. He has been politically engaged and involved over a number of cycles. And so shout out to Pusha T.

Speaker 3:
[03:26] Pusha T. We need to get him on the podcast.

Speaker 2:
[03:28] That's 100 percent. So that is all happening in the backdrop. But right now, we're going to dig into why in God's world is Jared Kushner a special envoy for peace with an extremely high security clearance. We're going to talk about billionaires owning newspapers and war trying to make all their mergers happen, making some money.

Speaker 1:
[03:47] And then cultural icon, image activist and owner of one of the best app stores in town. Michaela Angela Davis will join the show to talk about black representation and politics and culture right up in her wheelhouse. Can't wait to see my girl.

Speaker 2:
[04:01] All of the things. But first, who is in charge at the White House?

Speaker 1:
[04:04] Well, you know what? They used to ask this question a lot when Joe Biden was the president. And I just feel like I have real questions about if Donald Trump is really calling the shots here.

Speaker 3:
[04:12] He seems a little confused sometimes.

Speaker 2:
[04:15] He seems confused sometimes. Let's say that. Last weekend, actually on the weekend on our show, a curious thing happened.

Speaker 1:
[04:21] Oh, the weekend. The new weekend. OK. I used to co-host the weekend.

Speaker 2:
[04:25] The best weekend. Yes. It made it better.

Speaker 1:
[04:28] Oh, OK. All right. Well, version 2.0. What happened on this new version of the weekend, child?

Speaker 2:
[04:34] Donald Trump, he announced he was going to send a team back to Pakistan for more negotiations. He was going to end the war on Iran. During the break, my girl Jackie Alamany called Trump on the phone on set. Listen to this.

Speaker 1:
[04:47] What?

Speaker 3:
[04:47] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[04:48] Five seconds ago, Jackie just got off the phone with President Trump. She called during the break.

Speaker 3:
[04:52] Tell us.

Speaker 7:
[04:53] Well, you guys heard too. You start. You start. Let me fix my hair.

Speaker 3:
[04:57] So Jackie did what a reporter does and what Jackie does. She dialed the president of the United States.

Speaker 2:
[05:03] He answered the phone.

Speaker 3:
[05:04] OK, Jackie.

Speaker 2:
[05:06] My girl Jackie, got her foot on these.

Speaker 1:
[05:08] Jackie ain't in the White House reporter child, but she is in there. Shout out to Jackie Alamany.

Speaker 2:
[05:12] My girl.

Speaker 1:
[05:13] OK, so what happened?

Speaker 2:
[05:14] This is something that happens all the time. I write reporters cold call the president who should be busy. He just picks up. So listen to more of the conversation.

Speaker 3:
[05:22] Yes. OK.

Speaker 2:
[05:23] You asked him if the vice president were going. He said no, the vice president is not going because of security reasons.

Speaker 3:
[05:28] Jackie.

Speaker 7:
[05:29] Yeah, the president said that Secret Service essentially, I feel like the takeaway was they don't have enough time to set up.

Speaker 2:
[05:34] Because of the speed. And then before the show was over, this happened in the eight o'clock, around like 830 ish, before the show was over, it's over at 10, we were being told by administration officials that Vance is going to lead the negotiations. And Trump didn't say he was going to go, even though we all heard him say that with our own ears.

Speaker 1:
[05:54] I just, I had two thoughts. Now, there are there's a camp of people that are like, oh, these reporters that are picking up the phone, calling the president, they're getting spun because Donald Trump is just taking every call, trying to seed his narrative out there, and people are just writing it up. Now, I will say, folks here at MS NOW, and our girl Jackie, she didn't just do that, she gives nuance, takes and whatnot, but I do think it is important for people to at least try to reach out to hear from the president himself for no other reason, we could clock it if you like.

Speaker 2:
[06:23] Correct. And this is what I think was different about the call that Jackie did. She's done it before. Yes, I heard it. But I think they were on the phone for maybe a couple of minutes, maybe. And when we came back and throughout the show, she didn't just say what he said, right? We put it in context.

Speaker 3:
[06:37] She tried to say...

Speaker 1:
[06:40] You are real reporters. I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[06:41] Call it crazy. And then looked into the idea of whether or not what he was saying was true. What we ended up finding was that the president of the United States told us one thing. Minutes later, US officials were saying the other thing. Now, there are a couple of things that could have happened.

Speaker 3:
[06:58] Right.

Speaker 2:
[06:59] Left hand might not know what the right hand is doing.

Speaker 1:
[07:01] Well, it could be true that Secret Service did say that...

Speaker 3:
[07:05] As you know, you said in those meetings...

Speaker 1:
[07:06] Oh my gosh. There I am tussled with Secret Service, okay? To be very clear, the men and women of the Secret Service, they are there to...

Speaker 2:
[07:14] They have one job.

Speaker 1:
[07:15] They have one job. Keep the protectee safe, okay? Keep them from getting killed, injured, hurt, any way, shape or form. And so, if the Secret Service is telling you no for some reason, they are saying it because they have concerns about the safety of the protectee. Now, there are some times when the Secret Service tells you no, you're like, I understand Secret Service, but I need this to be a yes child. No, it's not an answer. These talks in Pakistan, they came about quickly. This isn't like the last time where they were planning a lead up to, like one day out of blue, we're going to Pakistan on Tuesday. Well, you just can't get to Pakistan. Sure, the site where they may be having the meeting is secure, but what about getting there, okay? You want to make sure the protectee, the route, like we don't want, God forbid, something happens on the way to the meeting so the room may be secure, is the route secure, is the hotel secure, are there assets in the region? These are all reasons why.

Speaker 2:
[08:03] If something happens, can the VP be pulled out immediately and take them somewhere?

Speaker 1:
[08:06] You know, the vice president always travels with a spare plane, child, a plane and a half, okay? So do we have another plane in the region?

Speaker 2:
[08:13] I'll never forget when we were on a trip. I don't remember what country we were in. I think you were there and then I saw the guys with the big guns come up.

Speaker 1:
[08:19] Oh, was this the one in Guatemala?

Speaker 2:
[08:21] Yes, for the inauguration.

Speaker 1:
[08:24] Oh, this was Guatemala. I was not on that trip. I had left the White House by then, but I heard all about it from my peeps. Yes, because we're going off on a tangent, but I think this matters. The Vice President of Motor Care at the time was just out there in the crowd. There were crowds of people and the big guns, the people in the in the in the Skechers, as I like to say, they got Skechers and all black. They hopped out and when the big guns hop out in a tactical gear with the Skechers, baby, then we start being like, what is happening?

Speaker 2:
[08:50] So this is all to say it's a long tangent, but it matters.

Speaker 1:
[08:54] It's a lot of things that go into this. So perhaps the Secret Service did say that Vance cannot go. And that's the last Trump heard about it. And he's like, oh, well, he ain't going. And then maybe Vance's team was like, we can't have the president saying we ain't going. You know what I mean? Because I don't know. He could look like we didn't do a good job. He couldn't get a ceasefire worked out on his last trip. So Donald Trump replaced him.

Speaker 2:
[09:15] I think the thing that's so interesting is that JD Vance, according to all the reporting, including David Rhoad, our colleague, Iran wants him in the room. Now, because he is the person who, if you're Iran and you're looking at all of our coverage, if you're looking at maybe the way that the folks talked in the room last time.

Speaker 1:
[09:34] Oh, because he's not a warmonger. Because he's the only one that didn't support.

Speaker 2:
[09:37] He's not a war hawk.

Speaker 1:
[09:39] Allegedly. Allegedly. According to the reporting, which is very interesting to me, that the vice president is the only one that comes out clean as a mother-freaking whistle.

Speaker 2:
[09:46] And the president has said that, like, he doesn't really want this. So even the president has acknowledged that JD Vance is-

Speaker 1:
[09:52] Not me being on the same side as JD Vance. I also don't want the war.

Speaker 2:
[09:56] You and JD are best friends.

Speaker 1:
[09:57] Come on.

Speaker 3:
[09:58] Come on, Mr. Vice President. I also don't want the war. Clock It with Symone and JD. Come on.

Speaker 1:
[10:02] I don't want the war. Neither does the people with- Neither does the fashion industry. Okay, Eugene. Well, you know, after all of that, child, it was a lot of back and forth, okay? Because at one point, they were like, he was on the plane. Another point, they were like, he's not on the plane. He's actually having meetings. He's been delayed. After all of that, JD Vance did not fly to Islamabad, okay? People are not chatting. This is a mess. This is a mess.

Speaker 2:
[10:24] It is a symptom.

Speaker 1:
[10:25] Unforced error.

Speaker 2:
[10:26] An unforced error that is a symptom when you have a president of the United States who instead of allowing the conversations to happen and then announcing the trip, like they usually do, instead what he's been doing is just like putting it on to social.

Speaker 1:
[10:41] Where are the stories from the White House reporters about how chaotic and unprofessional the vice president's office is?

Speaker 3:
[10:48] I think the vice president, the president's office.

Speaker 1:
[10:50] All of them, because when I worked at the White House, there were a lot of stories about that, about how the vice president is bad at their job, that the White House is upset. Where are the reports? I feel like you used to write some of those stories about the lady I used to work for, and there are a lot of White House reporters that are still at the White House right now that have written some of these stories up. I would like to see them write this up about JD Vance, because let me tell you something. It is amateur hour at the OK Corral in this bitch, okay? It is insane what is going on at the White House. Why don't y'all fucking know? What is going on? This is crazy. Sorry, it's crazy. And with that, we're moving the hell on.

Speaker 2:
[11:27] Because the other thing that is the son-in-law of the President of the United States, who had an official role in the White House in the first term, who after he left, according to reports, was invested in by the Saudis, to the tune of $2 billion.

Speaker 1:
[11:46] Yes, yes.

Speaker 2:
[11:46] And so, him now, going over and over, and being the lead on these negotiations in the Middle East, whether it was the negotiations for a peace deal with Israel and Gaza, or this peace deal with the United States.

Speaker 1:
[11:59] The peace deal that has yet to manifest.

Speaker 2:
[12:00] Well, Iran and us and Israel, at the end of the day, he has business interests. And so, at the very least, it brings up a ton of questions about whether or not he should be in the room with these people. And yet, he's in the room and accountable to no one.

Speaker 1:
[12:18] Let me just say something. It's not just previously that Jared Kushner was tied up getting money from the Middle East. In March, he spoke with potential investors about raising $5 billion with AB folks, more for Affinity Partners, which is his investment firm. And that is according to five people with knowledge to the talks.

Speaker 2:
[12:37] To the New York Times.

Speaker 1:
[12:39] Yes, New York Times, who weren't allowed to speak publicly. Like, he is actively going to raise money for his little business ventures.

Speaker 2:
[12:47] Not a little when there's billions of dollars.

Speaker 1:
[12:48] I'm just saying, little business ventures. Whatever black woman is like, yeah, you and your little so-and-so.

Speaker 2:
[12:53] It is not good.

Speaker 1:
[12:53] Shady. It is not good. Don't ever let a black woman hit you with a you and your little whatever, whatever.

Speaker 2:
[12:58] You and your little friends.

Speaker 1:
[12:58] We're being shady.

Speaker 3:
[12:59] I'm not one of your little friends.

Speaker 1:
[13:01] I'm not one of your little friends, okay? It is just, I mean, the level of corruption and grift and whatnot that is going on is actually insane. But to be very clear, if this was any other administration, like Hunter Biden.

Speaker 2:
[13:13] There'd be some kind of consequence.

Speaker 1:
[13:14] I'm just saying, they say Hunter Biden was out here doing deals and everything. Everything they say Hunter Biden was doing, Jared Kushner is actually doing. It's insane. All right.

Speaker 2:
[13:23] Blood pressure low.

Speaker 3:
[13:24] Okay, let me, No, loose up.

Speaker 1:
[13:27] Let me center myself like Cleo told us last week. Okay, can we talk about one of the few things that we do know about this war for certain because there's some other things we don't understand. But what we do understand is that it is expensive. It is actually costing US taxpayers. Now one estimate said $1 billion a day. That's not even accurate.

Speaker 3:
[13:44] It is low.

Speaker 1:
[13:45] Now we have not received any additional information about the price from the Pentagon or the White House in weeks because again, they are not briefing the government. They're not briefing the members of Congress.

Speaker 3:
[13:55] What should be doing, supposed to be doing?

Speaker 1:
[13:57] You know, on Thursday of last week, the OMB Director, Office of Management and Budget, Russell Vogt, author of Project 2025 Child, Chief Architect, one could argue. He testified in front of the United States Senate and this is what he had to say.

Speaker 8:
[14:10] I just want to confirm this. You have no idea, none, how much has been spent on the war so far?

Speaker 9:
[14:16] We don't have that figures right now. I think in part because it's fluctuating on a day-in-day-out basis. But it's one of the reasons we want to are studiously reviewing.

Speaker 8:
[14:27] You can't even give us a range.

Speaker 9:
[14:28] No, I'm not going to give you a range because I don't want to be an actor.

Speaker 8:
[14:30] You're just not going to tell you and tell us because you don't want us to know how much is being spent.

Speaker 2:
[14:35] Baby, Patty Murray does not pass. She says, so you're not going to tell us.

Speaker 1:
[14:38] It's fluctuating on a day-to-day basis. It's given. We don't know what we're spending.

Speaker 2:
[14:42] Which is crazy because it's y'all's money.

Speaker 1:
[14:44] Our money. Taxpayer dollars. Yes, because you paid your taxes, April 15th, I passed now. A couple weeks ago, the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. Shout out to the Harvard Kennedy School. I'm a former fellow. The Institute of Politics. Well, the Kennedy School, they ran an interview with a public policy expert on its website. And this is what the public policy expert said. She said that she believes the real cost is more like $2 billion a day and that she is, quote unquote, certain the war will cost $1 trillion over the next decade. How much is $1 trillion?

Speaker 2:
[15:16] They're too much. I just think that a war that a lot of people who do this work say was unnecessary. Everyone's been calling it a war of choice. We did the invasion. We decided as from our leadership of this country to spend the $1 to $2 billion a day of American taxpayer money.

Speaker 1:
[15:34] And for what reason we still have yet to hear what's been articulated from the United States government.

Speaker 2:
[15:37] Nothing very clear. The Trump administration put out its budget for 2027 earlier this month, which no one cares about because nobody ever moves it along. It's more about what their values are. In it, Trump is asking for an additional $445 billion with the B dollars for military spending than he got last year. It's like, you know, if you went into the office and said, hey, I need a 40% raise.

Speaker 1:
[16:00] I do need a 40% raise. I think I'm worth it.

Speaker 3:
[16:03] You and Trump, look at you finding common ground with the leadership of the president.

Speaker 1:
[16:08] That's crazy.

Speaker 2:
[16:09] It gets them to $1.5 trillion on defense. The budget asks for $660 billion for non-defense spending, and that is a 10% cut.

Speaker 1:
[16:20] Child, here are just a few of the programs the budget proposes to cut. Let me get my list, okay? Low income home energy assistance program, gone. They're proposing to cut the administration for, here we go, strategic preparedness and response, gone. A program called housing opportunities for persons with AIDS, and one called Food for Peace, because we don't want food or peace. You know how much money those four programs cost? How much?

Speaker 2:
[16:46] How do you tell me?

Speaker 1:
[16:47] They cost $6 billion with a B.

Speaker 2:
[16:50] Which is, when you're talking about these numbers, that's nothing.

Speaker 1:
[16:54] It's insane. Let's keep following the money, okay? But we're going to move on to the private sector. The millionaires, they want to own the media companies, Eugene, and TV stations, and they want to own newspapers. But they might not get to, especially particularly in this one case.

Speaker 2:
[17:09] Exactly. You're talking about the judge who halted the next star, Tegna merger, on Friday of last week. He said the merger is, quote, presumed likely to violate antitrust laws. This was the deal that would have put 265, 265 local stations in the hands of one big company. What needs to be made very clear here is that most of the American people still get their news from local news. In February, Trump posted in favor of the merger, because that's what you're supposed to do as president, saying it would make for, quote, more competition against the enemy, the fake news national TV networks.

Speaker 1:
[17:48] I just don't understand.

Speaker 2:
[17:50] But Democratic state attorneys general sued to stop it.

Speaker 1:
[17:53] This is what he posted on his little social media site, Eugene, letting good deals get done like Next Star, Tecna will help knock out the fake news. I can't even continue to read this. It is insane because he criticized the purchase in November of 2025. About two and a half months prior to this post, now he has changed. It's all over the place. It's literally all over the place. Remember when Jimmy Kimmel was threatened and then was taken off the air by the local stations? Okay, it was...

Speaker 2:
[18:24] Next Star.

Speaker 1:
[18:24] It was Next Star that did that. Okay, so you tell me if this is a good idea, if these two should merge and now they own all the stations. So this is an example of why I like to say the bad billionaires, if you will. The bad billionaires are understanding the assignment. They're trying to buy up all the things.

Speaker 2:
[18:43] Because they want to craft the way people think about this country.

Speaker 1:
[18:45] Correct, because if you own the information infrastructure, the economy, you can dictate the information that people get and...

Speaker 2:
[18:53] Create the reality.

Speaker 1:
[18:53] Come on now, Clock It! Eugene, there are more bad billionaires. Let me just tell you something. Stuff is going down at the Baltimore Sun. This is a real life example. We're not talking about this in abstract ways, folks. The Baltimore Sun is a major newspaper in Baltimore, in Maryland, frankly, that's Baltimore Sun. It was like the newspaper. Shout out to the Baltimore banner, though. They have now come up out to get it out the mud because of what's going on at the sun. They were recently purchased by the executive chairman of the Sinclair broadcast group. Sinclair is a, I would argue, I think a lot of people would. a conservative leaning outlet, if you will. They own a lot of local TV stations. In many of the past elections, they've had their local folks read from the same script that basically sounds like that they are in a dystopian universe. We are concerned about the struggle of a train of irresponsible, one-sided news stories plaguing our country.

Speaker 7:
[19:52] Plaguing our country.

Speaker 1:
[19:53] The Baltimore Sun has been targeting, and since they got bought by Sinclair, they've been targeting Governor Westmore, okay? This is Governor Westmore on these investigations against him, talking to our colleague, Jen Psaki, on April 7th. Take a listen.

Speaker 10:
[20:07] The United States Army doesn't question my integrity. The soldiers I serve with don't question my integrity. But we are seeing how the right-wing and these right-wing billionaires like David Smith is then using his wealth to be able to manipulate local media and is doing it not just in Maryland, but this is a canary in the coal mine for things that are happening all over the country. And they're doing it to curry favor for Donald Trump.

Speaker 2:
[20:34] To be clear, it is not a given that if there's a billionaire that owns something, that that means that the reporters are all of a sudden going to write like the billionaire wants.

Speaker 3:
[20:41] However, correct, correct.

Speaker 1:
[20:43] I think that there's good billionaires, there's bad billionaires, and there's neutral billionaires that literally they don't give a ding-dong dip. They just want to own something. I think David Smith, in my opinion, falls into the bad billionaire category. And the people in Baltimore, and I definitely think in the governor's mansion, would agree in Maryland.

Speaker 2:
[21:02] I am also following what's happening at the Star, Symone. So this was a web start, starting with a grant from one of those good billionaires, Robert Albert, who co-founded Politico. I used to work for him. And in June, that website is going to relaunch using the name of a paper called The Washington Star that used to be very important here in DC. It is the paper that exposed the Tuskegee experiment in 1972.

Speaker 1:
[21:27] Yes. Now, the editor-in-chief told The New York Times that they're taking advantage of job and coverage cuts at The Washington Post, and they will actually double the size of their newsroom this year. That is very, very, very, very important.

Speaker 2:
[21:40] I will say a couple of things. One, Robert Albert's dad used to own The Washington Star. So that is the way to help to bring back his father and his family's legacy. Also having worked for Robert Albert, he is one of those folks who owns the news organization, who is not involved.

Speaker 1:
[21:57] So he's in one of the neutral billionaires.

Speaker 2:
[21:59] Yeah. He was not all up in our shit. He wasn't telling us what to do. We had no idea what stories he liked or didn't like. We, of course, saw him, right? I wrote playbooks. So we saw him. We went to dinner.

Speaker 1:
[22:11] You'd be like, I love that.

Speaker 3:
[22:12] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[22:12] Like, glad you're on the team.

Speaker 3:
[22:14] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[22:14] Exactly. Thank you for the money, sir. But at no point did he ever even intimate to us what he thought of the coverage, other than like y'all are killing it. Not like, oh, you need to change this, tweak this. Never. Now, I don't know if those conversations happened with the folks that were running the organization, but that's where those conversations are supposed to stay. And that is not what's happening at other organizations where billionaires own it, right? That is not what's happening according to all the people I know at the Washington Post.

Speaker 1:
[22:44] Come on. What about CBS?

Speaker 2:
[22:46] Okay. That is not what's happening. It is very clear to some of those reporters, either explicitly or implicitly, what the owners want. And that is not good for the reporters, the reporting or democracy itself.

Speaker 1:
[22:59] And it's not good for the people of this country. Because again, the Ellison family, they own a stake in TikTok. You talk about the billionaires. I'm thinking about Metta, which owns Facebook and WhatsApp. And Instagram. And threads and Instagram. These are all entities through which people are, you know, if you just poll them, this is where people are saying they're getting their news. And so the people who own these platforms and these organizations and these news stations and these newspapers, they are able to affect what people believe to be true. And that's scary if it's a bad billionaire who understands the assignment.

Speaker 2:
[23:35] Let's leave those billionaires behind. They can go. We'll keep their money.

Speaker 1:
[23:38] I would like to. Make me a billionaire. I will be one of the good ones.

Speaker 2:
[23:41] I would rob her because we have the very special Kaila Angela Davis joining our chat.

Speaker 1:
[23:49] Stay tuned. Stay tuned. See how we did it together. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[24:04] Welcome to the Group Chat. Michaela Angela Davis, founding fashion director of Vibe Magazine, former editor-in-chief of Honey Magazine, former fashion director of Essence Magazine. She coined the title Image Activist, and she is the author of the very honest and eye-opening memoir, Tenderheadin.

Speaker 1:
[24:23] Yes, Michaela Angela Davis. Thank you so much for coming to the Group Chat and coming on the podcast. She is iconic. Iconic. This is like living black history right here.

Speaker 2:
[24:33] 100%. No, actually. So your flowers, we give them to you.

Speaker 11:
[24:36] I caught them. I received them. I wish I was in the studio to kiki with you all. I love you. You're so fun and kinetic.

Speaker 2:
[24:43] Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[24:45] We see you got the green memo today. We did not even color coordinate this. Money. Money.

Speaker 2:
[24:49] You got money on our minds. We did not. I want to start because when I think about you, I think about the iconic run you had in the 90s and the aughts, and it felt like black media, media that was presenting us to the world, had a heyday. Everybody was there, but Vibe, Honey, Jet, Ebony, that whole ecosystem. But now that whole ecosystem is either gone or a shell of itself, sometimes owned by not black people. What did we actually lose when we lost that heyday of black media?

Speaker 11:
[25:28] Are you going to start with the most emotional question on the garden of media, Eugene? No, really, because I have some grief about it. And writing this book was helping me process that grief of losing. It wasn't even so much what I feel is a heyday. It was just that we were visible, we were seen. And part of wanting to get record of this in the book is so that there is a record, there is an archive that we were there. They were journalists, photographers, creative directors, graphic designers, not just the stories, but the industry, that we were above ground for a while, because there's a parallel universe, kind of like the movie Us, like underneath, there was Vibe and Honey and The Source and Rap Pages. And we were covering our culture for ourselves in our own voice. Just like at Vibe, we thought that we were the rolling stone of hip hop, that we were going to cover our own culture for the first time. And so losing, particularly our legacy institutions, like Ebony, so radical, where you had essays by James Baldwin and Martin Luther King Jr. and Andre Leontali was the fashion director. And it was covering black life in a way that no one else was doing. I remember a 70s issue talking about a yogi that lived in Hawaii. What is lost is a home base. When times like this are happening, when over 300,000 black women have lost their job, where do we go to, it would be essence. We would turn to essence right away, right? For a voice, a perspective, some help. And now some of the best black journalists you'll find at the Atlantic or the New Yorker. So we've lost kind of like the beauty shop and barber shop in the neighborhood. Like that's what it feels like. Like that place where you would just run in and get what you need, either to stay there or to go out into the world. We've had to build other kinds of communities that that used to provide for us.

Speaker 1:
[27:41] You know, it is so interesting because we often... I don't know, obviously I came up on the communication side of all of this. And I used to always... Early in my career, I would say I am the communications person that is also black, not the black communications person. Because I wanted them to know that like, yes, I'm black, but I can do it all. And later on in my career, what a mentor once told me, it was Mignan Moore. She said, you know, you need to know your community. And knowing your community, come on, right? She said, knowing your community will be your superpower. Because when you get into these rooms, you need to be able to know your community. My community is young people, my community is women, my community is black people, my community is black women. And I think, when I think about these publications, that to be clear, Essence is still around, Ebony is still around, but not like it was before. Ebony hasn't been in print since-

Speaker 11:
[28:30] Oh, it's not sprayed out on the table. You know, it's not sprayed out on the table.

Speaker 1:
[28:36] Yes, it's not the same thing.

Speaker 11:
[28:37] It's not spammed out at the beauty shop.

Speaker 1:
[28:40] Exactly. And frankly, they're not doing what we used to do. Like you wrote in your book about how, I believe it was her first assignment for Essence as fashion editor was to dress Anita Hill. And that was after she accused then Supreme Court nominee Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment. Like that is, that ain't happening. That is not happening now.

Speaker 11:
[29:02] I mean, that being your first assignment, that's when I knew that I was somewhere that made a difference, that there were black women that cared about black women's particulars handling Anita Hill, who was a superhero for all women. But we came in, I remember Susan famously saying, black women look different in fuchsia. So we give her a fuchsia jacket. That's not gonna happen at Vogue in the same way. Do you know what I mean? And the way that they feel. And I remember, I still call it the jet in my head. The jet had a television show. And you would see an interview with Sammy Davis Jr. in his house being a very different way than he would be on, say, the Dick Cavett show. This is all ancient history that I'm bringing up. But those things matter. And it was one of the things I think we were talking about, not to play auntie with you two, but for the two of you to be in news and coming out as authentically as you are something that we've been chipping at through black media. Black media gives you the courage and the confidence to go into any room with your face beat for the gods, your nails done, all your black sensibilities come with you and you're comfortable there. That's something we've been working on. But without having home base, and you all as millennials can actually let me know, do you feel that you're missing something by not having an essence or a honey or something like that to get your juices going?

Speaker 1:
[30:35] Do you feel like it?

Speaker 11:
[30:36] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[30:37] Because the shade room ain't cutting it. Let me just say no shade to the shade room. But the shade room is not cutting it. We need real journalism to tell real black stories.

Speaker 2:
[30:45] Part of it was like it was, when you have Vibe and Jet and Essence and Ebony and Honey and all the others, they're doing different things, right? So it's like there's not one view, not one myopic view of what black life is. I mean, every month, I would take my little $4.99 that I had to scrounge up, maybe give some plaques before, and go get my Vibe magazine. Every time that I've moved, I usually have like a huge stack. I finally, after like a decade or so of just carrying around, since college, a bunch of vibes, all these other things, some I kept, because some, there was some iconic covers, right? That it meant a connection. Because I also went to a PWI once.

Speaker 1:
[31:24] So did I, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:25] We went to, we did not go to HBCUs.

Speaker 1:
[31:27] No, we went to white schools.

Speaker 2:
[31:29] And it was a way to connect to my community.

Speaker 11:
[31:31] And you're from the Midwest, right, Symone?

Speaker 1:
[31:33] Yes, Omaha, me and Malcolm X. People don't know, Malcolm X is originally from North Omaha, Nebraska, down the street from my mama's house. But the neighborhood I grew up in was black. But I went to, my family is very African-American. But every day I would, I went to an all girls Catholic high school where there were maybe five black girls in my graduating class. I went to a Jesuit Catholic university where I can count the number of maybe 40 black people in the entire, I mean, they were members of the Creighton University African-American Student Association, Quassa, I can count us. And so those schools were not the totality of my black experience, like my community was, and these magazines and watching people like Michaela on TV, those were my lifelines to black life and black culture.

Speaker 11:
[32:21] It's kind of a piecemeal where you have to go to Shaevely on this, when with black women on the Sunday call to get the politics. You have to scrounge around.

Speaker 2:
[32:30] You're right. I mean, black media used to have such a political POV too. Like it was community-based writing. Like you're writing for the community so the community can see things. It's how journalism really started, where there was a POV. I wonder when there's no dedicated space, there's not the black photographers and the whole black room where they're deciding what stories matter and get put in the media. When that is not happening and deciding how black people look in the world, what does that do? Because it does feel like it's not just about the magazine aspect and losing like that, but it is a question of who is telling the story of black life in this country and how they're being able to do it. Are they being able to do it in a way that feels honest and truthful? I feel lucky to work at a place where we can do that, but that is not true at a lot of legacy institutions.

Speaker 11:
[33:31] Oh, correct. And it really is the stories because between Instagram and TikTok, there's a lot of beautiful images that people create for themselves, that are coming from all corners of the world. So other people get to see the spectrum of blackness because I think we get affirmed, but other people get informed by how diverse it is as a culture. But it's especially long-form stories where there was a day where you could, you know, follow Lil Kim around for two weeks and come out with this great big expose that gives her her layers and gives other black artists and politicians and people of note complexity. And now, I mean, I can tell when AI has written, you know, a review on, you know, a new album or something. So I think it's like not getting the laurys in your fried chicken. Like, okay, we still have access to chicken. You know, we still have access, but the laurys is missing. And so I think there's a charge ahead maybe for all of us. Like, you know, I'm writing now, so I'm doing more of that, trying to fill in gaps in other ways, because the generation behind you really isn't going to know. Because you just referenced having vibes in college and tearing out sheets and having these stories to read where Dream Hampton and Greg Tate wrote like beautiful, smart, deeply investigated and deeply thought, like think pieces people actually thought about them. Like now you get a think piece out, you know, in 30 seconds. When did we get time to have black thought and black complex thought? And particularly in a time like now, we have to lean on each other and we find it in like communities and like in group chats and all of that. But putting it out into the collective imagination is really important. And I don't know what that source is now. I mean, Clock It is that you all are doing your part, that we are having to find different places. I do wish there was like a place that felt like home, like Mama's House, like Susan Taylor used to make, to me, Essence feel like home. Or to some people, the source felt like that. Or rap pages, when you really want to read about real hip hop. So it's a question. And like I said, I'm still very much in mourning about missing that and missing who's next. You know, who's the next Dreamhansen? Who's the next Mikaela Angela Davis? You know, I mean, we've got Lindsay P. Bowles at The Cut. We've got a black editor at Elle. We've got a black editor at Vogue in the UK. We've got Jessica Krull at Allure. And she's the editor-in-chief of two magazines. So we've got some black editors holding on to their jobs and being magnificent, but we don't have a place where all of us are going to go gather after we leave our jobs at these institutions. Where do we go? Whose living room table has the magazine on it that we're going to pick up and talk about it? Let's really talk about Dochi. Let's really talk about what's happening in November. So, and that's the thing, is we miss the place where we can bounce from how we think about things, where everything is political, but also everything is stylish and funny. So where do we, your conversation does that a lot for us now. I'm really glad that this exists because the politics is so crazy. Y'all got to make it funny sometimes because you're not allowed to keep from crying out here.

Speaker 1:
[37:01] You got to cry and laugh, okay? And then cry and laugh again. You talk about the black women at these publications and it makes me think about, we were talking about Issa Rae. And the rap had its first ever creators and Hollywood Summit on April 8th. And she was the, Issa Rae was a keynote speaker. And she had a lot to say. She joined the rap's Raquel Calhoun on stage and she talked about the creator economy, but she also talked about how Hollywood has changed when it comes to representation. Take a look at what she says about execs of color and the tiptoeing that Issa Rae says is happening.

Speaker 12:
[37:34] I mean, I'm seeing it, like, just blatantly. People are scared and, and yeah, just not necessarily investing the same way that they would have before. Even executives who, you know, are of color are also, like, tiptoeing. I'm like, well, I can't co-sign you because I'm going to lose my job. And that's scary to see and sad to see.

Speaker 1:
[37:59] It's sad to see, it's scary to see. It is, in my opinion, a direct result of the politics of the moment. You know, people weren't, they weren't tiptoeing around when they thought Kamala Harris was about to be president. Okay, but because Donald Trump is the president, because of the climate that they have created, the attacks on, on, on black people, on civil rights, that's dressed up as an attack on DEI, but it's really about our civil rights infrastructure in this country, the laws, people are scared of just backing good projects, whether it is somebody investing in, in, in a magazine, right, for, for black journalists, whether it is investing in a show. People are scared because of the political climate.

Speaker 11:
[38:35] Yeah, I mean, this is a horrible thing to say, but I had an editor telling me that George Floyd was his executive producer, meaning when things were going down, people were scrambling to find black stories, black directors, and it was a false inclusion from Hollywood. And you could feel the sigh of relief when people felt like, oh, we don't have to do that anymore. So it's returning. So if you're one of those people that got in during that time, like I was able to create and executive produce the hairtails during that time. So good. Very good. But if I went now, you know, if I sat in front of a, you know, of a panel of bros and talked about, I wanted to make a show about black women's identity through the lens of hair. Like I couldn't even get that meeting today probably. So we know that this is one of those swing back times that we get punished for progress. That's part of our legacy. So we have these great moments of progress. Then we get punished, then we have more progress, then we get punished, then we have more progress. And black people, and I would argue black women in particular know how to weather this time better than anyone, but we tired. Like I don't want to build another ebony to its greatness. It's still here too. But to that greatness where the James Baldwin of today, the Ta-Nehisi wants to write for it. That's the part where the grief comes in. It's like Tulsa Burnett. How many times are we gonna have to build our own institutions so that we can operate in the global world? Like we still need that. And without horror, it takes blood to get people to move. And I'm hopeful that the next generation won't have to have tragedy be the wind that opens the door. Like you have to love us. Just let us make some work. And everybody benefits.

Speaker 2:
[40:34] Do you think there's a way back? Like I know you said you have hope that the next generation doesn't have to deal with the pain for the doors to open. But like in your heart of hearts, does it feel like there's a way back to what we're talking about?

Speaker 11:
[40:48] Eugene, I always feel like there's a way forward for black folks. I have to believe that. If I don't, I'm not getting up. You know, I have to believe. And our history shows us so much, so much to that evidence that we do keep getting up. There was no plan for y'all to sit here, you weren't supposed to make it. You are surplus population, leading shows, thought-leading, wearing lashes, talking about the president of the United States. So that in itself is proof that we have the resilience. And I don't know if we get to go back, but I do think we can go forward. But this is a tricky time. This is a time to like, I don't know, learn how to plant okra and spend some time with your grandmama and get strong. Because there's real life here.

Speaker 1:
[41:37] Okay, this is true.

Speaker 11:
[41:39] And we're going to need different kind of muscles, you know, to get through these next few years. But I believe in us, if we can rebuild from reconstruction, right? Like, it's been worse. It's been worse. I don't know if Jen Psaki wants to hear that. It's been worse. I want it to be better, like now. So we got to pull it up so they can have something to clock.

Speaker 1:
[42:02] Come on now, clock that. I think this is a perfect place to end, Michaela Angela Davis, I will say. I think we're in a post-reconstruction period right now. And just like in after reconstruction. I do too, I do too, Symone. Yes. And it was in that post-reconstruction period all those years ago where we built the institutions that have sustained us, where sororities and fraternities, the historically black Greek-lettered organizations came forth where some of our best, our best work was done in these really tragedy and trying times. So our ancestors built anyway then, so we have to build anyway now. Exactly.

Speaker 12:
[42:36] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[42:37] Thank you. We love you.

Speaker 12:
[42:38] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[42:39] You know what? I needed this conversation. Okay. We about to take up and collect the doors and the church are open. Exactly. Okay. We about to just open the doors, we're going to take up a collection, then we're going to come back for our favorite part of the show, the side chat. Don't go anywhere, folks. Michaela Angela Davis was just here. She blessed us. We'll meet you right here after the break.

Speaker 2:
[43:21] Welcome back to The Side Chat, where we love her.

Speaker 3:
[43:22] Shout out to Micaela Angela Davis.

Speaker 2:
[43:24] She's so good, so smart.

Speaker 1:
[43:25] Honestly, I miss seeing her. Remember growing up, you watch her on CNN all the time? I miss seeing her on television.

Speaker 2:
[43:31] Yes, we have to get her back. Well, we have to talk about the White House Correspondents' Dinner.

Speaker 1:
[43:37] It is happening on Saturday. Do you have thoughts?

Speaker 2:
[43:40] I think we should start with your thoughts.

Speaker 1:
[43:41] Okay, well, first of all, people should understand that the White House Correspondents' Dinner is happening on Saturday, okay, this Saturday, as you were listening to this. And for the first time, in either of his terms, Donald Trump will be there. And there are many people, if you listen to this podcast, you have heard Don Lemon, okay, saying that, you know, he thinks it's a travesty.

Speaker 2:
[43:59] He does not believe in the First Amendment.

Speaker 4:
[44:01] It's a slap in the face to the American people that they even invited him.

Speaker 1:
[44:04] I am someone that believes, first of all, I will be at the dinner, okay, because I support good journalism, I support the First Amendment, and I'm at work. And I am going to work, and I will be working by attending the dinner. I do think, though, that in unprecedented times, we have to take some unprecedented steps, and we have to do some things that we have not done before. And I understand that they've already invited him. They is in the White House Correspondents Association, so Donald Trump is coming. But what do you do when he gets there? I will not be standing to clap for a president that does not actually believe in the First Amendment, okay?

Speaker 2:
[44:37] The thing that I think is so interesting is, we're all trying to figure out what it's going to look like. A lot of this is I'm withholding judgment. Also, Weezha Zhang is a friend of mine. She was my vice president when I was president last year.

Speaker 1:
[44:49] She's the current president?

Speaker 2:
[44:50] She's the current president of the association. She's a senior White House correspondent at CBS, and she takes seriously the threats that Donald Trump, his administration, and really anyone present to the First Amendment and the work that her association does all the time. I do not speak for the association, but I know that about Weezha. But I have talked to a lot of different reporters who are going to be. I will also be there at work.

Speaker 1:
[45:15] Have you talked to people within the White House Correspondent Association? Correct.

Speaker 2:
[45:18] On the board or in the association?

Speaker 1:
[45:20] In the association because there were a number of journalists who were not members of the White House Correspondent Association, but like 400 journalists, they wrote this letter, like Dan Rather signed it, like iconic Dan Rather. They wrote this letter basically urging the White House Correspondent Association to take a stand in some way, shape, or form on Saturday, like be tougher while Donald Trump is sitting there. And in response to that, I guess we just was asked about it. And part of her statement said, you know, she answers to the members of her association, and she has not heard concerns from members within her association.

Speaker 2:
[45:50] They may not have told her that that happens when I will say, when you are president, some of the stuff does not bubble up to you. People do not come to you and complain. They complain about a lot of stuff, but that some of this stuff, they did not come to me.

Speaker 1:
[46:01] That's maybe where you and Donald Trump also can identify, because when you, you know, like...

Speaker 2:
[46:06] You don't know what the VP is doing. But when I talk to folks who are within the association, not on the board, to be clear, what they are struggling with is like, if he goes, like, ham on us, we're just supposed to sit there? Do we stand when he walks in the room? Do we clap? Is there going to be a toast to the president? I will say this, when I was president last year, Donald Trump did not come. I was not surprised by this, considering me, the administrations, on the First Amendment issues. I was in court with the Associated Press almost every week. So he did not come. And my preparation for the dinner was trying to write a speech that would work whether or not he came. But I had the side section that if he did come, it was really important for me to say to him, right, in his face, the kinds of things that are not okay. And I think that is maybe what the letter was about. Like the letter didn't say like cancel it or walk out.

Speaker 1:
[47:08] No, the letter said y'all gotta take a stand in some way, shape, or form.

Speaker 2:
[47:11] And what does that stand look like?

Speaker 1:
[47:12] And it ain't just wearing a button.

Speaker 2:
[47:13] And there's, no, there are a lot of folks that will be wearing First Amendment buttons.

Speaker 1:
[47:16] I would put a button on, but to be clear, I don't think anybody has a question about where I stand in terms of like the First Amendment or the president. You know, like we speak out against it every single day. You know, we stand up for like what is right. But I do think that like the optics of this are going to be very important.

Speaker 2:
[47:31] It's going to be difficult.

Speaker 1:
[47:32] When he takes a jab at the journalists in the room, which he will do, you know, I don't think trampling on the First Amendment or democracy is funny. So I won't be laughing. And I think people need to be prepared and know that everybody will be watching everything. And you know, if they don't, we'll see what happens. We will talk about it next week. You know, I'm feeling fancy and fresh because I'm off that cruise, child. So I'm ready to go. Okay, ready to go.

Speaker 2:
[47:57] I think so much of it is also like, it causes you to also question and within yourself, like what will I do? Because in the moment is not the time to make the decision. Something like this is is happening. Like you said, you're not going to be standing when he walks in.

Speaker 3:
[48:12] I think a lot of people are going to figure it out.

Speaker 1:
[48:14] I won't be laughing. Regardless of who the president of the United States is, when the president of the United States walks into a room, the vice president of the United States walks into a room, you do stand. And perhaps that is because, you know, your training, my training. Like I used to work for a president and a vice president. Is it about the office? And so standing when the president walks into the room, regardless of who the president is, does not mean you endorse what they're saying. But like, I don't have to laugh at what you're saying. I don't need to clap at what you're doing. Like, but I do think that when the president walks into the room, you should stand regardless of who the president is.

Speaker 2:
[48:43] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[48:43] Well, Clock It.

Speaker 2:
[48:45] Thanks so much for listening to Clock It.

Speaker 1:
[48:47] OK, if you like what you heard, please rate us five stars, five only, and leave a review.

Speaker 2:
[48:53] Nice ones. Yes. You can subscribe to MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MS NOW podcasts for ad free. No ads. As a subscriber, you also get exclusive bonus content.

Speaker 1:
[49:05] And this week, you can hear a special bonus episode of Trump Land with Alex Wagner. It's about the Hungarian election that ousted autocrat Viktor Orban earlier this month. It's so good. Alex catches up with a member of the Hungarian parliament about what Orban's ouster means for Hungary and what it could mean for politics here at home.

Speaker 2:
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