transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] This week, in Columbus, Indiana, after the suspicious death of a man in his estranged wife's backyard, detectives assume that it's just a sad tragedy. But when people start coming forward with information, they must decide whether he did it to himself, or if a certain dessert item could be the culprit. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmie. Yay, indeed. My name is James Pietragallo. I'm here with my co-host.

Speaker 2:
[00:43] I'm Jimmie Whisman.

Speaker 1:
[00:45] Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another absolutely wild edition of Small Town Murder. As you know, we had a serial killer for the regular episode last week. We've had a lot of crazy stuff here, and this is no different. So buckle up, because it's gonna be nuts here. Before we get into this, definitely head over to shutupandgivemurder.com. Get your tickets for everything, all the live shows that are out there. First of all, the next live show with tickets available, May 2nd in Denver. Still some seats for that.

Speaker 2:
[01:16] They're going so fast.

Speaker 1:
[01:17] They're going fast. And then Royal Oak, Michigan too. I think there's a few left for that one as well on May 30th. And then after the summer, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Tarrytown and Boston. Oh boy. And then our funerals in early December. So that'll be a nice thing. You can all come to that. You can all mourn us. So that's how that's gonna work. Definitely do that. Shut up and give me murder.com. Also get yourself Patreon. Do yourself a favor. Get yourself Patreon. patreon.com/crime In Sports. Just like the name of the other show that we do that you should listen to. And you will love even if you don't like sports. It's a great show. Do that. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything, everything we put out immediately. And that is including, as soon as you subscribe, you're going to get hundreds, over 300 back bonus episodes, whole big catalog of those to binge, and then new ones every other week. One Crime In Sports, one Small Town Murder, and how much of that do they get?

Speaker 2:
[02:15] All of it.

Speaker 1:
[02:16] Every damn drop of it. That's right. This week is no different. Patreon this week. For Crime In Sports, we're going to talk about the, I believe it's the Ecclesia Athletic Association, which was a program in California for inner city kids to get them off the streets and get them into sports. And what do you think happened there? Turned into a big, weird cult thing, and it's creepy. And then for Small Town Murder, it is Corey Richins Part 2. We've had people can't wait for that. We are excited. That's the woman who poisoned her husband and then wrote a grief book for her children about it, which is insanity. You'll get to all that and more. patreon.com/crime In Sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show as well. And then you get everything we put out. Crime In Sports, Your Stupid Opinions, and Small Town Murder all ad free with your Patreon as well. You can't beat it, everybody. That said, disclaimer time.

Speaker 2:
[03:13] Here we go.

Speaker 1:
[03:14] Hey, this is a comedy show, everybody. We are comedians. Unfortunately, people are gonna die here. And whether we do a show about them or not, they're still dead. That's the thing. Still dead and we still didn't kill them. So don't be mad at us for that is what we're saying here. We are gonna make jokes and people are gonna die. And you go, well, how does that work? Well, we follow a very simple rule that I think helps a lot. And that's we never make fun of the victim or the victim's family.

Speaker 2:
[03:41] Why, James?

Speaker 1:
[03:42] Because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags. See how that works? See, that's it. We think everything falls under those parameters. Things happen. There's crazy stories and crazy stuff going on behind, and that's where the jokes all come from. We'll make fun of a small town, because who cares? Everybody's from a small town to make fun of. It doesn't matter. We'll make fun of murderers. We'll make fun of a police force that screws everything up and lets somebody kill a bunch like they did in the last episode. And so that's what we do here. So yeah, that sounds good to you. You're going to hear a crazy story. If you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together, this might not be the place for you. Or it might be. That's the thing. You never know. I say give it a shot. No complaining later. What do you say? Everybody, that's the important part. So I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. Let's all clear the lungs. There we go. Here, arms to the sky and let's all shout. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we?

Speaker 2:
[04:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[04:47] All right, let's do this. We are going to Indiana this week, Columbus, Indiana.

Speaker 2:
[04:54] Can't fuck that up.

Speaker 1:
[04:55] There's a Columbus everywhere. Oh, I'm sure there's some pronunciation that's wrong.

Speaker 2:
[04:59] Columbus.

Speaker 1:
[05:00] Ooh, the Louisiana people, you guys are brutal about these.

Speaker 2:
[05:03] Columbus.

Speaker 1:
[05:05] Listen, Louisiana, there is not a, you barely speak English down there, first of all. So how dare you say anything about pronunciations. Whatever you're saying, you're saying it wrong. I'll just say that. We'll tell you what the English translation of it is for you.

Speaker 2:
[05:21] Or the French, fuck you.

Speaker 1:
[05:22] Yeah, or say it in French. I don't know. Then I wouldn't know what you're talking about. But this is in south central Indiana, about 50 minutes to Indianapolis, about an hour and 10 to Louisville in the other direction. So two mediocre cities within an hour's drive of you. And then about an hour and 45 to Williamsburg, Indiana. But that's our last Indiana episode, episode 654, Death in the Family, which you'll want to go back and listen to because it was crazy. Now, this is in Bartholomew County. Bartholomew. Area codes 812 and 930. It's got two area codes because it's also got a nickname and a motto. So they're living it up here. The motto here, unexpected, unforgettable.

Speaker 2:
[06:12] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:13] It's like a Calvin Klein ad from the 80s. Two people dressed in flowy white clothes with windblow and making out and they say, unexpected, unforgettable, Calvin Klein.

Speaker 2:
[06:23] And Justin Bieber pointing down and going, my pee-pee is in there.

Speaker 1:
[06:27] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:28] Did you see that Kate McKinnon sketch? You probably didn't.

Speaker 1:
[06:30] No.

Speaker 2:
[06:32] It's one of the best things in my life.

Speaker 1:
[06:33] Kate McKinnon's fine.

Speaker 2:
[06:34] I've done in the last 10 years. It's amazing.

Speaker 1:
[06:37] There's like two things. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:39] That's what I mean. Kate McKinnon and the CK.

Speaker 1:
[06:41] I gave up on SNL a long time ago.

Speaker 2:
[06:43] She's incredible.

Speaker 1:
[06:45] She's great. Yeah, she's great. But yeah, they didn't have anything funny going on for a while. And it's not even their fault. It's just that how do you collect? It's all been done. Well, it's all been done by Saturday. That's the problem. There's no more commentary that needs to be said. It's been meme-ified all week.

Speaker 2:
[07:01] Oh, God, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:02] So nickname of this town, Athens of the Prairie. Some balls on these people.

Speaker 2:
[07:08] Athens, Georgia or Greece?

Speaker 1:
[07:10] Athens, like where all the stuff comes from. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[07:15] Diplomacy and shit, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:16] Athens of the Prairie. Yeah. Okay. A little bit of history here. The land developed as Columbus was bought by General John Tipton, and a guy named Luke Bonesteel.

Speaker 2:
[07:29] Bonesteel.

Speaker 1:
[07:30] Bonesteel. He has, talk about, I've never seen anyone leave such a lucrative country music career on the table as Luke Bonesteel because I mean, honestly, whatever you did, you blew it.

Speaker 2:
[07:41] Are you sure he did?

Speaker 1:
[07:43] He wasn't a country music star, so no. Luke Bonesteel.

Speaker 2:
[07:47] He might have been.

Speaker 1:
[07:49] No, not in 1820, unfortunately for him. Tipton built a log cabin on Mount Tipton, a small hill overlooking the White River, and the town was first known as Tiptona. Tiptona, with an A, Tiptona, named in honor of Tipton. They changed the town's name because it was stupid, to Columbus.

Speaker 2:
[08:13] Because it sucks.

Speaker 1:
[08:14] Because it was real dumb and people were making fun of them. On March 20th, 1821, all the other towns around were mocking them.

Speaker 2:
[08:22] Wouldn't it last a year? How long did it last?

Speaker 1:
[08:24] Yeah, about a year, not long. People believe that Tipton was upset by the name change, but we're not sure about that. But either way, he founded the town and built the first everything and then left after they changed the name. So I think he was pissed off about it. I don't think they liked him very much here. In 1821, basically, there was three or four log cabins developed around the ferry landing, and then they added a store in 1821. So that's what there was.

Speaker 2:
[08:53] Well, when you got a good, strong name like Columbus, you got to have a store around here.

Speaker 1:
[08:58] Like Tiptona.

Speaker 2:
[09:00] Tiptona didn't have a store.

Speaker 1:
[09:02] No store in Tiptona. And then later that year, the county was organized, and Columbus was incorporated as a town in 1864, and then as a city in 1921.

Speaker 2:
[09:14] Very much like Columbus. Already established and throws his name on it.

Speaker 1:
[09:18] Throws his name on everything. Hey, there's people already here. I found this. It's Columbus. Reviews of this town since we've never been here, and hopefully won't be anytime soon. We have other people's opinions. This place has 3.9 stars out of 174 reviews on Niche, so well-reviewed. Here's five stars. Columbus is a city I would visit if I didn't already live here. Wrap your brain around that.

Speaker 2:
[09:48] Unravel that one. Just say that.

Speaker 1:
[09:50] Columbus is a city I would visit if I didn't already live here, is the dumbest sentence ever uttered. With architecture and plenty of activities for weekend stays, it combines small town charm and big city diversity in one. I would, however, like to see more unique activity shops for dates. Activity shops for dates. Do they mean like escape rooms? Escape rooms and fucking axe throwing and whatever douchebags do on dates?

Speaker 2:
[10:22] Have you seen those? They do those now.

Speaker 1:
[10:24] Oh, God.

Speaker 2:
[10:25] Cookie dates, James.

Speaker 1:
[10:26] Cookie dates? Whatever happened to having a couple of glasses of wine and seeing where this thing goes? What are we doing? What are we doing to the people?

Speaker 2:
[10:33] Seeing what their genitals taste like.

Speaker 1:
[10:35] What are we doing?

Speaker 2:
[10:36] This is terrible.

Speaker 1:
[10:38] Jesus Christ. I don't want to hear people blaming anything else. Oh, there's too much birth control, so there's some populations out. I don't want to hear any of that shit. This is the problem. When you go on your first date to paint a fucking cookie, you're laying down no sexual undertone to that whatsoever.

Speaker 2:
[10:53] None.

Speaker 1:
[10:54] Nothing's going to happen.

Speaker 2:
[10:55] The exact opposite, actually.

Speaker 1:
[10:56] The exact opposite. Of course. Yeah, you're neutering the relationship for the rest of it right there. This is our relationship.

Speaker 2:
[11:05] Ridiculous.

Speaker 1:
[11:06] Just like two ants that get together to make cookies. That's who we are. So, yeah, I would like to see that, as well as diversity in dining. I guess, you know, more than just the Taco Bell, maybe a real Mexican joint. Here's five stars. Columbus has so many nice people. It has a small hometown feel. There's plenty to do, and it is beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[11:29] Yeah, and if you lived here, you'd already be home.

Speaker 1:
[11:32] You'd already be home.

Speaker 2:
[11:33] Remember that?

Speaker 1:
[11:33] That's what the sign says.

Speaker 2:
[11:35] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[11:36] Here is three stars. I love the architecture and beauty within Columbus, but drugs have become such an epidemic that I feel it's losing its beauty.

Speaker 2:
[11:45] Yeah, it's every town.

Speaker 1:
[11:46] It's, yeah. Oh, not drugs. Really? Very unique that you have drug addicts there. Here's two stars. This is not a town that promotes young adult growth. I don't know if you have to promote it. They're growing no matter what. They're gonna grow. You can't stop them.

Speaker 2:
[12:03] It's just nature, man.

Speaker 1:
[12:04] It's just nature. And honestly, it is not very popular amongst well-mannered individuals.

Speaker 2:
[12:13] Oh, it's only the Surly folks.

Speaker 1:
[12:15] So yeah, this town is not popular amongst well-mannered individuals, apparently.

Speaker 2:
[12:19] What's the population? Did you say that yet?

Speaker 1:
[12:21] Not yet. No, we'll get to that in about 15, 20, or about a minute. Yeah. Two stars. Lots of people get kicked out of their homes because they stop paying rent. Well, that's what happens. Yeah. Cause and effect. Because it seems most of them do drugs because of all the traffic in the houses and the houses stay vacant for long periods of time. You just described drugs. That's drugs. Yeah. One star. The nightlife here is awful. Really? In Columbus, Indiana? I'd expect it to be.

Speaker 2:
[12:55] I just found out about it.

Speaker 1:
[12:56] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[12:57] I haven't been yet.

Speaker 1:
[12:58] There's nothing for adults to do except get into trouble. Well, there are only a few decent bars here, and I would not even say that they were decent. I would rather drive 45 minutes north and go to Indianapolis than stay here in town. Yeah, that's what you do. Yeah, that's your 45 minutes. But I guess if you want to drink or something, that's not fun. Then you have to Uber. It's an expensive Uber.

Speaker 2:
[13:19] You get a hotel. This is what you do when you don't live in a city.

Speaker 1:
[13:24] Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. But people, a lot of times, they don't have the money to go to a city and go to get a hotel just to get drunk for the night. You can drink at home, I guess, but yeah, that's what I mean.

Speaker 2:
[13:33] Get yourself a handle and shut up.

Speaker 1:
[13:34] I get what you're complaining about, but you know what you can do, not live in a small town.

Speaker 2:
[13:38] Right.

Speaker 1:
[13:38] That's the solution to that. I would rather drive 45 minutes north and go to Indianapolis. Also, with the restaurant, I would rather drive 30 minutes to Greenwood and eat up there. The variety is much greater than here. Same complaints, not enough restaurants, stupid date options. Okay, population here, 50,718.

Speaker 2:
[13:59] Wow!

Speaker 1:
[14:00] This has gone up a lot. In 2000, they had 39,000 people. So it's...

Speaker 2:
[14:04] No nightlife with 50,000 people?

Speaker 1:
[14:06] 50,000 people. You'd think there would be some nightlight.

Speaker 2:
[14:09] I think there's a problem here.

Speaker 1:
[14:10] Yeah, I think it's Indiana is the problem here. Let's see, women in this town, 49.3%, 50.7% are men. So more men than women in a big town. That's not great for the guys there. Median age here, 35.7%, it's a little lower than the national average because there is a college here as well. Indiana University, Columbus. Oh, is that right? Yeah, so you would imagine there would be bars at least if there's colleges. That makes no sense. Family in this town...

Speaker 2:
[14:40] Although, James, when it's a town like that and you go to a bar in a town that's... It's the fucking worst to go to a college bar.

Speaker 1:
[14:49] I live in Poughkeepsie. I live five minutes from Vassar College.

Speaker 2:
[14:52] I tried to go over to the Derby on Halloween, not a chance.

Speaker 1:
[14:56] No, go there.

Speaker 2:
[14:57] Packed with college kids. I'm going...

Speaker 1:
[14:58] Packed with them. See ya. Yeah, they're the worst. They're uppity little shit still.

Speaker 2:
[15:03] Oh, James, they have way better cars than I have.

Speaker 1:
[15:07] Indiana University, Columbus, they might be a little more down to earth. These Vassar kids are all like, you know, my dad was in a sitcom. Well, fuck you. You know, it's all those...

Speaker 2:
[15:17] They're driving $80,000 lifted trucks. These kids I feel like drive Kia's.

Speaker 1:
[15:21] For sure. This is a Kia University here. 53.5% married despite the young population of college kids, so the rest of it is very kind of suburban family, all that kind of shit. 17.7% are single with children, so that's a little higher than the national average. Race in this town, 79% white, 2.5% black, 10.4% asian. Must be a decent college.

Speaker 2:
[15:49] No kidding.

Speaker 1:
[15:50] And 5.7% Hispanic here. 49.5% of the people here are religious, so that's just about the national average, and it is a hodgepodge. There is nothing real. Lutheran has the most.

Speaker 2:
[16:04] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[16:05] And that's 9%, so it's a real hodgepodge. 17% other Christian faith, so don't know what that is, but that takes the day. Low unemployment rate here. Median household income, a little bit higher than the national average, $72,380, so not terrible.

Speaker 2:
[16:21] Dang. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[16:22] Especially for a college town. Usually, they're pretty low.

Speaker 2:
[16:24] Right.

Speaker 1:
[16:25] You know, just to take into account the college kids on average. Cost of living here, $100 is regular average. Here, it's $83, so a little bit low, and the housing is even lower. The housing, $230,100 is the median home cost.

Speaker 2:
[16:40] Kind of a great place to be if you just want to... Being in bed by seven.

Speaker 1:
[16:44] That's the thing, yeah. If you're just real boring and you like to sit around... Sounds awesome. It sounds great. And if you do like to sit around, and if this sounds perfect for you, you're in luck. We have for you the Columbus, Indiana Real Estate Report. Average two-bedroom rental here goes for 1,070 bucks, which is below the national average. Not bad for a college town. House number one, two-bedroom, one-bath, 840 square feet. It's a little house. Built in 1900, very-

Speaker 2:
[17:22] Kind of a cool old house.

Speaker 1:
[17:23] That's kind of cool. The problem is, it's like four feet from the tiny, cool little old house next to it. That's the other. Looks like you could reach out a window and touch the siding on the other house.

Speaker 2:
[17:33] You could touch somebody with sugar.

Speaker 1:
[17:35] Yeah, that's a little- Yeah, you could be like Godfather 2 and hand-vito the tablecloth full of guns and say, here, hold on to that. That's what's going on here. 110,000 bucks for this. I mean, it's in fine shape and all, but that's expensive for a little tiny house. No. Here is a three-bedroom, two-bath, 2,528 square foot. So two-story, you can stick your family in there. Built in 1948. Again, not a big lot, pretty small lot, but nicely done on the inside. Fireplaces, hardwood floors, decent house. Just had a $15,000 price cut. Good news, everybody. $220,000 for that bad boy. 2,300 square feet, not bad. And the next house is, it's a gigantic log cabin. It looks like a resort, like a ski lodge.

Speaker 2:
[18:30] It's a big one.

Speaker 1:
[18:31] Three-bedroom, four-bath, tee-bowl for each and every beehole. 5,580 square feet on 220 acres. Oh! It is just the woods, it's awesome. And it sits like, Holy! And you can't even see it. It sits up on a hill behind a bunch of trees. It's like a ski lodge, it's cool as shit.

Speaker 2:
[18:52] Amazing.

Speaker 1:
[18:52] You're gonna pay for it, though. $4,490,000 for that. And that's fine.

Speaker 2:
[19:00] I mean, you gotta have $5 million. Yeah. Unload some of the land and make it more affordable. I don't know. That seems like a decent deal.

Speaker 1:
[19:08] Yeah. I don't know what this land is worth without the house and vice versa type of thing. I'm not sure. Things to do here. Okay. We have Chuck Taylor Day.

Speaker 2:
[19:18] What?

Speaker 1:
[19:18] That Chuck Taylor. Yeah. The inaugural Chuck Taylor Day was held in June of 2025, celebrating the local basketball legend and creator of, of course, the Chuck Taylor Converse there. And they're attempting to get a Guinness World Record for the most Chuck Taylors in one place, people wearing the sneakers.

Speaker 2:
[19:39] Shoes, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:41] Most people wearing them.

Speaker 2:
[19:42] I mean, I think that's Coles, but I could be wrong.

Speaker 1:
[19:44] Yeah, probably. They also have live music that they don't feel necessary to even tell you about. Oh, no, we have those. Then there's also an unveiling of a giant 10-foot fiberglass sneaker. Not of Chuck Taylor the guy, the sneaker, a giant fiberglass one.

Speaker 2:
[20:04] Imagine that.

Speaker 1:
[20:06] That is amazing.

Speaker 2:
[20:07] Imagine in 60 years, there's a Jimmie and James Day, and they just unveil a 20-foot microphone.

Speaker 1:
[20:15] Just a big dick of a microphone sitting there. Sure.

Speaker 2:
[20:20] Why not?

Speaker 1:
[20:21] That's perfect. Just a You Sir May Fuck Off shirt. That's what they make a big.

Speaker 2:
[20:27] A 20-foot fiberglass one.

Speaker 1:
[20:29] By the way, somebody got that on their middle finger, I saw, tattooed.

Speaker 2:
[20:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:34] I was like, wow, that is pretty damn badass. Awesome.

Speaker 2:
[20:36] That is fucking cool, I guess. It's a choice to make.

Speaker 1:
[20:40] It's a choice. It's a strong choice. But I mean, it's on your middle finger, so it's making a statement.

Speaker 2:
[20:44] It's the right one.

Speaker 1:
[20:45] Live music from The Bourne Mountaineer and The Revelators, two separate bands. Revelators. Okay. And there's also food trucks. There's also the Ethnic Expo that will be there.

Speaker 2:
[21:00] That's all the music?

Speaker 1:
[21:01] That's all the music you're getting for Chuck Taylor. For Chuck Taylor Day. The Ethnic Expo is the one everybody talks about because they have good food. It's their own little World's Fair, it seems like, where they have good food from everywhere. Very interesting group of musicians here. You have the Mariachi Sol Gialis Saience. You got that. Then you have the Southern Indiana Tyco. DJ Smooth G will be there. Gotta have him. And then closing it out, Bruce Humphreys. Everybody knows about old Bruce Humphreys.

Speaker 2:
[21:37] So, good morning DJ.

Speaker 1:
[21:38] Yeah, Bruce Humphreys here. Giving you your top 10 of 10s this morning.

Speaker 2:
[21:44] Bruce Humphreys, 97.5.

Speaker 1:
[21:45] Bruce Humphreys, 97.5. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They all sound like.

Speaker 2:
[21:51] Driving and weather.

Speaker 1:
[21:52] Driving and weather. Crime rate in this town, this is wild. Property crime, usually a little higher in a college town, this is obscene here, almost double the national average.

Speaker 2:
[22:01] God damn.

Speaker 1:
[22:02] There's a lot. And then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime, that's about half the average. So that seems like just a lot of college bullshit goes on here. Yeah. That said, let's talk about some murder. What do you say?

Speaker 2:
[22:17] Here we go.

Speaker 1:
[22:19] All right, here, let's talk about a man first off here. Let's talk about a dude, Alan Duvall here. A-L-A-N, that's just a million ways to spell Alan. And then Duvall also D-U-V-A-L-L. That could be one D, one L, one, two Ls, you never know. He's born November 6th, 1945. Okay. So, post-war, just post-war, baby boom. His dad got home and got a plow and-

Speaker 2:
[22:48] You betcha.

Speaker 1:
[22:49] He's second. He still had the top of his Navy uniform on and that dumb fucking hat. He just took those white pants off and went right to work.

Speaker 2:
[22:58] The photographer stopped taking pictures when he dipped and kissed her.

Speaker 1:
[23:02] Well, when he lifted her skirt up, the photographer was like, I better turn this way. This is going to be- He's being decent to watch. This is going to be salacious. They'll never run this on the front page. So, he's born in Indiana. His parents are Joe Duvall and Mary Robbins. Alan enters the Navy when he's a young man.

Speaker 2:
[23:23] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[23:24] So, follows there, I think.

Speaker 2:
[23:25] In the late 50s? Well, I guess 60s, huh?

Speaker 1:
[23:28] Yeah, this would be like 1963, something like that. Terrible timing for Vietnam, by the way. Couldn't be worse to join the military in 1963 or four. Not great.

Speaker 2:
[23:37] Was that a lot of Navy involvement there?

Speaker 1:
[23:39] Fuck yeah. Yeah, tons of- there's a lot of everybody involved. I mean, the Army was your main. You're sitting on the front lines, whatever, but the Navy, they were over there.

Speaker 2:
[23:47] Shit.

Speaker 1:
[23:47] They were sure as hell sitting over there, doing all that shit.

Speaker 2:
[23:50] So not a lot of fire coming to them, but not too much, unless you're in a fucking helicopter, I guess.

Speaker 1:
[23:56] But yeah, or one of the poor bastards in the, when they did the whole bullshit thing of blowing up the ship for-

Speaker 2:
[24:03] Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:04] Yeah, one of those poor bastards. So one of his friends said after he got out of the Navy, he worked on the oil field, I think, out in Oklahoma or somewhere out west.

Speaker 2:
[24:15] He's choosing some tough gigs, man.

Speaker 1:
[24:17] He just goes west toward the oil fields. That's where he's going.

Speaker 2:
[24:21] Go until it turns brown. Stop there and pull out a drill.

Speaker 1:
[24:25] Go until everything looks dead and then just start attempting. So he worked for years as a jewelry salesman also at a Columbus jewelry store in Columbus, Indiana. After that, after it went out of business, then he never really got, he never really had a steady gig from then on out of like, didn't work at one place for 10 years or anything like that. After the jewelry store, he went from job to job. He did a lot of maintenance. He did like landscaping and maintenance for local hotels. And-

Speaker 2:
[24:57] It's a tough gig too.

Speaker 1:
[24:59] Yeah, he lived at a hotel also where he got free room and board for being the maintenance man. So that's what he does. Now this, he, in spite of this, despite his, you know, seeming lack of steady and really substantial income, he apparently really likes fancy things, everybody says. He likes nice things. Well, some people don't care. Some people don't like fancy things.

Speaker 2:
[25:24] Yeah, I guess that's true too.

Speaker 1:
[25:26] Some people, if you get them a Rolex, they'd rather have a Casio. It's just the way they are.

Speaker 2:
[25:30] But he's got a real penchant for it.

Speaker 1:
[25:31] He's got it. Yeah, he wants it. He likes a good car. He likes to wear a little jewelry here and there. Oh, by the way, not even Italian, by the way, from before. Yeah, weird. He, strange, right? What's his excuse?

Speaker 2:
[25:48] You guys aren't even privy to this. God damn it.

Speaker 1:
[25:50] So, he needed, yeah, that's a...

Speaker 2:
[25:55] That was before we even started this shit.

Speaker 1:
[25:57] Yeah, it was. Yeah, that was before. It's a long story. That's a long story, guys. But yeah, anyway, he needed three jobs to keep up with shit sometimes.

Speaker 2:
[26:09] To keep up with his spending habits.

Speaker 1:
[26:11] If you wanna have fancy shit and you're willing to work three jobs and make enough money to get it, good for you. Or you could work five jobs. If you don't mind working five jobs, so you can get a nice watch or a necklace or a nice car or whatever the fuck. He's married for a while. He has two sons from his first marriage. And he lived with his wife in Kentucky and ran his own business for a while as well. And that didn't work out and he ends up back in Indiana after they get divorced. And like I said, he has two sons. Now people love the guy. He's described by a lot of people as the life of the party and just a real fun guy to be around. His cousin described him as, quote, just a wonderful man. Wonderful. They said he was life of the party, but not obnoxious at all. Just actually making people feel comfortable all the time, very socially apt and that sort of shit. People who, they said he'd also like, he was very boisterous, but not obnoxious. Yeah, and there's a line there. There's a very thin line where that treads into obnoxiousness. Oh yeah, big time. And he doesn't apparently, he stays on the right side of that line. People said that, if you were sad, he'd make you laugh. He'd always be smiling. His one cousin said he was just like an angel, just the sweet, sweet man that he was. He was always making you laugh. He'd get out on the dance floor with you at the movies and just dance around. What movies have dance floors? I've seen like tables where they bring food in and shit, but...

Speaker 2:
[27:53] Well, maybe they mean like drive-in. Is there a dance thing there? I can't think of another place where there's a movie.

Speaker 1:
[28:02] That's about as good a thing as I can't think of anything better. Yeah, maybe the... I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[28:06] I can't imagine whatever their AMC is. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:10] Yeah, he'd get you out on the dance floor with you, or he'd get out on the dance floor with you at the movies and just dance around. Take that for whatever it is. I don't know what that means. But apparently, it's fun. That's the translation here.

Speaker 2:
[28:21] It's a good time, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:22] And you know, he was just always saying something funny. As he gets older even into like the early 2000s, so you know, he's in his 50s, pushing 60s. He's very active. Everybody said he really likes his cars. He likes hanging out with his family. He plays a lot of weekend pick up basketball games.

Speaker 2:
[28:43] Is that right? In his 50s.

Speaker 1:
[28:44] In his 50s, so yeah, oh god, I hated those guys. Hated playing against those guys. They're the sweatiest men. Their shirts are soaked. Either that or they take their shirt off and you had to have your forearm into their sweaty back hair. Those are the options. Those guys are brutal. I'm not saying that's him, but.

Speaker 2:
[29:01] Their body is so slippery.

Speaker 1:
[29:03] It's slippery and it's heavy in a weird way. As a teenager, I hated that when the older guys were playing.

Speaker 2:
[29:09] They always want to lean their shoulders into you like Shaquille O'Neal. It's like, bro.

Speaker 1:
[29:14] That's to put their sweat on you. That's what they know. You're going to lean back. Oh god, you're not going to let that touch your face.

Speaker 2:
[29:20] We're not getting paid, man.

Speaker 1:
[29:22] No. Horrible, especially in Arizona. Horrifying.

Speaker 2:
[29:25] I don't want you on me.

Speaker 1:
[29:27] Oh god damn. So yeah, he liked to pick up games of basketball. His one cousin said that's all he'd talk about. He loved playing basketball. His stepbrother said he was one of the best guys you'd ever meet. He also said he never touched drugs, but he does like to drink. That he likes, as we'll talk about. He enjoyed cars as well as his other passion. He likes cars, particularly loves old Corvettes.

Speaker 2:
[29:54] Really?

Speaker 1:
[29:55] As a guy who was born in 1945, that makes sense. Because when those Corvettes came out, they were hot shit. It was like an experiment, that car.

Speaker 2:
[30:06] No other car looked like that.

Speaker 1:
[30:07] No.

Speaker 2:
[30:08] They still don't.

Speaker 1:
[30:09] You got the 63 with the split window, as cool as fuck, and they're cool cars.

Speaker 2:
[30:15] Through their evolution, no car looked like them at all. Even the Camaro when it had the slanted nose, it still weighed the fuck off.

Speaker 1:
[30:25] Yeah. Didn't look like that. No, totally different.

Speaker 2:
[30:27] And Dodge never had an answer. Ford never had an answer. Foreign cars never had an answer until now. Now Corvettes are competing with every supercar on the planet. That's what they are now.

Speaker 1:
[30:38] It was always like a bullet until it... That's what it looked like. And then in the late 70s, they brought it. They put like a four-cylinder in it, for Christ's sake, and that didn't work out well. And then in the 80s, you got those terrible, those terrible fucking square ones from the 80s that are just awful. That's a guy who like... A guy who doesn't pay his alimony drives one of those. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[31:06] I think that's exactly what Sam Kenison died in, was an 80s Corvette.

Speaker 1:
[31:12] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's... You know you're going to die in it when you get it, is one of those.

Speaker 2:
[31:17] It's a bad car.

Speaker 1:
[31:19] So, Alan loved his family. People said too loved hanging out with his family here. One of his relatives said he'd just pop in and we'd say, we're going to plant a garden today and he'd just jump in and help.

Speaker 2:
[31:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[31:30] Yeah, that's what he's into. He's into whatever. He also likes to drink.

Speaker 2:
[31:36] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] Everybody knows he drinks and he wouldn't tell you otherwise. He's not going to say he's a teetotaler by any stretch. He likes to drink. He is the type of guy that people say that you never really see him drunk, but he always has a beer in his hand.

Speaker 2:
[31:51] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[31:52] I'm going to call it right now, he's a koozie man. He's a koozie man.

Speaker 2:
[31:58] Unless it's a mixed drink, but yeah, I'll bet he does have a koozie.

Speaker 1:
[32:01] Always a beer in his hand.

Speaker 2:
[32:02] It's always beers.

Speaker 1:
[32:03] Always beers. He's a beer guy. I mean, he'll drink once in a while, there's shit if other people are drinking it, but you see him, he's got a beer. That's a koozie guy.

Speaker 2:
[32:10] There's a koozie in his glove box.

Speaker 1:
[32:13] Yeah, because we talked about it. My dad always has a beer in his hand, but he's never drunk.

Speaker 2:
[32:17] No.

Speaker 1:
[32:17] Because that's koozie guys. They have a koozie because it keeps the beer cold. That way they don't, because that's why you end up hounding the beers because it starts to cool down. It starts to warm up a little bit and you're like gross. So you drink it before it gets too cold or too warm. But if you have a koozie, you can nurse a beer for two hours and then get another one. You can always have a beer and never get drunk. It's great. So that's what he does. That's what I understand is that's, he's just putting, he loves a beer.

Speaker 2:
[32:43] He'll drink all day, but he'll never be noticeably hammered.

Speaker 1:
[32:46] No, no, no, no, no. He's not a messer. He's never sloppy or anything like that, from what I understand. One of his cousins said too, at his age, you would have seen, if you would have seen him, you wouldn't have thought he was that old. He was very healthy, skinny. He was very, very active.

Speaker 2:
[33:02] Skinny too.

Speaker 1:
[33:03] Yeah, despite drinking, because he's playing pickup basketball all weekends and his job is landscaping and physical work. So he stays in pretty good shape. So in 2005, this in-shape guy, picture a little bit of gold on him. Sure. Fun guy.

Speaker 2:
[33:18] A little bit of beer on his breath.

Speaker 1:
[33:19] Oh, yeah. Coozie out of his pocket. Ask you if you need one.

Speaker 2:
[33:23] You bet. Corvette key chain hanging out in the pocket.

Speaker 1:
[33:26] Corvette Coozie. You know, that's what's on there.

Speaker 2:
[33:32] Says Got-Vet on it.

Speaker 1:
[33:33] Yeah, there's a Chevy symbol of Got-Vet in the middle. So, but he's an easy Christmas present because you know you can just get him some Corvette shit and he'll...

Speaker 2:
[33:41] Oh my god. Amazon's full of that guy's gift.

Speaker 1:
[33:44] No problem. Easy done. Now, 2005, he goes to a friend's wedding and meets a lady at the wedding. So, good for him. He meets a young lady, a little bit younger than him, about 13 years younger than him, named Tammy Louise Smith Engelman. Engelman is her... She just got divorced a little while ago and Engelman's her divorce name, but Tammy Louise Smith. But he meets her. She's a certified nursing assistant, CNA. She's a single mother with teenagers, two older that are out of the house and like in college or whatever, and then one that is almost college age.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] So she's in her 30s, almost 40s?

Speaker 1:
[34:28] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[34:29] She's in her 40s.

Speaker 1:
[34:30] Fifty-eight, so she would be 47 at this point. Yeah, she's 47.

Speaker 2:
[34:34] Thirteen years?

Speaker 1:
[34:35] Thirteen years. Yeah, he's born 45. She's born in 58.

Speaker 2:
[34:38] Got it. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[34:39] Yeah. Now, she's in her late 40s, but she, everybody says, is a stunner.

Speaker 2:
[34:45] Really?

Speaker 1:
[34:45] She's a real stunner. Her ex-husband, her ex-husband has some descriptions about her, but who's ex? If I asked your ex-wife, describe Jimmie, you wouldn't want, you would not want what she said being public, I'm sure. And if I asked you, well, I have, I didn't need to ask you, actually, you just tell me. But if, the things you say about her, so, you know, exes you can't really trust.

Speaker 2:
[35:12] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:13] You don't need to give Jimmie too much prompting. He'll give you his opinion on it.

Speaker 2:
[35:18] Have you ever been married? Boy, have I.

Speaker 1:
[35:20] Boy, let me tell you something. You turn around, there's a spinning bar stool that's empty, the guy ran away, he's like, oh, he knew what was coming. Oh. Have I ever, let me tell you a story. Hey, where'd you go? Hey. So, this is Don Engelman, her ex-husband, described her as, quote, a very beguiling shrewd person.

Speaker 2:
[35:47] Those are not good words.

Speaker 1:
[35:48] Read between those lines. You barely even have to read between them because the words themselves are pretty close to being between the lines anyway. Shrewd is what you'd call like a con man who screwed you over, a shrewd businessman to me means he fucks people over to get ahead.

Speaker 2:
[36:06] That's a guy that's in the business to a point of stealing yours and not giving a dime of it. That's what that guy is. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:14] He also says, quote, I'm not a psychiatrist, which is a great way to start a sentence by the way.

Speaker 2:
[36:19] But I feel like she needs one.

Speaker 1:
[36:20] I'm not a doctor, but he said, I'm not a psychiatrist, but she falls under the definition or category of a sociopath, trying to figure out how to avoid society's rules and regulations. Which is, I could put that description on a lot of people I know.

Speaker 2:
[36:38] Yeah. Sociopath.

Speaker 1:
[36:39] You're always trying to get around something. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[36:42] I mean, it also means unfeeling. You don't feel things that normal people feel.

Speaker 1:
[36:48] So more psychopath is not feeling.

Speaker 2:
[36:52] Sociopath also. That's the word, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:55] Yeah, empathy. That's more attached to psychopath. Sociopath is more tending. It's not a diagnosis. It's features of something.

Speaker 2:
[37:02] Behavior trait?

Speaker 1:
[37:03] Yeah, traits.

Speaker 2:
[37:04] Trait, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[37:05] It's a trait more than a psychopath would be a diagnosis, sort of. But sociopath isn't really a diagnosis. Neither is really psychopath. That's like you could put a label of that. That person's a psychopath without empathy. A sociopath is a little more nebulous, from what I understand. Again, I'm not a psychiatrist. We're not doctors here, by any stretch of everybody.

Speaker 2:
[37:26] I was not diagnosed as one.

Speaker 1:
[37:28] Don't mistake that we are. I know you were probably watching this thinking, wow, these two gentlemen are doctors. We're not. I'll tell you right now.

Speaker 2:
[37:36] They're discussing the subtle nuance between psycho-slash-socio.

Speaker 1:
[37:39] We dropped out, you know, the last week of residency, so we're not quite doctors, but we're not doctors and we don't know shit.

Speaker 2:
[37:46] Got to be boring and tedious.

Speaker 1:
[37:47] Yeah, but traits of murderers are something that we have studied.

Speaker 2:
[37:52] I'm pretty good at that.

Speaker 1:
[37:54] Yeah, I would say you could put most psychiatrists up against us sitting here. We probably know just as much about a lot of that shit just from doing almost 700 episodes of this. It's a lot. So now Tammy, she's divorced, obviously, but she doesn't look like she's in her late 40s either.

Speaker 2:
[38:12] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[38:13] She always wears makeup and wears her hair very careful, always dressed nicely. And according to other people too, she's been medically enhanced as well. From her back. Tummy tuck, breast implants, and more.

Speaker 2:
[38:28] The whole nine.

Speaker 1:
[38:29] Quote, and more. So I don't know if that's the ass or what.

Speaker 2:
[38:32] But the lips are new. She's really getting after it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[38:36] Don Engelman, her ex-husband, said she was attractive. She could fix herself up to be a knockout. She was what they call a good catch, according to people in the area. A good looker, as they said. That's her ex-husband. A good looker. She's a good looker, everybody.

Speaker 2:
[38:58] He said she's a good catch. Well, here's the thing.

Speaker 1:
[39:01] By looks.

Speaker 2:
[39:02] You'd want to fuck her, right?

Speaker 1:
[39:03] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[39:03] That's what she is.

Speaker 1:
[39:05] That's what he broke it down to.

Speaker 2:
[39:07] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:08] According to her friend, Jennifer Melton, she's also very generous. This is her friend Jennifer said, There was one Christmas where I was a little short on money and my kids were younger and she left $300 for my kids. Tammy always seemed like a really great person and a really great friend. Now, it was Jennifer who introduced Tammy to Alan at the wedding. She felt the two, and this wasn't just a random, they were talking, this guy walked up, hey, you don't know Alan, this is Alan, Alan, Tammy. She purposely went out of her way to make sure to make these two connect.

Speaker 2:
[39:44] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[39:45] And to introduce them. She said that she thought they both had matching personalities.

Speaker 2:
[39:49] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[39:50] Friendly, outgoing, also very kind, and Alan was also attractive and he looked younger than he was too. So she thought this is a perfect match. One of Alan's ex-girlfriends, Maribeth, said he was the type of guy who, when you walked into a room, when he walked into a room, you turned around and noticed. You noticed him.

Speaker 2:
[40:11] Alan was.

Speaker 1:
[40:11] Alan was.

Speaker 2:
[40:12] You rarely hear that about a guy.

Speaker 1:
[40:14] No, exactly. Yeah, because who the hell cares?

Speaker 2:
[40:18] That's what I mean.

Speaker 1:
[40:19] Whole room is full of dicks. We don't care.

Speaker 2:
[40:22] I'll look another one.

Speaker 1:
[40:24] Great. So people said Alan is very confident, and he also has a great ability to make people feel good about themselves and feel good. So these two seem to be a match made in heaven here. Yeah. And they get together, and I mean, they hit it off immediately.

Speaker 2:
[40:41] Good for Al.

Speaker 1:
[40:42] They are into it. Crazy part is they are at the altar getting married in 12 weeks. 12 weeks. That's three months, everybody.

Speaker 2:
[40:54] Way too quick.

Speaker 1:
[40:54] Fast. Imagine that. Three fucking months. I guess if you're older and you think you're, hey, this is great.

Speaker 2:
[41:01] Yeah, but get me in my 60s and have me look at a gal that looks great naked and wants to show it to me a lot. I'm going to take her to the altar before she can change her mind.

Speaker 1:
[41:10] That's what I mean. He's 60 years old this year.

Speaker 2:
[41:12] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[41:13] So I think if you're older, you might just be like, well, if we get along, what are we wasting time for? I'm 60. So that's it. And they barely knew each other, but they're in there. Now, Alan's family, according to his cousin, was worried about this marriage from the beginning because it was such a fast thing. It's like, what's going on? But I mean, he is 60. He's not only 19. He could probably make his own decisions by now, I would say, right?

Speaker 2:
[41:40] He's been in the Navy.

Speaker 1:
[41:41] If not now, when? You know what I'm saying? So anyway, they said they were a little skeptical. His cousin, Zyla, said, I think Alan's heart was 100% in it. Tammy's, I think she was just in it for one thing.

Speaker 2:
[42:00] What is it?

Speaker 1:
[42:01] What do you think?

Speaker 2:
[42:03] There's only two things that women are in the store, right?

Speaker 1:
[42:09] That's the sad part. As guys, that's what we think. Does she want money or does he have a great dick? Which one? That's pretty funny. No, money.

Speaker 2:
[42:20] All right.

Speaker 1:
[42:21] They think it's money because Alan looks to be...

Speaker 2:
[42:26] Looks like a million bucks.

Speaker 1:
[42:27] But he also lives in a motel.

Speaker 2:
[42:30] Great point.

Speaker 1:
[42:31] By the time you marry someone, you know they live in a motel, I would think. You'd been to their room. You'd think this guy isn't wealthy.

Speaker 2:
[42:38] Popped their house.

Speaker 1:
[42:40] I get that he has a nice watch and shit, but he probably bought that in better times. You know what I mean? Obviously, this isn't the best time right now. But yeah, his cousin, Xylus, said if you looked at Alan, he looked rich. The way he carried himself, the clothes he wore, the jewelry he wore, he looked rich. But that's it. According to a friend of Alan's, Tammy had likely been attracted to Alan's money and what she thought that he probably had based on what he looked. Yeah. According to his cousin, David, he said after he got out of the Navy, he worked on an oil field, I think out in Oklahoma. He said, but he was just juggling a bunch of jobs, like he wasn't rich at all. Yeah. So he said that she was barking up the wrong tree basically. I mean, he lived rent free in a hotel.

Speaker 2:
[43:25] It's awesome.

Speaker 1:
[43:26] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[43:27] I have a sick watch if I had that.

Speaker 1:
[43:29] Oh yeah. I don't have to pay any rent. Holy shit. I'll tell you, my corvette would be in top tier shape. He said everyone was really happy for them because they really seemed in love and very, very happy. So we were all like, this is great. It's a friend of his. And he didn't seem like he was being dragged into it. He's the one that proposed within a month of them meeting and they get married. And the cousin said she wanted a honeymoon and she wanted to go to Hawaii.

Speaker 2:
[43:57] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[43:58] That's what she wanted. And so they went. Now they went on Tammy's credit card. That's how they did this.

Speaker 2:
[44:05] Tammy, you didn't know?

Speaker 1:
[44:07] This is interesting. Yeah. So they have a great time. When the honeymoon ended, apparently she expected, according to her people that know her, she expected Alan to reimburse her for what she'd spent on the trip.

Speaker 2:
[44:19] Yeah, but what's yours is mine. What's mine is yours.

Speaker 1:
[44:22] Yeah. So she's like at least, you know, half of it, whatever. She also demanded that he move out of this hotel where he lived for free and buy a house with her. Let's get a big home and a nice neighborhood. This is ridiculous. We need to, she still has a daughter living at home, you know, so she wanted that. The cousin said he knew it was over his means and that it was over her means. They both knew it, but he did it for her.

Speaker 2:
[44:45] He bought the house.

Speaker 1:
[44:46] So he bought a house. He's gonna figure out how to pay for it, essentially. Yeah, which is tough. The one thing that she couldn't really get Alan to do because, you know, she, I mean, think about it. She can pretty much direct him where she wants. And if you love somebody, you'll listen to them as part of it too.

Speaker 2:
[45:04] Yeah, there's compromise. There's a talk and figuring out common ground.

Speaker 1:
[45:09] So, but she could not get him to stop drinking. Yeah. He, she didn't want him to drink and he was like, oh no, I drink. That's what I...

Speaker 2:
[45:18] I've done this a long time.

Speaker 1:
[45:21] This is part of my personality, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[45:23] This is not changing.

Speaker 1:
[45:24] No. You see this koozie, the corvette on it? These are the two things I like. I'm a koozie man.

Speaker 2:
[45:31] I can't not drink. I'm a koozie man.

Speaker 1:
[45:34] What am I going to do with all these koozies?

Speaker 2:
[45:36] What am I going to put in these?

Speaker 1:
[45:38] I mean, what am I going to make them into flower pots? I can do nothing with these things. It's a bunch of, what is that, like neoprite or whatever the fuck it's called?

Speaker 2:
[45:47] Neoprene of some sort?

Speaker 1:
[45:48] Neoprene.

Speaker 2:
[45:49] I don't think it's biodegradable. I think it sticks around forever.

Speaker 1:
[45:52] I think you've got to dispose of them in the same place you put batteries, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[45:56] Otherwise, a turtle will get it stuck in his face.

Speaker 1:
[45:59] Yeah. There's koozie recycling centers you can go to, and special like the battery ones. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[46:04] They chip them up and pay freeways with them. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[46:07] They use it as mulch sometimes. I feel like it's koozie. So he said, this is a friend of his said, this man who drank very often, every time I saw him, he had a beer in his hand.

Speaker 2:
[46:18] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[46:18] That's fair. Now, Tammy's got her youngest daughter still living at home when they get married. This daughter will be a constant source of problems for Alan and Tammy here. A lot of friction. Apparently, she's very disrespectful toward him, which she's like 16 and now I'm stepdad? Yeah. Sorry, dude. I don't know you. You met my mom three fucking months ago. It's not like they've been dating for a few years and you're used to him. He's just some guy you just met and now this is your new dad, or this is your stepdad. I'm 16.

Speaker 2:
[46:57] I've seen her tits more than you have. Shut up.

Speaker 1:
[46:59] Yeah. Fuck that. Yeah, that's ridiculous. So I don't think I would have reacted well to that as a 16-year-old.

Speaker 2:
[47:08] I don't know that I'd be like...

Speaker 1:
[47:09] Some strange guy coming in.

Speaker 2:
[47:10] Yeah, we're not going to be pals.

Speaker 1:
[47:12] Yeah, you're not going to tell me what to do, certainly.

Speaker 2:
[47:14] No.

Speaker 1:
[47:15] You've earned none of that.

Speaker 2:
[47:16] Was there a koozie in your pocket? Get the fuck out of here.

Speaker 1:
[47:18] No, I don't need a koozie. I'm fine right now. I'm 16. I can't even drink beer. So she disrespected him a lot and Tammy spoiled her kids from what people said to and said that she let her daughter treat Alan like complete shit. She didn't say, hey, you know, yeah, he doesn't tell you what to do and everything, but at least respect him for the guy who owns the fucking house with me and helps pay the mortgage. And she didn't do that. So Tammy's daughter was an issue and Alan's drinking, and Tammy is pissed off at that. And Tammy's got a problem of her own and it's spending. Oh, she doesn't drink. She likes to spend money. She's a shopper.

Speaker 2:
[48:02] Shit.

Speaker 1:
[48:02] And she likes to do that. She likes to get clothes all the time. She'll go out on huge shopping sprees that she can't afford. Absolutely. Financially, they're in deep shit. They have creditors calling all the time.

Speaker 2:
[48:16] Oh, boy.

Speaker 1:
[48:16] It's not good.

Speaker 2:
[48:17] It's so new.

Speaker 1:
[48:19] This is immediately. I mean, we're talking car payments overdue, credit cards, this, that, everything overdue. The house is getting close to pushing into the foreclosure area.

Speaker 2:
[48:31] Already.

Speaker 1:
[48:32] It's not good. Also, the youngest daughter is going to go off to college and the tuition was coming due, and they didn't have that either, and it's a lot. Now, Alan recently had started a new job with a glass installation company. This is at the request of Tammy also. Tammy wanting him to stop bouncing around from job to job to get a solid career that she can count on, that he'll be there and she'll know his salary, and they'll know what he's going to make every year and all that kind of shit. So he does that. He tries to placate her and do that and everything like that. Now, Tammy, she likes to shop. Like I said, she likes clothes. She likes plastic surgery. She likes expensive shit that makes her look better. That's what she likes. So she started hitting the mall all the time, just shopping it up, and she kept a secret bank account, but that doesn't really matter because there's not... Basically she's got bills that she can't pay that are normal bills, and then she's trying to also run up credit cards on clothes and shit like that. They said she had clothes she never even took out of the closet.

Speaker 2:
[49:41] She has money to make a secret bank account when we don't have enough money to pay for the other accounts.

Speaker 1:
[49:47] Yeah, yeah. This is like an addiction. Like if he was putting money aside for like pills or something, you know what I mean? Or whatever the fuck, it would be a similar thing, and this is her thing here. And her ex-husband said she would get it under control for a little bit, and then she'd turn right back around and just start over again, like people, like addicts do. That's what happens. So he said that was pretty tough. So they're a year into their marriage. This is early 2007, and they're bickering all the time, Tammy and Alan, just more fighting than anything else, is what a friend said. They're just fighting constantly. Now, Tammy's family owns a pretty substantially sized farm, pretty big farm, and she told Alan she's going to one day inherit this whole thing. Oh. And so Alan was like, oh, that's also here. There's money down the line, some relief eventually. But I mean, who knows how long her parents will live. That could be, forget it. So during all this, there's a lot of turmoil. They've only been married a year and change. There's a bunch of turmoil, financial turmoil, just a lot of things, fighting with that.

Speaker 2:
[50:57] It's ugly.

Speaker 1:
[50:57] With the teenage daughter bickering, things aren't great.

Speaker 2:
[51:00] It's a 90 day relationship turned into a marriage. That's not good.

Speaker 1:
[51:04] That's crazy. Yeah, that is crazy. It's funny because if you watch 90 day fiance, you go, this is too soon. It's just too soon. And those people knew each other sometimes for years online and over video chats and all that shit for years. And you still go, oh, this is way too soon.

Speaker 2:
[51:20] Too soon.

Speaker 1:
[51:20] This is incredibly too soon. They never even saw each other before they met. That's crazy. So she ends up, here's the problem. She has a patient of hers as a CNA, who's an older guy. And this patient's son is an insurance agent named Gary Ruddle, R-U-D-D-E-L-L. And this Gary Ruddle comes to see his father or mother, whoever's in there, that she's working on. And Tammy takes a liken to Gary.

Speaker 2:
[51:55] Oh boy.

Speaker 1:
[51:56] So much so that they're having a pretty torrid affair pretty quickly.

Speaker 2:
[52:01] Really?

Speaker 1:
[52:01] Oh yeah. People, the neighbors, started noticing a man coming and going from the house during the day while Alan's at work.

Speaker 2:
[52:10] Jesus.

Speaker 1:
[52:11] So one of the neighbors told Alan about it. It was like, hey, you know, which, by the way, that is how a murder-suicide with people that I know happened up the street for me.

Speaker 2:
[52:22] Right.

Speaker 1:
[52:23] It was exactly that, was somebody.

Speaker 2:
[52:25] Don't tell them.

Speaker 1:
[52:26] Hey, what's the words we always say to people? The three, the big three words, mind, your business, mind, your fucking business, all of you. I know you want to help, and that's great, and that's a nice instinct, but you don't know what this could unravel. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[52:44] They'll figure it out, and when they do, that's on them.

Speaker 1:
[52:47] It's none of your goddamn business, either way. So a neighbor told Alan.

Speaker 2:
[52:53] Well, he comes to you and says, Did you ever see her? Oh, I thought you knew.

Speaker 1:
[52:57] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[52:58] What are you talking about? Bro, it was so fucking obvious.

Speaker 1:
[53:01] I just figured it was, you know, it's your guys' business. I don't know what you guys are into, you know?

Speaker 2:
[53:06] Open relationships happen nowadays. It's fine.

Speaker 1:
[53:09] Yeah, yeah, but this happened a while ago, around Christmas, actually. People I met at a Christmas party there, exact same thing. Two days before. Two days before, except the opposite of this, because they had been married for 40-something years, almost 50 years, rather than barely knew each other. And same thing.

Speaker 2:
[53:27] He caught it.

Speaker 1:
[53:29] He came home and it was a murder-suicide, and it was ugly.

Speaker 2:
[53:32] Sold all his tools or gave them away?

Speaker 1:
[53:34] Gave them away, yeah, yeah. It's a crazy thing. I was telling people at the shop, you know, take my tools. You just have all this, yeah. It's like, okay, you know that something's gonna happen if somebody's giving all the tools of their trade away.

Speaker 2:
[53:47] Right, nobody gives away all of their tools. Even the crescent? Even the crescent. All right, what's the matter with you?

Speaker 1:
[53:53] While they're sobbing.

Speaker 2:
[53:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[53:57] Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2:
[53:58] The star tools, the hex heads, you're giving me those too? Come on, man. All of them?

Speaker 1:
[54:03] No, no, no, I'm not buying it. I don't know, yeah. Hey, let's sit down.

Speaker 2:
[54:07] Let's have a beer. I got a koozie.

Speaker 1:
[54:09] Hey.

Speaker 2:
[54:11] This one's for you.

Speaker 1:
[54:11] This one's for you. Hands it out. Hey, hold on a minute. There you go. Hey, what do you want? What do you want? Corvette or Chevy logo? Which one? I'll let you pick.

Speaker 2:
[54:22] Corvette or just all Chevy products and compass?

Speaker 1:
[54:25] Yeah, yeah, just a straight Chevy one.

Speaker 2:
[54:28] That's a sketch.

Speaker 1:
[54:30] It's, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[54:31] That's a mental health sketch.

Speaker 1:
[54:35] Yes, it is. Just always carry two koozies. And scene. What do you think, guys? Good?

Speaker 2:
[54:43] And the wife and kids survive, all because he had two koozies.

Speaker 1:
[54:46] He had multiple koozies. See what happens when you bring koozies around? This is why my father has lived a long and happy life, I think, because he's always got multiple koozies on him. So Alan comes home and catches Tammy in the middle of it. In? Oh, no.

Speaker 2:
[55:02] Catches somebody else in the middle of it.

Speaker 1:
[55:05] Well, she's in there, too.

Speaker 2:
[55:07] Certainly, but he's in between it.

Speaker 1:
[55:10] So his name is Gary Ruddell, of course, as we met, or Gary Ruddell there, the insurance salesman, one of Tammy's sons, our patient's sons. And there they go. Alan finds out about it, and he decides that the only thing he really does to... he doesn't leave or anything, but he closes their joint bank account and opens a bank account solely in his name. Like, okay, well, you're not shopping with my money anymore, essentially. He's pissed off, basically. And apparently he makes more money than her. CNAs do not make a lot of money at all.

Speaker 2:
[55:46] No, that's the bottom rung of nursing.

Speaker 1:
[55:49] Very little money.

Speaker 2:
[55:50] They're literally ass wipers. That's what they do.

Speaker 1:
[55:52] A lot of it. I mean, they do a lot, believe me.

Speaker 2:
[55:56] But it's a lot of bottom rung work. They don't do IVs. They're just doing the awful stuff.

Speaker 1:
[56:02] And that's not to disrespect it, because if you've ever had a parent or a grandparent or anybody relative in any kind of long-term care or anything like that, these are the people that keep them alive and keep them running and everything else.

Speaker 2:
[56:16] But the point is that that job is where you start for your RN thing, or on your way back down.

Speaker 1:
[56:23] Why would you go back down?

Speaker 2:
[56:25] It's like if you're done nursing and you just want to...

Speaker 1:
[56:28] You get a sitcom, and then from there you do this, and then you're back to stand up on the stage.

Speaker 2:
[56:32] You've lost your audience.

Speaker 1:
[56:35] That's not how real jobs work.

Speaker 2:
[56:37] It's when an RN gets caught in a sex scandal.

Speaker 1:
[56:39] Yeah, then they knock you down to it.

Speaker 2:
[56:41] When they're caught DMing people on Snapchat.

Speaker 1:
[56:44] And then after that, it's a CNA. What's the middle rung? Because there's a CNA and an RN. Yeah, yeah, there you go. They become an LPN, they go back down again. That's a very sad downfall of nurses. There that is. You go back down. You said it like it was a comedy club. This is where you either come up or go back down, guys.

Speaker 2:
[57:09] That's so fun.

Speaker 1:
[57:10] The chuckle factory in Toledo, yeah, that's an up or down. Not when you're up here.

Speaker 2:
[57:15] Yeah, you get on the way up or on the way down, you'll see. Yeah, you'll see Polly Shore there this weekend. You might see somebody that's going to be on Saturday Night Live in six years.

Speaker 1:
[57:21] It's possible. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Or just got off of Saturday Night Live, as you've seen from people. So anyway, that's what's going on here. Alan and they're, you know, they're fighting a lot, basically. He's apparently, he moves out of the house. But this is not to end it. He wants a reconciliation.

Speaker 2:
[57:49] He wants to fix this.

Speaker 1:
[57:50] Yeah, he's still coming over to mow the lawn and do all that shit. He still helps out around the house. And he tells his friends that they're getting back together. They're just going through a rough patch. Poor Al. That's humiliating. That's where Gary was in the middle of to a rough patch. He was in there too. That's in the rough over there. So Tammy was telling friends that she wanted Gary and that she was done with Alan and that she's not getting back together with him at all.

Speaker 2:
[58:15] She's just taking the lawn mowing.

Speaker 1:
[58:18] Now there's an incident here where Tammy allegedly gets a call from her youngest daughter, the one who still lives at home, claiming Alan was drinking and hit her.

Speaker 2:
[58:29] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[58:29] Which kind of goes against what everybody says of his character, but when people are drinking, you never know. Anything's possible.

Speaker 2:
[58:35] She's also a disrespectful little shit. Maybe he got drunk and she mouthed off and he...

Speaker 1:
[58:39] If you've got a mouthy teenager and a person who you know drinks all the time, you could see something happen in there. It's possible. Two and two equals four there, but...

Speaker 2:
[58:49] And he may not have even hit her. He just may have walked through a door and went, nah, just made contact with her face.

Speaker 1:
[58:56] The officers who responded to the call found no marks because she reported to the police that he was drunk and violent. The cops came. They found no marks at all on Tammy's daughter. And they filed no charges or did nothing because they said, and this is in the 2000s, so they said, this is bullshit and they left. They didn't think that anything happened. But Alan spent the night at a hotel at the request of the authorities, and then he returned home. This is when he moves out for good for a while. He returned home to find that the locks had been changed.

Speaker 2:
[59:26] Oh, what?

Speaker 1:
[59:28] Yeah, so now they are... It's not quite their second wedding anniversary, and they already have changed locks, which is a bad sign. Gangs being played. Yeah. But Alan wanted to make this work. His friend said, I think Alan truly loved Tammy, and when you truly love someone, it's hard to cut that off. Now, Tammy has some problems at her job. She was working at Miller's Merry Manor, which is a nursing home in Columbus, and the charge nurse, Charles Rose, his talk show was on hiatus, so he was doing this.

Speaker 2:
[60:06] Did he get fired unceremoniously, Charlie Rose?

Speaker 1:
[60:08] Yes, he had some accusations, let's just say.

Speaker 2:
[60:12] Maybe this is what he's doing now.

Speaker 1:
[60:14] This is what he was doing. In 2007, he was still in a black background talking to celebrities. So he's on the way back down, that's how it works. First, you have your own talk show, and then you have to be a charge nurse, and then if you fuck up more, you're a CNA. Then you're out of the business, that's how it works.

Speaker 2:
[60:33] It's over.

Speaker 1:
[60:35] If you want to have your own talk show for decades at a time, you got to start as a CNA, that's how it goes. That's the way up the rungs. That's it.

Speaker 2:
[60:42] It's not our rules. We just live by them.

Speaker 1:
[60:44] So Charles Rose said that he left a nearly full bottle of Roxanol, R-O-X-A-N-O-L, on a hospice patient's bedside table. Now, Roxanol is insanely strong liquid morphine.

Speaker 2:
[61:02] And you say, is it syrup? It is syrup, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[61:03] It's wild. It comes in an eyedropper, an eyedropper bottle with a lavender-colored liquid. And it's apparently, it's insane. It's used for dying patients in extreme pain in their last days of lives. Yeah, it's literally you're dying of cancer, some horrible disease, and it's to just make you comfortable for your last couple days as you die. That's what it's for. And from what I understand, they say a lot of times, sometimes people who are in really bad states, they give them a little bit extra of this to kind of push it along a little bit. They kind of push the envelope of what they can give them to put them out of the misery type of deal. So that's what it's used for. It's extremely potent. A therapeutic dose is measured in the low hundreds of nanograms per milliliter.

Speaker 2:
[61:54] Tiny bits.

Speaker 1:
[61:56] Very, very, very tiny doses of it.

Speaker 2:
[61:58] This shit is strong.

Speaker 1:
[62:00] Now, this Charlie Rose went to get the bottle after lunch. She realized he left it there and was like, shit, and it was gone.

Speaker 2:
[62:08] No!

Speaker 1:
[62:09] Now, Tammy was the only staff member present in the wing at that time, but they didn't have any evidence she took it or anything. And when asked, Tammy said she never even saw the bottle. Has no idea what anybody's talking about. Didn't see it. I don't know. I was over in the other part of the wing. I have no clue. She suggested maybe a visitor took it. That's possible. Somebody came in to visit anybody. She said, this patient's daughter comes to visit all the time. Maybe it's the daughter that did it. But Charlie Rose...

Speaker 2:
[62:37] And at that point, it's much less the who took it and more the who the fuck left it out to be taken.

Speaker 1:
[62:45] Well, that's a problem. Yeah, who left it out. It all looks bad. This is all terrible and irresponsible. Now Charlie Rose knew that the daughter couldn't have done it because the daughter's a school teacher who never visits during the day. It could have been a half day. These kids have so many half days, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[63:02] And days off.

Speaker 1:
[63:03] And days off. It's crazy how many half days and days off. They just don't... What's the point? God damn it.

Speaker 2:
[63:11] The half day for my daughter is literally an hour less. It's like, why don't we just stay? What are we doing?

Speaker 1:
[63:17] What are we doing? Yeah. Why bother?

Speaker 2:
[63:19] This is so dumb.

Speaker 1:
[63:20] Unless they're getting out at like 11 a.m. What are we talking about?

Speaker 2:
[63:23] It fucks my whole day to get there earlier. It ruins everything.

Speaker 1:
[63:28] It's hard. So now the Director of Nursing at Miller's Mary Manor later told investigators, the last day she worked for us, we were really concerned because we had a bottle of morphine sulfate turn up missing.

Speaker 2:
[63:41] And now morphine's gone.

Speaker 1:
[63:43] Yeah. Now, there's another issue here in the summer of 2007. So this is months later. That was March of 2007. In the summer of 2007, Tammy had left that job. She apparently was at Alan's cousin's house, Zyla Thompson, who we got a lot of quotes from. Apparently, Zyla would always leave a large bottle of flexeril on the table just inside her front door. Oh. In case she was out of mini-snickers during Halloween, it's, you know, you gotta give the kid something. They'll throw eggs at your house. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[64:19] Is it flexeril for joint pain?

Speaker 1:
[64:23] Yeah, it's a muscle relaxer. Yeah, and a prescription one. It's not a, you know, it's, you can't bite over the counter. It's nothing like that. It's strong shit. So she leaves that for some reason, always just leaves a big bottle of it there just in case. In case anybody needs a flexeril or two. She had a block party during this time that both Alan and Tammy attended. This is whether they talk for a minute, then they're mad at each other, they talk and they're mad. Now, after the party, the flexeril is way less full than it was before the party, which shows it's a good party.

Speaker 2:
[65:03] Also shows that shit works.

Speaker 1:
[65:05] Yeah. She says that she estimated, this is how big this bottle of flexeril is, by the way. She estimated somewhere between 100 to 200 pills were gone.

Speaker 2:
[65:16] What, she get this from Costco?

Speaker 1:
[65:18] I mean, it's got to be the size of a fucking protein powder thing. Yeah. It's got to be ridiculous.

Speaker 2:
[65:25] Does it have a scoop inside too? I think it does.

Speaker 1:
[65:27] That's so much. What, I got about 30, 40 of them in there, and you scoop it into your morning shake? I don't know what's going on. But that's a lot of pills right there. I don't know what the average prescription is, but it's got to be less than 200 pills, right?

Speaker 2:
[65:41] I can't imagine you got-

Speaker 1:
[65:42] Why did she have that many?

Speaker 2:
[65:44] 200 pills? This can't be a prescription one.

Speaker 1:
[65:47] How un-relaxed are her muscles?

Speaker 2:
[65:50] Yeah, how fucking tight are you, lady?

Speaker 1:
[65:52] What the fuck? So, early August 2007, okay, so that goes by. So now Tammy's been around drugs disappearing in two separate places. Okay. Now when Tammy, Tammy invites Alan over and says, listen, you need to come over and sign some papers. It's related to mortgage insurance. So you need to sign it. It's important. She told him that, listen, once the daughter moves out and goes to college, maybe we can try and reconcile this and see if it works together, if we're here by ourselves and all that kind of thing. But you need to sign this mortgage insurance paper. That's going to help out a lot, too.

Speaker 2:
[66:33] And also, after the mortgage crisis, they were making us have fucking insurance.

Speaker 1:
[66:38] Exactly. 2007. It makes sense this whole time. And so he said he would sign the mortgage insurance policy. No problem. Basically, one of them said, quote, he couldn't move home. This is somebody they knew. He couldn't move home until he could prove. Oh, this is Tammy. I'm sorry. He couldn't move home until he could prove to me that, number one, he could hold down a job for a long period of time and get good evaluations. She's looking at his fucking...

Speaker 2:
[67:07] What?

Speaker 1:
[67:08] She's looking at his quarterly fucking...

Speaker 2:
[67:11] Yeah, we're looking at my report card.

Speaker 1:
[67:12] Check-ins over here.

Speaker 2:
[67:12] What are we doing?

Speaker 1:
[67:14] And that he had to not necessarily quit drinking totally, but not drink on a daily basis.

Speaker 2:
[67:20] Okay, there needs to be some improvement.

Speaker 1:
[67:22] Some improvement shown. And somebody said later, she said that she was encouraging Alan to go home and said he would later, and he was drinking and drinking quite heavily. This was after the insurance thing. So he signs the paper and then he's leaving now. Also there, while he signs the paper, Gary Ruddle.

Speaker 2:
[67:43] Yeah, cause he wrote the insurance policy.

Speaker 1:
[67:44] He wrote the policy. You're gonna sign, I'm not signing shit. Well, I call this guy balls deep cause I found him balls deep in my life. I'm not signing shit where you get a cut. You get commission off of this? you.

Speaker 2:
[67:57] I'm not signing anything with the doughnut filler here.

Speaker 1:
[68:00] No, not at all. Yeah. So anyway, that's what's going on here. And he's telling friends and coworkers that once the daughter goes off to college, that we're going to get back together and everything's going to be fine. And the daughter's going to college like in September. So this is early August. So it's happening. He, but he also said that he was getting kind of suspicious of Tammy and her and her motivations. He told apparently friends and neighbors in August, basically, and in July of 2007, that if you ever find me dead, just make sure it's thoroughly investigated. That's all. So I'm in pretty good shape besides the drinking. So, you know, that's what he said. Man, make sure they thoroughly investigate it if I get found dead in a weird way.

Speaker 2:
[68:46] That seems to be a very common thing to say to people nowadays.

Speaker 1:
[68:49] People say that all the time.

Speaker 2:
[68:50] I've heard it so many times in these stories. Date line, 48 hours.

Speaker 1:
[68:55] I think our last story, somebody said that. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[68:59] If I'm dead, they did it or have a look at them or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[69:02] Yeah, they even, yeah, who to look at. They even give you a goddamn, I'll give you a lead on my future murder investigation.

Speaker 2:
[69:10] It'll tell you to look at. Even Chris Watts' wife said that. That Shannon lady said it.

Speaker 1:
[69:14] It happens all the time. It really does. Now, August 23, 2007. Alan comes over to Tammy's home here on Lake Crest Drive, their family house. Okay. Now, Tammy asked him to come over to work on an air conditioning unit that wasn't working right. In the Indiana heat in August. It's sticky in Indiana, real sticky. So Tammy made dinner for him and them. That's nice of her. She describes the dinner as chicken salad, fresh fruits and vegetables, and her signature dessert.

Speaker 2:
[69:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[69:52] This is her dessert that she loves. It's her jam. And it is chocolate dirt pudding. Why does all these names, why do they have to have terrible names? All these desserts. It's a dump cake. It's a shit pile. It's a fucking dump cakes.

Speaker 2:
[70:10] The words.

Speaker 1:
[70:11] It's all a dump, dirt.

Speaker 2:
[70:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[70:14] I don't want any of that. I want none of that shit. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[70:17] And that dirt pie or dirt pudding, whatever the fuck. It's not your recipe. Stop it. Stop acting like you're so special. You crumbled up some fucking cookie on some Jell-O yogurt. Jell-O pudding. Stop acting like you did this.

Speaker 1:
[70:33] Oreo cookie crumbles, obviously. Vanilla pudding and cream cheese. Whoa. She really... Wow.

Speaker 2:
[70:44] Boy, did you get crazy on your three ingredients.

Speaker 1:
[70:47] She came to the fork in the road and went straight, man. Just blew my mind right there. Did you see that? Holy cow.

Speaker 2:
[70:53] With an arm full of three things from the grocery store.

Speaker 1:
[70:56] And cream cheese? Oh, now see, that done blowed my mind right there. And cream cheese.

Speaker 2:
[71:04] Jell-O pudding, Philadelphia cream cheese, Oreo cookies. They're telling me you combine those and it's delicious.

Speaker 1:
[71:11] Wait a second, cream cheese? You put cream cheese in there and it was good.

Speaker 2:
[71:16] What you're saying is.

Speaker 1:
[71:19] Unbelievable. So.

Speaker 2:
[71:21] Boy, mind-blowing.

Speaker 1:
[71:23] Mind-blowing. Way to go, Betty Crocker. Yeah. So she makes his plate. He takes a couple of bites of the chicken salad, one slice of tomato and then goes to the pudding and eats some of the pudding. Also, she says she made him two Long Island Iced Teas. I don't want you to drink anymore. Let me make you the drink with the most booze in it possible.

Speaker 2:
[71:48] All the alcohol.

Speaker 1:
[71:50] What is that? You're sending mixed signals if you're making someone who you want to quit drinking a Long Island Iced Tea.

Speaker 2:
[71:56] I don't think there's an ingredient in that that doesn't have booze in it. No, it's all booze.

Speaker 1:
[72:01] It's still, yeah. This is, well, this is the thing that you're gonna get the sweet from. Well, it's booze still, and then the acidity from this is also booze.

Speaker 2:
[72:10] The splash of the brown is soda, and that's what makes it look like tea, but everything else is just booze.

Speaker 1:
[72:17] Yeah. So he gets starts to get hot and goes outside. He goes outside to cool down. He sits down in the lawn chair on the back porch outside to cool down a little bit. Stuffy in the house, he came to fix an air conditioner.

Speaker 2:
[72:30] And he's got a nice tea.

Speaker 1:
[72:32] And he falls asleep in the chair out back on the lawn chair, which plenty of 60-year-old guys have a couple of drinks after dinner and fall asleep on a nice comfy lawn chair. That'll happen.

Speaker 2:
[72:43] Fall asleep where I sit, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[72:44] Yep. So 8:04 a.m. the next morning.

Speaker 2:
[72:48] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[72:49] All right. August 24th. Tammy calls 911.

Speaker 2:
[72:52] Uh-oh.

Speaker 1:
[72:53] Okay. Now 911 call. She says, emergency 911, which is, they got 911. And she says, emergency 911. Domino's Pizza. Domino's Pizza? Yeah. So we said, she said, yes, my name is Tammy Duvall. I live at Lake Crest Drive and I think my husband is dead. That's what she says. She tells the operator, he's a heavy drinker. She says that he came over the night before to fix an air conditioner. This is on the phone to 911. She's giving the whole story.

Speaker 2:
[73:30] This is not necessary.

Speaker 1:
[73:32] Nope. She said he became overheated. He went outside to cool down. And she went and ended up falling asleep. And she found him in the chair the next morning. That's what, this is what happened.

Speaker 2:
[73:40] What are you doing?

Speaker 1:
[73:42] So 820, the first responders arrive and it's a quiet neighborhood, everything like that. They get there, they find him slumped down in a lawn chair on the back porch. No signs of a struggle, no signs of violence, no torn shirt and there's some blood on him or anything like that. The back porch is basically a concrete slab, just a little concrete slab, had a couple of lawn chairs and that's where he was sitting. Eyes closed, not moving. There he is, 61 years old and dead as shit. So they said no blood, no signs of a struggle, no torn clothing, no defensive wounds, nothing to indicate violence of any kind. They said, you could tell his color was off, but they said the position he was in looked peaceful, looked like a guy who, looked like he fell asleep and didn't wake up.

Speaker 2:
[74:30] Comfortable man.

Speaker 1:
[74:31] Comfortable.

Speaker 2:
[74:31] It's a damn nice chair.

Speaker 1:
[74:32] Yeah, the responding officer said, this is the healthiest dead person I think I've ever seen. There's no sign of trauma to the body. So there we go. Police photographs show him in the chair, his shirt is off, but we assume that because he's hot, so you take his shirt off first. It's August. They said he just looks like he's fine. Now, the initial ruling is probably accidental alcohol poisoning mixed with heat exhaustion. They said you mix those two together and get a guy who's 60 years old, drinks a little too much, especially a bunch of different liquors in one drink, and then the heat exhaustion, and that's what happens.

Speaker 2:
[75:16] You're liable to never wake up again.

Speaker 1:
[75:17] That's it. Poor guy's dead. That's all. So they think, oh, that's tragic. That sucks.

Speaker 2:
[75:23] Terrible even.

Speaker 1:
[75:25] It happens. So this is the same day, August 24th, same goddamn day that they found him in the chair. Tammy is already on the phone trying to arrange cremation that day.

Speaker 2:
[75:38] We're going to burn up now.

Speaker 1:
[75:40] Yes. She said she wanted it done today.

Speaker 2:
[75:44] Oh, can we do that today?

Speaker 1:
[75:45] Yeah. Because obviously cremation isn't something you make an appointment for six months in the future.

Speaker 2:
[75:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[75:51] They work on it generally, you know.

Speaker 2:
[75:53] Fairly fast, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[75:54] However it comes schedule. Yeah, you know. So usually it's, you know, tomorrow or two days from now or the funeral is this day, have it done before then. Instead, she said, I need it done today, now, right now. And they said that was really weird, especially because Alan owned a burial plot that he wanted to be buried in.

Speaker 2:
[76:15] Oh yeah, then what the fuck?

Speaker 1:
[76:17] Which is strange. He had told members of his family, he bought a burial plot and he wants a military funeral because he was in the Navy.

Speaker 2:
[76:24] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[76:25] So he wants the whole thing with the flag and all that stuff.

Speaker 2:
[76:27] Yeah, there's no reason to spend any money on anything. The government will do this.

Speaker 1:
[76:31] Yeah, trust me. Yeah, my cheap ass grandmother definitely took advantage of those things for her dead husbands. So she said she wanted it done that day and the detective in this situation, who had just looked over the scene because they have to have a dead, they have to have a detective sign off on a dead person that it's not a homicide and they can bag them up basically. So this detective said she wanted to have it done that day and I had to try to stop it somehow. Wow. Now that's tough because she is the woman's husband or the man's husband. They're not legally separated or anything like that. She has all the rights of a spouse. So he didn't know. This is Detective Mark Crutchin and he's a veteran guy. And he said something just didn't smell right. Why does he need to be cremated right the second when he owns a burial plot?

Speaker 2:
[77:22] Trying to get an Amazon Prime cremation deal done?

Speaker 1:
[77:25] Yeah, I need it done today. No, same day, same day.

Speaker 2:
[77:28] Right now.

Speaker 1:
[77:29] Right now. He had Domino's cremation, they call. 30 minutes or less. Needed by 4 p.m. The 911 call itself was just off to him. Just thought it was off. He said it wasn't anything that you could name. Anything where you said, oh, she said that, that's wrong. But he said it was just a weird vibe and it was something about it just seemed staged.

Speaker 2:
[77:53] Just kind of the whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[77:54] This performed or something. The tone she had was of a woman who knew approximately what was about to happen versus a woman who had genuinely stumbled upon her husband's dead body. It didn't seem like to him like she was just like, oh my God, where's my husband call? I don't know, blah, blah, blah. It seemed like someone who was very controlled and whatever. But you'd also think that someone from a hospice nurse or a nursing home nurse, death is not a, oh my God, panic thing. She walks in and finds somebody dead. I get this is your husband, but your initial reaction wouldn't be that initial normal freak out people have when they see a dead body.

Speaker 2:
[78:33] And she's very well aware of the process of how this happens because she has absolutely changed a bedpan, come back 30 minutes later, and that person is no longer there.

Speaker 1:
[78:43] For sure. Yep. So they said that within the first hours, he places a hold on the cremation. So he gets that, gets an order to stop that. And he orders an autopsy to be done. And he'd like a background investigation on Tammy, just based on her suspicious actions here. So then he starts getting phone calls.

Speaker 2:
[79:08] From who?

Speaker 1:
[79:09] Well, from a lot of people. Number one, from the, from Alan's cousins, from Tammy's ex-husband, from Tammy's own daughter, from Tammy's son-in-law.

Speaker 2:
[79:20] The daughter?

Speaker 1:
[79:21] Not the one from the house, the one who's already moved out of the house. All of them said, look at Tammy.

Speaker 2:
[79:28] Have a look-see at mom.

Speaker 1:
[79:29] Look, just keep an eye on her.

Speaker 2:
[79:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[79:31] So that's when he puts the hold on the cremation and orders the autopsy. And he said he listened to the 911 call over and over and over again. And he said, it just didn't seem right. He said that this is court documents later on said several of Tammy and Alan's family members contacted the Columbus Police Department to convey their suspicions. And that's when this all happened. Now, he's got to wait for autopsy results. Because that takes a while and get toxicologies and all that kind of thing. So while they're waiting, Tammy keeps asking when the department planned to close this investigation because it's fucking up her efforts to get the life insurance policy, to cash in. It's like, I can't cash in till you close this thing. So is this almost over or what? What are we doing here? Then the autopsy comes back. Now, number one, blood alcohol level is insane.

Speaker 2:
[80:25] Really?

Speaker 1:
[80:26] Insane.

Speaker 2:
[80:28] 0.4?

Speaker 1:
[80:29] 0.436.

Speaker 2:
[80:31] That is a hammered individual.

Speaker 1:
[80:35] That is so...

Speaker 2:
[80:36] That's so deadly.

Speaker 1:
[80:38] That is, I believe, higher than John Bonham had when he died.

Speaker 2:
[80:43] Really?

Speaker 1:
[80:43] Who was the Led Zeppelin's drummer, who was famous for being the craziest alcoholic on earth and he died with, I think, less than that in his system. If you don't know who Led Zeppelin is, let's see how to explain that.

Speaker 2:
[80:54] Best cover band of all time.

Speaker 1:
[80:56] Yeah. So it's insane. It's an insane amount of booze in your system.

Speaker 2:
[81:02] Yeah. My mom ruined-

Speaker 1:
[81:04] 0.08 is legal.

Speaker 2:
[81:06] Yeah. My mom ruined an Easter by going to a wedding and being taken to the hospital with a 0.4 and nearly died.

Speaker 1:
[81:16] That is, you're lucky to not die.

Speaker 2:
[81:18] She was in bed for like four days afterwards, drinking nothing but Gatorade and then throwing it up.

Speaker 1:
[81:23] I bet. And that was consistent with Tammy's account that he's a heavy drinker. He's always drinking and she made him Long Island iced teas and all that kind of shit. And who knows what he drank before he came over. So that's consistent. But then they get to the rest of the autopsy. They found that he has 6,590 nanograms per milliliter of morphine in his system.

Speaker 2:
[81:47] That doesn't happen naturally.

Speaker 1:
[81:48] The therapeutic maximum is about 60 nanograms per milliliter.

Speaker 2:
[81:53] And he has what?

Speaker 1:
[81:55] 6,590.

Speaker 2:
[81:57] Literally a thousand times more.

Speaker 1:
[81:59] A hundred. A hundred times the therapeutic dose. Yeah. A hundred times the therapeutic dose, which is insane.

Speaker 2:
[82:07] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[82:08] Also, cyclobenzaprine, which is flexural.

Speaker 2:
[82:11] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[82:12] Flexural, remember that? He has 3,229 nanograms per milliliter, which is about eight times the therapeutic dose.

Speaker 2:
[82:21] Oh, boy.

Speaker 1:
[82:22] Now, some people, if you take a lot of flexural, maybe you could probably get up to a tolerance of that and be fine. But a hundred times the therapeutic dose of morphine will kill you.

Speaker 2:
[82:31] That's so much.

Speaker 1:
[82:32] Period.

Speaker 2:
[82:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[82:33] So the pathologist confirms that Alan died of a morphine overdose.

Speaker 2:
[82:38] Not even the booze.

Speaker 1:
[82:39] Not even the booze. They said the alcohol and muscle relaxants were contributing factors. Just basically made a huge... He said this would have rendered him unconscious almost immediately. And it would basically kind of cut off his respiratory system from the inside.

Speaker 2:
[82:56] Slows it down. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[82:57] And screw them all up.

Speaker 2:
[82:59] That is not too Long Islands either.

Speaker 1:
[83:03] No. That is way more than that. They also said that his stepbrother, Henry, said his... You know, my brother enjoys a drink or two. Don't get me wrong. But he said, I've never heard him do any kind of drugs. He's just not a drug guy. He's a booze guy. A lot of people are booze or drugs. And especially if you're like old military guys, those guys are booze guys a lot of times. They either are booze guys or not booze guys. So they said, Alan barely had any contents in his stomach, but they did find a substance consistent with the consistency of pudding in there.

Speaker 2:
[83:37] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[83:38] Okay. So this is when the detective says, let's go ahead and start this homicide investigation. Now we got a thing here. Yeah. So he immediately does this and he looks into their background, and he said that creditors were continually calling the marital residents to discuss the delinquencies of various consumer accounts and pass due vehicle payments. The marital residence was a subject of foreclosure proceedings, and college tuition for the youngest daughter had become due and weren't paid. So they looked and found that Alan had recently started working with a glass installation company and that Tammy's income as a CNA wasn't nearly enough to cover anything they do basically. But Tammy was blaming Alan for money troubles even though he made a lot more money. She'd often complained to those around her, including friends, coworkers, and her daughter, that Alan was unreliable and failed to provide adequate contributions to the family's finances. She told everyone that.

Speaker 2:
[84:44] Not a man at all.

Speaker 1:
[84:46] So they go around asking Alan's friends and family about, what does he do on the side? Does he take maybe a muscle relaxer here and there to chill out? One here, a guy named Tim Harris who worked with Alan said, you couldn't even get him to take an aspirin. He didn't believe in legal or illegal drugs. He didn't like any of drugs. He just like booze. Yeah. He said, I'll make it feel better. Don't worry. I have a couple of sips. He said that he saw Alan at a local club the night before he died. He said that Alan was planning to go to his wife's house that next night to try to reconcile their marriage. Alan thought this was a big step this next day because she invited him over for dinner or whatever. So this guy said he seemed to be happy to be going back home and to work at it. Tammy's son-in-law, Josh Turner, said he once heard Tammy say something that made him a bit uncomfortable. Well, they were watching an episode of CSI. And in the episode, a character tried to poison someone. And Tammy said that the character was, quote, doing it wrong.

Speaker 2:
[86:02] That isn't it at all.

Speaker 1:
[86:04] Which you automatically start sliding over your chair a little bit from someone. Doing it wrong. What are you talking about?

Speaker 2:
[86:10] Doing it all wrong.

Speaker 1:
[86:12] Oh my god. He said he recalled the comment when he found out that Alan had died, and he said it gave him a trembling feeling.

Speaker 2:
[86:21] The hee-gee-bee-jee's?

Speaker 1:
[86:23] The hee-gee-bee-jee's, as an Oregon guy would say there. So another one of Tammy's daughters, Caitlin, that is that guy's wife, that son-in-law's wife, said that she sent an email to Columbus Police Department concerning Alan's death without knowing her husband had already called the police. They independently, without even discussing it with each other, both felt that they needed to contact the police.

Speaker 2:
[86:50] And I could see calling on your mother-in-law, but calling on your own mother, that tells you how bad this is.

Speaker 1:
[87:00] Yeah, and the fact that they both felt that strongly without even like, should we call? No, they didn't even do that.

Speaker 2:
[87:07] They just both were like, He called and was like, I'll tell her when I get home, I'll deal with the backlash. And she said, I'll tell him when I get home, I'll deal with the backlash.

Speaker 1:
[87:15] Already emailed, no problem. So they said, later on, they'll be asked, so you both independently contacted the police with suspicions that your mother killed her husband, and they both said, yes, that's right, you got it. So the police have to talk to Tammy, obviously. So Tammy tells the cops that he'd been by her home the evening before. She had an air conditioner that needed repair, and he's a real heavy sleeper, and since she'd moved out, he'd taken to drinking even more heavily than before, because she's not breaking his balls about it because he's on his own. And so he was drinking heavily, and he just passed out on the back porch.

Speaker 2:
[87:56] She said, she was like, that's where he sleeps.

Speaker 1:
[87:58] He did, yeah, he fell asleep on a chair, and you know how it is when you got a drunk, you just let him sleep where they're sleeping. You're gonna wake them up. So it's rude. He'd, she said also that he'd been feeling depressed that she'd moved out of their house or they don't live together anymore and that they're no longer together. So that's how it goes. She also said, you know, my husband drinks a lot. And honestly, I'm kind of suspicious that he's been doing drugs recently as well. She said, in my, he said, well, what kind of drugs? And she said, I think possibly cocaine.

Speaker 2:
[88:33] In my estimation, he's been real high.

Speaker 1:
[88:37] That's right. So, you know, I think he's been even higher than I thought. So she said, they said, well, what happened when he was over there? And she said, quote, I made, I had made chicken salad and cut up fresh fruits and vegetables and had made this cool pudding dessert. Cool, meaning to cool it down.

Speaker 2:
[88:54] Yeah, meaning it had cool whip on top.

Speaker 1:
[88:56] Cool whip, cream cheese whipped up. So that's what she said. Now they went, all right. So they get her initial statement and they're like, okay, well, we'll see if we can poke any holes in that. Then they find out from acquaintances that Tammy's been having an affair with an insurance agent. An insurance agent that drafted up Alan's policy.

Speaker 2:
[89:17] Oh boy.

Speaker 1:
[89:18] The cops like, whoa, I don't know that she's having an affair. I don't know about an insurance policy. I got a lot to find out. So they said Tammy had gotten involved with someone else. And according to witnesses here, Tammy had been saying she intended to file for divorce.

Speaker 2:
[89:35] Oh boy.

Speaker 1:
[89:36] But that she'd managed to persuade Alan to list her as a beneficiary on his life insurance policy by convincing him that they would eventually reconcile. This is what she told her friends. I scammed him into putting me on his life insurance. And the policy had been filled out by hand and signed in front of a restaurant in Columbus a month before Alan died. So one of the worst things to come from this was Tammy's own daughter with the email. That's bad because it's like you said, it's one thing to get something from the son-in-law. That's like hearing from the ex-husband. My mother-in-law is a pain in the ass. Okay, well, whatever.

Speaker 2:
[90:15] I'm sure she is.

Speaker 1:
[90:17] I'm sure you're not the first person to say that. Great. But a woman's daughter turning her in or pushing the police that way, that is serious. So they said, that's a big deal. And Tammy had once described to her, she said in abstract terms, what quote, the perfect murder would look like.

Speaker 2:
[90:37] Oh boy.

Speaker 1:
[90:38] Yeah, she's been thinking about this.

Speaker 2:
[90:39] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[90:39] And that was quote, poison someone and request immediate cremation. That's how you do it. Which is exactly what she did. So they were like, uh-oh, that's not good. And also she said that she was a big fan of TV crime shows and had claimed she knew how to kill someone without getting caught. Wow. Okay. Now other witnesses come forward as if that wasn't bad enough. This is really bad though. This is where her story gets real shitty. Now this is before the 911 call. That came in at 8:04 a.m. on the 24th. There's a store clerk named Kim Foster who knows Tammy very well, spoke to Tammy when she opened her store sometime before 7 a.m. She left the house, saw him sitting there. Went to the store.

Speaker 2:
[91:30] Came back, he's still sitting there.

Speaker 1:
[91:32] Yeah. So maybe he's dead.

Speaker 2:
[91:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[91:34] But Tammy appeared distressed. She asked what was wrong, and Tammy responded that she found Alan dead that morning. This is an hour and a half before the call to 911. So that's crazy. That looks bad. Then a neighbor, Jennifer Melton, gets a knock on her door around 7 a.m. It's super fucking loud, super early, so she's got to get her shit together. By the time she gets to the front door, whoever knocked is gone. So she looks out her back window and sees Tammy in her yard tying up her dogs. This is a little after 7 a.m. Tying up her dogs. Who are now sniffing his poor man's corpse.

Speaker 2:
[92:18] Yeah. In an hour from now, there's going to be men here.

Speaker 1:
[92:22] This is wild. Then at about 730 a.m., Gary Ruddle, her boyfriend there, Gary receives a phone call from Tammy. Tammy had told him that Alan was outside and unconscious. That's what he said. So this is all these different stories. So someone said that she knew he was dead well before 7 a.m. Right. Then she's stopping at neighbors houses, tying up dogs, calling her boyfriend, doing all this different shit. And then, which is very odd. So Tammy, by the way, she's going to get talked to a whole bunch of times by the cops. And she's in a position where she can't just say, fuck you, I need a lawyer. She has to act super cooperative.

Speaker 2:
[93:08] Yeah, because she didn't do it. She had nothing to do with it. It was all an accident.

Speaker 1:
[93:12] Yeah. And she needs the insurance money to be released too. So over the course of this, she has slightly different versions every time too, which that happens. There's minor inconsistencies if people fuck up a detail or something. So they said to her, it's also the fact that you did not walk in the door at 8.04 and call 911. You were doing something in that house for 14 minutes before you called 911. That's when she came home. And we have an eyewitness that puts you there an hour before you called 911, tying up the dogs in the backyard. So they're like, what up with that?

Speaker 2:
[93:46] Yeah. What the hell, lady?

Speaker 1:
[93:49] Now, her excuse for this is, well, yeah, I might have made a few other calls before I called 911. And they go, why? And she goes, well, you know, my memory is not so good, so I don't really remember that morning so well. But she said, it's got to be shock. It's got to be the shock of finding my husband's body. I just went into such shock from it, I couldn't call 911 for an hour. But I could go to the store and call my boyfriend. That I could figure out. But the shock makes you do weird things. You don't want to call a number.

Speaker 2:
[94:22] When you're in shock, I'll just sit there on the phone going, yes 911, yes 911, yes 911.

Speaker 1:
[94:29] 911?

Speaker 2:
[94:30] Just backing forth. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[94:31] 911, is it you?

Speaker 2:
[94:32] I had to wait for an hour.

Speaker 1:
[94:35] So yeah, I didn't want to be frustrated.

Speaker 2:
[94:37] Gotta let that wear off.

Speaker 1:
[94:39] She also tells this cop that she one time found a bottle of 90 pills hidden with her husband's belongings and confronted him about it. And she said her husband told him that his cousin gave him the pills. So that is, I'm assumed to say that it's the flexorill probably, because she's the, that's what they're saying, gave him the pills. Also during the same interview, she said she called 911 immediately after arriving home in the morning. And that's where they were like, well, not really.

Speaker 2:
[95:10] You didn't, though.

Speaker 1:
[95:12] Yeah. And she said, well, it was shortly after that. And then they challenged her story and show phone records that she called a friend at 750 from her home phone and didn't call 911 until 14 minutes later and said, what were you doing during that 14 minutes? And said, look at all these other phone calls you made. You were home for 14 minutes from the first time you called Rhonda to when you called 911. And you also called your boyfriend, Gary, in that 14 minutes. And she just said, I don't know, I just don't know.

Speaker 2:
[95:44] What about an hour and a half ago, you already knew that he was dead.

Speaker 1:
[95:48] Yeah, no, no. And then she said, well, I probably panicked and just tried to calm myself down. And that's, I called people that would help calm me down. Call them as 911 is there. You can call them all you want. As the medics work on him, that's fine. So they push her a little more and she said, well, okay. And she started crying. And she said, you're gonna think I'm a horrible person. You're gonna think I'm a horrible person. And they go, try us. Yeah, give us a run. See if we can, see if you can make it so we think you're worse than we think you are now. Let's see if we can get there. And she said, okay, he showed up intoxicated. He was shit faced, man. Just showed up wrecked. He said that he just wasn't willing to live if he couldn't move back home and have free rain and do the things he wanted to do. I need free rain. He said that Alan then went to his truck and brought in a container of liquid with an eye dropper and was drinking whiskey. So he's got liquid with an eye dropper. Now she's a nurse, she would know what it was. And said that he put quote, a couple droppers full of the liquid in his mouth.

Speaker 2:
[97:09] Oh, he's just dropping droppers like a bird feeder.

Speaker 1:
[97:11] Boop, boop, boop. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[97:12] Just like he's hammering whiskey.

Speaker 1:
[97:15] Yeah. Like it's some sort of like a vitamin C supplement or something he's taking.

Speaker 2:
[97:20] A wild syrup that he's making.

Speaker 1:
[97:22] So she suggested that they said, well, how would he get some weird liquid? I don't understand how he would do this. And they said, well, a guy I used to work with named Jamie at a nursing home, he might have been the source of these drugs. That's the guy. She said after she found Alan dead, she said she threw everything away. This is what I didn't want to tell you, but I didn't want to make him look bad. So I just threw everything away.

Speaker 2:
[97:50] Oh, she threw away the eyedropper.

Speaker 1:
[97:52] Got rid of all of his drugs and got rid of everything. And she said the pill bottle and bottle of liquid were both empty, by the way. So she was just getting rid of the bottles. She told the cop that she just felt awful about it and she couldn't help it. She also said she cleaned up the foam that had come out of his mouth, too. She gave him a little deal, cleaned him up, washed down the scene. You know, just didn't want to make him look bad.

Speaker 2:
[98:17] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[98:19] That's not a good story, by the way. It's a terrible story.

Speaker 2:
[98:23] I cleaned up the body is not good.

Speaker 1:
[98:26] Yeah. Well, it's especially bad because during a conversation with Alan's ex-wife, Tammy initially said Alan hadn't been drinking at all, but later mentioned during the course of the evening that he consumed a beer and a shot. And then when she spoke to one of the children, Tammy said Alan had been pounding tequila the entire night. So went from not drinking at all, had one shot and one beer, a shitload of tequila, a bunch of whiskey is another story, or two Long Island ice teas is another story.

Speaker 2:
[98:58] It's one of those.

Speaker 1:
[98:59] What did he drink? 0.436, all of that.

Speaker 2:
[99:03] It has to be.

Speaker 1:
[99:05] So that's when during this investigation, shit takes a bit of a different turn. Because they're like, okay, we have a lot of kind of circumstantial shit and she looks bad and all this and her story is fucking terrible. But we don't really have anything to really go on. Then an old boyfriend comes back to haunt her.

Speaker 2:
[99:27] Nice.

Speaker 1:
[99:28] Yes. This is Stephen Brown, Tammy's former boyfriend and a statement from him. They discover a statement that he gave to a Farm Bureau Insurance Investigator in connection with a completely separate matter that had nothing to do with Alan.

Speaker 2:
[99:45] The FBI, the Farm Bureau Insurance?

Speaker 1:
[99:47] Yes, Farm Bureau Insurance Investi- I'm with the FBI, ma'am. I'm investigating something. No, the Farm Bureau Insurance. So, Tammy had accused the Stephen Brown of stealing her property, which he denied, and I think they found later that he didn't at all. But over the course of this interview, Stephen Brown dropped a detail on them saying, which didn't matter at the time because it wasn't germane to the stealing at the time, so no one ever followed up on it. It just sat there in a report for a later homicide investigator to find. He said that Thanksgiving 2004, this is right before she met and married Alan. Yeah, three years ago. Yeah. Tammy arrived at his house with food. She had a pudding that she insisted he eat. Yeah. It's my famous dirt pudding. She said, my daughter made it especially for you. Don't be disrespectful of my daughter who went out of her way to make you a nice pudding. He said he took a few bites, but he said it tasted, quote, like aspirin dissolving. And then he felt, and then he felt, quote, very out of it for several hours. This is after just a couple of bites. Okay. Then, then Tammy, after she had given him the pudding, pulled out a life insurance policy application.

Speaker 2:
[101:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[101:16] She said she needed his information, social security, his signature with her as his beneficiary. Sign it now. But you know, before you die from what I gave you.

Speaker 2:
[101:25] Yeah. And for, for my dump pipe kills you.

Speaker 1:
[101:29] He said no, refused, wouldn't sign it. So she got mad and left. And he said that she left, when she left, she took the bowl and plate with her that he used.

Speaker 2:
[101:40] She took the whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[101:41] She took his bowl and plate with her. So it couldn't be found. Wow. Um, that's wild. Okay. So both of these meals included the same one thing.

Speaker 2:
[101:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[101:55] That dirt pudding, her specialty.

Speaker 2:
[101:56] That shit ass pie, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[101:58] That pudding is her specialty. Then they find out about missing drugs from her job. Oh, morphine missing from her job. What did he die of? Morphine overdose. No, they're just finding out about that now.

Speaker 2:
[102:11] Oh, they, oh shit.

Speaker 1:
[102:12] They didn't press charges or anything because they had no proof that Tammy stole it. So they just, she just left there and they just all called it.

Speaker 2:
[102:18] And they look like assholes for leaving it out.

Speaker 1:
[102:20] Exactly. Exactly. So they just said, oh, we'll let that go. And now it comes back. And they said, as a certified nurse's aid, Tammy was not permitted authorized access to patient drugs. So it had to have been a theft. They said that Rose will testify later in a hearing that Tammy was working with him, Charlie Rose, on March 2nd, 2007, in a particular ward that housed a hospice patient who had been prescribed Roxanol. Help this person die, basically. Another nurse's aid, Rita Bell, had been on duty with Charles and Tammy. Charles went for lunch with Rita and left Tammy alone on the floor to serve lunches to the bedridden patients. Gee, thanks, guys.

Speaker 2:
[103:03] Yeah, good looking out.

Speaker 1:
[103:05] Gee, maybe bring me back something at least. You guys are having a, wow, that sucks. No, Belle had seen a bottle of vernoxanol on the patient's table, but did not pick it up because she wasn't in charge of the medicine cart that day. And that would have been, she's not supposed to touch that. So when Charles asked Tammy if she knew what happened to it, Tammy flatly denied taking it and blamed the missing drugs on the relative that we talked about. According to Charlie Rose, he quote, kind of knew better because the daughter was a teacher that never visited during the daytime, had no proof, so he had to let it drop. Then they find out about all of the things about the financial strains, all the relatives are coming in talking about, he'd recently signed a mortgage insurance on the property and all that kind of thing. Now we find out, then the cops are like, so he signed mortgage insurance, let's find that policy. Then they find out what he really signed, which is a $100,000 life insurance policy, naming Tammy as the sole beneficiary as well. Obviously, Gary Ruddle was writing the policy, and she told her friend, Ron DeBrown, that if Alan talks to you, make sure that he doesn't find out he signed a life insurance policy. Make sure he thinks it's mortgage insurance.

Speaker 2:
[104:32] Make sure of that. Yep.

Speaker 1:
[104:35] She showed Ronda after that, she had said, make sure he thinks it's life insurance, or make sure he thinks it's mortgage insurance. Then she whipped out some small, round, yellow pills, which by the way, that's how flexor will come, small yellow pills, and asked her, quote, if he took the whole bottle, would he die? Okay. Now, Ronda said she didn't believe anyone was actually gonna do that. She thought Tammy was just being funny. You know what I mean? Tammy's being Tammy. She has a personality.

Speaker 2:
[105:08] Legitimate question, better asking you than Google.

Speaker 1:
[105:11] Exactly. What do you think here? She said she should have called someone right then, Ronda said, but she didn't because she didn't think anything of it. Okay. Then they talked to Dennis Thomas, a motorist's life insurance investigator, and he received Tammy's claim on the $100,000 policy and signed investigator Dennis Thomas to look into the circumstances of the death. He interviewed Tammy multiple times as well. She's being interviewed by two sets of investigators here.

Speaker 2:
[105:40] All over the place, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[105:42] But he just takes his findings and shares them with the police. So everything he gets, they get too. Yeah. Yeah. So she is under a lot of pressure. Every time she was interviewed, she had to try to maintain a story. To keep your story straight, whether I tell this one as opposed to that one and all that, it doesn't work very well. Tammy starts to kind of break down a little bit.

Speaker 2:
[106:03] Well, they tend to ask you specifics. And if that specific changes, because you forgot, that's on you.

Speaker 1:
[106:11] Yeah. They tend to ask you specifics. And if you don't answer, they tend to go back to that one question.

Speaker 2:
[106:16] Wait, what'd you say?

Speaker 1:
[106:17] You can't, yeah. Can't bullshit your way out of it. So then Tammy said, or they talked to Gary Ruddle, and he said, I only sold her the insurance policy. I had no idea beyond, you know, that she had any intentions to do anything with it like that. He said, also, I haven't been in contact with her since that time period. He said, oh, never mind. When she started being an investigator. Yeah. And I'm sure the investigators probably told him, dude, stay away from this lady. She's dangerous. Then Tammy's dad, Lowell Smith, said he recalled Tammy telling him Alan had foam coming from his mouth when she found him dead and that she had wiped it away. Okay. So here's their theory. Sometime between 1 a.m. and 6 a.m. while he was sleeping, he's asleep in his chair, unconscious, having too much morphine, flexural and alcohol. They said his breathing slows. And according to the theory, while he was incapacitated, they believe Tammy may have administered additional morphine directly. She might have dropped more in. That would explain why his blood concentration was so insanely high. They don't think he would have been able to get all that in him basically before being out. So, they said it has to be they think that Tammy must have given him more later. Like she probably came outside, looked at him, and said, fuck, he's still breathing.

Speaker 2:
[107:49] The chest is moving.

Speaker 1:
[107:50] Drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. Okay, let's see how that does type of thing. So, the insurance situation had really been the initial red flags here. Alan's family suspicions, even Tammy's family suspicions, her rushing to get cremated, wanting to skip the autopsy, everything. One of the cops said, I was suspicious of it at the start. He was in too good of health and all of that shit. And in her own story, it kept shifting. Just to go over her lies, when she called 911, she said, I found him and I immediately called. We find out she called several other people first. First, not only that, she was in a store in town before 7am, already telling people Alan was dead. Boyfriend Gary gets a call at 7.30am saying Alan was unconscious. The 911 call came in at 8.04 and when confronted with this, she said she was in shock. To the 911 operator, Tammy said that he's a heavy drinker, implying alcohol was to blame. To Alan's former girlfriend, he said he hadn't been drinking at all. Then he said he had one beer and one shot. Then to her son saying he'd been drinking tequila all night, and they'd been drinking to kill it together all night. Then later on, at least two Long Island iced teas, and then at one point, whiskey and morphine. All of those. Initially, she had no idea where the drugs came from. Then she said Alan must have had a secret drug life she didn't know about.

Speaker 2:
[109:22] Had to.

Speaker 1:
[109:23] Then, at another time, she described seeing Alan produce an eyedropper bottle with a lavender liquid, consistent with Roxanol. Then Alan had gotten flexeril from his cousin, Zyla. Then she said she cleaned up the pill bottles to protect his reputation. And then she comes up with an even crazier one. He committed suicide.

Speaker 2:
[109:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[109:50] That's what it was.

Speaker 2:
[109:50] Yeah, I could see it.

Speaker 1:
[109:51] It's suicide. It's suicide.

Speaker 2:
[109:54] I don't know. It's not her job to come up with the reason or the how he died. It's just that's their job. Let them do it.

Speaker 1:
[110:05] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[110:06] But it's either, it's clearly either murder or suicide because there's no other answer.

Speaker 1:
[110:12] Yeah. The dogs didn't do it.

Speaker 2:
[110:15] Right.

Speaker 1:
[110:16] So her thing is he must have committed suicide. Then on the insurance policy, to the investigators, Allen had initiated the policy himself. To her friend Rhonda said, don't tell him it's life insurance. To Allen, she told him it's mortgage insurance, so she lied to everybody there. It's a mess. She believes though her final story, this is my final answer and I'm sticking to it, is that he accidentally drank himself to death. That's what she said was her final story. Then she changed that and according to her, he drank the medication and swallowed the pills because he wasn't willing to live if he couldn't move back home and have free reign to do the things he wanted to do, like we said before. And she said he hides stuff and he had to have hidden shit from her and he has a secret double life with all sorts of stuff and all sorts of drugs. And they said that the cousin admitted she had left medications, including flexerol, out in Plainview at her house and that she recently had a block party attended by Alan and Tammy. However, those who knew Alan, including Zyla, the cousins, insisted Alan was opposed to ingesting drugs.

Speaker 2:
[111:25] OK.

Speaker 1:
[111:26] And additionally, Tammy said on the night before Alan's death, she'd seen him with an eye dropper filled with the lavender color liquid and all that here. The problem is here, they said that this Roxanol is a liquid form of morphine prescribed to hospice patients. It's not a street drug.

Speaker 2:
[111:45] Right.

Speaker 1:
[111:46] This isn't something readily available.

Speaker 2:
[111:47] You should get that and then be addicted to that.

Speaker 1:
[111:49] Yeah. And police officers later on will testify that neither Roxanol nor Flexeril is a drug typically abused and available for street purchase in 2007. Anyway, they said evidence showed that Tammy had been in the proximity of both drugs shortly before Alan's death. Now Flexeril, I've heard people take it. That's muscle relaxers. That's Roxanol shit. That's crazy.

Speaker 2:
[112:11] I've never heard of it before. I imagine it's amazing and right on par with Dilaudid.

Speaker 1:
[112:17] Something like that, yeah. So she said, I want you to know I am not this horrible person. I did not murder my husband, she tells the police. But fair enough. But on August 6th, 2010, she's arrested for murdering her husband. So that's not good. Murder, six counts of insurance fraud. Six. Three counts of obstruction of justice, and that is for her saying she threw out the pills and wiped the foam from his mouth. That's obstruction of justice.

Speaker 2:
[112:48] Oh shit.

Speaker 1:
[112:49] Yes, telling her dad she wiped the foam from the mouth. So in her initial appearance in court, this is the balls this lady has, okay. She asked if she could be released from her jail, so she could return to the job she loves at a Louisville Children's Hospital.

Speaker 2:
[113:10] Yes, you may. Huh?

Speaker 1:
[113:12] Yes, murder suspect. Let's go hang out around children more. That's what we want for our murder suspects.

Speaker 2:
[113:19] You want to go voluntarily? We get it.

Speaker 1:
[113:21] No, no, her job. She loves it.

Speaker 2:
[113:23] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[113:23] It's very important to her.

Speaker 2:
[113:24] Very important to the community.

Speaker 1:
[113:26] Yeah, that you go dick around around kids. The judge said no, first of all, and then said that you're going to need an attorney to file a motion for a special hearing before I could even consider Bond. And she said she couldn't afford an attorney and could she have a public defender? They said, have you looked for an attorney? And she said her boyfriend has made calls on her behalf, which Gary said he hasn't talked to her since the incident. So who is this boyfriend that she found now? We don't know.

Speaker 2:
[114:00] I'm terrified to know.

Speaker 1:
[114:02] She said that they're asking for $30,000 to $50,000 to retain their services.

Speaker 2:
[114:09] That's a high-powered one.

Speaker 1:
[114:10] That's a decent lawyer. And she said, I don't have that kind of money. There was a lawsuit with the insurance company that had gone on before this, where she and the company reached a $40,000 settlement. So they ended up giving her $40,000.

Speaker 2:
[114:25] Instead of the $300,000?

Speaker 1:
[114:27] $100,000, $100,000. 40%? They gave her $40,000, but they said that $40,000 is going to go against your lawyer fee. So there's a cap on the public defender of 25 grand. So at least 25 grand of that is coming to your lawyer, basically, or at most 25 grand of it. So April 2011 is the trial. Now, one of the main things they're fighting about in pretrial, this is one of those cases where there's a lot up in the air because they don't have proof she had morphine. So this is a lot of circumstantial evidence. And the way the trial goes down is everything. If you've seen anything on the Corey Rich and stuff, that was their whole approach is, we don't have any proof of this, of her doing this. But there was two adults in the house. He ended up with too much of this in his system. And we don't think he did it to himself, so by process of elimination, had to have been you.

Speaker 2:
[115:24] And we have text messages from one person in the house trying to procure the shit that he died from.

Speaker 1:
[115:31] Exactly, asking for the Michael Jackson stuff. So anyway, this shit, it's a very similar thing, though. Very circumstantial, and it's just based on process of elimination. Couldn't have been anybody else, had to have been her. So the main thing they're gonna fight about is Stephen Brown.

Speaker 2:
[115:49] Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[115:50] The ex-boyfriend who said she tried to poison him on Thanksgiving, or near Thanksgiving, with the aspirin taste and hours of feeling out of it, and almost being forced to sign insurance papers, and how she left with the bowl and plate.

Speaker 2:
[116:03] In the weakest and worst pie on the planet.

Speaker 1:
[116:07] Yeah, terrible, awful pie.

Speaker 2:
[116:09] It's not cooking, stop it.

Speaker 1:
[116:12] So one of the big deals here is whether Stephen's testimony about this could be submitted into trial. Because this is a big, I mean, this is a knockout blow. It involved Indiana Evidence Rule 404B, which you've heard a lot of if you ever watch a trial, which generally prohibits using evidence of prior bad acts to show a defendant has a propensity for crime. Okay, it's the prior bad acts thing. Now before trial, Tammy's attorneys successfully argue that Stephen Brown's testimony should be included unless the defense opens the door. And that's always the exception to this. The prosecution can't bring shit up, but if you open the door on something to try to say, she's a good person, you try to open some character door, you're getting blasted with this. And that's how it works here. And the prosecution agreed, and that was fine. So he's not allowed to testify. All right. Prosecutions opening. They have a timeline, and they'll do it for about an hour, the whole timeline, and detail Alan and Tammy's relationship, financial records, employment history. He portrayed Tammy as financially irresponsible and dishonest. They allege that Tammy had, quote, hid $25,000 from her creditors in Alan Duvall's personal checking account so that she could file for bankruptcy and have a $55,000 debt erased.

Speaker 2:
[117:37] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[117:37] So that's all, you know, shady shit. That's one of the accounts that she's up for. They also pointed out that 17 months after the bankruptcy erased her debt, she had accumulated $170,000 in new debt by purchasing houses, vehicles, clothes, shit like that.

Speaker 2:
[117:56] $170,000?

Speaker 1:
[117:58] Yeah. The Duvall's are frequently laid on their loan payments, their house is being foreclosed on, and the house was being foreclosed on before Tammy paid up five months of delinquent mortgage payments after she got the insurance settlement. They said by the time Tammy purchased insurance on Alan Duvall's life, she was facing a major financial crisis, and then they played clips of interviews of police and insurance investigators conducted with Tammy, and showed her in her own glory here. They played audio of clips, interviews by that. They said that he said proving the insurance fraud and obstruction of justice charges were the easy part because Tammy's caught on tape lying to an insurance investigator, and confessing to cleaning Alan Duvall's body and the area around him when she found him dead. They said Tammy concealed and misrepresented her insurance claim history and her level of participation in insuring Alan's life. They said, quote, she tangled herself up in her web of deceit. I love when prosecutors try to turn phrases and it's just kind of falls flat like that.

Speaker 2:
[119:12] So real black widow, James.

Speaker 1:
[119:13] She tangled herself up in her web of deceit. Oh boy. You know how that web goes, gets tangled. They said telling lies that she ever evolved as the investigators got more evidence, her lies would just kind of go around with that evidence was. They said Tammy concealed and misrepresented all this shit and tangled herself and she's doing everything. They also said that Tammy did not show, this is in court this day, they show a picture of Alan slumped over dead in the chair and his cousin started crying but Tammy showed no reaction in court. Then later in the argument, she began crying when the prosecutor played an audio clip of her explaining that she saw Alan take the drugs that killed him. That's the part I got to cry at. That's my emotional part. Her attorney gave her tissues. Oh, you poor thing. The defense opening was this. It's a suicide, period.

Speaker 2:
[120:11] It's gotta be.

Speaker 1:
[120:12] Suicide, it's a suicide, period. They argued that Alan had taken the drugs himself. He was devastated about the state of his marriage and he told Tammy that he just couldn't live if he couldn't move back home and that the morphine and flexerol were his and that Tammy was an innocent woman. Just innocent.

Speaker 2:
[120:32] And he's going to feel so bad if his suicide locks her up forever.

Speaker 1:
[120:36] This is, he would feel, do you want to hurt this man even more?

Speaker 2:
[120:40] The man's dead for Christ's sake.

Speaker 1:
[120:41] Let him rest. He's been through enough. The man hasn't been able to digest a decent meal in six weeks.

Speaker 2:
[120:47] Six weeks.

Speaker 1:
[120:49] So they said an eyedropper full of morphine is the thing he had when he died. And the delay was just Tammy finding him dead and quote, freaking out. That's all it is. It didn't matter. They said the state has no proof that Tammy stole a bottle of morphine from Miller's Merry Manor, which is such a weird place for something that has hospice care, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[121:14] A Merry Manor? I know.

Speaker 1:
[121:16] Miller's Merry Manor sounds like something at Six Flags.

Speaker 2:
[121:19] It sounds like the whole ass Six Flags.

Speaker 1:
[121:22] Yeah. This is Miller's Merry Manor. That does not sound like back there is the hospice care. Yeah. Right past the Snack Shack is the hospice care.

Speaker 2:
[121:31] Six Flags over Miller's Merry Manor.

Speaker 1:
[121:35] Yeah. It's so weird. Now, her lawyer acknowledged that, yeah, Tammy might be financially stupid. Sure.

Speaker 2:
[121:43] Yeah, she is.

Speaker 1:
[121:44] That's a thing. Yeah. Alan's motives in marrying Tammy was also questionable. He said that they then are now accusing him of having violent behavior toward her. He also questioned police interview techniques in which a detective misled and exaggerated the case against Tammy to get favorable testimony from other witnesses. That does suck, but it's also legal. That's the problem. They said the cases against Tammy come down to one word. Sure. That's what the defense attorney said. Sure.

Speaker 2:
[122:20] Like in?

Speaker 1:
[122:22] Yeah. When asked about during her interview whether she would take a polygraph, Tammy said, sure, without hesitation. They said she had nothing to hide, but the authorities never followed through on their offer of the exam. I think because it was an academic at that point. They had her lying six different ways. So what does it matter?

Speaker 2:
[122:46] Maybe they asked and didn't have the machine. It's 50,000 people here. Maybe they're waiting for it to come up.

Speaker 1:
[122:52] They could have gone to Louisville or Indianapolis or something. If you can go to Indianapolis for a drink, you can certainly go for a polygraph, I would hope. Her lawyer said that Tammy also did not hesitate when asked questions. When asked questions, he had evidence to prove she was lying. As an example, he said, Tammy told a police detective that the bank had never foreclosed on her home, but he had court documents to show that in his hand. They said that Tammy is a good liar until all her stories are compared. This is the prosecution and rebuttal here. That's that. Now, in opening statements still here, it's all suicide and that's it. Now, the problem is, when they do this, the defense attorney argues that Alan had committed suicide describing a specific scenario in which Alan brought his own drugs to the house and told Tammy he didn't want to live and self-administered the lethal dose. Now, somehow the prosecution immediately argued that this opened the door to the prior poisoning evidence. Oh. And to show that Tammy's intent was murderous, not that Alan died on his own. So they said, you should bring in that other, that Stephen Brown testimony about the Thanksgiving shit.

Speaker 2:
[124:12] Right.

Speaker 1:
[124:13] And the trial court said, okay, you're right. And now this guy's going to testify too.

Speaker 2:
[124:19] Oh boy.

Speaker 1:
[124:19] Which is terrible for her. Terrible. To have somebody explain the exact scenario again is terrible for her.

Speaker 2:
[124:28] Not good.

Speaker 1:
[124:29] The only thing their lawyer can say in cross-examination is, so you didn't die that night, right? No. That's your witness. That's all I had to say. He's alive still, so it's not the same.

Speaker 2:
[124:41] Yeah, there's the old bumper sticker that goes, but did you die?

Speaker 1:
[124:45] Yeah, that's what they'd eat. That's exactly what it is. But did you die?

Speaker 2:
[124:49] But did you?

Speaker 1:
[124:50] So the medical examiner, they question whether something other than the pudding could have killed her, could have killed him. I mean, it would have been in anything else.

Speaker 2:
[125:01] Even if it doesn't have drugs in it, it's certainly going to make me throw up.

Speaker 1:
[125:04] It certainly sounds gross. So he told the medical examiner, told the attorney that the stomach contents were not tested to determine what they were or weren't, or to determine what they were, whether or whether they contained any kind of illicit drug found in his system. So they, because there was no mystery to that, didn't matter. So they also testify that nothing indicated whether the morphine or muscle relaxants were in the food, or how they were administered to Alan, or whether someone else had administered to them.

Speaker 2:
[125:39] Can you test the stomach contents for the drugs?

Speaker 1:
[125:43] No. No, and this is the same problem. You could test to see if there were still drugs in his stomach, if they take pills or something, because that's in the Corey Richens case, we're going to find that. And that's what we find out kind of from that, in that Corey Richens case is, that's what the defense keeps bringing up is, well, do you know how he took the drug? And they were like, no, we don't know. It just had to have been in something he ate if he didn't take it voluntarily.

Speaker 2:
[126:09] Right.

Speaker 1:
[126:10] And then they put the circumstantial stuff together and they end up with that.

Speaker 2:
[126:14] It would be nice to find out if he took it on purpose, but...

Speaker 1:
[126:18] No way to know.

Speaker 2:
[126:19] Doesn't seem like he did.

Speaker 1:
[126:21] No. So the tests on Alan's blood and urine samples also don't indicate whether the morphine was roxanol, which is the brand that disappeared from the nursing home. So they don't know that. Or if it was just morphine, any kind of whatever, generic whatever. Even though it was five months before he died. So Tammy, remember Tammy suggesting that Alan took the morphine that killed him and that possibly Jamie Payne, a nurse they knew, gave it to him. So she had a source. Well, they definitely bring in Jamie Payne to testify. Oh, yeah. And he said, Well, I've only met Alan once for a brief moment when he was with Tammy at the nursing home where I worked with Tammy. So he died definitely wasn't his drug connect. And he said that also I'm a drug addict personally, he said, but I never gave Tammy any other drugs other than a couple of diet pills one time. So that's it. I didn't give her any morphine. I don't know shit about shit. Then Tammy's son testifies. This is a Jansen Engelman. He testifies that his mother seemed calm when she called to tell him about Alan's death, but that he could tell from her voice that she was upset. He said, she said she thought he died of a heart attack. He said his mother never told him about buying a life insurance policy for Alan, but he'd heard from his younger sister that she had talked about it with her. He said, it seemed odd. I knew they were separated at the time, so it seemed odd that that would happen. Then they bring in Rhonda Brown. Rhonda said she had brought over some pills in an unmarked bottle, and she said, do you think if a person took enough of these pills, it would kill them? I'm like, why are you planning on killing somebody? She said, you just don't believe anybody's going to actually do that. You know? Yeah, no. They bring in Charles Rose here. He's the nurse who left the bottle out, and he said that he knew that her explanation was false, but he had no evidence to try to bust her on it basically. Like you said, probably was embarrassed about it to begin with. I don't know if he's desified to that, but that's got to be a fact. Zyla Thompson saying that Alan never to her knowledge had taken any prescription drugs and that the bottle was basically half empty of this giant flexeril bottle after Tammy was there. Then there's Jennifer Melton, the neighbor who said she saw Tammy in the backyard at 7 a.m. tying up her dogs. It's not good at all.

Speaker 2:
[129:05] It's not good at all.

Speaker 1:
[129:07] They said Tammy sat quietly writing on a notepad. They said Jennifer Melton, who works with Tammy at a nursing home and was her friend, testified that Tammy was calm and giggling while talking on the phone the same day that Alan's body was discovered. That's bad.

Speaker 2:
[129:25] Giggly.

Speaker 1:
[129:26] Giggly. Just tee-hee-hee. Tee-hee. This Melton said that when she stopped by Tammy Duvall's house that day, she already had insurance papers out on her table and said she was going to have her husband cremated because it was the least expensive option. That's fucked. Wow. She said her attitude that morning of was not like someone who just lost her husband. If I lost my husband, I'd be crazy. She wasn't even crying.

Speaker 2:
[129:57] No, she's bereaved. She's not a sap.

Speaker 1:
[129:59] No, I'm not. I look like a schmuck over here. So they talked to the convenience store clerk who talked to her that morning and told her that her husband was dead, saying that she knew already. They talked to Gary, Tammy's boyfriend and insurance agent. That's important. Testified that Tammy immediately tried to collect the policy despite his advice to wait. He said, don't try to collect it right now. It's going to look terrible. You just got it a month ago.

Speaker 2:
[130:29] You're not going to get the money and you're going to look suspicious. Don't do it.

Speaker 1:
[130:33] Yeah. So he also testified about the phone call at 7:30 AM. He's not charged with any crime, although the defense tries to paint him as maybe he had something to do with this. But the investigators likely determined that he likely didn't know shit about what was going on. Whatsoever. Allen's family, multiple cousins, family members all testifies to Allen's character, his opposition to drugs, his general happiness of spirit and being.

Speaker 2:
[131:01] Just a pleasant demeanor.

Speaker 1:
[131:02] Yeah. His hope for a reconciliation with Tammy, everything. They also testified that Allen had in one or more of his more prescient moments, they said, told people, if I die, make sure it's investigated. He told them, like individually, if I die, make sure it's investigated. That's a witness quote right there. The defense case, okay. Well, all you can do is it's, can't say it's self-defense.

Speaker 2:
[131:34] No, you got to say it was a suicide. We didn't have anything to do with this.

Speaker 1:
[131:37] So they call Dr. John Pless, a forensic pathologist hired by the state to review autopsy results. He will say that he believed that Alan died of a morphine overdose and that there was no way to tell who administered it. He said the drugs found in his system could have been used throughout the day that he died and that he thinks that the morphine and muscle relaxants were administered first, then Alan ingested the alcohol. So he took in 100 times a therapeutic dose of morphine and then said, I need a drink.

Speaker 2:
[132:14] I am so thirsty.

Speaker 1:
[132:16] Imagine, okay. Remember on the wire? Let's go back to that. Do you remember after Bubbles shoots up? What does he do? What does he do? He sits there and does what? Drools and fucking nods. And that's like stepped on street shit.

Speaker 2:
[132:32] This is pure pharmaceutical hospice quality fucking morphine. Hospice quality.

Speaker 1:
[132:40] This guy's gonna die anyway. Just make it not hurt. That's what you're getting.

Speaker 2:
[132:45] Fucking pure.

Speaker 1:
[132:47] Pure is the driven snow. So that's what we're talking about here. I mean, this is a totally different thing.

Speaker 2:
[132:54] Hospice quality. That's what I want my plug to say when I call him for anything.

Speaker 1:
[132:59] Yeah, when I want my drug dealer to go, this is hospice quality shit right here.

Speaker 2:
[133:03] You want hospice quality? That's what I got. They don't distract the dying.

Speaker 1:
[133:07] So how the fuck would they ingest all of that? Like 50 times a bubbles dose, and then he'd be like, I need a drink.

Speaker 2:
[133:21] It's got to be try this amazing recipe of three ingredients, right?

Speaker 1:
[133:27] You know, this is wild.

Speaker 2:
[133:29] There's actually six.

Speaker 1:
[133:31] Yeah, there is six. So they said that the matter of his death, in his opinion, was homicide due to the level of morphine found. He said no one can give themselves that much.

Speaker 2:
[133:43] No way.

Speaker 1:
[133:44] He said he'd never seen a level of morphine that high in a dead body ever.

Speaker 2:
[133:48] Yeah, 600 times the pharmaceutical dose.

Speaker 1:
[133:52] So in closing, the defense tells the jurors that he doesn't think the state proved that Tammy killed her husband.

Speaker 2:
[134:00] He doesn't think so.

Speaker 1:
[134:02] Just doesn't think they proved it. He said this whole case is speculation.

Speaker 2:
[134:05] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[134:07] Speculation. He said that the state provided a lot of evidence. True, true, but they left enough room for plenty of reasonable doubt.

Speaker 2:
[134:16] It's enough for error, and that error is a reasonable doubt, and you must acquit her.

Speaker 1:
[134:23] And then he does... This is like when someone steals a song, but changes it just enough. This is one of those things. He's heard every prosecutor, every defense attorney, use this particular analogy, and he's going to take it, steal it, but twist it just a little bit so he doesn't sound like such a hack.

Speaker 2:
[134:42] Nice, nice, baby.

Speaker 1:
[134:45] He compared, yup, he goes, he compared the state's case to putting together a child's toy. Not a puzzle, every other person says, it's like a puzzle. Sure, there might be a few pieces missing, but you see the picture, that's what every attorney says, and then the defense attorney will say, he's missing.

Speaker 2:
[135:08] How's this like a child's toy? I'm riveted.

Speaker 1:
[135:10] He said, this is like putting together a child's toy. It has hundreds of pieces and instructional steps, but it just doesn't come together right.

Speaker 2:
[135:20] Don't let your kids play with the shit you build them, sir. What are you talking about?

Speaker 1:
[135:27] He's like, I don't want to use that tired puzzle one that everybody uses. That's just, that's just tired. What if I...

Speaker 2:
[135:32] I want to talk about the time that I built a tricycle out of my kid's four-wheeled car.

Speaker 1:
[135:39] That poor kid, we had another one after the funeral, you know, we rebuilt our lives, you know, we didn't want to let it go.

Speaker 2:
[135:46] Yeah, we named him Charlie Two.

Speaker 1:
[135:48] Yeah, that's how we did it. But would kids' toys besides Legos have hundreds of pieces, by the way?

Speaker 2:
[135:55] Not hundreds, no. It's usually very simple.

Speaker 1:
[135:58] I'll tell you what, if I bought my kids a toy like Christmas time and it had hundreds of pieces, I would hurl it through the store's front fucking window.

Speaker 2:
[136:07] I'd send it right the fuck back to Amazon, which is where I probably buy it.

Speaker 1:
[136:09] Before Christmas morning starts. Yeah, fuck that. He said that if Tammy was smart enough to orchestrate the murder by stealing a bottle of morphine five months in advance, buying an insurance policy, and convincing her husband to not only sign it, but then eat poisoned food, don't you think she would have had a better escape plan? That's the other thing I love.

Speaker 2:
[136:33] No, first you just...

Speaker 1:
[136:34] Don't you think this murderer would be less stupid? It's a terrible defense.

Speaker 2:
[136:38] Other point is, he just painted how fucking easy it was and how diabolical she is. She's had five months planning this and she didn't give herself an out because she thought this was good. That's what it is.

Speaker 1:
[136:54] And they said, don't you think that if she was that smart to plan it that long that she'd have a better escape plan? Her escape plan was cremation that day. Yeah. That was the escape plan.

Speaker 2:
[137:04] She thought she got away with it.

Speaker 1:
[137:06] That's it. As soon as cremation wasn't happening that day, that's her escape plan, the whole thing's. She had one escape plan.

Speaker 2:
[137:14] She had plan A, plan B, fuck plan B.

Speaker 1:
[137:18] Yeah, they said, obviously, there's no proof she stole it, so what are you gonna do? Fuck yourselves, that's what they said.

Speaker 2:
[137:25] I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[137:26] So during sentencing, or during a verdict here, comes in that sentencing, the jury is seven women and five men. Okay, six hours of deliberation, they're talking about it.

Speaker 2:
[137:37] Seven women may have reasons why they would want to kill somebody.

Speaker 1:
[137:42] Yeah, I could see it, you know, one of those where they go, I'm not saying she didn't. But maybe not. After six hours, they find him guilty of murder and six counts of insurance fraud and three counts of obstruction of justice.

Speaker 2:
[137:58] Everything.

Speaker 1:
[137:59] Everything they could, everything they put out there. Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. During sentencing, the prosecutor said, quote, she is a stone cold killer, plain and simple. She killed her husband, a person who I feel truly loved her, and all she could see was $100,000 stamped on his forehead. That's it. Big stamp. The defense attorney argued that Tammy, she has almost no criminal history. I mean, she had a theft conviction more than 20 years ago. Who cares? She has maintained employment for a long time. Besides that time, she had to leave that job because there was fucking morphine missing. But besides that, she's very well-employed, and she's been a productive member of society for most of her adult life.

Speaker 2:
[138:48] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[138:49] Okay. Tammy also tells the judge that she is dissatisfied with her legal representation because her public defender did not call some of the witnesses or present some of the evidence she suggested.

Speaker 2:
[139:03] So the fuck what?

Speaker 1:
[139:05] You're not even an RN. You're definitely not a lawyer. You're not even an LPN. You didn't even finish nursing school.

Speaker 2:
[139:10] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[139:12] You didn't even finish nursing school. They were my law school. What the fuck are you talking about? That you, see, you can't. And whenever you see crazy shit, by the way, going on with a lawyer and you go, why are they doing, like the Corey Richins case, the whole time I was saying, this has to be Corey. This has to be Corey. No lawyer would come up with this as a strategy. This has to be what Corey wants. Otherwise, it makes no sense.

Speaker 2:
[139:37] What you're saying is, you didn't have my green chili chicken enchiladas.

Speaker 1:
[139:41] I did, I didn't, I did.

Speaker 2:
[139:42] That's what you're saying.

Speaker 1:
[139:44] That's what you're saying. So that's what I mean. You got that and the other one too. It just makes sense that all of that goes together. So during this hearing, she's not satisfied. Oh, Sarah Boone, that's another one. Sarah Boone went through, she was on like her eighth lawyer by the time of the trial because none of the lawyers would do what she told them to do.

Speaker 2:
[140:09] None of them are doing her strategy because it's going to get slammed back in our face.

Speaker 1:
[140:16] That's right. So then she found some guy to do it, some Hammonegger who, in my opinion, probably just needed the publicity and doesn't have that thriving of a law practice. Like I said, allegedly, in my opinion.

Speaker 2:
[140:27] Bet she's having a good day.

Speaker 1:
[140:29] Bet she's having a good day, but finally got somebody to fucking do what she wanted him to do. So they said that she believed that, you know, that this is, she's not guilty. That's it. But, you know, and Tammy also said that she told the judge that she believed that, you know, that the police had plotted against her, basically, having, you know, telling people things that weren't true, get them to say bad things about her. And the prosecution countered with, they believe she was plotting to defraud the court by having the county pay for a transcript of the trial for her appeal. And that's why she's doing this. That's the only reason why she's saying this, so she can get the court to pick. Transcripts are really expensive.

Speaker 2:
[141:13] Oh, I'm sure they are.

Speaker 1:
[141:14] They cost thousands of dollars. So she's trying to get the court to pay for it. And if you don't have money, you don't have right to just have them print it for you.

Speaker 2:
[141:21] Transcribed? Yeah, that's...

Speaker 1:
[141:22] You have a right to an attorney, but you don't have a right to a transcript, unfortunately. That's tough.

Speaker 2:
[141:28] Yeah, I don't see that one.

Speaker 1:
[141:29] It's tough. No, there's certain circumstances where they have to give you it, but not if you're doing it all. The judge found no circumstances that mitigated her sentence, but cited certain aggravating factors, including her character and the nature of the circumstances of the crime. That's great. An aggravating circumstance is your character. You're such a shitty person, it's literally an aggravator at your murder trial. You're a dick. And he said the murder seemed planned well in advance. You, ma'am, may fuck off 60 and one half years in jail.

Speaker 2:
[142:05] And a half.

Speaker 1:
[142:06] And a half.

Speaker 2:
[142:07] And six months.

Speaker 1:
[142:08] 55 for murder. Four for insurance fraud. And a year and a half for obstruction. A year and a half just for wiping that foam. That's what you get.

Speaker 2:
[142:18] Got her 18 months for that.

Speaker 1:
[142:22] Earliest possible release date, December 8th, 2040.

Speaker 2:
[142:26] Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1:
[142:28] She'd be 81 at the time. Uh-oh. That's not good. The reaction, members of Alan's family said they were pissed off by the sentence.

Speaker 2:
[142:39] It doesn't seem like that much.

Speaker 1:
[142:41] They said she should have gotten the max on everything. She's a murderer. She plotted everything.

Speaker 2:
[142:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[142:47] Duvall's cousin said she's a con artist. Killing Alan was her ultimate con. It's just not right taking someone's family away like that. The husband saying she's a beguiling and shrewd really starts to-

Speaker 2:
[143:00] Right. Beguiling.

Speaker 1:
[143:02] If she was that beguiling and shrewd, she would have got away with this, I think. But yeah, this is, I guess the max was 80 years. That would have been the max she could have gotten, which really doesn't make that much of a difference. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[143:18] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[143:20] The only difference it could have made is maybe then she would have been eligible for parole when she was 90, which means she'd be dead, more likely to be dead than when she's 81, I guess. But you go to prison from 50 to fucking 81, you're not going to last that. No.

Speaker 2:
[143:37] They gave her as many years as they gave her, the earliest is going to be out at 2040. That's still so far away.

Speaker 1:
[143:45] So long. It's so far away. Another 20 years maybe would have added since it's what? 2040, that'd be 40, so it's about two-thirds of the sentence. So that would have added another 13 years or some shit to it, which I mean, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[144:02] That guarantees pretty much that she dies in there, but it might be the difference. Maybe she'll get out and she'll have to have a CNA take care of her for the rest of her life.

Speaker 1:
[144:12] Wipe her ass and hopefully overdose her on something. But I guess that's the difference between maybe parole at 81 and maybe parole at 95.

Speaker 2:
[144:20] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[144:20] Which is, so yeah, they could be right about that. And that's their opinion. They're allowed to have it. So this trial was covered really a lot locally. The Republic newspaper in Columbus, it took over their whole front page for a while there. Later featured on Oxygen Snapped. Any time a woman kills a man, it's on Snapped, period. It's just all it is. Season 17, episode 8, After The Verdict. And also different specials, A Recipe For Murder, The Poison Pudding Murder. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[144:56] I mean, that shit's poison in the first place.

Speaker 1:
[145:00] I love pudding.

Speaker 2:
[145:01] Yeah, but not Jell-O, right?

Speaker 1:
[145:05] Oh, not, what do you mean, Jell-O or pudding? Or Jell-O pudding? Jell-O brand pudding?

Speaker 2:
[145:09] Yeah, that shit's disgusting.

Speaker 1:
[145:11] I think it's great.

Speaker 2:
[145:12] Do you?

Speaker 1:
[145:13] I love it.

Speaker 2:
[145:14] Yeah. Really?

Speaker 1:
[145:15] Not the instant. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I will not eat instant pudding. Just stir it up and throw.

Speaker 2:
[145:19] That's disgusting.

Speaker 1:
[145:20] One bite, throw that shit right in the garbage. In a cup? Disgusting.

Speaker 2:
[145:24] In a cup, I'll pour that in your asshole and eat it out, James.

Speaker 1:
[145:27] Yeah, no, no. Yeah, I was like, are you crazy? Pudding cups, especially the mix with the vanilla and the chocolate together. Are you kidding? Not only that.

Speaker 2:
[145:34] The caramel.

Speaker 1:
[145:35] Cook and serve. The cook and serve is my favorite thing in the world, because that has the pudding skin on it, and I am a huge fan of pudding skin. I make the cook and serve, and I'll make two packages, and then I gotta go on all my cabinets looking for the, like, looking for things that are, like, flat, so it makes the most pudding skin. I don't want tall and deep. I want short and wide. I don't care. So, I love it, and I don't care who knows it. Jimmy, I'm not embarrassed.

Speaker 2:
[146:05] How do you do it? Is it like a chicken skin?

Speaker 1:
[146:07] I mix it in. I mix it in with the pudding. That way, every once in a while, I get this little chunk of pudding skin.

Speaker 2:
[146:11] Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:
[146:12] I can see that.

Speaker 2:
[146:13] I thought you were peeling it like a scab.

Speaker 1:
[146:17] I'm eating all the whole pudding. No, no, no. So, I have all of these containers out all over my counter, and there's boiled pudding everywhere all over my countertops and floor. And then I have to take all of our good food out of the fridge and fill that with all these containers of pudding. And then I eat like seven of them in one night, and I get myself super sick.

Speaker 2:
[146:36] You're a monster.

Speaker 1:
[146:38] I'm a monster. That's what happens when you smoke a bunch of weed and it's 2 a.m. and you have too much pudding in your cabinets.

Speaker 2:
[146:43] They start putting pudding in the cabinets.

Speaker 1:
[146:47] Like, fuck, I got to eat that pudding. And then I have to wait for it. So I have to go in there and feel it. Is it still warm? No, I want to wait for it to get cold. Sit with your arms crossed. I do. Jesus, I'm stoned. Well, I'll smoke more and then I'll come back and I'll have more pudding skin. It's been a while since I've had any of that. So she goes to prison. DOC number is 215966. She's in the Rockville Correctional Facility in Indiana. We'll talk about her appeals in a second here. But a few similar cases, because this is a very common thing that goes on.

Speaker 2:
[147:24] Poison?

Speaker 1:
[147:25] Very common. Yeah. Poison of a, I made you this, and it's poison type of shit. That's crazy. But you know what? It shows planning. Like if a man was trying to poison you, they grab you in a headlock and go, you put it in your fucking mouth right now, and they try to stuff it into your face. You eat the fucking poison. That's how they poison you.

Speaker 2:
[147:46] We don't make desserts. We make cheeseburgers and steaks. You're going to put some fucking poison on a cheeseburger? I will not ruin my cheeseburger.

Speaker 1:
[147:53] If you show up with a pudding recipe, someone's suspicious.

Speaker 2:
[147:57] Somebody's going to ask some questions.

Speaker 1:
[147:59] Jimmie doesn't make pudding. Did you crumble cookie on that? I don't believe it for a second. I'm not buying it.

Speaker 2:
[148:06] It's asphalt, isn't it?

Speaker 1:
[148:06] No fucking way. Yeah, what is that? What did you put on there? Is that ashes? Is that cigarette ashes? What are you doing?

Speaker 2:
[148:13] So much so, you know what? My daughter just had a volleyball thing and we made cupcakes and took them to the girls and I just dropped her off with the girls. And then the girls were like, where'd these come from? And Preston was like, my dad and I made them. They didn't eat a single fucking cupcake.

Speaker 1:
[148:33] You don't look like a reliable cupcake source, apparently.

Speaker 2:
[148:36] He's saying that bald guy with the beard made them. Fuck that, nobody's eating.

Speaker 1:
[148:40] There's at least beard hair in here somewhere. Never mind, they're not eating it.

Speaker 2:
[148:45] I go press over the cupcakes and she goes, oh, we threw them all away. I was like, all of them? She goes, nobody ate any of them. I'm like, why not you? And she goes, I didn't want one.

Speaker 1:
[148:54] I was like, what the? I eat your cooking all the time.

Speaker 2:
[149:00] What the fuck, man? They were delicious. Thanks a lot. They were fun, fatty, I loved them. I ate them, I had two of them here before I sent them with her.

Speaker 1:
[149:07] Those are good as fuck, man.

Speaker 2:
[149:09] With the little shit inside them.

Speaker 1:
[149:11] Yeah, the speckled, the speckled.

Speaker 2:
[149:12] The big, chewy shit, yeah, not the fucking sprinkles. We'd get the good ones, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[149:18] It's in there, yeah, it's in the shit. So this is, that's why men don't usually have this poisoning thing, and we usually go about it a little more of a violent way. Whereas a lot of times a woman, if they're smaller or they don't have whatever, this is the way they have to go about it. So this is mainly a woman-y crime here. Number one, Cory Richens, first of all. I mean, first and foremost, this is a very similar case to Cory Richens. Very similar.

Speaker 2:
[149:43] Minus the food, right?

Speaker 1:
[149:45] No, she, well, she put it in a drink. But she had tried to poison him with a sandwich.

Speaker 2:
[149:50] Oh, with several things, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[149:52] A month and a half before that, or on Valentine's Day with a sandwich, tune in to Patreon for more on that. But she had tried to poison him with that shit, and then just kept at it. She's like, you never give up is what you do there.

Speaker 2:
[150:05] Keep making her food that tastes shitty. He's going to eat a lot.

Speaker 1:
[150:08] Yeah. He'll get used to it. He'll just think maybe my taste buds are going wrong here.

Speaker 2:
[150:13] Maybe it's me.

Speaker 1:
[150:14] Maybe it's me. There's also Sabrina Lyman, who in California was convicted in 2017. She and her lover, a guy named Jonathan Hearn, who was a firefighter, plotted to kill her husband, Robert Lyman. They first attempted arsenic poisoning by lacing his favorite banana pudding. We're up to pudding again. I guess because people think it's real sweet and if you mix it in, you don't see it, so it'll dissolve in there. It's a liquidy thing.

Speaker 2:
[150:42] And you take big fucking plugs of that shit.

Speaker 1:
[150:44] Yeah. People just eat pudding. But they know what pudding tastes like is the thing.

Speaker 2:
[150:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[150:49] I know I could pick a shit pudding out.

Speaker 2:
[150:52] Oh, God. Snack pack, caramel and chocolate blend. If I take a big plug of that and it doesn't taste like what I know it tastes like, it's going right back in the sink.

Speaker 1:
[151:00] That's it, right in the garbage. So they said, and sending it to work with him, sent the pudding to work with him. Sabrina reportedly placed it in his lunch, but later called to warn him not to eat it because, quote, the bananas had gone bad. Maybe they were spoiled. I realized I used spoiled bananas, so don't eat it.

Speaker 2:
[151:22] Maybe she called to say that after he took, after he ate it, to try to cover it up?

Speaker 1:
[151:28] Possible, or she had second thoughts that's going to get traced back to me, one of the two. Because if you send it to work with him, and then he drops dead at work, now that banana pudding is not in your control anymore. They're going to take that banana pudding and test it.

Speaker 2:
[151:42] Sure, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[151:43] The same way she made sure with that other guy to take, Tammy made sure to take the bowl with her, and when they showed up with Corey Richens and all that, none of the glasses had traces of fentanyl in them because they'd already been washed. You know what I'm saying? So it's shit like that. So anyway, that failed. Then they later staged a workplace shooting to look like a robbery.

Speaker 2:
[152:08] That's how they did it?

Speaker 1:
[152:10] This is fucking crazy. Hearn testified extensively, the firefighter, about the pudding plan, including testing arsenic on a neighbor's dog. Oh my god, could these people get worse? This some poor innocent fucking dog is gonna take the brunt of this shit.

Speaker 2:
[152:25] What are you, head and shoulders? You're doing animal testing? You piece of shit.

Speaker 1:
[152:28] This is fucking disgusting. Holy shit. A dog too. Sabrina was convicted of first degree murder and conspiracy but acquitted of the attempted poisoning charge due to lack of physical evidence. She got 25 to life though. Wow. That's crazy. Here's another one that's sort of similar here. Stacey Castor in New York. 2000 and 2005. She poisoned both of her husbands with antifreeze.

Speaker 2:
[152:57] Oh, Jesus.

Speaker 1:
[152:59] Her first husband, Michael Wallace, died in 2000, initially ruled a heart attack. And her second husband, David Castor, in 2005, initially staged as a suicide with a glass of antifreeze and a suicide note.

Speaker 2:
[153:14] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[153:15] She used a turkey baster to administer the poison. I hope she wasn't putting that in other places. When suspicion arose, she attempted to kill her daughter by spiking her drinks with pills and vodka and forging a note framing her daughter for the murders.

Speaker 2:
[153:32] Oh, this bitch is crazy.

Speaker 1:
[153:35] Somehow, she's worse than the last one we just talked about with the dog. At least they didn't try to kill her kid, her daughter, and blame her for it, too.

Speaker 2:
[153:44] Frame her for the second, for her second. She was going to kill a third and frame the third for her second.

Speaker 1:
[153:51] For her second. Now exhumation, I guess they, she got away with it pretty much and then exhumation toxicology revealed antifreeze in both husbands.

Speaker 2:
[154:02] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[154:03] She was convicted of second-degree murder for her husband and attempted murder against her daughter. How is it second-degree murder? This is planned as fuck.

Speaker 2:
[154:14] Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1:
[154:15] You can't poison on a whim.

Speaker 2:
[154:18] No.

Speaker 1:
[154:19] You know what I mean? Or whatever. And it's, wow. They had a fucking suicide note and shit and everything. That is diabolical. She died in prison in 2016.

Speaker 2:
[154:30] Wow, that was fast.

Speaker 1:
[154:32] Also, Joanne Curley in Pennsylvania in 1991, she slowly poisoned her husband, Robert Curley, with thallium, which is from rat poison. Over the course of a year, she did this. That's diabolical. She started shortly after their marriage, spiked his iced tea and food repeatedly, causing prolonged symptoms, and they're always misdiagnosed. Did we cover this one?

Speaker 2:
[155:00] I feel like we covered a similar one.

Speaker 1:
[155:02] Because thallium sounds familiar. Yeah. Well, also, she kept getting misdiagnosed as something else, because that I remember. She finally gave him a massive dose in pizza and tea. She pleaded guilty to third degree murder and served 20 years about and was released in 2016.

Speaker 2:
[155:23] Oh, Jesus. She's out there?

Speaker 1:
[155:26] She's out there, everybody. Take a look. And then finally, Audrey Marie Hilley in Alabama, convicted in 83. She's known as the Alabama Black Widow.

Speaker 2:
[155:36] Oh, yeah. She poisoned everybody.

Speaker 1:
[155:38] She poisoned her husband, Frank, with arsenic over time, initially thought to be natural causes. Then she attempted to poison her daughter with arsenic while faking her own death and assuming a new identity. She collected insurance and remarried, and her second husband survived but got sick. Arsenic was detected and exhumed remains. She was convicted of murder and attempted murder. She escaped briefly but was recaptured and died in prison. What a mess. Holy shit. I feel like we covered her, too. Oh, Marie Hilley.

Speaker 2:
[156:13] Perhaps the women that do this, too, are like extra fucked up where they escape or they get out and change their name. Or there's an extra layer to their fucked up.

Speaker 1:
[156:27] Yes, because to do this particular shit, you have to be fucking diabolical.

Speaker 2:
[156:33] Overtime is crap.

Speaker 1:
[156:35] Overtime.

Speaker 2:
[156:36] You're poisoning them eight, nine, ten times, and then finally a big one.

Speaker 1:
[156:40] Well, even think about Tammy. Go back to Tammy. Five months of planning this, getting the drugs five months earlier. Think about five months. That's not, I'm mad and I choked this person to death, or I shot them, or this is, that is fucking sick. You have so many opportunities to change your mind. Like all the time in the world to change your mind. So anyway, July, 2011, Duvall's attorneys file a motion asking for the Circuit Court to correct errors in her trial and request that five of her insurance fraud convictions and two of her obstruction convictions and the sentences she received for those all be vacated. In August of 2011, the judge denies their request to overturn seven of the 10 convictions and tells her, you're fine, get your ass back to jail. September 2012 is her big appeal for the Indiana Court of Appeals. She appeals on these issues, whether the trial court abused its discretion in admitting Stephen Brown's testimony about the alleged poison, the prior poisoning. Yeah, because they remember that they opened the door of the defense and they're arguing they didn't. So that's a real ticky tack legal thing they're arguing there, which can overturn shit, though. Whether the admission of testimony about the missing Roxanol at Miller's Merry Manor was fundamental error seems pretty relevant to this.

Speaker 2:
[158:12] Missing and there's some in him.

Speaker 1:
[158:15] Yeah, whether multiple insurance fraud and obstruction of justice convictions should be merged as a single continuing offense. So the murder conviction is affirmed. That's different. That's good. And then the judge wrote that as far as Stephen Brown's testimony, admission may have been technical error, but harmless, there was overwhelming independent evidence of guilt. Basically, if he didn't testify at all, you'd still find her guilty. Wouldn't matter. The Roxanol testimony, no fundamental error, properly admitted as evidence of access to the murder weapon.

Speaker 2:
[158:54] Right.

Speaker 1:
[158:55] Makes perfect sense to me. And also, insurance fraud and obstruction, the continuing crime doctrine applied. Six insurance fraud convictions reduced to one, three obstruction convictions reduced to one. So they do that. They do the continuing crime doctrine. So those are all smooshed into one rather than six and three. So now there's that. October 24th, 2012, they file, her attorneys file a brief with the Indiana Court of Appeals asking for a rehearing. They deny her. They also petition the Supreme Court of Indiana to hear the case. In January of 2013, the Indiana Supreme Court declined to hear further appeal. We are sick of hearing from you.

Speaker 2:
[159:44] We don't care anymore.

Speaker 1:
[159:45] The court's refusal to hear her appeal means her only recourse is seeking post-conviction relief by arguing a new point. She can't, with none of the shit she's used, such as ineffective assistance of counsel. None of this shit has worked for her. She remains at the Rockville Correctional Facility. Her case got a lot of attention. Nancy Grace devoted a full episode to it in August of 2010. What the f- we can't get away from fucking Nancy Grace, man.

Speaker 2:
[160:16] Oh, we never will.

Speaker 1:
[160:18] We never will.

Speaker 2:
[160:19] She's going to stick around forever.

Speaker 1:
[160:20] Just hear that voice, always, always. There's something, she's the most sanctimonious sounding human being I've ever heard. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[160:29] It seems like-

Speaker 1:
[160:29] It's her tone.

Speaker 2:
[160:30] Yeah. She was right, evidently, a couple of times in her life somewhere.

Speaker 1:
[160:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[160:36] And people loved it. And now they can't get enough of her voice.

Speaker 1:
[160:40] That's what I don't get.

Speaker 2:
[160:43] I hate her.

Speaker 1:
[160:44] I can't stand her. I can't stand her because-

Speaker 2:
[160:46] I hate that woman.

Speaker 1:
[160:48] Her brand of prosecutor is a brand that is like, you know how you're going to act if you're a woman prosecutor in the south. And it's like her, watch the trial in the staircase. That lady, she is the exact Nancy Grace prototype, where she's like, he was bisexual, like doing like that, like this mixing, like almost preaching in with this, like judge him for his lifestyle. I just hate it.

Speaker 2:
[161:19] He does not belong here.

Speaker 1:
[161:22] Yeah, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 2:
[161:23] You know where he belongs.

Speaker 1:
[161:26] Wank, wank.

Speaker 2:
[161:27] Put him in there where he'll be happy.

Speaker 1:
[161:29] Yeah, where he'll be happy with all the others. They're going to be floating around there just to float. That's the kind of thing that she sounds like to me. And I don't know if she's like that or not, but her voice makes my skin crawl.

Speaker 2:
[161:42] I don't like her.

Speaker 1:
[161:45] I don't care.

Speaker 2:
[161:45] She just acts like somebody did this to her personally, and nobody did, Nance, calm the fuck down.

Speaker 1:
[161:55] And she called it the Oreo Pudding Murder. Then there was the snapped one, Poisonous Love. That was the name of that episode. It was alongside the Nancy Kissel case, what we talked about, about a double feature about wives who poison their husband. The ID Channel's Fatal Vows series covered the case in an episode titled Death for Dessert.

Speaker 2:
[162:17] Gross.

Speaker 1:
[162:18] And his cousins, David Thompson, Donald Duvall, Barbara Honia, Zilla Thompson, or Zyla Thompson all appeared in the documentary Coverage Expressing Grief. And basically also the fact that they're just so mad for 100 grand. This is all for 100 grand. His cousin said, She took a great guy out of all of our lives that we love dearly. He was just the light of the party and everybody cheered up when he showed up. He was just always so happy and so positive. They could have gone, they could have gave her 200 years. She ain't going to live long enough to live those out. So they gave her the rest of her life, but they didn't give her the rest of her life.

Speaker 2:
[162:59] Eighty-one? That's very doable.

Speaker 1:
[163:02] That's doable. Yeah, especially if she keeps in good shape.

Speaker 2:
[163:05] Especially a woman.

Speaker 1:
[163:06] Yeah, women live longer, period. Now, this Crime Watch Daily, this was 2016, also aired. This is season one, episode 84. Holy shit. How about a new season, guys? How Tammy Duvall killed her husband slash Placerville dead husband slash Susie Bigamist. That's the name of the thing.

Speaker 2:
[163:30] They don't have-

Speaker 1:
[163:30] Susie Bigamist.

Speaker 2:
[163:32] They don't have enough episodes. Are they doing every 12 minutes a new episode?

Speaker 1:
[163:37] I have no clue.

Speaker 2:
[163:37] How do you do a murder in 12 minutes?

Speaker 1:
[163:40] Crime Watch Daily with Chris Hansen. He's like, I'll do your murder. I'll find out if you're a pedophile. I'll get it all done in 12 minutes.

Speaker 2:
[163:47] Sally Bigamist. We'll wrap it up in 12 minutes.

Speaker 1:
[163:51] Susie Bigamist. There was a book here that, I mean, we went through it, but it was mainly just the same shit from the court documents. There wasn't a whole lot of big revelations, but there might have been a couple of lines I got that only were in there, so I might as well give it out. Tammy Duvall, Husband Killer is the name of it.

Speaker 2:
[164:09] Right on the nose, nailed it.

Speaker 1:
[164:10] Right on the nose by Jesse Diller, Jesse with an I. So there you go, everybody. There is Columbus, Indiana, and just some crazy shit. What is wrong with people?

Speaker 2:
[164:21] It's unbelievable.

Speaker 1:
[164:23] The more I hear about this stuff too, we all like, people give us food all the time. People we know, you go to people's houses.

Speaker 2:
[164:34] We show up to clubs and people bring us fresh baked cookies.

Speaker 1:
[164:37] All the time. And we eat them. And we fucking eat them.

Speaker 2:
[164:40] We are morons.

Speaker 1:
[164:42] We eat them and we don't even think twice about it.

Speaker 2:
[164:43] We're absolute idiots.

Speaker 1:
[164:45] We smell it and we go, that looks great. That smells great. And we start eating shit.

Speaker 2:
[164:49] I bring them home. I put them in my bag, put them on a plane with me, get them home and throw them at my kids.

Speaker 1:
[164:55] Here kids, eat this. You want to test this out? I haven't tried it yet.

Speaker 2:
[164:59] It's my face. Somebody made that.

Speaker 1:
[165:02] Think about like DoorDash. That's a stranger. That is horrifying. That is bringing your food or fucking Uber Eats.

Speaker 2:
[165:10] The amount of hands between your mouth and that cheeseburger's beginning. It's like 11.

Speaker 1:
[165:17] Yeah. I mean, and they've always had food delivery, but it was someone who worked for the restaurant, but they hasn't poisoned anybody in the millions of deliveries they made. I don't know if this person's. Who knows?

Speaker 2:
[165:28] We are very trusting.

Speaker 1:
[165:31] All of us with our food, and I think about that all the time, and I think to myself, like, I get ridiculous thoughts, because I'm like, is Sarah going to poison me? And then I'm like, no, I don't think so. She doesn't seem like the poisoning type, and she loves food, so I feel like she wouldn't want to make food taste shitty, so she wouldn't want to do it. So she'd be like, I would make it taste bad. I'd find another way to kill it.

Speaker 2:
[165:51] I'd feel bad to ruin a steak with poison. I really would.

Speaker 1:
[165:54] I would too. Yeah. Especially those first couple bites, you know, before they just keel over and die, they're going to be like, you suck at cooking.

Speaker 2:
[166:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[166:03] They're going to think your food sucks, and you're going to have to live with that, and then they drop dead.

Speaker 2:
[166:07] Their last thought on earth is, boy, Jimmie makes a shit steak. No, I don't.

Speaker 1:
[166:13] Jimmie doesn't season this for, put some bullshit on this. What do you put on this, crushed up aspirin? This tastes like shit. Would you soak this in Listerine? It's terrible. This is terrible. Peek-a-doo, that's the important part. Don't stop short of the peak, Jimmie. You know how it works. Holy shit. So there you go. There's Columbus, Indiana.

Speaker 2:
[166:39] Unreal.

Speaker 1:
[166:40] A goddamn crazy episode, and crazy people doing crazy things. Honestly, Alan seemed like a party. He seemed like a fun guy.

Speaker 2:
[166:47] Really?

Speaker 1:
[166:47] Yeah. Seemed like a guy you wouldn't mind hanging out with. Seemed like a cool dude.

Speaker 2:
[166:51] Not a dude to kill over 100 grand, that's for sure.

Speaker 1:
[166:54] Give me a fucking break. Come on, man.

Speaker 2:
[166:56] I'd rather get an $100,000 Corvette with him with a spare Cousy and move on down the road.

Speaker 1:
[167:02] You got an extra Cousy? Sure do, buddy. And then you guys pull off together. You're Thelma and Louise. Thelma and Cousy over here.

Speaker 2:
[167:13] Open those teatops out.

Speaker 1:
[167:15] It's teatop time, baby. Let's do it. So if you like this story, tell everyone you know about it and also tell the internet. Get on whatever app you are on and whatever app you listen on and give us five stars. And if you're watching on Netflix, grab, pull up one of these apps and give us five stars. Who cares? You can do it.

Speaker 2:
[167:34] Tell Netflix, you'll love it.

Speaker 1:
[167:36] And tell Netflix you'll love it too. Yeah, the more you tell them, the better. So do that. Keep coming back and listening over and over again. Head over to shutupandgivemurder.com. Tickets for live shows are there, as well as all of our merchandise, anything you can think of, from skateboards to coffee mugs to shower curtains, we have it, and also live shows. Get your tickets right now. Next date with tickets available, because May 1st in Salt Lake City is sold out. May 2nd in Denver has a few tickets left, so you can get in there and get those. May 29th, Buffalo sold out, but Royal Oak, Michigan, May 30th is not sold out. Few tickets, I mean a few left for that one. It's so sparse, yeah, you better get in there right now. Then after the summer, September 18th, Milwaukee, September 19th, Minneapolis, October 3rd, Dallas, October 16th, San Jose, California, October 17th, Sacramento, California, November 11th, Terrytown, New York, the Terrytown Music Hall. Beautiful, cool old venue, really nice place. Just feels like comedy in there, it's good. And then the 14th of November in Boston, also at the Chevalier, which is also a great theater, real cool place there too. So come out and see us. And it's not like in the traffic-y part of Boston.

Speaker 2:
[168:52] No, it's up in Medford.

Speaker 1:
[168:53] It's fantastic. So yeah, it's great. It's in Medford. So if you're like, I don't want to drive in there, you don't have to, you can go around it and you can avoid all those loops and circles and shit that they have there. So come out and see us there. We cannot wait to see you guys. That's shutupandgivemurder.com. You also want to follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram and Small Town Pod on Facebook. Then get yourself Patreon. What are you doing? Be a part of it. Our Patreon is, we're very proud of it. $5 a month or above. And you can put whatever you want, but anybody $5 a month or above, and we're not raising it. No, we're not. Anything else can be as expensive as it wants to be. Our Patreon is five bucks, period. We don't want to price people out of it. We just don't. People, we've been told by so many, we can make more money. We don't care. We're not pricing people out of this. We want them to enjoy it and we want them to like it. So anybody $5 a month or above, and if you want to throw more in, feel free. Go ahead. But you're going to get everything that we put out, including as soon as you subscribe, hundreds of back bonus episodes, over 300, between 300 and 400. There's a shitload of them there. As many episodes as that lady had flexor pills in her bottle. Tons of them. So, and anybody $5 a month or above, you get everything, you get those subscriptions, as soon as you get it, then new ones every other week, one Crime In Sports and one Small Town Murder. This week is no different. For Crime In Sports, we're going to talk about, I believe it's pronounced the Ecclesia Athletic Association.

Speaker 2:
[170:21] Sure, I'll take it.

Speaker 1:
[170:21] This was, that sounds good to me. This was an organization to keep inner city youth off the streets and help them with sports and things like that. And of course, it turned into a disgusting mess of horribleness. Then for Small Town Murder, part two of Corey Richins, the most fascinating case I've ever heard in my life. And I've watched the whole trial and we're right in the middle of it. And it's a lot. Bad mom, bad mom. If you checked out, yeah, look, bad wife, bad mom, bad person. And if you're on the fence about checking this out, read the comments from Patreon about how much people loved this episode because they loved it. And we're gonna give you more. They loved it. They're gonna give you more. We're gonna give you more this week, more trials and even bigger spectacles. That's gonna be awesome. Can't wait to do that. patreon.com/crime In Sports is where you get all that. And you get everything we put out. Crime In Sports, Your Stupid Opinions, and Small Town Murder all ad free with your Patreon as well. And you get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right goddamn now. Jimmie, do me a favor and hit me with the names of the most wonderful people in the world whose cookies we can trust to not be full of poison. Jimmie, hit me with them right fucking now.

Speaker 2:
[171:33] This is Executive Proof Sir Gary Howard and Gary Indiana James.

Speaker 1:
[171:37] Gary and Gary. Holy shit.

Speaker 2:
[171:39] Happy Hours in Buffalo, Texas.

Speaker 1:
[171:42] Buffalo, Texas. Wow. Still get the lake effect down there, I feel like. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[171:49] Exact Tax Solutions also. Me.

Speaker 1:
[171:51] It's that time of year, guys.

Speaker 2:
[171:53] Your tax needs this time of year. That's a bitch. Amy and Danny in Denver. I'll see you guys soon. Matthew Benitez. Thank you very much. Mel B. Not that one. Shelly McGlone and Sarah in Texas. Happy birthday, Sarah. What a big day. Happy birthday, Sarah in Texas. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Ryan Bender, Janice Hill, Ashley with no last name, Candace Yashas, Rhea with no H, Heather Ut, Bailey Reynolds, Chon with no last name, Connor Morgan, Kenneth Marks, Chon, C-H-O-N, I think.

Speaker 1:
[172:31] Oh, not Tron or Chong, nevermind.

Speaker 2:
[172:33] No, it could even be an auto correct. I don't know if I really wrote that.

Speaker 1:
[172:39] Who knows? Either way, sorry, Chon.

Speaker 2:
[172:42] Yeah, Kenneth Mark, Sarah Carlin-Sterns, Kimberly Bowman, Toaster Bath, sounds lovely, Esther Cruz, Ari with no last name, Jenna Gouli, Jenny B, Jasmine Montanez, Jason Gyan, Savannah Hill, Annie, Jesus.

Speaker 1:
[173:05] You're all off there on that one.

Speaker 2:
[173:07] Annie with no last name, Joanne Crossrow, Elise Miller, Henry Williams, Maggie May, Clara Absalanova, Dee with no last name, Diana Nguyen, Rich Coger, Ram 107, Megan Deshaun Runge, Runge, Rungey, Chris Sager, Glenn Scarbacca, Anne Marie McCormick, 124, Pomegranates. I don't know if that's an address or if they just don't do threes around there. Sean McGuire, Naomi S. Alexis Wah, Woff, Wogg, Justin Collins, Nina Allen, Ben with no last name, Christian with no last name, Justin McElroy, Kate R. Anthony Sheridan, Loose End. Oh, I got it. I see it there now. L-U-C-E, End, James.

Speaker 1:
[173:59] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[174:00] Teresa S. C-H, School, Sha, I don't know. Nocturne, Rich with no last name, Anne-Marie Hefty. That's a lot of Anne-Marie's. Has there been three?

Speaker 1:
[174:10] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[174:11] Keaton Ray, Ryre, Reeher.

Speaker 1:
[174:14] The most Anne-Marie's in all of podcasting we have.

Speaker 2:
[174:17] Anne-Marie. Yeah, like the, there's a song, there's a country song called Anne-Marie.

Speaker 1:
[174:22] I don't know it.

Speaker 2:
[174:22] You can Google it. Frankie McDonough, Zachary Moffat, A-E-V. Is that A-E-V or A-E-V? I don't know. Brighi Smalls, Trisha Olson, Jennifer Coleman Vargo, Ben Newsome, Tabitha with no last name, Melanie Deaton, Parker Manning, D-Dub, Chris Eagley, Ashley with no last name, Isabella Hall, Jeff with no last name, Chara with no last name, Garrett Albright, Liz Clark, George Stish, Samantha Hoffman, Krista Martin, Debbie Glazer, Matt Ramos, Kelly Gordon, Tyler Moore, Janann, Janann, Hostin, Matuse Benach. What is that? Matuse Benach is a name. Benachay, Ben Newsome. Was there a Ben Newsome already? I don't know. Colby Hoff, John Thomas, Gav with no last name, Emily Young, Elizabeth Brandon, Killian, Killian, Killian Hubbell, Hubbell, Chrissy Brown, Quinn Richins. Are you related? Kim Reese, Kwong Kwongt Farm Crew. Kwong? Kwongt Farm Crew.

Speaker 1:
[175:33] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[175:33] The Kwong Kwongt. All right.

Speaker 1:
[175:35] Say that 10 times.

Speaker 2:
[175:36] I can't say it one time. Craig Shushart, Jordan Butler, Drew Everts, Nicole Satka, Yasmeen White, Heavy Cream, The Fat Housewife. What does that mean? I don't even want to chance it. Nina with no last name. Gianna, Gianna Cephalis, Celeste Blythe-Bev with no last name. Melissa with no last name. Vicki Rose, Tim Endlich, Rachel with no last name. What is this? Rachel. All right. Elizabeth Peters. Stefani with no last name. That's probably Stephanie. Jaycock, Jaycock.

Speaker 1:
[176:15] Maybe.

Speaker 2:
[176:18] It's spelled like Glenn. I don't know. Jacoach, Jacoach. Joke, Jakeach. Frisch. Lori H. Denbina. Cheryl Cushing-Oman. Matt Marshall. Christina Croak. Austin Winokur. Karen Miller. Dominique D'Alessandro. D'Alessandro. Alaina Dick. That's with a Y. Audrey Baroque. Baroque. Baroque. Robert Bjorn. Hannah Crossland. Tracy Fisher. Darryl Baranowski. Nicole Winola. Her name is Joey Benefiel. Hope Gatto. Melvin Christ. And all of our patrons. You guys are the best.

Speaker 1:
[176:58] Thank you so much, everybody, for all that you do for us. Honestly, you guys are incredible. We can't do any of this without you. Honestly, we probably could, but it would be really pointless.

Speaker 2:
[177:07] I'm boring.

Speaker 1:
[177:08] We're boring, because we'd do it and then put it out and there'd be nobody to listen to it. It'd just be us talking about it. So, we'd be better off just talking on the phone at that point, rather than, you know, flying across the country to be in each other's presence to film all the time. That would be much easier. So, thank you for doing that. Thank you for hanging out with us. You want to follow us on social media. Shut up and give me murder.com as drop down menus. Take it wherever you need to go. Keep coming back week after week. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure.