transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Barbra Schulte is one of the most respected figures in the cutting horse world, a champion at the highest level, and someone riders turn to when they feel stuck or at a crossroads, because it's rarely an issue with the horse. In this episode, we talk about timing, position, keeping a steady mind, and what to do when things start to speed up. It's a conversation about learning, in a way that makes you want to go back and try again.

Speaker 2:
[00:37] Dear Horse World, it's Barbra Schulte.

Speaker 1:
[00:42] Barbra, welcome to the Dear Horse World Podcast.

Speaker 2:
[00:44] Thank you, Noëlle. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm really, really happy to be here.

Speaker 1:
[00:50] So, I'm really excited to dive in because we actually, I had an opportunity to get a lesson with you this morning.

Speaker 2:
[00:58] Yes, yes.

Speaker 1:
[01:00] And something that we were just talking about before we hit record was this idea of being conscious of how we teach. And I want you to share with everyone who's listening or watching, what you are conscious of that not maybe everyone who teaches students and we're going to dive into why you're conscious of it. But can you explain what you're thinking about when you're teaching somebody? And in our case, you were teaching, I got to cut y'all, I got to cut my first cow today in Weatherford, Texas.

Speaker 2:
[01:38] And she was awesome, awesome, like caught on right away, followed instruction. You did great. You did really, really great.

Speaker 1:
[01:46] Well, thank you. But I had two amazing teachers. Yes. Can you share with everyone, what goes through your mind when you're teaching someone in that type of environment? Because it was noticeable that your style is different.

Speaker 2:
[02:02] Well, what's really important to me is how I see things, is in terms of mechanics, and then in terms of the nervous system. I see everything through those lenses. And both of them have sequences. And when the sequences are out of order, like you get, someone gets too anxious or too overstimulated, or if someone's bored or something like that, that's under. And from a nervous system viewpoint, that's not ideal. So as a teacher, I'm always monitoring that. I'm always monitoring the mechanical instruction regarding that. I'm always looking at that, because in order for you to learn, it's important that you're in the parasympathetic nervous system. So there's that. And then there are the mechanics, and they also have sequences. And most importantly, there are very important fundamentals that the first level that you would have would be to under, like to really understand them and to know that it, the first thing is understanding is enough in itself, because if you don't understand what it is and why, then you won't be compelled to do it. We can't always do it, of course, immediately, just because we understand, but we at least know that it exists. And then, so if I explain, like we talked about your seat and your balance, and there were a number of things that I really didn't get a chance, because there were two of us teaching. Lindy was awesome, absolutely awesome. But then, when it comes to working, we worked a mechanical device first, and there's position, like in other words, like the flag is here, and the horse is here. You know, how do you do that? Like, what is that exactly, and how do you get there? That's a very important fundamental. And another fundamental is how you use your seat to go with the motion, and then to stop, and then the horse is supposed to stay relatively parallel and be really still. And then the cow or the flag goes first, and then the horse turns. So for you to understand that position without first, without understanding what you're supposed to do as a rider is important. And then understanding how you, that you use your feet on the straightaway, use your seat to stop. And as the horse turns, your eye, the cow turns and the horse turns. It's the horse's job to turn and your job to sit deep, keep your eye on the cow. And the horse takes you through the turn and then you use your feet. So from a teaching standpoint, those things, and that sounds like a lot of things, and it is a lot of things, but each one has such a fundamental element to it that it's really important to me to know that you understood that, at least theoretically, not that you could always do it, but that you understood it theoretically. And so in answer to your question, the layers are identifying the fundamentals and teaching someone how to do those, and then helping you see that each one of those is kind of its own thing. So you don't just lump something all together and you're just going back and forth. You know that it really makes sense. And then to help you like find it and then maybe add a little speed to do a little bit of, bring your energy up in the nervous system, but you can't go too far, right? Cause then you lose confidence and then just build it. And that's what we did and on the fly. And then do them within the context of you also understanding about the nervous system, what you do before you ever started. And that's awesome. But as a teacher, that's really important. It's the same thing in writing. And because of my background, I've been doing this for 35 years. And I see the nervous system state. It's like, if that's not just like nicely engaged, nicely have good attention, some energy up, but not too far. If that's not there, then I'm going to do something to go back to that, is to help people feel comfortable and willing to engage in whatever we're doing.

Speaker 1:
[06:51] So before we dive into your background, because I'm really excited to go there and to explain why it's so important performance mindset and understanding the way we train ourselves, not just focusing on the way we train our horses. If I had, if you had started to see that I would move from, because it's a, there's a fine line, right? We, I don't want to be in parasympathetic while I'm riding because then I'm like really relaxed and I'm in rest and digest. And I'm not resting, I'm riding. But you don't want to be in the sympathetic where you're in fight or flight. There's a fine line, right? Where you're active and you're like engaged and alert, but then you're also able to think. What would you have done if you saw me teeter? Because, and I want everyone to know, like Barbra was really good at reminding me to breathe. And she's really reminding me to ground in my, in my pelvis and in my seat and melt. I love that, melt into the saddle, like melt into shorty. What would you have done if you saw that I was transitioning from an alert, open place where I have access to my mind and I'm like sort of engaged in the situation to maybe more nervous and maybe shorter breaths, or maybe I looked overwhelmed, or maybe I was the moment and the opportunity of what we did this morning was maybe getting the better of me. What would you have done in that situation?

Speaker 2:
[08:25] Hopefully, I would have noticed that you were doing that before you got too far. Okay. And the way that I think of the nervous system is that there is a state that's more, if you will, in the parasympathetic, because you feel slow on the inside, but you're still very alert and very aroused and have tremendous energy and clarity, but you're not ahead of it, or you're not nervous. So I think a really great instructor and horse trainer notices just the beginning of when that's starting to go too far, because there's a place that's just right, where you have attention, and which is great focus, and you're all about it, but again, you're not ahead of it, and you're not hyper aroused, and your mind's not going, is this right, is this wrong? Like all of that, right, you're not hyper aroused. And that state is not a, it's a very dynamic state, and it's very fragile. So it's very normal to go kind of in and out, but in answer to your question, what would I do is then I would slow it down. It's always about slowing down the movements, and going back, the movements. The movements have sequences and speeds. And so in order to, like are typically what happens if somebody is going out into the Mars, is that something's going fast, like super fast, or they feel like they don't know, like I don't know what to do. So they just start doing something and they, and the rhythm is off. Maybe I would take the flag and just stop and draw. Have you take a breath. And I would just say, okay, just go with the flag and get in that position and sit and stop and draw. And then I just keep doing that until you could find that. And then I would turn this flag slowly. And a couple of times, I, in order to keep you, and it's not just you, it's anybody that first starts to do that. You have an inclination that you want to lift your hand. And you also want to help the horse through the turn, but with your leg. And those are all just symptoms of, you're not sure what to do, so you're like doing something. And it seems intuitive to do that, but it's not accurate. So I would just have before you turned, I would just say, okay, Noelle, I want you to feel your seat, get into the position, eyes on the cow. And when the flag turns, I want you to put a little more pressure on your seat as your eyes watch the cow, watch the flag. And so I would just back it up, which is what you need to learn the skill, because you're installing new skills. You don't have those skills. You have great writing skills, beautiful writing skills, but you didn't have cutting skills installed. So the installation of any new unknown skill is sequential, and it is slow, slow mind, slower movement. And many times it's so easy for students and teachers both to not allow the time that it takes in those slow movements to really feel it, to really understand it. And then, of course, it takes practice. So that's the answer to the question. And I would have explained what I was doing, like, and why I was doing it. And just I would have encouraged you because you were doing great, you know, like you're doing great. And I mean, it was the first time you ever did it. It was amazing.

Speaker 1:
[12:41] Now, what do you think from a neurological point of view, from a neuroscience point of view, what happens when you, because I remember how it felt in my body, when you get that positive reinforcement from someone, right? So when you were saying, you're doing great, I remember I would actually relax like a one or 2 percent more.

Speaker 2:
[13:02] That's a dopamine hit. Right. That's a dopamine hit. And what we want to do is go from that, like not that anything's perfect, but ideal state of that wonderful attentiveness and arousal, engagement. I love that. I use the words focus and engagement a lot. And it's like an, it's an openness and a willingness. And in your mind is coaching you or coaching us to, okay, you know, like a little checklist, I gotta get my C, I eyes. And so the way we learn best and the way we perform best and the way we gain our confidence is a wave. So it's like having that arousal and having that attentiveness and then increasing it just to the place where you're a little uncomfortable, a little uncomfortable, but not too uncomfortable because then, you know, I started going really fast with the flag, you know, of course, that's obvious. You have lost your confidence. But, you know, you want to get to the place where you're a little uncomfortable. But then when it's like you're there and you did it well, then immediately compliment or immediately release pressure for the horse, so that you get the dopamine hit, you know, you get the hit. And that is a cycle that if repeated consciously and skillfully, which like everything we're all learning, is the key to teaching and training. But it's also, this is what I just learned recently, it's also the key to learning. And when we have instructors, it's kind of going down a different road, but when we have instructors and they are maybe going too fast or whatever, that we know that later we can deconstruct a skill and say, okay, I want to go back and think about that position. I want to take some notes, I want to write it down, and I want to make sure that I understand where I was supposed to go. And then what I did when I got there like be still, get down on your seat, look at the cow, you know, the flag or the cow goes first. And write it down and get the sequences and feel it and review it and watch videos. So there's so many things that we can do as learners that we think we kind of leave it all to our instructors. I mean, we might think about it, but it's it's a tremendously effective in knowing that we are the ones that can actually help ourselves learn in the most ideal way.

Speaker 1:
[16:05] So you're saying that positive reinforcement is actually something that's really important for people to learn, just like with horses, that actually when someone when your teacher is giving you positive feedback, that that's an important component to your learning.

Speaker 2:
[16:21] Absolutely. Because those are the patterns that we want to repeat. I mean, that says yes. And what happens is as you learn, those skills are not consistent. So if we think, oh, okay, we got that a couple of times, got to go on to the next thing, then that's ineffective learning. It takes a while of conditioning and repetition of the patterns. Like in Daniel Coyle's book, he talks about like the way that he coached the great artists and athletes is he broke things into chunks. And then you always start at the beginning and you repeat the things you know and you consciously get to the place where you don't know. And then that is the place that always you get so curious about. You know, I like, I really want to know that. But you never disregard what you know. And it's so easy to get in our heads and we think we're not enough or not, yeah, good enough or we should know that. Okay, Barb showed me the position on the flag, so I should really have that by now. Well, I showed it to you one time and you might have done it one time. I'm just talking about instructing anyone using that example. It just takes repetition plus you're trying to learn that and the turn and the use of your legs and all of those things simultaneously. So to break it down and to really know, understand the sequence and memorize the sequence and go over it and over it like what it felt like when you went down and your eyes were looking and the flag turned or the cow turned and your horse just went like that. Yeah, like that effortlessly. You want to remember that and those are things that we can do for ourselves. But if we think that what a teacher says, oh, that was good is just that they're being kind or something, or it doesn't really matter, but yeah, but look at all the stuff that I don't do well, that's we actually interfere with our learning. When we have the knowing that how all of this works and that any of us can learn anything, I mean, there's no, it's like anything that you learn is really hard until you learn it. And then it's like you feel like it's falling off a log. That's just the learning process. And there's always the next thing that you're gonna be learning. And so, to help ourselves without all the judgment, all that stuff, and to get the meat from an instructor's instruction. And of course, you're grateful for their compliments and all that, but what our job is, is to get the information and to get the feel and to help ourselves install it. And as a teacher, I want to really be able to see and help a student acknowledge and learn about how to learn and stay focused on the pattern or sequences.

Speaker 1:
[19:38] So do you think it's really imperative that riders understand how they learn so that they can implement that into their daily training?

Speaker 2:
[19:50] Absolutely, absolutely. Because what happens in the learning process is that when you're, it's called installing, when you install a new skill, it's what the learner can do, is they can make sure that they put it into pieces, you know, like they sequence it. Because sometimes it's not always really easy, like how someone uses their hands, you know, like when what hand goes when and you know, where, but not to make it overly complicated, but that the more that the learner attempts to get the sequences and then memorize the sequences, because a lot of things, let's just say like turning the cutting turn when, before you went in there, like doing some 180 degree turns. Yes. That's a very specific sequence that has, you know, four or five steps, including how you use your seat, how you use your hands, how you feel the horse, where you put your eyes, then how you initiate the turn, what one rein does, what the other rein does. And just to understand that and just memorize it. You know, so that you, so you're not wanting to get to the next things too quick. I mean, we didn't work on any of that this morning, but it could be for anything like that. And then you get the movements, you know, like let's just talk about you using your seat and the stop and turn. So you drop, she did a great job. You know, you dropped your, you talked about your belly button to your spine, and you're looking at the flag or the cow, full, you know, full 90 degree look as you're feeling your seat. And then the consciousness to press a little bit as the horse turns is like, stabilizes the horse's hind quarters and stabilizes your upper body and your leg, so your leg doesn't start kicking on the other side without meaning to. And then knowing when you get to do the turn, now you're going to use both legs or whatever leg you need. That's a sequence. And like riders can help themselves when they get really clear about what that sequence is. And sometimes they might have to study a video. Hopefully, they have an instructor that can help them. And so that's the installing part. And then you get a learning plan. Like if you were going to come and ride every day, cutting probably would be some flag work with specifics and then cattle work. And then you kind of get to where you're thinking, oh, I'm starting to get this now. I feel it part of the time. I'm feeling it more and more. Then you strengthen it. And then that whole process, it takes a long time. That's kind of the messy middle where sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. And there's no shortcut to that. And that's where I think it's easy to get discouraged because we think we should have this by now. And then you get 10 more instructions about something else and then you don't get grounded in it. So the work between the lessons, I think, is huge. And then there's another level of refinement where now you're getting it a lot, but you want to get to a world-class level. And then you get feedback and polishing and watching videos and, oh, you can watch videos the whole time.

Speaker 1:
[23:55] I love that explanation that when you're learning a skill, it's really about breaking it down, understanding its fundamentals. And this is universal of all different types of horsemanship. Absolutely. This is really exciting to break this down. So when you learn a new skill, like I did this morning, so you're really trying to, one, as a learner, your responsibility is to really focus on the fundamentals, understand why it is that you're doing what you're doing. And then to build good memory of sequences in which you felt that, where you've got that positive reinforcement, where you've got that dopamine hit, where you were like, yes, just like that. Then you work on that, and as you progress through the beginning, the beginner stage, then you get into what you call the messy middle, where it's really about, and that's where you talk about, that's where it's hardest for people because they get quite discouraged. Because one, it's probably different for each person, how short or how big or how small that messy middle is going to be for that particular skill acquisition, right?

Speaker 2:
[25:00] Yes, and maybe what their horse needs, and how they relate to their instructor. If you go take a lesson from somebody and you think, I just can't wait to go take, I could be with this person, and do you feel supported there, and you feel that you're going to get good instruction, you're going to get the truth, and there's no judgment about the truth. I mean, you can be vulnerable, learning is very vulnerable, you can be very vulnerable in learning, and then it just feels good in what you were just saying. But if you have, if for some reason, there's some kind of resistance with a person, an instructor, or you allow yourself to get distracted by who else is at the barn, who's watching you, that you might feel is critical, and so you're not really all present. Or maybe your horse is green, and a little bit too green for where you're, for the ideal horse for you to learn. Then those are all things that can make the messy middle messy. Or messy-er, let's just say messy-er. And then it's just to know that that's part of the process, and you sort each thing out, and a couple of them are easier than others, even though it's harder with being concerned about what other people think. And so there's actually tools and strategies that you can use that can make that, if you learn, focus, you can help that be over there and come back really to yourself. And in the middle of all this is the nervous system state. Because when someone, this is what I spent so much time doing, in the middle of all that, you learn how you're engaged with it. And if you're over stimulated, over aroused, or you're not focused, for whatever reason, it'd be nervous, whatever. Not that it doesn't matter, but you're just like, you feel out of your body, feel tight, your stomach feels tight, all of that. To learn how to be aware and have tools to bring it back. And the more you keep being aware and bringing it back, being aware, bring it back, it becomes something that you can do in moments. And then you, to me, because of all the training I've had in life, experience I've had in showing, and that's the underbelly. Because the quality of what you do is tainted or taint and impacted by either being over aroused or being numb or lack of being too tired or don't care or unmotivated. You know, it goes both ways. So it's finding that sweet spot there. And that's like, these are the things that we can do for ourselves. That, you know, if they're just so important and understanding about learning, I think those are the nervous system are in the clarity of the information and what we can do between lessons are huge in skills that we can develop that make the riding journey more clear, more efficient, more effective. You still can't take, there's no shortcuts, but it makes it, you don't have to go through unnecessary garbage, not garbage, but distraction.

Speaker 1:
[28:57] Yeah. Well, so, because I want to dive into the nervous system and why. But first, but I want to just then go through, because I think that was really fascinating to hear from your perspective. Skill acquisition is really about, so you have the beginner stage where really you're creating, you're really trying to understand sequence, and then you have the messy middle where you're trying to basically, and you tell me if I'm right here, in the messy middle, you're taking memory, which is in your mind, and you're trying to make it like muscle memory. You're trying to almost inform your body, right? Because a skill you learn mentally first and then physically second, right?

Speaker 2:
[29:36] Yes. But I've been taught by a woman named Dr. Stephanie Burns, who's an adult learning specialist, that there's that muscle memory is not an accurate term.

Speaker 1:
[29:47] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[29:48] I mean, it is a term, I think, that everyone thinks that it is, you can use something without thinking.

Speaker 1:
[29:56] Right.

Speaker 2:
[29:58] And so that part of it is fine, but it's not really in the muscles.

Speaker 1:
[30:05] Where is it?

Speaker 2:
[30:06] It's in the neurological pathways.

Speaker 1:
[30:08] Cool.

Speaker 2:
[30:09] And that's why visualization can impact the learning process also. In the book, The Talent Code talks about myelin sheaths. Like every time you will feel the experience in your body, it's a nervous system thing with your brain. And every time it's repeated, that's why it's so important to have the repetitions and to acknowledge the repetitions of the good stuff. That myelin sheath gets thicker, and the thicker it gets, then it's like this super highway between our brain and our body. And so in visualization is not as effective as real life practice in impacting those myelin sheaths. Now, I'm a lay person, I'm a neurological science person, but I do have some background in a very, I'm a very practical thinker, like I have to do things that make sense to me. But that myelin sheath is what makes it consistent. So it's not really technically muscle memory.

Speaker 1:
[31:20] It's myelin sheath, it's neuropathways.

Speaker 2:
[31:23] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[31:25] So once you get through the messy middle, you get rewarded by you get to be in the stage of refinement, where the changes you're making are on a much smaller, more microscopic level. And as you then go through that, you might be one of the lucky few that get to be in the stage of mastery, right? What advice do you have for people who are listening to this podcast or watching this podcast right now, who are in the messy middle, and they're maybe having a really tough time with it mentally, and they're thinking maybe the negative, maybe that negative self-talk has started to kick in. What advice would you have for them?

Speaker 2:
[31:59] That it's just so important for them to know that there's nothing wrong with them. They don't lack what it takes. They just are missing some ingredients. They're just missing some, perhaps they're missing some ingredients. Like if there is a place where someone's been told something for years and years, you know, and they just like feel like they can't get it. Then to figure out with whatever mentor or whatever process they use and to back up. Because just think about on the flag today, you're getting into position, past the flag a little bit, was because you had to accelerate before you ever got there to get there.

Speaker 1:
[32:50] Right.

Speaker 2:
[32:51] Okay. So it's not about if you weren't in the right position on the flag, it's not the place to start. I mean, it's awareness that that's where you want to go. But the process is how you use your legs and how much pressure you would use on that horse to accelerate and get past the flag. Right. So often, they maybe haven't had good instruction. So often, the horses are not, they're mismatched. Not that you can't learn. I'm not judging anyone for anything. I'm just saying that sometimes a horse is really can be really a helpful teacher.

Speaker 1:
[33:33] Oh, gosh.

Speaker 2:
[33:33] Well, they teach anyway, whatever they're teaching. They just need to know that there's nothing wrong with them. And it's not just the way that it is. It's not that there's, I mean, because that's the voice. And here's the thing about our brain. Our brain gets all these messages for years, from the time that we were kids through maybe a high school teacher or our peers, or, you know, like, you know, you're just not very talented. You can't ride very well. You should have done this by now. And so they get, that gets, our brain says, I don't really care if these are the messages you say are okay, or if this is what you've been hearing. I'm just going to pop these up all the time. Well, there's no way really to get, I can't do surgery and take those out, but they're there, but we can replace them. So I just think that there's some work to do of finding good instruction, the sequencing, understanding their horse, what their horse needs, like where, like maybe the horse has these patterns that they're doing, that at this point in their horsemanship, they don't really know how to untangle all that. Yeah. To get, to ride with, like to be picky, picky, picky about who you ride with.

Speaker 1:
[35:04] I like that advice. Because as you were speaking, I was thinking I could name first and last name, people who have given me, have said not nice things to me. I can like recall it like that, right? And I still think about it. And when I'm deep in negative self-talk, those people might pop up in my mind. And I've been doing this a while. Like, you know, this is a small selection of people. I've been lucky. I'm lucky to say that there's not a big, a large group of people, but man, did they make an impact on me. And I have been so victim of negative self-talk. And so, it brings me to a question. For a lot of people that you work with, are you working with negative self-talk more, or are you working with an activated, like, nervous system? And what happens?

Speaker 2:
[35:59] I think it's understanding how they work together. I think it's really, you know, that's another part of learning. I mean, most, I mean, more and more, I think trainers are talking about the nervous system, and so that that's good. But many, many of them haven't had training in that to help. So for me, let's just say, if you're going to ride with me a lot, I would do, I would, as part of the lesson, educate you about just sensing how you feel and the ability to relax and feel the movement of your course. And I would do some basic instruction about that, and that I was going to do my best to help you to feel, I use the word grounded. I like to make things like as simple as I can, and to, for this part of your body, that, you know, that how it works with some of the biomechanics of riding, but not real, not real complex, but just to have you feel that you understand how the body works with the nervous system and how it works for riding. And then I'd have you understand that your brain has, I call them pop-up thoughts.

Speaker 1:
[37:20] Yes, all the time.

Speaker 2:
[37:21] And that our job is to be aware of those thoughts, and that when we feel bad, like feel nervous or diminished, embarrassed, you know, any of those kinds of things, that it's a clue to check in and, you know, like, just, well, first of all, we just feel it in our bodies, you know, and then we can just check in with our minds. And even if we can't identify it, you can say, okay, Barb, take a breath, step over here, okay, this is, okay, what's your job? So to have tools, mental tools, questions to add, simple questions, like, what's my job? So that's why the clarity of the sequence is so important. What do I have control of? That's a great one. If you make an error, no problem, so that you can, like, not ride around the ring 10 times, still replaying that error and feeling embarrassed and all that, having very clear mental tools, knowing that we are training our minds to serve our body and our nervous system. So that is what we are, that is what I would train, is to help someone learn. And then learning, another tool is to have a script, so that you would, so like, I just use the flag analogy. And so for your viewers or listeners, just imagine Noëlle going parallel on this blue rone gelding with the flag and her, she's supposed to have her knee in front of the flag. The flag is probably two feet by a foot, on a string going back and forth. And you might be watching the flag going, okay, get past the flag, get past a little bit, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. Exhale, be still. Okay, push the turn. And I, as an instructor, could do it slow enough. I could help you with the script.

Speaker 1:
[39:41] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[39:41] And then I could do it slow enough so you could do the script. And so this whole idea of having a mantra, having a script, that you're coaching yourself, it's so that you're coaching yourself on two things. One is technique. The other one is nervous system. And so you become your own best coach. And that's how I would have, I couldn't really say brain or nervous system. I would educate how they work together. And how they can be trained. Because the nervous system could be trained to come back to where you want it to be in a moment. You can train regulation. We can train our horse to do the same.

Speaker 1:
[40:33] What advice, and I'm going to ask you this, because I have snowballed many times, I call it snowballing, where like one negative thought feeds another negative thought, feeds another negative thought. And then quickly, your confidence and self-worth is like about this big. And you're then activated, not in a positive way. You're in a sort of fight or flight. I can think of, and I was sharing this with you at dinner last night, like how much I struggled psychologically from a sports side of things, competing as a young rider. And there were no skills. There were, well, I certainly wasn't ever exposed to the skills. And so a lot, I think a lot of people in the horse world really suffer in silence.

Speaker 2:
[41:16] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[41:17] With no tools to address that snowball effect that happens, especially when you're in a high pressure situation, right? So let's say you're at a clinic and it's not going well, and the negative self-talk starts. And maybe someone says something that also then reinforces the negative self-talk. What is something that someone can do today that might empower them just a little bit more to not feel? Because I could describe so viscerally what that feels like. Like you feel like this energy takes over your body, and you just feel completely disempowered, and you want to like run away, or you want to just hide, or you literally, like you're just sitting there going, you can't quite, it's like kind of like, you feel like you're sinking into, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[42:16] You're about to make me cry. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1:
[42:20] And I know that I'm not alone in that feeling.

Speaker 2:
[42:23] No, we all feel, we all experience that. The answer, I'm gonna answer the question with, I'm gonna give you some tools in a moment to do at the, at the, in the moment. But I want to talk about work that I think is just, I love this, I love this, is this working on ourselves about really knowing that we are, each of us is an extraordinary person. I mean, we don't have to earn that. We don't, and that is not something that is, should be dependent. Our knowing is not dependent on other people telling us that. It is, it comes really from within. And it comes from following what's important to us, which is our passion. And very importantly, like why we do something. So someone going to a clinic is going there to learn. They're not going there to have someone validate that they're a good person or a good writer, even though I understand that that is how our culture is. But, but working on themselves to really know, you know, what they really love and why they do it. And the reason that they do it, the reason that they're at the clinic is to learn. So and that also, I love this line, Dr. Burns said this, there is no failure in learning.

Speaker 1:
[44:07] Okay, before we get back into the conversation, I want to share something that has genuinely changed the way I feed my horses. One of my horses, Lady, who I talk a lot about on this podcast and who some of you know, is a sassy Appaloosa and a notoriously picky eater. She does not like feed with a lot of fillers or chemicals. She is sensitive in every way, including her skin, which has always made feeding her a careful process. She lets me know quickly when something does not agree with her. Finding a feed that she could eat consistently and that supports her overall well-being has mattered more to me than anything else. Total Equine by Total Feeds has been that feed. When I first tried Total Equine, I was super skeptical. It looks more like kibble than pellets, and I judged the look of it right away. Also, it's affordable. And as someone who's grown up deep in the competitive world of show jumping, I immediately interpret quality with price. Nothing in the horse world can be both good quality and affordable, right?

Speaker 2:
[45:20] Well, wrong.

Speaker 1:
[45:23] My horses have never looked better, and they love it. Thanks to important trace minerals like copper, zinc and selenium, Lady's digestion is steadier than ever. Her weight is great, her coat quality improved measurably, and her top line has stayed intact, even with time off after our epic road trip across the country. That alone would have been enough to earn my trust, but that trust was tested in a big way when we took Lady and Galano across the country. Traveling over 25,000 miles with your horses demands consistency and nutritional integrity to balance the stress and demands of the road. Having a feed I could rely on no matter what made a huge difference. Total Equine kept both my horses nourished and settled through long hauls, new environments, and constant change. They are one of the only horse feeds in the industry to use Norwegian kelp, providing essential iodine, minerals, prebiotics, and thyroid support. I cannot say enough good things about Total Equine by Total Feeds. Developed by Dr. Harry Anderson, who I now consider a friend and ally in the fight for good horse care. In this time of inflated prices and impossible economics in the horse world. I am careful about what I recommend, especially when it comes to nutrition. I've never spoken publicly about horse feed before, and I am proud to speak up now. Total Feeds has earned its place in my barn because it supports my horses in a way that is noticeable, measurable, and reliable. If you want to learn more about their approach to feeding, visit totalfeeds.com or pick up a bag at your local tractor supply.

Speaker 2:
[47:19] So and that also I love this line, Dr. Burns said this, there is no failure in learning. There is no failure when you're learning. There's no failure because we're doing the best we can. And so then understanding that when these feelings come up, because it's probably not just at a clinic, it might be at a cocktail party, it might be with people going out to dinner with, that you tell yourself that you will maybe, written in your journal, that you're enough, and that you will always be enough, and things are never always gonna be like this. It's not like some kind of place that you get to and like there's nothing else to do. And so then knowing those things and having those things installed and having a natural desire to look for the good in things, so it's a whole mindset that is not only getting rid of, so to speak, those feelings of not being enough and feeling diminished and feeling ashamed and feeling like you're so anxious, like it's not just getting rid of that, it's installing, if you will, a whole new mindset that you're enough and that you have a plan and you're doing it because you love it and your journey is yours, that nobody knows your story, your horse's story, where you are, what, you know, exactly, and that you, when you come, I call it coming home to your heart, when you keep coming back to that, you've installed it so much that you have this tremendous confidence in belief in your own uniqueness, in your own ability to do whatever you want to do, that any bump in the road or when these feelings come up, you come back to that. So you're not trying to get rid of stuff as much as coming back to your kind of that grounding. And then, if we go back to the clinic, depending upon-

Speaker 1:
[49:45] Or the horse show. I know there are happened a lot of horse shows for me.

Speaker 2:
[49:49] Yeah. See, a lot of the preparation for horse shows really happens at home. Visualization. The first time I ever made the Futurity, which is our Kentucky Derby finals as a professional, I had been training at the Human Performance Institute, and I learned about really effective visualization. And I did it twice a day. And I rode in Will Rogers, a Coliseum in Fort Worth there, twice a day. You know, I could smell the smells. I could feel myself get anxious and then like come down. I could see the cattle come in. I could do all those kinds of things. And I just did that so much that when I was in, I could even think right now of being in the Coliseum and starting to feel butterflies in my stomach. But then I'd say to myself, okay, Barb, come back, baby. You're like going on the ceiling on me. You're like leaving. Come on back. You're okay. You've prepared for this. You've done this. So I think it's what we say to ourselves. It's stopping the runaway train that's stating things that are not true. And then it's replacing it with thoughts that are true. Like you're okay. You're safe. You're safe within. Start breathing. Focus on what they're saying. If you don't, you know, like maybe if you didn't understand something that you ask for clarification or whatever. And just do your best. And that you're at the end of the day, that you're going to take away your learnings and you're going to write them down or whatever. And you can practice and that nothing, that you're not going to allow anything to diminish your spirit. Nothing on the outside, nothing people say, nothing, including our own thoughts that pop up. It's like, that's not true. You know, telling ourselves, that's not true.

Speaker 1:
[52:03] Yeah. What you talk about, I mean, self-worth work is important work. And as you were speaking, I was like, yeah, that's, I think self-worth is like ground zero.

Speaker 2:
[52:17] Absolutely. And it's allowing, here's the thing, here's what happens that I think is really helpful. It's allowing other people to be who they are too. You know, we start telling ourselves all these stories. Well, you know, she doesn't like my horse, she doesn't think I ride well, that clinician doesn't like me, to spend more time with that, or, you know, like these comparisons to other people. And to me, when I hear myself say that, I just go, stop. You're just like everybody, awesome. Do Barb, be Barb, be true to yourself, and allow those people to be who they are, because I'm the only one that can allow them to, by letting whatever I'm making up in my head, or they say, or whatever, to diminish my heart. And so I just, I might not want to hang with them, but I'm just going to allow, I'm not going to judge them. I'm just going to allow them to be, and I'm going to be with my people. I'm going to be with the people that I, in my, in a clinic, and you can't go by yourself, it might be your horse.

Speaker 1:
[53:34] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[53:35] You know?

Speaker 1:
[53:35] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[53:37] That I am worthy, and I am not going to get in some kind of retribution or, you know, like the judgmental thing with them, or, you know, I'm not going to give away my power. I've got my own work to do. I'm here to learn, and I'm here to thrive. Get it together, Barb. Pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Get some courage and go back in there, and just do your best and breathe and listen. And like, instead of battling, like, what was the clinician telling me? Or what are they telling? He or she telling other people. And then start focusing, like, what's my job here? Hey, I need to get my nervous system. I need to breathe. I need to talk to myself kindly. Here's something else I recently learned, was you often hear about the negative voices that speak to yourself like you would a good friend. Like, that I also just heard this one, to talk to yourself like you would a young child.

Speaker 1:
[54:51] Or your own inner child.

Speaker 2:
[54:53] Right.

Speaker 1:
[54:54] It's really powerful what you're talking about. And something that really stood out to me in that amazing breakdown of how we can address our own negative self-talk. And I do really want to talk about the fear of judgment and the fear of what others think of us, because I think it's an epidemic in the horse world. Is when you said do barb, I realized that that is something I have never said to myself. And no one has ever suggested that I say that to myself. And when we are constantly comparing ourselves to others, then we're trying to be someone that we're not. Because I'm not you, I'm not Tic, I'm not Lindy, I'm not, you know, these are, I'm not capable of being anyone but myself. And what an empowering invitation to each and every one of us to say, no, no, no, don't be that person, be, you know, do Barb, do Noelle. And as you said that, I had like a very visceral, very like somatic experience because I was thinking, wow, that's such an empowering thing to say to yourself, to ground yourself in, I am who I am, and I'm going to do things the way that I do them because I'm a unique and special individual. But that shift is so important because a lot of what happens in the horse world is, hey, do it like this, do it like I've told you, do it as I'm telling you. There's a lot of mimicry and there's a lot of monkey see, monkey do. I think it's such an empowering call to action that you're offering us.

Speaker 2:
[56:43] Well, I think it's yes, and I think it's like do Barb or do Noelle. It's not in a competitive way with anybody else, and it's a huge allowing me to be vulnerable and to learn and to know that doing Barb is a work in progress. We're all works in progress. And that the only one that when we do ourselves, we're the ones that make the judgment about what we do, like what we choose. And also a great way to know that is by, is there like in your body, is there like this sense of relief or peace or, and you can still do that thing where, I'm pretty comfortable here, I'm gonna stretch a little bit, like maybe at the clinic, it's stretching to go back into the arena for your next ride. But what you do is in between times, you're really working to say, I would be working, say, if I was working on myself, okay, Barg, you're okay. You know, this stuff that you're talk, you know, this place you've gotten yourself into, you're okay. What is your job? What can you do this next time? You don't have to be perfect. It's not about perfection. You're here to learn. And maybe you learn what you don't want to do. Or maybe, you know, you learn like, because maybe one thing that was like a light bulb that went off is like, that was worth the clinic. It's not in comparison. It's your own journey. And our jobs are to please ourselves. Our job is to challenge ourselves. Our job is to encourage ourselves. Our job is to believe in ourselves. Just like when we were talking about learning, and maybe someone at the clinic, obviously, they went there to learn. They might not have any idea that maybe this clinician and the people there isn't a great match, but there still might be something there to learn. Yeah. And to be constantly looking for jewels and resources instead of what's wrong with things, and that this is your own work, and it's what brings us peace and confidence and all kinds of things. Confidence isn't something that is earned by being able to do things well and right. Confidence is something that is, to me, is a belief in ourselves, in our process, and never turning against ourselves on the journey. And as we go making better and better choices about what we do, and then owning them for better or for worse, it doesn't have to be perfect. It's not about that.

Speaker 1:
[60:28] Why do you think we worry so much about what other people think about us?

Speaker 2:
[60:34] Because our number one human desire beyond food and water and shelter and being cool or being hot, whatever it is, is connection. We love, all of us love a genuine, authentic relationship with our spouse, with our boyfriend, with friends, with, I mean, it just feels so good that we're not alone in this world, you know, that there's someone who loves us and cares for us. And then, if we add to it all the reasons why, which usually come down to criticisms of ourselves, that's what's wrong with us, and then we unload and blame on other people, then it just sets in a spiral of very toxic, very debilitating emotions, thoughts, disempowering, shaming kinds of things. And then, if we allow that to be a pattern, but that's the reason that it's so painful. And that's why we worry about what other people think, because we think that what they think empowers us. But if you go back to what I was saying about your passion, your purpose, what's important to you, do you, those kinds of things, then, and not being judgmental for us, not being judgmental of other people, that's a huge, that was or is a huge one for me. Like usually when I feel judgmental of other people, that doesn't make me feel good.

Speaker 1:
[63:04] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[63:04] Doesn't mean I don't set boundaries and that sort of thing. But if I just say, people can do what they want to do, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna keep checking in with my choices and I'm going to really enrich my world of the people and the relationships and the horses and the spiritual practices, whatever it is, that are, empower me. And I'm going to focus there. I'm going to make that rich and abundant and I'm going to allow all that. And the more we do that and don't get in this debate and blame, then that empowers us.

Speaker 1:
[63:50] I'm really glad you brought up the process of judgment because, okay, I'm going to break down. I've not actually done that. I'm going to do this in real time. So, on this road trip that we're on and have been on, we have been, sometimes, we've been drawn in, we've been thrust into all sorts of different environments. And there are many times in which I have felt judged, or I have felt less than, or I have felt like that negative self-talk has taken place. And often in these moments of deep vulnerability, I might be throwing myself into a completely new environment where I'm learning something completely new. Or I might have made a mistake that affected somebody else and that person got really, really upset, you know, in terms of like being late or, I don't know, or like, you know, things like, things that inconvenienced other people. And I notice a process that I think might be true of many people and I'm interested in what you think. So when I feel like I've made a mistake or that I'm either in a place of vulnerability or that I'm being judged, I notice that the negative self-talk might take place. And then instead of, if I don't have the tools to counterbalance that negative self-talk, which then feeds into self-worth, I then rebound. It's like I want to reallocate that energy. And then I judge that person. And I build a narrative around how it's like, you know, it's like the best defense is a good offense. And I then start to judge them. And I start to think of why they...

Speaker 2:
[65:31] Blame them. Right.

Speaker 1:
[65:34] And I wonder, because I know that judgment is something that people, a lot of people in the horse world experience. It's something that I'm guilty of. And I know that I have been judged much in my life also. And it's something that I feel really disconnects us. And so it almost like reinforces the disconnection which is the very thing that like is the very opposite or the antithesis of what we're trying to achieve for many of us to do what we're doing. And I was like, as you're talking, I'm sitting there going, wow, I'm practicing judgment. What a beautiful opportunity that when you start to feel the negative self-talk take, start to kick in, when you start to feel as though the negative self-talk is starting to erode into your self-worth, that to observe, like you said, to observe the internal process within you, that before you start to judge others and start to inflict the very thing that has caused you pain, it's like you get to nullify it within, like you get to almost like, what's the word, you get to like neutralize it. You get to neutralize the process and not participate in the very thing that is causing you pain. Is that true?

Speaker 2:
[66:48] Yes, absolutely. So, yes, that's the first answer, okay? Yes. I think about it as, when the example you used was if you were late or something happened or just something weird happened, and somebody else gets upset and you feel judged. The way that I handle that is that I try to sort through what I did that I could see could cause someone to be upset, and that I want to learn from it, and I'm going to pay more attention to, just recently, something happened with our website, we're redoing our website, and I feel like as the leader of our business, that I wasn't clear with whatever, with the people and their jobs, okay? So my thought was, okay, Barb, you need to do that. So I think the first thing is ownership, or maybe there's not. Maybe they just, someone just didn't know, and not everybody loves me, right? Not everybody loves everybody. I mean, everybody is who we are, and so I sort that through. That's the first thing, and I help myself know that I'm human, and I make mistakes, and that I'm learning, and then if an apology or something is warranted to own it, but then to allow the other person to have their reaction, that I can't really control that. But if I've done my work of owning and apologizing and doing my best to let it go, that I really can't control that other person. So that's one piece. The other thing is that in the scheme of quote-unquote negative emotions, that this is one of my favorite things I studied at the Human Performance Institute. That neurological state that is like, you know, things are fun, that you're ready, you're like, oh, you feel good, you're paying attention. You're just, you know, you've done everything you can do, all of that. That's the bullseye, okay? In a target, this visualizes, that's a bullseye, okay? The negative emotions take us out of that, because that's a highly positive, focused, clear, engaged, happy, you know, pleasant, you know, like you're, it just feels good, and sometimes you rest from it, you know, or, you know, you take a little break or whatever, but you're in the, you're in the groove, you're feeling like you're doing everything that you can do, and that you feel like that's not only enough, but it's good. So, in the, in the sphere of negative emotions that go out the first ring, that's outside of that, on the target, is nervous. And we think that nervous is the worst, because it's so unpleasant. We feel like we're gonna throw up, right? But here's the thing, why nervous is almost there, is because you're, you've got energy, and you're taking responsibility, you're doing your best, you're just not quite confident, okay? So nervous, even though it's so unpleasant. The next one on the ring is anger. And the reason that anger is out there beyond nervous, is a little worse than, if you will, nervous. It's harder to get back to that target place, okay? It's further away from it. It's because many times you're thinking about something from the past. Anger is thinking about something from the past.

Speaker 1:
[71:24] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[71:27] But the reason that it's not the worst of the one that's on the outside is because you're still taking some responsibility or you're still engaged. You've got some juice going, right? But it's just really misdirected.

Speaker 1:
[71:43] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[71:44] The worst of getting back to that is blame. And the reason that blame is the furthest from that ideal place in the center where you're so focused and feel good and all that is because when you blame or when we blame, which is also kind of a judgment, then we don't take responsibility. Like if you blame something like, well, you know, I couldn't do anything about it, right? So that's very disempowering. And a lot of times, it's real easy. So there's no energy there. So it's a very disempowering place to blame. So for me personally, when I start to blame, you know, it's really easy sometimes, like to blame our spouses or the dog or, you know, whatever it is, it's just because it's such an instant relief, like, oh, I didn't bring this on. You know, they did it and look at what I have to do now. You know, that sort of thing. It's just like, whoa, this is what you have. Say, you know, what do you do now? This is the situation. You can handle it. Let it go. Just, you know, don't, if it's something with a friend or a spouse, they're like, do you want to dwell on that and make a, you know, I'm asking myself, do I want to dwell on that and carry that funk with me? Or do I want to let it go? Or do I want to talk to them about it? You know, like, I'm going to make a conscious choice. So I think that when I, and because I know the toxic nature of blame, of no responsibility and the ease of it, I'm pretty self-aware that when I go to that place. So that might just be a little thought about it, in judgment in general. And then I think in what you were saying about kind of transposing that is, we think it's relief, but it's not. It's more pain, really.

Speaker 1:
[74:01] I love the use of the word blame because it insinuates finger pointing, which is a thing not only in our industry, but all over the world. It's an endemic in modern life at the moment. But what I love, and it's very connected to something that Lindy, Lindy Birch, who was Barbra's co-coach with me this morning, she said something really powerful, which was if you don't get that hyped up feeling before you go into the ring, it means you don't care. We were talking about the nerves, that little bit of edge, that little bit of, what did she call it? Like juice?

Speaker 2:
[74:43] She called it juice.

Speaker 1:
[74:44] Juice. If you don't have that, then you're not doing it right.

Speaker 2:
[74:50] Maybe it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1:
[74:52] Maybe it doesn't matter to you.

Speaker 2:
[74:53] I agree to that, for me personally, that juice causes me to go deeper into what I'm about to do. It like, because I practice what I practice so long, the juice for me, like I, well, I haven't shown in Will Rogers for a long time, but I did for 30 years. And the reason that I love to go and show there is because there was no place on the planet that in terms of the show world, that meant that much to me, and that I knew that I had to be connected with my horse and do my job and get into that place and get help, and help get my horse into my place and manage the challenges, manage the bad, quote, unquote, bad cattle that came in, like the difficult, wild cattle that would come in or something. That that was my job, and the way I personally managed it was to get almost into a meditative state, because of all the visualization I did at home. But going under those bright lights in that coliseum was like turning that on, on steroids. And so, I really worked on not... That was my type of simulation. It was like there was no where else that I could get that almost like shot of, I guess it was dopamine or something. You know, like I just went into this place where it's like bringing on in Will Rogers. And, you know, I just felt fabulous. And so, I think that's one thing that visualization does. But going back to what Lindy said also is that that's that intense focus and arousal in a place that's just above that, you know, total comfort line that you're just about getting to the place. It's just a little bit uncomfortable, but, you know, it's like a great place.

Speaker 1:
[77:08] Okay, now this is exciting, because this is something that not only have I learned something that I've kind of jammed on with Josh Nickel and something that you and I talked about, that I'm just, this is something that I've now come to really appreciate. When we do hard things with our horses and come out okay, we build confidence, we build resilience, we build capacity, that that's something, those feelings, I've come to really understand that on a deeper level on this road trip, because it's just been a constant state of discomfort. But then that, now when you explain the bullseye and you say that nervousness is just before you get to that sweet spot, that flow state, that hyper focus, that confidence that I'm now starting to understand it. And it's like, it brings into even what you were talking about in the messy middle. It's like, we actually have to push through this deeply sludgy, difficult place to then get to refinement, to then get to hyper focus and flow state and confidence and resilience and capacity. But that it's hard earned, you know? And that if we do not, and so it's something that really hit home for me recently was, oh, the reason why I've just like my, my horses and I have just like up the level. It's in, in so many, in so many ways why we have a deeper connection, why I feel more confident both in myself and in them, is because we went and did hard things and we came out okay. And as we do that, we build capacity and that's where we build confidence.

Speaker 2:
[78:54] Absolutely. And you know what? There's, here's the thing, there's no escaping that. I mean, people think that they might not, they might be the one that doesn't have to do that. But that's how it works. There's no getting out of it. There's no shortcut to it. Except, this isn't really a shortcut, but it makes the process more efficient and more effective, is when we understand things like the nervous system and like the learning, and like we can help ourselves, so it's not just so random and goes on and on. You know, like we can really help ourselves.

Speaker 1:
[79:34] When did you realize that understanding and dedicating this chapter of your career to the nervous system and to the way that it interacts in with our performance, when did you realize that that was important?

Speaker 2:
[79:47] When I started to professionally train cutting horses in the like late 80s, I saw I was sitting in the in the box seats at Will Rogers, and I noticed that the same people always did really well, but they weren't always riding the same horses, but it was how they showed and how they were just so like steely and poised and you know, just such performer or they put their horses in situations that could show the best of their horses, you know, like they were just masters of the presentation. And I wanted to understand more about that. And that's when I went to the Human Performance Institute and became, they asked me if I would be certain, if I would be willing to work to be a certified instructor in the horse world in their work. And so I immersed myself in it. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't then called nervous system work, like is discussed widely today. But it was, it was exactly, it's exactly the same. And I saw the power in it. I took everything I learned. And I mean, I, you could probably hear it in my voice. I still feel that way. I took everything I learned and did everything for myself, hook line and sinker. And I did it for my clients. And I came home and applied the principles to my horses. And that is when, like within six months, I was the first woman to win one of the triple crown, legs of the triple crown. And then six months later, won another one. And I, I just knew instinctively, knew the power of it and the training was nervous system. And as I look back on it, mindset and how you used your mind, it got me through like very hard times. You know, when I, when our son passed away, I relied on all those principles to survive life because I understood like vitality. It was like, it was a training in vitality. And I taught that and still do for like 30, 35 years, like really distinctly. And then even though I was applying it to the horses, especially a particular concept called recovery then, but I didn't break it down for the horses like I'm understanding now. Because like I can look at you, and this is a part of my coaching, like you send me a video of you riding. And I can intuitively and I guess analytically, know pretty with pretty good certainty where your nervous system is, and I can help you with mindset and changing, tweaking your body and using your body, and having your mind serve your body, those kinds of things in any discipline. I can do it the best in cutting because I know cutting, but I can help with that. With the horse, we have to look at that closely, just as closely as a rider, as a trainer to know the subtle signs and to make it be important. Because when we were talking, I would bring you up or bring you down or not down, but I would lower the heat, so to speak, lower the overstimulation so that you could learn again. It's like seeing that in horses and really getting that. And that part really excites me because I've been doing some things for years. But now I am studying the horses even more in detail, and then putting it together with the concepts of learning, it's like amazing to me. It's just amazing.

Speaker 1:
[84:18] So is that when, if someone would attend one of your retreats, which is something you do, is that what you offer? Why don't you walk us through a little bit of what, if someone, you know, they're listening to this podcast going, I want to work with Barbra Schulte. Is it rich, you know, besides working with you one on one, which is something I know you do, is this a little bit of what you're offering in retreats?

Speaker 2:
[84:43] Yes, and I offer it to online courses also. But it retreats, I do different kinds of retreats. One of the, my favorite ones is I do with a woman Sandy Collier, who is just a badass in the range cow horse. She was the first woman to ever win the Snufflebit Futurity. And she's really, you know, steep into that world and the judging and all that stuff. Anyway, we do a retreat in Moab where we work cattle.

Speaker 1:
[85:19] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[85:20] And it is so much fun. And you don't have to have your own horse.

Speaker 1:
[85:25] And you don't have to have any cow experience, cattle experience?

Speaker 2:
[85:27] No, you don't have to have any of it.

Speaker 1:
[85:29] Wow, guys, that's a special experience in Moab, Utah.

Speaker 2:
[85:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[85:34] That sounds fun.

Speaker 2:
[85:35] On the Colorado with the magical Canyonlands, and we do all kinds of fun things there as well.

Speaker 1:
[85:44] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[85:45] Anyway, and then I'm really looking into devising a retreat in Brenham, and where it's not about cattle, it's about people bringing their courses and learning the skills of their own self-regulation. And it's not just self-regulation, but it's like when you get to where, like there's this place where we can be, where we're like happy and attentive, and like just to live in that space, like to be so aware, it's very, to me, it's very exciting.

Speaker 1:
[86:33] That sounds super exciting.

Speaker 2:
[86:35] Yeah, I think it is too.

Speaker 1:
[86:38] So to wrap every episode, I asked the same series of questions, and I'm very excited to hear yours. If you could read one book to The Horse World, what would it be?

Speaker 2:
[86:54] It would be The Little Book of Talent by Daniel Coyle. He has two books, The Talent Code and The Little Book of Talent. The Little Book of Talent is very succinct and it has exercises, and it takes people through their motivation, which is all that the very first part of it is like why they do what they're doing. And then the second thing is how we learn, and that whole thing about repetition. And then the fourth part of his process is how you sustain motivation. And they're very succinct, short lessons. So that's it.

Speaker 1:
[87:37] That's what I would read. Who is the most iconic horse in history?

Speaker 2:
[87:45] Sergeant Arclas. Oh, such a good choice. He's the one that I'm sure people know who he is, but he's the one that was so brave and walked through, walked up a mountain with ammunition. And I think it was World War II, and then brought dead bodies down by himself, through all the noise, through all the fireworks. It's just courage.

Speaker 1:
[88:18] That horse makes me emotional. Every time I see it, it's the statue.

Speaker 2:
[88:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[88:22] It's like very moving. Most undervalued skill as a rider.

Speaker 2:
[88:29] But I think it's very important to have a service system work as really important as to take it past, understanding it, and knowing, yeah, that's a good idea. But to really work on it, knowing that you can work on it in your daily life all the time.

Speaker 1:
[88:53] Who is the greatest horseman or horsewoman in history?

Speaker 2:
[88:58] I don't know. Can I say I don't know? It's hard to delineate that because people have so evolved.

Speaker 1:
[89:10] Who is the first one that came to mind?

Speaker 2:
[89:12] Probably Ray Hunt. And I think that he was at a time that was really iconic, of course, it really made a huge impact. I don't think that his way, all of his ways, I mean, obviously, he's human, so he's not perfect. But of having people really understand or maybe applying some of the same things to people as he was thinking about horses. Yeah. But he was absolutely before his time. I see now some of the trainers, of that are being impacted by the understanding of the brain and the body and the nervous system that are incorporating it together and the impact that they're having on the horse world in such a positive way and how many of them are understated and they're not out there like teaching or having some kind of high profile. They're just doing it and it really thrills me. And I am hopeful that we'll continue. And it's important to me that hopefully that I can make some kind of contribution in the horse world to raise awareness of things that really help people bring out their joy and bring out their best. All the stuff about nervous system work and all that, it's all part of it. But we're just meant to thrive. We're meant to thrive. We're beautiful souls, we're beautiful spirits. And to really embrace that and know that as humans, that we have the opportunity to just make this life amazing, even more amazing, by following our own heart, our own path is in the horse, how the horse helps us do that. I really love that.

Speaker 1:
[91:32] And the last question is mares, stallions or geldings?

Speaker 2:
[91:37] Geldings. Why? Because they're so, they're so steady. And I really, I guess at this point in my life, that's a really nice element.

Speaker 1:
[91:56] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[91:56] You know, and I really, I like mares too. And, you know, they're fun and, you know, depending on their hormonal tendencies and how all that goes. But I just love the steadyness of yeltings. I just, they're so dependable.

Speaker 1:
[92:17] So. Barbra, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 2:
[92:23] You're so welcome. Thank you for having me. It was great honor, great honor.