transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:07] Pushkin. Many years ago, I was on the board of a think tank called the RAND Corporation out in Los Angeles. It was one of the coolest things I've ever done. RAND does all kinds of work on health care and energy in the environment. And most of all, they consult with the Air Force, which meant from time to time various Air Force dignitaries would come and brief us. And there were two I've never forgotten. The first was a four-star general named David Goldfein. From 2016 to 2020, he was Chief of Staff, the highest military post in the Air Force. Here's a Dave Goldfein story that sums him up. I was once in an elevator with him at some conference, and we were all locked in conversation with the conference host. And there was a man in the corner of the elevator who clearly worked for the hotel, older guy, in a maintenance uniform, who, I'm ashamed to say, we all treated like he was invisible. Except for General Goldfein, who stopped the conversation, reached over, shook the man's hand. Hi, I'm Dave Goldfein. How was your day? In my experience, most powerful people do not notice the anonymous maintenance guy in the corner. Second memorable person who came to Rand when I was there, the Secretary of the Air Force, Heather Wilson, the political appointee who runs the service along with the Chief of Staff. I met Heather Wilson almost 10 years ago now, and my friends will back me up on this. I have not stopped talking about her. In my perfect universe, Heather Wilson would run for president. I don't care which party, it doesn't matter. And if she did, not only would she win easily, but she would restore everything about that office that has been damaged over the past generation. When we decided to look at some consequential mistakes people have made for this mini-series, I remembered something that happened back when Wilson and Goldfein were running the Air Force. A tragedy that unfolded in Texas. And a story about the mistake at the center of it. Or more accurately, a story about how to respond to a mistake. And I wanted to share it with you. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is my conversation with Dr. Heather Wilson and General Dave Goldfein. Before we go on, am I remembering correctly, you were in the same Air Force Academy class.

Speaker 2:
[02:46] Yeah, we started at the Air Force Academy on the same day. I'm in the class of 1982. We didn't know each other really well as cadets, and our careers crossed paths several times after graduating from the Academy, but we came back together at the end of our federal careers as service secretary and chief. In some ways, our values were formed at the same institution at the same time.

Speaker 3:
[03:13] Now, I will add that one of us graduated in four years, became a Rhodes Scholar, Congresswoman, started her own company, became university president and secretary, and one of us didn't.

Speaker 2:
[03:30] One of us did something useful, Dave.

Speaker 1:
[03:32] How far down in the graduating class were you, Dave? I've forgotten.

Speaker 3:
[03:36] Well, I will tell you that I was part of the group that made the top half possible.

Speaker 1:
[03:42] But you said something just then. I keep calling you, Dave. I should call you General Goldfein.

Speaker 3:
[03:48] No. Please call me Dave.

Speaker 1:
[03:49] Okay. I don't know which one of you wants to start. Tell me how this all, when this began, how it began, how you found out about it. Go from there.

Speaker 2:
[04:00] It was one of the worst days, still probably the worst day in my professional life. It was a Sunday, November 2017. I was in the upstairs of my row house in Virginia. I got a call from the Inspector General and he said, I don't know if you're watching TV, but there's been something terrible that's happened in Sutherland Springs, Texas.

Speaker 4:
[04:25] Overnight, the quiet town of Sutherland Springs, Texas, trying to come to grips with the nation's latest horrific mass shooting. More than two dozen people were killed during Sunday services at the Small Baptist Church. The victims, ranging in age from 5 to 72 years old. We also learned a short time ago that between 12 and 14 of the dead are children.

Speaker 2:
[04:50] And I, of course, immediately went on and found out what was going on. Someone walked into a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, and opened fire and killed, I think it was 26 people in the end. It was just awful.

Speaker 4:
[05:07] We are told now that the parents of the shooters, ex-wife worshiped here. They were not at church yesterday.

Speaker 2:
[05:15] The Inspector General, General Sam Said, said, we're not sure, but we think he was an airman. And even more than that, he may have been dishonorably discharged for a violent offense while on active duty. And we might have failed to inform the FBI, which would have, if there was a way to put somebody on a list so they can't buy a weapon. And so Dave and I talked that Sunday afternoon. We agreed we would meet at nine o'clock in the morning in our conference room and find out the facts and then, and take it from there. But it was awful. It was just awful.

Speaker 3:
[05:59] Yeah, so, you know, as it all came together, most important thing for us was to get as many facts as we could that we, when we gathered the people on Monday to get everybody together.

Speaker 2:
[06:13] And it was, so when we got together at nine o'clock in the morning, the Inspector General General Said confirmed that yes, he was an airman. Yes, he had been convicted of a violent offense while on active duty and that the service had failed to inform the FBI and put him on the list so he couldn't buy a weapon. And then you think it, you know, you think at that point it can't get worse, but it did.

Speaker 1:
[06:39] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:41] Because the next thing we found out in that meeting was that the Defense Department Inspector General had done a review three years earlier of whether all of the services were appropriately notifying the FBI and putting people on the, you know, can't buy a weapon list and said there were problems. So we had been told that the system didn't work. There was an audit finding and we didn't fix it. So it was not a good day.

Speaker 1:
[07:18] So you have, we have a case of somebody who is dishonorably discharged for a violent offense. And what's the internal mechanism in which the way that case is dealt with within the Air Force?

Speaker 2:
[07:32] When, when, when systems screw up, when, when things fail, it's usually not because of somebody intended to make a mistake. It's because, you know, the person who did that job moved on or nobody wrote down the procedures or people weren't adequately trained. And the way it was supposed to work in the service is that a felony offenses, unlike minor offenses, felony offenses are handled by the Office of Special Investigations and a military prosecutor. Once there is a conviction, it should have been reported on a system by that Office of Special Investigations to the FBI, and then it is closed out and, you know, put on file. That didn't happen. And so it was a combination of systems and processes and training, and it wasn't done right. And we were told that in advance when the DOD Inspector General did an audit of all of the services, and in fact, the Air Force had been doing better on it than the other services, but that didn't matter. We still knew we had a problem and we'd failed to fix it.

Speaker 1:
[08:50] We'll be right back with more of my conversation with General Goldfein and Dr. Wilson. After you get that call, Dr. Wilson, who do you call? Who's your first call? Is it Dave?

Speaker 2:
[09:16] My first call usually was to Dave. Now, we also talked to the General Counsel and so forth. He was actually out of town, as I remember, on that day. But one of the things, and this is one of the things about our relationship as service secretary and chief, the chief has an obligation to give his best military advice to the civilians appointed to run the department. As a secretary, there's nothing that says that you have an obligation to ask for it. But I generally did a much better job when I asked for it, because Dave Goldfein may be a much better secretary.

Speaker 1:
[09:51] You said you guys were shaped by the same values. This is a really important part, and I want you to talk a little. Before we go on, I want you to talk about it. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 3:
[10:02] Each service has a set of core values that are infused into every member of the institution, normally during basic training, and then reinforced throughout their time in service. So you could go to each service and find those core values. For us, it's integrity, service, and excellence. So integrity first is how we're taught to approach all things. So in terms of how we approach this, it started off with ownership because we needed to ensure that we were true to the values of the institution, and that we were representing the institution correctly as its leaders. And so integrity first, service before self, meaning that we look at this opportunity to lead as a gift that's offered by those we're privileged to serve. And each day we ask the question, are we worthy of that trust and confidence? Not only of the airmen that we were privileged to lead, but also the American people that entrusted us with our sons and daughters. And so those core values drive how we choose to handle things throughout our careers.

Speaker 2:
[11:15] I would say on the integrity first part, once on that Monday morning, we knew the truth. We knew that he had been an airman. We knew that he had been convicted of a violent crime. And we knew that we should have reported that to the FBI, and we didn't. Those were facts we knew by Monday morning. And as I said, our general council was out of town, but there was a more junior lawyer around the table there. And everybody was just, man was just a somber meeting. But the lawyer, when we kind of went around the table and said, all right, what do you think we should do next? On this one, it was very often that Dave and I came from things from slightly different perspectives. You know, we'd see different things. And I think we made better decisions because steel sharpens steel. We'd engage a lot with each other. But on this one, there was no daylight between us from the very beginning. We knew the truth, and we thought we needed to just say it. And so we made a decision at that meeting that we would release a statement by late that morning. We gave them a deadline of 11. I think it took us till 1. It always takes a little longer, but to say what we knew. And we also thought that that would allow our institution to focus on fixing the problem rather than denying it or delaying things or trying to duck accountability. And David and I also did a press conference or press availability with the Pentagon media the following morning, which was, you know, that wasn't fun. But in some ways, when we just said these are the facts as we know them and this is what we're doing to fix the problem, what could they ask? You know, we're going to deny things. It was really unpleasant. But it was the truth. And I think David and I were both committed to just telling the truth. Well, good afternoon. I'll perhaps open up with a couple of remarks. The offenses for which the shooter in Texas was court-martialed should have been reported. And that's why we launched a full-scale review of this case and all others like it. Since Sunday night, the Air Force Inspector General has talked to about 100 people involved in this case. We are looking at all of our databases. And if we have problems that we find, we'll fix them.

Speaker 1:
[13:44] David, can you give us your memory of that press conference?

Speaker 3:
[13:49] Yeah, so, you know, it's... I think we both expected to get, you know, really tough questions. And we were prepared, you know, to own up. But it was like Heather said, right? Once we opened up with, hey, we own this. You know, we, the United States Air Force, goofed this up. And we, as the leaders, represent the institution that goofed this up. And so we take ownership, and our focus is now on ensure that we understand all the facts, and we are going to fix this to ensure that it can never happen again. Once we started off with that statement, you really could have sort of felt the air go out of the room and then the questions at that point were just more about detail. And I don't remember getting any really pointed, you know, attacks or questions. It was more, okay, well, tell us what you know about this, and how are you going to handle that? And so I think that, you know, my recollection of it was it accomplished what we were hoping it would accomplish, which was taking ownership.

Speaker 2:
[15:00] One of the things that somebody around that table on Monday morning said was, well, you know, you and the chief weren't the leaders of the Air Force at the time this prosecution happened and they failed to report. And both Dave and I had the same reaction was, that doesn't matter. We represent the institution. And Dave couldn't take the four stars off of his shoulders any more than I could take the airman symbol off of my lapel. When you are the leader, you own the institution and you represent the institution. And you have to take ownership for the institution and lead it forward. And so, the fact that it didn't happen on our watch, that's no excuse. We're not going to make an excuse. We're not going to say it was somebody else's problem.

Speaker 1:
[15:53] We'll be right back. What happens next? You have this press conference, you've told the world, we're looking into this, we're gonna go over every single case, make sure we've done the right thing, but we still have the aftermath in Texas.

Speaker 2:
[16:24] This was a bedroom community for Randolph Air Force Base, and then some of the victims were the family of an airman who was deployed overseas, and Dave took the lead on that part. And I'll let him tell that part.

Speaker 3:
[16:40] So we reached out to the community, and because there was a series of funerals they were holding, and reached out to the mayor of San Antonio, Ron Nuremberg at the time, and asked if it would be appropriate, and it would be acceptable for me to travel to the San Antonio and attend the funeral in uniform, representing the service, knowing that we were responsible for everything we've been talking about. Because I wanted to make sure that we weren't contributing to any increased pain by me being there. And I offered to also come in civilian attire if that's what they preferred, and they said, no, we'd appreciate if you would be here in uniform. So I met with the mayor first, and we talked about, all right, how do we ensure that this is not just a once and done, that we have a long-term commitment to this community as the community works to recover from this tragedy? How do we ensure the Air Force is continually plugged in for the long term? So that was the agenda working out with the mayor.

Speaker 1:
[17:50] Tell me more about going to that funeral. How did you feel on the flight down?

Speaker 3:
[17:57] Well, I knew that we had an airman that was deployed and several members of his family. This is a young airman. Several members of his families were killed. And we were going to be several, yes, members of his extended family. Because a member, again, Sutherland Springs is a bedroom community for Randolph Air Force Base, which is one of our largest Air Force training bases. So the number of people that come through Randolph, that's probably one of the most traveled bases. So when you talk to airmen, right, and ask them of their, you know, common experiences, many of them will share a period of time when they went through Randolph Air Force Base or Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. So San Antonio is known as Military City, USA, is one of the, you know, the monikers that is used because there's so much military. You can't go to the airport in San Antonio without seeing a large number of young airmen who are, who are arriving for basic training or leaving. And so, you know, on the way down, I'm traveling in uniform to Military City, USA. And I'm going to meet with this airman. And having had the unfortunate opportunity to meet with a lot of airmen and families over the course of my career, especially in the two years I was the Air Component Commander for Central Command, where we lost a number of soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, while I was there. I'd had experience with handling the tragedy of death and talking with the families. And so I had a good sense of what I was stepping into. I'll never forget, you know, going to the funeral. And I met with the pastor of the church, Frank Pomeroy. And it continually remains perhaps one of the most profound spiritual moments that I had as chief when, you know, Pastor Pomeroy stood up and started off by asking us if we would pray for the shooter and his family. And he did so while his 14-year-old daughter was in a casket because she, they had lost her in the shooting. I don't know if there's better example of spiritual courage, right? We forgive those who trespass against us. I don't know that we're going to find a better example of that. And so being there for that airman, being there for those families was, you know, both profound and also I think every time there's a setback or a failure in an institution, it's an opportunity for the leaders to teach the next generation how to handle failure because we all get knocked down. All institutions have failures. The question is not whether you're going to fail. The question is, how do you handle it when you do fail? Do you take ownership? Do you step up? Do you get back up? And do you teach the next generation of leaders how to handle failure so that they can be more prepared when it comes to them because it's going to come to them. My concern on this particular one was, would there be a hostile reaction by the community to my being there? Because it is a hostile reaction not to me, but a hostile reaction to the United States Air Force. And there was none of that. It was a welcoming opening. Sutherland Springs is an incredible community. And again, I go back to, you know, Pastor Frank Pomeroy, who is just an incredible, an incredible spiritual leader. I think he set the tone for all of us when he asked us to pray for the shooter.

Speaker 1:
[21:58] And there was, there wasn't a hostile reaction because you showed up.

Speaker 3:
[22:04] I don't know how much of it was because I think it was more, we were all there for the same purpose.

Speaker 1:
[22:12] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[22:13] Right. I was not there to do anything other than to, I mean, I didn't sit in the front row. They tried to move me up the front row and I said, no, I'm part of this community today. And so I want to sit with the community and I'd like to sit in an area that is with the families that are represented here. And so this was not a, we made a point, I made a point on my team. I said, do not please make this a big protocol event for the Chief of Staff of the Air Force. This is Dave Goldfein coming here to show my respect, my love for these families, and to represent the institution that let them down.

Speaker 2:
[23:06] So I don't think I could have done it. First of all, I think Dave was, now there's a, when people think about the American Air Force, they don't think about somebody in civilian clothes, the secretary, they think about our uniformed military. And so I think Dave was the right one to represent us there. And he and I talked about this. I also think I'm not sure I could have done what he did. I mean, it was, it was just pretty amazing as a leader to do that. But I don't mean with the humility that he did it because he's that way. But just the whole thing is just so incredibly heartbreaking.

Speaker 1:
[23:48] One last question. It's such an extraordinary story. Can you reflect on what this ought to teach us? What this taught you and what this ought to teach us about what a leader is?

Speaker 2:
[24:03] You know, there's a variety of lessons I think woven into this. I actually had to go up to Capitol Hill and testify in front of the Senate several months after this happened. And anybody who testifies in front of the Senate needs to be prepared to be grilled to get really hard questions. And I've had harder questions on more benign topics than I did on that day. And I think part of it was because I did in my opening statement pretty much what Dave and I had done the day after it happened, which was to own it and to tell the Senate what we were doing to fix it. And I, of course, had met individually with the senators, mostly the senators and the House members most directly affected. I remember we had a wonderful director of legislative affairs, General Steve Basham. We called him Bash. He was a B-2 pilot, very experienced in legislative affairs and aviation. And he was sitting behind me in his very stoic way as he did as a two-star and helped prepare me. He had been there Monday morning sitting through the meetings. He had gone with me to the Hill for all of the one-on-ones. He had been involved in all of this. And he was usually a very straight guy, very professional guy. And when we walked out of that hearing, he said, you know, Madam Secretary, I learned something today. That's a pretty strong statement coming from a two-star with all of his experience. And I said, well, what's that, Bash? He said, the result of today's hearing wasn't decided today. It happened in the 24 hours after the incident, when you and the chief took ownership. And by taking ownership, by owning failure, we not only allowed the institution to focus on fixing the problem and focusing on the future rather than on kind of trying to mess around and deny the past. But it also, you know, sometimes when institutions screw up, they get sued or there's claims or whatever. And yes, the government did get sued. The Air Force got sued by the families of the victims. But as the institution, the families also were, if we had denied responsibility, the relationship between the communities and the service would have been completely different. And because it would have been, you know, the arm's length difference with lawyers talking to lawyers, and it would not have allowed them to heal either. And so I think it mattered to the institution to be able to say, okay, when things get screwed up, the best thing to do is to own it and fix it, even when it really hurts. And it's also the best for the people who have been impacted by the failure.

Speaker 3:
[27:08] I'll share with you that I've come to believe over the years that the journey to becoming an inspirational servant leader is a journey that actually never ends. I'm still not the servant leader I want to be, but I'm working on it. And I think if we ever get to a point where we plant the flag as leaders and believe we figured it all out and got it all, maybe that's a pretty good indication of its time to retire. Because we've stopped learning, we've stopped listening, we've stopped growing as leaders. And so, you know, leadership as a servant leader is a gift. And it's a gift that's offered by those you're privileged to lead. And you've got to earn and re-earn that gift every single day. And you earn trust and confidence as a leader over weeks, months, and years. But it can be lost in a single moment of indiscretion or bad decision-making or bad behavior. And so for us, there was an opportunity that was presented for us to teach that next generation of leaders what servant leadership looks like. And so perhaps part of the, you know, the positive outcome of this incredibly terrible tragedy for these families and this community is there's a story here that can help the next generation when they face something similar and how to step up as leaders and take ownership.

Speaker 1:
[28:39] I'm going to change what I said at the beginning. I don't just want Heather Wilson to run for president. I want the two of them on the ticket. Doesn't matter which party, doesn't matter which order, Wilson and Goldfein or Goldfein and Wilson, Wilson and Goldfein in 2028 to remind us what real leadership looks like. If you want to know more about the two of them, they wrote a wonderful book together, Get Back Up, Lessons in Servant Leadership. Links to the book are in our show notes. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Byrd Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan and Ben Nadav Haferi. Our editor is Karen Shikurji. Fact Checking by Angely Mercado. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Byrd Lawrence, Owen Miller and Sarah Bruguier. Original Music by Luis Guerra. Sound Design and Mastering by Jake Gorski. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. Coming next week on our Mistakes series.

Speaker 4:
[29:39] He's like, yo, I need you to make a record.

Speaker 2:
[29:42] And I said, what?

Speaker 1:
[29:43] He said, make a record with JLo and put Ja on it and make it a duet.