transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] Welcome to part 2 with Dr. Shannon, Exodus, and Leviticus.

Speaker 2:
[00:05] One of the hardest things for us as Latter-day Saints, and I think it's a problem with part of Christianity anyway, to see and do is recognize the sacrificial system is a complete religious system. It brought them closer to Jehovah. They don't just say, now I know who Jesus is, I have to do something with these sacrifices. The sacrifices are how they met with God. Back to the sacrament for a second. We think about Jesus, remember Jesus. The bishop stands up there and says, okay, now for 15 minutes, we're going to think about Jesus, remember what he did for us. You sit there and you think, no, the priest kneels down, breaks bread, blesses bread, we eat it. There's more than just a mental thing happened with sacrifices. We talk about how they all point to the Savior. They absolutely do. But they don't necessarily all point to the mortal ministry and the resurrection, if that makes sense. i.e., remembering what President Oaks and President Nelson both repeatedly taught, Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament. The purpose of sacrifices was to reconcile Israel with Jehovah. It was to make that relationship right. There's a whole burnt offering that we read in 1. There's a trespass offering, peace offering, and then sin offering. That's the five main offerings. They do different things. You do a trespass offering for different reasons than you do a peace offering. This was their sacrament. This was their baptism. This was their endowment. This was how they interacted with God. It was through these animal sacrifices. The whole burnt offering. That's when we see described in 9. This one's unique because almost every sacrifice you ate, the priest ate a portion, the sacrificial ate a portion, the whole burnt offering, you burned the whole thing. You took the animal, you flayed it, you cut it in pieces, and you burned it. Well, just for the fun of it, I did a little bit of math. The going rate for a male cow, for food is about $2,000. The whole burnt offering is equivalent to taking a stack of $50 bills, setting them on fire and saying, that's yours, God. I don't want it. This is for you.

Speaker 3:
[02:33] You imagine taking cash to the bishop and he's like, thank you.

Speaker 2:
[02:38] Then putting setting on fire. That's literally what the whole burnt offering does. By the way, we have texts from other people around the ancient Israelites and the Jews later on, and they're flabbergasted by this. Why are you wasting all this food? To Belknap's point, it's not a waste. We're giving it to God. We're making it holy. Part of the intriguing things about Israel religion is, we see that seeing things, seeing holiness does not require you to get anything out of it. The whole burnt offering is 100% that kind of offering.

Speaker 3:
[03:18] Avram, what is it about sacrifice that creates holiness? Why can't it be, sit in a hammock and you will become holy? This lesson today is, sacrifice brings forth holiness. Why?

Speaker 2:
[03:34] If we go back to Leviticus 10, Leviticus 19, be therefore holy, because I am holy. When we're talking about holiness, we're not talking about some kind of ineffable characteristic. We're talking about being like God. That straight to this idea is holiness is being like God. I think about our dearly beloved President Holland. He gave this talk, you're probably familiar with it, years ago, Missionary Work in the Atonement. In this talk, it's the missionaries, it's an MTC talk. It was given, we're talking like 25 years ago. I was a missionary when he gave it. So it was a long time ago here. In it, he asked this question of these missionaries. It's like, look guys, we have the gospel of Jesus Christ. We have the truth. We have the Holy Ghost. Why isn't missionary work easy? Why is the only problem of missionary work getting hypothermia from being in the font so often? He says, because salvation is not a cheap experience. At a certain point, those of us who claim to follow and emulate Jesus, have to feel a little bit about what Jesus felt. It wasn't easy for Him, President Holland says, how could we ever think it's going to be easy for us? Talk about the ultimate act of sacrifice. Our Lord and Savior, God Himself, nailed to a cross. We have this great Old Testament background for Christians. When it comes down to what it means to sacrifice, it means letting yourself being tortured to death because you love the whole rest of humanity. I talked with you a few years ago about Moses 7 and about how God weeps. Our Heavenly Father loves us enough to still be vulnerable with us. I think the reason that sitting on a beach and sipping piña coladas is never ever going to work because that is not how you be like God, because that is not what God does. Sacrifice makes us holy because sacrifice makes us like God.

Speaker 1:
[05:58] There's also that common saying that God is more interested in our growth than He is in our comfort. Sitting on a beach with a piña colada.

Speaker 3:
[06:10] Sounds like growth to me, you guys.

Speaker 1:
[06:14] It's my kind of growth.

Speaker 2:
[06:17] It's worth remembering for these Israelites. They're in the wilderness. You get a little bit of mausoleum here and all these things in wisdom and order. We talk about symbolism and one of the things about symbolism to always remember, A, which is that X always equals Y. Sometimes you say, oh, it's symbolic by which you mean I don't know what it means. But then with that also, one of the cool things about what God does with the sacrifices and with you and I, is they all have pragmatic purposes. Think about an agricultural environment. You think about these animals. How many male animals do you need in a herd? One or two? Just a few. So what do you do with the rest? You sacrifice them. There's a preference for male animals because of the symbolism of Jesus. The first one is like that. There's a preference for male animals for pragmatic reasons. The same way, the altar of incense in the holy place. The smoke represents the praise of the Lord. It represents another veil of protection for humanity. But also, have you ever been to a stockyard? Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse? Our former colleague, Byron Merrill, used to actually take his students, when Byron used to have a slaughterhouse, he would take them there when teaching these chapters and have them witness a, oh my goodness, illicit slaughtering. And I actually, when he told me about that, I'm like, that's experiential learning before it's time, Byron. But this notion that it smells, blood smells, animals smell. You and I are used to temple experience that's very, very antiseptic.

Speaker 1:
[08:00] Smells like beautiful clean carpet.

Speaker 2:
[08:03] The ancient temple would have been an assault to the senses in that sense. The insect covers that and makes it sweet. That's why you add salt, because it transforms burning, burning flesh into meat. This idea that they are transforming this, this part of this beautiful thing about consecration. The sacrifices transform something like burning flesh and turn it into meat. They turn it into something wonderful. I've had callings that I've loved, callings I'm not very good at. I was a ward mission leader once. I was awful at it, just the worst. But you know what? I kept trying. I kept doing it. God took that sacrifice and made something of it. He took what I was doing and did more with it than I could do. The other key part of this, I think, is that according to Leviticus, one of the primary purposes of sacrifice is to make atonement. That's what they do. They set right the relationship between God and humanity. What does that, and this is actually really fun, is blood. Leviticus 17, 11 says, For the life of the flesh is in the blood. The ancient years light notion is that what makes the thing alive is that it has blood. I have given it upon you the altar to make atonement for your souls. For it is the blood that make the atonement for your soul. This is an important thing about sacrifice. You are taking a living thing's life. You are pouring that life on an altar so that you can live, so that you can be right with God. Sacrifice always asks the question, what or who has died so that I can live? It's so important in thinking through what Leviticus is doing and it undergirds basically the core of Christian doctrine is in Leviticus. Jesus Christ poured out His life blood so that we could live. That's why with the sacrament we eat the bread, but we drink the blood so that we can live. In Leviticus, it says this is why this is working. There's a reason why we do this. It's not because God thinks killing animals is fun. There's an actual reason and doctrine why this works and how this works. And that actually feeds into a little bit less profoundly in some ways. But I think about the dietary laws. A funny story about that. My mother was meeting with the missionaries. They asked her about the word of wisdom, like no tea, no coffee, do you know smoking? Do you think you can do that, Sister Shannon? She said, elders, I keep kosher. This is nothing. Kosher is this idea of, you can't eat these animals, you can eat these animals. But the thing about that is there's actually a logic there as well. There's a reason behind it. It's actually easy to see with fish, because the kinds of fish that are appropriate to be eaten are fish that have scales and fish that have fins. Sharks are out. Sharks have fins but no scales. Catfish are out. Catfish have fins but no scales. Shellfish, totally out. Shellfish have neither fins nor scales. Because what Leviticus is saying is, it's all about this notion of putting things in order, putting things in their proper categories. It's not making a statement by the way that these are evil or bad. The statement it's making is, these are things that are in the categories that I want you to be looking for. Land animals, chucud have cloves and hooves. Pigs have cloves and hooves according to Leviticus, we can get there or whatever for that, but they don't chucud. They're outside the categories. As Leviticus frames it, actually in Leviticus 10, it's before the food laws, it says, the priest's job is to make a difference, it says, between clean and unclean, between holy and unholy, and to teach the people how to do that. This process of making a difference, learning how to differentiate between these things, is again, this is divine behavior. The verb that that verse in Leviticus 10 uses to separate is identical to the verb that God uses when He divides light from darkness, when He divides waters from waters, when He divides land from land. When we make these kinds of distinctions, we are engaging in divine behavior. I was talking to one of my Jewish friends the other day, I had just gotten off teaching an evening class, and he was joking about, well, at least you can have a cup of coffee to do it. And I said, I'll drink coffee the day you eat bacon, rabbi. Part of the purpose of our food laws is the same thing. It's to make distinctions. It's to make difference. In some ways, do these things matter? Sure. I mean, if you're too much bacon, yes, you'll die. That's fine. But if you're too much of anything, in some ways, yes, you'll die. But the experience of saying, Oh no, I can't drink that. I don't drink coffee. The experience of saying, Oh no, I can't drink that. I don't drink tea. That makes distinction. That makes division.

Speaker 1:
[13:52] So it might not be that there's some scientific reason, some chemical reason, some physical reason necessarily. It's just that we are setting ourselves apart even in diet. Is that fair?

Speaker 2:
[14:05] That is fair, even though all the ancients drank wine, although it is worth remembering that the primary table beverage is wine mixed with water. And it's usually like one part to six parts or one part to 10 parts. We're talking about them drinking wine. They're not drinking a lot of wine in that sense, but they're drinking enough wine to kill all the bugs that are in their water. But that's in some ways irrelevant to what God is saying, which is, you're mine. Because you're mine, you do something different.

Speaker 3:
[14:40] I think so too. At least in our day, might cause some conversations. I had a student just come up to me this week. He said, well, my brother says that wine's okay because Jesus drank wine and how is that a problem? And I said, well, let's just talk about in Jesus' day, they had different dietary laws. But in our day, the Lord probably saw what's everybody going to drink? One of three things at least, alcohol, tea or coffee. And that's going to create a lot of conversations for you. When someone offers you this, you're going to go, I don't drink that. Really? Why not? I could just see the Lord going, what should we choose? Now, those will be good. That'll create a lot of conversation, a chance for my distinct people to tell people why they are.

Speaker 2:
[15:35] And then always negative. For example, I was in graduate school. I was in a class, it was on Jerusalem. It was mostly Jews in the class because of the nature of the program I was in there at Ohio State. And this girl had just come back from a study abroad in Turkey. She had bought a Turkish coffee maker. She was going to bring coffee for the whole class. It was really exciting whenever this whole coffee set. And I said, Oh, well, I don't drink coffee. And she said, Well, I said, look, it's against my religion. And she was so excited to meet a Christian with dietary laws. Interesting. Her entire life, she said, No, I can't do that. I'm Jewish. I can't do that because I'm Jewish. And people say, I can't do that. I'm a Latter-day Saint. She actually ended up bringing me orange juice separately because she was so excited about this notion of dietary law. So it's not even always just this mission thing, sometimes there's a connection to be made there by saying, No, I don't do that.

Speaker 1:
[16:32] Can I sing you guys a song that I heard on a bus in Israel? And I can't remember who it was, Hank, just singing about how in Islam, they don't eat pork and the Jews don't eat pork. So it's like a song being sung by a Jew to a Muslim or a Muslim to a Jew. You don't eat pigs. We don't eat pigs. Seems it's been that way forever. And since you don't eat pigs and we don't eat pigs, why not not eat pigs together?

Speaker 3:
[17:07] You just fixed all the Middle East problems.

Speaker 2:
[17:09] You did right there. Whatever happened, the wars, whatever, it's all done. I love how Leviticus teaches in these very embodied ways. Even something that seems really weird was like purity laws. We do this New Testament, we do it really badly, actually. The first thing we do is we associate ritual impurity with sin, and that's ridiculous. Basically, every ancient Israelite and therefore New Testament, every Jew could expect to contract some kind of ritual purity all the time. Frankly, since women contract ritual impurity every month, this is not sin, but even you have sexual relations with your wife, you're both richly impure. This is a normal part of life. Two things with this I want to talk about. One, this is why it's worth reading Leviticus, by the way, again, because you may have heard things sometimes in the New Testament, Jesus and Jairus' daughter, and he touched her even though she was a dead body, therefore he was richly impure. If they'd read Leviticus, they would know that dead bodies can transmit ritual impurity by overshadowing, which means that everybody in the room was already richly impure.

Speaker 3:
[18:18] Oh, really?

Speaker 2:
[18:19] You don't have to touch the body to get to ritual impurity. It's a different kind of it. So all the mourners, Peter, James and John, they already had ritual impurity. It's a different kind of thing. And it's important to be able to, this is independent of what is spiritually, for sure, a purely pragmatic level. When we understand Leviticus better, makes us better as the New Testament. But even with that, when you have ritual impurity, you wash with water, you're unclean until evening, and then you're done. But there's a logic there too. This is God teaching them something. I want you to imagine, this is for Hank, okay? You're going to be our guinea pig this time.

Speaker 3:
[18:55] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[18:56] You look at your shoes right now, they're not so dirty. You go to your kitchen table, you take your shoe off, and you put it on the table. Your wife says, what are you doing?

Speaker 3:
[19:09] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[19:09] Get that dirty thing off the table.

Speaker 3:
[19:12] Yeah. Are you 12?

Speaker 2:
[19:15] It wasn't dirty when it was on your foot. It became dirty when you put it in the wrong place. One of the primary ideas of purity laws is matter out of place. You've got to put things in their right places. This is why some kind of things like my blood, my other bodily substances can cause the original impurity, because they belong inside your body. This is why touching certain things is because it's in the wrong place.

Speaker 3:
[19:49] Avram, is it that word impurity we think, oh, sin?

Speaker 2:
[19:53] I think part of it is because it actually is a useful category for sin. The Book of Mormon does this all the time, which is unfortunate in some ways. The Book of Mormon uses it as a metaphor for sin, but then we take it back and forget that it's being used as a metaphor rather than this is what's actually happening.

Speaker 3:
[20:11] I've had students say that, why can't a woman who's just given birth go to the temple? She didn't do anything wrong.

Speaker 2:
[20:18] This has nothing to do with her personal state and righteousness. This only has to do with, and actually in some ways, and this is one of those pragmatic things, there's probably a hygienic aspect that's important there as well. Again, I can't read God's mind, but there may be something going on with that. One of the things that's so great about this whole thing with Leviticus is that there's logic there. There's logic in how God is doing things. There's a theory. God's laws aren't arbitrary. Even if we don't always understand the logic, there's something there that's teaching us something. And the whole point of that always is to make us like God.

Speaker 3:
[21:00] I can't imagine bringing that much money or just of my stuff and then just burn it. At least the bishop takes it and it's gonna go to something. It's gonna go to a building. It's gonna go to a publishing something, missionaries. This is, I'm making it holy by destroying it or burning the whole thing.

Speaker 2:
[21:20] On that point, right? We talk a little bit about atone. One of our readings for this come follow me is the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16. We love it because of Jesus and atonement and the priest and all this imagery for that. Let's ignore the fact that actually it's really kind of weird. There's logic there too, but it's weird because part of it is the scapegoat. It's actually for a demon who lives in the desert named Azazel. But that's what the Hebrew says. There's a demon out there. You put some sins on this, others on that, and then you go and it goes and eats it and it eats them out in the desert. So it's actually kind of a strange conception of sin. It's useful as a symbol in that it reminds us that there are things that we can't take care of ourselves.

Speaker 3:
[22:11] Speaking of Day of Atonement, we haven't talked much about this. Isn't this the most important day to them?

Speaker 2:
[22:18] It's the most holy day. The most important days probably pass over, because that's when God makes Israel. And you see this actually in Scripture, where Day of Atonement doesn't actually get a lot of truck in Scripture. You don't see much references to Day of Atonement in the prophets. You don't see references in other places. Passover is everywhere, because Passover is the primary saving story. In fact, actually, even in the Book of Mormon, they'll talk about the Passover event, the way that we talk about Jesus Christ's redemption and resurrection. What's interesting about that is actually, we then conflate, put together both Passover and Atonement. But it is the holiest day of the year. That's because this is when God is looking at us.

Speaker 3:
[23:04] This is the day the high priest does not dress in his.

Speaker 2:
[23:08] That's right. He wears just like every other priest. He wears white. This is when God opens his books, and he looks at us and he says, how are we doing? How are things going? And we look and we say, well, we're doing okay, or we're doing badly, we're doing whatever. And he writes our name down in the Book of Life and says, you guys are doing okay. But then the book's closed. Actually, this is kind of a fun connection. Doctrine and Covenants 128 here, where Joseph Smith talks about the book that God is writing, and that our records actually help go into the book that God writes. Suddenly, we're thinking, oh, these books are open. What have I done? What do I need to make right? How do I fix this? That act of atonement, the act of reconciliation happens as we turn to God, as we turn for Latter-day Saints, as we turn to Jesus and say, oh, you're right, this book is open. Please inscribe me for good in it. And here's how I'm changing to be inscribed for good, since suddenly you're watching. And again, he's always watching, but we act like it. And the day of atonement is symbolically looking and the door is open. We've got to do this. We've got to fast. We've got to be prepared. It's important in Judaism. You reconcile things in the past year. Back to the Temple recommends any unrepented, unconfessed sins, anything you need to take care of. Day of atonement, you have to do it before that, because if the books open and they're not repented of, they're going to be there when the books close. You've got to get everything fixed. There's really a nice connection between our own notions of approaching God and saying, okay, am I right? How does this work? Because again, we repent all the time, but the sacrament's a little bit different. In the same way, Jews repent all the time, but the Day of Atonement's a little bit different.

Speaker 3:
[25:10] I've always wondered that. I have a friend in Israel. Can I say his name, Jair? He said, I don't go to synagogue much. I said, when do you go? He said, Yom Kippur. I want all my sins forgiven.

Speaker 2:
[25:24] God's watching.

Speaker 3:
[25:25] Yeah. I don't know if Jair will ever hear this, John. Yeah, if he texts me, he's like, I heard you on the show. Avram, so that's chapters one through seven, this sacrificial system.

Speaker 2:
[25:41] On that, I want to add into the sacrificial system. The whole burnt offering with that teaches, each one just teaches something different. So in chapter four, you have the sin offering, terrible translation, I'm sorry. But the reason they do that is because the word for sin is chata and the word for this offering is chatat, it's an offering. I translate it as purification offering because this is the sacrifice, it's placed on the altar to purify the altar. This is the offering you do for inadvertent sin. There's stuff we do that's an act of open rebellion where we say, you know what, I know that's wrong, I'm gonna do that anyway, God. The chatat is not for that. The purification is an offering is not for that. This is the offering for what if you've done something wrong and you become aware of it. How do you work? What do you do with that? Well, I think that's really interesting for us in terms of thinking through things is, if you go to the Book of Mormon, and King Benjamin is one of those places, I mentioned earlier that atonement appears in the Book of Mormon in temple contexts. One of those contexts is in Benjamin's speech there in the Book of Mosiah, and especially when the angel is revealing to Benjamin. Chapter 3, and in 311, he started talking about this and he says, For behold, and also his blood, Jesus, atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned. This is a direct reference to the purification offering. You read back in Mosiah 2, they've been offering sacraments at the temple. Everybody in Benjamin's audience would have known that. They said, oh, that's what this is. Then what he says is, is that the reason then this works is because Jesus Christ has already covered it. So this purification offering then is a specific pointing to what Jesus has already done or will do for them. This is a really fun connection and a really important connection. I'll sometimes joke that there's no Jesus-shaped hole in the Law of Moses, by which I mean it was designed to point them to Jehovah and not always to point them to the redemption per se, the incarnation, the mortal ministry. Part of what Benjamin and Abhidhat I do is say, yes, but let me make one for you and show you where that fits. Let me plug Jesus right into that hole. A lot of what you see there in Mosiah 3 is the angel saying, here's this and here's how Jesus fits into it. It's powerful stuff. The Book of Mormon presumes and understands the Law of Moses' background in it.

Speaker 3:
[28:41] That's fantastic. Avram, I never thought I would say that I found the first seven chapters of Leviticus pretty interesting. I'm excited about this. Now, you said the next section, it starts with Chapter 8.

Speaker 2:
[28:56] That's right. This is 8 through 10. It's kind of a mini section where it's about Aaron and his family. This is where we get the kosher laws. This is where we get him being set apart. It's also where we get this weird story in Chapter 10, where this is the one narrative in Leviticus. It's a weird narrative. Two of Aaron's sons take their fire pans, I think censors what KJV has, and they offer strange fire before God, and they get killed. Nadab and Abihu are their names. Aaron has four sons, Nadab, Abihu, Ithamar and Ezia Eliezer. They get killed for this. It's this interesting story, because part of it is one of the things that's intriguing about Leviticus. We saw this a little bit in Exodus 35. It's this notion of priesthood. But as Latter-day Saints, we have a very specific idea of what priesthood is. We're not wrong. God's power, all this stuff. But that's not always what's operative in the ancient world. We traced ourselves back to Aaron as Aaronic priests. We talked about the priests at the altar. We're talking about the priests at the sacrament table. There is absolutely continuity. But there's also a difference there in that priests are primarily, of course, going to be associated with the temple, which is, I think, still something we could actually talk about more in this church. This idea that the temple is fundamentally a priestly place. I mean, that it's a place for priesthood. Of course, President Nelson and President Oaks, that actually men and women both received priesthood in the temple, received priesthood power. Thinking about that, but also this recognition that part of what the story teaches, it's very keeping with Leviticus, but maybe a little trickier for us in the modern age, is a reminder that nobody is insulated. By which I mean, being Aaron's sons, being Moses' nephews, do not protect Nadab and Abihu from breaking the commandments and from the consequences. And that's a hard lesson. It's not a nice lesson. It's an important one. We talked about this idea of temple recommends cherubim, this idea of being part of the truth of God's kingdom, is we come in at God's permission. Because He loves us so much, He says, Yeah, come on in. But the fact is, we don't get to force our way into God's kingdom. With that, we don't get to tell God what to do. You and I, you and I broadly, I don't know you and I specifically, but certainly me specifically, always wants to tell God what to do. To say, this is how I think my life should go. This is what I think is the best part of what we can do. Actually, one of my favorite verses in Doctrine and Covenants, there's Doctrine and Covenants 1. He says, what I have spoken, I have spoken. I excuse about myself. My my voice or my service, it is the same. When we do that verse, we always focus on the latter half. This is about prophets and prophetic teachings. That's great. That is absolutely part of this. But I love the first part, where God says, what I have spoken, I have spoken and I excuse not myself. I don't have to explain myself to you. Sometimes I will because I love you, but frankly, I'm in charge here. In some ways, these two sons had decided that they knew better to do it than God had done it. It's a weird story within that, but I think the principle here of, oh, okay, God, you're right. You don't need to explain yourself to me. You are in charge of this. I had experience once. Actually, it was many years ago. Actually, now at this point, I'm getting old. It was when I first went up for hire at BYU, when I first put my application in, and I did not get hired that year. Again, that's fine. These things didn't happen. I had a friend. We were in grad school together. He got a job. I remember sitting in a state conference and saying, God, this isn't fair. Why? This isn't fair. This is one of the strongest spiritual revelations I've ever had in some ways. God said, you're right, Avram, it's not fair. I'm like, okay, sure. Then it was funny because the state conference and the stake president started talking about the things that were happening in the stake, about a mother with three kids under four who had cancer and was going to die in the next three months, about poverty, about sickness, about accidents. Then after the stake president finished, again, God said, do you really want it to be fair, Avram? And I said, no, God, I'm good. We're fine. This is great. I'm okay with this. My trials are just great, Father. The story about the family, again, Leviticus cares deeply about Aaron and his family, Aaron and his two children. But part of the story teaches us is that doesn't insulate you from, A, needing to eat the commandments, and B, from any kind of hardship. That story, even though it's weird, it fits in this whole broad narrative about Leviticus and about Holiness. In some ways, it's the hard side of Holiness in that sense.

Speaker 3:
[35:01] I wrote, don't play with fire next to my. This is where that came from. It sounds like it was something unauthorized. They didn't respect Jehovah.

Speaker 2:
[35:11] The word strange there actually means foreign. Everywhere the KJV says strange, it means foreign. It doesn't mean strange like weird. Whether that's in Egyptian style, whether that's something from the Midian, a strange fire, a foreign fire, not properly Israelite. So they did something wrong. The other part of this, by the way, and this is intriguing in terms of internally, it also teaches that priests are held to a higher standard. The priesthood here is that there's more that they're required to do than other people. Aaron's not allowed to mourn his sons. He's not allowed to tear his clothes.

Speaker 3:
[35:49] He held his peace, right?

Speaker 2:
[35:51] He held his peace.

Speaker 3:
[35:52] For God will not be mocked is what that sounds like.

Speaker 1:
[35:55] I know, it really does. I saw that too.

Speaker 2:
[35:59] Very much so. For our modern age, certainly for me and for my children even, it's a harder lesson for us to listen to, God's authority. We love the loving God who holds us, but the loving God who corrects us is a lot harder.

Speaker 3:
[36:15] For me personally, that's a sobering lesson.

Speaker 2:
[36:19] This is how we learn to enter into the presence of God. God uses a teaching moment.

Speaker 3:
[36:28] That's verse 10.

Speaker 1:
[36:29] This is not the point, but it's similar. They're not insulated from having to follow the letter of the law, but it's similar that some of the most, in my view, righteous people have amazing trials. President Oaks losing his father when he was young. President Oaks losing his wife. President Nelson losing his first wife. They're not insulated from the trials.

Speaker 2:
[36:58] I had somebody in one of my wards once. They were very well-meaning. The Gospel of Jesus Christ makes things easy. Makes our lives easy. Does it? Makes things easier to deal with, but actually easier? I don't know that it does.

Speaker 3:
[37:16] You can say sin makes life hard.

Speaker 2:
[37:18] Okay. In that sense, yes.

Speaker 3:
[37:19] Yeah. None of this is easy.

Speaker 1:
[37:22] It's maybe easier, but life is just hard all the way around.

Speaker 2:
[37:28] My kids make fun of me because, and probably correctly, but from when they're very small, they're babies. I'll come for them. I'm like, I know, guys, I know. Life's hard and then you die.

Speaker 1:
[37:41] It's like a bumper sticker. Dad.

Speaker 2:
[37:43] Exactly. But I actually find that to honestly be incredibly, incredibly comforting. Sometimes you just need to sit out and say, you know what? This is just hard and then it's over and it's whatever. We don't have to imagine that somehow there's some kind of special thing in life that makes everything easier for us.

Speaker 3:
[38:03] My mother-in-law used to say when we had twin babies, which you've done Avram, she said, sometimes when you can't take it anymore, go out on the porch, sit down and tell the Lord you're done, and then get up and go back in and keep going. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[38:22] We have some examples of scripture of that. Even this, you see, after this whole thing in Leviticus 10, Moses is like, what are you doing to my brother? God's like, look here, and then it says Moses was content, that God says, no, he can still do this. Moses says, okay, God, that's enough.

Speaker 3:
[38:42] He was content. That's verse 20. Then there's more dietary laws.

Speaker 2:
[38:47] 12 through about 16 is mostly purity laws. It's leprosy laws, laws after childbirth. One thing I do want to say, in Leviticus, actually in the entire Old Testament and most of the New Testament, leprosy never refers to what you think of as leprosy. It is not Hansen's disease. The Hebrew word is tsaarat. It's a wide variety of skin diseases, psoriasis, really bad eczema. And you know it's not Hansen's disease because it can be healed. And there are rules for what you do when it goes away. And of course, Hansen's disease never goes away. It just kills you because as a Jewish concept, as a biblical concept, tsaarat is this whole panoply of diseases. It could be one of those.

Speaker 3:
[39:38] Yeah, because you read this, you think, wow, leprosy is super common. The Lord really wants to talk about it, but it's any sort of skin disease, wide variety.

Speaker 2:
[39:45] It's stuff that causes ritual impurity.

Speaker 3:
[39:48] The shoes on the counter.

Speaker 2:
[39:49] Exactly. It's the kind of skin disease that makes things difficult. That's why he looks at it and he says, okay, is it this kind of skin disease, that kind of skin disease? Which are these that actually qualify in these categories? These purity laws, they have different ways of transmitting, and there's a logic to it, and it's very much God's way of putting things in their proper places.

Speaker 1:
[40:08] Interesting.

Speaker 3:
[40:09] I loved that example of putting your shoes on the table. That makes sense. Don't bring that in here.

Speaker 2:
[40:15] They're animals. They're called sherrits, like mice and lizards and stuff. They're impure, again, because there's a little bit of ickiness that then feeds into how this works in terms of what God is teaching us about ourselves. Again, it's a symbol in terms of, yes, that's gross, and here's what you can mean with that for some of this stuff. Some of it's broad purity things, and for most things, the solution is just washing with water.

Speaker 1:
[40:38] There's hygiene things in the Law of Moses that were very practical and should have. If people had done them, really would have helped with infection and everything else.

Speaker 2:
[40:49] This I think is part of the genius of God's laws. Because God sees and knows and does more than we do, either the purpose, something like the Word of Wisdom, something like the diet laws. Even if the primary purpose is to teach us to separate ourselves, the primary purpose to do that doesn't mean it's not good for you to not do these things.

Speaker 1:
[41:13] There's a good consequence in there perhaps, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[41:16] Same with washing your hands. Same thing with, like again, the woman who separated because of after giving birth, richly impure. We used to have this thing where women would, I said babies, there's a recovery time that we in the modern age don't talk about. We expect women just bounce back right afterwards. Giving birth is hard on the body. There's stuff that happens afterwards that needs to be taken care of. Even though it's framed as sexual purity, it actually provides a useful benefit there. There's this intriguing thing within that that teaches something about separation, but also says maybe take some time and rest a little bit. And let the woman recover. There's some misogyny in the law too, because it's an ancient law code. But God, of course, is not. And He's there saying, let me find ways to help you guys help each other.

Speaker 3:
[42:07] I like that. Let me help you help each other. Avram, what do you want to do next?

Speaker 2:
[42:13] 1726 is called The Holiness Code. It's an entire self-contained law code. One of the things we see, actually, in the Old Testament broadly is we have this broad law of Moses. Within it, there's one of these sub-collections. There's a covenant code in Exodus. There's a nonistic code. And here, this is the Holiness Code. The whole thing is about how do we be holy? In some ways, I like to think of it as the handbook of instructions. The basis for Latter-day Saint religion in practice is the doctrine and covenants. Dr. Evans 20, the Constitution of the Church. When we say, where are we getting this from? We're getting it from the doctrine and covenants. But of course, the Church in 2026 doesn't look like the Church in 1830. In terms of priest organization, in terms of hierarchies, Joseph Smith never went to a sacrament meeting because there weren't any in his entire lifetime, right? But we can say, our Church is built on doctrine and covenants. That is the basis of revelation for our religion, even though what we're doing is building off of, extrapolating from, and we see that happening with the law. Moses received the law from Mount Sinai. But we see places where they're building from, extrapolating from, it looks like. We see different people, different crimes, extrapolating that an editor like Mormon has put together for us. It's kind of like having instructions from 1969, and from 2013, and from 2026, all together in the same volume. This explains, for example, Exodus 20 has a slavery law that says, if you have an Israelite slave, after seven years, you let them go free. Deuteronomy has a slavery law that says, if you have an Israelite slave, after seven years, you let them go free, and you give them stuff. You give them gifts to set them up in life after you freed them. The Vietis 25, our Holiness Code here, has a slavery law that says, you can't make Israelite slaves. All three of those are clearly built around the same idea, but they're building it in different ways because they appear to be different instantations of God's law in different times and different places. Because of course, there are two reasons to make laws. One reason to make a law is because somebody is doing it and you want it to stop. That's one reason to make a law. The other reason to make a law is to say, this is something that we believe in that matters to us. You see that in some of our commandments, you see that in some things where, in doctrine and covenants especially, right? You guys are doing this bad. You can do better at this. And they're clearly commanding us for God is like, this is the kind of people I want you to be. So don't do that. That's never, it's ever actually been a problem. Just don't do that so it never becomes a problem.

Speaker 3:
[45:23] That's important.

Speaker 2:
[45:24] And in some ways, a lot of the Laws and Holiness Code feel like that to me, demarcating what it means to be an Israelite. So it's certain behaviors, certain foreign practices are forbidden, magical practices, divination practices. Don't eat blood because blood is where life is. This is why Jews, by the way, don't eat blood in their meat. Kosher meat, you slaughter it, but you slit their throat as quickly as possible you can, and you hang it till all the blood drains out. Because if you eat something's blood, you're eating its life. It says we don't need to eat the life. It's respect for the life.

Speaker 3:
[46:01] This has been very enlightening. And it does help me think of the New Testament, which I teach more often than the Old. Oh, that makes sense. That plays into a story about Jesus.

Speaker 2:
[46:13] Like in the very beginning of this, Leviticus is the book. When they're talking about the Law of Moses, they mean all of it, but they start with Leviticus. Leviticus is the single most important book in Jewish thinking.

Speaker 3:
[46:30] This is the book Jesus read.

Speaker 2:
[46:32] This is the book Jesus read. This is the book he thought from and it's the book his opponents read. Of course, to our famous verse, part of being like God is being good to eat other people, being willing to treat people the way that God treats them. Which of course is why he says, look guys, don't avenge or bear grudge and love your neighbor like you. Leviticus 19, 18, when Jesus is looking for places to teach, I always bring this up when we talk about in this church, we talk about, we don't live in the Law of Moses anymore. I'm like, well, we don't offer certain animal sacrifices anymore. We don't live certain purity laws anymore. But there are absolutely parts of the Law of Moses that we still 100% absolutely live. I don't even like the distinction between higher and lower law. I don't think it's useful. Because if we talk about, well, what's the higher law? Well, the higher law is to love God with all your heart, straight out of Deuteronomy. And the higher law is to love your neighbor, like yourself, straight out of Leviticus. This idea that somehow we're dividing up. Now, we can talk about more knowledge of Jesus. We can talk about ordinances. Maybe there's something higher law, lower law in terms of ordinances. Because of course, the tabernacle in there for the temple was basically exclusively Aaronic ordinances. In our temples, we perform both Aaronic and Melchizedek ordinances. So there may be something in that. But in terms of what God actually wants to do and what the law's purpose is, the law of Moses, it's God's highest law. In the sense of love God, love your neighbor is straight out of the law of Moses. It's straight out of Deuteronomy. It's straight out of Leviticus.

Speaker 1:
[48:36] That's a great insight. I like that.

Speaker 2:
[48:39] Something I encourage our listeners, ask yourself, if I were to do this, would I be a better person? Would this help me to be a better follower of Jesus? And the answer is yes, then do it.

Speaker 1:
[48:56] That's a good idea.

Speaker 2:
[48:59] Just to 9 to 11, don't steal, don't lie. This is Leviticus, a version of 10 Commandments. 19, 13, don't steal from people, don't rob. Don't take the wages of somebody that's hired. Even says, don't even wait to pay them. If you hired them to a job and they finished your job, don't sit on that money. That's their money. So even how you treat employees, don't curse the disabled or differently abled, those who have difficulties, they're not there for you to make fun of. Don't gossip. All these things we read in Leviticus 19 are really, really important behaviors for us to being like how God wants us to be.

Speaker 3:
[49:41] A tale-bearer.

Speaker 2:
[49:43] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[49:46] I was going to ask you how you feel about the myth that, oh, the Old Testament God, he's angry and the New Testament God, oh, he's so kind. And then you read Leviticus 19. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Don't steal. Don't lie. Don't gossip.

Speaker 2:
[50:05] A couple of things. On some levels, the myth is rooted in occasionally anti-Semitic ways of talking about things. The Old Testament's the Jewish book, the New Testament's the Christian. Sometimes it falls into that in respects to previous things. So we need to be always very careful about that. Oh, the Old Testament's an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. And it does say that. But as I've argued before and I'll continue to argue, it's a law about limits. Only an eye for an eye, only a tooth for a tooth. If I get in a fight with John and John punches out my tooth, I can't then gouge out his eye. Yeah, that's not the worst.

Speaker 1:
[50:44] It needs to be the same one too. Right.

Speaker 2:
[50:47] Even in my Jesus Christ Never-Lesson Gospel class, I'll do this. I'll say, okay, give me some words to describe the God of the Old Testament. And they'll say harsh and unforgiving. I'll say, okay. Now give me some words to describe Jesus. And they'll say loving and forgiving and approachable. And then I'll, because I'm that kind of guy, put up a quote from President Nelson or President Oaks where they say, we need to recognize that Jesus is Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament. And I said, so how do we reconcile the fact that according to our doctrine, these are not just whatever, these are actually the exact same person. They're taking it back a little bit here for this. They said some of this, of course, is we're not, as you point out, we're not good enough readers of the Old Testament. We don't read closely enough because again, the Old Testament insists Jehovah's mercy. The idea that justice and mercy are competing categories is a Book of Mormon notion. Now, I love the Book of Mormon and I'm not going to say, not to run out of the Book of Mormon. But in the Old Testament, God's justice and God's mercy are the exact same thing. God is merciful because He is just and He cannot be merciful unless He is just. There's a great quote from President Holland where he said, this would be all devotional many years ago now, where he said, as scary as it is to imagine a just God, imagine how much scarier an unjust God would be to imagine. But this myth comes from focusing on something like Leviticus 10 and not Leviticus 19, or in something like Exodus 32 and not in Exodus 35. It also comes, of course, from focusing on some parts of the Gospel, but not other parts of the Gospel. Jesus says to people who abuse children, it's better for them to have a giant rock tied around their neck and be drowned.

Speaker 3:
[52:48] Yeah, and you haven't read Matthew 23. Woe unto you scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites. You're like a cup that's dirty on the inside and clean on the outside.

Speaker 2:
[52:59] By the way, that's a reference to purity laws in Leviticus, incidentally.

Speaker 3:
[53:02] Hey.

Speaker 2:
[53:03] Cups of insides and outsides comes from Leviticus.

Speaker 3:
[53:05] Write that down.

Speaker 2:
[53:07] Let's back to this idea we talked about sort of earlier here in Leviticus 10. This idea of telling God what He can do and who He can be. It's the idea of saying, well, obviously, what makes God good is being nice to me.

Speaker 1:
[53:23] Yeah. Answering all my prayers and fixing all my problems.

Speaker 2:
[53:29] Even though we understand doctrinally, we understand whatever that that's not the case, each and every one of us feels that inherently. Inherently, we all feel that what makes God good is being good to me. We need to recognize that God is good, and God is kind, and God is just. So whatever God does will be good and kind and just. But good and kind and just is not the same thing as nice. That's hard. I'm not suggesting that we who are less good and less kind and less just should not be nice. Let's be nice. The phrase in the Old Testament, we talked about this about how he is slow to anger, it says. It says he's a jealous God. It says, for God is a jealous God, visiting iniquity on the sins of the third and fourth. And then we stop there. And it says, but showing mercy on the thousands of generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. He's slow to anger, quick to forgive. The Old Testament continuously insists on God's mercy. That is the chief characteristic they see in Jehovah is how much he follows them and loves them. So I think you're absolutely right, Hank. It's a myth. It's a myth rooted in misdemeanor in ancient culture. It's a myth rooted in trying to compare Jesus to whatever. It's a myth rooted in our own desire to want God to be nice to us. Let's go to our discussion earlier about trials. There's a great Midrash in a Jewish text called Mechil to the Rabbi Yishmael. It's a Midrash in Exodus. One of the rabbis, he says, we are not like other nations. It says, other nations, they praise their gods when things go good, and they curse them when things go bad. But we, we praise our God when things go good, and we praise our God when things go bad. In many ways, it's that perspective that we need to have to see how merciful really God is.

Speaker 1:
[55:52] Sounds like Job.

Speaker 2:
[55:54] Yes, very much like Job.

Speaker 1:
[55:55] Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

Speaker 2:
[55:58] Blessed be the name of my Lord.

Speaker 1:
[56:00] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[56:00] When I've had moments where I felt like that, where I'm like, there's been a lot more taken away than given right now, God.

Speaker 3:
[56:10] But hallelujah anyway.

Speaker 2:
[56:12] Exactly. Hallelujah anyway. You are my God, and I'm not going to leave you just because things feel difficult.

Speaker 1:
[56:21] Otherwise, it's just a transaction. It's the vending machine. If you give me what I want, then I really like you.

Speaker 2:
[56:29] Covenants are about relationships. When God talks about being a holy people, He's not talking about jumping you through hulps so you could be a certain kind of whatever. He's talking about you entered a relationship with me. Of course, President Nelson of Blessed Name and Memory introduced the Church broadly to the chesed. You do your chesed. You do what I ask. I'll do my chesed or whatever, but we're bound together. Sometimes that means that you think about your own relationships. Sometimes that means I'll give more. Of course, God always gives more than we possibly can. This is not an equal relationship. But covenants are about relationships and what the Law of Moses is trying to do in Leviticus and anywhere else is say, this is what I want you to do in my relationship. This is what we're doing together because we're in this together.

Speaker 3:
[57:24] We're in this together.

Speaker 1:
[57:26] Avram, I have noticed the Law of Moses being addressed so much in The Book of Mormon. I'm excited to tell our audience that you have recently written about the Law of Moses in The Book of Mormon. Can you tell us more about that?

Speaker 2:
[57:42] Yeah, sure. Thank you. It's been a long time project. I've been working on it for in some ways far too long. But I'm publishing a book with Greg Cofford Books. It's forthcoming. We're hoping to have it out this year. Really in this book, I work through everywhere I can see where the Law of Moses is hitting on the ground, sometimes in places that are more usual, easy to see. Other times, they were like, this is not something we think is the Law of Moses, but they absolutely would have been seeing a Law of Moses basis for this. Places where there's sacrifice, places where they're talking about making oath. I walk through the Book of Mormon, sort of analyzing where these are coming from. The idea is if you're ever interested in, is there anything about the Law in 2nd E5-5? Here's at least what one guy saw about it.

Speaker 1:
[58:34] I bet this increased your testimony of the antiquity of the Book of Mormon. Because what, did Joe Smith just make that up, put that in there?

Speaker 2:
[58:42] In terms of making space for us to testify, there's a lot there where suddenly the Book of Mormon is incredibly rooted, not just in the Bible, in the Law of Moses.

Speaker 3:
[58:57] I love it. John, today has been so helpful.

Speaker 1:
[59:02] Yeah, really good information.

Speaker 4:
[59:05] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:05] I feel more curious and interested about Leviticus.

Speaker 4:
[59:10] Yeah, me too.

Speaker 3:
[59:12] I can see what Avram said when he said there's beauty in order. That's a lot of what this is. Clear boundaries, I want two rings here, I want two chains of gold here. There's beauty in that.

Speaker 2:
[59:27] Things in their proper places.

Speaker 1:
[59:29] Yeah, I like the idea of a place for everything and everything in its place. It sounds like a Leviticus idea.

Speaker 2:
[59:35] It does, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[59:37] John, I'm sad I saw this at the end. Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head. I should have described you that way.

Speaker 1:
[59:45] The hoary head?

Speaker 3:
[59:46] The hoary head. It means old age. It means rise up, stand up when an old age.

Speaker 1:
[59:52] Hoary, I can't hear you.

Speaker 2:
[59:54] Hoary is white, so the hoary head is the white hairs.

Speaker 1:
[59:58] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[59:59] Go find someone with white hair and say, hey, you're a hoary head. See how that goes over. Avram, this has been a really good day. It's so fun.

Speaker 2:
[60:08] Honestly, very beginning, why do I love Leviticus? Because I find God there. That's why I love Leviticus. I find God. More importantly, he finds me. I appreciate you letting me talk about it a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[60:22] You know, going back to Fiddler on the Roof, Tevye wanted to be a rich man, but why? So he could talk about the holy books with the rabbis. I love that that was the whole why that he had. I would just love to sit and talk about the holy books. And that's what we got to do.

Speaker 3:
[60:40] With that, we want to thank Dr. Avram Shannon for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And in every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We're continuing in the Five Books of Moses on FollowHIM. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co, that's followhim.co, to download your free copy today. And you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our FollowHIM family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith and Annabel Sorensen.

Speaker 4:
[61:39] Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.