transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] You're gonna have some setbacks along the way, but setbacks aren't campsites.

Speaker 2:
[00:04] We've taken some wild swings over the years.

Speaker 1:
[00:06] It seems like all my good mischief involves Miles Adcox at some point.

Speaker 2:
[00:10] I think if you've mastered any craft, it's taking a risk in going to do things.

Speaker 1:
[00:14] I'm the only guy in Somalia wearing a white dress. I came running in and said, code rainbow. It was not a rainbow that happened in the pool. Fail trying, don't fail watching.

Speaker 2:
[00:28] When I can have compassion and empathy on myself, it makes it sustainable for me to be able to give that to other people.

Speaker 1:
[00:33] Don't beat yourself up. I just keep on repeating myself, I'm not a piñata. Because when you hit yourself, it's not candy that comes out to you. It's like code rainbow, right? Take what it is that you're known for and take that away. And whatever's left is who you are.

Speaker 2:
[00:50] This friendship has stood the test of time. And also we've leaned into the hard edges and the dark corners.

Speaker 1:
[00:55] You've known me in some of my darkest time.

Speaker 2:
[00:57] I've learned a lot about friendship from the way we've navigated our relationship over the years.

Speaker 1:
[01:02] You kid me, I'd walk across broken glass for you.

Speaker 2:
[01:05] We've probably done that for each other at some point.

Speaker 1:
[01:07] For the limited period of time that we have left, let's go make some moves.

Speaker 2:
[01:13] We've been taught everything except how to be human. I'm Miles Adcox and this podcast turns raw experience into practical wisdom. So if you're ready to stop performing your life and start participating in it, you're in the right place. This is Human School. Purpose is one of those things we all think about, but far fewer of us actually live into it. Because living into it usually asks something of us. It asks us to take risk, to step into the unknown, to do things that feel out of reach. Every now and then, you meet someone who just says yes to that. Today's guest is one of those people for me. Most people know him for the life he's built. A two-time New York Times best-selling author, an honorary consul to Uganda, and the founder of Love Does, one of my favorite NGOs and nonprofits that advocates for children, education, and communities in conflict zones across the globe for the past 24 years, that's hard to believe. But what people may not always see is the depth behind all of it. We've traveled the world together. We've shared some really meaningful moments along the way. And somewhere in the middle of all that, a genuine friendship took shape. One that I've come to value more with time. He's the kind of person who shows up when it counts. Steady, present, with a heart that's always looking for a way to serve and support others. That's who he is. And I am so grateful to call him one of my dearest friends. Please welcome to Human School, my buddy Bob Goff.

Speaker 1:
[02:43] Hey, thanks, Miles. So good to be with you, buddy.

Speaker 2:
[02:45] It's good to be with you, too.

Speaker 1:
[02:46] Any excuse, so do, but this is even a better one. I remember when Human School was some of you were kind of pushing the peas around on the plate. And so now it's like actually a thing. I'm so proud.

Speaker 2:
[02:57] Thank you. And thank you for making time to come. I know you're not doing many of these anymore. The podcast and interviews and the speaking back a few years ago, you were burning up the road, you know, given parts of your wisdom to everybody. So it means even more that you'd come have a conversation with me, especially across the country.

Speaker 1:
[03:12] So you kid me, I'd walk a class across broken glass.

Speaker 2:
[03:17] We've probably done that for each other at some point. Well, this is, you know, with any new endeavor, and I still feel like we're in the new part of this season of the show, you know, you get started with friends. And I've, I've been fortunate, I've peppered in a few guests that haven't been close friends and a couple that I were just meeting for the first time. But for the most part, I've tried to anchor this thing with friends because I really, I think if anything, if there's any tool for humanity that can make it better, it's relationships and friendships. And I don't know where this will go, but I can tell you if there's a theme I thought about coming into it as I'm sitting in front of one of my really close friends. And I think I've learned a lot about friendship from the way we've navigated our relationship over the years. And I know there'll be some proof for people to take from that. But there's probably some stories that I'd love for you to share that. I remember you and I were talking when you were mentoring me as a speaker early on, because I do believe you're one of the greatest storytellers I've ever been around, and you just do it so naturally, it just falls out. And you said, I get tired, I do so much, I get tired of telling the same stories. And I'm always wanting to come up with new stories. And then I even said then, I said yes and no. I said, in a way, the reason I like to go see Garth Brooks play is I know I'm going to get his greatest hits.

Speaker 1:
[04:34] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[04:35] And we talked. You remember that conversation?

Speaker 1:
[04:36] Totally remember that.

Speaker 2:
[04:38] And it kind of gave both of us a break. It's like, you know what, there's some anchor stories that we both have that we should never shy away from. You know, because they kind of define who we are and who we're becoming. And I'm curious for you. There's lots of stories I could tell about you. There's lots of stories you could tell, many of which have been in a book and lots of people have read. But is there an anchor story that has formed or continues to shape who you are, what you've done and who you continue to become?

Speaker 1:
[05:04] Yeah, I think of a thing that you and I started ages ago, I don't know, eight, nine years ago out at San Quentin. Remember, we went the first time and we were teaching a class there. And then the classes continued. Some of these guys have graduated, they've paroled out. Actually, one of my friends there has paroled into San Diego.

Speaker 2:
[05:27] Oh, really?

Speaker 1:
[05:28] Because I'm there, I'm 100% of his friends. And today, because I've been traveling, he's only called me four times. But here was the interesting thing, it was yesterday, it was the first time he's washing his clothes in 27 years, nine months and seven days. He hasn't had to wash his own clothes. And so he's like, what do you do? And I'm like, well, I don't know, all my white shirts are pink. I don't know how to do that. But just to learn all the pieces, maybe learning among the things that I'm trying to get my mind around is context for each person. Because we think that we share a common context, but we actually don't because people have undisclosed or hurts that they're just becoming aware of and they have things that have gone great that they bring into it. And so just understanding those things that I think those are the stories that are most meaningful to me right now. We had a gathering out at the Oaks, which is another caper you and I have done. It seems like all my good mischief involves Miles Adcox at some point. But we had all these guys that have paroled out and at one time we had him down doing the cold plunge. And there's a whole bunch of tubs with all the ice in it and the guys went out there. When I went down, there was like they were doing synchronized swimming because all their left legs were out. It's because they're ankle bracelets. Context. So just understanding how it came to pass. I think that's what I'm trying to do now. Be as a trial lawyer in a former life, you make quick judgments about who people are. I think we do that. And this is more your field than mine. But are people safe? Are they not safe? And then you have an experience of somebody who you thought was safe. And then they're actually, oh, yikes, they're like not safe. And how do you navigate that? I'm so glad that there's people like you and your team that help people figure out how tricky people are and how our minds plays tricks on us. But this fella came, he's in for 17 counts of armed robbery. I'm not going to say his name, but he's, you know, I don't know, maybe 38. He's been in San Quentin for 20 years and just got out and I let him bring a plus one. And when we sat down at some stools in the front with all the other guys there, I said, hey, what are you dreaming about? Like, what do you want your next move to be? And he said what it was. And I had some people already in the back on GoDaddy, and they got a domain name for them, and they set up emails, all that. And I turned to his girlfriend, his plus one and said, is that amazing, you know, what your boyfriend has done? And she said, I'm his mom. She had him when she was 15, context. In his 17 counts of armed robbery, he decided, he was in Oakland, and decided he wanted an Xbox. So he went to a GameStop and swiped an Xbox, but he had a pistol in his waistband when he did it. And he had no business swiping anything from anybody, and he sure didn't have business having a gun on him. But then he got home, he's like, no games. So he went to another GameStop and swiped a game, but he had a pistol in his waistband. He did that, he did this 15 more times. 17 counts of armed robbery, 20 years. Total haul, $1,100. Cost to keep him in San Quentin, $98,000 a year. Not an indictment of the prison system, but it's some context. So if we meet people, we think we got him figured when we say like 17 counts of armed robbery, like, you know, you shake hands, you want to count your fingers. But then you understand a little bit more context, you get to know them and know this is his mom, and maybe more context. And I think just slowing it down a little bit, where right now we're in a hurry to get everybody figured out or so we think. And I just like to slow it down a little bit. How do you do that?

Speaker 2:
[09:40] Well, it seems like a superpower of yours. And I've chosen a field that kind of requires that as a first move. You know, if we're going to do anything to try to help you sort through the hard parts of your story and connect dots in your life to ideally optimize who you are, your relationships, your faith, your health, it's we got to build a bridge. And a bridge doesn't get built without a lot of trust. And I mean, people are going to cross one unless you trust it's not going to fall. And so how do we build trust? Well, you got to first build connection. How do you build connection? Well, it never starts with judgment. It always starts with an empathy and somebody who's curious about context in somebody else's life. So I feel like I'm naturally wired to do that as well. And I've done it as a vocation. One of the things I really respect about, well, you asked me how. Let me think about how. I think to refine that skill, I do think there are people who naturally have it. But I think to refine it and to make it sustainable, because I don't always hold it the way I'd like to hold it. I'm a human. Sometimes I do get judgy, especially at home. That's the hardest time not to. But to keep an open stance about people who maybe have done some things that I might even not appreciate and still be able to see the human behind that, I have to see clearly the human in me that's still trying to find their way. And that took some time, because there was a part of me that felt misunderstood in a season of life. Even by myself, I was a little bit lost. I got a little bit, and I had to go back and develop a good relationship with that part. And I still have to do that over and over again. When I get insecure, when I get unsteady, when I get out over my skis, when I make mistakes, the old part of me would have been hypercritical of that. The new part of me is like, it's all right, buddy, we got it, we know what we're doing. And when I can have compassion and empathy on myself, it makes it sustainable for me to be able to give that to other people. So that's part of my how.

Speaker 1:
[11:42] Yeah, part of the thing, born from a mutual friend of our, Mike Foster, he talks about being on to yourself and just know your tells. If you and I were playing poker right now, Tennessee, we should be. Like five card stud or something. If I had four of a kind, I would just be cracking up. I could not hide it. I got no poker face. When it comes to that, I'd be just so tickled about the whole thing. I'd probably tell you, I'd show them to you. If you're like, check this out. But to know what your tells are. And so if you find yourself going back, if you've been wounded, you've been really helpful for me in this. Like back to the scene of the crime. And then even though the little chalk outline of your emotions or back there five or six years, like you bring it forward today like it just happened. Like you're just like it and you feel it. And the other person has probably moved on. They're doing all kinds of other things. But you are back at that emotion at that time and you're feeling it like it just happened. So I find being on to myself, if I'm like overreacting to something, I'm not reacting to what just happened. I'm reacting to my entire life. And so to realize that like, or if you're underreacting to say, it's somebody that matters to you, passes away and then you can't shed a tear because what is up? Just being on to yourself, knowing that maybe this is you, that you've gotta figure this out a little at a time. And so finding people that can help you, I think less guide and more sherpa.

Speaker 2:
[13:24] Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1:
[13:24] You know, like the guide is gonna pick them out and you go up and make all the meals, but a sherpa will let you pick your mountain. I think that's what you do at Onsite. You say, what mountain you want to climb? And then you just have ruffled through my backpack all the time. And you just say, you don't need those nine ropes. It can help you get there. And a good sherpa will break trail and set the ropes. And say, you want to get up there faster? I would carry a little bit less. And then I just go follow these ropes.

Speaker 2:
[13:54] Yeah, well, one thing I got to say that you helped me strike a better balance around early in our friendship is here's two guys that came together. And I love our origin story about how we met. We may end up telling it later. But we came together in an unlikely time, unlikely friends in a way. It came from different parts of the world and we're doing different things. But we had one thing in common. We loved helping and serving people. And that was at the time how both of us were making our living and trying to live our lives, not just the people around us, but a wider circle. But how we went about helping people was different. I was coming through the lens of psychology and you were coming through another lens. And both had interesting pieces. But early on when I would say we were getting to know each other and you were pushing into my lane a little bit, like, tell me about this, tell me about this, just questioning some of the things. They were right to be questioned. So I want to bring that up right now which is I think our industry in some ways, mainstream psychology has done a great job at helping drive home the point of self-awareness and how it's important. Understand yourself like, what was it you said Foster's Line was?

Speaker 1:
[15:00] Yeah, just be on to yourself.

Speaker 2:
[15:02] Be on to yourself like we're talking. But if you're not careful and all you do is focus on you, and all you do is study yourself, you'll go from being self-aware to self-absorbed. And I think you helped me early on because you asked me that question. You said, I get the concept of really understanding your origin story, going back into it. How does it show up in real time? But how do you not get stuck studying your belly button? I think is what you said one time a long time ago. And I was like, that's a great point. And I think as I've evolved and grown in my field, I would say that is one of the downsides to mainstream therapy, even though I think there's way more upside, is that if there's not an element of other in the mix, in the origin, I think for some people, often their medicator is other, so they're chasing other people trying to reconcile their own story. Hello, I've done that a lot. But I think you've got to strike that balance so that self-awareness doesn't become self-absorbed.

Speaker 1:
[15:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:55] You help me get there.

Speaker 1:
[15:56] Yeah, no, I get that idea. Yeah, I've always pictured, as you were saying that, an hourglass, and there's the sand that's up on top, and there's the sand at the bottom. So like, some people are just talking about the sand that's already gone through the funnel. And that's a good thing. You should be well aware of that. And I probably err on the side of what might be possible in the future, probably to the exclusion of the pain of what they're, just because it's just so painful to go back to that stuff. There's like, am I wanted, you know, be feeling misunderstood and all that. And I just realized we're just going to be misunderstood, because you and I were in Mogadishu, Somalia together. I have yet to go and not get shot at. You're just here on the site. It's not like they're aiming at you. It's just like a really violent hello. So I don't blend. So like that idea of being misunderstood just for no other reason. You haven't even said anything to anybody. But to put yourself in those places where you're willing to be misunderstood, that actually whether faith guides your steps might put you in those things, those positions, whether it's your love for humanity, and sign me up for all those things. Faith is a big deal for me trying to be like just up for humanity. It's like love people. And I fail at it all the time, constantly. So you have this high value and then you miss it all the time. And then one of the guys that wrote a letter, Paul, he's like, I keep not doing what I want to do and I don't get around to do what I do. That's just Tuesday for me. There's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and a long weekend. And we repeat again. So instead of beating yourself up, I've learned through you and some good friends just that part of just acceptance that we're deeply flawed. And yet not resigning to that, but to say, hey, what might be possible?

Speaker 2:
[17:56] Well, you when I ask you for a story, a foundational story, you went straight into a story of stepping in to try to understand the misunderstood and to try to love, in many cases, the unlovable, i.e., going straight into San Quentin. But as I think back, we've done that since I've known you. Mogadishu was one stop. Talk about being misunderstood when we went to Iraq the first time. I think it was your second time, maybe. And I went the first time, or I can't remember, maybe in our first time where we were going. But I did a little homework and I was like, I better grow a beard. I want to blend in. We were in Northern Iraq with the Kurds, and I got off the airplane and I saw no men with beards. I was like, where's the razor?

Speaker 1:
[18:44] I know the first time I went to Somalia, I got ahold of the Somali community in San Diego. I said, hey, what should I wear to blend in? And there's this thing called a kanzo. It's like a white dress, but dudes wear it. And they say, you'd need a kanzo. So I gave the guy 30 bucks, I got a white dress. I stepped off the plane, I'm the only guy in Somalia wearing a white dress. I'm like, you're like, no!

Speaker 2:
[19:15] Well, yeah, I remember we got tailored suits. Was that in Iraq, too? I can't remember. It was one of the countries we stopped in. We got tailored suits from this really great Arab tailor. And I've still got mine. I don't fit in anymore, but actually I never wore it past that one day, but it was the wildest garment I'd ever bought, but it was really fun. So if I go back, we've got stories for days we could tell from some of these places we went. But if you think about why you initiated these trips, these were some of the hot spots in the world, conflict zones, places that are not easy to go to, places that you get lucky to come home from in some cases. But you had a hunch that the people there could use some love and that likely we might not have context on the whole story. And you seem to have replicated that into one of the biggest NGO, one of the most, let me say this, one of the most impactful NGOs out there. I think there are bigger NGOs and I've been around that world, but I don't know many. And I've been to your mothership in Uganda, but I've also been to a lot of other of your projects, helped with some of them here and there. And it is wildly impactful and it's so targeted and it's so specific. And you guys have found a way to do it. And I know you've got a great team running it now and you're not as directly involved, but you found a way to do it that kind of cuts through the clutter and trims all the fat and gets real lean on what it's trying to do. And I just wonder, I've seen you as a business partner of yours, as a friend, put the old trial attorney hat on here and there. And it's so interesting because I didn't know you in that lifetime. I got to know you after that lifetime, a big chunk of your life was one of the more successful attorneys in Southern California. And I've just heard about some of those stories. But even then, it was like you had a way to clear the path, to lower the noise and to go straight into somebody's heart and try to support them and help them. And then whether it's solving a case, or whether it's trying to save a life, or whether it's building a friendship, it's a theme that runs through you that is contagious. And I think it's why people love to hear your story. I'm wondering, have you ever traced it back to be like, where is the origin of that? Was it at some point early, did you feel misunderstood and you just made it your purpose to make people not feel that or where would that...

Speaker 1:
[21:32] I just love, I think when you think of origin story, think of grandparents who were just nuts about me. Like they just thought I was just the bee's knees. My grandfather was a longshoreman in San Francisco. He worked on the docks. And he was a fireman. And he did that for 40 years. And he never put out a fire. I don't even know if he knew how to. But he was really good, loved me. My grandma like worked as a switchboard operator. That was her thing. And here was the crazy thing. Miles, they told me that they lived in a castle. It was about two miles away from our house. And so I got to grow up in this castle. Now it was just a row house in San Jose, California. And they were living on Social Security, 400 bucks a month. But they told me they were so wealthy, they didn't even need to make their own meals. There was this guy named Swanson that would make the meals every day and deliver them in metal plates for them. And there's something beautiful about like that idea of creating a universe of wonder, a universe of curiosity. They painted their house hot pink with white trim. Like property values cratered for a mile in every direction. But they had in mind that that's what castles look like. They're hot pink with white trim. I think we don't need to go repaint our house, but maybe put a little tune up on some of the ways that we're approaching people. Like with wonder and curiosity and all that. One thing that you're really good at is asking people, you just take a genuine interest in other people. And if we could do that when sometimes we come with an agenda and sometimes people even in faith communities come with an agenda and if love has an agenda, then it didn't love anymore. It's a program. And we can see when a program's coming our way. And I think that's one of your superpowers is that you just, you have an agenda for you. I've just never felt like you had an agenda for me. And that would be one of the things we can do and being curious about people. You know, one practice I've given up on, I've stopped asking people how they are. Because if I say, how are you? Then you'll say, fine, how are you? Because that's how we roll in North America. But instead, what I'll say is, what does it feel like to be you right now? And while they're thinking about that, because people usually don't ask that, I'll say, let me tell you what it feels like to be me. And it's about, I know the math doesn't work, but it would be about 80% insecurity and about 90% curiosity. My curiosity outpaces my insecurity, but just by a little. And so when you're talking to me, even right now, you can come across as a secure person, I'm super insecure, I'm super aware of my insecurities. And so I think that has been the growing edge for me, to be aware that little Bobby Goff has shown up with all of his insecurities and to say, look, okay, just settle down, we know you're insecure, and just be present. Like you don't need to be somebody else, because people that know me, they experience me as a pretty upbeat guy. So if I'm like Balloon Boy, he'd be like, Bob's here, and like woohoo, but you've known me in some of my darkest times. I mean, when I've been gutted, I've been just like, just full laid by some relational stuff that's happened. And I love that you give people the freedom to just show up as they are. Because otherwise, if you show up as like the happy guy all the time, then you become a caricature of who you really are. And that's actually unknown to God. Like he didn't make that one, he made this one with all of his insecurities. And just being on to yourself about, what do I do when I get insecure? One of my tells, I get funny. Like the, oh, the more insecure I get, the funnier I get. At least to me, I think I'm pretty funny. And so I all get wound up on a stage in a former life, and just try to be so fun and funny, all that. And that's just little Bobby Goff, eight years old, afraid everybody's gonna reject him. And so just being on to yourself is like, you know, you're talus.

Speaker 2:
[25:55] I think it's interesting you bring humor up as what can be a deflection and it can be a gift. And for you, it's certainly both. You have a gift of gab, a great communicator, a great storyteller, but also you'll have people on the edge of a cliff just rolling over laughing, and then right into a really beautiful heartfelt moment that you might share a happy tear. I've seen you be able to do that over and over again. And I think people are surprised by that, even at places like Onsite. And in counseling rooms is you think it's such, it's always serious and it's always deep. And some of the biggest laughs I've ever heard have come off of that hill and Cumberland furnace. It's almost, I think humor in a way is medicine. Because if we took ourselves so serious, especially with all of our ailments, then I don't know that we could survive it. I think we do have to laugh at ourselves at time, but I think it's a great distinction and I'm glad you brought it in this early. Again, it's just knowing our tales. It's like, yeah, sometimes our greatest gift can also be a burden if we're not careful.

Speaker 1:
[26:54] Yeah, and that is like a sword without a handle, right? That's the deal. When you're writing books and I really enjoy doing that. I probably send myself 100 emails a day, just like little shards of ideas. I'm like, I get home, I'm like, him again, block. But what I'll do is I'll write these shards of ideas and then the better ideas lead to a little bit more introspection. I wonder why I did that. I wonder why I have that reaction. I got right now, if you're following me around in San Diego, in addition to restraining order, what you would see is me chasing some golfers that are in my yard. Now, I'm not a particularly a grass guy, like it doesn't matter to me, but it's just not a high value. But somehow I've got in my mind, like I need to get rid of these golfers. And I was down by the path. I feel like I'm gonna get a letter from PETA now. But I put one of these little smoke things down there to like just get rid of them. And somebody came walking down the path and I put my foot over the hole.

Speaker 2:
[28:02] Smoked them out.

Speaker 1:
[28:03] Yeah, because I didn't want them to know I was smoking out the golfers. And then they wanted to shake hands. And so to shake hands, I had to lift my foot off and all the white smoke's coming out. I'm like, we've got to pope. So like, but the things that we do to navigate around our own insecurities about what you think other people are going to be thinking about you and all that. And the reality I've got to convince myself is they're probably not thinking about me. I'm thinking about a lot more. I'm thinking about enough for nine people. And they're not thinking about me at all. They're thinking about the bill they're late to pay and the thing that they're on their way to go see. So sometimes, getting up in your head and just having just this reminder that it's just like that you're not as important in their life as you think they are, not in a fatalistic way.

Speaker 2:
[28:54] I think about, I think you said an important, important line earlier that I hope people might be able to be encouraged by, which we're in a season right now in the world, some are calling it an epidemic of loneliness, where people statistically feel more alone than maybe they have. It's ironic because one could say with the social constructs that are out there, i.e. social media, that we're all more interconnected than we've ever been, but yet we're more lonely than we've been because we have less interpersonal stuff and more digital stuff. That's one of the theories, but there's lots of others. You mentioned that in your seasons when you were gutted, we were talking, you picked up the phone and called me, and I've learned from a couple of those. I'll never forget the call I got in the middle of the night, the literal middle of the night, when you found out the most special place to you at that time, and maybe it'll be one of the more special places you'll ever remember, because it is for me, it's in my top two or three, was on fire. You were losing something really, really important to you and important to the two or three of us that you called that night. But I'll never forget being on the receiving end of that call. And I wasn't, even though I'm in the space of taking lots of calls where people are navigating tragedy, when it's a friend, it's different. And especially when it's something that meant probably as much to me as it did to you, because my life changed on that mountain. It's talking about your lodge. And I didn't feel equipped that night to know what to say, because what could you say? I mean, we didn't know anything other than you were losing a dream that you'd poured your life into. And I'm curious for you, I sometimes will prescribe that move to everybody. Hey, when you're at your hardest or at your loneliness, when you're up against the wall, pick up the phone and call somebody. And I find myself having a difficult time picking up the phone and calling somebody. And I'm curious for you, has it been hard to make those calls when you're in a gutted season? Or is it natural?

Speaker 1:
[30:54] I don't think it's driven by pride. I might be wrong on that. Might be my pride keeping me from saying it's my pride. But tell me if this makes sense. You don't want to have somebody have a snapshot, like a polaroid of that moment that they keep referring to. Because I will have moved on, and then that is their point of reference. So with good buddies like you, like we have so many polaroids that we can pick from. But disclosing something that's going on in the moment, you don't want to like freeze frame that because they're going to be stuck back there. There's a woman named Paula. I went to a high school reunion. It must be her 30th or 40th. And this elderly woman walked up to me, and she said, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I think so. I'm like, and she just looked really concerned, and I'm like, oh, Paula, is that you? And I'm like, because I'm the elderly guy. And she said, you know, are you okay about the whole thing? Because she had wisely told me before the prom that she didn't want to go with me. She got a better offer, which would have been from anybody. And so she went with a better option. That was just good judgment on her part. But she was freeze framed back at 17 years old, and I'm at level 67 now. So I don't know what the math is, but that's a lot of years. But that was her last interaction. And I think I don't want us to go back to that one spot. So then I'm cautious about disclosing to somebody the deepest hurt about this moment in real time, because I don't want that to be the only reference point. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2:
[32:34] Yeah, it does make sense.

Speaker 1:
[32:35] Yeah, yeah. So being misunderstood is just an awful thing. I don't know anybody who is well adjusted that likes to be misunderstood. There might be exceptions to that, but for the most part, I think people, even people that are a little contentious because they're trying to gain some notoriety by creating havoc. But for most part, people don't want to feel misunderstood. And so as I'm sorting out how I'm feeling about things, it makes it hard. You just want to come up and up to that you're dressing it up. I just want to have a beginning and middle and an end. And when I called you, we're definitely right, the beginning to middle. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[33:16] Then we walked through the beginning, middle, and recently end of that experience. But you're right, there's a number of Polaroids we could pull. But if you're listening out there, I want to camp out here for a minute. Just ideally encourage a few people of some things I'm plucking out of our narrative and our friendship. It's things that anytime I've got a good friend, and I hope it's a reciprocal element to our relationship, then ideally I'm going to grow in the friendship as a human myself. I'll come home a little bit better husband, a little better father, a little better friend to other people, because this friendship has stood the test of time. And also we've leaned into the hard edges and the dark corners. But I think I receive an incredible amount of phone calls that are hard for people to make. I've gotten my hours on taking difficult phone calls. And many of these people don't know me that well, because they know it's what I do for a living. But then there's some when your work hat's not on, but it's a friend calling. And I got to tell you, and I think what you just articulated is a really important distinction, that if you find yourself in a place where you don't have a handful of people, or even one person will go there, that you feel can hold this part of your story and not make that your identity. I think your words were stuck in the beginning. Then that may be the most important step you could start to take or build, is how do I find and ensure that those people are in my life? Because for me, you've been one of those people for me too and I've called you in some of the hardest moments. The calls, they were hard but they weren't because it was you and I knew how I was going to be received. And I know I can call you again tomorrow. That's how we started our day to day. We didn't see each other while we sit down in there and immediately point in to each other and you're saying, hey, da, da, da. So I just want to say to everybody that I think in a world where a lot of us feel a little bit more alone, we're more likely to reach out maybe on social media with our hurts and with our wounds. And look, I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that unless it's your only outlet. And you're talking to strangers who are going to come up with, you know, you're going to be human, so you're going to build a narrative around where somebody enters your story. But if there's somebody that you can make a phone call to, that you know, as you said, has no agenda other than to walk with you through it, that goes from an obstacle to a rhythm. And I would say, I'm proud to say in my life right now, it's a rhythm. I've got you and I've got a few other people that it's not a heavy, the phone's not heavy anymore when I'm struggling. I also will call and celebrate. Hey, guess what? You were one of the first guys there when I had my first kid.

Speaker 1:
[36:03] We were shopping for diamond rings together.

Speaker 2:
[36:05] Yes, yeah, when I was ready to make the big ask. And I actually did it at an event, Disney.

Speaker 1:
[36:11] Yes, we did that together too. Remember you had everybody coming in with these long stem roses? And then I remember Vanessa muttering, if he doesn't propose to me at the end of this, I will kill him.

Speaker 2:
[36:25] I put her through that whole production.

Speaker 1:
[36:26] 400 roses in her, I'll be like, that brother.

Speaker 2:
[36:30] She was like, this better.

Speaker 1:
[36:30] And then we had a harpist playing and I think her fingers are bleeding because it just took so long to make its way through there.

Speaker 2:
[36:38] Yeah, that was a beautiful experience. You're good. So I want I just want people to be encouraged and ideally motivated that I'm telling you, these these anchor relationships, I think you you endearingly reference or communicate sometime. I mean, you'll text me and you'll say eight. Tell people what eight means.

Speaker 1:
[37:01] Oh, yeah. Number eight. A the whole idea is we have on our last day here on Earth room around our bed for about eight people, you know, nine if they're thin, but you get about eight people. And so we just decided that we would be one of each other's eight. And so we just started texting each other back and forth like number eight. And so find that in every person I meet, every conversation I have. I feel like they're trying out for the position. They're kind of interviewing for the job of being one of my eight. And if we approached conversations and relationships, and there'll be some people that will drop off. I've like, you know, you've walked through some of those with me when there's been a change in the lineup. And so when you go through those hard times, and for me, that's particularly painful, because it just involves just a host of emotions and all that. But what I've been doing that's been helpful for me is I, did you grow a plane three truths and a lie? Do you ever read that, people?

Speaker 2:
[38:07] Two truths and a lie. I think it was three.

Speaker 1:
[38:08] Is that it? I don't know. Depends how many truths and lies you got. But I remember saying, like, you know, I've sailed across the Pacific a couple of times. I got shot once. I used to raise iguanas for their pelts. And I've landed a plane on a lake. And so you have to figure out which is the truth and lie. Well, here are four statements. I got nothing to prove. I got nothing to lose. I got nothing but time. And I got boatloads of patience. And I just told you four lies that I'm trying to make true because I actually am still trying to prove things to my dead mom. I'm trying to prove that I was worth caring for in a way that I could perceive that. I'm trying to prove to broken relationships that I was worth being a friend. It was worth continuing on instead of bailing. So nothing to prove. We got nothing to lose. I'm like, I'm hanging on to stuff. Possessions, I got an old pickup truck you wouldn't even want, but I'm hanging on to that thing. They're just like, what is it that I'm hanging on to right now that if I say this, the phrase, I got nothing to lose, what makes that a lie right now? I got nothing but time. I don't. I got all kinds of responsibilities. You've been around me long enough to hear how often the phone goes off, because I put my phone number in the back of three million books. And I've got boatloads of patient. Man, I don't, I make coffee nervous. I'm like, just go. So how can we to, that's a great audit for me. How can I make those statements that feel false? How can I make them true in my life? And pausing for those little audits to say, what am I trying to prove to you? I think our friendship, I'm not trying to prove I'm worth being a friend to you because I feel like you know me. I think we decided we'd be each other's number eight. Nothing to lose. I'm not afraid of something even in a business relationship. I'm not afraid to feel we give each other each other's proxy. We use that all the time. We just like whatever you want to do, we'll just do that. But that's a good audit. Do you do anything like that in your life where you just go through? What is that being on to yourself? Is there something I'm trying to prove right now?

Speaker 2:
[40:31] Well, yes. I really, of all that you said, I relate to all of them. We just had the time conversation. It was the conversation before this conversation that the team here always warns me about. They were like, don't go in there and say all the good stuff before we get on the podcast. But we had the time conversation and I remember being in a season, with you, when you were outpacing all of us with output. I mean, you were hitting a wild number of dates, all over the country and you kept these really unusual, I say unusual, unfair judgment, but these really interesting commitments. No matter where I am, I'm flying home at the end of the night. Because I want to see my wife. I remember some of those where you were red-eyeing all over the country to make these talks work and to make the commitment at homework, which I really respected. I was worried about you, because I had to know how is this sustainable. But the good news is, in the middle of it, you were like, I probably need to think about how I titrate down and think about this next chapter. I could go through several chapters that we've walked through together. You will talk about the messy middle and the liminal space before you have it figured out. But then when you get ready to pull the trigger, you pull the trigger. We were sitting in there just talking about that. And I made some big decisions to say no to a lot of things so that you could be in a season of life that you feel is where you want to be right now. And I'm still trying to sort that out. And you're always good. As soon as you walk in, you'll pepper me with like, you know what, why don't we just do this, but tomorrow?

Speaker 1:
[42:03] Like get a date on it.

Speaker 2:
[42:05] And I just, I think the time thing I really relate to, but the one that really stuck out to me was the relationships. Because as good as I think I have gotten over the years, really since I've known you, because prior to knowing you, I think one of the things we bonded on right upfront, like in the first day we knew each other, was we were two guys who were really well, really known in our fields. You know, you had made some big waves in the nonprofit world, really in the faith world. You know, you were speaking, everybody knew who you were. I mean, you had a massive book and we're speaking at every mega church around the world and in a lot of other places. Everybody knew who Bob Goff was in that world. A lot of people knew me in my little world, mental health, psychology. And both of us were on a ride up a mountain. It's like, but do we really feel known? And I think we both related on, we had a lot of acquaintances and not a lot of friends.

Speaker 1:
[42:56] Yeah, bingo.

Speaker 2:
[42:57] And now I'm happy to say I've been a little bit more intentional about building friends. And I think what I might have been avoiding through that early season by not having many people that were anchor friends was I was scared to make them because I was terrified to lose them.

Speaker 1:
[43:16] Yeah. Is that crazy? And I think this among the things I've learned from you is that idea of the rules that we make, the agreements we make with each other. Like you get, think back, you're in high school and somebody breaks your heart and you say, I'm never going to love again. Because you're just afraid people are going to leave you. So that would be little Bobby Goff, eight years old, some crazy stuff happened. And I got my mind, everybody's going to split. It wasn't true, but it felt true. And so now carry that forward, a little Bobby Goff who's 22 and can't get a date. And it was not only the appearance, all this going on. But in addition, I was like a guy that was staying in the top three inches of every relationship. Because I just decided I was going to show up like the happy guy, like the guy that was the balloon boy. Right. And so I realized that people don't want to do life with somebody. They'll do an evening with somebody, but you're not going to do life with somebody that's just keeping it really in the top couple inches. And then I decided to do a little bit more spelunking. You know, I just wanted to go down into the cave and see what was written on the wall and see, get the headlamp going to say, who wrote it? Is it true? Was it ever true? Does it need to keep being true? And that, I think, has emerged from our friendship, just going down, getting down there and figuring out, what are the things that are driving this? Because what felt like really helpful scaffolding for my little eight-year-old heart ended up feeling like San Quentin to a 22-year-old, right? And then meeting sweet Maria Goff and just bringing down some of that scaffolding and then having meaningful relationships. Find your eight. Oh, and then if one of your eight changes and the whole sock drawer gets thrown on the floor, do you make a new rule? Do you say, I'm never doing that again, but to resist, say like, no, you're gonna have some setbacks along the way, but setbacks aren't campsites. I'm not gonna make that a campsite. That was like a setback and I'm gonna try to understand their context, to understand mine as best I can and figure out, I wanna create healthy rules. And my healthy rule is this, take what it is that you're known for and take that away. And whatever's left is who you are. Ooh, right? So if you're, it was Bob the lawyer. So take away being a lawyer. I walked into my own law firm on the 18th floor, 17th and 18th floor of the Wells Fargo building in downtown Seattle. And I step out of the elevator and the receptionist said, who are you here to see? I said, well, actually, that's my name right behind you. And I realized I hadn't been in my own law firm for the better part of a year because I'd been off and doing other stuff. And so I got everybody together and I quit. Just that Cortez, like burn the ships. That has been really helpful for me in just doing that, quitting stuff on Thursdays, just pull the chocks, say I'm just doing that. And now our conversation before I quit speaking. I'm not doing that. I don't know how to do half measures. I don't know how I can do less. So it just feels like it's binary. It's either on or it's off. And for who I'm becoming, I've had to turn it off. Not for anybody else. I just am incapable of moderation. So I don't know. Have you done the same thing where you've had to just say, like, I'm going to switch? Because by switching off to this, making a really healthy rule. Oh, a great boundary has been by saying, I'm not spending nights away. Mostly because it's just really lonely sitting in a Motel 6, you know, somewhere I'd rather just fly home and then fly back to Orlando the next day. I know that's, my carbon front print is the size of like, you know, me and Southwest Airlines are. So, but to make rules that are healthy rules that are gonna get me where I'm gonna go.

Speaker 2:
[47:25] Yeah, I think what you're describing is, what are the guidelines? What's the roadmap that we wanna try to live our life by? And to answer your question, it's a thoughtful one. And I think because we're two friends sitting here talking and there's no experts in the room, and that's what's making me really contemplate the answer, just like we would in real time, as I don't wanna give you a line, I wanna give you the truth. And I'm not that great at that. I'm not that great. I am not good at also saying I'm gonna be selective on where I spend my time, on who I'm gonna try to support, because I just love it too much. And so if I leave the door cracked open, it's gonna get blown open at some point. I'm not good at closing those doors. That's been a challenge of mine. I think you've seen me walk through and I think you've encouraged me. I've gotten a little better at it in some areas, but to make big bold ones like that, even now in my life, we've started this project, which has been so fun. I'm having so much fun with it. And it's a lot of work. I have so much respect for people that are podcasting and other forms of media where it can be a full-time job in itself. And then I've got some other things I like to do and I'm still very much involved in Onsite, some other endeavors and I realize I'm more of an add to than a take away. So sometimes my response to stress is to add more stress.

Speaker 1:
[48:48] Just start pedaling faster. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[48:50] Well, just because it and I've gotten better at that, but we had a conversation even before you got here, Ashley and I who she's my wing woman. She directs all the operations for my office and we work together every day and have for a few years and she's just so special to everything that I do. But we were talking and she's a truth teller in my life too, and cares about me as much as a human as she does, me is what I might have professional output. And she said, I think, I hope I'm not airing too much of your tea over there. You tell me we can edit it if so. But she's about ready to go on maternity leave. And I've never been more thrilled for a human because she's going to be like super mom. She was like born to be a mom. And I'm also terrified about that because she's dipping out for a while. And I'm like, what's that going to be like? Our worlds are so intergrained professionally. But she's over there before she goes, says, I wonder if this is not a good time for you to say I'm only going to focus on these two things for this period of time. So that you can really focus on these things and not try to focus on everything. And it's a moment of vulnerability. Having, watching a friend who's doing that in real time. And I've seen you do it over and over again. I even saw you do it with Love Does, which you couldn't be more identified with. I mean, you wrote the book. And then the NGO is so branded by it. But I remember early on when you said, you know what, this won't be sustainable if it's all about me. And we've got to figure out a way to step out of it. And one day, you find the right person in leadership and boom. You plug her in and you let her do her thing.

Speaker 1:
[50:28] Oh my gosh, and it got so much better. Jody Luke runs this thing now, like a Chicago price water house CPA. That's who we need to go build really big things. And she and this team, and then also the, it's not about what we're doing in Somali, it's about what Somalis are doing in Somali and what Ugandans are doing in Uganda. So we're just there to be helpful and get out of the way. Most of the time, they're just, they just need somebody to get out of the way. You know, we got your back. What do you need? How can I help supply that? But to your point about having circumstances kind of shake up the snow globe, like it's actually kind of a good thing. I'm learning to welcome that a little bit. Well, the disruption isn't like, can be destabilizing. It makes you having this plausible reason why you're doing whatever you're doing. And I really like the burn the ships thing, having to say, I'm just not doing these things. I don't need to have a big backfill reason. I don't have to explain it to everybody. I used to do that. I don't do that anymore. People fall out of the chair. I'm just not a lawyer anymore, nor does anybody think I'm a lawyer. And there'll come a time where I stop writing books. But I'm really, if you know the reason why you're doing it, I'm not writing books to be popular. When I was 20 and could like shred a Stratocaster, I wanted to be popular. But at 67, I'm just not trying to have my knee give out on me. So to say what's going to be lasting, I feel like we're having these books, because I'm going to be in a jar or that snow globe, and I just want something leaning up against it. To say this is what I thought about life and faith and all that. I'm trying to talk people into or out of whatever their belief system is. I just want to know this is like what I believed and this is why it made sense to me. That's why I've always been encouraging you to write these stories down, because you've got a book or two and you like I just see it.

Speaker 2:
[52:35] You and I'm doing it. You've been a constant wind behind myself around that and I am doing it. That's part of what Ashley was talking to me about is getting some focus time and spending a little less time in this season on some of the on-site activity and some of my other clients and spending more time on finishing this book and continuing to build this show. And so we're going to try to focus on doing that. But you if there's people out there like me and I make up, there's got to be quite a few that have a tendency to over commit. And I mean, I'm really good at helping other people put the, for lack of a better frame, just a boundary down around where they need to put a stop in their life to make more time for something else. It just happened before we, earlier this morning I had an interview with somebody who I'm not sure if they're gonna be a fit for what we're talking about. One thing was really clear is they needed to make a move for where they are. It just popped off the page to me. And so I got to encourage them in that moment and help them think about beyond this possible opportunity, what's keeping you from taking a step into a new opportunity. And so I'm good at talking about it, not that good at executing it. You seem to be the guy that builds systems around things and not a one of your whimsical systems was quit, was it quit something ever?

Speaker 1:
[53:46] Every Thursday.

Speaker 2:
[53:47] You still doing it?

Speaker 1:
[53:47] You just give the boot to one thing.

Speaker 2:
[53:50] Where'd that come from?

Speaker 1:
[53:50] Nobody will take my calls on Thursdays. Yeah, because I think I was spending a weird amount of time trying to come up with a reason why I was gonna not do whatever. So I was spending all this time on the press release about why, and I just decided every Thursday, I'm gonna quit one thing. And it's been the best thing ever. I was on the board of a really big nonprofit until yesterday, I'm like, I'm out. And they said, why? I'm like, it's Thursday. I quit stuff on Thursday. And that is just so freeing for no other reason to say like, quit stuff. Before they launch a jet off an aircraft carrier in San Diego, the last thing they do is they put their fists together and their thumbs out and they like pull the chocks. So every Thursday, I'm like, pull the chocks, like what's keeping you stuck and quit. And so on the speaking stuff, I just decided I was actually, I took 40 people 400 miles across the desert. And I asked these guys, and I think it's a thing I've learned from you is that you can only take people as far as you've gone before. I can hear you saying that to me, verbatim. And the whole idea was to say, so what are you going to do about that? What is your courageous move? And I told these 40 people, I'm going to stop speaking. And there's something about instead of just getting vague about it and to say, I want to be happier or I want more freedom. I'm going to say no to every speaking event. It'll be the nicest no ever. But I'm just going to say no. And I'll put somebody that's going to be 10 times better than me. I'll give them a couple of names of people. But that was so freeing and terrifying. So people listening to this, I'd say like, what's your move? And it's not graded on a curve. Pain is not graded on a curve. Our moves are not graded on a curve. But I just want us to make them and then pick a date. I got a tub of cottage cheese. It's got an expiration date. I'm actually approaching my expiration date. And so for the limited period of time that we have left, let's go make some moves. There's in my faith tradition, there's a verse that says the entire universe is up on tiptoes. Just waiting to see what's going to be revealed in your life. And I'm like, isn't that awesome? To just imagine, all of heaven is looking over the rim, see what move is Miles going to make? What's he going to do with that? When things start developing, what's he going to do? And I know it's going to be painful and scary and all that, but you got your eight, I'm one of them. You're like three of my eight.

Speaker 2:
[56:29] Well, it's interesting because I was reading my son. I'm so already seeing the tail end of the reading stories to go to bed at night. And it's already something I'm pre grieving, because it's just been such a special part of the relationship I've been building with them. And who knows, maybe I got more runway there than I even know. But at eight and six, they still like it. They still like the books have changed, but they still like dad or mom reading the book before we go to bed. So I picked one up the other day, I was buying a couple books for another friend of mine, Sarah, who's got a new beautiful little baby girl. And I saw one from Jalen Hurts, which is one of my son's favorite players, not his favorite team because they beat his favorite team in the Super Bowl. We went to a couple of years ago, but I didn't know a lot about Jalen Hurts, other than he's an exceptional quarterback for the Philadelphia Eagles, played for the University of Alabama, but I didn't know who the guy was. He's got a kid's book and something like better than a touchdown. It was a really great little book, super encouraging and he has all these quotes in there about not giving up, and how he was disappointed by something that happened. A lot of it is we just don't quit. We just don't quit. So I've been pouring that into my son since I've been reading that book, especially when he'll have a rough day playing flag football or basketball, and if he doesn't perform, he'll be like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, maybe I shouldn't be playing this position. I've been giving him more of the other side of the coin, which is perseverance, don't quit. But I like the way you take things and turn them on their head, and you find the value in the other option. So you've said it, and I just want to cap out on just a little bit longer because I think I may need to selfishly hear this more than our guests today. But the value of stepping away from something, I think the magic word that you introduced back to me today was, if you don't know the why, you're less likely to do it. And I remember you, now that I go back, I'm like, I remember when you first started talking about it, it's probably 10 years ago, like I'm going to quit speaking at some point when I have grandkids.

Speaker 1:
[58:30] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:30] There's a why, and there may be other whys.

Speaker 1:
[58:33] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:34] And I don't know that I fully identified some of the whys of why I might want to limit and focus my time a little bit more. What's the value of the pausing something, quitting something, moving on to something else? What has been the benefit in your life?

Speaker 1:
[58:48] Yeah, it's one of those must be present to win things. I've got this deal, you know, I love Disneyland. I'm like, I'm there all the time. It's not too far from the house. And I've got this deal. I don't know if I've told you this, but every day I get 12 tickets to give people cuts to the front of the line. Did you know that?

Speaker 2:
[59:06] No, you know that every day?

Speaker 1:
[59:07] Every day. At midnight, 12 more of these things. Now, I can't call it in. I gotta be there. And so I'll drive up to Anaheim just to give away the 12 tickets. So I'll walk up to Strangers at the end of this two and a half hour line. And I'll say, like, I know this sounds so creepy, like come see my etchings. But if you'll walk with me, if you'll just trust me 100 feet worth, we can take you from here to the front of the line. And it's so interesting watching people do the over and under. They're saying, well, I'm at the end of the two and a half hour line, what do I have to lose? And I mean, whether your background is in faith or love for people or whatever, whatever your risk tolerance is, it's so interesting to see people make a decision, you know what, I'm going to risk it. And so they come with me and then all of a sudden the light turns green and they go in. And then I've just faded to black. They're like, who was that masked man? So I love that idea of giving people cuts to the front of the line, but also understand that living a life of sacrifice means taking cuts to the back of the line. So if faith guides your steps, like those are recurring themes. You don't have to take your emotions to the back of the line, but to just say, instead of trying to be first, even though I could have the shot at something, really, what if I gave it to somebody else? Because I'll just blow their hair back. They'll be talking about that forever. Just like think of Maverick in the stories you're reading to him. Like these are Lindsay is in her 30s, and she's writing kids books. If I write an adult book, then she writes a kids book to go with it.

Speaker 2:
[60:46] And I've got some on our reading list.

Speaker 1:
[60:48] Wouldn't that be fun to think like, this is just like you're the warm up band for this next level of relationship you're going to have with Vanessa and the kids and all that. So at 67, I'm thinking like, what might be possible now, if I could set it in motion, that we could really live into? Done this at practice, it's been really helpful. I had this idea of hovering over each person in your life. Just the thing that, you know, from almost like a Sunday school, like God creates and then he hovers. So think of like, if I hover over Sweet Maria, what does she uniquely need from me that only I could give her? Yeah, hover over Lindsay. What does she uniquely need that only I could give her? Because if she wants a ride, she could get to Cleveland on Uber for 17 bucks. But what she needs is time with me. She needs me to show up at swim practice. And so this idea of quitting speaking becomes more tangible to me because I can show up at swim practice. And she doesn't need me to do anything. I hold the towels. I don't even know if the grandkids know I'm there. But there's something beautiful about shared experiences. You know, the other day, I'm at the swim practice and the person that owns the place came running in and said, code rainbow. And I'm like, what's code rainbow?

Speaker 2:
[62:09] I know where this is going.

Speaker 1:
[62:10] Oh, and I knew it was not a rainbow that happened in the pool. Some kid took a dump and there's moms pulling their kids out of the thing. And so now when something awful happens, like around our house, it was like code rainbow.

Speaker 2:
[62:26] Somebody just crept in the pool.

Speaker 1:
[62:27] So yeah, so it's just that idea whether, whatever it is, being present for that, being wildly inefficient in the way that you love people, must be present to win. And it's gonna cost you something. But in the end, you're gonna get everything. Like when I'm in the jar or the snow globe, we're gonna be talking about code rainbow. I won't be talking about it, but they'll be talking about code rainbow and those shared experiences. You know, again, back to Sunday school days, it was like, said that these people early on, they broke bread and they had things in common. I really like how I pound carbs and have things in common. You and I have had common experiences for decades now, and as a result of that, we're each other's number eight. And I really love that.

Speaker 2:
[63:16] Me too. I just had another aha, as you were sharing some of that, is you're not, because you talked about if she needed a ride, she'd get an Uber, she needed time with you. So you're not necessarily quitting something, you're making space for something that matters more right now. And it's something I needed to hear in that moment, because I love all the activities that I get to be a part of. And if, I probably was giving myself a little bit too hard of a time, because when you say, how are you doing in that lane, if there's one area I feel proud of, it's the time I'm being present for my family right now. And I'm doing things I never used to do with in terms of the time I'm coming home. We're not doing it perfectly, but I'm making time to coach, I'm making time for the things that matter. I guess I'd grade myself a little higher. I think on the vocational side is where I spread myself a little thin and lose a little focus. But I don't know that I've fully driven into the why I'd make some of those decisions. And I don't know that I've really ever thought about it through the lens of this is making space for what. And I think if I can connect the why and the what, maybe if you're listening out there and you can relate to my struggle in this lane, and maybe be encouraged by Bob's progress in this lane, maybe you connect the why and the what, and then the how will take care of itself.

Speaker 1:
[64:30] Yeah, if you've ever done that values exercise, where you just lay up here with my 10 highest values, and then line it up, no shame, no guilt, but just say, let's compare that to guys like you and I, everything's tied for first. Particularly when it comes to running a business and all that, it's all first, it'd be like I want to do it all. And at some point, the wheels wobble a little bit on that, and so great clarifying exercise is to do that. And then to remind yourself, don't beat yourself up. I just keep on repeating myself, I'm not a piñata. Because when you hit yourself, it's not candy that comes out to you. It's like Code Rainbow, right? You're not a piñata. So instead of beating yourself up about those things, try to understand it, see it so you can understand it, so you can do something about it.

Speaker 2:
[65:22] Well, I'll also keep going.

Speaker 1:
[65:23] No, that's it. I bet everything will fall back to something I learned from you. But like once we see it, what do you say? You say your ability of your brain to see it. Help me with that. You said that so many times and so well.

Speaker 2:
[65:39] Yeah, we can't. Let me think if I can think of the frame. I used to say it a lot when I was talking is we don't change what we first can't see. And we know that wasn't even it. The ability to the ability that the brain can see itself. It can change itself.

Speaker 1:
[65:55] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[65:56] That was not it either.

Speaker 1:
[65:56] Yeah. No, it's to heal itself.

Speaker 2:
[65:58] Heal itself.

Speaker 1:
[65:58] So if your brain can see itself.

Speaker 2:
[66:00] If your brain can see itself, it can heal itself.

Speaker 1:
[66:01] Yeah. So I just think in a layman's kind of lawyer version, I'm just saying I got to see it so I can understand it, so I can do something about it. And again, if faith is your journey, then you can say you can take it to who you believe is most trustworthy to deal with that. So, but it starts with seeing it and not like being vague about it. But then, so I can understand, I wonder what the thing is underneath, what's just out of sight that's really making this thing go, oh, that's little insecure Bobby Goff. Afraid he's going to get rejected again. And then when rejection happens, so like it happened again. And instead of saying, I'm going to make a rule, I'm never going deep with the friendship again, to say like, no, no, no, that's little Bobby Goff speaking. And I want 67-year-old Bobby Goff to show up. I want that guy to show up. I want to make all my decisions by getting like eight-year-old Bobby Goff as part of it, Bob, who is 67, and then a guy that's plus 10. So if you're like listening, you just get your eight-year-old version of you, who you are right now, and then you plus 10. And then have all three of those people vote and let the other two outvote you. And I think there's something, you can bring the wisdom, you can get real about the herd, where the origin story. But then you're also thinking about who you turn in into. And to say, you know, at the end of the day, if I make a lot less money, because I don't do the only thing I do, just less taxes to pay. Have you ever played that game, unfortunately, fortunately? Yeah, so you can say, unfortunately, I'm out of work, but fortunately, I don't have to pay as much taxes. So it's actually, so reframe constantly. So we do that around the house all the time. We just got, unfortunately, fortunately.

Speaker 2:
[67:50] Well, and then once you do get time back and opportunity, I think you have taught me a lot on the power of taking a swing, unapologetically, and we've taken some wild swings over the years. I was just, even as you were thinking about even Disneyland, I remember one of the first gigs that you invited me to come speak at, which is really, you were putting a lot of trust in me to bring me into your world. And you were running events at the time and you'd have other speaker friends come around some of your events and we were at Disney. And you had people who had different levels of expertise would go out into the park and there were like 600 participants that would follow us to whatever talk they wanted to hear. And I just assumed you'd been working with Disney on all that.

Speaker 1:
[68:33] I'm the only guy that's got thrown out of Top Shore Island.

Speaker 2:
[68:37] You sent me to Thunder Alley and I was talking about the storms in your life, it was perfect. And I didn't get any intel other than I was to meet my group for my talk at Thunder Alley. But I got over there and it was just, where do we go? I was just on a park bench. I stood up on a park bench and had 100 people follow me over there and shared a message before they asked me to leave. But I realized you saw something that could bring meaning and value into people's lives and you didn't take time to go plan it and get all the permission slips that you might need to do it. You just took a swing and we went for it. Even the parts where the park got caught off guard with the activity and they were like, is that a Disney activity or are those a bunch of strange? That was a meaningful part of people's experience. Because all of us felt like we were taking this risk, we were doing something. So for those out there, that might be on the other side of the coin, where I'm in my life right now, is there's all these beautiful opportunities and I'm spreading myself a little thin sometimes, say yes to too many of them to get really good at any one of them. There's other people, I think, who are standing at the back of the Hadoff. And they've got a wide open lane, and they're terrified to take a swing or take a risk. And from somebody who's the, I think if you've mastered any craft, it's taking a risk and going to do things. What would you say to encourage them?

Speaker 1:
[69:56] Well first of all, if you're the console for any country, you have diplomatic community. So there's that. But I like, I've gotten pullover for speeding like nine times. They can't touch me. I shouldn't even have car insurance. But here's the idea, fail trying, don't fail watching. Because a lot of times what we're doing is we're like thinking about all the results and how embarrassing that'll be and all that, but like just fail trying. So that you get at the end and it's not doing it so that you can talk about that you did it, is that you showed up, you gave it everything you could, and then when you hit an impediment, call it that. It's just a perceived impediment. You know this project we've got going on that Jody's leading us in Love Does, we're building a university, in a place that's been known for being the origin of the Civil War. But there's a university, well, I decided I wanted to have a zoo. But then I found out somebody says it's a habitat. I'm like, whatever, it's a zoo. So I wanted animals that wouldn't bite people and it would be hard to lose. And I'm like, giraffes. So I don't know anybody with giraffes. And it turns out the president of Uganda owns all the giraffes in Uganda. Is that a great job, Perk? Yeah. So I don't know him very well, but I do know his wife pretty well. So we sat down with her and I talked all about this university. And I talked about, we want to take these kids from diapers to doctorate. And I talked about, we need giraffes. I just need six giraffes. And she ran over and grabbed her husband, the president, and pulled them over. And we sat with him for one hour talking about giraffes. We didn't talk about higher education. We just talked about giraffes. And we walked out of their place with six giraffes. What I want us to do is not like rule something out in advance, even though it seems totally absurd, but to say, what I'm going to do is I'm going to pick the lock. And even in a relationship, you remember those old like safe cracking movies, they spin the dial and they listen for the tumblers. And that's one of the things I've learned from you is you just, in a relationship with a particular problem, you spin the dial, you listen to the tumblers, which is hard for some of us if we're always talking. So be quiet, listen for the tumblers, spin it the other way. And the crazy thing is, when it comes to relationships, people we're married to, the people we made, the people we foster, then the combination is constantly changing. And you've taught me about just slowing it down, listen for the tumblers. But you can't get there if you're just always in a hurry. Come up with a couple strategies. You've seen my 71 Volkswagen bus. I bought that thing for 1,500 bucks. It's probably worth 1,400. And that thing going downhill with a stiff wind behind it will do 40 miles an hour. And so for a guy who's always in a hurry, just be on to yourself. Just get a car that doesn't have hurry in it. There's something beautiful about these strategies. Have a little fun. Don't hit yourself. Just say, I'm going to get a pig slow car. I'm going to get something. We'd be going faster if I was pushing that thing. And just be on to yourself. But do it with joy and creativity and a little bit of whimsy rather than beating yourself up about it. Because I don't know, I don't think you'd thrive that way, would you? If you're just always boxing your ears or...

Speaker 2:
[73:25] And I've been there before, but I think I agree with you in that I think that's why I have a love of horses and why I spend so much time on horses because it's a truly analog activity that requires your full presence and attention.

Speaker 1:
[73:36] Bingo.

Speaker 2:
[73:37] And I think the more analog activities we can put into a really fast-paced digital world, the more likely we are to remember who we are because that's when things get quiet enough for us to actually hear it.

Speaker 1:
[73:47] Yeah. The guy that paroled into San Diego, we're trying to figure out how to get him to Disneyland with me next week. But the problem is he only has a six-hour pass. Now, I could drive up there pretty fast, but we wouldn't get the day in. So just before I got here, I called this parole officer and say, hey, listen, I want to take him to Disneyland. Now, he stopped cutting his hair 27 years, nine months, and seven days ago. So I think you've met him before.

Speaker 2:
[74:14] Yeah, now I know exactly who you're talking about.

Speaker 1:
[74:17] He's like Reggae Rapunzel. He's got these threadlocks that just go all the way to the floor. So I just cannot wait to pull that off. And I think the parole officer is going to let him go. But instead of ruling that out and say, well, there's a rule and it's just six hours, we go like, well, let's go talk about that. And not to challenge the guy, but to just say, hey, listen, it's going to take a minute to get there and back. I bet he's going to be a nice guy. I bet we'll be at Disneyland together. And I promise you this, we'll be going to the front of the line a little bit, but we're also going to give other people, I want this guy to give somebody else a ticket to the front of the line. Like that is where it gets really good. So like that idea of creating those moments where he could do that, but and that's what he did that got him into trouble, is getting to the front of the line. Let's go to the back of the line, let somebody you don't even know, nobody they don't even know your name. They're just some guy with some pretty long dreads, walked up and gave me cuts to the front of the line. Like, oh, that's the moment I want to create.

Speaker 2:
[75:19] I've got a collection of a few guys too from San Quentin and some of the other institutions around the country that I've collected that have been friends and that I've hopefully added some value to and help mentor a little bit as they're transitioning out of that life into back into life. One of the most important things you can do when somebody has been institutionalized in a way, it doesn't matter if it was literally like you do when you're serving time. It can be metaphorically, it can be in your own jail. But if you have been stuck in some part of your life and then you suddenly get moved back into life, you felt misunderstood for so long that it's very difficult to find your value. I think if you can usher people's value back into their lives or help them usher people's value back into the life, you open up an opportunity for them to get clear about not just who they are, but as you famously say, who they can become. I've done that with some guys coming out of SQ that have had two days and two days out. I'm like, I need you to get on the phone with somebody who's still in. What do I have to offer? I have no idea what this life is going to look like. Well, they're going to get paroled next week, and I think they're going to learn more from you on your second day than they might from me, who's been living this life that way. Immediately, it's not that they have a life hack, they have a road map, or they're like, here's the way you do this. It's like, I know what it's like to be misunderstood and to wonder if I have value again. And then you give them a ticket to be able to hand somebody to get to the front of the line.

Speaker 1:
[76:48] Wouldn't that be, like, just like with that idea of whimsy and wonder and purpose, it's like a planned spontaneity to say, that'll be a really neat moment for everybody. Somebody gets to go to the front, we're going to have a story to tell. I just really want us to, I remember being a lawyer, and I spent a lot of time figuring out how to move this, we weren't playing checkers, we were playing chess. And if we could do that in our relationships, not in a manipulative way, but the opposite of that, in a selfless way, to say, how can we create a moment for somebody? Where you'd ask those questions, like, you know, what do you want? Jesus asked it to every blind guy he ever met, like, why not ask that? You know one of the guys that was with us at San Quentin, I'm actually a Manson family member, and I went to San Quentin at Christmas time and I wore a Santa suit, because I'm thinking like, why not, right? It turns out at the front gate, they're not big on people with baggy clothing. It gives you a break like hacksaws and all this stuff. And so, but I did this Jedi move. I'm like, you want to let me in. So they let me in. Now I'm at the yard in San Quentin and this guy comes and he sits on my lap. And he says, I've never sat on Santa's lap before. And I said, well, I've never had a serial killer sitting in my lap before. So this is a first for both of us. And I told him, what do you want? That's what Santa asks everybody he talks to. What do you want? And you know what? I thought he'd tell me he wanted an alibi, but what he said instead, he said, I want to call on Christmas morning. And there's a good guy that we know there that engineered that. And on Christmas morning, we ended up on a little video call together. And after we talked for a while, I said, hang on for a second. And he steps out of the screen, another guy sits down. And we have a great visit. Then he said, hang on a second. And he steps out, another guy. There's like 15 guys in a row. All they want to do is just have a conversation. And I just think that is so attainable for us. We just need to slow it down. You don't need to put your phone number in the back of a bunch of books, but it doesn't mean you don't. I know that's a double negative, but just find however the settings you came from the factory with. And I want to be available. I'll never be the smartest guy in the room, but I can be available, and maybe for people listening today. What's one way I could show up? And not just show up, but to say, what do you want? Like, what are you looking for in life? And they pick an area, faith, family, fun, finances, start everything with an F, philanthropy if you can't spell, like Ferrari if you want one. But to just do a little bit of an audit and just say in each of these categories, have those conversations. The people you'll have those conversations with, they're your eight.

Speaker 2:
[79:36] You're talking about a concept of living into grace and you have a great metaphor that I've borrowed before, but I'd rather you tell this story if you're okay with it. But it's talking about catching people on the bounce.

Speaker 1:
[79:48] Oh, yes. I remember Adam Goff, who's just a wild man. Like, I didn't think he'd see 30. But Adam decided he was going to take up skydiving lessons, which seemed like a really bad idea. So I'm like, when do we start? So while he finished up his skydiving course, I would drive him out there and he would go up in the plane to 15,000 feet and throw himself out. And then it was just like so fun. I'd be at the bottom, he'd land, and we'd get his parachute together. But what he didn't realize is I started taking skydiving lessons. And so one time I drove him out to the skydiving place. He gets out, he throws his parachute on, and I grab one, I throw it on, and I get in the plane with him. He's like, what are you doing? I'm like, how hard could it be? And so we get in the airplane, we're spinning up, and he's still wondering, like, what in the world? And so we get up to 15,000 feet, and Adam gets in the door, and he jumps out of the plane. And I've got my tennis shoes on, and I guess they were laced up, and I jump out so hard, I jump out of my shoes. You got to jump pretty hard to jump out of your shoes. But in that moment, I was just so excited. And they told us during training, they say if your parachute doesn't go off, you've got an emergency chute, and you can pull that, and if that doesn't go off, you've got about five seconds before you crater. Wow. And they said that when you hit the ground, that won't kill you, but what happens is you hit the ground, you break every bone in your body, you bounce up, and the second time you hit that kills you. And so I like the idea of just like catching people on the bounce. Because it isn't usually the fail that kills them, it's that they bounced and nobody was there to catch them. After they cratered, after the relationship died, after the big mess up, after the whatever, and that idea of catching people on the bounce. And so whether somebody from San Quentin or somebody next door, and forget this idea of going across an ocean, go across a street, find somebody in your circle of friends and say, how could I catch you on the bounce?

Speaker 2:
[82:03] That's beautiful. Speaking across the ocean, I gotta say, I gotta at least speak into this because I watched you navigate this terrain as good as anybody I've ever seen, which you've referenced your faith a handful of times, and you and I are aligned and share some similar thoughts on our faith and belief systems. But we have all kinds of kinds that are listening to this. And I have seen you take your faith and mobilize it in a way that it feels like you're so proud of it in the way that you carry it, but you do it in such a non-threatening way for other people that may not have that same belief system or origin. I've watched us go into Islamic countries and as Christian guys, and I've seen you do it. I've seen it done so many other ways where it's trying to push an agenda to somebody's face and here's what you should believe because it's the way I believe and it's the only way to believe. But I've seen you take it across all kinds of different religions and even people who have no center around faith at all. And yet you build a relationship in ideally the way that what I read about Jesus, who's a guy we look up to, the way he did it was I'm not here to preach at you or down to you around a certain set of values that I think you need to live by, but I am here to get to know you. So I can show you a little bit more about the things that are tuning up in my life. I'd be curious, because I thought about, when you said do it in your backyard, you catch people on the bounce that are hard to catch. Seen you do that over and over and over again. There's not many signing up for that job to go spend Christmas morning at San Quentin in a prison with people, arguably, who a large part of the world may feel they don't deserve to be celebrated or seen. And you go see them anyway. I've seen you do that with witch doctors in Uganda. I've been at a witch doctor graduation for you.

Speaker 1:
[83:53] Those guys have more toes than teeth.

Speaker 2:
[83:56] But I mean, witch doctor, and look, when you get into that world, you realize there's a lot of evil. I mean, there was some scary things that these men, in this case, had done in their life. And you gave them a moment of value. And I'll never forget we played pomp and circumstance on kazoos. You remember that? Middle of the bush.

Speaker 1:
[84:15] Yes, with the blue robes and the hat and all that. Yeah, it was graduation day. And these guys are like, are just have been so far removed. Like they're so feared and they're perceived as having so much power. And to just teach them how to read and write. I think there's just something really beautiful and redeeming. I just like creating safe spaces. I just want to be Switzerland, don't you? Give me a bar of chocolate and a bobsled. I just want to be. And it's not going soft. I heard somebody where faith was important to them. They said make a defense for the hope that's within you. But I met a lot of people in their faith. It's like they want to be Jesus' lawyer. And he doesn't need one.

Speaker 2:
[85:00] Defend the traditions.

Speaker 1:
[85:01] Yeah, you're not good enough.

Speaker 2:
[85:02] Let them know about the rules.

Speaker 1:
[85:03] Yeah. I just saw him not there. That verse, they stop there, but it continues on and says, but do it with kindness and respect. And that's one of the things that I appreciate with people like you that have been most impactful in my life. They treat me with kindness and respect. And that didn't go light on your faith. That's going big on the things you believe in. It's like it's like a declaration of faith. Every selfless act of love will declare what you actually believe. I don't care what you say. Just just show me what you do on a Tuesday.

Speaker 2:
[85:37] Yeah, one of one of the most beautiful acts of faith I think I've ever heard. And I wasn't there on this trip. But when you recounted it to me, I remember being just weeped. I was in tears to hear what you brought into this. A that you even went there. But it's I think it's a story that you spent a while since I've read your big, big book. You got lots of big books. But Love Does was one that just went everywhere. And it was about Kabi, right?

Speaker 1:
[86:04] Kabi, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[86:05] Kabi. And there's a beautiful, long story about him that you might be able to abbreviate. But get into the part where you went back to see him, that may be the final time or have you seen him again since then?

Speaker 1:
[86:19] No, no, that was the final time.

Speaker 2:
[86:21] Would you be open to sharing what happened on that day?

Speaker 1:
[86:23] Yeah, I'll give you just a short version of that. The in Uganda, the witch doctors, among the things that they do that are awful is child sacrifice. And yet, in the country of Uganda, nobody's ever taken a witch doctor on, because they believe that they have all the power. And so then the lawyers won't do it, courts won't hear the cases, and then the victim's always dead. But this one little kid, we'll just say his name is Charlie. Charlie gets attacked by Kabi, and the belief is that the head or blood or private parts of a little kid have these magical powers. Kabi cuts off the private parts of this kid, leaves him for dead, but the kid didn't die. And so I get a call from Uganda. I'm in San Diego, and they say, we have a victim of this awful thing, and the kid lived. And so I get on a plane, I fly to Uganda, and I went and saw the Chief Justice of their Supreme Court, said, will you let me try Uganda's first death penalty case against the switch doctor? And I said, you will never find a judge. And then we did. And there's something beautiful about when you show up, and the story isn't about you, it's about Charlie, a four foot tall kid who stood up in court and said, that's the man who tried to kill me. Can you imagine a kid at seven years old to go through that? Well, Kabi gets convicted, gets sent to Lazira Prison on death row, and, but this kid is horribly disfigured, and he can't do things that way boys do him and all that. And so I get a phone call from a guy, his name is Randy Sherman, and Randy says, you don't know me, but I heard what happened to this little boy, and I can fix him. And I'm like, buddy, you do not know what got cut off, because you cannot fix that. And he said, I'm the chief of surgery at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. I can fix him. I'm like, are you kidding me? I didn't say kidding, but that's what I meant. And he said, I'm going to take some arm and some leg, and we're going to make a new thing. And I'm like, what would that cost? He said, I'll do it for nothing. I'm like, I can afford nothing. So I flew back to Uganda, and I become the legal guardian of this kid. I know some of the judges there took me 45 minutes. And so now I'm flying back with little Charlie, and it was at the time Obama was the president. And I get a message on my text message, and it says, we'd like to meet Charlie. And the number is 202-456-1414. That's the White House. I dialed the number because I got guys like you in my life who were pranking me. And so I buy a new ticket to there. He's still making payments on that. And we fly to Washington, DC., and this kid, the two days before standing in the bush in Uganda, is now standing in the Oval Office. I'm like, that whole idea, but here's the deal. What about Kabi? Like, that idea of loving your enemies. And it's easy to say that if you went to Sunday school, but pretty hard to do that when you have an enemy. When you've been wounded by somebody, like, deeply, relationally, or physically wounded. So I started meeting Kabi on death row. And we struck up this friendship, which seems pretty unlikely, because I'm the guy that put him there. And I asked Kabi, like, what is it that you need? And he said, I need some shoes. I looked down, I'm like, my next stop was supposed to be their White House in Uganda. So I took, I went into their White House barefoot because Kabi has some nice floor shine shoes on. This whole idea of just showing up in practical ways. And Kabi comes to faith. And I'm not trying to talk people into or out of faith. But the thing that was crazy about that, I wasn't trying to keep them in. I was actually trying to keep them out. And I think sometimes what we do is we need to reevaluate and say, what is it? Can you rethink your views instead of saying, I'm the good guy, you're the bad guy, I'm the lawyer, you're the witch doctor. And then we got Kabi said he wanted to talk to everybody on death row, there's 3000 guys. I asked the warden, he said, would that be okay? And so now we got 3000 guys and we're talking, they know I'm the lawyer that put Kabi and he's the head of the witch doctors. And Kabi presents this like tells whatever he thinks about faith. And you know what, Miles, he screwed it all up. I didn't I don't think he got one thing right. I don't know if I believed in Jesus when he was done. I'm like, what? He messed it all up. And then all these guys start coming toward Kabi and he grabs a water bottle. He starts baptizing him like, no, I don't think you can do that. And I'm like, maybe, I don't know. Splash me, buddy. So what I want to do is like re-think some of our views about right and wrong. I would go with the things that tell you they're wrong. Go with that. But the people that have done wrong, I just don't see our friend that I'm going to take to Disneyland for who he used to be. I see him for who he's turning into. He's the guy, he's going to have a pink shirt on, I bet, because he followed my clothes washing instructions. Like, I think he's going to have an experience where he's going to go to the back of the line where he thought he was going to get cuts to the front of the line. And I think we can engineer that in our friends. Not that everybody's a teachable moment or everybody's a project at all, but that we're doing life with a ton of intention, with like our eyes fixed on stuff that's going to actually be lasting in our lives. And then you don't need to be talking people into or out of anything. I think I've appreciated that about you. Like you are trying to talk me in. I have a strange relationship. And I remember you saying, hey, why don't you write a letter to that person? And I was like, oh, really? You know, and you said like, you know, you weren't like dumping on me. It wasn't code rainbow. You were saying, what if I write, and you know, here's the deal. I wrote the letter and that didn't make me either the hero or the victim of the story, but it did make me a participant. And I'm grateful for people that would be among your aid that will help you write the letters that need to get written and not to have a response. And that doesn't make the other person, the good person or the bad person. It just, it's like you did your part, and because I could lean on a trusted friend to encourage me to take the next step, then there's a freedom that comes with that. Is it all fixed? No, it's all fixed. But you know what? I'm making headway. And those will be the things, is give me the guts to show up for other people, to ask them to do hard things, because of a friend who told me, hey, do a hard thing. It's not even sucking it up. It's that you would show up more for your family, more for the people that mattered, if you'll do a couple hard things. And so I will always be grateful for that encouragement.

Speaker 2:
[93:58] Thank you. Well, that's the reason I wanted there. I could go into it. We could be here nine hours, and I'd never run out of stories. I could go into a vault of stories that I think, and I think a lot of people that are familiar with you and followed your work and read your books know some of these. But the reason I wanted to recall one of those, what I think is a foundational story, was because I think it's never been more relevant than where we are today as a humankind. I think we're not participating at large the way I've seen us at other times in history. But I think we're right on the precipice of being able to step back into that. And so if anybody's out there and you're listening and you're feeling a little isolated, a little defeated, maybe a little frustrated by what the story we're getting fed is how polarized things are. And I don't doubt that it's definitely a polarized climate. Yet none of us are a hero or a victim, but we can't all be participants. And I really believe we can show up not just for the people who we most relate to and that are easy to love, we can also show up for the people who are hard to hear and hard to tolerate. And I think once the temperature starts to get turned down a little bit, then we'll do what we talked about earlier and we'll extend a bridge. And I think we can start trusting each other again. And I really believe the way humanity gets out of this and comes back to itself is when we separate our differences and we lock arms with our truth and everybody's truth may be a little different, but I think we can come together and participate in each other's stories again. And I think that's what we're longing for. I personally, you know, earlier you were saying it's hard to be the balloon guy all the time. And it can also be hard to be the guy that is in the deep end all the time. Because sometimes you're not looked up on like, oh, I can't wait to have you at the party. What are you doing? You reading my lunch over there? And I've had to learn to flex this other muscle more, where you had to learn to drop in and build some depth. I don't lighten up with somebody until I really get some miles on the relationship. So sometimes people never meet my funny or my humor muscle.

Speaker 1:
[96:09] Yeah, because you're like a really fun guy.

Speaker 2:
[96:11] Yeah, you know me as like a goof. Oh, yeah, totally.

Speaker 1:
[96:14] A misdemeanor is like the bottom and it goes up from there.

Speaker 2:
[96:19] But for some reason, the way I position is often I lean more into a little bit of flat affect. So that can be misunderstanding too. But as I look at where we are today, and that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you, and it's why it's so meaningful to me, because I'm just so re-encouraged by the trail of stories that you've brought to us, and by especially the one you're living into now, that I'm looking at the hourglass up here about where we go next. I really feel like a lot of stuff's dropped through, and I think we're getting ready to turn this baby over and start meeting each other where we deserve to be met. And when I think about your legacy, it's building itself, but I used to think it was, look at what all Bob has done. He's one of the most highest capacity guys I know. Of all my friends, I've never seen anybody that can handle the volume of things that you create and innovate. And it is one of your super powers, and it's fun to watch. But really, it's the stuff that every Thursday you're saying, but this really matters. And I want to be known for all, that's fine if all that happens, but I really want to be known for taking Lindsay to the airport. Or spending time with my grandkids, or spending time with my friends. And I want to be known for that too, because what we do know about the eight people standing around our bed is that they've not been asked a lot of questions, but who has been asked a lot of questions are the people on that deathbed. They've been interviewed a lot, and we kind of know the common theme that they come up with at the end of life, which is this is the stuff that matters. More than anything we'll accomplish is the relationships that we can pour into. So thank you for being one of my eight. Thank you for pouring into me over the years, the way that you do. Thank you for being who you are. I feel like I'm saying that on behalf of a whole lot of people that look up to you, but I just, I love you. I love your family. I love our friendship. And in many ways, I don't see it as the last child. I think we're just getting started. I think this season of life, I'm just excited to share more of it with you.

Speaker 1:
[98:17] So, yeah, I'm just thinking I want to say too, all of that, you know, kind of end of camp slideshow, all these slides are coming to mind. You and Vanessa, Sweet Marie and I at Disneyland, before you were engaged, an engagement, some kids start showing up, some adventures together.

Speaker 2:
[98:38] Crab fishing together.

Speaker 1:
[98:40] Yeah, that's what we got.

Speaker 2:
[98:41] No wait, I messed that up. It's crabbing, right?

Speaker 1:
[98:43] Yeah, yeah, we got it.

Speaker 2:
[98:44] It's not crab fishing, but you had to...

Speaker 1:
[98:45] At the end of the day, man, it's just dungeness.

Speaker 2:
[98:47] I'm a fisherman, but I've never done it with crab. You taught me all about that.

Speaker 1:
[98:50] But I think there's just something, so my hope for somebody listening is that when you see friendships that involve lots of different layering, then endeavor to do that. Don't try to just take the next layer with somebody. Call them up and say, hey, I was talking to some friends or listening to the thing. What's it feel like to be you right now? And let me tell you for three minutes, let me just tell you what it feels like to be me, and don't say anything. And then you go for three minutes, and take them to Starbucks, make them pay, and then have just three minutes of vulnerability. And I bet you will have filled one of your eight. And then to say, I'm gonna be in the hunt, who's the next one? And three minutes, and maybe a no-go, don't make a new rule, I'm never going deep with anybody, just try somebody else, and you'll find those. So thanks for being that, and you've been there at the most difficult parts of our story so far, and we're counting on you to continue to track with us, and we'll be there for you.

Speaker 2:
[99:50] Yeah, amen. And I would say, allow yourself to be wild and surprised about who that might be, because you hear us talking about some commons that we have, but we were an unlikely friendship, and that's my favorite part about it. We didn't come together immediately on, here's what you believe, and I believe the same thing, so we should be friends. It was like, here's two people that, we didn't even get to that until later. It was just two people that kind of connected and saw a common, and we built it from there, and it's been really fun to do. So I hope if you're out there today, be encouraged, because I am, to sit across from one of my good friends today and for you guys to hear his heart. So thank you, buddy.

Speaker 1:
[100:24] Thanks, bud.

Speaker 2:
[100:25] Well, that's a wrap, and I just want to share my gratitude, and thank you all so much for following along on this journey and for subscribing and leaving us reviews and sharing these podcast episodes. This has been so meaningful and encouraging to me, and it's been encouraging to a lot of other people as well. You are the fuel behind this whole thing for me. When I hear from you, when we get to engage with you, it really pushes us to want to continue to take these conversations to more and more people who we really feel like deserve to grow, change, and heal. So I hope you'll follow along. I hope you'll subscribe. I hope you'll leave us some reviews, and I just want to say thank you again, and I'll see you next time on Human School.