transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:05] Unscripted, unfiltered, unafraid, welcome to the Macworld Podcast. My name is Michael Simon, and I am joined by my colleague Jason Cross.

Speaker 2:
[00:12] Good morning.

Speaker 1:
[00:13] Our producer Roman Loyola.

Speaker 3:
[00:16] Ahoy there.

Speaker 1:
[00:17] And our special guest, Filipe Esposito.

Speaker 4:
[00:20] Hey there.

Speaker 1:
[00:22] This is episode number 980, Roman. We're only 20 away now. It's exciting. And our special guest today is Filipe Esposito. He is pretty well known, very well known in the Apple community. If you've read, you know, any rumor sites over the last, I don't know, how long Filipe? Five years? Have you been 10 years? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[00:49] More than six years, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[00:51] Okay. Yeah. He's been around a while and his name is very well known, great writer, great to work with. And we're happy to have him right for Macworld. And we're even happier to have him on the podcast today. He just published a story last week, leaking the iPhone 18 Pro color. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about scoops and leaks and the things that he does, because I'm super interested. We've talked about it personally, but it's a fascinating subject. And I'm sure that people listening to this podcast would love to know as much as you're willing to share, of course, about that whole process. And then we're going to have this week in Apple history, and we'll close with our Common Corner. But first, we had big news. And we were just talking about how to handle this big news, because we're not really prepared to make it a whole show, but it deserves a whole show. But if you missed it, which I'm sure you didn't, Tim Cook is stepping down as Apple CEO, which we expected. Jason and I were talking about this when the news broke yesterday. We expected it. We as an Apple journalist expected it. I don't know how many people outside of people who religiously follow Apple News expected that, but even us, the timing was surprising. And it was at 4.30, of course, after the closing bell of the stock market closed, it didn't wreak havoc on the stock price, because Tim Cook is very much aware of that stuff. But as of September 1st, Tim Cook will no longer be CEO of Apple. He is replaced by John Ternes, who another name that we know really well in the Apple community. He's the hardware chief. Yeah, we need time. So next week is going to be devoted to Tim Cook and John Ternes. Just real quick, I found the timing to be most surprising of all, because it's September 1st, which is right before the iPhone launch. So Tim Cook technically won't be CEO when the big iPhone, folding iPhone comes out.

Speaker 2:
[03:08] Yeah, we thought Cook would go out with fixing Siri, folding iPhone, like a big go out on a big thing. And I think instead they decided, let's let the new guy start with all that. You know, set him up for success with a bunch of new products and fixing Siri and all that other stuff.

Speaker 1:
[03:28] I assume Cook does the WWDC keynote, like the main parts of that.

Speaker 2:
[03:34] I would assume, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[03:35] Right, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[03:36] But we'll see more Ternus in that, for sure.

Speaker 4:
[03:40] Yeah, I was also wondering if Ternus will host the next WWDC or kick off with the iPhone 18 event.

Speaker 1:
[03:46] Right.

Speaker 2:
[03:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[03:47] I mean, they could do like a transition, but they both do it.

Speaker 4:
[03:50] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[03:51] They kind of come out together and Tim does this good morning thing and Ternus says something.

Speaker 2:
[03:55] And I think it's got to start. Well, it always starts with a skit, a silly skit. After the skit, I think it's got to be Cook comes out with his prayer hands and you know, that he does. And then, but we'll probably see more Ternus than we'd usually do. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[04:13] Yeah, maybe so. He's definitely a lot younger than Cook. I don't know what his age is, but he's probably about 20 years younger than Tim Cook. He's, you know, he's been around Apple for a while. So anyway, next week we'll have a whole show devoted to who he is, Tim Cook's legacy, the problems and the pitfalls and the questions we have and all that stuff. So next week, I skipped over this, but I'll do it now. If you want to contact us before next week, you can search for us on Blue Sky Facebook threads, search for Macworld, look for the Blue Mouse Logo, send an email to podcast.macworld.com, tell us what you're thinking about, Tim Cook, about John Turnis, about rumors, about leaks, whatever you want to send us. Find a story, comment underneath it, whatever it is, and we'll sort through all those and talk about them on a future show. But this show is all about leaks and rumors. So as I said at the beginning of the show, Filipe just published a story on Macworld on Friday that, you know, revealed, we'll say, the four colors that Apple is developing for the iPhone 18 Pro. I'm just gonna ask the question right off the top, Filipe. When you get a rumor like that, like how do you know that you can trust it?

Speaker 4:
[05:35] Yeah, that's a good question actually, because, you know, as an Apple reporter, a tech reporter, I do hear a lot of stuff from a lot of people all the time. So it's hard to know when something is right and something is just like some random thing, someone made up. But over time, I have, you know, I build trust with my sources. So I have some people that I trust very well. Because, for example, last year, I reported for Macworld the colors for the iPhone 17 Pro models. And essentially, we were right about the new colors. We reported on the black color that never happened, but also Son Dixon did the same. And that's because, you know, Apple can change things. That's why sometimes we reported on things and they never happened. But it's the same source this year. So I can trust him. I can trust this person. It's someone connected to, you know, Apple's supply chain. So this person knows, he's familiar with everything Apple is doing right now. So that's someone that when this person tells me, hey, Apple is doing this, Apple is trying experimenting with this color, I'm like, okay, I can trust this person now.

Speaker 1:
[07:01] Yeah. When this person or some other person first contacts you, like what's the process you go through to vet whether or not they're legitimately, whether they have legitimate information that you can publish?

Speaker 4:
[07:18] Well, I usually try to double cross information, like I try to verify with other sources as well, like I don't have a single source. Usually, I have this person that tells me something, and then I wait a bit until someone else also tells me at least something similar. Then I'm like, okay, this person told me this, and someone else is telling me a similar story, so there's something here. That's when I know that I can publish a story, that I became confident in publishing a story.

Speaker 5:
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Speaker 1:
[08:25] Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it's, is there trepidation? Like the first time you use a source.

Speaker 4:
[08:34] Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I heard things from someone. I'd never talked before. That can happen as well, of course. Then I have to just like, first, of course, talk to another sources to see if they know something about that. But sometimes they don't. And I have to be like, hmm, does that make any sense? Like, would Apple do this?

Speaker 2:
[09:01] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[09:01] So yeah, I could be wrong if I published that story, but it's part of the job.

Speaker 1:
[09:08] Yeah. Do you feel like your, your credibility is such that, so in the Apple world, there are so many like known leakers. So I'll use Mark Gurman, cause he's probably the most high profile. And did you, did you work with Mark? Cause you, you both come from nine to five. Did you, did you work with him at all? Or did you, did your past not, not overlap?

Speaker 4:
[09:32] No, not really. I think Mark Gurman left nine to five Mac, like one or two years before I joined. So I know Mark, like I talked to him a lot actually, but like never worked directly with him. But he, he's like our main reference today when it comes to Apple leaks, of course.

Speaker 1:
[09:55] Yeah. I mean, he has incredible sources. Like I don't even know if, I assume there's multiple, but he definitely has tapped into Apple beyond anyone else out there. So if he publishes something wrong, so we'll talk about the Tim Cook saga. He reported last year, I want to say, he was one of the first to report that there was a succession plan in place. And then the Wall Street Journal, no, it was the Financial Times published a story that said, like it's happening sometime this year. And Gurman came out and said, no, that's not right. There's no timeline. This is a long process. And then there's like, kind of like fighting, like infighting between him and the reporter of that story. And then someone else will chime in. And then, you know, like, there's kind of like an antagonistic view between all these guys. Do you feel that ever? Like, do people attack you when you're wrong? Or do people say like, you know, like I reported this before you and I should get credit and you're just copying me. And does that ever affect you?

Speaker 4:
[11:05] Yeah, it's always easy to say that someone made a mistake of course, so that happens a lot when I'm wrong. And I see the same thing happen with Mark, for example. Like, the thing is, anyone reporting at this level is that, especially when it comes to products, for example, that we often are seeing different stages of the product cycle. So, sometimes, our report is accurate, but Apple faces some hurdle or they need to change anything. And then, what we reported, it never happened, it never becomes, never sees the light of day. So, people look at us and say, hey, you're wrong. Hey, you're not a good reporter. But, you know, everything can change at any time. So, that happens a lot when it comes to reporting.

Speaker 1:
[11:59] Yep. Jason, I'm monopolizing the whole conversation. I want to give you a chance to either ask a question or make a comment or something before.

Speaker 2:
[12:11] You're asking mostly the things that I would ask or at least, you know, give Filipe the opportunity to remind our readership of is that, you know, when leaks like this happen, basic journalistic practices apply, like multiple sources confirming each other, and things like the leak or the information can be accurate, and that doesn't mean it will come to pass. Like at this time, Apple's considering these four colors, and that can be true, and then they don't end up shipping black. And that doesn't mean you were wrong, it means you accurately reported what was in process at the time. We just need to, from our end, be careful that we let people know that when we report these things. Like that this isn't set in stone, that this is where they are now, and these things can change.

Speaker 1:
[13:10] Yeah, even though Apple, like the design and the manufacturing is set, like as you publish the story, mass production hasn't started yet, so they can easily pull back a color because they don't like it, or they don't like the finish, they don't like the light reflects off it, or whatever it is. So, they're probably not going to create a new one, but they could certainly pull back on the ones that they're experimenting with or developing. Can you get upset because... Oh, sorry, Jason, you can have a question.

Speaker 2:
[13:42] To your point about, like, when German reported about the secession plan last year, and they were fighting about the timing and stuff, that was probably true. And Apple probably, in that time, has looked at it and said, like, you know what, no, it makes more sense to set up Ternus for success now by making sure that he's in before all these big things ship. We have a big fall lined up. Maybe some of that had to happen with they never shipped the Siri update this spring that was kind of targeted for this spring, and it's all being wrapped into an even bigger one in the 27 update. Maybe they're seeing that as a real turning point for Apple, this whole, the six months between say September and the spring releases next year. Like all the new products and new software and everything going on there. And they're like, boy, that's a great way to start off the new CEO. Let's make this transaction happen earlier. That doesn't mean German was wrong. That just means that's where they were then when he reported on it. So, yeah, reminding people the difference between... When the company is secretive as Apple, where the only news you have are leaks and rumors for so long, then it's really important to just keep reminding people that even accurate leaks and rumors change before it happens. So...

Speaker 4:
[15:03] Yeah, yeah. Again, there's a big difference between a report being wrong and Apple simply changing its planes. Like our job is to report what's happening right now. Like if someone shows me something Apple is doing, I'm like, okay, I need to report this. But planes can change. Like Apple might be working on a new color and at some point they might not like that color anymore. They may realize the color is like brought to scratches and they may scrap it. So that happens a lot. A great example is AirPower. Like Apple announced it's something that never happened.

Speaker 1:
[15:42] They were their own leak for that one.

Speaker 2:
[15:44] Yeah, they even announced it.

Speaker 4:
[15:48] So that happens a lot.

Speaker 1:
[15:50] Yeah, I mean, it helps when you get something right. So your source last year nailed Cosmic Orange. It got the silver color right. Most of the iPhone 17 colors are red, except for black. Oh no, no, no, there was black. I think gray maybe. But when it's like 90% accurate, like at least you know this person is plugged in at a specific point along the supply chain. So we can accurately say this is, might not happen in September, but it's happening right now. And that's important.

Speaker 4:
[16:25] And I try to be transparent as possible when it comes to the stage of development. Like this is what I know right now. This is what they're doing right now, but it might not make the final cut.

Speaker 1:
[16:37] Right. Yeah, you wrote that. We of course ran the headline iPhone 18 Colors Revealed because it's the other.

Speaker 4:
[16:43] Yeah, yeah, of course. We like big headlines.

Speaker 1:
[16:46] Right, right. Headlines are the most important thing to draw people in. But yeah, your reporting absolutely made it clear that any of these could change at any time. But that, so that cherry red color, I think that was probably gonna happen. We've heard rumors of red for a while. So you got access to the actual Pantone shade of red. And it's an interesting red. It looks like it's like purple in some lights and it's red in other lights. And it kind of changed the face on.

Speaker 2:
[17:18] I'm hearing a lot of people say it's purple and they were expecting something with more red in it. But Apple always has the one highlight color, right? And the other colors are not a highlight color. It's silver, black and light blue. So if they dump anything, I'm going to guess it's that dark gray, that almost black again. But I'm curious what you think of that dark cherry red that's not really very cherry red. It's very purple. And what are people going to make of that when it hits the market? Because the Cosmic Orange was divisive, but the people who love it flocked to it. And it blew up in China.

Speaker 4:
[18:02] Yeah. First, I have to admit, light blue was a bit of a surprise for me because we've been hearing a lot about a red iPhone. I know some people are upset because they were expecting a bright red and dark cherry is not that.

Speaker 1:
[18:17] Yeah, like that product red, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[18:19] Yeah, it's almost like a brownish red. I don't know, but it's not the bright red people we're expecting, but I'm very confident about the dark cherry. That's the color. I believe it will be the main new color, the color that we'll see with marketing images, for example, like the Cosmic Orange today. But yeah, that will be the main color. I don't know if I'm going with this color, but it looks cool. I'm more like right now I have the silver iPhone. I like more traditional colors, but I know some people will be happy with it. But I don't know. We'll see if black will happen, for example. I know a lot of people that miss the black option. And every year, last year, for example, we reported there will be a black option, Apple scrap it at a last minute. But we'll see. Also, I want to hear about you guys, like your favorite colors, what colors you're likely to get this year. And of course, there's the fold. You know, it will only have two colors, according to our report.

Speaker 2:
[19:32] True. For me, I mean, I don't know if I'm going to get the fold, because given what the price is, it's going to have to do something with software that's impressive, not just be folding hardware. But I tend toward the flat black things, matte black stuff, because it goes with everything. You could put a case on it, whatever. And I really like what they call dark gray, which is very much, it's darker than everything that they called space gray for a while. There are like 20 different tones of space gray. So I like that, but it's also, given last year, I think it's the process that they use to bond a color to this thing, it's hard to get a really black color that doesn't scratch and so on. So it also might be the one that they kind of skip more than any other this year. When they first said dark red, I thought, oh man, they're really going after China because the orange is big in China and there's a shade of red, that sort of vermilion red that's considered very lucky in China, it's very popular. So I thought they were going to go with that. And then when this Pantone cover came out, it's like, that is not the red that is popular in China. It is way too purple, it's way too dark. It doesn't hit that same cultural note. So it's curious to me that they went with that after getting rid of, like you said, they got rid of the product red colors and they brought that in. So if I had to get one, like I'm leaning toward that dark gray, which is damn near black, it looks great to me.

Speaker 1:
[21:17] Yeah, I like the cherry red or dark cherry whatever it's called. I think if that's what it's called and that's what it looks like, I think people are going to be like, what the hell, that's not cherry. Like when we think of cherry, at least in the US, we think of red. Even if it's a dark red, it's still red.

Speaker 2:
[21:38] Very red, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[21:39] This is like a wine color.

Speaker 2:
[21:41] Yeah. This is like a Merlot or something.

Speaker 1:
[21:43] Yeah, like a Merlot. Perfect. I think it's a classy color. I like it. It's different. It's unique compared to other iPhone, certainly Pro colors. I'd love to know the story behind Cosmic Orange, who suggested it at Apple, where, because it was out of left field. They've been doing very muted, kind of, for lack of a better word, professional colors.

Speaker 2:
[22:08] For the pro stuff, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:10] And then all of a sudden, they're like, bang, here's the brightest color we ever made.

Speaker 2:
[22:15] And it was a hit. It was a huge hit, yeah. It was a huge hit. So, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:21] I think this...

Speaker 4:
[22:25] When it comes to the shade of color, compared to the Pantone that we leaked versus the final product, we need to understand, of course, that the Pantone is just a starting point, a reference. It's a technical guide for the factories. But in the real world, we have... The material changes everything. For example, like the titanium, the aluminum, like the light reflects differently. So, last year, for example, we had the code for Cosmic Orange. If you look at the Pantone reference, it was much softer and like less vibrant than the color, how the color looks in the product. So, I believe something similar will happen this year with Dark Cherry or whatever Apple calls it.

Speaker 2:
[23:14] And it was called... The Pantone tone for that isn't Cosmic Orange, it's something else.

Speaker 4:
[23:21] Yeah, yeah, it's something else.

Speaker 2:
[23:22] The Pantone's name, Pantone's like a brand for colors. So, I don't think Apple is going to call that color Dark Cherry. That's Pantone's color. They're going to give it some other branding name.

Speaker 1:
[23:39] Yeah, I'm just looking at the story. We called it, or Filipe, you called it... Hold on. I think it was just orange. Oh, that's the air. Hold on. Here it is. Yeah, it was just orange, or Papaya was the Pantone color.

Speaker 4:
[23:57] Yeah, it was Papaya.

Speaker 1:
[23:59] Yeah. So, I'm looking at the image that you made based on the Pantone code. And yeah, it's quite a bit different than the orange that Apple presented. I mean, it's still the same family. But and the dark blue, the same thing with the dark blue. It's all there. It's just, you know, it's going to be Apple's interpretation of...

Speaker 2:
[24:24] Yeah, the way the light shines off of it is going to make it look a certain way. Like that brightness of the... It's the exact same orange if you just kind of did a color picker on it, between the Papaya and Cosmic Orange. But the way it kind of shines because of the material and stuff gives it that almost glowing, bright look to it, that almost highlighter look. So yeah, we don't know how that's going to turn out with Dark Cherry.

Speaker 4:
[24:51] Yeah, I'm interested to come up with that. Yeah, yeah, Apple will probably come up with a different name and the shade of dark red might look a little different in the final version, of course.

Speaker 1:
[25:01] Yeah, I like Merlot's, Jason's Merlot idea. Like that would play well, I think. And it makes it closer to that. Yeah, all right, back to leaks, Filipe. So you've leaked a lot over the years, a couple with us a lot with 9to5. What was your favorite or the one that you were most proud of over the years?

Speaker 4:
[25:29] Yeah, I have a few in my list. Okay, my first one was probably when I leaked the iPhone X ability to record 4K videos at 60 FPS. That was probably my first leak. That was back when I had my own personal blog. I wasn't writing for 9to5 or anyone else. And that was my first. But my favorite was probably when I leaked the new materials for Apple Watch Series 5. The Apple was working on Titanium and Ceramic versions. That was also for my personal blog. And at the time, when I leaked that, everyone else was like, oh wow, this guy, he knows how to find stuff. So that's when I joined 9to5 Mac, for example.

Speaker 1:
[26:22] Okay. Do you get upset when people take... Like, so let's go with the Apple Watch Series 5 rumor. You know, we credit you and other sites credit you a lot. Don't. Do you get upset or you just kind of be like, you know, like, at least my stuff's getting out there?

Speaker 4:
[26:41] Yeah, to be honest, it can be very frustrating sometime because when it comes to leaks, I spend maybe days, maybe weeks digging through codes and like learning how to find this stuff, learning how to understand. IOS code, how to break the pharma encryption to dig into the files. So it takes a lot to verify all that. So when a big publication or another leak takes that info and they don't give me proper credit, it hurts a bit. I know it happens. I know it can happen sometimes, actually happens a lot, but yeah, it hurts a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[27:22] Do you ever reach out and be like, hey, you know, that's my work that you just stole or do you just kind of let it go?

Speaker 4:
[27:28] Well, at first, I try to, but now I just, I try to not care because I have more important things to do.

Speaker 1:
[27:39] Right. I mean, you did get a lot of, I mean, every single site picked up your story from last week and, you know, I didn't see many who didn't credit at least Macworld. So there is that. Like it's gotten better, I think, as, you know, as Apple has kind of, you know, gotten bigger and more, you know, even like the New York Times and USA Today, like they all cover, to an extent, Apple rumors. It's become kind of standard practice now to at least have a link somewhere in there that gives credit. It might be hard to find, but it's usually there.

Speaker 4:
[28:12] Yeah, yeah. It's definitely getting better. Like major tech websites, they give credit. They are giving more credit now, which I really appreciate. But I think the main problem right now is when it comes to social networks like Twitter, for example, there are so many profiles that just copy and paste, and they take the info, they take the images, and they don't mention you, they don't link to your original story. So that's a bit frustrating.

Speaker 1:
[28:42] Yeah, it's true. There's a lot of us, but particularly on Twitter, that I saw your image on a bunch of sites that claim to have sources, and they don't. They just find stuff online, they publish it, and they don't credit it.

Speaker 2:
[28:56] Yeah, totally agree there. The short form video ones are the worst. Like your TikToks and Instagram videos and stuff like that, they never credit anybody for anything. They just copy, recopy images, recopy videos and republish them and stuff. It's just a mess.

Speaker 1:
[29:13] So, you were just talking about digging into the code. That Apple Watch leak, is that how you found the ceramic and titanium was inside Apple code or iOS code?

Speaker 4:
[29:27] Yeah, that's a fun story. I think at the time it was iOS 13. Yeah, I found these files, they're assets, like the images and videos that Apple uses for iOS, watchOS, whatever. So, in one of the betas, Apple added some new videos for the setup screen. When you turn off the Apple Watch for the first time and you see the Apple logo, the ring. So, they added new videos. And in these videos, they had versions with ceramic and titanium. And I was like, there's no Apple Watch in titanium right now. There was one in ceramic, but it was an older model. And so, what I had to do is I looked at the video resolution. And it didn't match the resolution of the Apple Watch Series 2, which is the one I believe it had the ceramic version. So, it was a different resolution, like a higher resolution. That made me believe that these assets were made for a new version of the Apple Watch, which was true at the time.

Speaker 1:
[30:33] That's super interesting. Yeah, I'm not a code guy, so I'm just amazed that not only are you able to get into the code, but able to understand. Because a lot of the times, you'll pull out like a number, and that number will pertain to a code with an Apple, which pertains to a product that hasn't shipped yet. It's pretty remarkable what you're able to do with that stuff.

Speaker 2:
[30:57] I'm actually a little bit stunned that nobody can even get into it anymore.

Speaker 1:
[31:01] Right.

Speaker 2:
[31:02] That they haven't somehow locked this down to where you can't even... Where it's all just not encrypted more than it is. It kind of blows my mind. I guess they can't do that with all parts of it, but yeah.

Speaker 4:
[31:18] Yeah, it's incredible how Apple leaves these things behind. For example, when it comes to the iPhone X, they leaked it, if I recall correctly, it was an internal farmer for the HomePod. Apple had just announced the HomePod on the PC, and they mistakenly released an internal build of iOS for HomePod. And that build, since it was an internal build, it had files like icons, assets for the iPhone X. And it wasn't called iPhone X, it was D22. That was the code name back then. But it was like, okay, this is the code name for a new iPhone, for an unreleased iPhone, it has a new design, so that's probably the new iPhone. So yeah, it's impressive how Apple sometimes leave these things behind.

Speaker 1:
[32:09] Yeah, I remember though, like I had just started working for this company. I wasn't working for Macworld. I was working for actually Jason at GreenBot. It was an Android site.

Speaker 2:
[32:19] I know.

Speaker 1:
[32:19] But like the iPhone X was so big. Yeah, right. The iPhone X was so big, like Macworld pulled me over just to work like double time because these leaks, I guess they were your leaks. Like it was like the weekend or two before the event, and it was like we had to publish all these stories. I think it was a Saturday night or Friday night. It was a weekend. But yeah, I don't remember it being your name, but it must have been. Either that or I got it from another site via your site.

Speaker 4:
[32:53] Yeah, Apple also after this leak, Apple also leaked the GM, back then it was called GM, the GM build for the new iOS, iOS 11. So also in this build, we had a lot of information about iPhone X, about Apple Watch Series 3. So we were able to confirm things like Face ID and emoji, that Apple Watch Series 3 would have cellular connection. And it was fun because it was a race against time, because other tech websites, like they also have people that knows how to dig into this code. They know how to break stuff, how to read stuff. But it was a chaotic week. And for sure, I remember very well.

Speaker 1:
[33:45] Okay, here's a question for you. Not about leaks. What rumored product, whether you leaked it or not, are you most excited to see this year? And Jason, you can answer this too.

Speaker 2:
[33:59] Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because compared to other years, there's kind of a lot right now.

Speaker 1:
[34:06] There's a lot, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[34:06] There's fairly firm reporting that Apple's got this in the works or even ready to go, but it's not out yet. And it's different. It's not just the next iPhone, right? You've got the folding iPhone, you've got a touchscreen Mac, we've got the Home Hub thing, new HomePods we have. So there's more coming, I think, in the next year that's not just the same old thing from Apple. If it doesn't get pushed all back again. So yeah, I'm curious. What are you in particular looking forward to?

Speaker 4:
[34:42] Yeah, I know a lot of people are interested right now in the iPhone Fold. That's the start of the show, that it will be the start of the show this year. This may be a bit unexpected choice for me, but I'm very interested in the new HomePad, the HomePod with the screen, because I know most people probably don't care about the HomePod, but this specific product, it has been leaking for a long time. We've been hearing a lot about it for a long time. There are thousands of reference about it inside the code, the current code, the current iOS code. We've been seeing parts of it leaking online, so everyone's talking about it, but where's this product? I need to see this product. I need to see it. Like, oh my god, this is the thing.

Speaker 2:
[35:34] I'm actually right with you on this. Yeah, I'm exactly right with you because we know it's going to require a sort of different method of interaction. It's not just an iPad, you know. It's not going to have an app store and stuff like that. So they're going to be doing some things different with the interface. It's a product that I personally want because I used to use a Google Home Hub in the kitchen for cooking stuff and everything all the time. And to have one where I can FaceTime somebody while I'm in the kitchen doing stuff and everything. That would be great. We actually got rid of the Google one because in all their updates, they made things worse. They ruined shopping lists and everything else. They just ruined so many things. We're just like, you know what? So it's a product I personally want to buy. I'm very interested in seeing what they're doing. It's a new category of stuff for them. It requires this new series that's the big hold up apparently, so they can't get the new series out. When it comes to the folding phone, I've been watching folding phones from Android for years now, and never once have I looked at them saying, I got to have that. I always look at it and go like, well, that's just another step before I can use my phone. Now I got to take it out and unfold it. Unless Apple does something with software on the folding phone that really makes me interested and go like, oh wow, that's such a clever idea. You couldn't do that on a flat iPhone that makes such great use of this capability. I'm not really interested in spending $2,000 on that. I'm interested in spending $300 on a Home Hub where I can FaceTime my mom while I'm in the kitchen.

Speaker 1:
[37:18] I like the form factor of the folding phone, which now everyone is doing because they heard Apple was doing it. So Huawei just came out with one. Samsung is making one. I like the size of it. I'm very interested to, I don't know if I'm going to buy one either for $2,000. Maybe I have the air right now. I like the small kind of skinniness of it. The folding phone is going to be much thicker and stuff. But the form factor intrigues me because there must be a reason beyond just it's better for watching movies, why Apple chose this specific size.

Speaker 2:
[37:54] That passport aspect ratio, yeah. It is interesting. Like you said, everyone's already, Honor is already out there where the copy is.

Speaker 6:
[38:04] No one goes to Hank's for his spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately though, the shop's been quiet. So Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks Copilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs to help him see if he can afford it. Copilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now Hank says, I'll line out the door. Hank makes the pizza. Copilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at m365copilot.com/work. Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them, that's bull spend.

Speaker 3:
[38:39] And marketers are calling it out. In Dashboard Confessions. I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow.

Speaker 2:
[38:49] Yeah, it wasn't.

Speaker 6:
[38:51] Cut the bull spend.

Speaker 2:
[38:52] LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and more.

Speaker 1:
[38:56] Advertise on LinkedIn.

Speaker 2:
[38:57] Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit.

Speaker 6:
[39:00] Go to linkedin.com/campaignterms and conditions apply.

Speaker 4:
[39:05] Yeah, I had a good experience when I tested the Galaxy Z Fold. It's a good device. It's fun. You can watch videos on a big screen. If you want to edit a video, you have a big screen too. You have more air screen area. That's good for pro apps. But when I have to think about the trade-offs, we'll probably only have two cameras with this iPhone Fold. I love cameras a lot. I love photography. I don't want to miss the telephoto lens, for example. It's more expensive. It will be more expensive than the pro iPhone.

Speaker 1:
[39:43] Significantly more expensive.

Speaker 4:
[39:45] Yeah. I'll stick with the pro iPhones for now.

Speaker 1:
[39:50] Face ID seems to be the biggest thing I would miss.

Speaker 4:
[39:53] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:53] Assuming the rumors are correct, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[39:55] You know, I had a... Before buying an iPad Pro, I had the iPad Air. I'm not really a pro iPad user, so iPad Air was fine. But I hated touch ID, because having face ID, you just... Yeah, yeah, it's too bad. Like, face ID, you can just swipe and it's all over. So, I'm thinking the same for the default. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:17] Yeah, finding the power button to touch ID it.

Speaker 1:
[40:21] And it's the skinny little power button, so your finger has to be... So yeah, we'll see how Apple navigates that. It's a tough sell, regardless of how much it costs. Let's say it's 2,000, 1999, we'll say. It's a difficult sell to even people who are willing to spend that much on a new phone.

Speaker 4:
[40:41] Yeah, I know there are enthusiasts, but if I'm paying $2,000, I want the best screen, the best camera, the best authentication method, so.

Speaker 2:
[40:50] Right.

Speaker 1:
[40:50] Right. All right, Roman, I know we're getting close to an hour, but I got a couple more questions. My biggest one, Filipe, is have you ever been contacted by Apple to say knock it off?

Speaker 4:
[41:04] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[41:05] Or pressure you to reveal a source. Yeah, I imagine that. Where did you hear this?

Speaker 4:
[41:12] Like Apple usually tries to not about a source. Like they never ask about a source.

Speaker 2:
[41:18] That's good.

Speaker 4:
[41:19] Like, yeah. But once they were a bit upset with a specific story, and they were like, okay, like, we want you to take down the story. But usually Apple don't do this. Because they know if they ask someone to take down a story, they're essentially confirming that story, you know? So it's way better if they just ignore that and pretend it's not a thing. Because if they call a journalist and say, hey, like, take down the story, they're essentially saying that that story is true. Like you've got the right information. So that's why Apple usually don't do that. Don't do that unless it's a huge thing that may hurt them.

Speaker 1:
[42:04] I don't want you to reveal the story, but did you take it down?

Speaker 4:
[42:10] At the time, I had to change the story a bit. Like, I didn't like delete the story, but I changed it a bit to remove some information.

Speaker 1:
[42:21] Okay, interesting. So, but that's not common practice for Apple.

Speaker 4:
[42:27] Yeah, yeah, that's not a common practice. They usually don't care.

Speaker 1:
[42:31] Yeah, they've asked us to take down stories before, like op-eds that they don't agree with, or things that don't reflect their view of the world, or whatever it is, you know, like that. It's uncommon, but it does happen.

Speaker 4:
[42:47] Yeah, it might happen sometimes. Like, Apple used to be much more aggressive about this in the past. There's the classic iPhone 4 story, for example.

Speaker 1:
[42:57] Yeah, of course.

Speaker 4:
[42:57] They would get really angry and try to shut down everything, like especially under Steve Jobs. But today they seem much more relaxed about leaks. And I don't know, in some ways, that's my personal opinion, but I think the rumors actually help them because there's a lot of buzz and like hype of rumors. Like people want to know about the new iPhone. Even my friends that are not into tech, they're like, oh, tell me everything about the new iPhone. What do you know about the new iPhone? So yeah, people get excited about it.

Speaker 2:
[43:28] I get that from my dentist every time I go to the dentist because they have about 10 minutes to talk to you and they see you twice a year. So they don't know much about you and they have a million patients, but he knows what I do for a living. So every single time he wants me to tell him about the next iPhone. And I'm like, it's just like the last iPhone except better. Like, what do you want?

Speaker 4:
[43:48] It's going to be the same thing.

Speaker 2:
[43:50] Now it's red. It's true they generally don't go after people, but there are some very specific instances. Like we see what they're doing to John Prosser right now over how he got information about that iOS build and stuff. And it's usually when they have good information that somebody didn't get information from some other source, that they committed some act to get that information like direct from Apple. So because they're always going after sources, they're not going to find a reporter who has a source. They want to know who your source is. So yeah, they're trying to close those leaks.

Speaker 4:
[44:29] Yeah, I think it's important to distinguish between different types of reporting because like John Prosser is a very different story. In my opinion, he's currently facing the lawsuit from Apple because how he obtained this information, like according to Apple, he was trying to pay someone to access the device from someone that worked at Apple at the time. And as a journalist, like I have a degree in journalist, there are lines that you can cross.

Speaker 2:
[44:58] Absolutely not.

Speaker 4:
[44:59] Paying a source is one of them. So that's probably the main difference between a journalist and someone who just like reports stuff.

Speaker 2:
[45:07] Sure, that's a crime. Like actually, that's essentially, you know, industrial esposito, if you're paying somebody to give inside information of a company, then yeah, that's a line you never cross. And that's what they're alleging he did, and that's why they're going after him so hard. But to your point, that's the exception to the rule. For the most part, they don't go after people, they don't want the Streisand effect of like making, make drawing more attention to the story, or they don't want to confirm it's true by going like, this is the only one they tried to shut down, it must be true. So, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[45:42] Yeah, like of course, I talk to a lot of people inside Apple or related to Apple, but I never paid.

Speaker 2:
[45:48] Suppliers and stuff.

Speaker 4:
[45:49] Yeah, of course, but I never pay anything, so that's the main difference. Like I'm researching, I'm doing my research, but I'm not paying someone to steal info from Apple and give it to me.

Speaker 2:
[46:00] Yeah, we wouldn't run your story if we found out you paid somebody. Absolutely not, because that puts us on the line, too.

Speaker 1:
[46:07] Right, right. Yeah, the process story is interesting. I don't know how many people really are following it. We don't publish every bit of it, because we'll see once it reaches a jury stage, if it gets that far, but it's fascinating because he's just a YouTube guy. I interviewed him a long time ago, and he's not a journal, he doesn't appear to be a journalist. He's just a YouTuber. And I could see how the desire or the need to keep producing videos that people click on and watch could lead to this guy knows this guy, if I give him 500 bucks, he'll be able to get this and show me like, it's a cutthroat world. So like, I'm not excusing it, of course, but I do understand how, someone without a journalistic background, someone without the foundation that you have could get caught up in the wrong thing. And he's in a little bit of trouble.

Speaker 2:
[47:08] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:09] Jason said, we're talking about industrial and espionage, kind of, it's not great. I assume they'll settle of some sort, but I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[47:21] Yeah, we only know what Apple's claiming he did. We don't have the details.

Speaker 4:
[47:27] You know, that's probably why I still have a good relationship with Apple despite being a leaker, because I'm leaking stuff, but I never paid someone. So yeah, I can still have a good relationship with Apple. I go to Apple events sometimes and all this stuff.

Speaker 2:
[47:46] Well, I do think you have all understand. Oh, go ahead.

Speaker 1:
[47:50] No, no, you can go, because I was going to change. I was going to jump into a new segment. So if you have a related question.

Speaker 2:
[47:55] I do think Apple understands, just based on sort of how our relationship with them is, the difference between somebody who's getting inside and somebody, something where it's essentially their fault. Like if you dig into code that they left open and find information, I think they understand, oop, that's on us. Like that was our mess up. They then they're not mad at you personally for finding the door they left open, you know?

Speaker 4:
[48:23] Yeah, yeah, that's how I see things. Yeah, they understand that a journalist is going to report on things.

Speaker 1:
[48:29] Yeah, right. And you know, they should be flattered that we care so much to report on colors.

Speaker 2:
[48:36] And if they're going to be the most secretive four trillion company in the world, four trillion dollar company in the world, then you know, they got to expect there's going to be some of this. If all you've got is rumors.

Speaker 1:
[48:47] Right. They only release like what? 10, 12 products a year. We got to fill in the other 24 weeks. 48 weeks. So you mentioned a couple of minutes ago that you went to an Apple event. Let's just jump to, I was going to have a segment called Where in the World because you're in Brazil. We had no knowledge of this event taking place, but does Apple kind of hold these little miniature influencer events regularly? Have you been to a few of them?

Speaker 4:
[49:21] Yeah, sometimes, but this was the first one in Brazil. They call it an Apple Workshop. It was the first Apple Workshop here in Brazil, São Paulo. It was an event specifically for content creators. They invited some journalists, but it was mostly for content creators. And the idea was to show people the latest hardware and how people can use all of them, how they work seamlessly together. So we had access to the entire iPhone 17 lineup, the M4 iPad Air and AirPods Pro, all of that. So it was a great opportunity to talk to Apple and to see how these products work very well together. So they've been doing these events for a while, but this was the first one here in Brazil.

Speaker 1:
[50:07] Cool. Did you see the MacBook Neo? Was that there or was it more high-end stuff?

Speaker 4:
[50:11] Yeah, I had the chance to try the MacBook Neo. It looks really nice, actually. I don't know why, but for some reason, I had an impression that the Neo would be thicker than I was expecting, but I was like, okay, it looks kind of similar to the MacBook Air, so it was nice to have this hands-on experience.

Speaker 1:
[50:33] Yeah, anything else? Like, do they have a little presentation or is it just a big, giant hands-on area?

Speaker 4:
[50:41] It was more like a big hands-on area, but we had some key areas, for example, we had a mini town where we could use the iPhone camera to try different modes like the zoom, the macro mode, so we can try all that.

Speaker 1:
[51:00] That's cool.

Speaker 4:
[51:00] They invited some dancers so we can try slow motion filming. That's cool. There was another section, the iPad Air section. There was a big projector so we could draw with Procreate and the Apple Pencil Pro and we will see our drawings at this projector. So yeah, it was more interactive than just a normal briefing with Apple just telling you, oh, this is the new iPhone. It has a 48-megapixel camera, et cetera, et cetera. That's the idea, show how everything works together. So like, oh, take this photo. Okay, now you can air drop to this device. That kind of stuff.

Speaker 1:
[51:38] That's neat. Cool. All right. Thank you, Filipe. Roman, this week in Apple history, which also kind of relates to what you were just talking about, Filipe, with the Apple Watch Series 5, but let's hand it over to Roman.

Speaker 3:
[51:56] So this week in Apple history, on April 24th, 2015, the original Apple Watch shipped. So it was announced the previous September, but it didn't start shipping. And coincidentally, this was Tim Cook's first, kind of first major product reveal under his watch. So, so yeah, that's kind of a nice tie-in.

Speaker 1:
[52:27] Yeah, it was a one more thing, the announcement, right? I don't remember, was it the iPhone 6?

Speaker 2:
[52:35] The previous fall.

Speaker 1:
[52:36] iPhone 6S, was it the iPhone 6 or 6S?

Speaker 4:
[52:38] Yeah, it was the 6.

Speaker 1:
[52:40] 6, yeah. And I remember him coming out on stage, like pumping his fist. What struck me at the time about the Apple Watch, and Filipe, maybe you can talk about this, was that there really weren't many rumors. We knew a watch was coming, but like we didn't know what it looked like. We didn't get like a render. We didn't get like, we didn't even know it was going to be square. Like we kind of had an idea, but maybe it was just the timing of it. But they kept that pretty under wraps.

Speaker 2:
[53:10] It was prior to its announcement, everybody was one calling it iWatch.

Speaker 1:
[53:16] Right.

Speaker 2:
[53:17] This was before calling everything an Apple watch.

Speaker 1:
[53:19] They kind of still do, but yeah.

Speaker 4:
[53:20] No one was expecting the Apple Watch brand.

Speaker 2:
[53:23] Yeah. And then all those sort of fake renders and stuff people had to put on their stores and stuff were all round because that's what competing smartwatch stuff was and that's what everybody expected. So it was a little bit of a shock.

Speaker 1:
[53:37] Yeah. Round or like wrapped around their wrist, like a band.

Speaker 2:
[53:40] Oh, there were all kinds of crazy projections and stuff. Bangle thing with a projector on it, just like some weird sci-fi stuff that could never happen. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[53:50] Yeah. Essentially what we knew at the time was that Apple was working on a smartwatch. That was it. We had no idea about the software, like the form factor. I think it's a very special case because usually Apple, when Apple announces a product, like the product, it's about to reach the stores a week later, for example, like a week or two. But with the first Apple Watch, they announced it in September and it only shipped in April next year. So there was this big gap between the announcement and the launch. And I think by announcing the Apple Watch months before the launch, they basically killed the leaks. Because, you know, leaks usually happen because when the product enters mass production, you can't control leaks anymore, because it's not Apple anymore, it's like Foxconn or anyone else working.

Speaker 2:
[54:43] The display manufacturer or something, the supply chain is where this all comes out.

Speaker 4:
[54:48] Yeah, but they weren't producing the Apple Watch before the announcement in September. So that's probably why they were able to control the leaks, because they had this big window. After that, they started producing the Apple Watch, we got more information, but at this point, we already knew the Apple Watch, the design, everything, so leaks weren't that important anymore. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[55:15] Do you guys, I'm assuming everyone here got the original Apple Watch?

Speaker 2:
[55:20] I don't think I did.

Speaker 1:
[55:22] I bought one. I wasn't working. I was at the Boston Herald newspaper, and I was freelancing, I think for you, Roman. But I bought one, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[55:32] Do you have one, Filipe?

Speaker 4:
[55:35] Not the original. My first one was Series 2, because I was excited with Apple Watch, but I was like, hmm, I should wait for the next generation, because when I saw the first reviews, I remembered people saying that the first watch was too slow. It depended heavily on the iPhone, so I was like, maybe with the next generation, so I waited for Series 2.

Speaker 2:
[55:58] Yeah, with me, it was Series 2, and then that also corresponded with a big change to Watch OS at the same time. It's where they kind of figured out what are people doing with this, and how should we make it work for the things people are actually doing with it. It all kind of came together around that time and became worth the money.

Speaker 3:
[56:20] Yeah, I have an original one, but it's just sitting in my drawer.

Speaker 1:
[56:25] Yeah, which is hilarious, because you hate watches.

Speaker 3:
[56:27] I hate watches, but I had to get it. I got it because I was like, well, somebody here at work has to get it, I guess. So, yeah, I didn't upgrade it until like the Series 4, and I still have the Series 4. But yeah, I never know what to do with it. I don't know. I feel like I should keep it as a collector's item, but I was like. Yeah. Yeah, anyways.

Speaker 2:
[56:50] At some point, it's not worth selling.

Speaker 3:
[56:54] Definitely not worth selling. Unless I keep it for like 50 years, and I'll be dead by then.

Speaker 1:
[57:00] You can buy like some artistic stand, like an iMac stand or something and put it in there.

Speaker 3:
[57:07] Yeah, so that's Apple history. Should I go ahead and just dive into comment quarter?

Speaker 1:
[57:12] Yeah, sure. This is also related to Filipe's story on the iPhone 18 Pro colors.

Speaker 3:
[57:19] Yeah, so we just have a couple of quick comments since we're getting to the end of the show. CryoX71 on YouTube said, this palette makes zero sense. How does light blue go together with dark cherry?

Speaker 1:
[57:35] Since when did they go together? He's right.

Speaker 2:
[57:37] Yeah, I was about to say, yeah, they're never really...

Speaker 1:
[57:42] The only one that ever like went together was the titanium ones. And even those were all over the spectrum, but they all kind of had that same hue.

Speaker 2:
[57:50] So the regular iPhones, though, do kind of have a palette. They'll always be the same soft pastels or something like that. They kind of have a thing, but the pros have always just been like, well, it's silver, black, and some color or whatever. They're never... So yeah, I don't think they're supposed to be a palette.

Speaker 1:
[58:07] It was orange, blue, and silver. Look at what the current one is.

Speaker 4:
[58:10] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:11] Lead opposite ends of the spectrum.

Speaker 4:
[58:13] And also, I understand why people think the colors don't make sense together, but you have to remember that the customer is probably going to buy one single color option.

Speaker 2:
[58:23] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[58:24] And then put a case on it anyway.

Speaker 4:
[58:25] So yeah, yeah. Most people use case anyway, so.

Speaker 3:
[58:29] Well, if anything, it's also indicative of, you know, Apple's changing the way they approach their palettes. You know, it started with the Cosmic Orange. So they have this one offshoot color that's like very different.

Speaker 2:
[58:43] So that did, that does remind me of a question. Filipe, are you a case guy or do you go no case?

Speaker 4:
[58:51] No case at all, but I have AppleCare Plus.

Speaker 1:
[58:55] Yeah, that's me. So I always say AppleCare is my case.

Speaker 2:
[58:58] Is your case, yeah. Fair enough.

Speaker 4:
[59:01] There's no going back.

Speaker 1:
[59:02] That's right.

Speaker 3:
[59:04] And our last comment is from Unexpected Walrus on TikTok. They wrote that dark cherry is never gonna be in stock. So apparently, they think that color is gonna be very popular.

Speaker 1:
[59:19] Yeah, I mean, the signature color always is harder to find. Cosmic Orange, there was... I remember Sierra Blue back in, I think it was the iPhone 12 was super popular. There was a purple one that was popular. Apple knows what they're doing. They highlight these colors in all their marketing. They make it look cool. Even the orange, like that orange color is not a color that most people would grab. It's very garish. But it was sold out for months. Well, sold out. It took you a week to get it, but whatever.

Speaker 4:
[59:55] This happens every year. The new color is always the best seller because most people, they like to show, oh, look how I have the new phone. So like, you buy the new color, people will know that you have the latest iPhone.

Speaker 1:
[60:09] And Apple has a knack for tapping into what's hot around the corner. Like they're not going to do what's popular now. They're going to do what's going to be popular. They know what they're doing. I want to know what Expected Beaver has to think about this stuff.

Speaker 3:
[60:28] Unexpected walrits. One thing I did notice kind of on the thought of the color is that when I watch YouTube videos, not tech YouTube videos, but just YouTube videos in general, and like they show the person with and the person, the YouTuber is like showing their phone, whether it's because they're shooting a selfie or whatever. And you notice that it's an orange, cosmic orange iPhone. You'll see in the comments, oh, so and so is Sport and the Pro. You know, the Pro, you know, so it does, it definitely is a status symbol of a particular color. So.

Speaker 2:
[61:10] I mean, you can see all the Android makers immediately copy it, who never would have made a bright orange phone. And then the second Apple does it, like we got a bright orange phone, like hurry up, get a bright orange phone.

Speaker 4:
[61:24] Yeah, yeah, it's fun because I saw this happening in real life after, right after the iPhone 17 launch. I was in Los Angeles for a Beats event in September, and it was incredible because everywhere I looked, I saw people with the orange iPhones. Even when people were using a case, you could still tell it was the new one because of the camera bump. So, okay, you have the new iPhone.

Speaker 1:
[61:48] Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3:
[61:50] And that does it for Comment Corner.

Speaker 1:
[61:53] All right, thank you, Roman. And thank you, Filipe. This was awesome. We'll definitely have you on again. And I look forward to more scoops and leaks and rumors and whatever else you got cooking over there in Brazil. But thank you. This was awesome.

Speaker 4:
[62:09] Thank you so much for having me. It was a real pleasure to be here today.

Speaker 1:
[62:13] Anytime. And that does it for this episode of the Macworld Podcast, episode number 980. Thank you, Jason.

Speaker 2:
[62:24] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[62:25] Thank you, Roman. Thank you, sir. And of course, thank you, Filipe, for joining us today.

Speaker 4:
[62:32] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[62:32] You can subscribe to the Macworld Podcast and the Podcast app on Spotify, YouTube, and the Macworld Podcast channel, or through any other podcast app. If you have comments or questions, you can contact us through Blue Sky, Facebook, or Thread. If you're a Macworld fan, look for the BlueMask logo. And leave a comment for us. Send a comment to podcasts.macworld.com. Send a comment to one of us. You know, just get in touch with us with your thoughts. And we'll talk about it on a future show. And next week, you can join us where we will talk about Tim Cook and John Turnis and what all of that means. See you next time.