transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:06] I'm very happy to be here in Nashville. And I'm, okay, a little fly. It was a journey to be here, but to be sitting in front of this person makes me so, I feel grounded, and I feel very happy and deeply ready to listen and talk with Noah Kahan. Say hello, beautiful human.

Speaker 2:
[00:23] Hey, Zach, everybody, followers, watchers, people that have seen me through their algorithm or some kind of marketing thing, thank you for having me. It's great to see you. Always love having a conversation with you, man. It's good to see you and you look well and happy. And it's nice to have you in Nashville and out of LA.

Speaker 1:
[00:40] OK, by the way, we've been talking now for many, many years. This is the third appearance. And you did bring up that you can gradually see this Noah Kahan evolve.

Speaker 2:
[00:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[00:52] Through the three of them.

Speaker 2:
[00:53] It's like, yeah, it's like watching your future self where you're like, oh, why am I wearing that? You're like, no, come back to Earth. I remember when we first started, I had like a flannel, very like humble outfit. And now I have like pants with like ponies on them and this like incredibly expensive, but like somehow bad looking cardigan. You know, you're getting like, you know, you're getting out of touch when you start wearing clothes that look like they're dirty, but that's like, they cost more for that reason.

Speaker 1:
[01:16] When you're spending $700 on a pair of shoes, that look distressed.

Speaker 2:
[01:21] I can distress them myself. But yeah, I've always been thankful for you giving me a platform on your show, because obviously like when we first did it, you know, there wasn't so much going on for me. So I always remember the folks that like wanted to talk to me before. It was like, you know, the Stick Season thing happened. So thank you for for always being a ride or die man.

Speaker 1:
[01:38] Dude. OK, here's the deal. I'm saying you got to understand something. You have been one of the most incredible writers that I've ever heard since before you came on our show. And two things are the reason you are successful, in my opinion. You were born to do this and consistency. You have never stopped. You have kept going. You have. Am I crazy in that?

Speaker 2:
[02:00] No, I have always just... The things I can control are writing and making music. And that's always made me happy. There's lots of fluctuations in what I care about when it comes to my career. But making music has always been... Like you said, for me, it's the point of my life. And so that's really, I think, carried me far, just wanting to make music and trying to get better at it. And it's this thing that never ends. And I love chasing my tail around.

Speaker 1:
[02:25] When we spoke the first time, I believe you had written 200 songs.

Speaker 2:
[02:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:29] Right? Like you at this point, to get to where we're at today, which is the Great Divide, in my opinion, is... Bro, it's an exceptional body of work.

Speaker 2:
[02:39] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[02:40] That is born, from my opinion, out of anxiety, stress, a retrospective look at how one becomes who they are today.

Speaker 2:
[02:51] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:52] Quite literally, a postmortem and a mortem on everything in your life.

Speaker 2:
[02:56] Yeah, there was a lot of looking in, I feel like, on this record. Stick Season, for sure, created this template for me to make music that allows me to find out stuff about myself and understand my childhood, my friendships, my family. I feel like my first two records I loved, but I never felt like I was able to completely achieve what I wanted to with songwriting. The Great Divide for me is I'm so proud of, because not only did it come out of a time of lots of pressure and expectation, but also I felt like I was fully able to say the things I wanted to say in the songs, and I never listened back being like, man, I wish I could have gone deeper. I feel like I said everything I wanted to say in this album.

Speaker 1:
[03:33] Do you listen to the last album and believe that you could have gone deeper and said more?

Speaker 2:
[03:38] Yeah, I do. I played the songs for so long, and when I was on tour for the third year of Stick Season or whatever it was, your relationship with the songs just changed. I was like, at that point, I was getting the joy from watching other people sing them and people hear them for the first time, but I just played them so many times that I no longer felt super connected, and I just wanted to feel connected to music again, and this album is definitely bringing me that connection.

Speaker 1:
[04:02] What is your, one, how do you know that you're connected to music again?

Speaker 2:
[04:06] It's just like a feeling. It's just like in a conversation when you can tell it's a kind of forest, or I'm talking to you, or it's like I'm genuinely excited to talk to you, and when I'm making music, I can tell when things are not feeling right, and I'm really pretty good at just making a song because I can make a song, but a lot of times I'll make one and not really feel like I touched on anything important. So when I listened back to The Great Divide, I felt like I was, whether I liked it or not, getting emotional and having to confront those feelings again, and I feel like that's when music is real, when it forces you to confront those things that you might be scared of or might have a hard time talking about.

Speaker 1:
[04:41] Do you know that you're confronting something while you're writing? Do you get what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[04:47] No, I don't know. It's so weird. I feel like a lot of times I'll write a song and then I'll look at it and I'll be like, I didn't even know I was going through that until I've already written it. I've always been so much better at processing my feelings through music than through just being on my life and reflecting. So a lot of songs in this album, I would, a song like Deny, Deny, Deny, or American Cars, I didn't realize how important those themes were to me in my personal life until I'd written the actual song and I felt like, oh wow, this is something that's going on in my world right now.

Speaker 1:
[05:15] Can you explain to me that realization for American Cars in particular? Because, you know, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong because, dude, I've listened to the album so many times and I have 18 pages in it.

Speaker 2:
[05:26] No way, dude.

Speaker 1:
[05:27] The lyrics are really, it's, you exist in this world and we interview people all the time. We've done this for 18 years. Some people are very deserving of it and some people, it's like they get there and they get there, you know what I mean? And a lot of people don't. Very rarely do you meet people who are like truly, with every fiber of my being, like they're being born to do something and to carry a message that is so much bigger than you.

Speaker 2:
[05:50] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[05:51] You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[05:52] I appreciate it. It's hard for me to see it that way. You know, it's always, I try to always try to take that in and never try to let it affect, it's hard. I feel like part of my like process is like kind of feeling like I'm worthless sometimes, or like I have to get to this place of real loneliness and real like kind of like this sad reflection that I have a hard time taking in compliments and taking in like love from people because I am so used to this internal dialogue where I'm like, this isn't good enough or this isn't good enough. So it means a lot to you say that and I will try to take that in.

Speaker 1:
[06:21] But just know that people share that exact same feeling, right?

Speaker 2:
[06:24] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:25] And I do believe that that feeling, your inability to internalize it completely is why the music stays incredibly grounded.

Speaker 2:
[06:31] It's so annoying.

Speaker 1:
[06:32] The way it is. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[06:34] Totally. I think that's like the kind of the curse for me. That's always, I've always felt with music. Like what has brought me success is like these really lonely moments and like kind of talking about these hard feelings. And I still experienced that pain, but it's bringing me this like it's bringing me this momentum and the success. And it's hard for me to kind of know that the things that kind of make me sad or also make me successful. And sometimes I'm scared to be happy because I'm worried about like, if I'm happy and making music that makes me happy, is that no longer going to connect? And so that creates like, it's just a paranoia.

Speaker 1:
[07:04] But you've had this fear forever. You've been talking about this fear for years.

Speaker 2:
[07:07] I know, isn't that annoying? My therapist is like, dude, we've been talking about the same shit for like 10 years, figure it out.

Speaker 1:
[07:13] Maybe a part of the magic is never figuring it out, right?

Speaker 2:
[07:17] I think I'm okay with that. I think what brings me joy, like if I'm looking for happiness in sold out tours or financial gain or clout or whatever, like I feel like I'm looking in the wrong place because I really do find joy from the making of the music and watching the fans listen to it. Like I try to keep it real simple. My dad was always about keeping things super simple and he's just like, what do you love? I love making it. I love watching him sing it. The rest of the stuff is awesome and I'm grateful for it, but as long as I have those two things, that's all I'll ever need.

Speaker 1:
[07:46] Do you mentally feel better while making it or from making it?

Speaker 2:
[07:49] I do. Yes, it was a hugely cathartic experience because I had been so stressed and so lost and literally was thinking about quitting and going to work at my golf course as a divot repair person, a divot filler. And so to be here now and to be proud of the music and to feel like it's...

Speaker 1:
[08:06] Because I know that's real. I know you've seen it.

Speaker 2:
[08:08] It's genuinely real. Yeah. I was genuinely, you could. I was really, I thought it would have been a nice life. I was like, I can go out there in the morning, I'll wake up at seven, I'll fill in the divots that the golfers made and then maybe they'll let me play in the afternoon. But I was at that point where I just don't know if this is something I love anymore and I can't fake it at all. I could never make an album that was just me making it to put out another album. Now, having finished it and being so proud of the songs, I feel like continued joy from knowing I got through that experience.

Speaker 1:
[08:37] One of the lyrics that stood out to me is, I was working on a plan to completely disappear, or to disappear completely, I'm sorry. Does that start American Cars?

Speaker 2:
[08:44] Yeah, that starts American Cars. It's a bit of a shout out to that Radiohead record, How to Disappear Completely, but also just how do I escape from my life? And I think the next line is gaslighting my friends into thinking I was busy, which is like a lot of people assume that I'm like all over the place. Like you must be so exhausted. I'm like, I don't know. I spent all day watching LeBron highlights on YouTube. So I don't have that much going on, but yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:12] It's that illusion that keeps us mentally stable for a little bit.

Speaker 2:
[09:15] Yeah, I think it does. I think I'm very into the idea of like escape and I kind of go like Hannah Montana mode, man. Like when I'm doing this kind of stuff or I'm on tour, like I feel like I'm one thing. And then when I go home, I just kind of try to become this quieter person, this quieter like life. And when I'm in each one, I feel like I miss the other. Like grass is always greener for me. Like when I'm quiet at home, I feel like I'm missing out in the music industry. When I'm in the music industry, I feel like I'm missing out on being human in life.

Speaker 1:
[09:43] And yeah, you need both for each other. And where does like making music actually fall in? Is it in the middle somewhere?

Speaker 2:
[09:49] Making music is closer to like when I'm really making music like that I love, it's on the human side. Like I wouldn't care if anyone ever heard it because it's like helping me as a person and making me feel satisfied. And those are the songs that I think people need to hear the most. But the joy, like the love for music comes from that quieter side where I'm like really reflecting and finding out who I am. And that was the problem with the Stick Season tour is like I just didn't have to reflect for three years because I was just being kind of paraded around the world, playing a song that everyone would sing at the end of the night. And I always knew at the end of the night, I would have 20 to 30,000 people screaming my names. I never had to be like, who am I and what do I want? Do I love this or do I love music? And those thoughts came after it all ended and it was really, really hard. That was the start of the album, The Great Divide writing process where I was like, fuck, I haven't looked at myself in the mirror in three years.

Speaker 1:
[10:36] And by the way, like that's where the documentary really kind of ends essentially.

Speaker 2:
[10:39] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[10:41] I gotta say like, dude, it's an amazing, amazing, you have a fantastic album and you have an amazing documentary.

Speaker 2:
[10:50] Thank you, man.

Speaker 1:
[10:51] It's. Brother, it's so deeply honest. It's really special.

Speaker 2:
[10:58] Thank you. It was an amazing process.

Speaker 1:
[11:01] Was it hard?

Speaker 2:
[11:02] It was hard, but it was also really therapeutic. I felt like I was able to kind of compartmentalize the idea that it would ever be out. And so in that process, I was just like, this is important. I'm talking about things that I might not have ever talked about. I'm sitting with my dad and my mom and my mom's being asked, like, how do you feel about what Noah's done with his music as it relates to your marriage? Those are questions I never would have asked my mom in conversations with my dad that I probably just would have never had. So it kind of forced me and my family into this reflection that I think has really healed us in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1:
[11:34] It comes through on this album.

Speaker 2:
[11:35] Yeah, and it comes through. When we were making the documentary or the album, we were watching this documentary. I'm like, oh my God, this documentary speaks to all these things we're writing about. And we didn't know when it was gonna be put out. And we didn't know when the album was gonna be out because I was writing it for so long. But we realized it was gonna be a really great vehicle to help tell the story of the album as well, which was really cool.

Speaker 1:
[11:53] Let's talk about Porcelain because I think that song in particular, you write it from your mom's point of view. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[12:00] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[12:00] Is any of that brought on based on the conversations you're having or the things you learn about your parents and through this documentary process?

Speaker 2:
[12:08] I feel like it was in a weird way, like almost an apology for a feeling that she'd, I don't think she had, I remember talking to her about the song and she was like, I don't feel this way about you. And it's really these insecurities I have what people in my life might be feeling about me. Like, in my head, I was just drifting in and out like a ghost of people's lives and every time I would come home, it would be a big documentary crew around me to film Noah coming home. Or, you know, every time I would be back in Vermont, I was to play a show and I felt like I had kind of disrupted this place and these people's lives and my family's lives for the sake of my own career moving forward. And I always worried that people around me were seeing me differently because of that or wondering if I was still me or if I had just been using them. And these are all insecurities. My mom was like, I never felt that way, by the way, but it was like a projection of how I might have felt. In the documentary, it was like the most honest conversation my family and I have ever had was sitting around and watching that documentary, just being like, this is what we look like. And, you know, there are hard things in our lives, like our relationship with our father, his injury, our parents' divorce, my, you know, experience with burnout and depression and body dysmorphia, but like, we all got to see it. And it felt like we didn't have to have a big intervention. We just got to watch the documentary. And like, we feel like now we're all closer for it.

Speaker 1:
[13:24] That's beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[13:25] It was beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[13:26] That's like, do you feel like your music kind of played a similar role leading up to that, right? This idea that like, it was this communication vehicle to talk about things that were hard to like have one on one confrontations about?

Speaker 2:
[13:40] Yeah, definitely. It was definitely a bit of like hiding behind the lyrics for a while. With Stick Season, I was writing these feelings down as these events in my life were happening. And I was never really like, mom, here's a song about your divorce. I was kind of like, I'm just going to post this on TikTok. And then, you know, suddenly like a song, like All My Love has like hundreds of millions of streams. My mom's like, couldn't you just fucking come and ask me about it instead of having to make a ballot about my marriage? And so in that process, I didn't feel like I gave them the grace of understanding how I felt before they heard the music. I think this documentary was great. And this album was really important because we had those conversations before I made the music or I told them, hey, this song's about you and here's why. My mom and I would sit down and we talked about the documentary and how it made us feel. And these important hard conversations were able to happen because of the experience that was so different with Stick Season.

Speaker 1:
[14:27] I gotta say, there's a lot of bravery in what you... The conversation you do have about your dad's injury, a traumatic brain injury is not discussed enough. And by the way, it happens to a lot of people. My sister has one.

Speaker 2:
[14:40] Oh no, I'm sorry. I had one.

Speaker 1:
[14:41] And it does...

Speaker 2:
[14:43] They're complicated.

Speaker 1:
[14:44] Deeply complicated and the impacts are lasting.

Speaker 2:
[14:48] Yeah, they're typically lasting and sometimes degenerative as well. So what's hard is things change even more as people get older. The injury and the accident is almost like not the hardest part. It's the after. It's the watching things change and watching the person develop new habits and personality traits that weren't there before. And it gets so far away from the incident that you're like, why the hell are you acting like this? And you kind of forget that it's all stemmed from this one thing. And it can be really frustrating, it can be really tiring and exhausting, but it's also, you know, it's really important to kind of remind yourself that this person can't control what they're going through. It's like, and you're right, like not a lot of people talk about it because it's complicated and kind of nebulous thing, you know, like very broad strokes term, even traumatic brain injury. It's like, what does that mean? You know, and it's been helpful to kind of learn more about it and talk to other people who have been through it. To understand how my dad's been affected by it.

Speaker 1:
[15:41] I had never in all my time ever heard anybody, anybody, anybody ever use the platform to speak about it. I have never even spoken about it because to the point it is like, it's just, it's just vague thing. It's also like a deeply personal thing. It's also like a deeply traumatic thing for every, my entire family. Do you even like, there's, it was, it was, it's a deeply, there's so many layers to it.

Speaker 2:
[16:03] And typically like you think, man, I'm feeling guilty because I should just be happy that they're alive, that they're here. And so you put this guilt in yourself of like, how can I be mad when they could have died or they could have stayed in that coma, or I could have never seen them again. But it's, it's that same thing that the documentary kind of goes into where these problems are still valid and genuine. And, and just because someone's still here, doesn't mean it's not hard and that they're not, it's not hard to have that relationship with them. It's not hard to watch them go through this thing. And I thought it was important to talk about because it's really at the backbone of so many of my, so much of my family history. And, and a lot of, of when I write about my dad, like a lot of our disagreements or our struggles, a lot of that comes from the communication that's been disrupted by this thing he's gone through.

Speaker 1:
[16:43] Understanding the why.

Speaker 2:
[16:44] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[16:45] Gives you new perspective, even if it doesn't necessarily immediately give you, give you patience.

Speaker 2:
[16:49] Right.

Speaker 1:
[16:50] It gives you perspective that's meaningful.

Speaker 2:
[16:52] Totally. I watched, I watched in the documentary, I was in my head, I was like, man, I feel like I was such a dick to my dad in this documentary and like that I looked bad. And I remember watching it back at the premiere at South Byte. I was like, oh, there's a scene where I'm like crying. I feel so bad for how impatient I was with my dad. And so I remember being like, this is a really real look at that kind of the bipolarity of your feelings, where you're feeling guilty for being mad and then you're feeling mad. And like those two things can exist at the same time. 100%.

Speaker 1:
[17:18] There's also a moment in the documentary where you're raking and you're like, dude, it's like, it's beautiful because I have this with my mom. It's like, you fight with your parents because you are your parents.

Speaker 2:
[17:30] Yeah, totally, I know.

Speaker 1:
[17:31] And I needed to, my mom has been staying with me in LA and I left to come here. And like, she went to see Bruce last night. It was the whole thing. But like, we've obviously been arguing, you know, because it's just like what happens. And then I'm watching the documentary and you bring that up and I'm like, fuck, man, that's it. Yeah, that is it.

Speaker 2:
[17:51] So like to the so the similarity like creates this tension, you know, explain it in relation to magnets and like it really is just like, yeah, it's so funny. Like the older I get, the more I'm like my dad and also the older I get, the more I am amazed by my parents for like a putting up with me, but also survival, survival, the way that they're able to the opportunities they were able to offer me and knowing now like what it's like to be an adult in the world like that shit's hard.

Speaker 1:
[18:19] Yeah, fuck yeah. And also your mom brings up like another thing that allowed me to like think about things from a new lens was like everything your family's been through, right? Everything from injury to financial ruin to quite literally win. But our generation, our parents, dude, that is a shared experience.

Speaker 2:
[18:37] 100% financial ruin.

Speaker 1:
[18:39] You heard of 2008, dude.

Speaker 2:
[18:41] That was like, that's what I mean. I always forget like most, most millennials like have been through some of the most insane financial ruin or financial disruption. Watch their parents, watch their parents go through it. And, you know, and of course, some people weren't lucky enough to have money to lose, you know, but it was one of those things where like it was a kind of a world shifting thing. And I remember that was another point. And like my childhood where like I started to see what life really looks like and how dark it can get. And yeah, my mom is my mom is brilliant at speaking about it in a way, in a way that I try to as well where these problems are real and you're not like throwing them aside, but you can also have a little humor with it. Like the way my mom says financial ruin, I just think it's so funny.

Speaker 1:
[19:23] But it's also real.

Speaker 2:
[19:24] It's real. Oh yeah. It was real. I had the receipt to prove it.

Speaker 1:
[19:29] You are this beautiful hybrid of both your parents.

Speaker 2:
[19:32] I am. It's cool. I am. Yeah. It's funny. I have my dad's Jewish guilt, my mom's Catholic guilt. So I'm just like fully anxious all the time. And I have stomach issues.

Speaker 1:
[19:42] IBS or what's that?

Speaker 2:
[19:44] Acid reflux and probably IBS. But the amount I'm shitting either there cannot there has to be something happening. I don't know what it is, dude.

Speaker 1:
[19:54] It's not natural.

Speaker 2:
[19:55] No, no, no, no, no, no. This coffee, you'll see the change in my skin color. You get pale. Start sweating deeply. I'm already sweating.

Speaker 1:
[20:04] Are you sweating?

Speaker 2:
[20:05] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:05] Is it like, you know, I have no control here, to be honest.

Speaker 2:
[20:09] We need to get you more control.

Speaker 1:
[20:10] I like it was my studio. I'd control the air. I'd, you know, like here, I don't. Well, there could be no air conditioning in this place.

Speaker 2:
[20:17] I don't know if there is. It doesn't seem like it. I think these giant fucking burning hot lights that you got up here, you can see every pore of my skin.

Speaker 1:
[20:25] You look great. You really do. But end of August, we talk about the texture because the texture is also very East Coast.

Speaker 2:
[20:31] Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[20:31] It is. That's real, right? So it's just like it's the sound of night. So it's everything from bugs to birds to animals. It's night. Like I can't.

Speaker 2:
[20:42] I had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun making this album sound like, sound like Vermont. I think like the crickets and that like that. It's like you said, like that late August humid day, like end of the evening, like dusk. And like you can kind of hear the evening coming on. And you can also see, like in those months, the change started to happen. And the song is really about like waiting until this place is ours again, until the tourists leave, until the weather gets bad. Like finally we can feel like we exist here.

Speaker 1:
[21:10] Are Reggie and Austin, are they the tourists?

Speaker 2:
[21:12] Reggie and Austin are my brother and my buddy from back home. So it's like, so much of my childhood was spent because there's nothing to do, just driving around in cars and like being like, man, we're going to go to New York City, or oh man, we're going to like throw a party, or we're going to go like do some like, you know, just hooligan shit and never ever ending having the courage to do any of it. You know, that kind of childhood arrogance of like, we own this place. And I wanted to speak to that because that was a very real experience for me growing up.

Speaker 1:
[21:39] Talking about the things we'll never do.

Speaker 2:
[21:40] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[21:42] I got like, where does this start though? A record like end of August. Does it start purely from reflective? Does it start with you recording nighttime? Does it start with the horns? Cause the horns are fucking awesome.

Speaker 2:
[21:55] The horns came later. We, it started with just me and the piano. And I really wanted to, I had been listening to like a ton of Ethel Cain and I had been really into like kind of, you know, obviously this isn't like, not to say I reached like Ethel Cain levels with the song or anything, but I was trying to kind of find that like droney beauty where you're like just in this space. And I wanted to recreate this feeling of being in that late August, just kind of nothingness where it's like kind of like the middle of, end of summer where there's nothing to do after, there's nothing to do before. And you're just kind of in this feeling and playing the piano and just having like the little drone over it. And then it's that feeling of like, you know, that build starts to happen. And then the song kind of explodes into something new. So it started out from that very small, like smaller reflective place.

Speaker 1:
[22:35] Do you know it needs a build? Or like, do the lyrics tell you? Like, can you explain that?

Speaker 2:
[22:40] Yeah, I just, I always wanted to have horns in this record. And I knew that if we had to get, if we had to make, if we could do horns, we would have to get there somehow. And I was like, you can't just put horns over me going, I try getting sober. So we, yeah, we started building it up and it became just almost like chanty, like kind of not just similar to Northern Attitude, where it just really builds into this moment. And then the horns just felt like, you know, an ode to like Springsteen and We're On Drugs and Sam Fender, who also speaks so much about the places they're from.

Speaker 1:
[23:06] So is that the song where like at the end you are like kind of, it's like kind of like a chanty lyric? Yeah, I was wondering what you were saying.

Speaker 2:
[23:14] No one knows what that means.

Speaker 1:
[23:15] Yes, what is it?

Speaker 2:
[23:16] Literally the producers making the song don't know what I said. It's the zip code for Strafford, 05072. And a crazy story about that. This is a total aside, but in the my song Howling on my, I think on my second record, I was, I am. I sang Deep Blue, Deep Blue, 05072. Because deep blue is the color I see in winter, like deep grays and blues. And we looked up what 05072 correlated to, on like one of those color palette things. And it was actually deep blue, which is crazy. So now I like to sing the zip codes that reminds you of that feeling of that color.

Speaker 1:
[23:47] Whoa.

Speaker 2:
[23:48] Yeah. There's lots of serendipitous stuff with this album. Like we went to go record it. You know, I wanted to call it The Last of the Bugs at first. And for me, Ladybugs are an omen. Like I got Ladybugs when I got a record deal. I see Ladybugs when all these things happen in my life. And we get to the studio and the porch is just completely covered in Ladybugs. Like stuff like that. Or my buddy brought his dirt bike to go rip around the studio and the dirt bikes number plate was 802, which is the Vermont zip code, Vermont state area code. So like all these weird things that were happening, we kind of just chased these little like karmic moments around to make this album.

Speaker 1:
[24:23] It is the universe. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[24:24] Like I believe in it.

Speaker 1:
[24:25] Even if you look like, let's just look macro at your success for a second.

Speaker 2:
[24:29] OK.

Speaker 1:
[24:29] Why do you think you have been successful?

Speaker 2:
[24:32] Oh, God, that's like the question that I never know how to answer. And I'm afraid of the answer. I don't know. I think I've all I in my opinion. I think it's my fans like the fans have connected to the music so much. And I've like, I don't know. They've for me, the fans have done everything for me. They've created that community and they supported me and they've attached themselves to the music.

Speaker 1:
[24:51] Does the universe have any part in it? Did manifesting have any part in it?

Speaker 2:
[24:55] Absolutely. When I was in seventh grade, we wrote letters to ourselves to open up when we graduated high school and it said, you will have a record deal by 2015. And I had a record deal in 2015. I got signed. My third meeting I did. I, everything has just fallen into place. I really do feel like, I feel like I'm living in a dream. You know, like I pinched myself because this is like exactly what I wanted for my life. Um, and it's unbelievable that it's happened. So I do think there's a level of fate and like manifestation and intentionality that came to, came to me in my career. And I'm very grateful for it.

Speaker 1:
[25:28] I was going to say like, and I never do this ever in a million years, but your record label, they really, they could be one of the last labels. And maybe that is of the last era that really believed in what is known as A&R, which is giving an artist time and space, right? To do their thing.

Speaker 2:
[25:46] Totally, man.

Speaker 1:
[25:47] Well, will we ever see an era in which that happens?

Speaker 2:
[25:49] Oh, I hope so, because I had such a lovely, like I got signed. I found my manager. I've been with my manager and my label my entire career. And it was like the first album. You know, obviously, I wasn't like a priority at the label when I first started. They were just like, this guy kind of looks like hosier. Like, send him out, send him out there.

Speaker 1:
[26:07] Even though Tough, by the way, is a great song. You should listen to it with Quinn 92.

Speaker 2:
[26:10] Oh, that's right. Yeah, that is a great song. I love that song. I love Quinn. But yeah, I was lucky to have that really authentic, what I thought of the music industry experience. We find a manager, you work with him to get bigger and you build and you build. And it's people talk to me all the time about like, what should I do about my manager? Like, what should I do about my label? I'm like, fuck, I wish I could tell you. I've had nothing but positive experience with the people at my label who have believed in me. And like seeing them, like my publicists and Maatje and Avery, the people that like have taken chances on me time and time again, like to see these moments happening where we're kind of like hitting our stride. Like everyone's proud of each other. It's like a family vibe for real. It's amazing.

Speaker 1:
[26:46] Because it does take a team effort to a certain degree, doesn't it?

Speaker 2:
[26:50] Well, I'm not a great like self-marketer. I never really was great on socials. And I'm basically just like talk about my pooping and then like tweet out like stuff about being sad. And my labels found ways to like allow me to be me, but also to kind of in a way like market that and to enhance like the visibility on me in ways that I can never do. They've also trusted me like with Stick Season and with this last record. I remember saying to Monty and Avery after Stick Season, I said like, I'm just gonna need some time. And I remember telling my manager, I just gonna need some time. And they all gave me time. They didn't say, hey, we need you to work with this person or hey, we need to sound like this or hey, we need this record by 25. Like they gave me that space. And I know that's a very rare thing in the music industry now to have that kind of time and that kind of patience from people that, you know, have a lot going on. So I was grateful for them.

Speaker 1:
[27:39] I mean, today to be signed, it's like if you're not like already streaming a million streams a week or showing crazy data, you know, you're not even popping up.

Speaker 2:
[27:49] Yeah. They don't start the fire. They just put gasoline on it. You know, like, it's always important to like, I think if I could go back, I would have found out a bit more of who I was as an artist before I signed. I didn't have that. I had no one in the music industry that I ever knew. So I just kind of jumped at the first opportunity I could get. But the first two albums, I could kind of hear myself searching when I listened back. And like, there's definitely parts of me in there, but I wish I could have started with like Cape Elizabeth because that's the music that I've always wanted to make. And I could have just had that be the beginning of my story because I'm like, so I will say, I'm more proud of the last three albums I've made than the first two.

Speaker 1:
[28:23] Do you feel like you needed those first two to get here?

Speaker 2:
[28:25] Absolutely. And I love some of the songs on them. And the tours I did for them were super fun, but you're right. I needed to have those experiences of, of not just making music that was more poppy and more immediate, but also like doing music in the way that I now don't want to do it in, which is like doing shotgun co-write sessions all around Nashville, LA, and kind of like feel like I'm auditioning for different writers, or like trying to network my way into music. I kind of just said, fuck it, and made the music I wanted, and that's what's worked so well. And that's a really special thing for me.

Speaker 1:
[28:52] And so much of like to be able to reach a flow stage or to be able to do any of this is because of the dozens of thousands of hours you've logged at this. Right? Far more than 10,000 hours, dude.

Speaker 2:
[29:05] I've been grinding since I was nine years old for real, like every day a song. One thing I can control, and I hate, I'm, you know, I'm an anxious person, I like controlling things that I can control. And one thing I can control is my, is my songwriting. And so I've never like let that part of me slip away because that's the most important thing I have is my ability to make music and write songs myself. And Ed Sheeran, guys like Ed Sheeran, who've always been like, I can do this myself. You know, that's the people I've looked up to the most. I don't want to have to rely on others to make music. It's nice to have community, but I want to make sure that if I'm sitting in my house or in a hotel room or in a restaurant bathroom, that I could sit down and write a song without needing, you know, other people around me.

Speaker 1:
[29:47] How do you balance that with also evolving what you do and adding people to the room or do you not?

Speaker 2:
[29:52] I do. I think I was really lonely after Stick Season ended and Stick Season was such an insular creative process for me where I made everything pretty much just by myself. And I think at that time I wasn't as lonely. And so when Stick Season ended, I was, I knew I could make music by myself, but I just didn't want to be alone anymore. And so my Gabe Simon, the producer who I started out with an Aaron Desner, we just started bringing in like band members and different players. And, you know, my wife wrote in a song, like just bringing in community and like, and allowing knowing that maybe I don't need a million people to help me, but like having them there and their contributions ended up being such big parts of the music. It kind of made me realize how important community is as well.

Speaker 1:
[30:34] It's safe and familiar energy.

Speaker 2:
[30:35] Totally. It's just like a little team around you of like people supporting you through it. And then, you know, a lot of times I get real stubborn, like I need to control and I need to do everything. And just giving up that control and saying, hey, Dylan, who plays keys, like put down a keys line and maybe we'll write something off it. Or Gabe, like play me something you've been working on. And Aaron Desner, like famously makes amazing loops, like letting other people into the process, I feel like made this album a bit more adventurous and a lot of fun to make.

Speaker 1:
[31:01] So what song did your wife write on?

Speaker 2:
[31:03] American Cars.

Speaker 1:
[31:04] Me? What lyrics are her?

Speaker 2:
[31:06] She did, she did, You Got to Stay For Mom in The Bridge, which I think is a great line and like very, very true. So that was fun. She gets co-writing credit on that. She was pumped up about it.

Speaker 1:
[31:17] Do you feel like you're a better artist because you have safe love, the right love around you?

Speaker 2:
[31:25] Yeah, I think I'm a better artist. Yeah, the people have around me like all I think truly love me. And I don't interact with anybody in my life that I feel like is there for the wrong reasons. I haven't met a lot of people in the music industry that I felt like have wanted something from me for the wrong reasons. But I am kind of guarded, I think, when it comes to like friendships and like I'm just very close with my circle of people and I keep it really tight and I feel supported by them. I feel grounded by them. I had a lot of experiences in the Stick Season tour where I feel like I would make friends that I now don't talk to. And I don't think it's because of like people being fake. But I think it's because when you get into those moments in those rooms, those social like networking things that come from like doing big events, you start to meet people only at those things. And you know, I'm sure you experience it too. We're like, we're friends when I see you. And like, that's hard for me because I like really lean on my friendships a lot. And so I have a hard time with people that I don't know if I'm going to be able to have that connection with.

Speaker 1:
[32:25] By the way, like that's such a human, real thing to say because it's true. Like in places like LA or really anywhere that is so deeply industry driven, they become surface level acquaintances that like you define as a friendship, but they're really not a friendship. And it's not something that is anything more than just a collection of like surface level.

Speaker 2:
[32:48] Big interactions.

Speaker 1:
[32:49] Yes, at different events.

Speaker 2:
[32:50] It is nobody's fault. It's just like it's set up for that because you're constantly surrounded by cameras or people, your different teams. And like I have like through the process of collaborating with other artists, like really made an attempt to like deeply connect with those people. And I think that everyone I've collaborated with, I've had like real honest conversations with. And it's a lot of it's on me. Like I don't like open myself up because I feel like if I'm vulnerable with somebody and they're, you know, we're just at this event and I'm only going to see them for five minutes, then I might never talk to them again. I'm like, that's my energy I just gave away and this feeling I just gave away. So I try really hard when I meet people in the music industry, like to kind of suss out if we can be real with each other or not.

Speaker 1:
[33:26] Preserve your energy and your emotional integrity and what you choose to share because ultimately like that's, it's a very valuable currency.

Speaker 2:
[33:35] Yeah, absolutely. That's what the documentary was so cool and it's kind of like I'm able to like show people the side of me without having to go and like do a million interviews where I discuss, you know, all these different things and it's real. You know, I don't have like a Rolodex of trauma that I like to dole out. I'm like, here it all is in the documentary. Watch the doc and you'll see how I really feel, you know?

Speaker 1:
[33:53] And then Desus.

Speaker 2:
[33:54] Yeah, and then Pisa.

Speaker 1:
[33:56] Hello, beautiful human. It makes me happy that this interview that you're watching, that you're taking part in, is made possible by one of my favorite stores, Ross. Come on, go to Ross. It's spring. And every spring, you want to refresh your closet, don't you? Ross has you covered without breaking the bank. You're not gonna stress and you're gonna get all the looks that you desire, all the designer pieces that you need, that you crave. And you're gonna do it. You're gonna do it and save in a serious manner. This is not a drill. This is real life. 20 to 60% off other retailers' prices. Only at Ross, my friends, I go whenever I'm craving a new, literally anything from a t-shirt to my no-shoe socks, to a new pair of pants, to new patio pillows. I just got new patio pillows. I've turned into a patio guy. I've been like trying to get the perfect patio and it's happening. It's slowly happening because of Ross. From my paddies to my closet, Ross has me covered. So try it out. And remember at Ross, you don't just shop, you work your magic. Find your nearest Ross at rossstores.com. I got to say, dude, the album, it's, let's talk doors. Hard to see me the closer you look. It's real shit.

Speaker 2:
[35:17] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:18] I thought more you zoom in, ultimately, I get such a narrow perspective of literally anything.

Speaker 2:
[35:24] Right.

Speaker 1:
[35:25] Is it meant to be that deep?

Speaker 2:
[35:26] Yeah, it is. Oh, absolutely. I think it's super deep. No, I think that line is really speaking to this feeling of presenting yourself similar to what we were just talking about in this surface level way where like it looks great at first glance and you look deeper and you're not sure that that person is real or that person is really being honest. And I feel like it's about being guarded and literally closing doors so that you could see through the people but you can't see the whole house, you know? And I think that line speaks to that kind of that that mirage that people will kind of try to present and that I try to present that allows people to glimpse but not the whole picture.

Speaker 1:
[35:59] Safety for safety sake, right?

Speaker 2:
[36:02] I think so. Vulnerability. Yeah, being vulnerable and not wanting to open yourself up to people. And I feel that way a lot. And it's funny because I think people talk about me being very open and being, you know, in my documentary, my music, and like, I still get terrified of it. I'm still scared of sharing things. I'm still afraid of people judging, you know, who I am. And those feelings don't go away, even if you are presenting that to the world. That's something I still hold within me.

Speaker 1:
[36:27] Is there anything you're no longer afraid of now that you have, I mean, the most experience under your belt?

Speaker 2:
[36:34] That's a good question. I'm no longer afraid of falling off or losing like, you know, I'm no longer afraid of taking steps that look like they're backwards in my career. Because I've done everything I've wanted to do, but also I've never found total joy from bigger. Like that's never brought me joys bigger and better. What brings me joy are those like moments in between. So I no longer like worry about followers or streams as much or like what it looks like in my career at other people. Like I just worry about how I feel. And and that's been really freeing, not thinking about having to kind of look like I'm succeeding all the time. Letting go of that has been really nice and allows me to be where I am. So when you're always projecting into the future, you really miss out on on everything. And you kind of see that in the documentary. Like there's a scene where my wife and I are on the couch and like about to headline a festival. My lovely wife is there, my dog's running around. And I'm just like dead eyed tunnel vision. Like, I don't know what I'm going to do next. I don't know what I'm going to do next. I'm like, look around you. Like you've already done it. You already won. So I no longer care as much about what comes next or what I'm going to do in the future. I'm just trying to be right here.

Speaker 1:
[37:46] What do you think fuels that?

Speaker 2:
[37:49] Fills the fear or fuels the presence?

Speaker 1:
[37:54] Yeah, like the fact that you can be present and not.

Speaker 2:
[37:58] Yeah, it's a work in progress. But I think what fuels that feeling is is just closing my eyes and picturing myself at 12 and thinking, would my 12 year old self be pumped about what I'm doing right now? And the answer is always yes. And I don't think my 12 year old self would be like, man, I can't believe you're only doing amphitheaters or I can't believe you're only streaming a million times like he would never feel that way. I can just be proud that I'm still in music and still making music that makes me happy. So trying to look back at my inner child and make him proud instead of trying to make this kind of new version of myself proud. It's hard once you get into this world, like where you start to do bigger and bigger things and you start to get some bigger looks, like to not want more and to not feel like the serotonin drop off when you're not constantly being praised or pushed to a new height. And I'm trying to fight back against that feeling because I think it's unhealthy and I think ultimately it doesn't serve me anymore.

Speaker 1:
[38:52] That's how awesome is that?

Speaker 2:
[38:55] It's awesome, dude. I mean, granted, I'm in a place of like, it's easy to say that right now, probably we're like, things are going pretty well. And, you know, I'm about to play a bunch of sold out shows. That's awesome. It's easy to say right now, but I'm testing myself every day to make sure I really believe that. And I stick to that because I want to be able to be present and be happy with what I have and not what I don't.

Speaker 1:
[39:15] That's dude.

Speaker 2:
[39:17] That sounded really smart of me, man.

Speaker 1:
[39:20] To be present and to listen, dude, and to just be in the moment is quite literally the hardest thing. And there's so many outside voices and outside everything that's pushing you to just focus on what's next as opposed to what is.

Speaker 2:
[39:32] Oh, it's so hard. How do you stay present?

Speaker 1:
[39:35] Honestly, dude, like I. I try to block as much out as humanly possible. I feel like I disconnect from a lot of relationships that are probably like maybe unhealthy relationships, but also some healthy ones, too. It's hard. Like I tried to blinder myself. Yeah, like that. That's it.

Speaker 2:
[39:53] But that's OK, though.

Speaker 1:
[39:54] But I'm also afraid and stressed and like anxious and like.

Speaker 2:
[39:57] Right.

Speaker 1:
[39:58] The show's been around for 18 years. So like there's a whole slew of things that just constantly hang over my head and on my shoulders. That like is chronic. And you got to park it to be able to do anything. And the only way to do this job properly and in a way that I feel fulfilled on all sides is to be present. Totally like the best person to do this is someone who knows how to listen.

Speaker 2:
[40:21] Absolutely. I think just from my view, you've maintained like your openness and your interest and your passion for what you do. So whatever you're doing, I hope you know it's been going great and that you're really fun to talk to and you're the man, bro.

Speaker 1:
[40:35] Thank you. Neutral. Real recognizes real though.

Speaker 2:
[40:37] Let's go.

Speaker 1:
[40:38] Can we talk about I mean, is downfall? Does that make sense as a transition?

Speaker 2:
[40:42] Sure. Kind of. Yeah. The thing I have to worry about my downfall.

Speaker 1:
[40:46] At all costs. But you do have a moment in the documentary where you talk about just peaking with your brother. And that's something I do think about. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:55] Right.

Speaker 1:
[40:55] And because the definition of peaking is constantly changing.

Speaker 2:
[40:59] Totally.

Speaker 1:
[40:59] Right. Like the goalpost is moving and it's either you're moving it or society is moving it or culture is moving it. Or everybody's moving it. It's chronic.

Speaker 2:
[41:09] Yeah. It's one of those things that only you can determine if you peaked or not. No one else can for you. Like, you know, I could put out an album that doesn't get listened to by anybody, but like a hundred people in Maine might be like, this is the greatest thing I've ever heard. You know, like that's not you haven't peaked. Maybe you're not connecting with as wide of an audience, but like what makes you happy is the peak. The peak should be like where you're feeling the most joy, not where you're finding the most success, you know?

Speaker 1:
[41:39] So call me when it goes to ship. I'll be keeping the house the way it was. I won't rub your face in it. I swear I won't tell anyone. I don't mind being your dead end. I think it's fine to never move on. Keep my ear up to the door frame and I'll keep rooting for your downfall. Who are you talking to?

Speaker 2:
[41:55] That song to me is a continuation of the song of the characters in New Perspective, where this person is kind of like selfishly, but also like earnestly hoping that this person doesn't find happiness anywhere else but where they're from. I think it's a weird convoluted act of love. This person loves this person so much that they hope that things don't work out on the West Coast or wherever they're going and they'll have to come back home and it's like very selfish, but I think we can all sometimes feel like, when your friends leave and you're like, man, I hope that it rains for a week when you get back to where you're coming from, like it's nice here and you look at photos and you can see it's nice here and you want to come home. It's that feeling of just wanting someone to not have it work out. I know that's selfish and toxic, but I think we all experienced that a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[42:46] Without a doubt, it is selfish and toxic, but it's rooted weirdly if you dig deep enough in a love and desire for this person.

Speaker 2:
[42:52] Yeah, it's all born out of the insecurity of like of loneliness. And it's I think it's it's a worse reflection on the narrator than than what the person is hoping happens to the recipient of the song paid time off.

Speaker 1:
[43:04] Fantastic.

Speaker 2:
[43:05] I love that one.

Speaker 1:
[43:06] I mean, we're all I mean, so much as society in the world is living, totally working for paid time off, literally just working for the weekend.

Speaker 2:
[43:13] And I love that song because. The idea is kind of fucked up with that this person is like sort of holding someone back and not letting them like experience the world, but the person loves them so much, they don't give a shit. It's like the opposite of downfall. It's like, yeah, there's more out there for me, but I just like getting high and playing golf with you.

Speaker 1:
[43:33] I'm choosing.

Speaker 2:
[43:34] Yeah, I'm true. Yeah, it's the agency of being like, I meet people in Vermont and New Hampshire all the time who are like, I love it here. I don't need to go to New York. I need to go to LA. I don't need to go travel the world. I love where I'm from. I feel the same way. If I could, I would just be at home going fly fishing, playing golf, playing songs and going on an open mic every night. That sounds like an amazing life. And I think that's what this song kind of speaks to of finding the joy and the beauty and what's right in front of you.

Speaker 1:
[44:00] That's the warfare in your head.

Speaker 2:
[44:01] Yeah, totally. Like, the scene starts, this person's at a fast food place that's hiring, and they're like, I might have to go work at this fast food place. And I know there's so much more out there for me, and there's so much more that I want to do. And I'm kind of fighting with this desire to leave, and then this person comes in, and it's like, oh, that's my world right there. That's what seeing the world is, is spending a day with that person. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:23] The humming in the song feels intentional.

Speaker 2:
[44:26] Yeah, there was that, a little fogerty song where there's like, there was a song where there's like two artists singing to each other, and I just like loved how like nonchalant it felt. And I wanted to give a little bit of like, I don't know, a little Paul Simon-y, hummies part of the song, it felt fun.

Speaker 1:
[44:44] What's this sidebar? John Fogarty's fucking awesome.

Speaker 2:
[44:46] Yeah, so good.

Speaker 1:
[44:47] He's incredible. He came on our show.

Speaker 2:
[44:50] Oh really?

Speaker 1:
[44:50] Yeah, it's like one of the, that's like one of the craziest ones ever, but he's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[44:55] Amazing.

Speaker 1:
[44:55] He's like one of the, I think really truly one of the most underrated, pop, rock, whatever you want to call it, songwriters of maybe all time. His songs are so deeply synced and ingrained into a culture in the media.

Speaker 2:
[45:09] You hear one, you're like, there's so many songs, you'll play like, oh, that was him, oh, that was him.

Speaker 1:
[45:13] And you're transported to a whole other world.

Speaker 2:
[45:15] Totally.

Speaker 1:
[45:16] It's really, it's magnificent. Let's talk about The Great Divide. This song starts off the whole era. Obviously, the album is called The Great Divide. Can you explain to me the divide between what, you and what, you and home?

Speaker 2:
[45:30] Me and everything.

Speaker 1:
[45:31] Past and present?

Speaker 2:
[45:31] Past and present, childhood friends, my family, Vermont, I felt very distant from Vermont and the things that made me who I am. The disconnect between who I was before and where I found myself. Like this, Stick Season was an amazing thing, but it was kind of like a river that just split my life in the two. And I had to, I never had to look at how much things had changed until it was kind of over. And everywhere I looked, I felt disconnected. I felt like there was a wall between me and everyone I talked to, or a wall between me and this place that I used to know. Even a wall between me and my passion for music. So I felt like I had nothing, you know? Like I didn't feel like I belonged in this new world I had stepped into, and I didn't feel like I no longer belonged in the place I came from. And it's a pretty lonely place to be, like stuck between two things like that. So I think The Great Divide, that song is definitely, the story is about a friendship where the person can't speak, speak up about what maybe might be bothering the other person, and can't reach out because of fear or guilt or laziness, whatever it is. But I think the larger idea of The Great Divide is disconnect between the people and things that make us who we are.

Speaker 1:
[46:42] Is that a story rooted in reality?

Speaker 2:
[46:45] It's rooted in the reality of many different friendships in my life. I've been both characters in that story. It's so much easier to just hope that everything's gonna be okay, and it's sometimes scary to ask somebody what's wrong, because if they tell you what's wrong, then you might have to confront that you're feeling that as well, and it's easier just to drive in silence and get to the next location, or smoke weed, or do whatever it is, go drink, or drive fast, or just do things that feel like they're filling that gap that really needs to be filled.

Speaker 1:
[47:19] Beautifully said, because by the way, the reality of not keeping relationships or having those hard conversations, and just continuing to keep going, there's a much larger impact in not choosing to engage in relationships and have the conversation and discourse over a simple question of, how are you?

Speaker 2:
[47:40] Totally, and especially when you see something that you know someone might be going through, it's like, it's so, I felt so cowardly not speaking up and saying, hey, let's have this hard conversation, because it would create tension, and you don't want tension, you want everything to be easy. And I think in our friendships, it feels, you just want everything to go smoothly and to go easy, and introducing a point of tension disrupts this piece that you might have found, and you don't live in reality when you don't ask the question.

Speaker 1:
[48:07] Or yeah, totally, don't ask the question, don't choose to confront something. Hey, you live in delusion, if you'll do something totally different.

Speaker 2:
[48:14] And you also, the person that you're not asking about, they feel even more alone in their feelings, they feel even less like they can talk about it, because no one asks them about it.

Speaker 1:
[48:23] And ultimately, you end up feeling more alone too.

Speaker 2:
[48:25] Yeah, and I think there's a hope at the end of the song, for sure, of the recognition of I wish I could have spoken up, I wish I could have said more. That speaks to this growth that the person has gone through. I think a lot in this record, I wanted to make sure that a lot of these songs had a message of hope somewhere in them, and that there was a lesson or at least something resolving in a lot of the songs. So that you're not...

Speaker 1:
[48:48] You're not going to stop as you learn the lesson and resolved it or...?

Speaker 2:
[48:51] Yeah, I think that's me understanding the perspective now of like, I want something different for my life and I want to practice what I preach and for myself wanting there to be hope in these harder things we go through.

Speaker 1:
[49:09] Real. Haircut.

Speaker 2:
[49:10] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:11] Great song. We love a banjo, dude. Great strings.

Speaker 2:
[49:15] Yeah. Nina, Nina and the Fiddle playing a lot of Fiddle on this record sounded great.

Speaker 1:
[49:18] Amazing. Where does this come from? I mean, it comes from a vivid story. Sleeping at my dad's place. I'm happy for your haircut.

Speaker 2:
[49:26] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:26] Glad you got your act clean, but you're showing up like bad news and leaving like a bad dream.

Speaker 2:
[49:32] Yeah. To me, it was like, they started selling my t-shirts merch in the local general store at my town. And people drive through Stratford and they stop by the signs. And friends that live there will be like, oh, four girls from Michigan that were just like in front of a street sign taking photos. And this is a place where nobody goes. Like you'll recognize, I know like every license plate in the area, like let alone the cars, you know? So I kind of felt this thing where I had taken this place that I love and that people live a very private, quiet life in and opened it up to the world. And I almost felt like whenever I was coming back home and I was like part of this commercialization of this place without the consent of the town, you know? And the song is kind of written from the perspective of someone in my family or someone from home being like, you know, like we might be here, we might be bored, we might be living at my dad's house or whatever it is, but like at least we're not completely full of shit like you are.

Speaker 1:
[50:29] So you used to written from somebody in Stratford talking to you?

Speaker 2:
[50:32] Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, like you grew your hair out long, now you think you're Jesus Christ. Like this feeling of this, there's a lot of ego in this song, like this reflection of this ego that I've built and this perception that I have that people are seeing that and judging me for leaving or for selling my t-shirts at the store. And Stratford has always been so good to me. So again, it's like, are they even really judging you? No, it's all the shit, dude. Almost everything in my life, I'm like, fuck man. And they're like, I wasn't thinking about that at all, dude. But that's another song, similar to Porchlight, where like people in Stratford have done nothing but support me and have been gracious and excited to have people around. But I always feel a little bit of guilt for exposing you know, my town to so many people.

Speaker 1:
[51:13] So crazy. I just have this vision of the 102 year old lady in your documentary. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[51:19] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:20] Yeah. Talking about you. And there's this guy who were who owns the general store selling.

Speaker 2:
[51:25] He's like, yeah, I don't even listen to his music. That was a fair part of the documentary when they're like, yeah, we don't really listen to it. There's this little girl who's like, I don't know. I don't know. Taylor Swift. Yeah. It's so funny how little they give a fuck in a way. It's great.

Speaker 1:
[51:38] It's so Strafford-Vermont.

Speaker 2:
[51:40] It's very Vermont. It's like, yeah, yeah. You know, we're not like changing our lives because some long haired kid decided to pick up an acoustic guitar, but we're happy for him.

Speaker 1:
[51:48] Dude, we spent 10 years on the radio in Burlington, Vermont, right? All over there. And I got to say, it is the most peaceful, loving, beautiful hug of a state and a city and a community. And I mean, you and Bernie Sanders and Vermont Teddy Bears and Ben and Jerry's are really the four greatest exports and people syrup and flannel.

Speaker 2:
[52:08] Cigarro Apex, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:09] Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2:
[52:11] Yeah, it's an amazing place, man. It's got its problems and there's so much, a big part of what we're doing with the Busy Head Project is trying to look at some of the wealth disparity and access disparity in Vermont, which is very present. A lot of, there's a lot of poverty and lots of unfortunate drug addiction issues and people that need support and particularly mental health support. So I always like when people talk about Vermont to make sure people are seeing the whole picture. And that's what I really loved about the documentary was, it didn't just show Vermont in the summer or people tapping trees, like it showed the cold, it showed how hard the life can be over there. And it's important as I've gained my platform to represent, not just the beauty of Vermont, but also the challenges of Vermont to make sure that people understand that there are real issues over there. And that with this charity that I have, like we are, our most exciting thing we're doing is trying to kind of introduce more access to the area and give back in that way. And that's kind of been like, as we talk about like commercializing where I'm from or like feeling like I've taken from this community, like the coolest thing is trying to give back to it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[53:17] Can you explain, so a couple of things, seasonal oppression is a very real thing. Oh yeah. And the winters are brutally cold and they're incredibly long.

Speaker 2:
[53:24] Two inches of snow last night back home.

Speaker 1:
[53:26] That's crazy. And by the way, it's April.

Speaker 2:
[53:28] Yeah. Yeah. Like it's the worst, dude. Like you'll get like a 60 degree day. It was like, fuck yeah. And then the next day it's a snowing. You're like, God damn it. And the mud and the dark. Oh, it's horrible.

Speaker 1:
[53:38] And by the way, like even in the summers, it's a hot heat. It's a wet heat. Yeah. The weather is very extreme. All the seasons are extreme, except for fall. Well, it's the beauty is extreme.

Speaker 2:
[53:49] Yeah. Yeah, totally. It's every season is extreme and you don't really know what you're going to get. You're right. Like you can get like a beautiful 70 degree day with a little breeze, or you can get like 99 degrees of humidity and like swamp ass and like without a doubt, like yeast infections starting because this sweaty ass box.

Speaker 1:
[54:07] I have horrendous memories of being in Burlington on the top of a fucking RV trying to hang like a banner just like in the middle of summer.

Speaker 2:
[54:14] Misery, horror, misery, literally so bad. And nobody really like nobody gets nobody really gets it. The winter, though, is tough. The winters are really, really hard. And I always like whenever I'm talking to my parents on the phone, I'm like, Nashville, it's 65 degrees and it's mid March. Like they're all like, fuck this weather sucks. And like, come on down, you know, and do they come? My dad's coming this weekend.

Speaker 1:
[54:38] That's it.

Speaker 2:
[54:39] Yeah. Oh, I'm so excited to see him with the dog food bags. He's bring. Oh, dude. Yeah. It's dog food bags. You should see he's gotten to the point where like, I think we could actually sell some of his clothing to like hipsters for like hundreds of dollars because, you know, it's so weird that it's cool.

Speaker 1:
[54:53] I got a Brooklyn hipster on my team who wanted me to ask about his t-shirts.

Speaker 2:
[54:57] Dude. Oh, they have fun. Try hard, be kind.

Speaker 1:
[55:00] She's obsessed.

Speaker 2:
[55:01] Website pending. We have to talk to our lawyer, but we're going to make something happen. Last time we were in Nashville, my dad and I went to Zanies to comedy club. And, you know, my dad, not just because of his injury, but he's always kind of been like this. He like he'll fall asleep anywhere. And we were in the front row of a DL Hewley show. And my dad was snoring in the front row and blessed. He'll he'll I could tell he kind of noticed it. But like I had to grab my dad's arm and we walked out of the end in front of everybody. And so I'm excited to see what shenanigans we get up to this weekend.

Speaker 1:
[55:31] That's amazing. Dashboard. This is this is you viewing yourself, right?

Speaker 2:
[55:37] Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[55:38] And I mean, you're harsh on yourself and mean.

Speaker 2:
[55:41] Yeah, mean to myself in this one. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[55:43] Look at you go crossing the state lines with your shadow trying to run away, change your zip code. Turns out that you're still an asshole.

Speaker 2:
[55:50] Yeah, you know, I think there's like weirdly under all that, like self-hatred in that song, like there's a really real message of like superficiality is like not real change, like buying a dog or moving to a new place or like starting a, I don't know, a van life thing where it's like, well, you still did all that shit and you still are that person. Like you need to make those real like lasting changes and like do real work on yourself instead of like presenting as a better person. And sometimes, especially when I was younger, I feel like I would be like, oh, I'm in therapy, so like I can't still be unkind or I'm in therapy, so I can't still have issues. Like these things that you say you do that aren't really being done. So I feel like that song speaks to that like superficial kind of thing.

Speaker 1:
[56:36] How do you know the difference between presenting as a good person and being a good person?

Speaker 2:
[56:41] I think you just are the things you do and not the things you say or show. I think you just do nice things and kind things for people and be a better person instead of saying you are or instead of like asking everyone to accept you as that. You can't decide how people view you. All you can decide are the things you do and the things you say. So like me or somebody being like, hey, well, I fostered a puppy and I go to therapy, like until I see you the change, like I don't believe that the change has happened, you know?

Speaker 1:
[57:15] It's true. And it's, by the way, walking the walk is definitely-

Speaker 2:
[57:20] Walking the walk, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[57:21] It's harder than talking the talk.

Speaker 2:
[57:22] It is harder and it happens quietly and like sometimes you don't get credit for it and that's not what it's about.

Speaker 1:
[57:26] It happens over time.

Speaker 2:
[57:27] Over time, I think people, everyone deserves time and everyone deserves to have grace given to people, grace given to them and changes can be made and you can change who you are. I think, but you should never tell someone I'm a good person, you know, you should show them.

Speaker 1:
[57:42] 23, it's a sad one. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[57:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[57:50] It's about addiction.

Speaker 2:
[57:51] It's about addiction. It's about, the chorus is stunning. Thank you so much. Yeah, I really liked that one was really fun to make. We tried to channel some Chris Stapleton vibes in that chorus, but we, yeah, I wanted to write a song about how addiction isn't just hard for the person going through it, but how it kind of creates this like narrative that the other people have to live within. The song is not about my family members, but it's about friends I have who have siblings and parents who really have lived through this and how complicated it is to have to explain things for somebody. But also the defensiveness, and I felt this with my siblings in my life, the defensiveness you feel over your siblings no matter what they've done. There's that line, no one gets to talk shit with the people that you shit on. It's like, you don't get to talk about it because he didn't do anything to you, it's us, and I'll protect him from your perspective because you have no idea what it's really like. But also the kind of the hypocrisy of people, I experienced this a lot with friends who were like, I would never get addicted to that or I would never have that problem. I'm like, well, you are addicted to different things in your own way. It's just not the same thing. These people are going through something hard like a disease, like a mental health problem, and to brush them off as addicts or junkies or whatever isn't fair. When you know someone is going through that, you know it's so much more layered and complex than just, oh, this person's an addict, like let's throw them away. There's so much more that goes into that experience, into that issue that I don't think people give a lot of credit for, and don't give a lot of attention to. It's true. I wanted to write about that and the complication of being angry, but also loving someone, and wanting them to be back, but knowing that they can't be back in the way they are, and just desperately wanting them to be in that one moment you had together. I've definitely felt that in my own life, and I know I have lots of friends who have gone through the same thing.

Speaker 1:
[59:39] So much of what you just said fuels the mission of your organization.

Speaker 2:
[59:45] Yeah, I think it does. We don't know what people are going through. We don't understand how deep people's problems go. And I think a lot of times we hear depressed or anxious or bipolar or schizophrenic. We think crazy, you know, like, you're crazy. Or we need to give you medication, leave you alone. Or like, you shouldn't be around other people. And these horrible stigma that brings these people even more into themselves and isolates them even more from society and from the things that could actually help them. And looking those people in the eye and saying, we know it's deeper than that. We know it's hard and that it's not as simple as, you have a problem and here's a solution, but let's work together to try to fix it. And I'm not a mental health expert. I don't give therapy. I don't prescribe medication. But what we do is we highlight the people doing this incredibly hard work in these different organizations around North America. And we say, take our money and keep doing what you're doing. Which I think is the greatest way to do it. I constantly have to remind fans, I'm not a therapist, I'm not able to actually solve these problems for you, but we're raising money for this place that can absolutely help you. And just making those resources more available and more present, and making people more aware of them is, I think, going to make a real difference. And I always say, and I'm rambling now, but I always say that my goal of the busiest project is that someone who fucking hates my music gets help from it. I want it to be way bigger than just something about me. I want it to be something that actually affects the community I live in, and the communities that we're supporting.

Speaker 1:
[61:20] It's a very special mission.

Speaker 2:
[61:22] Dude, it's awesome. Six and a half million dollars, fucking crazy, man. We started out with our goal being a million dollars, which was an insane number at the time. You can tell how important this issue is with how much people are supporting it and how much people are putting behind it. And not just fans, but donors and different people who have tons of money who are giving like, who are like, you know, they could go fuck off and buy a yacht and they're like, no, I want to support this mission. And they're donating and it's like really cool.

Speaker 1:
[61:49] By the way, that's like a quantifiable, like tangible, easy, tangible measurement of like the impact of what you do. But there is also another reality, which is the art that you have created has created a mutual understanding and a realization for so many people that they are not alone, right? And that their feelings are not isolated and they're not the only ones out there dealing with a smorgasbord of shit, dude.

Speaker 2:
[62:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[62:14] And that the positive impact that that has is quite literally immeasurable. You could live a hundred lifetimes and still never figure out the impact of this album or Stick Season or any of your music, what it's had on people.

Speaker 2:
[62:31] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[62:31] It's true.

Speaker 2:
[62:32] I it feels really nice to know that there's something that comes from this that isn't just success or visibility or money or clout, like that there's something more to all of this because you stop doing, I just don't do it for those reasons and none of that's ever satisfied me. And like knowing that there's something more here, makes me want to do this for the rest of my life. If someone had told me that like the feeling I got from touring or the feeling I got from making money or finding success or fame or whatever, like was all there was, like I just wouldn't do this because there's so much more important shit out there. So yeah, knowing that it's helping people and looking at the documentary and feeling like very nervous about the documentary and it's kind of scared to be that open, but like hearing people that have watched it come up to me and be like, hey man, I struggle with that too. I struggle with my body image as well. Or like I struggle with not knowing how to handle the relationship with my dad as well. It's like, that's the shit that moves you man. Like that moves me and that's the point of like why I'm doing this. And there's no other reason besides that connection right there for me to be in this industry, I don't think.

Speaker 1:
[63:36] By the way, I gotta say, Unbody Dysmorphia, you've been open on this topic since we've been talking. I applaud you, dude. I applaud you. And then to have the conversation in the style that you did in the documentary, in the gym, was like, bro, bravery and breaking a wall that is, I mean, no?

Speaker 2:
[63:56] No, yeah, that was hard.

Speaker 1:
[63:58] Is that not like a huge like relief also at the same time?

Speaker 2:
[64:01] It was, I had never really cried about it like that. I think I've done lots of things that would give away that I've struggled. I wrote a song called Shape In My Shadow. Yeah. I'm always kind of like doing the talk and throwing my shirt over my stomach. It was little things, always looking at myself and every reflection I can find, but I never really verbalized how I felt until that moment. I'm happy we captured it. At first, I was like, I don't know if I want this to be in the documentary. It's so vulnerable. But right after I filmed that, one of the camera guys came up and said, you know, handsome, seemingly very healthy person, was like, hey, man, I struggle with that too. And I'm like, that is why we have to put this out, because there's so many people that could be struggling silently with this man and woman that have never known how to say it and might see me saying it, and hopefully they find help for it.

Speaker 1:
[64:54] There's also a moment in the documentary, I hope I didn't write her name down wrong, but the little girl you meet, Zuzza, can you explain what's going on in your head during a moment like that? Because I've personally witnessed artists have these sorts of encounters with people who are just going through different sorts of things in their life. I've personally gone through it a ton of times.

Speaker 2:
[65:22] Yeah, it's so hard.

Speaker 1:
[65:23] It is, I bawled my eyes out, dude.

Speaker 2:
[65:27] Yeah, that scene is so hard, dude. I mean, what I will say is this, like I've done quite a few visits to pediatric hospitals and to folks who are like really-

Speaker 1:
[65:37] It never gets easier.

Speaker 2:
[65:38] No, it never gets easier. But we have to remember for these kids, they've been looking forward to this for so long. They're all so excited. You have to be strong in those moments and give them joy. Because like that's what they're here for, is they're here to find joy in moments of a life that's been really challenging and really painful. And so it's really hard, but you kind of have to like not fall too hard into the, like into how sad it might look or feel. And like just remember that all this person wants and what's gonna make them feel better and heal right now is just you playing the song, you being happy and you giving them a moment of joy. And Zuzza was filled with so much joy and love, like watching that back. And I've gotten to know her parents very well now and have hung out with them on multiple occasions and interacted with her family. And her brother, and that family wants the world to know how joyful that little girl was and how much love she brought the universe and how much love she brought her friends and me. And after she passed away, we weren't sure if we were going to be able to keep that scene in there, just want to be respectful to her family. And they were like, no, we want the world to see this. And yeah, it just was really challenging to know someone so strong and so powerful and to not see them grow up and bring that into the world. But I am changed for having met her. Like, I feel like not just my gratitude for life, but also like the ability to find joy in painful moments and pain that I could not imagine experiencing, being able to smile and be happy and push through life. And she's like a warrior. And I try to like adopt that spirit now, like where things are hard or scary or painful. And I'm like, what was Zuzia do? Like she was a warrior, she would battle her way through this. And I'm going to do, you know.

Speaker 1:
[67:23] Do you get any perspective on your lyrics? That song in particular? I mean like what?

Speaker 2:
[67:28] I do. I think like knowing that a song that to me might have like a sad meaning or a lonely meaning, is like to her is like this magical mantra that pushes her forward. It's like, maybe I'm not, I don't get to determine what this music means to people. And I think that's kind of awesome. Like my experience with the music is so different with the fan's experience. And that's kind of what I love about it. I feel like I learn new things about my own songs when I watch fans sing them and when I hear fans respond to them, because I don't know, music and songwriting is this thing that kind of just comes out of me and I never really know what it means. And then people will be like, this is what that means to me. This is hope, this is strength, this is whatever, this is pain. And like, it's really cool. It does give me a new perspective on the songs and the lyrics and how people kind of interpret them.

Speaker 1:
[68:14] Art's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[68:15] It's so, art is so cool. It's like, it's real magic. It's like to be able to create something that a million different people hear and interpret in their own way, to be in Scotland and to hear people singing about, I love Vermont, but like, knowing that they're singing it, and they're singing about something in themselves that I'll never be able to see. And like, it's like the secret that we all get to share together. It's really cool.

Speaker 1:
[68:35] Really powerful.

Speaker 2:
[68:36] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[68:37] By the way, two things we're going to do, Busyhead Project, we're going to put a link below. And obviously we're in Tennessee. I'm going to put a link to St. Jude. If you can give any amount of money, goes a long way. Those little things matter, matter, matter. Please, please, please. Link below. Go, go, go. Can we talk about Deny, Deny, Deny? You brought it up earlier. It is like, it's about putting weight and spotlight on these performative, for lack of a better phrase, bullshit, right?

Speaker 2:
[69:03] Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think like just being frustrated by someone who doesn't want to give you the conversation that you desperately want, and feeling like I can't reach this person, so fuck it, let's go through the motions then. I think to me, it's like the other side of The Great Divide where it's like, you want to have this conversation so bad, this person wants it to happen, but we can't for some reason allow ourselves to speak about it. And so forget it, we'll just lie around or drive around or watch TV, and how difficult it can be to not be able to break that barrier with somebody you love.

Speaker 1:
[69:41] How do you break it?

Speaker 2:
[69:43] You make a documentary. You have to make a feature-length, hour and a half long documentary in order to have that conversation.

Speaker 1:
[69:51] You have to have a crew shadow you and your family for about a year and a half.

Speaker 2:
[69:54] It's like some Nathan Fielder shit, he's just like... The only way to do it is to create a documentary about your life. I don't know, I think...

Speaker 1:
[70:04] It's so real.

Speaker 2:
[70:05] I think he would do that. It takes some bravery, I think, and it takes an understanding that just because you're ready to talk about something doesn't mean that anyone else is. But it takes trying and saying, hey, when you're ready, let's talk about this. And being honest about how you feel and being upfront about your feelings. I think something I'm very good at is internalizing and sulking and then being irrationally upset about something even though I've never voiced it to anyone before. You know, it's like when you have a dream about someone that pissed you off and you walked around and you're mad at them all day. That doesn't really seem very fair to that person. They didn't make you have a dream about them, but it's one of those things where it's a lot easier to say, fuck it, I'll just be mad today instead of having the conversation that's making you mad. I think that's what that song is about.

Speaker 1:
[70:46] Anger is the easiest emotion to feel.

Speaker 2:
[70:48] It's so easy. It's so instant. And there's a gratification from feeling justified in your anger, even though sometimes we are not justified in our anger. It's easier to have the conversation.

Speaker 1:
[70:58] Amen. Headed north, beautiful song. Nature's back in there.

Speaker 2:
[71:01] Nature's back in there. Yeah, we recorded that one, like, drunk around a table in Vermont. It was just a very Vermont feel to that song, like all the crickets, and people live in these places and are from these places year round for their whole lives. And when people float in and out and try to bring like little pieces of Vermont, New York, or Nashville, California, like, and then dip out whenever it's convenient for them, like, it's a little bit fun to like poke fun at that because people spend their entire lives there. And Vermont is the same way. It's like people live here all year long and some folks from New York come up to go swimming or fishing and go to the fancy lodges and they leave when it gets cold. And I'm like, you have to see the real Vermont, see the real place. The real place is staying here the whole time and seeing what it's like here and like understanding the community and why it's been shaped by year round life.

Speaker 1:
[71:46] It's so funny, like in New Jersey has their own version of that, like down at the Jersey Shore, we call them Bennees.

Speaker 2:
[71:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[71:51] It's people who just show up for the summer and then they leave.

Speaker 2:
[71:53] Yeah, so we have leaf peepers and flatlanders up in Vermont, you know, and then transplants down here, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, leaf peepers, you come up to see the, you come up to see the leaf, and you fuck off, you know.

Speaker 1:
[72:03] The man has like the pumpkin.

Speaker 2:
[72:05] Yeah, he had the pumpkin people, dude. It's a little bit of just like poking fun. I think that song was, I remember driving through Vermont and just seeing someone at a cyber truck with a New York license plate. I was like, you asshole, man. Like, that's why I went home. I'm like, I want to write a song about this kind of shit, dude.

Speaker 1:
[72:21] It's very anti-Vermont.

Speaker 2:
[72:22] It is, but it's also like, like there's that moment where someone's like flipping you off and they drive by and they have like a peace and love sticker in the back of their car. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? I think it's the irony that exists in a lot of these smaller communities and the kind of discrepancy between people who live in these places and people that visit these places.

Speaker 1:
[72:39] Also, difference between somebody in Vermont and New Hampshire, right? There is a difference.

Speaker 2:
[72:42] Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[72:43] They're very close. New Hampshire is live free or die.

Speaker 2:
[72:45] Live free or die and then Vermont is green mountain state. So yeah, New Hampshire is, I think the license plate kind of like sums up the New Hampshire vibe a little bit. It's a beautiful place. It's definitely very different. We lived in a very nice upper middle class area. And compared to some people I grew up with, I was never like super loaded, but I was given, I was very like, I would say I was privileged and I was given a lot by my parents, but they always were intentional about being real and making us understand like how unreal this is compared to a lot of other people in the world and knowing that like, it's a privilege that you're supposed to pass on and you're supposed to like give to others. I don't know what I would do as a parent. I think it would be a conversation about like how to help them understand the reality of life while also supporting them. That's one of those conversations that, I mean, it's going to take a long time to understand. It's like one of those things where you want your kids to have everything, but not to have everything. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[73:45] And it is the ultimate test of a parent is your kids ending up better than you.

Speaker 2:
[73:49] Yeah. And just cause you can doesn't mean you should. Like just cause you can afford to do something doesn't mean that people should have access, the kids should have access to everything. And I mean, parenthood now with children now like, I don't know how well I'd be a parent. It'd be so hard with social media. And it's scary. And like, do you plan on having kids ever?

Speaker 1:
[74:05] I don't, yes. But I don't know when. And it's not even in my, like it's hard to plan for that. Even though one should plan for it. Cause it's the thing you plan for.

Speaker 2:
[74:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[74:15] If you can, if you know.

Speaker 2:
[74:16] But it's like hard to plan for it cause you won't know what it looks like and the world is changing so much too. Yeah. I definitely don't know if I'm, I think if I, if I'm ever going to be a parent, like I want to have like the lifestyle set up where like I'm not on the road and I can be there 100% for it. Cause like I would hate to be leaving. Like even my dogs like hate when I leave. I can't imagine leaving a kid back at home and going on the road. I couldn't handle it. I'd be too sad.

Speaker 1:
[74:38] Dude, kids are so complicated.

Speaker 2:
[74:41] It's complicated and everyone's life is different. I admire anyone who's a parent. It's like, it's just, it's gotta be so hard. And to know what it's like to balance the already incredible stressful job of being an adult in the world and having to take care of a kid. I have so much respect for them and I just hope that I can get to a point where I have the confidence to do that. So I admire folks that have children. It's an amazing thing and hopefully someday I feel like I'm in a place where I can handle that responsibility.

Speaker 1:
[75:09] Parents, thank you for your service.

Speaker 2:
[75:10] Yeah, thank you very much. Mom and dad, thank you so much.

Speaker 1:
[75:13] Who's Dan?

Speaker 2:
[75:14] Dan is my buddy from back home. He's like this really, really close childhood friend of mine who I've known my whole life. I remember this song is kind of two stories. Once we went camping and we just had all these deep conversations about our childhood and our friendships. Another time, we were around a bonfire and we drank literally a full 30 pack of Bud Heavies, which are just the grossest, most heavy beers ever. We were like 18, 19, and we went in the woods and got lost in my own backyard. We have 130 acres. We were literally lost in my own family property. We had to sleep in the woods. We woke up and it was morning and we had to walk trudge back and we were like five seconds from my house, obviously, but we were drunk and couldn't see anything. So it was a story about that. Kind of like the opposite of The Great Divide, I think, where there's a lot of silence in that song and there's a lot of this tension that we can't reach each other. The song Dan to me is a good reflection of our relationship where we've always said everything we wanted to say and been able to really connect and have those hard conversations.

Speaker 1:
[76:16] Even it's talking about politics.

Speaker 2:
[76:18] Yeah, anything like talking about the differences in our lives. I don't want to speak too much to his personal life, but we come from very different places and very different lifestyles. We still maintain this incredible friendship for 20 years. I think that's the beauty of what friendship is. It bridges that gap.

Speaker 1:
[76:36] Hard to share that song with him or easy?

Speaker 2:
[76:38] He loved it. No, he said he felt like Achilles. He had his own song. He was like, we played it flying out to my bachelor party and we all sang the words. He absolutely loves it.

Speaker 1:
[76:47] That's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[76:48] Yeah, he's the man and I was very happy to be able to include him in the album because he's a big part of what I love about going home and what I love about my friendships.

Speaker 1:
[76:57] All the Horses is a very brave song.

Speaker 2:
[76:59] That song was written in response to the flooding in Vermont. We went through some devastating floods a few years ago. I was there for the beginning of it. I remember my brother and I were driving through town. Town was completely flooded. We just see these horses getting absolutely pelted by rain and water and flood rising around them and I just noticed how relaxed they look and how calm they looked and how they looked like nothing else in the world was going wrong. Meanwhile, everyone around us is freaking out. I thought it was something beautiful about these animals that can sense when there's real trouble and real danger. They just stood out there through this really hard moment and they stayed out there. Whereas I was flying to LA the next week and leaving this really devastated, flooded area behind. I just felt jealous of these horses that had the ability to stay in this place and be brave and stick around when I was always leaving. The flood was almost like a flood that went through my life that separated me from Vermont and from the things that I loved. It was also this horrible thing that happened in Vermont and all these communities were getting really badly damaged. Meanwhile, I'm flying off and going to an airport lounge to go play a show or something like that. It just made me feel disconnected from where I'm from and I'd betrayed it somehow.

Speaker 1:
[78:13] Real. By the way, horses are amazing and they can survive so much.

Speaker 2:
[78:17] They're badass, dude. They've been around forever, man. Horses are so cool.

Speaker 1:
[78:20] It's exceptional.

Speaker 2:
[78:21] And they're like, I mean, they're scary and they also, I don't like horses, how they sense your, they can tell your spirit. Like, every time I get on a horse, like you're anxious and they're like, start fucking shaking around and stuff like that.

Speaker 1:
[78:31] They know.

Speaker 2:
[78:31] They know who you are, like deep down. And so I'm always afraid that a horse is gonna think I'm a bad person.

Speaker 1:
[78:36] A horse is gonna read you for fails.

Speaker 2:
[78:38] Horses clocked my tea, dude.

Speaker 1:
[78:41] Listen to The Great Divide. There's a link below. Go, go, go. Listen to it all. It's waiting for you. It's on Amazon Music. Noah Kahan.

Speaker 2:
[78:48] Zach, I love you, man. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:
[78:50] I did. I love you. I love you very much and I thank you so much for your bravery in the music you put out and for sharing it with the world and continuing to go and continuing to keep moving forward in the face of, dude, a lot of shit. It gets hard to be an artist. I thank you very deeply and I thank you very, very much and also like no bullshit. It happens every now and then, but sometimes people come on our show and it's like, oh shit, I think this person can be one of the next generationally great artists of our time. You did it again with this album. You give Neil Young energy and that's just coming from a guy who randomly got a phone call from Neil Young one day. He asked to come on my show. And ever since then, I fucking vibe with this man. Your storytelling ability is very similar and your lyricism and the bluntness and the vividness and it's very direct. It's really extraordinary.

Speaker 2:
[79:41] I really appreciate you, man. Genuinely, thank you for the support through my career and for what you're doing. And it's just good to see you happy and appreciate your friendship, man.

Speaker 1:
[79:52] Same, brother. Love you. Noah Kahan, everybody. Listen to The Great Divide. There's a link below.