transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] So, you're saying with Hilton Honors, I can use points for a free night stay anywhere? Anywhere. What about fancy places like the Canopy in Paris? Yeah, Hilton Honors, baby. Or relaxing sanctuaries like the Conrad and Tulum? Hilton Honors, baby. What about the five-star Waldorf Astoria in the Maldives? Are you gonna do this for all 9,000 properties?

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
[01:01] I am unashamed. What about you?

Speaker 5:
[01:06] We just finished the discussion. They really just opened up a new discussion, Jase, about this idea about I don't know, or we know what we know. My line was, it's who you know, that typically matters in life. That's how you tend to get by, right? You get by in relationships by who you know, because you get in a pickle and you need to know somebody. You got to know a guy. I was telling the story recently about having to have an MRI done. But that's not easy to make happen the way I needed it to happen. It just turns out I knew a guy. Actually, Zach reminded me that I knew a guy that I had to call upon to be the guy that made the connections for me to get done what I needed to get done. So that's this idea of, I think, once you know who Jesus is at the level that John is talking about in 1 John, because I am the way, the truth, and the life, then you know the guy. He's the guy to know above all guys. So that's kind of what we got into last time. And Zach, you were into Romans 11.

Speaker 6:
[02:22] Jase brought up Romans 11, 26. And I want to apologize. I did go on a little bit of a rant. I may have hijacked the podcast. Because when I looked up and it was 43 minutes in, and Jase is like, let's get to John 5, 1 John 5. I was like, okay. So I went a little overboard. So I went and I did. And in the spirit of humility, we were talking about not being able to say I don't know. And then I'm sitting there telling you what I know. So I want to apologize for that. And then I also want to say one more thing about it before we move on, because I was thinking after.

Speaker 5:
[02:56] And he just keeps on hijacking. And he still needs a-

Speaker 6:
[03:00] Well, I got to say it because 1126. In this way, all of Israel will be saved. I say, we got to remember the context though of Romans 9, 10, and 11. And so 1126 is- he's ending an argument that began earlier. And so when he started Romans 9, you got to remember this. When you talk about Israel, how do we define Israel? Depends on who you're talking to. This is what Paul says. It is not as though God's word has failed for not all, not all, who are descended from Israel belong to Israel. And not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring. But through Isaac, shall your offspring be named. This means that it is not, it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but it is the children of the promise who are counted as offspring. And so I think that what's happening in this is that he's defining who are God's real children, who are the elect, who are his people. And he's going to show us that it's those who would pursue him by faith. I mean, that's really how he ends Romans chapter 9. And it's the pursuit of faith. We're saved by faith through grace. And so that's the entry point into Christ is we put our faith in him. So when you get to that Romans 11, 26, the way that anybody is going to be saved, is they're going to have to put their faith in Jesus.

Speaker 4:
[04:43] It is interesting that John and 1 John uses multiple times referencing those who have surrendered to Jesus as children. Children, my dear children, my dear children. I mean, just off the top of my head, 1 John 2, 1, my dear children, I write this to you that you won't sin, but if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense. Where are the other places? 2, 28. Let me put my glasses on. 2, 28. And now, dear children, continue in him so that when he appears, we may be confident and unashamed. Chapter 3, verse 1. How great is the love the Father has lavished on us that we should be called children of God. I feel an adoption. I was going to move on since you apologized, but now, now I feel like this just won't end. I feel like I need to read that Galatians 4. I think we got, I think we got, and I know this is going to, this is the last rabbit hole on this, Zach, and then it's done. But now, you know, I feel like I should read Galatians 3.26 and 3.27. All right, so let me just start with 3.20. Is that 3.28? There is, well, I got to read 26. You're all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. That was your, that's what you just got through saying, right? For all of you who are baptized into Christ.

Speaker 6:
[06:24] Well, Paul, I just, that's what I got through. I quoted Paul. I didn't, I didn't say it. Paul said it.

Speaker 4:
[06:29] Well, I know, but that was your point. So then he says in verse 28, There's neither Jew nor Greek slave nor free, male nor female. You're all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. I have to read that, Zach, because you said children of the promise, Romans 11. There it is.

Speaker 6:
[06:49] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[06:50] All right. So, but this next paragraph, I really believe sums up the whole story. And it, and it ends in this metaphor of having the spirit of adoption. And look, I've been a part and Zach, you have to, on what that entails in the physical world of adoption. Because you think, you know, here's a, here's a kid who's, for whatever reason, has no parents to take care of him. And so another couple comes in and says, we want to adopt you. And they'll go to court. And the proceeding doesn't last very long. It's basically, do you want to do this? Yes. Boom. There it is. You know where the struggle is for that kid? Is understanding that spirit of adoption. Because psychologically, this person has been rejected by their natural parents. Would you agree?

Speaker 6:
[08:00] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[08:01] So that struggle is never going to go away. Well, it's the perfect metaphor in saying, who is the children, children of the promise, us being adopted, us having to overcome the fear of rejection. So now, having said all that, I'm going to read it. So after he says this about children of the promise, chapter 4, verse 1, what I'm saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. He is subject to guardians, trustees, until the time set by his father. So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. What are the basic principles of the world? This includes a lot of different things, and we don't have to go down a rabbit hole on that. But we're slaves to sin, we're slaves to the law, we're slaves to the evil one. I mean, 1 John 5 says that, the whole world were fixed to get to that is under the control of the evil one. So here we go. But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law. Well, who is that? Who is that? Wouldn't that be Israel? Didn't they? God give them the law? I was making sure you paid attention. That we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the spirit of His Son into our hearts, the spirit who calls out Abba, which means Aramaic for father, father. So you're no longer a slave, but a son. And since you are a son, God has made you an heir. I mean, that section is awesome. And it takes care of a lot of problems in understanding the purpose of Israel, the children of Israel, who are the children now, why God did this this way. He adopts us.

Speaker 6:
[10:20] One of the things that we love to do as a family is on occasion we'll watch a good funny movie, and Jill will just laugh like nobody else. And I love the way she looks when she's laughing hysterically. And I wish I could just capture one of those moments and keep that for the future. You know, one of the things I love about Aura Frames, it gives those memories that you can capture them, it gives them a home that they can live in. So they're easy to see and share anytime.

Speaker 4:
[10:44] I got one for my parents for Christmas and they love it. They love it so much.

Speaker 6:
[10:50] In fact, my dad will text me and say, any new pictures to send to me on my Aura Frame?

Speaker 4:
[10:55] I'm like, oh yeah, sure, absolutely. Got them right here.

Speaker 2:
[10:58] It's super easy to do.

Speaker 6:
[10:59] Did you upload any of the new baby pictures on there yet? Absolutely. It's pretty amazing. Aura Frames has free unlimited storage, so there's room for all your photos and videos without worrying about space. They make it easy to preload before the frame even ships and you can keep adding new memories from anywhere at any time. Sharing is effortless with Aura Frames. Just download the free Aura app or text photos straight to the frame. So make Mother's Day special with Aura Frames, named number one by Wirecutter. You can save on the gifts moms love by visiting auraframes.com. For a limited time, listeners can get $25 off their best selling Carver Map frame with code Unashamed. That's auraframes.com, promo code Unashamed. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout and get the discount. Terms and conditions apply. Keep this in mind, too, you think, well, how does this, how does all of this fit in with when we talk about eschatology and we talk about the temple, the temple motif and all of that? How does this fit in? Is this all like separate out? Is this like, what is this? The third temple, all that we keep talking about, all that stuff, how does it fit together? All you got to do is back up to Ephesians chapter 2. Listen to this in conjunction with what you just said. He says that, for he himself is our peace. This is chapter 2 verse 14. For he himself, he himself is our peace. And he has made us both, well who is the both there? That would be the Jew and the Gentile. He has made us both one, not two. He didn't make us both two. He didn't say he kept us both two. No, he made us both one. And he has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances that he might create in himself one new man in the place of two. So he said, what's at stake if we keep trying to keep this thing separate? Well, looks like Christ is trying to create one new man in place of two, so making peace and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross. When he said, what's the cross have to do with everything? Because it's through the cross that we are made one, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him, we both, who's that? Jew and Gentile, we both, those far away and those near, both have access in one spirit to the Father. So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow, fellow citizens. What is a citizen? That's a member of a nation. What nation are you a citizen of? With the saints and members of the same household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. That would be Isaiah, Ezekiel, all the prophets. Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple. There's your third temple right there, into a holy temple in the Lord. Who's the holy temple of the Lord? Jew and Gentile together, being grown into a holy temple in him. You are also being built together, not separate, together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. For this reason, I, Paul, prisoner of Christ Jesus, on behalf of you Gentiles, assuming that you have heard the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation. Well, what mysteries are you talking about? Well, go read the Book of Romans. What does Paul say he's doing there? I'm bringing the Gentiles to the obedience of faith. Well, Paul received some type of mystery. Well, is that the mystery? As I've written to you briefly, he's gonna tell us what it is in just a second. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ. Why in the world is he talking about this mystery? Which was made known to the sons of men and other generations, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. So, what is the mystery that he is talking about, that he is so bent on telling us in the Book of Ephesians, or the Letter to the Ephesian Church? It's this, verse 6, Ephesians 3, 6. The mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, partakers of the promise, leading Christ, Jesus, to the Gospel. I mean, it's so redundant, and it's so overwhelming what Paul is doing here in his eschatology, in the inclusion of one, God has created one people, I mean, I just, I'm gonna be reluctant to anything that would come against that. I think we have to press into that.

Speaker 5:
[16:00] Well, and I think that's why he mentions the Spirit in this section we're in as well, as the glue, so to speak, of those two. Because in 1 Corinthians 12, Paul said, the body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts, and though all its parts are many, they are one body. So, we were, as it is in Christ, we were all baptized by one Spirit, or in one Spirit, into one body. Then he says what you just said, that whether Jew or Greek, slave or free, see, adopted or legitimate son, we were all given the one Spirit to drink. And so, I think it's why he's talked about the Spirit testifying in this context, because that he is the glue. He's the one, part of that mystery that now reveals it to us, in us, and is able to speak, as we know from Romans 8, when we can't really wrap our brains around it, Jase. The Holy Spirit is the difference maker.

Speaker 4:
[17:02] Well, I mean, our whole story in 1 John is people were perverting the Gospel of Jesus by saying, well, God couldn't have become a man. Well, John's like, well, he did. And the story in Galatians, which I think is what people should read if you're confused on where Israel is now and today, I mean, that's what it was addressing. Please, God chose the nation. They didn't do what they were supposed to do, which was represent him. But through that promise, Jesus comes, redeems them by dying on a cross and being resurrected. And then groups of Jewish people said, okay, you can have Jesus plus all the things that made us into a great nation, the law. And it was kind of a nationalistic view. And that's why he wrote to the Galatians. I mean, he started off with very graphic, serious language when he said in chapter one, and he said, I'm astonished that you're quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of God and are turning to a different gospel. Well, we know what the gospel is of Jesus. And then he says, which is no gospel at all. Evidently, some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to revert the gospel of Christ. And he takes that very, very seriously. So that's kind of what it's about trying to, they were trying to, okay, come to Jesus. And you got to be circumcised because that's a sign. I mean, there's a lot in here about circumcision.

Speaker 6:
[18:48] And Peter bought into it. Even Peter bought into it for a minute. He had the cultural pressure that Peter was under. He was like, oh, Peter was forgetting kind of the whole thing about, wait, one people now, right? He was forgetting that. And he became, he sided up with the Judaizers. And so they were keeping-

Speaker 4:
[19:05] Oh, that's a great example, Zach, because, and look, you know that was his problem all along. Cause remember when he was chastised by Jesus, when he's like, hey, if everybody falls away, you know, not me, in memory of Jesus was like-

Speaker 6:
[19:19] I'm with you till the end.

Speaker 4:
[19:20] In about 15 minutes, you're gonna deny me three times because what was this problem? Remember when the woman comes up and was like, oh, aren't you one of the followers of Jesus? Oh no, I never knew him. Why? And Galatians, Paul's letter to the Galatians addresses that problem in verse 10 of chapter one. I didn't read this, but since you brought that up, he says, am I now trying to win the approval of men or of God? And that was the whole problem. They're like, you have to look, act, and be a Jew. You can have Jesus also, but you have to have the law, all these things. You got to be circumcised. So he addresses that in chapter two. He talks about Paul and Peter being in opposition over that. But Peter did come around.

Speaker 6:
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Speaker 5:
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Speaker 6:
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Speaker 4:
[21:37] What I want to, I read the 326 through 44, but Al, when you brought up the Spirit, you know, when he gets to Chapter 5, I mean, just listen to, listen to how he frames this in Chapter 5. In verse 2, he says, Mark my words, I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value at all. They were the physical act of circumcision to be in the door into acceptance by the Jews with Jesus. He was addressing that. And he says in verse 4, you who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ. You have fallen away from grace. Which I've read this verse before about people say, well, you know, you can never fall away. And you read, and they're like, we're going to read the Bible and for what it says. And so you read a verse like this and they're like, well, that doesn't mean what it says, you know. It's like, well, evidently they could fall away from if they're not acknowledging as Christ being the one who provides the new birth and you become a child of God. But anyway, that's a different rabbit hole. But then it says, but by faith, we eagerly await through the spirit, the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love, which is why it's fascinating that when Paul wrote to the Colossians, he uses circumcision as symbolic of baptism. Remembering Colossians 2, talking about the new birth. It's like Christ circumcises your sinful flesh. So anyway, I said all that to get to verse 13 of chapter 5, where then it says, you, my brothers, were called to be free, but do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature or the flesh, rather serve one another in love. Which sounds, this sounds a lot familiar to what John's saying in 1st John. Because then he says, the entire law is summed up in a single command. Love your neighbor as yourself. If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you'll be destroyed by each other. I mean, you're like, what a, what a paragraph. And I was on the last podcast telling you, I was listening to a sermon by John Tyson about freedom. And this was his verse where he went. He's like, have you ever thought about that in the spirit of freedom, this spirit of adoption as being the children of God, whether you're a Jew or Greek. He has this passage in here where it says, look, just cause you're free, that doesn't mean you go out there and indulge in the sinful flesh. I mean, you're a new person. God redeemed you. He, new person is not a big enough phrase. You're a new creation, which he says in chapter 6 in verse 15, where he says, neither circumcision or uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation. And that was right after he said in verse 14, may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world. So that is the point of Galatians. But you see what it's producing. It's not producing like what John said in 1st John, this because you're participating in the love of God and you're a child of God, you're now love one another. He's like, you're biting and devouring each other because you're not following the rules of the Jewish nation. I mean, it is just a fight. And that is not representing who God is. So he goes on to say that the last thing I want to read, then you take over is that in verse 22, he talks about the acts of the sinful nature right after he said in verse 18, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. So if you think this is all about how many rules and which rules and which commandment, if you're led by the Spirit, you're not under law. And then it says 22, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such things, there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh, the sinful nature, with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited. Which, what does that mean? You think you know everything. Provoking and envying each other.

Speaker 5:
[26:35] And that's an empowerment, Jase. That's another role of the Spirit. He's a unifier. He is a deposit of the looking ahead to eternal life, even though we're still finite while we're here until we get our glorified bodies. He's a different house by which we live in. You have an earthly temple versus the divine temple which has the Holy Spirit. He is a different motivation. In the text you just read, Philippians 2 says the same thing. In other words, it's his fruit versus our own fruit which always turns out to be rotten when it gets out there. I love that idea that that's the Holy Spirit's role.

Speaker 6:
[27:19] What is it? Think about how Jesus talks about the role of the Holy Spirit in John 16 and he says he's going to do three things when he comes. He's going to convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment. Then he goes in to define what all three of those categories mean, but if you think about the role of the Holy Spirit, one of his primary functions and purposes is he's the third member of the Trinity that's illuminating our minds and hearts to the truth of the gospel, which starts with our conviction of our own sin. It's the Spirit that says, you're guilty. When you have that moment, and I think everyone has these moments in their life where they're like, I don't feel like I'm a good person. I feel guilty about something that I did or whatever. You feel the weight. That's the Spirit that's illuminating your awareness of your position and your situation. That's the Spirit that does that. So when the Spirit speaks, if you think about the Spirit as the primary agent of God to reveal to the believer the truth about God's word, that's the whole point. Jesus says all this. He says when Spirit comes, he calls him the counselor, calls him the Spirit of Truth. When he comes, he'll guide you into all truth. Read that whole John 14 through John 17 area of Scripture, and you start to realize the Spirit is the one that's making this stuff known to us. He's taking what's God's and he's making it known to us. He's telling us. He's revealing it to us. Where I think this ties into what we're talking about is that your response to revelation from God himself is going to be defined in one of two ways. One, it's going to be defined in a term we call sin, which would be, this is what sin is. It's to receive the revelation from God and to say, nope, that's not true, not doing that. That's what sin is. It's to reject in the revelation of God, of God revealing his inner life and his invitation for you to participate in that. It's to say, no, not going to do that. Did God really say you can't eat from any tree in the garden? I mean, kind of, whatever. God must have been lying to us about that. He must have been holding out. God doesn't want you to know what he knows. Yeah, you know what, you're right, Satan. I reject what God said, and I'm going to do it. That's sin. The other option in responding to God's revelation is we say, I actually believe what you're saying, God, and I'm actually going to obey now, not because I want to earn favor with you. I'm going to obey what you're telling me because I believe that what you're telling me is true. It'd be like God say, hey, go around the corner and they're giving away free hot dogs. I'm like, you know what, I believe you. I'm going to go around the corner because I want a free hot dog. I'm not trying to earn something by going around the corner to get the free hot dog. You told me that there's free hot dogs around the corner. I believe that there is. I'm going to go do it. That's called faith. I believe God in what you're telling me is good, and it's for my good, and that you have my best interest in heart. The word for that is faith. When you get to Ephesians, when you get to Galatians, that's the whole point of what Paul is trying to say is, he says that you're saved in Ephesians 2, he says you're saved by grace through faith. You're saved by grace. Not anything you've done, but you didn't earn it. You're saved by grace, but how do I get access into that grace is through faith. That's what he echoes at in Romans chapter 5, when he says that we obtain access into grace by faith. So God reveals the way of righteousness to us, God reveals the way to wholeness to us, God reveals the abundant life to us, that's grace because you didn't earn any of that. He reveals all of that and offers all of that to you free of charge. Well, how do I get into that? How do I get access into that grace? Romans chapter 5, verse 1 and 2 says you do it by faith. So then when you get to Romans 9, and you get into this whole conversation about who's Israel, and he says, well, it's not the descendants of the flesh. Paul says that. It's not the DNA that makes you Israel. It's are you a child of the promise? If you're a child of the promise, if you're a child of the covenant, then you are a member of Israel. That's who the real members of Israel are. Well, how do I know if I'm a member of the covenant? Are you pursuing and responding to the Holy Spirit in faith? That's why the Gentiles were included in, because Romans, at the end of Romans chapter 9, he says, they pursued him by faith. They received the revelation from God, and they said, I believe you, God, I'm walking with you. That's where this whole thing comes full circle. And without the Holy Spirit, guess what? This isn't possible. And so now, when I respond to Christ in this way, and I submit my life to him, then the Spirit moves and takes up residence in my body. Now it's more than just a conviction from the outside looking in. Now, as a believer in Christ, as one being made whole with Christ, as being one people group now, right, in Christ, now the Spirit takes up residence in me, and the revelation doesn't come from outside to me. The revelation is in me coming out of me. And that's a big difference.

Speaker 5:
[32:47] So Zach, you know, I think for us maybe it was when we started getting a little older, maybe 40s for both of us, but you get to a point where you kind of realize the scale won't budge.

Speaker 6:
[33:00] You get over 40, it's just starts, it starts tanking. So yeah.

Speaker 5:
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Speaker 4:
[34:06] We have a faith in what we know about God rather than who we know because all the arguments are coming about what or when or even who as far as Israel instead of the God of the Bible who wrote this, which is, can we go to what these words mean? And it's taken us, combined with the last podcast, about 90 minutes.

Speaker 5:
[34:37] Does that need to apologize again?

Speaker 4:
[34:40] Yeah, probably so. But Zach, you're forgiven because I thought that was really good.

Speaker 5:
[34:45] No, and that's the beauty of the long form, is what we said.

Speaker 4:
[34:49] Having said all that, this is confusing. Yeah, and so when you read in 1 John 5, 13, I write these things to you, believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. So that word, it's hard to get the exact Greek word because this word takes various forms. Same word.

Speaker 5:
[35:14] It's a root with a lot of branches, Jason.

Speaker 4:
[35:17] I mean a lot of branches and it's hard to wrap your head around. And what's funny about it, and I'm using that word carelessly, is that the word know is hard to know. So.

Speaker 5:
[35:37] What was the Donald Rumsfeld?

Speaker 4:
[35:39] Oh, I'm going to get to the Donald Rumsfeld. Maybe we should do that first, which will.

Speaker 5:
[35:44] Yeah, do that first before we get to the week.

Speaker 4:
[35:45] I feel like my head is about to explode already. So Donald Rumsfeld, I'm looking this up on Wikipedia. Where is this quote? They asked him about during the Iraq war. They were saying, you know, the whole catalyst for that was, well, this Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. And so we're going to break that up. Well, that became from the media's perspective, or will give us some proof of that. So they asked Donald Rumsfeld about, you know, how do you know that he has weapons of mass destruction?

Speaker 5:
[36:29] Because this, you know, and while you're looking it up, it does matter because we've kind of got the same impetus in this current war with the, you know, uranium to make a nuclear weapon. Now, we do know more, but the idea is there's a reason why, because the thing is why was Trump going in now, that's the reason they're giving their number one reason. So it's kind of similar.

Speaker 4:
[36:53] Well, because that's what, you know, I'm not saying any take on it, but I'm saying that's how you're, they're seeking justification for doing this.

Speaker 6:
[37:03] But I would add this that, and I'm not making a point on that either, but if that's your justification, stick with that. Don't make it some kind of eschatology that we got to support something like that. That's the part that I'm just like, no, that's not in the Bible. We don't have to support any of this war. Like for that reason, if you want to make a case for some kind of geopolitical argument, and that's beyond my pay grade, that's not really the world I live in anymore. But that's a different argument, and let them have that. But we're talking about from the perspective of scripture.

Speaker 4:
[37:35] All right. If we go down that rabbit hole, we're never going to get through this. All right. So February 12th, 2002, he's sitting before Congress, I guess. And look, here was when I asked about the government of Iraq with the supply of weapons of mass destruction, Rumsfeld stated, so it's a simple question. Do they have weapons of mass destruction? Here's his response. Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me. Because as we know, there are known knowns, there are things we know we know, we also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. The ones we don't know, we don't know. The ones we don't know, this is for real, I'm reading this. I was sitting there as a kid. I say a kid, what was that? 24 years ago, I was half my age. I felt like I was a kid. I listened to this because my dad was sitting beside me and he went, I don't think this old boy knows what he's talking about.

Speaker 6:
[38:55] It reminds me of the old Phil Plattons.

Speaker 4:
[38:56] I'm not even finished yet.

Speaker 6:
[38:58] Let me let you finish.

Speaker 4:
[39:00] Go ahead. But there are also unknown unknowns. The ones we don't know, we don't know. And if one looks throughout history, the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be difficult ones. That was his answer, which the last category was there are also unknown unknowns.

Speaker 6:
[39:25] Huh.

Speaker 4:
[39:25] That was his answer.

Speaker 6:
[39:27] I'd have to run that through ChatGPT to figure out what that even means.

Speaker 4:
[39:31] Now look, I looked at, well, I've already done this research for you. This is two hours of my life that I'll never get back.

Speaker 6:
[39:37] You ran the logic on it?

Speaker 4:
[39:38] No, I just, I researched that story. I thought, where did that come from? Off the top of his head and sitting, you know, you're being interrogated. There's a war going on and that's your answer. Look, there's been a movie about this. There's been books written about that quote. I didn't, I haven't watched the movie, but I saw it. I didn't know there was a movie.

Speaker 6:
[40:04] Was it a comedy?

Speaker 4:
[40:07] Where's the movie that came out about it? I saw that somewhere about it.

Speaker 5:
[40:13] I think the movie was actually about Bush, but it, but there was a book.

Speaker 4:
[40:18] There was a book called The Unknown Known. Where's the movie? I saw there was a movie that came out about it. But anyway, the historical context of that statement, I didn't realize this till I went down this road hole, was in the military and that started in the 1960s, they had a group of people who worked under those three category, the known knowns, the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns. So that's where it came from.

Speaker 6:
[40:49] So it wasn't random.

Speaker 4:
[40:50] It wasn't random. It's like they had three departments in our military, and I'm sure they're still there, that deal with the known knowns, the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns in any kind of warfare situation.

Speaker 5:
[41:06] So because the practical part of this, to bring a little bit of practicality to that, because that sounds like a paradox situation. But when you're trying to protect people from groups that want to harm them, you're trying to figure out what you don't know yet. I mean, in other words, if something could have been done to avoid 9-11.

Speaker 6:
[41:29] Which is a real threat. I mean, it's a threat.

Speaker 4:
[41:32] So the whole point though is, the more I researched this, well, those three departments came from an historical perspective, came from a quote. We're going back to Socrates now. This is where this all spawned from. And I want to read this to you. You will have to replay this multiple times to get it, because I read it a dozen times. Now, I'm not very bright. I've told you that. Jesus has made me smarter than anybody.

Speaker 5:
[42:02] Zach will get it on the first take.

Speaker 4:
[42:04] No, he's not going to get this. It's a riddle. But this is where this all came from.

Speaker 6:
[42:10] This is from Socrates?

Speaker 4:
[42:11] Well, Socrates, two millennia ago, Socrates considered known unknowns and unknown unknowns. There's controversy on where the exact poem that I'm fixed to read came from, but we're going way back, is my point. So Rumsfeld's statement, I'm reading from Wikipedia, closely paralleled a well-known proverb about knowledge. Here we go. You ready? He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool. Shun him. He who knows not and knows that he knows not is simple. Teach him. He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep. Wake him. He who knows and knows that he knows is wise. Follow him.

Speaker 6:
[43:09] All right. So it's warming up outside. So we're spending a lot more time outside of getting our yard ready. We did that with Fast-Growing Trees. Missy, I think you got a little recent upgrade with fastgrowingtrees.com. We did.

Speaker 4:
[43:20] We lost a lot of trees during the ice storm. So we got some privacy trees. Jase planted them. I did.

Speaker 6:
[43:26] And they look fantastic. Jase, great job. You did a great job there. You're getting a lot of brownie points with Fast-Growing Trees. They're America's largest and most trusted online nursery with thousands of trees and plants and over 2 million happy customers, four of which are right here. Fast-Growing Trees, they have a massive selection with over 6,000 options from fruit trees to privacy trees, which is what I planted as well, Missy, in my yard, and shrubs and even house plants. They actually can help you find what works for your particular climate and space. So you're not guessing at what works. And Fast-Growing Trees makes it simple. Just click, order, and you're good to grow. Plus, everything is backed by what they call their alive and thrive guarantee. So everything arrives happy, healthy, and ready to plant. And if you get stuck, their plant experts can help with planning, planting, and caring for your trees. Bottom line is this, Fast-Growing Trees makes it easier to get your place looking the way you've always wanted it to without overcomplicating it. And right now, they have great deals on spring planting essentials, up to half off on select plants. And listeners to our show get 20% off their first purchase when using the code Unashamed to check out. That's an additional 20% off better plants and better growing at fastgrowingtrees.com using the code Unashamed to check out. fastgrowingtrees.com code Unashamed. Now is the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use Unashamed to save the day. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. I mean, I got most of it. It's a little bit of a mind-bender.

Speaker 4:
[44:56] Well, I just told you, you're going to have to read it a dozen times to get it. But if you follow the rabbit hole, three of those are not to be desired. And one is.

Speaker 5:
[45:05] Yeah, I got that.

Speaker 4:
[45:06] Which sounds a lot like the parable of the sower, by the way. But he's basically saying he who knows not and knows not that he knows not, he's a fool. You know what I mean? He doesn't know anything and he knows he doesn't know anything, but he's just like, I don't know, whatever. But he who knows not, but knows that he knows not, well, he just needs some teaching. All right. He who knows and knows that he knows is asleep, because he's just not doing anything about it. He's just, he knows and he knows that he knows.

Speaker 6:
[45:50] You know, you know, you know, now go do something with it. Get up, go.

Speaker 4:
[45:52] Exactly. Wake him up. He who knows and knows that he knows is wise. Oh, wait, hold on. The third one is he who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep.

Speaker 6:
[46:05] That's what you're like.

Speaker 4:
[46:05] He knows, yeah. But he knows not that he knows. He who knows and knows that he knows, now he's wise. He's like, I got something to tell you, which sounds a lot-

Speaker 5:
[46:17] Which sort of the fourth filter sort of fits our narrative in First John, because he combines the word confidence. So you read it several times.

Speaker 4:
[46:31] Exactly. So, said all that to say, there's a reason why the most common English phrase, because basically what Donald Rumsfeld was saying, was the most common English conversational phrase used by English-speaking humans. I don't know if there's weapons of magic. He couldn't say that. So he went off on Socrates, and the US military saying, unknowns, unknowns, no.

Speaker 5:
[47:02] By the way, just a historical footnote, there were no weapons of magic. They did not find them. Well, exactly.

Speaker 6:
[47:13] Yeah, there's a lesson there. Sometimes your paranoia can take over of what you don't know, the unknowns that you don't know, and then you create those in your head. Then sometimes I think they're real. Sometimes, I just read an article this week on a new, I think the name of it was Mithos, or let me look it up, Mithos. It was Mithos, and it was essentially a new AI that they had built, that was able to penetrate all these tech platforms and find every single vulnerability that had been hidden for 25 years. It was able to, in the sandbox, it got outside the sandbox and figured it out, and they were like, this could be like a cyber security nuclear bomb. This is like the, this thing. I think they may have shut it down. It was so scary when they looked at what it was able to uncover. So there are things that are out there that we don't even know yet, that are being, we don't know what's coming. We can, and I hope that there are people like our Department of Defense and other people that are anticipating the unknowns that we don't know yet, because those are real threats that we don't know exist yet. But at the same time, it's like you got to go into that with some type of humility of, we don't know, we can't know everything exhaustively. All right.

Speaker 4:
[48:42] That's a perfect segue for me to finally get to this. Let me give you an illustration. So in 1st John, here's the two words. This first one, which is used in 1st John 5.13, and I'm going to give you the places where it's used. Now, it's very difficult to define this, because I had trouble wrapping my head around it. But I'm going to just give you what AI says, and then maybe based on all my research here, I can say, don't get the wrong idea in some of these definitions. All right? Because this is a very difficult word to define. But here's what AI says. It says, refers to absolute, certain or intuitive knowledge. And somewhere else I read, it's kind of like a gut feeling instinct of knowledge. It's like you see somebody, you walk into a place you've never been, and there's a vibe, and you know this is trouble. You follow me? That's kind of like a gut feeling where we come up with that. There's something in your gut saying, I know. But you don't have any experience of it. You don't even go have a class, and it's just an instinctual knowledge, which caused me to research where this begins. What I was fascinated at is in an unborn baby, in four or five weeks old, you have this process that begins of knowledge being transformed in your brain. It begins that early of this something you know or are aware of. Let's see, what is the rest of the definitions? Sometimes referred to as fullness of knowledge, which I think that's a good definition. But then it says or head knowledge, and I think that would lead you down the wrong road because then we think, oh, if we go learn, go study for something, I have all this head knowledge, but that's not what it's referring to. It's more of an instinctual thing in the upstairs without experience, like coming from your wiring. That's like, wait a minute. So it ends the definition by saying, categorized by settled assurance, which sounds a lot like the definition of faith. Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. You follow me? So that's that. So where is that used in 1 John? I'm going to give them to you, because the other one is also used in 1 John, and we'll get to that in just a second. So 1 John 2, 21, where it says, because you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie comes from the truth. So that's one. 1 John 3, 2. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known, but we know that when he appears, we shall be like him. So the second one there, that's it. In actuality, I think the first one, what we will be has not been yet made known. That's the other one, which is the, and I'll go ahead and give you that definition now. So the other word for no is genusca. Genusco generally refers to experiential, progressive, or relational knowledge gained through personal interaction. And the reason I had a hard time wrapping my head around this is because that's what we promote with about the Bible and about our, God's whole plan is for us to be in this relational status. So that's what becomes tricky about this. You know, when you read these things. Now, I'll give you an example of where that word is used in 1st John. Speaking of God and of all places, it's in 1st John 3, 20. That second sentence, it says, for God is greater than our hearts and He knows everything. Well, that word for no is this experiential progressive relational knowledge, which I found fascinating and kind of sobering and a little bit scary, which in the context of their fits because it's like we shouldn't have a heart of fear. But if you wrap your head around that God who we have a relationship with, He knows everything. He has experienced everything because everything comes from God. I mean, He knows us so intimately, which goes back to the reason I brought up that about an unborn baby at 4 or 5 weeks old, starts that process in their actual brain and wiring.

Speaker 6:
[54:16] It's also the same, I think it's the same word used when I was talking earlier about Jesus' introduction to the Holy Spirit. And I was talking about that whole John 14 through John 17 passage. When He defines eternal life in John 17, 3, He says it's knowing to know the one true God and Jesus Christ is suddenly said. I believe it's the same exact word that you're talking about.

Speaker 4:
[54:39] Well, look it up while I finish the... Because we're not going to have time to go through all these because we're basically out of time. But I at least wanted you... We're going to have to do another podcast over this because we keep getting sidetracked. Because at the end of the day, this is so...

Speaker 5:
[54:54] At the end of the day, we have the rest of our lives to do.

Speaker 4:
[54:56] This is so fascinating and so encouraging. And at the end of this road, it feels so much more real than just words on a page. It's just understanding how they're using this, which is what I found amazing. But I wanted to go through the rest of them. First John 3.14 is... This is the knowledge that is the gut feeling, the intuitive knowledge. But you're certain of it, the fullness of knowledge. Where did I say? 3.14? Let me read that. We know... Oh, just look how awesome this message is. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. So there's an experience that you have loving your brothers, but you know that you will not die in those just moments of love. Isn't that instinctively encouraging? I mean, I'm telling you, it'll blow your circuits. First John 5.15, and if we know that he hears us. Now, this is the prayer, the absolute certainty. Not that you've ever experienced before. It starts making sense, this definition when you do this. Because it's like, okay, here you are living like the world, living a sinful life. All of a sudden, you hear the story of Jesus. You go all in, you surrender, you're a new creation. And then you start doing something that you have no concept of, which is having a conversation with an unseen being. But you know that he's listening.

Speaker 5:
[56:49] Oh, that's so good.

Speaker 4:
[56:50] So the last two are First John 5.19. We know that we are of God. In First John 5.20, we know that the Son of God has come.

Speaker 5:
[57:01] All right, we're going to pick it up there and keep going. What we know and what we don't know from a great contest. We'll see you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.