transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[00:27] The following is a production of Dirty Mo Media. You're the Dale Jr. Should I say it? It's Dale Jr. podcast, I gotta say it. Hey everybody, it's Dale Jr. back again for another episode of The Dale Jr. Download in the Arby's studio. Want to tell you about the Arby's new Meat in 3 Box. Get more meal for your money at Arby's. Arby's, we have the meats, we've got a great show for you today. Jimmy Fennig is coming in to tell us about his career. He was a crew chief in the Cup Series. We all may remember his days with Kurt Busch as a championship crew chief in 2004, Mark Martin, even as recently, Matt Kenseth, Carl Edwards. But way before then, he was working with guys like Bobby Allison and in the ASA ranks, he worked with Mark Martin and several other drivers. My father would go up to the ASA ranks and run, and I remember Jimmy being in the pits, working on cars. They had their own little world up there, their own little racing world up there. It was very, very competitive, very tough, not something that was going to be easy for dad, and it showed. We'd go up there, and dad would get his teeth kicked in, and Jimmy and those guys would come down here and bring their knowledge and their success and experience from their ASA racing and find similar success in the world of NASCAR inside the Cup garage. And I can't wait to talk to this guy. I'll be honest, I think throughout most of my career, I never said two words to this man in the garage. He was quiet. He was not a jokester. The only time he was smiling was when his car was winning races. Otherwise, he was all about his business. A little bit intimidating. So I'm looking forward to talking to him and telling him how much we respect him and appreciate him. Let's get him in the room and get this started. It's been a long time coming to get you on this show. You've had a lot of success in NASCAR and won a lot of races with a lot of different drivers. And your path to NASCAR was quite an interesting one. So I've been looking forward to this. I was around when dad was messing with that ASA stuff in the 80s and the late 80s. And I think that was kind of right around the same time that you were kind of tipping a toe in and out a cup before you eventually stayed here. And so I want to talk about that a little bit. But special interests or special projects on today's current car, we hear all the time how unique this car is comparable to what we raced for years, how challenging it is, how things have changed in terms of the role crew chiefs play and their jobs and job descriptions. You've certainly lived in all the different eras that this sport's experienced. What is it? What's enjoyable about the job you do today? What gets you fired up?

Speaker 3:
[03:56] Well, what I do today, it's challenging, you know, especially with this new car. It's always challenging to see with the rules they have, you know, in the sport we got nowadays, it's different. So you got to really look all over the place, you know. QC is a big part of our sport right now that's kind of overtaken everything. You know, the pieces coming in and out, they vary a little bit, so we kind of watch that pretty close. But, you know, you don't have much room to work, so you got to, you know, get the best pieces you can on your car every week.

Speaker 2:
[04:29] Yeah, I noticed that. You know, I have some opportunity as a broadcaster to learn and see a little bit behind some of the curtains. And, you know, when I was working at Hendrick, I only knew what we were doing. I really didn't know much else about outside of our building. But as a broadcaster, you kind of have had the chance to understand some of the challenges that the teams are faced with. And when we did put the car together to go run the Daytona 500 a couple of years ago, I was really surprised by the that I learned just what you mentioned, that all of the parts do have these very tiny, tiny nuances. And the team has to try to make sure that the best parts are on the car every week. And it might, it's just a little variance of shape or tolerance. And you're looking for hundreds of thousands, instead of big chunks of speed here and there, you're putting together all these tiny little advantages or things that you think would be advantages all over the race car with body parts or whatever. It's really fascinating to me that the teams have found a way to still influence performance, still have a role in how, what kind of race car they can build. And so you still feel like as an individual and you're able to make a difference.

Speaker 3:
[06:01] Yeah, I mean, to me, I like challenge, you know, and NASCAR put a challenge out there to build the best car every week for that. I don't know, you know, you got to look back in the past, too. Our cars detailed matter back then, too, you know, but nowadays with the talents they have, you got to really be really be close.

Speaker 2:
[06:25] Yeah. So you spent a large majority of your career working at Roush and what is now RFK. And we're going to dive into all that down the road. But what was the thing that introduced you to racing?

Speaker 3:
[06:43] Back in the day, when I was a kid, you know, out of high school, my father and grandfather, they raced race cars, you know, so kind of had it in my blood, if you could say that's what we did.

Speaker 2:
[06:55] Yeah. What kind of cars were they running?

Speaker 3:
[06:57] Old jalopies on dirt. But my grandpa, he worked for American Motors back in the day and he had a Rambler Rebel and he ran, I think USAC with it, you know, back in the day. But it was, you know, something I liked, something I enjoyed. And out of high school, I decided to start building the cars and go race on my local dirt track.

Speaker 2:
[07:16] Yeah. Did you have trouble, you know, staying focused in school with all that going on around you?

Speaker 3:
[07:22] No.

Speaker 2:
[07:23] In my family, it was difficult for a lot of us to want to go to school, want to get the grades kind of, you know, dad, he quit school in eighth grade to race cars in the backyard. He wanted to be in shop with, you know, with Ralph. So he got out of school as quick as he could. So you had, did your family instill the work ethic and your ability to stay in school? Like how, what kind of a student were you?

Speaker 3:
[07:48] Well, I got by, you know, I didn't go to college, you know, I just finished out high school, but really took the classes that would help me down the road, you know, like metalwork and stuff like that and reading. But otherwise, that's about where I stayed in high school.

Speaker 2:
[08:06] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[08:06] And then, yes, I was glad to get out, you know.

Speaker 2:
[08:10] So you built your own cars? Yeah, built my own cars.

Speaker 3:
[08:13] Yep. My first car was a 63 Ford Fastback, you know, raced the local dirt tracks up there in Wisconsin.

Speaker 2:
[08:21] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[08:21] And built that me and my brother, Jeffrey, we built it together.

Speaker 2:
[08:25] And then when you say built it, what does that consist of? You just stripped down a street legal car?

Speaker 3:
[08:31] Yeah, stripped it down, tried to gut it out, get it as light as possible back even back then. You know, weight was a big thing. Put our own roll cage in it. You know, I remember.

Speaker 2:
[08:40] Did it have a full cage from from stout to stout?

Speaker 3:
[08:42] Yeah. So and then, you know, went to stock our products, bought my first racing hub. I thought that was a big day, you know, back in the day there. I said, wow, look at this piece, you know. So but it was it was interesting.

Speaker 2:
[08:58] Yeah. You know, who were you racing against?

Speaker 3:
[09:00] Just local guys from town.

Speaker 2:
[09:02] You know, Friday, Saturday night, Saturday night.

Speaker 3:
[09:05] Hales Corners.

Speaker 2:
[09:06] What is where is that place at?

Speaker 3:
[09:07] That's it's a little bit west of Milwaukee. You know, where Milwaukee is just a little bit west Hales Corners. It was a famous well, not famous, but it was our local dirt track. You know, we had a lot of racetracks up there. You know, we could go race.

Speaker 2:
[09:22] Really?

Speaker 3:
[09:22] So but it was fun. It was enjoyable and it was challenging. You know, it was kind of how can I get this better? How can I do this better? And that's how I started.

Speaker 2:
[09:32] Yeah. What did you think about driving?

Speaker 3:
[09:34] Eh, not too good.

Speaker 2:
[09:36] Why?

Speaker 3:
[09:37] I don't know. I built them, went driving them, and I just couldn't feel the car good enough. You know what I mean? That no where the problems were. So I hung it up fast enough. You know, I did a sportsman series and then I did a late model series. And after the late model series, I just kind of gave it up. You know, I make the semi feature, never made features.

Speaker 2:
[09:58] Were you discouraged at this point about that? Or was it like, hey, you know, I love working on them. You obviously made a life as an incredible crew chief. So you found you early in your life, did you find joy in the work, in building the car, preparing the car? Did that motivate you as much as driving?

Speaker 3:
[10:22] Yeah. Working on the car. Once I got, I enjoyed it more because more you could, I wasn't a good driver, put it that way, but I could consider myself a good builder, a good thinker, innovator on stuff, you know, and that's where I think I shined when I was a kid.

Speaker 2:
[10:40] What were some of the things that were innovative at the time in terms of geometry? You know, some guys probably weren't doing a ton of EO stuff or thinking about, you know, camber gains and things like that, right?

Speaker 3:
[10:53] Yeah, back in the day, a lot of the parts were stock. I remember sitting back in the day, we used to just sit there and take a torch and cut our A-frames and shorten them up to get the camera where we want it. You know, that was back in the day. Didn't have tubular, we used stock stuff.

Speaker 2:
[11:07] And not everybody was probably sharp on exactly what they were trying to accomplish. Did you draw all this out on the floor? How did you know what you needed to do?

Speaker 3:
[11:17] You kind of think about it. You think about what's going on with the tire when you get in the corner, how much loads on it, how much it flexes and all that. And you just say, well, if I want that patch down, I want to make sure I've got it in the right direction.

Speaker 2:
[11:28] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[11:28] You know, and that was, you know, back in the day.

Speaker 2:
[11:31] Yeah. But did you, were y'all messing with bump steer and?

Speaker 3:
[11:34] No, not that. No.

Speaker 2:
[11:37] So, so all of that ingenuity and creativity is all self-taught, just trial and error.

Speaker 3:
[11:45] Trial and error. You know, we come up with, you know, as dirt tracks, as you know, that as the drier to get, the less grip you got. So we put a little weight jacker in the left rear corner with slots on it so we could load the left rear spring more. You know, that was our adjustment because we ran leaf springs, not coils, leaves. So we did stuff like that, you know, and just say, okay, how can we do this? So kind of like a reverse shackle, just had to go up and down in slots to spring.

Speaker 2:
[12:14] Man, yeah, pretty cool. You know, you got to drive in your own car and you went to work for a guy named Al Schill.

Speaker 3:
[12:20] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[12:23] As you and your brother, Jeffrey?

Speaker 3:
[12:25] Yeah, mainly just me. What it was is when I was building my cars, he owned a salvage yard. So we...

Speaker 2:
[12:33] You're going over there getting stuff?

Speaker 3:
[12:34] We'd go over there and become friends with him, got a relationship with him.

Speaker 2:
[12:38] He had a car?

Speaker 3:
[12:39] He did, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[12:40] Was he driving it?

Speaker 3:
[12:41] Late model, yeah. He used to drive modified years ago, then he went to late model. And so then I decided that he kind of took an interest in me and he says, hey, come work for me. So I went to work in a salvage yard in the winter and then worked in his shop on race cars during the summer.

Speaker 2:
[12:58] Really?

Speaker 3:
[12:59] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[12:59] What were you doing in salvage yard?

Speaker 3:
[13:01] Oh, I'd cut up cars, you know, cut more.

Speaker 2:
[13:04] Cousin needed something, you go back there and get it?

Speaker 3:
[13:06] Get it. You know, it was just, I was young.

Speaker 2:
[13:09] Yeah. So salvage yards are a thing of the past these days. You know, I used to, there was a salvage yard down the street from dad's place on highway three. And me and Kerry had run back in there all the time for ball joints and stuff for our street stock car. And, you know, if somebody came in and needed an alternator or whatever, the salvage yard guy, you'd run back there and pull it off a truck or car or whatever, you know, and that was like a, you know, and they were there were a lot of salvage yards around in our area. And I imagine that working in a salvage yard, no, no, every day was different. There was always something more interesting happening. And that seems like that would have been a fun place to be.

Speaker 3:
[13:53] Yeah, it was fun. I mean, you would see, you know, people coming in and getting these parts. We'd let them go up in the yard and pick some parts, you know. And then the interesting part, the owner, Al, he just, he bought a crusher, a car crusher. So we had a big forklift and...

Speaker 2:
[14:07] Throw cars in there. That'd be fun.

Speaker 3:
[14:09] Throw cars in there and watch them get crushed.

Speaker 2:
[14:11] Yeah, that'd be pretty neat. The one down the street from Dad's, some of our old race cars ended up in there. And I imagine they ended up going to get salvaged or recycled for the metal. But I wish I would have known well enough to not let them go to that. I could have them. To have them today would be pretty interesting. So you get an opportunity to... You're done driving and you're going to start working on Al's car. And y'all would have success winning the track championship. That was in 1971. So like all through the 70s, this is what you did?

Speaker 3:
[14:53] Yeah, just worked for Al. We raced back in Wisconsin. Back in that day, you can race seven days a week. We would race probably, I would say, five days a week.

Speaker 2:
[15:06] Did you pay attention to NASCAR at that time? Did y'all listen to the race? A little bit. A little bit, but... Because NASCAR really in that time is still very...

Speaker 3:
[15:16] Big.

Speaker 2:
[15:17] Very big, big, but not... You know, races weren't televised. And I wonder, I guess I wonder in Wisconsin, what of NASCAR were you hearing? And how aware were you of, you know, the David Pearsons and Richard Pettys of the world?

Speaker 3:
[15:35] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:36] That was a big deal?

Speaker 3:
[15:37] That was a big deal. You know, David Pearson.

Speaker 2:
[15:39] Did you want to? Did you know then that you might might be headed in that direction or?

Speaker 3:
[15:45] Not really.

Speaker 2:
[15:45] I wanted to make a living in racing.

Speaker 3:
[15:48] Wanted to make a living in racing because it was enjoyed. Yeah, it was enjoyable. And it was every week was a different challenge. You know, you had to go there and it was about winning, too. You know, you didn't want to go there and just race. So and Al was that was a very talented racecar driver. And he won a lot of races, you know. So and on asphalt and dirt. So we started on dirt and we progressed the asphalt, you know, and went up Slinger, Kakauna, you know, different places like that. And won races there and championships. So it was enjoyable.

Speaker 2:
[16:20] Were you the lead mechanic at that point?

Speaker 3:
[16:22] Yeah, I was the lead guy. You know, that was my baby. You know, just take care of the car maintenance, building, you know, stuff like that. But yeah, it was it was fun back then. Yeah, I mean, but it was a lot of work. Racing that many, you know, you race dirt one night, asphalt next, dirt, asphalt.

Speaker 2:
[16:38] Turning the car around every day.

Speaker 3:
[16:40] Turning the car around every day.

Speaker 2:
[16:41] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[16:41] Cleaning it, you know.

Speaker 2:
[16:43] Do you have much help?

Speaker 3:
[16:44] One person helped me, Ray Day. He used to help me. He was a kind of retired old guy. And we'd just go in Al's garage. And that garage is still there to this day with some of Al's cars right inside of it.

Speaker 2:
[16:56] Really?

Speaker 3:
[16:56] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:56] Oh, damn.

Speaker 3:
[16:57] So it's pretty cool.

Speaker 2:
[16:58] That's kind of neat. Is the salvage yard still there?

Speaker 3:
[17:00] Still there.

Speaker 2:
[17:00] Wow.

Speaker 3:
[17:01] So I think his daughter runs it now.

Speaker 2:
[17:03] Yeah. How about that? Hey, this is Dale Earnhardt Jr. And for all the latest Dale Jr. download gear, including the I'm Will Drink Some Beer t-shirt that we've been talking about here around the office, head over to shop.dirtymomedia.com for all the latest merch.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 2:
[17:52] So you did this all through the 70s. In the early 80s, you'd go work for a guy named Jerry Gunderman. Who is he?

Speaker 3:
[17:59] Jerry Gunderman owned a trucking company up there, and he loved racing, just loved it. You know, he was friends with Al Schill, you know, and all of us, we kind of hung out together.

Speaker 2:
[18:09] Was Al getting toward retirement or?

Speaker 3:
[18:11] No.

Speaker 2:
[18:11] What was the situation? Why would you, why would you leave with the?

Speaker 3:
[18:14] Well, I think Jerry come in and he wanted to do more bigger races. I can't say bigger races. He wanted to go arco racing, ASA racing, you know, and then eventually he fueled the car for Bobby. You know, so.

Speaker 2:
[18:28] Oh, Bobby Allison.

Speaker 3:
[18:29] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:30] And you, he told you this.

Speaker 3:
[18:32] Jerry.

Speaker 2:
[18:32] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[18:33] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:33] And you're like, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[18:34] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:35] So how did you tell Al?

Speaker 3:
[18:38] We're all friends back then, you know, and Al was out and just, Al, we're going to go work for Jerry. You know, we're going to go race a couple racetracks, you know, I don't know what you can say, Texas Motor Speedway. We raced, you know, different racetracks. So that's what we did. And that's, we left good friends and everything, you know, Al needed help, I'd help him. And that's how that ended up.

Speaker 2:
[19:01] Yeah. So you build a, it says here, you built a powerhouse short track team. So you work with Jerry in the early 80s, you went, ran some Arca stuff, Texas World. These are different racetracks than what you'd experienced racing with Al in the 70s around Wisconsin and so forth, Slinger and all those others that you mentioned. What was the, what was that like? I suppose going from working on a car that's got to go get around a half mile track every weekend, it's going to run dirt one night and asphalt the next and all these different racetracks to building and working on race cars that are running 170, 150 miles an hour around Texas World.

Speaker 3:
[19:46] I can't say it's a big jump, you know, but you have different types of cars and different races. So, and my goal every time I went was let's go to win, you know, no matter was Al, anybody, anyone of our drivers, you know, let's just prepare a car good enough that we can go out there and win with.

Speaker 2:
[20:05] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[20:06] So we got these bigger tracks in the competition levels getting a little bit, a little bit harder.

Speaker 2:
[20:11] Yeah. Who did you lean? Did you have folks that you leaned on in terms, when you're going to Texas World for the first time or going to some of these bigger tracks for the first time, who were some of the folks that you?

Speaker 3:
[20:21] Well, Bobby was a good one for Texas World because he drove that car out of Texas.

Speaker 2:
[20:26] How did you become friendly with Bobby?

Speaker 3:
[20:29] Well, that started back at, I don't know if you're familiar with Wayne Erickson, the owner, used to be the owner of Slinger Speedway. He wanted Bobby to become a racist racetrack. So, Benny Hurtell put all that stuff together and got Bobby up there. So, Bobby brought his own car, his own personal car. He had a ASA type car. And he went up there and ran and he wasn't, they missed the setup a little. But we ran there every week. So, Benny put that deal together to drive one of Jerry's cars or one of Al's cars up there. So, we went up there and Bobby just, he...

Speaker 2:
[21:07] Like this thing drives great?

Speaker 3:
[21:08] Yeah. And then ever since had Bobby and well, Benny put it together where Bobby was in them cars everywhere. We went to Rockford, Illinois, you know, stuff like that.

Speaker 2:
[21:18] Benny O'Tale was sort of a PR general manager type guy. Worked with Bobby, worked with my dad for years. And Mark Martin, you would know this just speaking to the viewers about Benny O'Tale. You're going to hear that name maybe once or twice more in the story. I would say when dad got involved in ASA, he bought a Dylan car and he ran it out of his shop down here. He also missed a set up most often. I went with him a few times to a couple races. I think I went to Wisconsin one night. You were there, I think, down in the pits working on Mark's car, or one of the Miller cars, not even Bobby. But the dad would go and run and struggle. I couldn't understand. I guess it was the first experience that I had, realizing that it just wasn't going to be that easy to go into that world, because it was certainly its own little world. ASA, you had Dick Trickle, Butch Miller, all these incredible, Seneca, all these incredible drivers. And y'all were, it was almost like its own little NASCAR Cup world up there, you know? And obviously, Alan Kwikie and others would come out of that type of racing. We would see it on TV, like down here in the early 80s. I would see it on TV through different T&N and different things. And yeah, when Dad would go up there, he would get his tail kicked. And I always wondered like, man, what is it that they know that we don't know? What do they do to their cars? Because Dad would take him, Tony Sr. And I think one time he went up there with Jake Elder to a race. Like we took...

Speaker 3:
[23:30] One time he went up with me.

Speaker 2:
[23:31] Yeah, really?

Speaker 3:
[23:32] Oh, yeah. I don't know if you know the story. So anyway, we're sitting there. Me and Mark are down south here. You know, we just started working. You know, I think this is, I don't know what year, 87. You know, and we're 87, 88 in that year. And your dad called Mark up and says, Mark, you know, come set my Dylan car up. Yeah. So Mark called me up one night. Me and Mark ended up over at his mother's house.

Speaker 2:
[23:55] Yes, it's shot back out back.

Speaker 3:
[23:57] Out back there. So we went in there and stronger and set it up for Milwaukee, for Milwaukee Mile.

Speaker 2:
[24:02] Really?

Speaker 3:
[24:03] You know, and that was, that was a good deal. You know, and then actually your dad even flew me up there in his plane with him. You know, so we flew up there. And I think he was leading the race and a lap car took him out.

Speaker 2:
[24:14] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[24:15] You know, but he was, he was doing good up there.

Speaker 2:
[24:18] You know, what was that car missing? When they tried to take it and go run it, they wouldn't, they couldn't, they wouldn't, they wouldn't run well at all. I mean, I remember this very, very vividly. I always was curious as to why dad couldn't, him, him. And like, their, their idea, you know, of, of, of how they would approach setting the car up, wasn't what was needed. And they, you know, they'd go up there and, and, and, but of course, I mean, super competitive. I just mentioned all the drivers and, you know, and there's tons of guys like you that have come out of that, the ASA ranks and super talented mechanics and crew chiefs and so forth. So it wasn't going to be easy for anybody to go up there and race and compete and do well. But just like you said, like Bobby took his car, didn't run all that great. Daryl Waltrip would try at a time or two moderate success. You know, what was it about ASA that made it so tough? And what was it about your techniques? Your literal techniques to setting the car up. When you went and set dad's car up in his shop, was the rear end not in it right? Was there theories around front GEO, just very basic in general, comparable to what you guys were trying to do?

Speaker 3:
[25:35] Yeah, I think back then, why they didn't run is because, like you said, the best of the best were up there, the Sennikers, the Mike Eddies, Ed Howells, and we lived and breathed that. We never came down here and, okay, I'm gonna set up a Cup car.

Speaker 2:
[25:52] The same way. And dad was always too, I think dad ran a lot of Bilstein shocks, and I don't know if that was a hot ticket at that particular time. He would be, you know how he was so loyal to certain brands, like Goodyear, right, when the entire wars came in. I ain't running Hoosiers. I'll go to Charlotte and run 30th all day with Dave Marcus in the back running my Goodyears. And he was, so he'd get a deal, like the Bilstein shock deal, and you guys were probably running something completely different. But yeah, I don't know. I always was surprised by, not surprised, I guess, but like impressed with how difficult it was for dad to go run and be competitive up in those races with the ASA guys back in the day. You've had that, so you're forging this relationship with Bobby, and that would be the catalyst to get you down into the Cup garage eventually. I do want to ask you, so you're working with, you're racing every now and then, Bobby's coming up there to run with you guys. While he's not there, who's driving these cars you're working on?

Speaker 3:
[27:05] Nobody was, you know, they were pretty well sitting. Well, I can't really say that. Once while we had Rusty Wallace run it, you know, Kayuga Canada, Rusty ran it up there. Bill Elliott drove it down here at Jeffco, Georgia, you know, stuff like that. Jerry would get, you know, a couple of races out of them people. And we were sponsored by...

Speaker 2:
[27:28] Were you racing as much as you wanted to? Were you racing less than with Al?

Speaker 3:
[27:32] Probably less, you know, but at the same... Is that all right? No, no, I love racing. I'm a racer. So, but, you know, at the same time, you know, we knew that Mark Martin was going to come back ASA racing for Jerry.

Speaker 2:
[27:46] You knew that?

Speaker 3:
[27:46] Yeah. So, and then we put that program together and move forward.

Speaker 2:
[27:51] So, Mark, I remember in 1981, I will just guess there was around 81, 82. I'd just moved into my dad's house at the lake. And me and Kelly were given custody of us. We were given custody to dad from mom one day, our long story. But so I'm in dad's lake house in the basement, and he had a TV down there, pool table, a couple of other things. And Mark Martin comes over. I don't know who Mark Martin is, but dad's, you know, I'm learning as I'm sitting around, they're talking, and Mark puts all these tapes in the VHS tape player, beta, probably back then it was a beta tape player. And we sat and watched Mark, a lot of his races, when he was driving the two, the orange and white two, beautiful, beautiful race car. And so Mark is like, here, watch this, it's me at Nashville. Here, watch, it's me at Wisconsin. Here's all the, and we're watching all these races, and dad's just sitting there watching them, and Mark's telling dad about ASA and how awesome it is. And this is around 80, 81. And then, you know, Mark would come run a race or two, of his own, with his own stuff, the buck stove or the, you know, he ran that Pontiac a couple of times. And we've, everybody's pretty aware of how that fell apart for Mark, and how Mark had to go home. Yeah. And Mark's talked about that, how he had all these deals, chassis deals, engine deals, and when he went home, he didn't have no deals anymore. Like he had to work, he had to grind it back, you know, grind from the bottom again. And how he built that Ford at Dillon's, that Miller Ford and Dillon's to go compete again. And that's, I'm assuming, when you guys, around the same time, you guys would get back together. So Mark is coming back. He's, things didn't work out with him at NASCAR, and he's going to go home. And it was, did you know Mark all that well in the, in the late 70s or not really?

Speaker 3:
[30:00] Not really that well, no.

Speaker 2:
[30:01] Yeah, so you wouldn't, were you aware of this, you know, this sort of punch in the gut that he would, he would describe it as one of the most difficult parts of his life when he came up, came down here to race, it didn't work out. He thought it was going to work out. Like, why wouldn't it work out? And it didn't. When you got, when you and him teamed up, you know, I imagine he was desperate to get, you know, to stabilize his racing career and kind of get himself back on track. Was that, what was his demeanor? What was working with Mark like?

Speaker 3:
[30:37] It was great, you know. I mean, we came down and Jerry Gundeman, he went and drove for Jerry Gundeman. Miller was our sponsor, you know. Thank Bobby and Benny for putting all that stuff together. And from there on there, every day, Jerry had a shop day every day. Mark was there at seven o'clock with us, working on these race cars. And he was there to load them and get in the hauler and drive them to the racetrack, you know. So he was devoted to go win, you know. So it was a real good relationship, you know, because we both were striving to win. We do anything to them cars, you know. I'll never forget, we were running Michigan for the first time, Speedway.

Speaker 2:
[31:16] Yeah, with an ASA car. With an ASA, fiberglass body, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[31:19] Fiberglass body, that was...

Speaker 2:
[31:20] Always amazed me. Y'all went to Michigan to do that.

Speaker 3:
[31:22] Yeah. And believe it or not, it was a five star body and they had rules. You couldn't change your car. Well, because they thought everything, you know, was stock from five star. Well, my brother was good at fiberglass. So what we did was cut the car up. And what do we do in speedway racing? Narrow them up. So that exactly what we did for Michigan. And we blew a couple of tires and the Miller people were there. So they got kind of discouraged, we were like two laps down and they left, went home. And then they were at the next day that we won the race, you know, come from two laps down.

Speaker 2:
[31:54] Yeah, no kidding.

Speaker 3:
[31:56] So, but I mean, it was, there's so much challenging stuff you could do back then, you know.

Speaker 2:
[32:03] Creativity.

Speaker 3:
[32:03] Creativity. You know, that's the same, because back then ASA was pretty strict on their rules, you know, but they couldn't police everything, you know. And as a racer, you're going to keep challenging them.

Speaker 2:
[32:14] That's right.

Speaker 3:
[32:14] That's your job, you know. I'll never forget the day we were in Anderson, Indiana, and we qualified, I think, on the pole. And after you got done qualifying, you park in the middle and you back your car up like this. We ended up backing up to Bob Seneca, and everybody looks, and our spoiler was probably about an inch taller than his. So anyway, you know, but nothing was said, but we had to calm it down a little bit. But that way, they were challenging us too, you know. We're not the only people that were challenged. It was great racing, great racing. And Mark wanted to get back and be part of that.

Speaker 2:
[32:51] Yeah. So y'all had a lot of success and won the Winchester 400. Y'all would run some Cup races together. Was this the Black Ford, or what car was this?

Speaker 3:
[33:02] This was a Black...

Speaker 2:
[33:03] O2.

Speaker 3:
[33:04] Yeah, O2, orange numbers, O2, black car.

Speaker 2:
[33:07] Beautiful car.

Speaker 3:
[33:08] We went...

Speaker 2:
[33:09] Hauled ass. Like, it was fast.

Speaker 3:
[33:12] We went to Daytona with that car. It was a banjo car. Went to Daytona, narrowed everything up. Real nice. Went to Daytona. I forgot how we did, but it's done all right, you know. And then the next time we said, well, let's go to Riverside with it. Oh. So now we wind it back out. Because we only had one car, you know. So Jerry sat there and we put in the truck and trailer and hauled it all the way out to Riverside and went out there and was running good. I don't know what happened. But the best part was when it was a two-tone blue car, Jerry's trucking cars. And we went to Atlanta with it, the last race at Atlanta. Sat on the outside front row, you know. And then Robert Yates was building our motors, you know. Awesome power. Awesome. And I guess Cale gave him a little bit of, Cale Yarbrough gave him a little bit of hell, how come I didn't get that motor? So anyway, that was sort of three races we ran. It was a learning curve, you know, because it's no different than we're going into their ballfield and try racing with them, you know.

Speaker 2:
[34:14] But it was, it had to have been great for Mark to kind of come back and get an opportunity to open the door again to possible Cup career. Because I mean, there was, there was a, there, hard for people to believe that there was a moment where Mark's Cup career was absolutely in doubt in those early 80s. You, I want to step back before, before this all happened. You were commenced by Bobby Allison to take a job at Dygart in 1984. You came down here. Bobby's relationship with the team was deteriorating and he advised you to go back home. And I have to imagine that this relationship with Bobby Allison was one on trust and respect for him to come to you and go, he wanted you down here. And then when the situation wasn't what he thought it should be, and it wasn't going to be good for all of y'all, he sort of, it kind of tipped you off, right? To, hey man, might want to get out of here, go back, and y'all would eventually, you know, reunite. So talk about that. Talk about the relationship with Bobby, the trust. For him to come to you and say, hey man, this isn't working out, and this is about to implode, I'd get out of the way. I'd go take care of yourself and go get where you need to be.

Speaker 3:
[35:43] Yeah, that worked out, you know, what really, what happened there, like you said, Bobby and the Gardner's were falling out at the time, little bit of falling out. And at that time, Robert Gates and Gary Nelson were running the place. And they came up to me with a five-year contract. And I says to Bobby, I says, well, they want a five-year contract, Bobby, what do you want me to do? You know, and Bobby says, go home. He says, go back to Wisconsin. He says, and I'll call you when I'm ready again. You know, I says, okay, Bobby, you know, I appreciate what you've done. And I went back.

Speaker 2:
[36:17] No questions.

Speaker 3:
[36:17] No question. No, I mean, I respected that man.

Speaker 2:
[36:20] You're a guy that's gotten down here, you've got a five-year road map in front of you. How do you not take that? A lot of people would have.

Speaker 3:
[36:28] No, because I had the respect for Bobby Allison. And if Bobby Allison was getting along with these owners for some reason, You know, you didn't need to be there. Why did I need to be there? Because Bobby brought me down there, you know. So if Bobby left and I'm sitting there and, well, this was Bobby's guy, maybe ship him out of here too. So I didn't, we all left in good terms, you know. And I got a trailer, put all my furniture, and me and my wife went back up to Milwaukee.

Speaker 2:
[36:53] And you went up there and that would be the opportunity you'd have to work. Jerry takes you right back, there's like, come on, we got this deal, we're going to go some race with Mark.

Speaker 3:
[37:01] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:03] So that went really well. You ended up finishing 11th at Dover in one of those Cup races with Mark. But you would return to full-time Cup racing with Bobby as the crew chief in 87. So, two years with Mark, racing.

Speaker 3:
[37:23] ASA racing. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:24] Yep. Two years back home. And then Bobby calls you.

Speaker 3:
[37:28] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:28] And says, hey, I told you I'd call you here. Here we are. I got a deal for you. We're going to go crew chief.

Speaker 3:
[37:35] He found a home at Stavola Brothers. And Billy and Mickey were super nice people. And Bobby called me up and he says, Jimmy, come on back down. You know, I want you as my crew chief. And I think this was the fall of 86. And I says, OK, no problem.

Speaker 2:
[37:52] So what did you tell Mark? What did you tell Mark?

Speaker 3:
[37:56] Well, at that point, I think Mark was looking to.

Speaker 2:
[37:58] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[37:58] You know, and then Mark, when I talked to Mark about it and Jerry, they says, do not turn that offer down.

Speaker 2:
[38:04] Sure.

Speaker 3:
[38:04] You've got to go.

Speaker 2:
[38:05] OK.

Speaker 3:
[38:06] You know, so I got blessings from Mark and Jerry. So and then fortunately enough, Jack picked Mark up right after that. And everything kind of worked out the same, or maybe he was Xfinity Racing before that. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:19] Mark would go run that 31.

Speaker 3:
[38:21] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:21] That red and white 31 Ford for a couple of years.

Speaker 3:
[38:24] But that's how it did. I had so much trust in Bobby, you know. So I went down there for, true story, I went down there for an interview for Stavola Brothers, and I got off the airplane because they flew me down there. I said, wow, this is big, you know, get the flag commercial. So I walked down the runway. This is before all the strict rules at the airport. I walked down the runway, and who's standing there waiting for me at the gate? Bobby Allison.

Speaker 2:
[38:47] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[38:48] I said, if this man sits there, wants to be out here to do that for me, I'll do anything for him. So and that's how that turned out.

Speaker 2:
[38:59] So, you and Bobby would work together, you as the crew chief at Stavola Brothers. You also ran some more... Did you and Bobby go back up north and run any ASA stuff?

Speaker 3:
[39:11] Jerry would still have a car there. Bobby, I would get in the airplane with Bobby when they put a car together.

Speaker 2:
[39:17] Bobby raced all the time.

Speaker 3:
[39:19] Oh, my God. In fact, I remember now, we went up to Oswego, New York. Me, the engine builder, and Bobby, Keith Almond, we all went up to Oswego, New York to run an ASA show.

Speaker 2:
[39:30] Yeah. I mean, Bobby is probably, I don't know, 45, 50 years old at this point, but he would be... I remember when he got hurt at Pocono, dad would fill in for a few of the obligations that he was committed to, right, to run these races on a Friday night. He was supposed to be at this racetrack to run some car on a Saturday in the neighborhood of wherever the Cup race was in the country at that point. But Bobby was racing. If the Cup, Bobby would often book a race in the area within somewhere of that Cup race on a Friday or Saturday night at a local track, right, go inside Autographs, run a car, drive somebody else's car. Literally almost every week. I mean, the guy was like Kyle Larson is today, right? A lot of people don't really know or recall or remember that about Bobby. But I mean, all the way into his late 40s, this man would race every night of the week if he could. You won the Daytona 500 together in 1988. And I don't know how you had that Buick hauling at all that much ass because the Buick wasn't a, the nose of the Buick wasn't known. It was not known for its super speedway prowess. But you know, it was an amazing car. You know, and talk about what it feels like as a crew chief to build a car like that. Because, you know, guys like, you know, Rainier would have a car like that with Buddy Baker in around 79, 80, called the Grey Ghost. Robert Yates built a few cars like that for Dale Jarrett. And you know, he had a little string of about three or four years at Daytona. They just weren't going to beat the blue car. And so and Bill Elliott, you know, they had their little string in the mid 80s as well. But that Buick, nobody was worried about the Buicks.

Speaker 3:
[41:26] No, nobody. Not Dan.

Speaker 2:
[41:28] Yeah. But y'all built the best, y'all had the best car there that weekend. I mean, Davy and Robert's car, the 28, which was lights out back then, couldn't pass you. What does it feel like when you think about that car and what it was like to put that thing together?

Speaker 3:
[41:43] Everything was pretty special. Well, everything lit up back then. You could test whenever you want to go test. So what we did with that car, we went to Talladega and we tested like three days, messing with the nose, messing with this, messing with that. Bobby was right there doing every day. He was in that thing. And he would participate in some of the stuff, because Bobby was very sharp on race cars. So anyway, we spent three days there testing. And then, I got to give a lot of credit to Keith Almond for the horsepower he brought to the racetrack. So it was a combination of everybody, and it's the little stuff. That's why I keep saying it's the little stuff to make the big difference, you know.

Speaker 2:
[42:28] You stack a bunch of those little things together.

Speaker 3:
[42:29] Yep, yep. And here's a tent there, here's a tent there. You know, so that's how that developed.

Speaker 2:
[42:35] Yeah. Standing in Victor Lane is the champion of the Daytona 500. Not many people get to experience what that feels like. I know you go on and win plenty of races in your Cup career as a crew chief, even a championship with Kurt Busch. But I always tell people, like, what... I don't know of anything that matches what it feels like the moment the car crosses the finish line in the Daytona 500 and you know that you've won that one, because it's such an elusive race, at least it has been in my family. But so maybe I feel a unique way about it. But in terms of just sheer joy in a specific moment of time, when the Daytona 500 is as good as it's ever gotten for me. What was that like for you when that car pulls into Victor Lane with Bobby behind the wheel?

Speaker 3:
[43:29] No, it was... you can't believe it. It's just stunning. You know what I'm saying? You just say, well, wow, we just did this, you know? So I thought it was, you know, for the first time doing it, I mean, we won the firecracker the year before with Bobby. But that one there, the Daytona 500, and that's the biggest wonder is. And to go ahead and win, that was unbelievable.

Speaker 2:
[43:52] You're down there for 14 days. Yeah. And you talked about the testing. So I mean, all these things have to go right.

Speaker 3:
[43:58] And then I got to sit there. I got to give Bobby credit. You know, Bobby was a wheel man. And he come in the last, I'll never forget this last pit stop. Come in, let's do four tires, and Jimmy knocked that spoiler down 10 degrees. Really? Yeah. So we're sitting there with that back then, 10 degrees of spoiler was laid back flat.

Speaker 2:
[44:16] Holy crap.

Speaker 3:
[44:17] He got in the car, just, you know. But I mean, that's Bobby knowing what that was a good part about it. You know, kind of like your dad knows what he needs.

Speaker 2:
[44:25] Back then, you'll see pictures of these cars sitting on pit road after qualifying. The drivers would kneel down beside them. And then there was a little window of time when NASCAR didn't regulate the angle of the rear spoiler. They would eventually come in with a 20 degree rule. They would become a 40 degree rule, right? 45 and so forth. But it was a time in the mid 80s where you could literally have that thing flat as you want. And what was it like? I mean, I imagine you didn't think much of it because the driver would go out there and drive it. But to lay a spoiler down flat today would be quite a thing. Quite a crazy thought. But back then, how did you get the car to handle? Say if you were going to take the rear spoiler off of a car today, like how do you get the thing to stick?

Speaker 3:
[45:24] Well, you weren't going to get it to stick with the spoiler off. But I mean, Bobby knew what he had. It wasn't, we were maybe running 25 degrees and he said to put it down to 10. So when you get back to that, back that far on the spoiler, the difference wasn't that much. But it was, I mean, it was the right call as long as he could handle it. And he did, you know.

Speaker 2:
[45:47] Yeah, unbelievable. I've never, I always wondered in my mind, like what those cars felt like, what they drove like, what driving a car with 10 degrees of spoiler felt like going down the back straight away as RPM's rise and you're thinking about how to get it into the corner and drive it through there as fast as you can. So you worked with Bobby's, you worked with Bobby until he was injured. That was a very difficult day. Dad and Bobby were close. I was young, only about 13 at the time, but that was a big moment in a lot of our lives, and it had a huge effect on my dad. I can imagine that, you know, is that whole day, is that whole experience a blur for you? Is there, is there, you know, because I, you know, when you look at pictures of the car, you can hardly believe that Bobby could survive it.

Speaker 3:
[46:54] Yeah. You know, it was a it was a bad day. You know, I mean, I, in fact, tell you a little story. I saved that car. I put it on the roof of Stavola Brothers and put it away with a cover on it so nobody could see it, you know, not on the roof outside inside. So just in case Bobby wanted to see it, you know, when he got better. You know, but after that happened and to see him like that, I says, wow, you know, this guy done all these things.

Speaker 2:
[47:22] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[47:23] Unbelievable thing for me, for racing, for NASCAR. You know, you just couldn't believe it, you know, and then, yeah, yeah, I know your dad had a good relationship with him.

Speaker 2:
[47:35] Bobby's road back to just a decent quality of life was a very long one. You had to go, you carried on, you know, with the race team. The race team had to carry on. There's all kinds of employees, livelihoods at stake. How challenging was that for you? You know, I mean, I don't know, you know, when these type of things happen in our lives, we're not sure what we're, where we're supposed to be or what we're supposed to do or what we want to do, right? But I think we go back to the racetrack because that's, A, that's something that can take our mind off of the pain or whatever remorse or sadness we're going through. But it's kind of where we're, I couldn't imagine, I couldn't imagine being anywhere else.

Speaker 3:
[48:24] Yeah, I mean, that's the best therapy there is, if you want to call it therapy, you know, that's what I call it. So you go out there and by the way, that's what Bobby would have wanted. And by the way, Bobby wants results too, even though he's laying in a hospital bed, you know. So I kind of put that in perspective and say, okay, guys, Bobby's gonna, he's gonna come through. Let's go, let's go to work in Windows for him, you know. So, and I had a lot of good team members there that, you know, that worked for me, that stayed with me and went after it.

Speaker 2:
[48:54] Yeah, got to work with Mike Alexander.

Speaker 3:
[48:57] Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:
[48:58] Who's a talent. He'd been kind of grinding through opportunities in the Cup level in the 80s, with Dave Marcus and a couple of different teams, but never really could land a great opportunity. But this was a good opportunity for him. What was the potential for Mike? He would end up having some injuries of his own, some things that would kind of slow down and sideline his career. Where was the height for him? What could he have become, given the chance?

Speaker 3:
[49:26] Yeah, Mike was a super, super nice guy, very talented. People don't realize the talented Mike was, you know. And when we put him in the car and we ran that year, I think he finished third at Atlanta. We had a lot of top tens, you know, not a win. But there was, you could see we could get there. Yes. And Mike wanted to get there, you know. Unfortunately, as everything else, he goes to Pensacola on the snowball and crashes. And now he's got a brain injury. You know, but as far as his talent, you know, I would I would consider him as good as Mark Martin to this day.

Speaker 2:
[50:06] Really?

Speaker 3:
[50:06] Well, right there with him.

Speaker 2:
[50:07] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[50:08] Because when we were racing ASA, he was racing all pro down south.

Speaker 2:
[50:12] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[50:12] And those two were probably the best.

Speaker 2:
[50:14] You know, I'm glad you said that because I don't think a lot of people would recognize the name Mike Alexander. There's a lot of people that would. But his he's kind of I don't I don't want to use the phrase what if. But there was real potential, real talent there. And did when he has the injury, I mean, head injuries back then weren't as studied as they are today. Or did you write, did you realize right away that that that his future driving with you guys was was was over? Over.

Speaker 3:
[50:51] Not really, because, you know, after that winter, you know, he come up to the shop, we talk, you know, I see an improvement. I could see a little difference in the speech, you know, but he says, I'm going to be all right. I'm going to be all right, you know, so you got to take his word, you know. And next thing I know, no, it's not going to make it. You know, so then he realized he wasn't going to make it either, you know.

Speaker 2:
[51:13] He would eventually find himself back behind the wheel of a race car. And I mean, I think even as recent as four or five years ago, he's running a car over at Nashville or something, doing something, having some fun. So he got to continue to drive race cars, just not at the Cup level. This would give you guys the opportunity to work with Dick Trickle, the 55-year-old rookie. You knew Dick really well from the ASA days. Dick was celebrated. Like him coming into the Cup Series, I know he'd had opportunities in the 70s and some one-offs here and there and some different things, but for whatever reason and maybe his own choosing, he was dominant up north in the ASA ranks, but he was presented with this opportunity to come down and drive your car. How did that come together? Why did it trickle?

Speaker 3:
[52:06] Well, because I knew him from back then and then we had a meeting about it with the Stavola Brothers, and I says, well, why don't we give Dick a call? Because I knew how good Dick was. You don't win all those races by not being good. So we gave him a call, and he accepted the offer to come down and drive the car. I think our first race was Rockingham, and I'll never forget this one because old Dick was from the North, and Dick always wore cowboy boots. So he got there and I had a set of driving shoes for him, because I know in theory these cars are hotter than the NASCAR cars. I said, Dick, you're going to need to take these boots off and put these Simpson shoes on. And he said, no, I'm going to be all right. I'm going to be all right. And I said to him, OK. So I think halfway during the race, hey, I had a yell and he says, I need them shoes. So I said, OK, four tires and a set of shoes, guys.

Speaker 2:
[53:07] Did he have a cigarette lighter in your car?

Speaker 3:
[53:09] Oh, yeah, he put it in there.

Speaker 2:
[53:10] He did.

Speaker 3:
[53:11] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[53:12] Now, let me ask you this. When he comes in the shop and he's putting the cigarette lighter in the car, what is it? What is what are you guys thinking? I'm sure you probably knew it was coming.

Speaker 3:
[53:20] He knew it was coming because that's all he did. You know, I mean, it's coffee and cigarettes, you know.

Speaker 2:
[53:24] So but you have to explain it to the other boys on the shop. Yeah, I just bear with it.

Speaker 3:
[53:29] You know, this is him, you know. And then I'll never forget to say that the guys kind of got mad when we were at Dover running and yellow flag comes out and Dover pit road, you know, it's hard to get to. And evidently, he committed to admitted this, you know, to me. But on the yellow flag coming in the pits, he crashed in the pit road. I said, what were you doing? You know, lighting up a cigarette, you know, because he missed it under yellow. Yeah. You know, I couldn't believe it. I said, OK, Dick.

Speaker 2:
[54:00] He wouldn't admit it or he did?

Speaker 3:
[54:01] He didn't admit it.

Speaker 2:
[54:02] Yeah. You think that's what happened?

Speaker 3:
[54:04] Oh, yeah, because he was too quiet.

Speaker 2:
[54:05] Yes. Too quiet.

Speaker 3:
[54:06] And Dick was a super person, you know.

Speaker 2:
[54:09] I got to know him better. I got really lucky to get to know him better. When he goes to drive for Kale into 66, Trapartic Car, I was friends with the crew chief's son. I'd be up in the hauler lounge with my buddy. As soon as I got to the racetrack, I'd go looking for my friends, Brad Means, Jimmy's son. We'd go up in there. Dick would come up in the lounge. When he'd get to the track, he'd come up in there and throw his briefcase down. In his briefcase, he'd have a pair of underwear and some Reese Cups and a pack of cigarettes or a carton of cigarettes. There's nothing else in it. I'm like, he's going to open up his briefcase, there'll be notes and money and this and that. There's none of that. But, and he was always so nice, like we're 15, 14-year-old punk kids doing, we're not working, we're not showing any initiative, we're just in the way. And he was never like, get out of here, what are y'all doing in here? He was just, as soon as he'd come in there, he'd start talking to you, asking you questions. And I always thought that was awesome. Because, you know, he looked like he was a very grizzly old, you know, tough, you know, guy who's seen it and done it all. Didn't have no time for no, didn't have no patience for no punk kids running around. But, and then later in life, he would come to a couple of our charity events and stuff and always super, super cool. You would go work with Bobby Allison's team. Bobby would start his own team.

Speaker 3:
[55:49] Bobby started his own team, yep.

Speaker 2:
[55:51] That was something I thought was interesting, and I didn't recall that part of your career, because you've been around this deal a long time, right? You come to the Cup stuff in the 80s. A lot of us people in the industry and fans of the industry absolutely know all the things you did with Mark and Kurt and all the things that would happen. There's a sort of space and time where there's, you know, you spent seven years, six years working on Bobby's team. When Bobby is now, you know, healed as much as he possibly can be, he's now going to race cars again, but he's going to have a race team, and he's going to try his ass off to make sure that it's functioning, and there were some good years when that car had real speed, but it had to have been a challenge. Putting deals, you know, he had a lot of deals that come together. The Ray Bessis deal seemed to be a decent one. At least the car had really relatively solid speed in them during that period of time. But there was also a lot of challenges, you know. You had a lot of different drivers. I'm going to list Mike Alexander, Jeff Purvis, Hut Stricklin, Spencer, Chuck Bound, Tim Steele, Derek Cope, some interesting names.

Speaker 3:
[57:13] Yeah, a lot of different drivers, you know. It was challenging. In fact, we had to build the team up. We had to start the team, put it that way. And Bobby's brother-in-law, Tom Kincaid, was a lawyer. And he more or less started the deal up, you know. And we actually rented space by Norman Degree and built cars. We started there building race cars for the Cup program, you know. And then finally, Frank Plesinger and Nathan Sims.

Speaker 2:
[57:44] Nathan, yeah, I know Nathan.

Speaker 3:
[57:45] Nathan built that building that Bobby's in.

Speaker 2:
[57:47] Yep.

Speaker 3:
[57:48] And he built your dad's too.

Speaker 2:
[57:50] Yeah, he would build dad's building.

Speaker 3:
[57:51] But they were all good friends of Bobby's and wanted to see something happen for Bobby, you know. So we put it all together. Me and Keith Allman. Keith Allman was a big part of, you know, Bobby Allison Motorsports. He was a head engine builder. And we laid out the building with Nathan, showed him where we wanted stuff, how we want the flow, everything else. And Nathan put it all together and started racing then. And I think Hut Stricklin was our first driver that we had in the car and ran with Hut for a few years. And things didn't really work out or I don't know what happened there. But we went and moved on to a few other drivers. And at times it was kind of a struggle because financially you got to have sponsorship to run good, to get the right parts, the right people to this day and age. And we were not really struggling, but we were not like Rick Hendricks, you know, stuff like that. Financially it was tough. But we made it work, you know, I mean, the guys, everybody there worked hard. I mean, get them on one race, we have two sets of brake calipers. We rebuild them, get them on the car for the next race, you know, stuff like that. But it was challenging, it was fun, it was true, we were trying to win. And I always told the guys, let's go this week and win this race, no matter what driver was in that car. That was my motto. I don't care what steering wheel or what, let's go win this race. This is what we're here to do. And sometimes we're good, you know, Spencer, he was good. You know, he does, all of them were good. You know, we had some good runs, bad runs, but it was good. And we tried building up the best we could, you know, the funny, not the funny part, but it's some people all know on of, we're in Martinsville testing. Back then we could test a lot, you know. So we took Hut Stricklin up there testing with Ronnie Hopkins. We were doing some acrimon stuff, you know, and Bobby was up there. And next thing I seen, I was standing next to Bobby, and I said, what do you think, Bobby? He takes his wallet out of his back pocket, puts it in toolbox and says, what? Bobby jumped in.

Speaker 2:
[59:59] No kidding.

Speaker 3:
[60:00] Yeah, after he was hurt.

Speaker 2:
[60:01] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[60:01] And he went around there, I don't know how many times, you know, he got within a couple of tenths of Hut. You know what I mean? But I was, I was...

Speaker 2:
[60:08] I never heard that.

Speaker 3:
[60:09] Never heard. No, a lot of people don't know that one. You know, but, you know, that's his desire to get back in there. And he got back in there and he ran, ran, ran, you know, and I says, man, what a feeling that is.

Speaker 2:
[60:21] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[60:21] To watch that man get back in the race car. Even though it wasn't the smartest move on my part by letting him in, but he owned the company, he owns the cars. Bobby knew he's going to do what he's going to do. But that was, that was a good story to everybody know that.

Speaker 2:
[60:34] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[60:35] He still had to drive back then.

Speaker 2:
[60:37] I was going to ask you, what was it like? You know, is Bobby the owner, right? Now he's out of the car. And I think as owners, drivers have less patience, right? But Bobby, I mean, obviously, knows the challenges y'all were up against as the owner of the team. You know, what, given the right opportunity, you know, what do you think that deal could have turned into?

Speaker 3:
[61:04] I think pretty good. You know, because we had the facility was awesome. You know, everything was flowed out, right? We had good people building cars. Steve Levitt come over there and help build the cars. You know, Stevie did. And we were hung good bodies, you know, probably needed some more factory support, you know, as far as wind tunnels and stuff like that. But otherwise, it all depends what you get, you know, and how you use it. So, but unfortunately, you stayed there to the very end, to the very end. And Bobby, you know, kind of took down there. We're don't have enough money anymore. And so we part of ways.

Speaker 2:
[61:40] Yeah. The, the, that would present the opportunity to put you where you are today.

Speaker 3:
[61:46] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[61:47] Yeah, that was quite a 1997. You go work for Roush Racing.

Speaker 3:
[61:51] Yeah. It was the fall of 96, Rockingham. And I had my interview with Jack in Mark's, Mark's hauler. So Jack interviewed me because Mark pushed it. Mark wanted Mark wanted a change or something. And he wanted me down there to help him, you know, run to run his program. So and Steve did an awesome job, Steve Mille, you know, putting everything together, did an awesome job. And Mark just wanted a different change or a different look at stuff. So I interviewed with Jack and that went OK. You know, I just, Jack's a different person. Oh, yeah, he is, you know, and I sit there with Jack. I says, OK, you know, I didn't have a job then. You know, I was out of work for a couple of weeks or whatever. So I said, OK, I'll take it, you know. And then it was up in Liberty then. So fall of 96 and all of 97, I drive back and forth from Liberty to, I used to live by the Speedway there. And yeah, it's hour 45 one way. But anyway, did that. And then that was a great opportunity that Jack gave me.

Speaker 2:
[63:02] There are not many people, if any, in the industry today that would drive an hour 45 minutes one way for a job.

Speaker 3:
[63:09] Yeah. Not nowadays. Things have changed. They have changed, so. But that's the drive you had to have back then.

Speaker 2:
[63:18] You'd work with Mark, you get four wins in 97. And you'd have this really solid, you know, several years. Runner-up in points, seven wins in 98. Twice in 99. Third in points. You'd have your final win together in 2000. And then you would get moved to Kirchkar in 2002. Why make the change?

Speaker 3:
[63:46] Well, we were doing good, you know. I mean, 98 was our best year, I think, you know, as far as wins and finishes. But throughout the rest of the years, you know, we'd keep, I'd keep working on an arrow, working, you know, setups, trying to get it better and better and better. But we weren't moving the needle, if that makes sense. So what they, Mark wanted to do, he probably figured, well, let's make a change here and see if we can spark a new life here, you know, and see what the next crew chief can do. No different than when Steve, I replaced Steve Meehl, you know. Mark wanted a change here, so Mark wanted this change. And fortunately, I didn't know what was going to play out on, but Jeff Burton kind of says, hey, why don't you put Jimmy with Kurt?

Speaker 2:
[64:31] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[64:32] And I-

Speaker 2:
[64:34] Kurt was relatively, I mean, he was in like his, he just moved into the Cubs series, right?

Speaker 3:
[64:40] Yeah, he just moved in, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[64:41] So you got to, what were your thoughts about, you know, going to, you had been with veterans your entire life, for the most part, right? Even Dick Trickel, when his first career season in the Cup Series was in his 50s. But, you know, you got a young guy, Kurt, and we would all, we'll all, you know, Kurt's a Hall of Famer, we all would learn what Kurt would become and what kind of driver he was. But coming in to deal with a rookie driver, where you, I guess you're kind of like, yeah, let's go for it.

Speaker 3:
[65:09] Yeah, I mean, the thing about Kurt, I seen the speed he'd get out of a race car, you know. And I seen that probably the year before I did a full time for him. And he kind of missed the show at Atlanta because he didn't, you know, goofed up qualifying and then he got mad, went home. I says, okay, now what am I dealing with? You know, for the next year. But I admired what he got out of a race car for speed, you know. And then when I started working with him, talking with him and meeting them, you know, because previous that I know we worked for Jack, but we didn't really talk to each other. Yeah, like we did when we worked full time together, you know. So it was it was good. And I respected what his visions were, where he went to go and how fast he went to get there. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[65:57] Were you you were with him when he was running into Spencer and having all this going on? What was your advice to him during that period of time? You know, were you did you know he. Kurt's his own man, right? Can make his own choices. But where were what kind of a were you literally just a crew chief? I'm going to work on the car. I'm going to tell you what we're going to do with the race car and what the plan is for the weekend. Or were you also with this young guy who's a little misguided at times? Were you giving advice?

Speaker 3:
[66:29] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[66:29] Telling him, hey dude, get your together.

Speaker 3:
[66:32] I would try helping him out personally because his he would blow up on everything. You know, and then I would have to say, you got to calm down. You know, it's going to get better. This ain't a bad day. You know, let's keep working on it. In fact, me and him both went to see a sports psychologist. You know, I even went with him. You know, yeah. And but, you know, he started listening. But, you know, Kurt was Kurt. You know, I'd never forget the Tona. I think Tona was 500 or whatever. I had to key him off the radio because he was swearing too much. And David Hoots kept putting his laps down when sitting on pit road. You know, so I just keyed the radio so nobody could hear him. You know, I know he got mad at me for that. But hey, this is reality.

Speaker 2:
[67:14] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[67:15] So but he turned out. He, Kurt's a pleasant person once you get to know him. You know what I mean? And there's no pressure on him.

Speaker 2:
[67:22] Yeah. You know, so yeah, I mean, I think the Kurt we know today is not the same guy that you were working with in 2002. They have a lot of success with him and eventually win a championship. You know, I everybody remembers the wheel coming off at just the right time and Kurt making an incredible move to get to Pit Road in a moment saving the day. You know, y'all had a lot of speed that year and Kurt and you did everything you needed to do to get the points needed to win that championship.

Speaker 3:
[67:58] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[67:58] And so, you know, obviously you've had so much success over your life. You got to do all these great things with Bobby and Mark and, and, you know, built Bobby's race team from the ground up. Where does winning that title with Kurt rank in all the things that you've been able to accomplish?

Speaker 3:
[68:24] It's right up there with everything, you know. I mean, that's what we strive for. Like I keep saying, we're there to win, you know. Then to win a championship in that, the highest level of sports racing there is. I says, wow, this is pretty special, you know.

Speaker 2:
[68:40] It kind of, you had, if I can say, you had a ton of respect in the garage from the industry. I was a witness to it. Winning that championship is kind of like the final, you know, outside of a Hall of Fame nomination. Winning the championship, you're a championship crew chief just because your effort and ability on the racetrack and the success you're having, but actually go out there and win that title and hold that trophy. It puts you in another elite category with other people that you may admire. So I always thought that was pretty interesting. I mean, I had heard the stories about how you had kind of been recruited by Bobby to get up here, and then you worked with Mark and won all his races and got with Kurt, and Kurt was successful. But it, and all of those things are amazing, but that title really kind of like, it's a period at the end of the sentence.

Speaker 3:
[69:50] Yeah, that championship, when it's something you'll never forget, you know. You know, I'll never forget when we won it at the racetrack, it didn't sink in to me, you know. I said, OK, guys, let's get this thing through tech. Let's get a load of, you know, we got to work tomorrow, you know. And then I got thinking, OK, wait a minute, let's enjoy this a little bit, you know, for the guys, you know. But the biggest thing I enjoyed was going to New York, going to the White House. You know, all the perks you get. Yes. And I says, wow, this is special that I would have never, ever been able to do without winning this championship. So all the hard work kind of paid off, you know. So and it's just, it was my year to win it or whatever. You know, Jack told me the year before after Matt Kinsey won his, he says, all right, next year you got to win it. And sure enough, we want it, you know.

Speaker 2:
[70:47] Y'all, you know, you continue to work with Kurt until 06, you'd get paired up with Jamie McMurray, and you'd work with him for a while. You were promoted to head of Roush Racing's Busch Series program. So you were multitasking, right? As crew chief still, because you would be David Reagan's crew chief on the sixth car in 07. Matt's crew chief in 2010. You won three races with him. You worked with Carl Edwards. You would eventually retire in 2014.

Speaker 3:
[71:29] I had the privilege of working with all these talented race car drivers. It was just amazing that I got to work with them all. You know, the fact that every one of them that I worked with, or five of them are in the Hall of Fame, you know, so I thought that was a very big privilege to work with people like that.

Speaker 2:
[71:48] You're 72 years old, and when you retired, I will say, if I can do the math, you were 60. Why this is, I mean, a guy who just got as much of a reward from being on top of a pit box or building a race car as driving one. How difficult was it to make that choice? Because it's easy to say at the end of the season, when you're standing there at the final race and you are worn down to the nub to go, yeah, I could take a little time off. That would be nice. But you know, when they crank those cars up in Daytona and you're not there, that is a hard thing to reckon with, right? How was that experience for you? I know you continue, you had a role in the program, you had a role in the operation, you were still an asset to the team, you were still there, needed, you found a niche. But you're not the crew chief anymore. Like, did you miss the competition? Did you miss the process of leading the team or building the cars, preparing the cars?

Speaker 3:
[72:53] Yeah, I missed the process of leading the team, you know. Because back then, after I stepped off the box, I still was involved, you know. In fact, I was pretty much involved with the Speedway program, you know, and I continue on that program there. But I was involved, hands on. But it took me about six months to say, okay, I don't miss the box anymore, you know. And then as the years progressed from there, well, if I'm not at the racetrack, I don't really miss it, you know.

Speaker 2:
[73:29] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[73:30] So because what I see right now with technology, the way it is changed completely. Oh, my God. I can sit on my chair at home, and I got four computers in front of me that I watch everything on Sunday.

Speaker 2:
[73:42] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[73:43] Everything, you know, SMT, everything. And I can I see more there than I could see at the racetrack.

Speaker 2:
[73:48] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[73:49] So that's that's the way I feel it. I'm still involved on Sundays, seeing what the guys are doing, where they're getting beat, you know, stuff like that.

Speaker 2:
[73:57] Yeah. Well, you've you became the executive vice president of competition 2020. As you mentioned, you're in special projects, inducted into the Southeastern Wisconsin Short Track Hall of Fame in 2024. It's been quite the career. And honestly, man, sitting here in front of you, you seem like you're in really, really good health. Good at solid, solid, sharp mind at 72 years old. You know, you're still you're still adding to something. You're still an asset, a piece, a part of something. What's how far do you take it?

Speaker 3:
[74:36] Me, I like to keep going.

Speaker 2:
[74:37] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[74:37] You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[74:38] There's no beach that you want to go sit on. No, not a retired life.

Speaker 3:
[74:42] I if I do retire right now, I play a little bit golf, a little golf and I build my own hot rods. I got a collection of hot rods that I've been building over the years and I build them myself.

Speaker 2:
[74:54] What's the current project?

Speaker 3:
[74:55] Six eight Dodge Charger.

Speaker 2:
[74:57] Really? That's an interesting one.

Speaker 3:
[74:58] RT, yeah. But I've got it and I never sold them. They're sitting in my garage.

Speaker 2:
[75:03] You build them and park them?

Speaker 3:
[75:05] You never drive them.

Speaker 2:
[75:05] No kidding.

Speaker 3:
[75:07] In fact, I even got the, it's quite an honor to get this from Edsel Ford was winning championship. I got a 2006 GT, 40 in my garage with 74 miles. I never drove it.

Speaker 2:
[75:18] Wow.

Speaker 3:
[75:19] In 2006, I took it home and parked it, you know. Yeah. So but that's what I enjoy, you know, when I'm not involved, you know, thinking about the next move here, next move there, you know.

Speaker 2:
[75:28] You ever get out to a short track?

Speaker 3:
[75:31] Nah.

Speaker 2:
[75:31] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[75:32] Nah. I got to, I usually don't get out, you know.

Speaker 2:
[75:36] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[75:39] It's a different atmosphere now than when it used to be, if that makes sense. You know, there's different people running now. There's, and like I say, with technology, I see more at home than I can see.

Speaker 2:
[75:51] Well, I mean, like a local short track or Wisconsin or somewhere.

Speaker 3:
[75:55] Oh, like Hickory or something.

Speaker 2:
[75:55] Yeah, like get out to something that would remind you of where you were in the early 80s or the 70s.

Speaker 3:
[76:04] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[76:05] Like an experience like that.

Speaker 3:
[76:06] I don't know. One day I'm going to take a trip back up to the Slinger for the Slinger Nationals. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[76:11] You really should.

Speaker 3:
[76:12] But because I enjoyed that, you know, going up there and seeing all the guys.

Speaker 2:
[76:16] You're going to see all the same people.

Speaker 3:
[76:17] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[76:18] Yeah. They'll just be a lot older.

Speaker 3:
[76:20] A lot older. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[76:21] They'll have families running around. Well, I've enjoyed this talk, man. You know, I've always admired you. And it's funny, man, me and you never really talked that much at the racetrack. I was kind of always intimidated by you, to be honest with you.

Speaker 3:
[76:35] I usually don't talk much.

Speaker 2:
[76:36] I know. You don't. You don't. But I mean, you were just about your job and you really were only you were did you I mean, outside of your own team, who were your friends? Who were the drivers? Did you have people that you admired or had conversations with? Did you have much of a relationship with dad outside of just going to that race, William?

Speaker 3:
[76:55] Oh, yeah. Your dad was he tried to hire me one time.

Speaker 2:
[76:58] Really?

Speaker 3:
[76:58] Yeah. When are you going to come work for me? I said, well, I'm pretty happy with Jack right now. You know, so that was good. But, you know, Ray Everham, when I was at Bobby Allison Motorsports, you know, right there by the speedway, Ray would stop at night because I always work day and night. You know, he would stop in and we'd hang out together. And that's when he was first coming from Iraq into the deal. And I'm not helpful. My kind of show areas I was working on, you know. So but I consider Ray was a pretty good friend. Mike Beam was a good friend of mine, you know. So but it was all good. You know, I was just I kind of was stated my own world, you know, because I focus on my own stuff.

Speaker 2:
[77:40] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[77:40] You know, I don't care what you have, you have, you have. I'm going to have something better.

Speaker 2:
[77:44] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[77:44] That was my mind thought.

Speaker 2:
[77:46] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[77:46] You know, so that's way it worked out.

Speaker 2:
[77:48] Well, it worked out pretty good. You won a ton of races, had a very successful career, championship winning crew chief and and man, got to work with some very, very fascinating personalities.

Speaker 3:
[77:59] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[77:59] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[77:59] Very fortunate. I'm working with all them talented racecar.

Speaker 2:
[78:02] Absolutely. Well, I appreciate you giving us some time today.

Speaker 3:
[78:05] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[78:05] Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[78:05] Appreciate it.

Speaker 2:
[78:06] All right. Jimmy Fennig on The Dale Jr. Download. So, Jimmy was a lot of fun to talk to. I didn't know what to expect. I kind of thought I knew what his personality was like just being around him in the garage. He just seemed to always be a super serious guy, super quiet, not really a jokester. A lot of the guys in the garage in the Cup days in the 90s and 2000s, a lot of in between work, it was always a lot of goofing around, everybody picking and prodding and being goofballs. Not this guy. He was all about his job and going fast. Man, to hear that dad tried to hire him on time, that would have been a thing to see them two work together. They'd have probably won a good chunk of races had they had the opportunity. He seemed like he could go anywhere and get to Victory Lane. Of course, he got to work with a lot of very talented drivers, long list, but he shared success with all of them. So, thankful to he, thankful to he gave us some time today. I wanted to, you know, get him on the show, check that box and tell him how much I appreciated him and respected him. And I hope you all enjoyed the conversation. 72 years old, 2004 NASCAR Cup Series Champion, Crew Chief, 40 time winning Crew Chief at the Cup level. Who knows how many races he won in the ASA ranks and the short tracks as a Crew Chief. But pretty outstanding. Hope you enjoyed the show. Thank you for joining us today in the Arby's studio. It's always great to have y'all on board for the guest segments. Don't forget about Arby's new meat and three box. You get more meal for your money at Arby's. Arby's, we have the meats. We'll see you tomorrow. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Instagram, Facebook, X and TikTok.