transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] There's a few museums. One is called Instagram, one is called TikTok, one is called Facebook, and they want to display our art in their museum. The most enjoyable time we had interacting with this canvas is when we were making it, not hanging it. So we hang it in the museum. Do you think it does us any good to stand by our piece of art once the museum opens to see how everybody feels about it?

Speaker 2:
[00:34] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[00:34] You do?

Speaker 2:
[00:35] No. No, but I couldn't let you just eat like that on my podcast, so I had to fix that on that, because I bet you don't. Not here, not at Woman Evolve. When I go to the basement, you lay out a spread, you eat all you want to. What's up, family? This is your girl, Sarah Jakes Roberts, and you are listening to the Woman Evolve Podcast. Let me tell you something, this episode finna toss us around. This episode had hands on it. Okay, let me say this, first of all. I knew that there was potential for this conversation to go many different ways. I was not prepared for where it went. And in a moment, you will see why. We went a little bit longer than normal, so I am going to skip minding your business, but that's all right. I will be back next week with a fresh mind your business question. But I feel like in order for us to properly set up the beauty of this episode, that I want to tell you a story about a time in my life where I thought I was doing like good, like really good. And then I found out that I wasn't as healed as I thought it was. I am taken back to the year 2015, in which my husband and I had been married for a few months. And let me tell you something you need to know about me. When I met my husband, it was 2014, and I had been divorced for about two years. And in that time, I went from living with my parents. The blog that I had started in my first marriage had begun to create connection and community amongst other women. I had written my first book. And I was really at this space where I was owning the fact that I hadn't had this perfect little life, the perfect past, but that God's love was still available to me. I was feeling confident in my skin. And so when I met my husband, I knew that he had called him a prize. Do you understand what I'm saying? I knew that he was moving in a space of his life where the Lord had truly blessed him and allowing me to be a part of his life. I felt good about myself. Now, here we are married and I'm the prize, I'm the queen. And I've met a man who, it's not that he didn't make me feel like a prize, but he would start asking me questions. And in the process of asking me those questions, I started to feel a little less queenly. Turns out, you can be a queen and still have healing to do. Turns out, you can be a queen and still need to do some growing. Sometimes we feel like when we wear that crown, that that crown means we have arrived. No, it just means that we have realized that arrival is a process and we don't have to wait to be regal until we have finished that process. That's what I had to learn, but it's not what I knew then. What I learned in that moment is that it takes time for you to come to a place where you are okay, not just with who you are, but with who you are becoming and who you aren't. And by time, I mean a lifetime. And I had to be willing to give myself space to continue growing without feeling like I have finally made it to this place of arriving. It's so funny though, because I know that that desire to get to a place of arriving had everything to do with me running from my past mistakes and my past failures. I wanted to get to a place where I could finally say, I'm proud of who I am and I'm no longer ashamed. But because life is the way that it is, I know that that happens in cycles. When I met Tim Ross, I was nine years old. I was just a little girl and my family had moved to Dallas, Texas. And we were living in a world that was so much bigger than us. And in that course of time between nine and probably 17 years old, he saw my life change and grow. And then from the age of 17 until 37, I saw his life change and grow. But it was from a distance on social media. I started seeing this guy with glasses who was preaching and speaking and teaching. And then as his life continued to grow and evolve, I saw this guy whose podcast was going viral, sometimes because he was just speaking a truth that no one else was willing to say, which reminded me of the boy I knew when I was growing up in the Potter's House, and then also saying things that no one else could say. And so it has been probably 20 years since we have sat down and had a conversation. And I've got to be honest, there was a part of me that wondered. And see, I don't know if this is like a unique experience, but because I grew up in church and a lot of my failures and mistakes took place in this environment where people could watch, I think there's always this part of me that's a little bit curious when I meet someone from that season of my life, like, did you see me as a bad girl? Like, did you feel like I was this or I was that? And so I knew going into this conversation that I was going to be curious about, like, where he stood when my life experienced this devastation. Was he one of those ones who secretly judged or one of those ones who didn't care at all? And he gives me an answer to that question that literally made me cry. And as much as I was like, we can edit this right on out. No one needs to see this. I would be doing a disservice to you and who God has called me to be if I didn't share my own vulnerability and authenticity. And so I hope that you will hold space for me as I have a moment of healing and breakthrough even on the podcast. Tim Ross is a pastor, an author, a speaker, and a cultural voice known for his bold, transparent approach to faith and emotional healing. He was born in Englewood, California. He is the host of a podcast that undoubtedly has shaken culture. His Instagram username is Upset the Gram, which I think is so appropriate because he's had so many conversations where he has upset status quo. He's been rogue, gone rogue. And it is a pleasure and an honor to have him on this podcast. He's been a youth pastor, a director of student ministries, a campus pastor, a lead pastor, but he's finally settling into his voice as a shaper of culture and a general for a generation who needed someone who was willing to speak authenticity and truth to power in a way that only he can. You guys, let's numb into this conversation with Timothy Ross. What's up, family?

Speaker 1:
[07:10] What's up?

Speaker 2:
[07:11] You know what's really funny is that most people would not know that you and I actually have history.

Speaker 1:
[07:17] Mad history.

Speaker 2:
[07:18] Oh, yeah. I mean, I know that I was younger, but maybe do you want to unpack a little bit, like your first encounter or experience with Little Evolve, Girl Evolve.

Speaker 1:
[07:30] Little Evolve.

Speaker 2:
[07:31] Before it became Woman Evolve.

Speaker 1:
[07:32] BG before OG. So I have known you since you were nine.

Speaker 2:
[07:37] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:38] And Dexter, I think, was two.

Speaker 2:
[07:41] Yeah, a baby.

Speaker 1:
[07:42] Two or three. I remember him running down the halls. And so you and Cora were like two little girls in a big mall by yourselves.

Speaker 2:
[07:57] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:58] Right. And just wide-eyed and looking around. And we hadn't connected yet. Um, but y'all were my family.

Speaker 2:
[08:16] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:16] Still are my family. And so to see you from nine until now, and all that has happened in between, is nothing short of miraculous.

Speaker 2:
[08:30] Yeah. You know, it's funny. So, of course, you know my brothers. And I will tell people all the time when they, like, you know, I see your clips or you're online. I'm like, Tim's pretty much been that way since I was a little girl.

Speaker 1:
[08:44] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[08:44] Like, I can remember you.

Speaker 1:
[08:47] I'm so pleased to tell the people.

Speaker 2:
[08:49] That's the only version of you that I've ever known. And I think that that is part of why in this world of, like, not fitting in, not feeling like I had a place, there was this guy who was, like, cool and relevant and would say things. It's like, I don't think you're supposed to be saying that. I'll be honest. I'll be honest. But you would say it again. And in a way that, but it made the youth, I think those of us who didn't feel connected with what was happening in the church, feel like at least there's this one person who is cool enough and relevant enough that he understands, like, what we're up against in the world and culture and what we're trying to figure out with faith.

Speaker 1:
[09:27] Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2:
[09:28] Did you know that?

Speaker 1:
[09:29] I did not know that. And so to know that really makes me feel justified. Because I'm an introvert, and I've gone most of my life, except when I'm on major platforms, unnoticed. And I very much like to be left alone, right? And so that's where I get my energy from. And almost four years now, since the Lord has literally magnified my influence in a way that I never asked for. Like I wasn't in a corner somewhere like, God, use me to shake a generation. Like that, I'm on the back row, like use him or them to do it, right? And so for that influence to be here now and to have so many different people be able to just take 90-second clips and judge someone's whole life on 90 seconds, I'm like, but I've been like this. I've been always like this. So for you to be able to say that, I'm just like, thank you.

Speaker 2:
[10:47] For sure.

Speaker 1:
[10:48] I mean, because I know Jamar, Jermaine, Cora, everybody can say, bro, been on this energy since Jump.

Speaker 2:
[10:56] I can just see you as a little girl, like at the altar, like they're down there, like stepping and everyone else was shouting, they're like stomping and stepping. Like it was just always uniquely yourself and uniquely an expression that was different than what was the norm. And I think that there was a draw to it. Do you feel like now that you've like had these moments that have gone viral and you've like said, is there anything you wish you would not have said that is gone?

Speaker 1:
[11:23] No.

Speaker 2:
[11:24] Really?

Speaker 1:
[11:25] No.

Speaker 2:
[11:25] Say it differently?

Speaker 1:
[11:27] No.

Speaker 2:
[11:29] Unpack that. Because you've said some things, Tim.

Speaker 1:
[11:32] Yes, I have. And I'm glad you asked the question. What I wish I would have been more aware of is how many people would be looking in the room while I'm talking to the people that I'm connecting to. So, here's the way I see it in my head. If I have all my windows open in front of my house and somebody's walking their dog through our neighborhood and they hear a bunch of conversation coming through the window, I didn't know what the thing was going to be walking by when they walked by when I was talking to my family and hanging out with my friends and saying what I was saying, nor that I think that they would go tell other people, you will never believe what that guy is saying in his own house. Right? So, the people that I was connected to in the room had context to what I'm saying, whether it was at church or whether I'm sitting down on a pod saying what I'm saying. But once it gets clipped and it goes out, they don't have context to what I was saying. And so, I just take comfort in knowing that in the same way people have taken Scripture out of context to make it fit their own narrative, the same thing happens with our words as well.

Speaker 2:
[13:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:05] And I think there would be very few of us that could talk as much as we talk.

Speaker 2:
[13:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:14] And not have an excerpt pulled that we roll our eyes at. Like, that's what you got from this?

Speaker 2:
[13:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:23] Like, I talked for 45 minutes and that's what you got out of this. So, no, I've thought about it long and hard and talked about it with Juliet and my kids. Cause my kids get some of the clips sent to them. Like, this your dad?

Speaker 2:
[13:36] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:37] Nathan came to me last week and was like, Dad, my friend sent me a clip. I want you to guess which one he sent. I said, the stripper comment. And he was like, yep, that's the one. He was like, I don't even understand why he sent it. Cause in Philippians 2, like my 17 year old knows the context to it that I had. So, if people would like to say it was tasteless, it was whatever, whatever adjective they want to use to describe it, I can let them have that. But I'm not taking back what I said cause I meant it.

Speaker 2:
[14:16] Do you feel a responsibility though, like the more people who are watching and engaging or just have access to what you put out to self monitor in a way that could dilute your authenticity? Like, do you battle with that or you just?

Speaker 1:
[14:32] I don't. And the reason why I don't is it depends on what you're focused on. If you're focused on crowds, you are going to be monitoring every word that comes out of your mouth. If you're cultivating and curating a community, the community understands you. There's a common unity within that group of people. And community builds culture. And culture is how we communicate, what we wear, how we express ourselves, how we move about in the world. Right? So you think about hip hop culture. You know somebody that's in the hip hop by the way they talk, the way they dress, the way they walk. Like there's a whole vibe to them. And so we've built a common unity with a group of people. Sarah, here's what I had to give myself permission to do. I curate safe spaces for people to give the gift of their vulnerability.

Speaker 2:
[15:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[15:43] And what I found myself doing was creating spaces that were safe enough for everyone except me. And I didn't want to lock myself out of experiencing what I was facilitating other people to experience. So if it wasn't going to be safe enough for me, I didn't want to do it no more.

Speaker 2:
[16:08] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[16:09] And so sometimes my strongest emotions lend me to use the strongest language to express myself. I have a very vast vocabulary. I can use other words. I can say something's egregious, right? I can say that this is preposterous. I can use a good $10 word. And Brene Brown says something one day that I've never forgotten, or maybe I read it. I don't think she said it. I read it. After dealing with humans for so long, she realized that there's two main things people do in the midst of pain. They pray and cuss. And if that's not in you, it's not going to come out of you. But because I speak so much, the only time I know that I don't have my guard up is when any word I'm feeling at the time can flow. And I'll let people live in the tension of how they feel about that.

Speaker 2:
[17:27] Well, and you're letting that happen. Do you think that's going rogue? You know that's our theme this year. To find a way to live in such a way that you are not twisting and contorting to fit the palates of whomever you're exposed to and instead staying anchored in your authenticity and identity. Like, is that going rogue in a culture that is constantly trying to fit in?

Speaker 1:
[17:52] Yeah, it is. And, you know, I sat with that word for a while because I'm a wordsmith and I'm a literalist. And so I'm like, am I rogue?

Speaker 2:
[18:03] Yes, you?

Speaker 1:
[18:04] I am. Yeah, I am, right?

Speaker 2:
[18:07] Right.

Speaker 1:
[18:08] And I got a compliment several years ago that I didn't know was a compliment. Like I had to think about it, you know, sometime you get it. It's like, was that a bad kid? Are you dissing me? Smiling, you know. So what the person said was, this is after I preached at this conference. He said, you are the most irreverent, reverent person I've ever met in my life. And I was like, thank you.

Speaker 2:
[18:38] Right. I think.

Speaker 1:
[18:39] You know, and what I, as I process it more, and he elaborated, he was like, you actually don't care about nobody's tradition, but what is sacred, you won't even disturb that. But whatever is somebody's, I don't disrespect people's tradition, but also I can allow you to have your way without you taking away mine. I have too many stamps in my passport to, to think any differently. I've, I've preached at almost every known denomination. Like the little dude from LA has, I've preached in a Scottish Reformed Church in Scotland. That was 162 years old at the time. The only time I've ever been told what to preach, what the title was, and what book, chapter and verse to preach it from. And while I'm there, I'm rocking with y'all. Is this how y'all worship here? I'm with y'all today. And I can enjoy your expression without you taking away mine. And we live in a culture, I think the, I want rogue to become regular, right? But we live in a world that doesn't want to hold tension. We want to relieve it. And so no one's strong.

Speaker 2:
[20:16] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:16] No one gets to be strong enough to handle anything that comes in life because, let me take that off your hand. Let me take that off your plate. Oh, that bothers you. Let me know. You need to, I'll change. And it's like, grow up. Everybody ain't gonna like you.

Speaker 2:
[20:33] Right.

Speaker 1:
[20:33] Everybody ain't got to, I was a vegan for 14 months. Ask me if anybody else in the Ross family, you was by yourself, cared at all.

Speaker 2:
[20:44] Eating bacon.

Speaker 1:
[20:44] I had a little pitiful spot in the pantry for all my vegan items, and they was eating lamb and goat and curry, goat and jerk chicken in my face at the table. While I was sitting there with quinoa and a whole avocado.

Speaker 2:
[21:04] What broke you? I need to know what broke you out of veganism.

Speaker 1:
[21:06] Travel. Yeah, I need more protein. So I brought fish and eggs back into my diet.

Speaker 2:
[21:12] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[21:12] That's it.

Speaker 2:
[21:13] Yeah. See, I want to ask you about this because you're what a lot of people would call myself. You know, as far as emotional awareness and intelligence and doing the work.

Speaker 1:
[21:22] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[21:23] A lot of people believe that when you start doing this type of work, that it takes away from your ability to have emotional resilience and that it makes you more vulnerable. But I think that there is something to be said about it increasing the capacity for discomfort.

Speaker 1:
[21:39] You are speaking my direct language.

Speaker 2:
[21:43] I know, I know.

Speaker 1:
[21:44] Like I'm so hype. So I've been in therapy for 28 years. I gave my life to Jesus January 14th of 1996. I preached my first sermon February 25th of 1996.

Speaker 2:
[21:58] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[21:59] And I walked into my first therapy session in 1998. After going to a bunch of opticals for lust and trying to get over porn addictions and trying to figure out what to do with the sexual abuse that I experienced and endured when I was eight years old by an older teenage boy that lived across the street from me. And none of it worked. And then I sat down with a Christian therapist. You know who the first one was? OG, Dr. Bobby Gibson.

Speaker 2:
[22:32] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[22:32] That was my first therapist. Sat down with him and like shared everything with him. And he was like, oh, that makes sense.

Speaker 2:
[22:41] I was like, what?

Speaker 1:
[22:42] You don't have like three scriptures to prescribe me? He was like, that makes sense. And you've probably had, you know, your brain has been rewired and yeah, I can see how you got into that habit. And yeah, we need to keep unpacking that cause I don't want to just deal with the fruit of the issue. I want to get to the root. And I was like, what are you talking about? And so that started me on this journey, Sarah, of like, I want to get to the roots of all my issues, not just the behaviors that come out of it. I want to get to the roots of it. And it actually made me stronger. I think it was Dr. Caroline Leaf said one time as a quip, she said, Most people get into therapy for their issues, and they stay in therapy for everybody else's.

Speaker 2:
[23:30] Mm-hmm, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:33] I, once I started to become like aware and free, and I had the ability to like change my narrative, right, based on the tools that I was given, I started to see very quickly, you haven't done this work.

Speaker 2:
[23:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:50] And you go through, like when you first start doing this work, there's a little phase you go through of judgmentalism.

Speaker 2:
[23:56] Oh, oh. Your brokenness is showing up in this area.

Speaker 1:
[24:02] Right, right, right, because it's like you see your own self, because self-conscious people don't see anybody but themselves.

Speaker 2:
[24:08] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:08] A self-aware person sees themselves and everybody else in the room. And so you go through this little space where you're judgmental because you're like, you ain't doing nothing. You should know better, blah, blah, blah. And then you quickly get over that and you're like, there's a lot of empathy for that person.

Speaker 2:
[24:22] For sure.

Speaker 1:
[24:22] And then you're just like, can I encourage you to do the same thing?

Speaker 2:
[24:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:26] If you can just do this work, you will be such a better person. If you can put your feelings into words. So the emotional resilience is because of therapy, not the other way around. I'm not weaker because of therapy. I'm actually stronger and more resilient because I can, I actually have tools I can reach for in those days that I'm most frustrated.

Speaker 2:
[24:51] Now you said going to altar calls, preaching and still had these, you know, behaviors and issues that were rooted inside. Can we talk a little bit about like the intersection of faith and mental health? Because there are moments where maybe I'm speaking in preaching and I'm like speaking against the spirit of depression or anxiety. In my mind, I'm thinking that in this moment, I could say something that inspires someone to move into therapy. I think I said, you got to call the lady, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[25:24] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[25:24] I think people are waiting to get their full deliverance at the altar. And if they don't, they think there's something wrong with them. Whereas what I'm thinking to myself is if we could get it to rise to the surface where you want to go to war with what's going to war with your ability to have a sound mind, with your ability to have peace, you may have to do the practical tools somewhere else, but maybe we can say something in this moment that gives you permission to move in that direction.

Speaker 1:
[25:47] So, I could talk to you for 17 hours straight. I was the one that was at the altar waiting for the magical moment. And because I had been around some people that had those magical moments, then you're thinking, well, I'm at the Pool of Bethesda and I just never get there when the water is troubled, right? And I realize, okay, for the vast majority of us, there's some people that come down to the altar and alcoholism... Instantaneous, right? Like sexual abuse, like instantaneous deliverance. I never struggled with it again. I never thought about it again. And I'm like, I wish I was in your body because I wanted that too. I had to go do extra work, right? And so, to me, for the vast majority of people, I believe God's power can work in a moment. And there is a process of sanctification that cannot be ignored, right? For me, a great sermon simply opens up a can of worms.

Speaker 2:
[26:56] Yeah. Oh, not closes it.

Speaker 1:
[26:58] It opens it.

Speaker 2:
[26:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:59] Right? Because now, especially when people are experiencing the ministry that God has entrusted to you, you went first, so now I'm going second, right? You share your testimony, you talk about the freedom, and then you exhort us to like, to come out of it, right? So now I'm at the altar, this can of worms has been popped open, and I need to sort them.

Speaker 2:
[27:23] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:23] And then you got to look around and be like, who will I sort this with? Who do I go to? Do I have a trusted friend? Do I have a counselor? Do I have money for therapy?

Speaker 2:
[27:32] Right?

Speaker 1:
[27:32] Like, where do I go from here? If they have that roadmap of where to go next, that's the win. What I don't want people to do is just put the lid back over it until next Sunday.

Speaker 2:
[27:46] Right.

Speaker 1:
[27:47] Right? Cause then we just, the perpetual altar goer or crier person. Right? I have had many a days, I will not name churches. I've had many a days, many a week of seeing the same people come to the altar. You almost roll your eyes like, there she go.

Speaker 2:
[28:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:04] There he go again.

Speaker 2:
[28:05] Right.

Speaker 1:
[28:06] And it's like, we want to sort these worms. We don't want to play with them.

Speaker 2:
[28:10] Right.

Speaker 1:
[28:11] I don't want you to have a worm collection that you pop out every Sunday at the close of my message. I want you to be able to sort those, deal with them so that you can move on with your life.

Speaker 2:
[28:21] Do you think that as ministers and leaders, that we have a responsibility? How can we make that more clear for people?

Speaker 1:
[28:29] Well, you can't take anybody to where you haven't been.

Speaker 2:
[28:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:33] So I think there's a lot of pastors and ministers who haven't done the work. So their message isn't even trauma-informed enough. To guide people in that direction. I always give this illustration that Moses ran from Egypt after murdering somebody, went to the wilderness, got a word from God, went back to Egypt, and brought the people back to the wilderness, because that was the last place he had been. Joshua and Caleb go into the promised land, spy it out. Ten of their homies feel like they can't go, so they got to do laps in the wilderness. Moses strikes the reichs and dies. Joshua takes his place and takes the children of Israel where? To the promised land, which is the last place he had been. Jesus comes down from heaven, dies for our sins, ascends again. He's coming back again to take us where? Heaven, the last place he had been. So if you haven't been there, you can't guide anybody there. The most we get, Sarah, from some people is like general directions. Do you know where the mall is? I know if you-

Speaker 2:
[29:52] It's over there somewhere.

Speaker 1:
[29:53] If you keep going east, like if you get off on 20.

Speaker 2:
[29:59] Right.

Speaker 1:
[30:00] It's over there somewhere. And that's how some people's sermons are. Freedom is over there somewhere. I ain't been there. But I know we're supposed to be free, but I'm not. So somewhere over there. And so our leaders need to do their work. Cause if they do their work, then the roadmap becomes very, very easy.

Speaker 2:
[30:21] When you said that there aren't enough pastors or leaders who are trauma informed enough to even give those directions. I think it's also true that they didn't have to be, that they were serving a generation that didn't necessarily require that of them. And I think as we're seeing times change, that there's a generation, I mean, even if it's just social media, not to mention those who are actually going to therapy and doing the work, that there is this idea of integration. How to have a fully integrated faith. And I think that that's what people want to know more now than they did back then from their leaders. It's like, okay, I hear what you're saying on Sunday, but how do I live that out Monday through Saturday? And what do you do when there are obstacles? And are you experiencing them yourselves? Cause I almost don't trust you unless you've told me that you've had these experiences too. Like in your years of ministry, like how have you seen the evolution of the world and culture require something different from our methods in faith?

Speaker 1:
[31:19] It's a very insightful question. I've watched the Silent Generation pass on their theology to the Boomers who passed it on to Gen X, who passed it on to Zs and Alphas and Bs, right? Because Boomers gave birth to Xs and Millennials, right? Well, if a Silent Generation, if the whole generation was called Silent, the Boomers didn't have a chance. They didn't say a mumbling word. They didn't say a mumbling word. So I have a lot of grace for a generation whose parents said nothing, right? And then our generation like Reality TV was born on our watch.

Speaker 2:
[32:10] For sure.

Speaker 1:
[32:10] Real World Season 1, Pedro and Puck, like that was on our watch, right? And that was unscripted reality television. Like for real reality television. It was like put a camera in the room, get them drunk and see what happens, right? So we came up on that and we were the ones that were like, well, I'm just going to tell you how I feel. Yeah, because that's just who we are. The shift probably was around. It's not going to be precise, but maybe let's say 2010. Around 2010, things started to change where it was like, I'm going to need more than just he going to bring you out.

Speaker 2:
[32:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:55] Did he bring you out?

Speaker 2:
[32:56] Right. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Speaker 1:
[33:02] I've heard this story about Lazarus coming up out of his grave. Did you come up out of her grave? And can you tell me what your grave it was? Like, where was your plot? Right. I want to see it for myself. So here's one of the thoughts that I synthesized after doing all this work. If we were simply, as communicators of the gospel, as honest about our stories as the stories we preach about, the congregation would be like, OK, you got me. Like, the only reason why I'm really down with Jesus outside of his blood is because he was tempted in all points yet without sin. I'm grateful for the amount of transfiguration. I am more grateful for the Garden of Gethsemane. If I don't have that episode, then that's a superhero. How do I know that you really can understand me if I don't know that that moment exists for you?

Speaker 2:
[34:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:04] So I don't want to hide behind the text. Yes, I've told you about David. Now, let me tell you about me. Yes, I've told you about Lazarus, but now let me tell you about me. And for those in the generation preceding us, some of them did that, and those were the revolutionary ones whose ministries exploded. But the ones that were vague, that were kind of hiding behind the text, like this happened to David, but it never happened to me because I gave my life to Jesus when I was 19, and I've been perfect ever since. There was a disconnect, and the generation started looking for new voices after that.

Speaker 2:
[34:43] I want to lean in more to this reality of like Jesus' humanity, not just divinity, 100% God, 100% man. I don't know if I wasn't listening in church. I don't know if it wasn't being broken down for me, but that was a major turning point in my relationship with Jesus. I think it felt like there was just so much distance, like he's just so perfect, so powerful. I am so not. I am so me. And this idea that there was this bridge in his humanity that would allow me an invitation into relationship with him that could allow me to be transformed became my hope. But until then, I just, are we not doing a good enough job displaying this reality of the fullness of his nature?

Speaker 1:
[35:29] Yeah. Well, we won't do it for Abraham.

Speaker 2:
[35:34] And let me tell you something, his life as a father faith, yeah, sure. But also did a little bit of lying. Did a little bit of lying.

Speaker 1:
[35:44] Did a little bit of lying, did a whole lot of murdering.

Speaker 2:
[35:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:47] That's how he got his nephew lot back.

Speaker 2:
[35:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:52] Then your wife says to sleep with the handmaid and you like, all right.

Speaker 2:
[35:55] I'm in that thing.

Speaker 1:
[35:56] Right?

Speaker 2:
[35:57] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:58] Like we strip down the humanity and our retelling makes them the Avengers.

Speaker 2:
[36:05] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:07] The Avengers don't even go to the bathroom.

Speaker 2:
[36:09] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:10] All they do is fight aliens and Thanos, right? And if that's the only picture or lens that you see it from, then it's hard to relate. Yeah. And scripture is not a comic book. These are regular degular people. Navigating their life with a sovereign God who loves them. So when we get this crescendo of 4,000 years of prophecy with Jesus, Yeshua, He's born a baby. I preached Easter in Denver. This was a baby.

Speaker 2:
[36:48] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:49] Right? Like you wait 4,000 years, you need to get it cracking, sir.

Speaker 2:
[36:53] Right.

Speaker 1:
[36:53] Like I waited 4,000 years for you. And the first thing I want to hear from you is not, hee hee hee hee hee. Right? I want to hear, I rebuke you. I want to hear, we're overthrowing Caesar.

Speaker 2:
[37:05] Right.

Speaker 1:
[37:06] This dude was born as a baby. And now we got to wait for you to grow up. And you ain't doing like feats of things that we need to hear about or see about. You make a cameo appearance at 12. We don't see you again until John baptizes you when you were 30. And then the first thing you do is go to a wedding. Like you don't start a Miracle Crusade. You just turn some water in the wine at somebody's wedding. And that's just a nice dude at this point, right? But this dude is hungry, tired, sleepy, weepy, bothered, peeved. And that humanity, we know he is lamb and lion. We know he's Alpha and Omega. But if we don't get to that humanity part, there's a reason why so many people followed him.

Speaker 2:
[37:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[38:00] Is because he knew how to relate. When you just sit down at a well into a woman who had five husbands shows up and got a side piece right now. And the first thing you say is not, you don't know how to do relationships well. It's what's popping with this water.

Speaker 2:
[38:20] Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1:
[38:22] Right. We'll get...

Speaker 2:
[38:23] He took his time. He took his time.

Speaker 1:
[38:26] And again, that's holding tension. Yeah. I don't have to get there right now.

Speaker 2:
[38:33] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[38:34] Right? Like, I meet somebody on the plane, I don't have to ask them, hey, do you want Jesus right this minute? Like, can I get your name first? And maybe it's just an email and maybe it's a follow up email, then a follow up email. And then maybe you find out, you didn't tell me you had a podcast. And then it's like, oh, I listened to a couple of them. I don't even know if I like you. And then it's like, well, can you pray with me? And maybe six months later, it's a thing. I think about Nicodemus, who came to him at night because he was so embarrassed of him. He shows up with Joseph of Arimathea to take his body in broad daylight. Like that, for a Pharisee, that is a, you make an allowed statement.

Speaker 2:
[39:16] You make a decision, right?

Speaker 1:
[39:17] So it's his humanity that drew people to him. It's the humanity that drew me to him.

Speaker 2:
[39:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:26] I'm grateful for the divine nature of God through Jesus. And it's this moment in the garden that lets me know, this is my hero. You want your friends to come pray a prayer that you know God ain't gonna answer.

Speaker 2:
[39:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:44] But you just want to pray him anyway. This is the ultimate, it's not good for man to be alone. That wasn't simply or exclusively a marital statement. That's a relational statement. He just needed their presence. And that episode is why I'm a follower to this day.

Speaker 2:
[40:04] Okay. I want to, because when we came to this space of realizing that Jesus takes his time, whether it was with the woman at the well or waiting until he was 30 before stepping into ministry, I feel like that's like something that someone needs to hear in a world that demands you be whoever you're supposed to be as fast as possible, that demands perfection, so much so that we have a fear of failure, because if I show up and I don't have it perfect and I'm not all well put together, then I could be easily rejected. I feel like there's something to be said about when Jesus calls you or comes to you, that he's willing to take his time with you until you become you.

Speaker 1:
[40:46] Absolutely. That becoming, that evolution, is not something that can be done in a microwave. Yeah. I don't need to know more, but them pot pies from Marie Callender.

Speaker 2:
[41:00] Mm-hmm, powerful.

Speaker 1:
[41:03] You don't put those in the microwave.

Speaker 2:
[41:05] Yeah, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:
[41:06] You put them in the oven. So if you hungry, you need to start 90 minutes early, right? Preheat that oven, put foil around the edges so that it won't get burnt. Because the way that that thing tastes when it comes out of the oven is completely different than when it comes out of the microwave. And we are microwaving people's salvation because for many, it's an ego trip for whoever their leader is or who they're under is. I'm raising this person up and all this. And it's like, let that person have some time in the dark. Right? My very first time on anybody's media, television, anything, was with a woman named Jeanette Aguiar. She had a show called The Spiritual Connection. She found the tape. She had it transferred to digital and we put a little clip out. So this is me in 1997. I still got on my little stud earrings. My whole voice, I was like, I was talking like this, like Stray Callie, you know what I'm saying? I was like, you know what I'm saying? Let that woman be a prostitute. Let her come to church. You feel what I'm saying? I was saved 12 months. Who I am now is totally different. In many regards, in some ways not. It's totally different than who I was 30 years ago, but we had to start somewhere. If we gotta wait until you're you, this version of you, before we trust you with a microphone, you never grow into, right? The scripture says about Jesus, that he grew in wisdom and stature and in knowledge. Like, we're not letting people grow. We wanna try to incubate them until we feel like they're ready, as opposed to when does God say you're ready? That timetable is usually different than man's.

Speaker 2:
[43:19] I mean, even Moses, you know what I mean? Moses wasn't ready, he didn't feel qualified. I'm not even worried about any of that. We're gonna start with where you are.

Speaker 1:
[43:26] We're starting right here, right now. I preached my first sermon five weeks after I got saved. Five weeks after, what was my mom and my dad thinking?

Speaker 2:
[43:34] Let me tell you, they'd have drug you around the internet if they didn't know that you were out there preaching five weeks after clink.

Speaker 1:
[43:39] Listen, listen.

Speaker 2:
[43:42] You five weeks after world and got a word?

Speaker 1:
[43:46] And I got a word?

Speaker 2:
[43:47] Ain't no way.

Speaker 1:
[43:48] That word, that preached word, 97% of it was with my eyes closed crying. I was deathly afraid to look at anybody. I was deathly afraid that what I was saying didn't make any sense. And in that small church, God's Way Holding this fellowship, my mom said, you did a good job. Next month, you're up again. Keep your eyes open a little longer. I know the presence of the Holy Spirit is overwhelming, but you'll get used to stewarding it and carrying it. And you're up the last Sunday of March as well. I did March. You're up the last Sunday of April. I did April. You're up the last Sunday of May. The whole year, I got saved in January. I preached 11 times that year. And then my mom and dad said, we feel like you've been called to ministry. If anybody asks you to preach, you should take the engagement. Who's ever going to ask me to preach? Well, the last 30 years, right? So, but if they were waiting for me to be me, who does that? And so we don't like the mess because that's tension.

Speaker 2:
[45:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[45:05] It's tension to see an incongruity in a person and still know there's a call there that we want to cultivate. We're not saying we're giving you a full platform, but we got to let you play somewhere.

Speaker 2:
[45:19] I feel like that's going to help someone who struggles with this idea of I got to have it all together. Because this is one of the things that I'm constantly reminding myself in those moments, like before I'm about to speak at the Potter's house or we're about to do Woman Evolve, I can feel a lot of pressure because then, you know, people are texting me like, I'm not even wearing my lashes. She's going to take my leg. I'm not. Let me take my wig down. She's going to take my wig. And I'm like, is she? We don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. And if I'm not careful, I can get stuck into this idea of like, you got to perform, you got to deliver. And if you can't deliver, then you failed. And I think extracting myself from those expectations and coming back to this place of all you got to do is bring an offering.

Speaker 1:
[46:06] That's it.

Speaker 2:
[46:07] All you have to do is bring an offering. If we can get people to get to a place, whether you're creating content, you're going into an office or you're doing ministry, to say that this is an offering. It is not my job to dictate the outcome or to control the responses. It's just to bring what I have. And in bringing what I have, I always think about Cain and Abel and how Cain got upset that his offering wasn't received well. And God's like, why are you upset? If you don't do well, will I not bless you in the same way? Like there's no reason for you to be upset. And so even if my offering isn't enough for the moment, it's not about people's reception. And it's not about what happens in the moment. It's about the Lord perfecting how I offer something again the next time. The question is whether or not I'll be courageous enough and brave enough to offer again.

Speaker 1:
[46:59] Yeah. I remember the very first pod that I did. I was deathly afraid. And on that pod, you can actually see the headphones that I had on had like the coil cord, and I am strangling that cord the whole time. Like I'm talking up here feels composed, but I was self-soothing with that cord because I was, preaching was easy at this point. But talking about my feelings and the way I see the world and my philosophy on the world felt so vulnerable and so scary that I really felt like I wanted to get right off the taping and go throw up in the trash can.

Speaker 2:
[47:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:48] And then I did it again.

Speaker 2:
[47:49] Why? Like, why do it?

Speaker 1:
[47:52] Because he told me to.

Speaker 2:
[47:53] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:54] That's like.

Speaker 2:
[47:56] And I can't ignore.

Speaker 1:
[47:57] That's why you're rolling your eyes, right? Like, like, like if, if, if this was a good idea, I think I would have had nine other good ideas that would have been better than that idea. But he told me to do the podcast, and he told me that the way that I mentored and discipled people privately is the way he wanted me to talk publicly.

Speaker 2:
[48:26] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[48:26] And my response was, sir, you know how I talk privately.

Speaker 2:
[48:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[48:30] I'm going to get canceled. And his response was, go ahead and get canceled.

Speaker 2:
[48:35] Yikes.

Speaker 1:
[48:36] I found my community in that cancellation.

Speaker 2:
[48:41] And, like, did being canceled do you a favor? Because, like, now I know who, like, you've just concentrated my anointing.

Speaker 1:
[48:48] I know who I'm talking to. Every day of my life, I know exactly who I'm talking to. I know who is on the other side of that lens. And for some reason, God needs me to talk the way I talk for the person that needs to get their attention, right? And so I'm so happy to do it. But when I first started, I mean, when I tell you, I was like, this is a disaster. Ain't nobody gonna listen to this. And then whenever the cancellation was that came, it literally clarified the community that I was called to.

Speaker 2:
[49:25] Can you tell me, like, because you've been canceled a few times. Not sure if you're, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:29] Yeah. I don't have social media, so I'm blissfully ignorant to.

Speaker 2:
[49:33] Well, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1:
[49:34] But a few times.

Speaker 2:
[49:35] A few times.

Speaker 1:
[49:35] Okay, am I on a streak? Like, is there a record?

Speaker 2:
[49:38] Well, I don't know if anyone's keeping track. I don't know if anyone's keeping track, but you know, I've just, you know, a few times. Yet you're still living.

Speaker 1:
[49:46] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[49:46] And you used to have peace.

Speaker 1:
[49:48] I do.

Speaker 2:
[49:48] And you used to have a calling.

Speaker 1:
[49:49] Yes. And a wife and some kids and some best friends.

Speaker 2:
[49:53] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:54] And some people that are really supportive of what it is that we do. And we hear the testimonies of people's salvation and their deliverance. And their overall mind change, which is, that's true repentance.

Speaker 2:
[50:11] Right, right, right.

Speaker 1:
[50:12] Repentance is the changing of my mind on how I thought I should live my life. That's repentance. And there's too many testimonies of that for me to believe a clip that caused me a false teacher. But you get to have that perspective.

Speaker 2:
[50:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[50:33] And I'm going to keep the testimonies.

Speaker 2:
[50:37] I mean, John the Baptist Disciples questioned whether or not Jesus was the one. And he said at the end of the day, you had to look at the fruit.

Speaker 1:
[50:44] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[50:45] Okay. Peace. Let's talk about it. It feels like it's always on the move. It feels like we can't keep it. Maybe a moment in my prayer closet, I find it. And then I open my phone or I get a text or I walk into the situation at work and it's gone again. How do you get to a place where you can hang on to peace?

Speaker 1:
[51:04] Oh, I'm so happy you asked me this question. So Jesus promised us this peace. John 14, 27, I'm leaving you with a gift, peace of heart and mind, but not as the world gives, which means and strongly implies the world does have a version of peace, but it's just temporary. The Lord's is permanent. So neither be thou troubled or afraid. That's how he ends the verse. Isaiah describes him as wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace. So it makes complete sense that the most extravagant gift that Yeshua would leave us is what he's the prince of, which is peace. And that peace is a person, his name is the Holy Spirit. Okay. As a Pentecostal, I grew up thinking he was power.

Speaker 2:
[51:59] Yes. Speaking in tongues and shouting.

Speaker 1:
[52:01] Right?

Speaker 2:
[52:01] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[52:03] And then I went back to read Acts 1, 8, slowly. And you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you, which is peace. So power without peace, we know is abusive, destructive and altogether corrosive. Power that is seeded in a person who has peace, which is a literal regulation of a person's nervous system, right? It's not like a moment. It's a perpetual state of calm, quiet, and an ability to discern what's going on right now. It doesn't mean I don't feel anxious, sad, mad, upset, grieving. It just means all of that can come and not rob me of my peace. I can grieve and not let go of my peace. I can be angry and not let go of my peace. Because our feelings are informants. They're little snitches. They come to tell us what's actually going on right now. We've suffered an injustice. We don't feel like we're being heard. We're sad because of the loss of a loved one. But we thought we had to let go of peace to embrace what the informants brought us. And we don't.

Speaker 2:
[53:32] That's good. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[53:33] When Paul describes peace as something that passes all understanding.

Speaker 2:
[53:38] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[53:40] This is a man who had been beaten for his faith three times, shipwrecked, stoned and left for dead. Given one of the worst prophecies you've ever heard in your life by Agabus, the man that wears his belt will be bound hand and foot when he goes into Jerusalem. He was like, okay, I receive it, let's go. To have peace through all of that is to literally have a nervous system that says, Yeshua left me something that he knew I was going to need on my worst day.

Speaker 2:
[54:17] Yeah. I can do all things through Christ.

Speaker 1:
[54:20] He knew I would need this on my worst day, which is why he seems to write the happiest letters from prison.

Speaker 2:
[54:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[54:29] Because he has peace. He was freer than the people on the outside because he had peace. So the book is written in a way, this book, The Missing Peace, is written in a way to tell my story of how I obtained peace and then refused to give it up for anything else that I was feeling.

Speaker 2:
[54:53] You just helped me because I've been trying to figure out, I took a break from social media. I'm back on social media-ish and I'm trying to pay attention to my body when I go into the app because I'm trying to figure out what happens and I can feel the anxiety the moment I open the app where I'm like preparing for someone to say something negative, hurtful. I just never know what I'm going to get. So I'm so guarded that even when people say something nice, I'm like, I don't want that either. I don't want that. I don't want that. And then I see the negative stuff. I'm like, I knew this was going to be here. Do I close that? Keep scrolling. You know what I mean? And so I'm paying attention to it. And I feel like it robs me of my peace.

Speaker 1:
[55:33] Then why do you go back?

Speaker 2:
[55:35] No. Okay. Sure. I think because I've been off and I'm kind of back on, I think that it's a part of me. No, it's not. I'm not saying it's great. Let's start there. But I think there's this part of me checking to see how things are being received still.

Speaker 1:
[56:00] Okay. All right. So entertain me on this. This is my relationship to social media now.

Speaker 2:
[56:09] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[56:10] So we're both artists and we paint.

Speaker 2:
[56:13] I am an artist.

Speaker 1:
[56:14] Right?

Speaker 2:
[56:14] I didn't know that until you said it, but I received that.

Speaker 1:
[56:16] Right? We're artists and we paint on this canvas. And then there's a museum. There's a few museums.

Speaker 2:
[56:25] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[56:26] One is called Instagram. One is called TikTok. One is called Facebook. And they want to display our art in their museum. The most enjoyable time we had interacting with this canvas is when we were making it. Not hanging it. So we hang it in the museum. Do you think it does us any good to stand by our piece of art once the museum opens to see how everybody feels about it?

Speaker 2:
[57:02] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[57:03] You do?

Speaker 2:
[57:04] No. No, but I couldn't let you just eat like that on my podcast. So I had to fix that on that because bet you don't. Not here, not at Woman Evolve. Now when I go to the basement, you lay out a spread, you eat all you want to. Oh my gosh, that's hilarious.

Speaker 1:
[57:22] No, Touche, I understand. But think about it, once I hang my art, I'm out because I want to go paint something else.

Speaker 2:
[57:31] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[57:31] That's what I enjoy the most. If I stand next to my piece of art, somebody's going to walk up and be like, I'm so inspired. Those colors, they're amazing. Somebody else is going to walk up and be like, my six-year-old draws better than this. And then you're going to be sitting up there like, well, your six-year-old ain't got $6,000 to put the paint at the house. And so I realized that social media is the place where I hang my art. It's the place where what I was inspired by here gets hung there. And I meant everything I said here. And then if I now have to go see how you think about it there, I'm going to come back and make something else.

Speaker 2:
[58:19] Right.

Speaker 1:
[58:20] Now you're changing my art.

Speaker 2:
[58:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:22] Because I'm going to come home thinking about you.

Speaker 2:
[58:24] What you said, yes.

Speaker 1:
[58:25] Instead of thinking about him.

Speaker 2:
[58:26] Yeah, right.

Speaker 1:
[58:28] I'm not even thinking about him.

Speaker 2:
[58:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:29] I'm thinking about you.

Speaker 2:
[58:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:31] And then I'm painting. Oh, they didn't like red last time, so I'm going to do more blue and yellow. And then before you know it, your art doesn't belong to you no more.

Speaker 2:
[58:43] It doesn't.

Speaker 1:
[58:44] It belongs to them.

Speaker 2:
[58:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:46] So how did you feel prior to coming back to social media? Like what was your state?

Speaker 2:
[58:53] No, I loved it.

Speaker 1:
[58:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:54] I loved it.

Speaker 1:
[58:55] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:56] No, I can tell. I'm like, okay, I really, really can't be on. I think here's the thing. You know how you want to test your deliverance?

Speaker 1:
[59:03] Yep. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[59:05] You know how you want to test your deliverance? I'm free. I don't care what people think about me. I can hang my art and not care. And then so being back on, like literally, I hadn't posted anything. And now, like I hung me a little piece of art and I'm like, hey guys, I painted something. Right. Right. Did y'all like it?

Speaker 1:
[59:23] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[59:23] So I'm having to like reclaim. What I love about like engaging the way that I am, because I don't have the apps on my phone at all, I have to qualify once something's posted. And I feel like that itch to go and check. It's like, what are you really looking for? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:37] Yeah. I got you.

Speaker 2:
[59:38] What are you really looking for? And who is it feeding? Because I know there's a little girl in me that wants to hear, you're good enough.

Speaker 1:
[59:44] And you know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[59:45] Like you're accepted. We like you. And then there's a little girl that's also like, oh, is this now when they're going to drop me? Is this now when I'm going to be rejected? And so I think that she wants to check more than like the woman in me.

Speaker 1:
[59:58] Yes. Okay. So then on those days when little Sarah, who I can still see vividly.

Speaker 2:
[60:07] Really?

Speaker 1:
[60:08] Vividly. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[60:12] Don't do that. I love that little girl.

Speaker 1:
[60:17] That little girl was adorably cute, innocent, and just head on the swivel. And on those days, I just want you to take her by the hand. And show her all the people, not that have screamed names, but that have real names. Take her to all those people and say, hey, little girl, he's about to tell you how much he loves you. She's about to tell you how much she loves you. They're about to tell you how much they love you. You good? You good? We don't need a stranger. We got all the people that we will ever need right here to validate who we are. That's what you do for her.

Speaker 2:
[61:22] Don't let him beat me yet. You know, I think the, yeah, okay. Okay, so the thing is, I can do that, I will do that, I can do that. I think the trauma of my experiences and now being in the position that I'm in, and I think that that's like the temptation to, that like the Lord has really had to continue to like work through me, is that like, you cannot pollute this anointing by making it about fixing those moments, you know? Because I do think that that's where there's an opportunity to get stuck, is allowing the affirmation that comes to heal those pieces in me. And I feel like that's, I've seen that happen in a lot of people's lives, where they make the anointing bait for their self-esteem.

Speaker 1:
[62:44] We gotta go slow right here. Are you kidding me?

Speaker 2:
[62:47] Yeah, I know for sure that that's like one of the things that Holy Spirit has told me, is like don't manipulate this anointing to make it about fixing you.

Speaker 1:
[62:59] So God's anointing, I'm a really basic dude. Like I can't, I don't like stuff to be too complicated. And I, the anointing simply means God's approval on the gift that he gave you. That's all it is, right? And when his approval is on the gift that he gives you, it gets people's attention. But the attention that you get are from people that don't know you.

Speaker 2:
[63:39] Mm, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[63:41] And if we have that little person in us, Yeah, right, right. Right? That still needs, that still has needs, period. And we haven't surrounded little Timmy and little Sarah with the people that he and she can trust. Then we are susceptible to, I don't know why this name is always in me for a screen name, Butterfly 909 gets to tell me if I'm going to have a good day or not based on their feedback. And I don't want to trust Butterfly 909 with how my day goes. I trust Juliette.

Speaker 2:
[64:31] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[64:32] I don't trust Butterfly 909.

Speaker 2:
[64:34] Right?

Speaker 1:
[64:34] I don't want somebody's random screen name to be the barometer of if I enjoy my day or not.

Speaker 2:
[64:45] You know, it really upset me about what you just said to me, because I'm still stuck on not what you just said, but what you said, you know, I'm really going to be sitting with you remembering that little girl, because I think the problem with something happening is, especially I think what I went through, which was something that was so public and by public, I know it wasn't like social media age, but within our church, you know.

Speaker 1:
[65:10] It was public.

Speaker 2:
[65:12] It was public.

Speaker 1:
[65:13] Public is public.

Speaker 2:
[65:14] I think, and then, you know, with it being a pregnancy, this idea of, like, innocent and good, because then I have all of these messages in my mind about, you know, shame and you're bad and you're this. And so the idea that, like, you haven't, like, you weren't those things.

Speaker 1:
[65:32] Okay. All right. We can cut this out if you think I've gone too far, because I don't... I didn't know if I would say it or if there would even be a segue to it. I think this is it. I'm going to take it. You can cut it out if you don't like it. I will never forget being in the Youth Pastors Office at the time, whose name I will not repeat. And you and Cora came down the hall, Pastors Row.

Speaker 2:
[66:10] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[66:12] You were 12, and I went home and told Juliette, I said, Sarah is really vulnerable right now. I said, I don't have the relational equity. I can call Juliette on the phone. I said, she's really vulnerable right now. I don't have the relational equity, but I feel like a big brother, if anybody messes with her, I'm going to punch him in the face. Then a year later, you got pregnant. The protector in me, like the defender in me, wanted to ether everybody that had something to say about you at that time, because I saw the innocence, and I saw the vulnerability. And you needed attention. In the same way, that little girl still looks for attention. And that's why I'm saying, when you have the right people around you to speak to her, she will calm all the way down. You didn't have it at 12. You didn't have it at 13. You have it now. I love you.

Speaker 2:
[68:19] My man is here, and you're not finna beat me up on my own podcast. That's hard. But thank you, because it is validating.

Speaker 1:
[68:30] You have it now.

Speaker 2:
[68:32] Well, I think, you know, that it wasn't there then, too. Because you make up these stories in your head, and maybe there was something wrong, you know.

Speaker 1:
[68:46] I saw you walk down that hall at 12 with Cora, and I knew it. I knew it. You didn't have it then. She is not to blame.

Speaker 2:
[69:02] Okay, well, we're moving on to rapid fire.

Speaker 1:
[69:04] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[69:05] You're already in rapid fire though, aren't you? Mm, mm, more on that later. Okay, if you disappeared for a month, where would you go?

Speaker 1:
[69:15] Sevilla, Spain.

Speaker 2:
[69:17] Have you, you've already been there?

Speaker 1:
[69:18] Haven't I?

Speaker 2:
[69:19] That's just like on your bucket list.

Speaker 1:
[69:20] I'm going.

Speaker 2:
[69:20] What's waiting for you there?

Speaker 1:
[69:22] Spanish.

Speaker 2:
[69:23] Are you fluent? Do you speak?

Speaker 1:
[69:26] Yes, but a lot, a lot. I need more conversations with Spanish speakers, but it's my passion. The language is beautiful and great.

Speaker 2:
[69:40] Yes, okay. What's the one talent you wish you had?

Speaker 1:
[69:45] Singing.

Speaker 2:
[69:46] Oh, I would be a terror.

Speaker 1:
[69:48] I would have so much probably. I would have sung this interview.

Speaker 2:
[69:53] Let me tell you, I don't know. The Lord knows what to give because I'm not sure that he would have gotten any glory out of my life about the singing.

Speaker 1:
[70:01] I would not be here right now.

Speaker 2:
[70:02] Oh, who in your life gives the best advice?

Speaker 1:
[70:08] Maxine Ross.

Speaker 2:
[70:11] Build your Mount Rushmore of preachers. Oh, you thought he was canceled before.

Speaker 1:
[70:19] Oh my gosh. My Mount Rushmore of preachers?

Speaker 2:
[70:23] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[70:27] Oh my gosh. This is rapid fire. Of preachers.

Speaker 2:
[70:32] Of preachers.

Speaker 1:
[70:33] Gilbert Earl Patterson.

Speaker 2:
[70:34] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[70:36] The great bishop, GE. Patterson. Bishop Thomas Dexter-Jakes.

Speaker 2:
[70:42] You didn't have to say that, but I...

Speaker 1:
[70:44] I give four. He has to be on it. Preachers.

Speaker 2:
[70:51] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[70:55] Noelle Jones.

Speaker 2:
[70:56] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[70:57] Just for the way he closes.

Speaker 2:
[70:58] Yeah. He's going to drag you around when he closes.

Speaker 1:
[71:02] He's going to drag himself around.

Speaker 2:
[71:04] Yeah. Literally on the floor.

Speaker 1:
[71:06] He's going to drag himself around, too. Um, preachers. I only got three.

Speaker 2:
[71:20] We'll leave the blank for whoever you've left out, who calls you after this. I didn't want... You know, I had to...

Speaker 1:
[71:26] You know what? It's probably smart.

Speaker 2:
[71:27] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[71:28] The fourth one is whoever calls me.

Speaker 2:
[71:30] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[71:30] It was going to be you. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[71:31] If you could only eat one meal for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Speaker 1:
[71:34] Breakfast. Really? Eggs.

Speaker 2:
[71:38] That's a California thing. I think that's a California... My husband cannot start his day without breakfast.

Speaker 1:
[71:45] I have to... I eat minimum four eggs a day.

Speaker 2:
[71:48] Breakfast does not matter at all to me. I could skip right past her.

Speaker 1:
[71:52] I can skip breakfast, but at lunch, I'm having breakfast.

Speaker 2:
[71:56] No. See, that's not... That's how my husband is. When I say she doesn't matter at all, I mean that if we wake up at 11, you can give me a sandwich. When I tell you he can't... That's gotta be a California... And you know what? Because breakfast places be open all the time in California.

Speaker 1:
[72:10] Because eggs. Eating a sandwich as your first meal is diabolical.

Speaker 2:
[72:19] That is crazy.

Speaker 1:
[72:20] Like a Subway sandwich?

Speaker 2:
[72:22] Yeah. No.

Speaker 1:
[72:23] You should not do... I mean, but you can do whatever you want.

Speaker 2:
[72:26] I can do all things through Christ. Because I have peace.

Speaker 1:
[72:29] Even sandwiches.

Speaker 2:
[72:30] Okay. Finish this. The world needs more. And last fill in the blank, I knew I was evolving when...

Speaker 1:
[72:47] I knew I was evolving when I stopped living for people's affirmation, and only lived for God's affirmation. I got to say this, this is end of Matthew 3. Jesus comes up out of the water. This is my son in whom I'm well pleased, right? This is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased. Validation and affirmation are given in that moment. And then when he goes into the wilderness, the only thing Satan's trying to take from him is his validation and affirmation. He ain't trying to take his anointing, he ain't trying to take his giftings. He knows that if he doesn't see himself as a son, he'll do all the right things for all the wrong reasons. So the enemy is after our identity, not our giftings. He's not trying to steal gifts. He just wants you to use the gifts in a way that a son or daughter wouldn't use them. And so being a chronic people pleaser growing up based on my abuse and all that kind of stuff, I could never tell anybody no. I didn't have boundaries. I was a yes man to my own expense and demise. And once I got my no back and I realized you weren't going to die because I wasn't going to drive you to the mall.

Speaker 2:
[74:17] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[74:18] Everything changed for me. So I evolved when man's affirmation was no longer my addiction. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[74:29] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[74:29] You're welcome.

Speaker 2:
[74:30] OK, so feelings. I had a lot of them. I had feelings. And to be honest, I will probably still be marinating on what took place on that podcast for quite some time. It was really healing and restorative for me in ways that I didn't anticipate, which I already said. And as we close out this week's episode, I just want you to know that faith is something that can be restored even from those moments where it felt like it was lost forever. That's what I learned in this week's episode is that there was a version of me who can still experience the faith that is available to me now in the present. So just bring every little part of you into every moment. As hard as it can be because we go through things where we want to distance ourselves from the choices we made, I want to challenge you to bring the good parts, the messy parts, the undeveloped parts into every part of your life because you never know when God will have a word or an encounter that can help you restore your identity in a place where you've been broken. That's my prayer for you, Lord, please keep us sensitive to the moments where you are sending to us words, messages, experiences that are meant to restore parts of us that we thought were lost. Right now, even as this message has been played, there may be someone who felt like they've lost a version of themselves, their innocence, their joy, because of something that they've gone through. God, it is my prayer that the same way you touched me, the same way that you sent a word that helped me to see myself more clearly, that you will do the same with them, that they will see themselves as still pure, still holy, still acceptable to you, because they've done the work of surrendering and sacrificing to who you are in this moment. Thank you, God, for the work you'll continue to do in us and through us. In Jesus' name, amen.