transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:08] A blue button saved this pilot's life, and it may save yours coming up in this episode of I Learned About Flying From That. Well, welcome to episode 127, sponsored by Eventgo Insurance. My name is Carl Valeri, and joining me today is David Segel. David, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2:
[00:24] Thank you, Carl. It is a privilege to be here. I have learned so much, I have to say, from these podcasts and these episodes, and I'd rather learn on somebody else's ticket, and hopefully, I can share some of my stories so other people can learn and not have to suffer those mistakes.

Speaker 1:
[00:43] You know, David, we're so thankful for you being on here because you are sharing that with our audience, and it's really important for people to share their stories so we can learn about Flying From That. And by the way, if you're listening or watching and you want to share your story, just ilafft at flyingmag.com, and you can share your story. But first of all, before we get into that story, one thing I love to hear about is people's adventures and their passion for aviation. So let's get started from what sparked your interest in aviation, and then we'll talk a little bit about the incident that night.

Speaker 2:
[01:21] Sure, Carl. Well, like a lot of people I started, I learned to love airplanes early from my father. He grew up on the East Coast in New York just post World War II, and he had signed up for the Volunteer Corps that did planespotting looking for German and Cold War planes. And he had, when he was little, a child, he'd ride his bicycle to the hilltop outside his town and watch for enemy planes coming in. And he had these little flashcards with the profile of German planes that I used to study when I was a little kid. So I was always interested. We made so many models of airplanes, crashed almost all of them, not a good start to aviation. And then when my father graduated from his engineering school, his first job out of engineering school was working directly for Igor Sikorsky as a wind tunnel engineer at Sikorsky Helicopters in the late 60s. And so there was lots of talk around the dinner table about aviation in my household.

Speaker 1:
[02:27] And so that spurred your interest in aviation. Obviously, it's like you were born into it. And fascinating, though, that you talk about those little cards. Sometimes we forget about that, that we were actually trying to spot these aircraft that might be coming into our airspace. So from there, you wound up actually getting into aviation more than just the model airplane role, actually flying airplanes. So tell us a little bit about that, how you got into actually flying the plane.

Speaker 2:
[02:54] Sure. I went into that sort of backwards from the normal way people might do that. I was working in my early 40s. I was working in the US for a company that we did a lot of travel around the US and we had just bought a Phenom 100 when the ultralight jet craze started in the mid 2000s. And I talked the company into letting me fly with our pilot who was a CFI in the right seat. And so I was able to fly four or 500 hours of instruction time with a pilot in a Phenom 100 as my introduction to aviation. But in doing that, honestly, it was a great experience. I learned to talk to air traffic control. I learned to push a lot of buttons, but I didn't learn any real stick and rudder skills. So I then decided I wanted to learn to be a good jet pilot. And I adapted with a friend of mine, a Navy, a US. Air Force training curriculum, figuring they had the best way to train. We were able to get in the seat of a short brothers to Kano, an XRAF service aircraft, fast jet lead and trainer. And with a different instructor, I spent maybe 200 hours learning to fly aerobatically, learning to learning upset recovery skills. So, I had a really good training background, but I still didn't have my private pilot's license at that point. So then, I finally decided I should get my license, which I did in a paper cub. And ever since then, I've been flying a paper cub and a bonanza, an F-33A bonanza, the little bonanza.

Speaker 1:
[04:46] It kind of went backwards there. You went from the jet backwards to Tucano, then into the J-3 cub. It's a testament to how much of a passion you have for aviation. That's for sure. I'm not sure I should ask this, but what is your favorite airplane out of those?

Speaker 2:
[05:04] Oh, that's a tough one. I love what Cubcrafters does with their product. So I fly an FX-3, and it's a great piece of equipment.

Speaker 1:
[05:12] Yeah, it absolutely is, absolutely is. So you have this incredible amount of experience as flying jets, being on the radio. I mean, that was an incredible introduction. And now, though, you're flying your own aircraft. And one of the things that I think is important is you probably gleaned a lot from those experiences. But you really had this really interesting experience one night when you went out flying on your own. So let's talk a little bit about that. As far as that one night, that things turned out a little bit differently than you thought they would when you took off.

Speaker 2:
[05:49] Sure. It's good to be able to share these stories. And I wouldn't call myself a very experienced pilot. I have, I'm about a 2,000-hour pilot. And I consider, I see myself making mistakes and learning all the time. So I, and right now I live at Alpine Airpark, which is up in Wyoming, 460 uniform. So I do have the opportunity to fly almost every day, which is great for my piloting, my learning to fly. The incident that we're talking about happened back in 2023 when I was at home on a beautiful, calm night with a full moon, having a nice steak dinner. And I realized, well, I realized that it was a perfect night to go become re, to bring my currency back for my night flying, because I hadn't flown with passengers at night in the previous 90 days. So I thought I'd go out, taxi out and maybe go do three takeoff, full stop landings and get my currency ready and enjoy a nice, beautiful evening. So I'll tell you what happened that surprised me. I jumped in the plane probably 10 o'clock at night, taxi down runway one three, which is the takeoff runway, heads out over this reservoir that has two 11, 10,000 foot peaks on either side of it. The airport's at 5,700 feet. But it's a nice long runway, it has lights, it has a GPS approach to it. And as I was taxiing down the runway to the run up area, I looked up and the full moon was coming up, right between the two mountains in the Snake River Canyon. And it looked like a postcard, but it also looked very strange. It was a deep orangey yellow, and I noted to myself, something is up with that moon, but I didn't think about it. So I pulled into the run up area, spun around, took my time, did my full run up, made my Unicom call, turned on with my mic, turned on the airport runway lights, and lined up to take off, and all looked good. So I started my takeoff roll, got to my rotation speed, took off, saw the house lights along the side of the runway, the runway lights in front of me, and as I climbed, I climbed to maybe 400 or 500 feet, got to the end of the runway, and when the runway lights disappeared, and I just put up my landing gear, I looked outside and there was nothing. It was pitch black. That's concerning because those mountains on a full moon show up like daylight, but there are no lights in them. So when there is no moon, it is dark. And honestly, I didn't know what had happened.

Speaker 1:
[08:44] So to summarize, you're taking off on this beautiful moonlit night, you thought, and all of a sudden you're in the air, and you're floating in the air, and looking around, there's no lights, no horizon, and no mountains that you're looking out for. Now we're going to talk a little bit about what comes up next. But first, we're going to take a break and go to our sponsor Avemco. Not all aircraft insurance policies and premiums are the same. As the only direct rider in the market, Avemco never uses third-party insurance agents, and instead connects you directly with an aviation underwriter in the Frederick, Maryland office, who is ready to solve problems and approve coverage based on what you fly and how you fly it. Avemco provides lightning fast quotes, competitive rates, and personalized policies that are easy to read and tailored for you. Call 1-800-338-8705 for your free quote or visit avemco.com/flying. And don't forget to tell them you're an i-Laf listener and save 5%. Now, back to I Learned About Flying From That. Well, welcome back. We're just after takeoff, and it's a beautiful moonlit night. But after takeoff, the runway lights disappear, the horizon disappears, and we possibly are IFR. David Segel is joining us here, and he is going to tell us a little bit about what happens next on this flight when we find ourselves at night in the clouds. So David, now what? Now you're in those clouds, and you're sitting there, and you're now, what's going through your mind? What emotions are you feeling?

Speaker 2:
[10:33] Well, this is an experience that I've had before, and I'm always wary of it when I don't understand what's happening, because I knew there were no clouds. It was a clear as could be evening. But I couldn't see anything. And so I leaned forward, and I'm looking out the window, and I'm trying to look for clues. And then my autopilot starts barking at me, you know that terrain, terrain, pull up, pull up. And now some panic is setting in. I'm getting very nervous. And I'm thinking, maybe, I don't know why I can't see, maybe this is spatial disorientation or something. So I hit the blue button. And when I hit that blue button, the plane turned a good 30 degrees to what's supposed to be wings level, but it didn't feel like wings level. So I said, that's not right. So I turned off the autopilot, corrected back to what I knew should be straight and level flight. And the autopilot barked at me, pull up, pull up, terrain, terrain. And I looked down on my GPS screen and I was flying straight at the mountains on the west side of the reservoir. So I quickly concluded that this was a serious case of spatial disorientation. I needed to trust my instruments and not the seat of my pants. I used that blue button again to level the wings out. I went to a heading mode, turned to the path that I knew, because I'm very familiar with the airport, straight down the reservoir, and just bugged 11,500 feet for a nice steady climb to get out of this mountainous, dangerous terrain.

Speaker 1:
[12:14] So that blue button you're talking about, for those folks that don't know what that is, what did that blue button do for you?

Speaker 2:
[12:21] Well, that blue button, when I first started flying, it was when the blue button on a Garmin autopilot first came out. And it was, I viewed it as a cop-out button, as a, you know, you use it, you know, you tell your wife to use it if for some reason things have gone wrong. And I've learned, what I learned then, of course, was that this is a very powerful tool. It's a tool that allows me to fly pitch and roll level and gives me the opportunity to be stable and to figure out what's going on. And so that's the blue button that is the quickest way for me to assure that I'm not going to stall, that I'm going to be wings level. It's not going to keep me out of the mountains, but it bought me a little bit of time so that I could figure out what to do next.

Speaker 1:
[13:11] So now you're over the lake and you're climbing and you have some situation awareness now, because first of all, you use the blue button to bring yourself to a level attitude and then you start this climb. So now what happens?

Speaker 2:
[13:27] So it was an adjustment in my thinking to move from outside to inside the plane. But once I committed to going onto instruments and stopped looking outside, I felt much more secure, that I knew where I was, I knew I could take this plane to a safe place and then I could assess and altitude is safer, especially in the mountains. So I got up to 11.5, which I know being local gives me room to maneuver. And at that point, I used my heading bug to turn the plane, to see if I could see anything behind me and look for that moon. So as I turned over one of the peaks, I saw that moon that had now risen further in the sky, but it was very obstructed. It had been obstructed by a lunar eclipse. Now, I wasn't aware that that was coming, I could call that my bad, but I had basically taken off in the onset of a full lunar eclipse, counting on that light to keep me safe.

Speaker 1:
[14:29] Wow. And that's something that I don't think most people would have paid attention to, is the fact that you think you're going to have a moonlit night, but all of a sudden that light is turned off on you because of the lunar eclipse. I'm sure that that might be part of your pre-flight now. So what did you do from there? You're up there, now you have this lunar eclipse. Now you're in the dark.

Speaker 2:
[14:50] Well, at that point, I could, I made sure the runway lights were on. I could see them fine. I took a nice high approach. I said, I know that GPS approach well, and went in and landed the plane, and I skipped the next two takeoffs and landings. I wasn't going to try to pursue my night currency, went home, made a cup of tea, and just had to calm my nerves.

Speaker 1:
[15:14] Yeah. And right now, my nerves are pretty high because I'm sitting here saying, wow, you've actually, your fate was with you. I mean, at least you were smart enough to use that blue button. But I have a question for you. Were you instrument rated?

Speaker 2:
[15:31] So at the time, I was not instrument rated. I was fortunate to have the many hours of experience with an instrument instructor. And I was somewhat familiar with spatial disorientation from my upset recovery training. But I had been procrastinating. I had done some tests, some of the testing work, some of the groundwork, and I hadn't gotten my instrument rating at the time. And that was a wake up for me. That's when I decided procrastination and piloting are not good combinations. I need to pursue this. And so I very quickly thereafter signed up for my complete course and achieved my instrument rating.

Speaker 1:
[16:11] Did this upset training? I mean, you've done a lot of upset training and lots of aerobatics, et cetera. Do you think that gave you a little bit of overconfidence possibly in flying that night?

Speaker 2:
[16:23] Oh, I think several things gave me overconfidence that night. The familiarity with the terrain and the airport is helpful. But it also kept me from recognizing the real dangers of flying at night in the mountains. I think that that upset recovery training. What I think I take away from that in upset recovery training is that recognizing spatial disorientation is the key. I don't necessarily need to fly better when I'm spatially disoriented, but I need to recognize the moment when my instinct is wrong and the instruments are correct. And that's the piece that I think I benefited from from having previous experience.

Speaker 1:
[17:09] Well, David, there's a lot that we can unpack from this. So let me ask you, what did you learn about flying from this incident?

Speaker 2:
[17:19] Well, Carl, I think I learned a lot from that. I learned that that complacency issue is always a concern and that I should have, I could have followed more direct procedures flying out at night. I should have been flying a known path. I should have been straight on to autopilot when I was at 600 feet. I was struck by how easy everything is until something goes wrong that you don't understand. This has happened to me many times in aviation where I go from full confidence to that sense of confusion. Once one thing goes wrong, other things start going wrong. Once I couldn't see what was going on outside, all of a sudden then the autopilot is barking at me, and it so rapidly becomes an issue that I have to recognize that problems compound very quickly. That's the second thing that I learned. Certainly, I learned that spatial disorientation is not only real, but it's hard to recognize. Your brain wants to tell you that the seat of your pants is correct, and that's something definitely worth overcoming, going back to our training, knowing that our instruments are correct. What else did I learn? The blue button, I learned that the blue button is a tool, and it's a really powerful tool. It's a tool that helps me trim my airplane. It's a tool that helps me quickly get on autopilot. And really, it was only my ego that was telling me that the blue button was for people who don't fly as well. So I now incorporate that blue button into a lot of my flying routines. When I get level before I go on autopilot, I use that to stabilize the plane, turn on the autopilot, and then I choose where I want to go from there.

Speaker 1:
[19:08] Interesting you said that because a lot of times that may actually humble us to know that that simple button, that simple autopilot can do a better job than we can sometimes in actually stabilizing and also trimming the aircraft. And that's tough. And it's a tough pill to swallow, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[19:30] Yeah, but better swallow it than not swallow any more.

Speaker 1:
[19:33] So yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And as far as the instrument rating, I'd like to hear your opinion on this because you said right away, you went out and you finished up your instrument rating. Your opinion of flying at night without the instrument rating. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. And for those that are thinking about doing a lot of flying at night.

Speaker 2:
[19:56] Well, as I said, I have flown, I have about 2000 hours, probably 1400, 1300 as a PIC. I am comfortable flying in the mountains without an instrument rating and I'm comfortable flying at night without an instrument rating. Is that the smartest thing? Well, I guess my experience showed me that maybe it wasn't. The instrument rating is for me, taught me a lot more about the tools that I was using, about the approaches that I had available to me. And when I looked at instrument rating originally, I thought, well, I don't really want to be flying in the clouds, or I don't really want to be flying in icing conditions. So it's not an issue for me. And I discovered very quickly in a very difficult message that it really is for me. And it had nothing to do with clouds or with icing.

Speaker 1:
[20:47] Absolutely. And that's the reason, in some places, you have to have an instrument rating to fly at night. It does make you a safer pilot. So if you're watching or listening to this, I think it's a great idea, if you're going to be doing a lot of flying at night, just like David was, to actually go out and get your instrument rating. But what else did you learn about flying from this? Anything else, or if you want to just summarize some of those points?

Speaker 2:
[21:11] No, I think that relying on our training, training is so important. Training helped me to recognize the spatial disorientation. Training helped me to transition from outside the airplane to my instruments. I didn't have the instrument rating, but I did have some of the training, so that certainly helped. So that's an important part. Sharing our stories is so important. This is not the first time I've shared that story with people. This is not the only story I could share. I honestly wish we had an eye. I learned about flying from that. They could help me with all the other parts of my life that I need people's experience in. So we'll focus on flying for right now.

Speaker 1:
[21:53] Well, that may be the next type of podcast out there, that's for sure. Well, David, I really appreciate your coming here and sharing this with myself and with the audience here, because I think this is something that's important that you do for your fellow pilot, and that is actually share your story. And just like David said, I mean, it's really important to do that. And the most important thing to do is to continue to listen to those stories and learn about flying from those stories. Again, David, thanks so much for being here, and I really appreciate your sharing your story with us.

Speaker 2:
[22:24] Thank you, Carl. You do a great job.

Speaker 1:
[22:26] Thank you, David. And if you're interested in sharing your story, email us, ilafft at flyingmag.com. And I know that you have a story inside you that will help other pilots out there become more proficient and safer pilots. Also thank you to Avemco for sponsoring this podcast. My name is Carl Valeri, and keep flying and stay safe out there. We'll see you in the next episode.