transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:09] What is going on with them?

Speaker 2:
[00:10] They're acting so odd.

Speaker 3:
[00:13] Hold up.

Speaker 4:
[00:15] You can be so thick sometimes.

Speaker 3:
[00:17] They're obviously fighting over the affections of a commander.

Speaker 2:
[00:22] How do you know that?

Speaker 3:
[00:23] Because this always happens as matchmaking season advances. The ants aren't going to say it outright, but...

Speaker 1:
[00:28] Agnes and Becca.

Speaker 4:
[00:31] They're each other's competition.

Speaker 1:
[00:34] They have always been so close.

Speaker 3:
[00:36] Hold up. God has made you ineligible for good reason. You could benefit from growing up a little.

Speaker 5:
[00:44] I...

Speaker 4:
[00:45] I never thought about it like that before.

Speaker 1:
[00:48] Do you think that God made you ineligible for the same reason?

Speaker 5:
[01:10] Hey, everybody, welcome to our podcast. I'm Daphne.

Speaker 2:
[01:14] And I'm Wendy.

Speaker 6:
[01:15] And I'm Jason.

Speaker 5:
[01:17] And this is The Handmaid's Tale Podcast, The Testaments Edition.

Speaker 2:
[01:22] This week, we're covering The Testaments, season one, episode five, Ball.

Speaker 6:
[01:28] Ball, because everyone broke down crying.

Speaker 2:
[01:31] Not the ball.

Speaker 5:
[01:32] Just ball. Just ball. Oh, man. Wow. I mean, when I saw the episode title, I thought, is it a game? Like, are they playing a game? And then I, then it clicked. It's like, no, this is, you know, the, the, the dance, the prom. But I still felt like it was some sort of game that was being played.

Speaker 6:
[01:58] And felt like a dance in more than one way.

Speaker 5:
[02:00] Yeah. There were participants that didn't have a choice. And then there was a game of bait and switch going on that was incredibly disgusting. So yeah. What do you guys think? What did you think overall?

Speaker 6:
[02:20] I thought it was a really good episode. And it was, the show is so twisted because it has some of the rhythms of sweeter things like rom-cominess or coming of age. But it's Gilead fucked up, prom from hell. And you know, it's engaging to watch. But also, I think this episode for some reason got me feeling the way I used to feel The Handmaid's Tale more than any of the ones we've seen so far, which is, Oh, God, I wish these poor people could just get out of this situation, you know? And I'm like, am I ready for another four seasons of that? I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[03:07] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[03:07] But I enjoy watching it.

Speaker 2:
[03:09] There was a particular scene that was when the old men came into the ball.

Speaker 6:
[03:14] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[03:15] And Agnes was facing in the other, all the girls were facing in the other direction.

Speaker 6:
[03:19] Yeah, those dads.

Speaker 2:
[03:21] And the old man comes behind her. I mean, that's not much different than June and Fred, really. It's not.

Speaker 6:
[03:28] It's not. The way the dance was structured with the young guys first, who were all so kind of nervous and it felt sweet. And then the old guys come in and it just felt so fucked up and wrong.

Speaker 5:
[03:44] It's bait and switch. I mean, the girls had this moment of, okay, this might not actually be too bad. And then they're faced with the reality, which is, no, you don't get the younger good-looking commanders. You're going to get these fossils. I mean, honestly.

Speaker 2:
[04:07] I think it's also dangling the carrot in front of the boys as well.

Speaker 5:
[04:11] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[04:12] Yeah, I mean, I really thought the structure of the ball where the younger commanders came in first and then the older ones. I'm sure there's an in-story reason for that. But to me, it felt like it was more of a narrative thing for us, you know, to sort of feel like, oh, maybe this is not so bad. And then when the old guys came in and the camera just panned back and you see all these guys dancing with all these young girls, and it's like, oh my god, this is like, this is Gilead.

Speaker 5:
[04:43] Yeah, and Suda might said it. She said, you know, the more high ranking commanders would come in later in the evening. So we kind of got that little bit of foreshadowing. But still, for me, the word of the day was unsettling. Watching that scene, Wendy, that you were talking about when they came in, it, because just before that, we had seen them all talking up above, looking down at the girls dancing with the younger commanders. And the commentary that was given during that time, where you realize that it's just as gross as what you were thinking it was going to be. Like, they give you this moment of, oh, like Jason, you said, sweetness. And then, no, this is what they're really going to be faced with. And what I thought about it was with the handmaids, they knew they wanted to get out. Like, they wanted to escape. These girls don't know anything different. They're following their upbringing. And even if they want to escape, they're not really talking about it other than Becca.

Speaker 6:
[06:03] Yep. They're not aware of an alternative. So they're sort of figuring themselves out. There's their awakening, like there's in this period of life where they're feeling things they've never felt before. And sometimes those, their internal reality doesn't match up with the way their society is forced and, I mean, structured and forcing them to do things. But they don't, I mean, when you're young, you don't know. You don't know that you can speak out for an alternative. And they really can't anyway. I mean, it doesn't matter how old you are, Gilead is stuck with what you get.

Speaker 2:
[06:46] Not unless you're provided with that information either from, you know, like in today's age, from the internet, from our friends, from social media, you know, kids get lots of different things and they get to kind of choose what they're gonna accept and what they're not gonna accept. But these girls have only had one thing for the most part.

Speaker 6:
[07:05] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[07:06] And their alternatives are to go out and be sluts and whores, right? That's what they think. That's what they've been taught.

Speaker 6:
[07:14] Yeah, and maybe end up in the colonies or something, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[07:18] Or have their fingers taken off or their tongues removed or...

Speaker 5:
[07:23] And remember, Agnes said, the girls like us from the best houses were matched with the most powerful commanders. It's because of their family status that this is their situation even more.

Speaker 6:
[07:39] And it's interesting that like Shunammite is... that's good for her. They're the prize because she wants the cars and the fancy houses and stuff like that.

Speaker 2:
[07:49] Well, she thinks she does.

Speaker 6:
[07:50] She thinks she does, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[07:51] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[07:53] The reality might be different when she gets there. It might.

Speaker 6:
[07:57] Yeah. Probably will. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[08:00] Let's break into points. And who wants to go first?

Speaker 2:
[08:06] I'll go first.

Speaker 5:
[08:07] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[08:10] I've really liked that. I'm kind of surprised based on how far I think we went in like episode one, how slow down it's become. But I really like it that they're giving us so much time to know these girls and know what their lives were like before they became women. I'm saying that in quotes. And, you know, how they're small kind of coming to realities. And I really think what you're seeing is these tiny little cracks in the belief system that they have been, you know, raised so strongly in. I mean, these are the girls that they had the best chance to make pious girls out of because their entire lives have been controlled and structured. And they only know what they've been fed. But you can see it's kind of fracturing from the inside out. And I know we're seeing small fractures, but I believe that's how it's going to start. So they're raised in this intensely controlled, truly cult-like environment. Everything they're told is the absolute truth to them. You know, they have to be clean, they have to be moral. Their lives have been divinely ordered by a higher power. But as they get older and become more aware, I think reality is starting to bleed through the edges of that story that they've been told. Agnes is raised to believe that getting her period is a divine gift, that she needs to stay pure for her God and her future husband. But then she's violated multiple times. She learns that she has no power even over her own body. And I think that Gilead doesn't, they haven't really given Agnes a way to express what has happened to her, a language, or even permission. She's not allowed to talk about what's happened to her. She knows enough about the world that she lives in to know that there's no one she can tell that to. She can't even name what happened to her. She hasn't even told her friends.

Speaker 6:
[10:42] She doesn't even know for sure.

Speaker 2:
[10:44] Right, right. Well, I mean, she knows the first one. Yeah, she knows the first one.

Speaker 6:
[10:49] Knows the first one. But she said in this episode, you know, I don't even know what happened. But she knows she was violated.

Speaker 2:
[10:57] And so that gap of what she's been raised on and what she's always been told, that Gilead is about obedience, purity and safety, right? We're doing this to keep the women safe. And what actually happens to her creates this internal split that she's obviously not fully reconciled to. She's not protected within Gilead. And she's coming to that realization. And I believe that's where the crack is going to begin. You know, it's not going to be handmaids like the handmaids, you know, killing their commanders in the middle of the night. This is going to be more subtle and slow. And I think that's why, like, I've seen a couple people talk about how it's kind of slowed down. But I think that's why, because this isn't going to be Shunammite rising up one day, and this is going to be slow little cracks that we see.

Speaker 6:
[12:00] Because the handmaids had their lives ripped away. And it's when you are used to things being one way that you kind of like, and all of a sudden you're enslaved, no, you're going to try to figure out how to fucking fight back.

Speaker 2:
[12:15] But yeah, like you're saying. And they're never going to forget about the world they came from.

Speaker 6:
[12:19] Yeah, that difference. But these girls are growing up in this, and they're just sort of feeling like, oh, maybe this isn't what I want, but this is all that reality is, right? So it's got to be slower. They're not just going to be fight back.

Speaker 5:
[12:31] But even with The Handmaids, it took them time to be able to pull off what they did. It wasn't something that happened overnight. And they had the information and support from outside Gilead to be able to do that. These girls, they have themselves, they don't know. They have nothing. I mean...

Speaker 2:
[12:55] So I think what we're seeing from Agnes is confusion and silence. She hasn't talked about what happened. And this growing sense that like something just doesn't add up here. And I think we're seeing the same thing in some ways from some of the other girls as well. You know, little moments that just are coming out. Like, Becca has lived in that place for probably a long time because we are pretty sure that her father has molested her. And we even saw a bit of Shunammite in this episode. Like, Shunammite has been raised to be a very godly proper girl. But when she sees her friend kind of being torn down for what she knows isn't right, like why would Becca be torn down for something that someone else did to her? She couldn't say no to that alcohol. That wasn't an option. So you know, like we see kind of Shunammite acting out of character there a little bit, even though I think Shunammite is very sassy and has it in her.

Speaker 6:
[14:03] She's a loyal friend. Yeah. She's multifaceted and this episode was a great one for her.

Speaker 2:
[14:08] Oh yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 5:
[14:10] I think it brought, I think it continued to bring out that strength that's in her.

Speaker 6:
[14:15] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[14:15] Because there were a couple of things that happened that she was around or involved in that I feel like really built her character out even more than what we saw in the book.

Speaker 6:
[14:27] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[14:28] And I like it.

Speaker 6:
[14:29] Another small moment, I'm not trying to derail you, but just to make a point of Shunammite is she's clearly jealous of everybody moving on and she's stuck behind. And yet she goes over to Agnes and says, you look beautiful and you're going to be good or you can do this. She's encouraging her. And so that just shows that she's battling with some things, but she's there for her friend.

Speaker 2:
[14:54] She even congratulates Hulda with tears in her eyes because she can see how upset she is, you know, but she does. So like, I just think we're seeing little stress fractures.

Speaker 6:
[15:07] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[15:10] I think that Rowan Blanchard as Shunammite was probably one of the best casting choices that I've seen in this series. And the casting has been fantastic. But she's bringing life to that character that I was hoping she would, and it is not disappointing. There's something special there.

Speaker 6:
[15:33] Talking about what, how it's slower because they're growing up in this system, and also they're younger and they just don't know what the possibilities even could be outside of this life. Daisy's trying to hint. She's saying, you know, I used to talk to guys and they were good guys and we were all fine. You know, just little things like that. I think she's trying to slip in there every once in a while. There's other possibilities than what you're experiencing here, which I think is cool.

Speaker 2:
[16:05] Yeah. She's having a hard time hiding her Toronto, as she would say.

Speaker 6:
[16:12] She very much is.

Speaker 2:
[16:13] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[16:14] Don't touch me.

Speaker 2:
[16:16] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[16:18] I love her. She's so...

Speaker 2:
[16:21] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[16:23] I saw Lucy Halliday on Jimmy Kimmel, and she's the one who plays Daisy. She has a really thick Scottish accent. She's Scottish.

Speaker 2:
[16:33] Oh, really?

Speaker 6:
[16:34] Yeah. She's super animated. If you get a chance to watch that, it's on YouTube. It's great.

Speaker 2:
[16:40] Yeah. That was it for me.

Speaker 5:
[16:47] Okay. So Jason, what do you have?

Speaker 6:
[16:52] I want to talk about Becca because her segments in this really got me, moved me the most. Before I get into the main part, one thing, I actually don't think that her father molested her anymore. Because she, okay, so they're all getting together, all the girls before the dance, and she approaches Agnes, and Agnes is being kind of cold to her, and she doesn't know why. And I think that's because Agnes is mad at her. Not only did you not warn me about your father, but you acted like I'd be safe with him. She said, my dad will take good care of you, promise. And so I think Agnes is sort of wrestling with that. But we see during the dance, the dad, the father daughter part, Becca's beaming when she's dancing with her father. She's smiling. And so when you put those two things together, I think it means that Becca's father didn't molest her. He only does that at work with his patience. And at home, he doesn't do it. And so she doesn't have any idea. I think that's why she would say to her best friend, oh, my father's going to take care of you. And why she's so comfortable with him during the dance.

Speaker 2:
[18:01] I disagree a thousand percent.

Speaker 6:
[18:03] I knew you would.

Speaker 5:
[18:03] And now I have to, I started to veer in that direction, but there's also other, yes, I'm with Wendy. I feel like whatever has happened between them is something that is not, he's not explained it in a disgusting way to her. Like almost like she's his special girl type. I don't know. I just I've wavered back and forth where I think Becca may not have even thought that her father would do that with any of her friends or any other girls. That maybe if he is doing that with her, it's just them and he wouldn't be doing it with anyone else.

Speaker 2:
[18:59] Exactly.

Speaker 6:
[19:00] Originally, she started off from the very first episode clearly being upset that they're entering this phase where they're going to have to find husbands and she didn't want anything to do with it. Then we found out that her father is molesting girls at his work. So you put two together and it's like, okay, she's feeling that way because her father molests her. But now we're getting some evidence that she's comfortable with her father and even telling her friend, you'll be fine with him. So that could mean that she thinks it's just her. But then you also learn that apparently she's gay. She has a huge crush on her best friend, Agnes. So to me, when I put all that together, it means that Becca doesn't want to get married because she's gay. And that's why she's so uncomfortable with all this. You don't need any more reason other than that. So I don't know. We'll see. But that's just what I think is going on.

Speaker 2:
[20:00] I think someone who's been molested by their father and groomed by their father could also very much love their father and be comfortable with their father because it's all they've known. And they, I think, just like Daphne said, they may typically, those people are taught that like, this is our special relationship that no one else knows about. And she, you know, may not believe that anybody else is in danger.

Speaker 6:
[20:34] So, either way, whether Becca is being, was being molested by her father or not, still, she is, I think this episode a lot is about the tension between, I was kind of talking about it before, but what's natural for people and what's forced on them. And for example, Shunammite, she, she kind of talks out of her butt sometimes, but a lot of times she does know what's up more than anybody else. She's knowledgeable and she's worldly. And Hulda is a great contrast because she's naive, but because Shunammite hasn't had her period, and by the end of this, Hulda has, Hulda is considered an adult before Shunammite and held up to a higher standard. And that just doesn't feel fair to me. And then Agnes, she, I'm just touching on a few things that we'll get into deeper later, but Agnes feels attracted to Garth. But this whole ceremony, this ball, is about finding a husband in this transactional way that has nothing to do with authentic love. So it's about what's natural and what's forced on you by this rigid set of values and systems and everything. And when Agnes learns that Garth is going to become a commander soon, she's excited because maybe, you know, what's real for her, her attraction to him could line up with that system, could fit into what she's supposed to do. And so Becca is the biggest example of that. I think she's probably gay. She's not attracted to men. She doesn't want to get married and spend her life pretending to be this thing that she's not. But the, but the thing about rigid systems of behavior and morality is they just don't accommodate the wide variation of what is real for a lot of different kinds of people. And that's why liberalism develops. The dictionary definition of liberalism is willingness to respect and accept behavior or opinions different from one's own, openness to new ideas. And the idea of freedom to me means that you get to do things that aren't to everyone else's tastes. Otherwise, you wouldn't even think about freedom. If everyone just thought the same thing, you would just do what everyone does. But freedom means different people can do things that other people don't like. And so diversity of like thought and appearance and preferences and behavior is all a testament to freedom. But I just felt particularly heartbroken for Becca and all of this, where she's, this guy gives her alcohol or possibly something worse, something else to try to take advantage of her and she gets sick and Daisy takes her into the bathroom and she's throwing up and she's hasn't eaten for two days and she's anxious and Daisy is trying to console her. You'll be okay. Can you get back out there? And then Becca goes, I don't want to go. And that just hit me because I've been in situations not, I mean, I've never been in a situation like that, but where I just don't want to do something, right? And she's stuck in a life that's not for her. And there's so much expected of her that just doesn't align with who she is as a person. And it just seems so exhausting to have to exist in a world like that, where you're going to have to go out and pretend to be this thing that has nothing to do with who you really are. And thinking about that, it made me wonder if that's what it's like for like trans people, like before they decide to transition, that they're just stuck in this whole situation that's not, no, I don't, I don't like the things you're telling me. I have to lie. I don't feel the way you say, I have to be. That's how Becca is. But at least trans people have a choice, right? They can transition. And so Daisy can't really help her here. She says, you know, maybe, you know, there are some good men out there. And Becca says, well, you know, or then Daisy says, Agnes loves you. And she goes, not the way I love her. So Daisy figures out what's going on. And I was thinking maybe Daisy, there's moments like this might help Daisy realize the importance of what Mayday is trying to do. And then later Agnes tries to comfort her, but she doesn't even know what's up with her. You're a desirable match. I know this will not hurt your chances. It's like, she doesn't care about that, Agnes. And then Agnes starts joking about running away with her. And I'm sure Becca was thinking, I wish you were serious about that. Cause I think Becca is actually going to run away. She seems like that's what she's really intent on.

Speaker 2:
[25:10] I'm worried about Becca.

Speaker 5:
[25:11] Yeah, I'm worried about Becca.

Speaker 2:
[25:13] She's, she's kind of spiraling. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[25:16] And I don't blame her. Like I really got a sense of that feeling. Like what would it be like if you were just being forced to do something that wasn't you and everybody around you thought, no, you should just do what I say. And I would want to run away too. I would want to get out of that situation.

Speaker 2:
[25:33] I mean, there's still lots of gay people in the closet because of, you know, societal pressure or family or religion or, you know, there's still conversion camps out there. I think they just, there was just a ruling that they said they have the right to do it, right? Was that a Supreme Court ruling?

Speaker 5:
[25:54] It was. And they couldn't ban it, that it couldn't be banned.

Speaker 2:
[25:59] Yep.

Speaker 6:
[26:01] So sad.

Speaker 5:
[26:01] It's crazy to, yeah, it's crazy to think about that. I really felt for Becca too, because when she's dancing with the first boy that comes in and he's asking her what she likes to do, and he tells her she's beautiful, I thought, you know, Becca deserves someone who is sweet to her because so much is going, you know, inside is such turmoil. And then she's paired with that older man who is buying her with alcohol and whatever else to loosen her, loosen her up. You can't see my air quotes, but that's what I'm doing.

Speaker 2:
[26:42] That was awful. Like they don't have the right to say no. No.

Speaker 5:
[26:47] And you're getting one side of the spectrum all the way to the other side. Where again, it's that carrot of, it could be a genuine person or it could be an entitled asshole.

Speaker 6:
[27:01] Predator. I mean, I was just thinking, I feel so lucky as this, as a heterosexual white male in America to be the kind of person that where my natural wants and desires pretty much a lot of it anyway matches up with what society expects of me. But if you're lucky enough to be that kind of a person where your society matches up with what you want, then that doesn't mean that it's okay to say, fuck all the people who don't feel that way, you know? That's where we have to just take a show like this. That's one of the great things about a show like this is it can give you an experience, a little taste of what it would be like to be an indifferent kind of person who's judged harshly by society for no good reason, you know? So that's one of the blessings of these kind of shows, in my opinion.

Speaker 5:
[28:01] Yeah. All right. Well, I'm going to segue into Daisy slash Daisy and Becca because we've kind of touched on it already. I agree. I think Daisy got insight in this episode into what these girls are really going to be going through or are going through and maybe learned a little bit more of the importance of her being there even though she's still telling Garth, I need to get out of here. Like you need to get me out of here. Starting with when she's standing in the hallway with the tray of towels and the older commander comes in and is basically telling her, God created all of us, but he took his time with you, didn't he? Perhaps if you're a good girl, this white will become green and you ripe. She, he was touching her arm, like she was not happy about that. I don't blame her for reacting the way that she did, telling him not to touch her and fight, you know, even telling Garth, sorry, I wasn't prepped for perverts. And that's because-

Speaker 6:
[29:20] You should have been prepped for perverts, that's what I thought.

Speaker 5:
[29:23] Yeah, Daisy's world.

Speaker 6:
[29:24] I'm not saying about her, I'm saying that Mayday should have given him some tools to deal with shit like that.

Speaker 5:
[29:30] I mean, she, you can tell with her when she's like composing herself to speak and she, this was a gut reaction because this isn't what her life has been like. She hasn't been exposed to this in person like this, to have someone being that way, because it's not accepted anywhere else for people to, for men of that age to be touching her like that, because she's still a girl. It absolutely does. But it's not something that's accepted. So it's not something maybe that's seen all the time. Yeah. And then we're starting to see this little bit of trust that I think is building is when Shunammite brings the intoxicated Becca to Daisy and asks her to get, take care of her because she's falling and she's drunk basically. And Daisy just does it. Like she takes Becca in. And I think, again, I think there is this building trust between them that if you go back to episode one and two, you didn't see, but it's starting to become a connection point of being there for each other. And I think that was another thing that was really highlighted in this episode is how they are there for each other and supporting each other. Even if it's something that could get them in trouble, because Shunammite could have gotten in trouble for leaving that room and doing what she did. But Shunammite also knows that what will happen to Becca if she's found to be that way is probably much worse than what would happen to Shunammite. And so she takes it upon herself to...

Speaker 6:
[31:32] Takes a risk.

Speaker 5:
[31:34] Yeah, she takes a risk to take her to Daisy. And that whole conversation that Daisy has with Becca, I agree. I think it's going to show Daisy really the importance of what she's doing, and it might make her feel a little more committed to doing what she can, even beyond what she was doing. Because now she sees the cost that these girls are having to pay to be in this world, that they never asked to be in in the first place, like they've just grown up in it. And Daisy even points out to Becca that Shuna might risk a lot, like her friends love her.

Speaker 2:
[32:22] She did.

Speaker 5:
[32:23] And yeah, but I also loved that little moment of levity when she's, when Daisy's trying to tell her, you know, God loves you and he has something special in store for you. And that's what the aunts say. And Becca's like, they don't say that.

Speaker 6:
[32:41] You're like, oh, well they say the thing about God loving you.

Speaker 5:
[32:45] They do, yeah. But then Becca's also asking about running away, which again, I feel like we're leaning in that direction where she's going to try to run away, escape in some way.

Speaker 2:
[32:57] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[32:57] I don't know how, but I'm very worried for Becca. Yeah. I think she's getting pushed to the edge of what she can handle.

Speaker 2:
[33:08] And as it gets closer and closer to what she knows is inevitable.

Speaker 5:
[33:13] Yeah. And they're getting closer and closer and they're seeing what it actually is.

Speaker 2:
[33:19] Right. They said that the matches are like a couple of days or a week or something. It takes.

Speaker 5:
[33:28] It takes a little time.

Speaker 2:
[33:29] Yeah. But I mean, we should see it soon. If not next week. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[33:34] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[33:35] Or next episode.

Speaker 5:
[33:37] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[33:40] It's. But Daisy too, she's saying to Garth, so you're still working on getting me out of here, right? And he goes, you got to prove you're worth the trouble. And when he says stuff like that, I'm like, well, she's trapped there. And I mean, I already said this last episode, but it makes me wonder, what did she, how did she get there? What did she agree to? Are there terms? Why did she do it? Like she doesn't seem to be feel that drawn to the mission of stopping Gilead herself. She's just more like, well, I owe these people, so I'm going to do a favor, but I don't know what the favor is. And am I done yet? Because I really want to get out of here. And it makes me wonder if June was involved getting her in there. And I just hope that we can find out what brought her there.

Speaker 2:
[34:23] I think June was because she asked.

Speaker 6:
[34:24] How much agency she has.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[34:27] You know?

Speaker 5:
[34:28] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[34:28] Did you think in that scene where he said that to her, did you think he was going to kiss her? I thought he might, he leaned in real close.

Speaker 6:
[34:35] It seemed like it, but it was just to make it look like he was punishing her because somebody was coming, I think. It was a weird moment though.

Speaker 2:
[34:41] Yeah. I was like, what are they saying here?

Speaker 5:
[34:45] I think he likes Agnes, I think he likes Agnes. I do.

Speaker 6:
[34:50] I don't.

Speaker 5:
[34:51] I do.

Speaker 2:
[34:53] I think he's, I wrote this down, I'm a little worried that he might try to get close to Agnes just for his mission. Yep.

Speaker 6:
[35:06] Absolutely. And it's going to leader on it. He's going to be heartbroken.

Speaker 2:
[35:11] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[35:11] And I think if he does like anyone, just because I know how these stories work, it's got to be Daisy, not Agnes.

Speaker 2:
[35:23] He's a good actor. I have a whole point about him.

Speaker 5:
[35:26] Yeah. Well, why don't we be, I've, that's all pretty much I had on that. So Wendy, why don't you transition to that so we can keep going in this discussion? I will just talk about Garth.

Speaker 2:
[35:42] I mean, I think we've said it all though. Some things that we overheard were, they said that Commander Mackenzie is going to be meeting with the Japanese. We think he might be brokering a deal to get artillery.

Speaker 6:
[35:59] Was that what they said?

Speaker 2:
[36:01] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[36:01] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[36:02] Which means they're not make... Does that mean they're not making artillery in Gilead?

Speaker 6:
[36:07] And because also, I don't know if it was in that scene or some other scene, he said something about, there's progress on the front and unfortunately, we have to keep fighting these rebels or whatever. So we know that there's still war going on and maybe they're short on artillery and that's why they need to make a deal with the Japanese or something.

Speaker 2:
[36:24] Yep. And then he pulls away the senior commander dancing with Agnes because he's urgently needed in the war room. And yeah, I thought the same thing you thought, is he just toying with Agnes to get close to her as Daisy basically told him to.

Speaker 6:
[36:42] Yeah, you get close to her, I mean.

Speaker 2:
[36:45] Yeah. And then later we learn that he's going to be a commander in a few weeks. But I think Agnes is very naïve to think that, I mean, he's going to be the lower of the commanders, like he's not gonna be eligible for Agnes.

Speaker 6:
[37:04] He has optimism bias.

Speaker 2:
[37:06] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[37:06] Yes. But also, his father is someone.

Speaker 2:
[37:12] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[37:13] Yeah, right. That's what the guy said, he was like, congratulations on being a commander, we need men like you and your father to help in the whatever. And I had been thinking that Garth was maybe Canadian and, but no, I don't think so anymore. My guess is his father is like a big Gilead commander dude and he's rebelling against his country and his father.

Speaker 5:
[37:37] And the thing is though, if his father is a big Gilead commander dude, that might make him eligible to marry Agnes.

Speaker 6:
[37:47] That's true. Now we're having optimism bias.

Speaker 5:
[37:52] No, I know, I know, I know. It's not going to work out that way. I don't think it is, but I'm just saying.

Speaker 6:
[37:58] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[37:59] Because I thought it was really interesting that he, the other commander danced with Agnes for what? All of 30 seconds before Mackenzie was talking to Garth and he was whisked away.

Speaker 6:
[38:16] Garth came in and suddenly we're in a Jane Austen novel.

Speaker 5:
[38:19] Yeah. And I could be wrong. I so could be wrong, but my brain is like working and thinking, I don't know, did Commander, was that real or did Commander Mackenzie create that situation to get him away from his daughter? Because he could and that could be, you know what, suspension of disbelief, whatever, I'm just saying. Things on the show don't happen just for no reason.

Speaker 2:
[38:52] And they've showed Mackenzie as being kind of a kind person than the other commanders in general, and that he does seem to care about Agnes. So, hey, I'm not saying it couldn't happen.

Speaker 6:
[39:10] And Garth thanked him for, I'm sure you had something to do with that, so he could be like trying to promote him into commander position, so he will be eligible for his daughter. Maybe I think that's a possibility, but I would guess that it was more just trying to create a situation in the dance that would push Daisy and, not Daisy, Agnes and Garth together, just because there's this whole love triangle story. And I think that Garth is, because of what Daisy said, you get close to her, that he's playing into it. He sees that she has a crush on him, he even knows, because Daisy told him that. And so he's teasing her a little bit and then complimenting her dancing. And for Agnes, it's such a huge moment because she's never even touched a boy that she liked before this. So I'm sure just it's her head is spinning. And who knows if he even has touched a girl. I mean, I do think there's a possibility. I think right now, my guess is that he's getting close to her to get information and that's it. But he could start falling for her too.

Speaker 2:
[40:13] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[40:14] I'm just saying the way my brain works, I'm always trying to figure stuff out. And when I see stuff like this, it makes me think about this is what we're presented with. This is what it looks like it could be, but what could it also be? And it doesn't mean I'm trying to create scenarios that may not happen. I'm just trying to think logistically as a storyteller, what might be happening or what we might see.

Speaker 2:
[40:39] But I do think if we're painting, it's Kyle, right? Kyle McKenzie.

Speaker 5:
[40:43] Yeah, Kyle McKenzie.

Speaker 2:
[40:44] If we're painting him as a kind guy who really cares about Agnes, it might make sense that he wants her with someone who seems to be kind. I mean, I'm sure he has no suspicions about Garth and seems to be loyal and young and that Agnes would be familiar with, so it may be less of a blow.

Speaker 6:
[41:07] Maybe he even notices that Agnes likes him. I mean, that's giving him a lot of credit, but it's possible.

Speaker 2:
[41:13] Yes, he's giving him a lot of credit.

Speaker 5:
[41:15] Think about him as a father looking at his daughter dancing with a man older than he is.

Speaker 2:
[41:22] Yeah, I mean, some of those men were old enough to probably be great grandfathers.

Speaker 5:
[41:29] Yeah, imagine what that was like, and he's standing there witnessing it.

Speaker 6:
[41:35] It just went from being this cute ball of all these young guys who probably haven't had much experience with women either, but they seem smitten and they're all awkward, and it was sweet in a way to being just so wrong.

Speaker 5:
[41:53] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[41:54] I can't help but laugh at some of this stuff, but it was awful.

Speaker 5:
[41:56] It was hard. I feel like this one, I mean, unsettling was the one word that I kept coming up with throughout taking notes for this episode. It was just very unsettling. We got to a point in the episode and then the rest of it was like, oh my God, this is just hard to watch. Wendy, continue. Sorry. I feel like we went off on a tangent.

Speaker 2:
[42:22] I think that's all I have about Garth. I think we've talked a lot about Garth.

Speaker 6:
[42:27] I have a little bit more. Should I go on? Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[42:30] Yeah, keep going.

Speaker 6:
[42:31] Okay. I'll take this as my point. So they're dancing and then he gets called away too, which was a great little moment where she said, I have a question for you and he goes, go on. Then he was actually talking in his earpiece. She started to say it and then, I don't know, there was something cool about that. I like all their scenes together.

Speaker 2:
[42:53] I also thought he might be faking that.

Speaker 6:
[42:57] Why?

Speaker 5:
[42:57] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[42:58] I don't know why.

Speaker 5:
[42:59] Because he doesn't want to be asked something he can't answer.

Speaker 2:
[43:02] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[43:03] Oh, interesting.

Speaker 5:
[43:04] That's what I thought too, Wendy. I wasn't sure.

Speaker 2:
[43:06] I thought maybe.

Speaker 6:
[43:07] Maybe, yeah. There's a lot of maybes in this.

Speaker 2:
[43:09] They're all interesting.

Speaker 6:
[43:10] I know. Like it could go a lot of different, interesting ways.

Speaker 5:
[43:12] It can. We're still in the early times.

Speaker 6:
[43:16] So Aunt Gabana pulls Agnes away. I'm taking you to some commanders who would like to meet you. You're soon to be matched with a husband whose rank befits your status. And then another huge tonal liplash going from this ball to what looks like some kind of an interrogation scene deep in the bowels of like a police station.

Speaker 5:
[43:36] They must have computers. I know we talked about this at one point. We're talking about computers. They must because it honestly looked like a huge Zoom screen.

Speaker 6:
[43:45] It did. And there's a spotlight on her face and there's all these commanders, a wall of commanders on this video screen watching her. And so I guess that it made it sound like what I thought when the ant pulled her away was someone has singled you out and we're going to take you to the next phase to see if you can pass on. But no, it seemed like no one in particular had chosen her. But because she's in a high house, powerful house, she's gone into this room where she can audition for all these particular high commanders, something like that, right?

Speaker 5:
[44:22] Gilead Idol. Now she's going to sing a song for everyone. Honestly, though, I think it's better that they were on a screen versus all being in the room.

Speaker 6:
[44:31] Can you imagine the stress on her sitting behind some table or something? So she gets all nervous and stumbles over her words and starts crying. And it's because what I was talking about earlier, this isn't what she wants. She's having to go through the motions of something totally unnatural to her that's being forced on her. Then, yeah, she finds out Garth is going to be a commander. And so she's like, all I can think about are his eyes, his touch, his heat. I felt the world was filled with possibility and hope. But earlier, she had said in voiceover, optimism bias is a term I've heard recently from a psychiatrist. It's when you believe something good might happen despite all evidence to the contrary, which is interesting to me. I think she was saying that future Agnes was saying that because she remembered being so optimistic when she was young and then being disappointed by the world. And also maybe that ends up being a pattern for her. And now she's in her, you know, she's seen a psychiatrist about it. But I think if she does have that characteristic, it's a good characteristic for a main character to have because yes, it can lead you to being disappointed with things if you're overly optimistic, but also can help you get through things and keep that North Star to keep fighting for, you know, because thinking that it might actually be able to happen. And then last thing I had about this is it's interesting that Agnes has this crush on this guardian slash driver, who's also a spy and on track to be a commander, which very much reminds me of her mother. She's, she takes after her mother a little bit. The big difference is Nick was a spy for Gilead and Garth is a spy for Mayday, which in my book puts him head and shoulders above. Because he's not really in the system as much as he's infiltrated in order to try to help take it down.

Speaker 5:
[46:29] Yeah. I also like that Agnes said, or explained that the before and after of this, where before they got their period, they were children. After getting it, they become married women. But this dance is their opportunity to be teenagers. It's their one night.

Speaker 6:
[46:51] One night, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[46:52] That they get to be teenagers. And she also says, it was the event that would decide my future. How many people could say that about their prom?

Speaker 6:
[47:06] When I heard that, I thought I wondered, I wanted to ask Wendy if you went to prom with your husband.

Speaker 2:
[47:14] I did, my senior prom.

Speaker 6:
[47:15] I thought so. So it's, you can relate, right?

Speaker 2:
[47:19] I made him rent a tux with a royal blue cummerbund.

Speaker 6:
[47:26] To match your dress?

Speaker 5:
[47:31] Yes. Wendy, my dress was also royal blue.

Speaker 2:
[47:34] And I wore white arm, total arm length gloves. Can you say the 80s?

Speaker 5:
[47:43] Not without that.

Speaker 6:
[47:44] I had a crush on this girl, Jill, for a long time and she just wanted to be friends. And I was heartbroken. And I asked her to prom anyway. And she said, as friends, and I said, yeah, yep, totally. It's totally fine. And I really got that in my head. It's not going to have any expectations. It's just going to be fun. And then at the end of the night, we had so much fun because I didn't have any expectations and I wasn't trying to force anything. And then we had this amazing kiss at her door. And then afterwards, she didn't want to just be friends anymore. So it was like incredible.

Speaker 5:
[48:19] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:
[48:21] Did you have a relationship?

Speaker 6:
[48:22] Yeah, we did after that.

Speaker 2:
[48:25] Well, maybe like she just needed to get to know you.

Speaker 6:
[48:28] Yeah, I think I was being weird because I was trying to make something happen. Trying too hard. Yeah, trying too hard. And then when I gave that up, we had a blast.

Speaker 2:
[48:37] I think my husband and I were like, we were friends. We weren't great friends. I mostly hung out with his brother who was kind of my friend group, but I think like he thought I was a little kid. We're only a year apart, but he kind of hung with the older kids and I kind of hung with the younger kids. And so I think it wasn't till I was 16 that he actually like looked at, you know, like, oh, she's, she's grown up, you know.

Speaker 5:
[49:04] That's awesome.

Speaker 2:
[49:05] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[49:06] That's your coming of age story.

Speaker 2:
[49:08] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[49:10] Okay. All right. So yeah, I feel like we, I'm going to, let's talk about the ball itself. Because we've talked about a lot of the pieces of it already. But they were just the vibe right from the beginning. You've got Jehoshua leading a prayer in the circle, like in the circle. And Este is filming everything on this old, what looked like an old school camcorder that they probably found in a house somewhere who even knows. But then we also get the behind the scenes of the ball with Shunamite and Hulda and Shunamite is, you know, being a little misty Quigley with her mushroom tea that evidently induces menstruation according to Hulda.

Speaker 6:
[50:18] It worked. The tea worked. Oh, fuck you.

Speaker 5:
[50:20] Oh, man. I feel like, I feel like, again, we got to see some sides of Shunamite that I always thought she was like this rule follower, and she ended up being a little bit more rebellious in this episode, I think, with the tea and just her and Hulda kind of, it's kind of like the little girls at the big fancy balls. They're the little sisters who have to hide upstairs at the top of the stairs behind the railing and are peeking down and watching everyone dance. I feel like that's what it was like for them in this.

Speaker 6:
[50:55] I had maybe suspend my disbelief a little bit that the Plums would even be a part of this. I guess they're there kind of observing and encouraging their friends or whatever. But it was fun to have them in the episode. I think that's probably the big reason why it happened there.

Speaker 5:
[51:11] I still, I don't think that they got to see everything that was going on with first the younger men than the older men. Because Shuna might just kept talking about the older commanders because she wants to have a Mercedes basically. She wants to have triplets so she can get more than what this other girl who had had twins got. So she wants that and she, she's just, they're talking about their wants and needs, what they're looking for. And it was just kind of teenagers basically, who are stealing liquor from the cabinet, having a little drink and viewing things from the outside, but really not getting to see everything. And Esti even like before they goes out is talking about somewhere out there is your future husband and you're going to meet him and you'll share a life and have kids and blah, blah, blah. And you'll love and obey him as he'll love and protect you. And I'm like, you're gaslighting these poor girls into believing that they're going to have something really beautiful and special and it probably is just going to be emotionless and devastating. And we have the father's dance, which we talked about, which Agnes dancing with her dad just gave me more fuel for my, I don't know that Commander Mackenzie is really on board for Agnes being at his place where he's going to be giving her away to someone else.

Speaker 2:
[52:59] I thought that was also one of the very few traditions that exist here in the US. And maybe other places too. Is the father daughter dance at the wedding? That's pretty, I mean, a lot of people do that.

Speaker 5:
[53:18] I also have to wonder what other commanders are thinking of watching, because not everyone, like Dr. Grove is a father, but he's not a commander. I have to wonder what some of these other commander fathers were thinking watching their daughters dance with these older men. How are you okay with it? I'm questioning it, how are you okay with this?

Speaker 2:
[53:42] Or are they just thinking about what that will do for their clout? Yeah, I'm afraid some of them, that's what it is.

Speaker 6:
[53:50] Status and power, my daughter will be better off if she's with someone who has, I mean, that's kind of what they were talking about in an earlier episode about how women have no power, so the best they can do is to marry the most powerful person that they can land. And that ends up meaning an older guy a lot of the time.

Speaker 5:
[54:10] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[54:11] I'm not trying to make a case for it, I'm just trying to figure out what they might be thinking.

Speaker 5:
[54:13] No, no, not at all. Not at all.

Speaker 6:
[54:16] But I also wonder, why don't these older commanders have wives already?

Speaker 2:
[54:21] Yeah, I know. I thought about that too.

Speaker 5:
[54:24] I know.

Speaker 2:
[54:25] Because generally, women outlive their husbands.

Speaker 6:
[54:30] I have a comment and we'll talk about that.

Speaker 2:
[54:32] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[54:33] So I think Mackenzie already has pretty much more power than anyone else in that room. So-

Speaker 2:
[54:45] Except Judd, right?

Speaker 5:
[54:46] Except Judd. So why would he want, why wouldn't he, I mean, he doesn't need anymore, really.

Speaker 6:
[54:56] If you think that the women who marry the more powerful commanders are better off, then you might want your daughter to marry a powerful commander.

Speaker 2:
[55:08] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[55:08] Yeah. I guess.

Speaker 6:
[55:10] I guess.

Speaker 2:
[55:11] She'll have a nice big house and lots of Martha's.

Speaker 6:
[55:14] He'll protect and take care of her if you buy into that. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[55:18] I liked that the first commander that danced with Agnes was talking about skipping the dance refresher to watch a movie about a giant shark terrorizing a town. She actually knew that it was Jaws. It was cute. It was kind of a cute moment. It kind of is this innocence moment. It's this moment of connection between them. I really liked that.

Speaker 6:
[55:41] And he seemed kind of smitten and nervous himself. Which I thought was really endearing and to remind yourself. He's a commander in Gilead. Don't sympathize.

Speaker 5:
[55:51] Right.

Speaker 2:
[55:52] And how did she know about that? She knew about that because her father took her to the beach and told her that story, which is also another little notch for Kyle McKenzie.

Speaker 5:
[56:01] Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm just maybe for as much as I think Paula wants to get her out of the house, I think McKenzie is not quite ready for it to happen. So we'll see. We're going to see what happens.

Speaker 6:
[56:17] Wait, is that a notch for him? Because the first movie I ever saw was Jaws when I was six years old, and it freaked me out. And to think of your parents taking you to the beach and going, let me tell you this story.

Speaker 5:
[56:30] I'm okay.

Speaker 2:
[56:31] I wasn't allowed to watch Jaws, which was the very few parental interventions I had. And I was super incredibly jealous that my sister got to watch it.

Speaker 6:
[56:41] I cried all the way through the movie.

Speaker 5:
[56:45] Well, there's also this really disturbing scene with the older men watching from above talking about it being a fine-looking batch. But then Judd kind of puts them in their place, like, you know.

Speaker 6:
[57:00] Have some respect or something. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[57:02] Yeah, because they're like, oh, I think these young guns have wet their appetites. Now let's show them where they will eat. And Judd is just like, act worthy, shall we, because of your future wives.

Speaker 6:
[57:14] Yeah. They're trying to paint Judd as possibly somewhat of a good guy too.

Speaker 2:
[57:21] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[57:23] Yeah. I mean, so far, you know.

Speaker 6:
[57:27] So you can trust any of these guys for sure though. After Wharton, I-

Speaker 5:
[57:32] No.

Speaker 6:
[57:33] Right.

Speaker 5:
[57:33] Oh, I didn't trust Wharton from the beginning.

Speaker 6:
[57:36] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[57:36] I did not. Nothing.

Speaker 6:
[57:38] It's hard with that Josh guy. He's always playing good guys.

Speaker 5:
[57:43] Yeah. Agnes talks about in a voiceover, how sometimes girls would get lucky and the men would be younger. Like Penny got lucky with Judd because he's younger and more attractive. But it's usually the girls that are from the highest houses that are paired with a powerful commander. And power usually equals age and experience in Gilead for some reason. And she mentions that she hopes that they all hoped they would be the exception or they would get the one that was younger or kinder. And again, that scene that we've already talked about of them standing back too, as the men walked in. And I honestly was thinking it's because the girls needed every second to prepare themselves for what they were going to be looking at.

Speaker 2:
[58:48] Yep.

Speaker 5:
[58:52] So, yeah, I mean, the ball itself was to me a bait and switch and setting them up for...

Speaker 2:
[59:02] Yeah, it was beautiful. That was the one.

Speaker 6:
[59:05] Oh, yeah, the dance, the synchronized dance.

Speaker 2:
[59:09] Yeah, Lydia seemed to enjoy that part. Even just the dancing with the girls and the men, it was beautiful.

Speaker 6:
[59:18] It's like, yeah, there's just this juxtaposition of beauty and even sweetness with twistedness. And even the dance, the synchronized dance, which I thought was beautiful, it also was like, okay, but they're kind of like trying to attract these commanders. So it's like the commanders came to a smorgasbord of young women, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5:
[59:41] A buffet. It's a buffet. It's like a cattle call. I mean, they're on models lining up to be pit for an advertising campaign.

Speaker 6:
[59:49] Yeah, great batch we got this year.

Speaker 5:
[59:51] Yeah, like it's cattle. Yep. Yeah, no. So I think that's pretty much all I had because we've talked about so much of this already.

Speaker 2:
[60:06] I only have notes left.

Speaker 6:
[60:08] I got a few, a couple points.

Speaker 2:
[60:10] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[60:11] Well, Jason.

Speaker 6:
[60:14] We talked a lot about Shuna. I loved her story in this. We didn't really hit on the point of how she's very jealous. She considers herself worldly and yet she hasn't had her period yet. And all these other girls are advancing. And she knows she's eager for this life of marrying and into a great household and having all these comforts of life and everything. And I think it's funny that she deals with the indignity of having to watch all these girls advance by at least getting to boss naive poor Hulda around and school her on the ways of the world. And I love the moment when she says, Hulda, God has made you ineligible for a reason. You could benefit from growing up a little. And Hulda says, I never thought about it like that before. Do you think God made you ineligible for the same reason?

Speaker 5:
[61:04] I loved that.

Speaker 6:
[61:05] She said it sort of earnestly, but I think she very well knew that it was a sick burn. You know?

Speaker 2:
[61:11] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[61:12] And then, but then, you know, the bell rings and she might actually, I think seemed upset before even she knew who it was because it's like, ah, another one is going on without me. And then it was the worst possible one, Hulda. And she goes, the tea worked. And I just thought, what a great little storytelling thing, but you feel bad for, I felt bad for Sheena might like.

Speaker 2:
[61:36] Yeah, I did too. You could see the tears in her eyes. She was very emotional.

Speaker 6:
[61:42] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[61:42] She had to plumb up.

Speaker 6:
[61:45] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[61:45] To use her own words. She had, she had to plumb up and-

Speaker 6:
[61:51] And congratulate her.

Speaker 5:
[61:53] Yeah, she did.

Speaker 6:
[61:55] And she did. Yeah, I like her so much more in the show than in the book. And then my other one is just about the ball, how there's so much etiquette around it and the way Paula coaches Agnes, what to do if a commander offers her drink, which is basically to sort of feign act like you're not into it, but not too much. And if he insists, then you say yes. And she goes, I accept with grace, but not too much grace. You're a godly girl, not a prig, which means a prude. And Paula's basically encouraging her to go along with it because I guess Paula just wants, well, she says, you know, I'm trying to help you and you could read that as, yeah, she's trying to help her get a good husband. So she doesn't want her to be too standoffish, but it all, I don't know. I imagine mothers and daughters have conversations kind of like this. I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[62:57] I never did.

Speaker 5:
[63:00] Well, Prigg Jason, a Prigg is a person who behaves in a smugly, self-righteous, arrogant, or excessively proper manner, often lecturing others on manners or morals. According to the internet. That's what a Prigg is, because I had never heard that term before.

Speaker 6:
[63:17] She didn't want her to be too prickly with these guys. She wants her to be welcoming, but then you're sort of like, don't you know that if someone offers her a drink, it could be spiked and she might be trying to take advantage of her and you're just sending her into the lion's den with that?

Speaker 2:
[63:32] I mean, but based on what Lydia said, they don't have a choice. Like they might be able to. Coquettishly say no first. But if they insist, they have to do it. I mean, that's what Lydia said. Training them to do whatever commanders tell them to do.

Speaker 6:
[63:52] Right. But I mean, Paula seemed to be saying, you know, this is going to happen and you should just accept the drink because this is how you're going to get married. And I don't know, it's like, can you warn her that, or I guess there's nothing she can do, but Paula didn't seem worried at all about like sexual assault or anything like that.

Speaker 5:
[64:13] I liked how Paula was having to explain what a strapless dress was to Agnes.

Speaker 2:
[64:19] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[64:21] Then I'm just trying to look through my notes and see if there's anything we haven't. Oh yeah, we'd already kind of talked about how a difference between The Testaments and Handmaid's Tale is that people have sort of grown up in this system. And I felt that in the first dance with the younger commanders, that they don't seem to have any, they haven't had a lot of experience with women because they're fumbling around with their conversation and everything. And so I was thinking about the timeline. And I think Agnes is maybe about 14, we've thought, and she was maybe four or five when the coup happened. So it seems like Gilead has actually only been a thing for about like nine or 10 years. And so I guess that sort of makes sense that, I mean, the young commander seemed a little older than the women. So they seem like they were in their twenties, you know, they were like 15 or something when this all happened.

Speaker 2:
[65:22] I thought Paula seemed to miss her strapless dress.

Speaker 5:
[65:26] Yeah, I'm just wondering, well, how did you?

Speaker 6:
[65:29] She's made a few comments about the times.

Speaker 2:
[65:32] Yeah, did you?

Speaker 5:
[65:34] Yeah. What's your story, Paula? Because you don't seem super thrilled. I don't think she's thrilled to be in this world.

Speaker 2:
[65:43] I don't seem like it. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[65:45] She's trying her best, though.

Speaker 2:
[65:47] Just off riding her horses.

Speaker 5:
[65:49] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[65:50] Then the last thing, we already talked a lot about the ants, so I'm skipping my notes. But one note is just that I noticed Shunamite said the commanders make requests to the ants and then the ants make the matches. That's interesting. I guess the ants are the ones who actually decide, but probably not that night, which reminded me of in college when I rushed fraternities. And I got into a fraternity and then I quit because I didn't like it and it wasn't for me. But that night felt a lot like this dance where you're going around to different fraternity houses, trying to seem cool and hope you get picked. Very, I don't know, it's not a good feeling.

Speaker 2:
[66:33] Oh, it's gotten so much. I don't know if anybody's seen the sorority process in the south right now. It's kind of nuts. Like people are hiring coaches and organizers to coach them through the rush process of sororities.

Speaker 6:
[66:52] Makes sense.

Speaker 2:
[66:53] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[66:54] It's a dog-eat-dog. Actually, I see I had a couple more points. So about Judd, Commander Judd, Lydia and Vidala. That was interesting. Lydia forcefully tells Judd, these girls cannot have any alcohol. You make sure. And he kind of resists that. And then soon after, he goes over to Vidala and says, Aunt Lydia is slowing down and you and I should discuss our vision of the future. Which felt like he was trying to push Lydia out to an ally with Vidala, who's like maybe the second most powerful aunt or something. And I was thinking maybe Lydia, like who stands up to him, he doesn't want someone who stands up to him. He wants an aunt at the top who he can work with and control. Right?

Speaker 5:
[67:37] Sounds familiar.

Speaker 6:
[67:38] And then she says, she just excuses herself. I have to go. She doesn't say yes. And she seems really uncomfortable with it. She looks over at Lydia, but then later Lydia scolds her for allowing the commanders to give the drinks to the girls. And I just think that's a setup for more of a schism between her and Lydia will go back to Judd and say, okay, what did you have in mind or something like that?

Speaker 5:
[67:59] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[68:00] They're making up a hate triangle there.

Speaker 6:
[68:05] It's a new term. I like it.

Speaker 2:
[68:06] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[68:07] And then last, like I was saying, The Testaments is like a twisted version of Sweeter Things. And when we saw Agnes in Wife Green, and we have seen her in Plum, Purple, back in Handmaid's Tale, we saw her in that color, I think, at one point.

Speaker 5:
[68:30] Pink, and she was in that pink color.

Speaker 6:
[68:33] Yeah, and then now purple and then green. And there's a part of me going, oh my God, June's little girl's growing up, she's now in the Wife Green. And then I'm like, but it's a tragedy, she's stuck in the system where any of that is a thing. But there is a part of me that's nostalgic for her. And it got me thinking about how she's really been a part of this story from the very beginning, going back to the beginning of Handmaid's Tale and where she got ripped away from her parents. And even before that, when June was just pregnant with her. And so it's like this whole story is as much Agnes' story as June's, you know? So it's interesting to think about that. Now we're just more focused in on her, which is great. And I've looked her up, Chase Infinity, she was around 24, I guess, when she filmed this. But I just think she does such a great job of playing younger in this episode. She really believed it was believable.

Speaker 5:
[69:27] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[69:29] That's all my point.

Speaker 2:
[69:30] She's gorgeous too. She's really beautiful.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 4:
[70:01] Go to your happy price, Priceline.

Speaker 5:
[70:06] Yeah. I don't have anything left because we've talked about all of it. So Wendy, what are your notes?

Speaker 2:
[70:16] Day has a video camera. And I think that's the first we've seen of anything like that in Gilead. And I was wondering what you thought she was going to do with the footage.

Speaker 6:
[70:30] You think it's something nefarious?

Speaker 2:
[70:32] I thought it was for the commanders. So they can view their study. Uh-huh, yep.

Speaker 5:
[70:41] That would make sense. I thought maybe she was going to make a propaganda video with it.

Speaker 2:
[70:46] I mean, that's possible as well. I do think that's possible.

Speaker 5:
[70:49] Yeah, like promoting Gilead as a lifestyle choice.

Speaker 6:
[70:57] I had a couple of notes. You want to take turns?

Speaker 2:
[70:59] Sure.

Speaker 6:
[71:00] Just quick ones. So Judd said to Lydia, Lydia, these are not your handmaids from Days Gone By, which, Oh, interesting. That sounds like handmaids are maybe a thing of the past, or it could have just meant that Lydia doesn't, you know, leave the hands anymore.

Speaker 2:
[71:18] That's how I took it. Another little nugget from Kyle McKenzie was in the car on the way back. It was kind of nice between the two of them. And he says, your mother would have been so proud if she could have seen you out there tonight. And you can immediately see that Agnes thinks he's talking about Tabitha. But of course, he's talking about Paula. And her face falls when she realizes that that's who he's talking about.

Speaker 5:
[71:53] Yeah, I thought that was sad because I honestly thought he was talking first about Tabitha.

Speaker 2:
[71:59] I had hoped, yeah. I think my face fell too.

Speaker 5:
[72:04] Paula. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[72:07] And that's it for me. We've talked about everything else.

Speaker 6:
[72:09] I just had one more. One commenter on Spotify, I don't know if we have this in the feedback, but she said, or they said that Paula's comments, repeated comments about Agnes' hair being frizzy suggest racism. And I had not thought about that, but I think that's true. And that, you know, she probably doesn't, or she maybe doesn't think about it consciously like that, just seeing, oh yeah, that hair, it's not good. I want your hair to be more like mine is along those lines. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't grock that before, but yeah.

Speaker 5:
[72:46] Again, I think she wants Agnes out of the house.

Speaker 2:
[72:52] Well, she's getting her wish, right?

Speaker 5:
[72:54] Yeah. Okay, so let's transition into news.

Speaker 6:
[73:33] All right. Bruce Miller talked with Hollywood Reporter. I'm just going to read this one part, because I think it's relevant to what a lot of people have been talking about, including us. They asked him about his thought process on Daisy not being Nicole, as she was in the book. He says, in the novel The Testaments, the Daisy and Agnes characters are very different in age, so they wouldn't ever be together the way they are in the show. I didn't want to make any changes at all, but I felt like I wanted to have Daisy and Agnes physically together and not tell their stories 15 years apart like they do in the book. So it was very hard and I didn't want to do it, but Daisy is not Nicole slash Holly. Holly exists in the series and she's a child. You see her boots in one scene. I don't know. I don't feel like we've seen that yet, or else I missed it.

Speaker 2:
[74:19] No, I don't think so.

Speaker 6:
[74:20] And there are little hints that she's out there, but I tried to change as little else as I could, which I think is why Daisy feels like Nicole, because he tried to change as little else, so he made her just like she was in the book otherwise. Anyways, he goes on, I tried to make June very much a mother figure in Daisy's life, an absent mother figure, but a mother figure she knew. June had the notoriety that Nicole had in the book. It's interesting taking that idea and moving it over to June instead. And I tried to cast someone who looked similar or reminiscent of June. I tried to keep the essence of Nicole as much as possible with our Daisy, but still make her her own character and her own person. I had to make a decision. I didn't want to bend time and tell everybody the time space continuum isn't true. So that means no soap opera aging up. And the reason that Nicole is kind of confusing, seeming like she is, I mean, Daisy is kind of confusing seeming like she is Nicole is because he really tried to keep it close to the book otherwise.

Speaker 2:
[75:23] I've accepted it. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[75:26] I'm curious now what they're gonna, if they're gonna try to make her back story somehow interesting somehow else, you know.

Speaker 2:
[75:35] I think people also could have accepted the aging up. I think that was a possibility, but I'm okay with it.

Speaker 6:
[75:43] Yeah. I think it's a great story that doesn't hinge on Daisy.

Speaker 5:
[75:47] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[75:47] I much would rather that than see them telling separate stories that aren't interwoven.

Speaker 6:
[75:53] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[75:53] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[75:53] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[75:54] It's fun. It's cool to have them interact together at the same point in life and everything.

Speaker 2:
[76:00] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[76:00] Yeah. So I think that was a good decision. Absolutely. Good job, Bruce.

Speaker 2:
[76:06] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[76:08] So now we're gonna transition into some feedback. The first one is from Alice from Hertfordshire, UK. She says, Hello, just discovered the pod. Loving it. Total guess. Do you think Daisy could be Commander Kyle's biological daughter somehow? The way he was talking about giving chocolate to his daughter, and perhaps she doesn't like them anymore. Just didn't seem like he was talking about Agnes. Could be why Daisy has been matched with Agnes. So in a way, they are still sisters. Thanks, Alice. I mean, that's an interesting theory.

Speaker 6:
[76:47] It feels like doing podcasting, there are often theories that feel like they belong on a soap opera to me, and then sometimes they come true. But to me, this feels like one of those. It's a complication that it would need to really add to the story in some way other than just being a crazy twist. You know, there need to be some other like thematic reason for it or something. But they could probably make it work.

Speaker 2:
[77:16] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[77:18] Lisa Orkin says, First, I truly love your show. Thank you. I was a big fan during The Handmaid's Tale. My theory is that Daisy is the Mackenzie's, understanding what it's like for a girl in Gilead. I think Mrs. Mackenzie possibly had her kidnapped. I presume she means smuggled out or something. I know this is a shot in the dark, but for some reason, I think this would be a really good idea. It would give both Agnes and Daisy connection, kindly. Lisa Orkin. Well, there's two votes for that story.

Speaker 2:
[77:52] Yeah. That's interesting. Pat Johnson says, Question, where are all the boy children in Gilead? We don't really see sons or brothers in the houses. I'm thinking not all men can be commanders. Do the boys go to separate schools and what is that like? I read the book and watched the series but have not read The Testaments. Best friendship is discouraged because Gilead knows how strong the sisterhood bond can be. It's dangerous for Gilead. Women working closely together. I wasn't sure I was ready to be back in Gilead, but I'm captured by the Testaments. I like the quiet strength. Big fan of House Podcastica and Wax Episodic Podcasts. See you in Alexandria.

Speaker 6:
[78:41] That's everything. Thanks, Kathy. What about the boys? I don't really know.

Speaker 2:
[78:48] We haven't seen much of that.

Speaker 6:
[78:50] They're separate, clearly. They're being trained to be assholes somewhere.

Speaker 2:
[78:54] We really haven't seen that in Handmaid's Tale either. I think it's because it's a women-focused show. I think I've said that before.

Speaker 6:
[79:03] Yeah, that makes sense. We're focused.

Speaker 2:
[79:06] Maybe we'll see some.

Speaker 6:
[79:07] Yeah, be interesting. Yeah. Probably some military school type thing or something.

Speaker 2:
[79:12] Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[79:15] Tam from Perth says, Hi guys, I've missed having something to really dig deep into, so I was refreshing my TV so much Wednesday morning. It was a bit silly, to be honest. I will admit and join the club of those who probably watching this multiple times. Firstly, engrossed, then again to see what I missed and to try and relay how producers tell this story. The wannabe podcaster in me taking weird notes like this. I was spellbound almost immediately with the color drenching and Hannah's soothing convoys guiding us into her Gilead. Me imagining that dollhouse will provide a real life escape plan or rescue mission if needed. Her voiceover sounded different to when there is dialogue between the characters, sort of like the recording June did at the end of her tale. I liked that differentiation of sound and echo from the rigid, polite, careful conversations in the house. Also, I already hate Paula but love the music they put under the girls running around freely laughing and making it feel like an 80s coming-of-age film. Debbie Harry does that without trying. Are the Pearl Girls high school versions of The Eyes? It's so refreshing knowing these girls are still teenagers who can't have those crazy hormones beaten out of them. I have had three teen girls at once and it was wild. Episode 2, I don't think I've ever felt so uncomfortable watching something on TV. Like, what the actual fuck the whole time except maybe Hannah talking to the cute guardian and her secret smile to herself and Daisy the spy. Episode 3, I just wrote Honey and Politics. It was a lot and I just thought I have to enjoy the twists and turns and not let the creepiness overpower the clues of what's to come. I have so much hope for this show, nurturing and respecting the original story while giving us that inner cheering for rebellion and freedom for those who want it.

Speaker 6:
[81:16] Me too, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[81:18] It's just beautiful and perfectly cast with such talent. All wrapped up perfectly giving us the greatest gift of June. I can't wait to listen to the rest of the podcast while driving down for a little holiday with my family and have to deal with all my three girls under the same roof again. If need be, I'll be throwing around some plum-ups and seeing how well that goes down. In piece I go, Tam from Perth, PS. I messaged Wendy that Paula was also Aunt Becky in Stranger Things if you guys were trying to remember where she was from.

Speaker 2:
[81:55] I knew I had seen her before. As soon as she said that, I was like, that's it. That's where I've seen her before. Thank you for that, Tam.

Speaker 6:
[82:05] Rosemary Cundiff-Brown says, Just listen to the podcast for this episode. Oh, Deborah B. Bless Your Heart.

Speaker 2:
[82:15] That was the person that had said we have trumped the arrangements.

Speaker 6:
[82:20] Oh, got it.

Speaker 2:
[82:22] We all know what bless your heart means.

Speaker 6:
[82:23] Bless your heart. Yep.

Speaker 2:
[82:26] Cheryl Richardson says, Question, are there no handmaids anymore? I believe they are. We just haven't seen that. I think they're just focused on the girls. And we've really only seen inside Penny and Agnes' homes. And neither of them have handmaids at this time.

Speaker 6:
[82:47] It was an interesting turn of phrase for him to say, days gone by. That, yeah, I'm curious.

Speaker 2:
[82:56] I think he meant her days gone by.

Speaker 6:
[83:01] Yeah, but it also, that pairs with us haven't even seen one handmaid yet, which you can explain, but it's just got me wondering if something happened.

Speaker 2:
[83:10] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[83:10] I mean, we talked about this, I think, last week, how the handmaids, after what happened up in Massachusetts, they may have pulled handmaids from the home and they're being kept at a center, like the Red Center.

Speaker 6:
[83:23] Or, I mean, yeah, that is a huge thing in the show that they didn't get to in the book, is handmaids got together and murdered a bunch of people, and so I'm getting the sense that they did something about that, and we're going to find out what it is.

Speaker 5:
[83:38] Yeah. Yeah. So Kiva Scherer says, I watched episode four, Green Tea. Wow, that was a challenging episode to watch. I think almost all women have had experiences where a man of power that is supposed to protect you doesn't. Instead, they use the power they wield over you to inflict harm. This was so sad to watch because the actress who portrays Agnes is so brilliantly able to capture the moment at which she realizes that her newfound womanhood has opened her up to danger from everywhere. You can almost see the moment her innocent and trusting nature dies. Amazing episode, beautifully acted by Daisy and Agnes. I have to agree. I think that you get a lot of this facial acting. Like we've always said about June's face in The Handmaid's Tale. I feel like they cast actresses who can also portray that or bring that across without even words. And it's a trend that's continuing and I'm all in for it.

Speaker 6:
[84:40] Yeah, very cool. So Taryn Collins-Tabeau says, Daisy can't be from the Freedom Flight either. She would be, oh, that's the one that June, I guess when she smuggled those kids out, right? She would be younger than Nicole or Holly. Weren't there some older kids in there? I don't remember.

Speaker 5:
[85:00] There were, there were some older kids.

Speaker 2:
[85:02] There were older kids.

Speaker 6:
[85:03] Yeah, so yeah, there was older kids. Or she would have memories of Gilead. Oh, that's a good point. She had memories of Gilead.

Speaker 2:
[85:10] If she was six or eight, she probably would remember.

Speaker 6:
[85:15] All right, yeah, good point. In the first episode, she only talks about Gilead as something she learned of in school. Also, the first episode, she gives the impression that she thought those were her real parents. Okay, yeah, you're right. Plus, June says she was a baby on Formula when she was brought to Canada. Well, there's a bunch of great points. She mentioned in this episode that her birth mother is dead, which I think is information June gave her, because, again, she seemed to think those were her real parents, and was shocked slash pissed at June for telling her different. It was either information June gave her or she was lying. I think she'll be the daughter of a handmaid we've met that is now dead, thinking the one who blew up the red center or Alma or Dolores. Now that I think about it, she kind of looks like Dolores and she had a dry wit. Unfortunately, I think we'll just have to throw the book out the window and see what Bruce will do. I don't, I've forgotten who, I remember Alma, I don't remember Dolores.

Speaker 5:
[86:13] Dolores was another person in that group of handmaids that died in front of the train.

Speaker 6:
[86:18] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[86:19] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[86:23] That wasn't good.

Speaker 6:
[86:25] That was horrible. But that was a good email, though.

Speaker 2:
[86:27] Thanks, Karen.

Speaker 6:
[86:28] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[86:29] Rose Stapati says, Excellent episodes set the table for several important upcoming bits. And as a book reader, I'm fine with Daisy and Nicole being different characters. I'm also fine if it turns out Daisy's birth parents are people we've never met. The question of who are Daisy's parents isn't the most important question. I think the most important question is, how did Lydia manage to not only avoid the gallows, but rise so high? I have a guess, but it's based on book knowledge. Yeah, I want to know more about that.

Speaker 6:
[87:04] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[87:04] You haven't seen a lot about that.

Speaker 6:
[87:06] You can write in your guesses based on book knowledge and we'll read them in the book talk section.

Speaker 2:
[87:11] Yeah, I have a couple that I kept for book talk today.

Speaker 5:
[87:19] Maggie Rappucci says, Bless you. The wives wore style, much more FLDS, Fundamentalist Mormons, in this episode than I've ever seen. Paula's hair and dress really reminded me of them. The other wives' dresses somehow seemed doubtier than what Serena Joy and that group wore too. Well, it's fashion and Gilead, I guess maybe it changes over time.

Speaker 6:
[87:43] Yeah, just not as quickly as here, but there's little tiny changes.

Speaker 2:
[87:47] Somebody else responded to that comment, it was on Facebook, and said, Serena would never.

Speaker 5:
[87:53] No, she wouldn't, oh my goodness.

Speaker 6:
[87:56] That's funny.

Speaker 2:
[87:57] I'm sorry, I'm not crediting that person, but that was great.

Speaker 6:
[88:00] Truth, yeah, so funny. Lisa Marino says, hi Daphne, Wendy and Jason, another great episode. I can't imagine how jarring it must be for Daisy to be thrust into this world, and I'm very curious to know how she ended up in Gilead. Me too, I really wanna know that. I can't imagine that June would send her into this world. I can, considering how dangerous it is. You get to see in real time how desensitized these girls are while Daisy's grasping with the reality of being there, and the violence that Gilead represents. Did anyone else get the gay vibe from Agnes' friend when they were dancing? Absolutely. I have no doubt, especially after this episode. I felt like she's got a real crush on Agnes. It's been a very long time since I listened to the book, so I do not recall that being in the book, but I don't expect the show to mimic the book exactly, but I'm okay with it. No comment. There was so much that happened, and I'm trying to gather my thoughts, and I'm really bad with names, but the girl who tripped during the tea party and her reaction to it all was so sad.

Speaker 2:
[88:59] Miriam.

Speaker 6:
[89:00] Yeah, Miriam. I think this show... But she was in there dancing, right? Was she the one that was sort of competing with that other girl that she might punch?

Speaker 2:
[89:10] Jehoshua.

Speaker 6:
[89:11] They're competing over a guy. Yeah. I think this show would not be so hard to take if it wasn't rooted in so much reality right now for so many women and girls. I knew the moment Agnes had to go to the dentist that he was going to do something to her, and of course it was obvious that he had... that he had while she was unconscious. I think she's starting to see the dark side of Gilead and the world she lives in. It's sad because she cannot say anything or she'll be blamed, and that's not too far off from reality. We have a real problem in this country believing women and girls. Looking forward to the next episode and New Year guys' coverage. Blessed be the fruit. Yeah, thanks Lisa. All true, all true.

Speaker 5:
[89:52] You know, the thing is, I feel like that girls always have someone with them, like that was always the thing. And it's interesting to me that they had this appointment and no Daisy wasn't in there with her or anyone. It just, yeah, it's a question I have.

Speaker 2:
[90:12] Yeah. Therese Brees, what a wonderful name, says, as usual, Shunammite gets the best lines, breaking up scenes filled with tension and horror with, they were rebel scum. When the girls passed the three dead Mayday operatives, as they make their way to the tea party, I wonder if Star Wars exists in Gilead.

Speaker 6:
[90:35] If Jaws does, then Star Wars has to.

Speaker 5:
[90:38] I feel like it has to.

Speaker 2:
[90:40] There's got to be a black market.

Speaker 6:
[90:42] But Shunammite, I don't think she's ever heard of it. I think she came up with it all on her own.

Speaker 5:
[90:46] Of course, she did. Jess Skripalo says, did anyone else catch it's Mark Twelo's voice on Radio Free Boston? Actually, it's Stephen Colbert's voice on Radio Free Boston.

Speaker 2:
[91:00] I was going to say, I went back and listened to it, and I didn't think it was Mark Twelo.

Speaker 6:
[91:05] Wendy would have known, okay?

Speaker 2:
[91:06] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[91:08] Yeah, Stephen Colbert actually did the voiceover for Radio Free Boston.

Speaker 2:
[91:13] I did not know that. I didn't look it up, but I did go back and listen to it. Did they confirm that June's voice was the one in the first episode?

Speaker 5:
[91:24] I don't know. I didn't look into that one.

Speaker 2:
[91:27] I feel like that had to be June. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[91:30] Christine J. Huck, who I know is in the Facebook group, says, One of the things I really appreciate about how the show presents itself is that it forces the viewer to re-evaluate their beliefs. The tea ceremony slash evaluation. Someone might think, well, there's nothing wrong with knowing etiquette. There's nothing wrong with perhaps being a bit more demure. And there isn't. But then they play through the undercurrent of just how wrong forced play acting is and the damage that it inflicts. One girl's whole life is in jeopardy because of a forced trip. Insanity. Gilead's return to their, quote, traditional values is still superficial and a means of seizing and wielding power. That world is still cruel and violent. Seeing how women failed to abdicate for other women in these scenarios mirrors real life as well. Historically, women were only allowed power over the smallest things. But once they grasp that power, they wield it like a scalpel, inflicting death by a thousand cuts before other people realized it was, the other person realized it was too late. I say all this not as a put down. I'm a woman. This is human nature. And you'd see it in any repressed group. Look at how they teach the girls to relish their moments, to finger point or stone offenders. Look at Shunamite. Look at the ants receiving the gifts for good husbands. I mean, even Agnes was screaming when the guy got his hand chopped off. They've been taught the pie is finite, and to grasp what little they can. The system has figured out how best to weaponize the action they know people will take. If it wasn't so terrifying, I'd almost be impressed. Also I'm now super curious about what Commander McKenzie is up to. Me too. Well said.

Speaker 2:
[93:19] Renee Gudemann Bates says, I wonder if they're not going to introduce Lydia's involvement until the end of the season. They're moving at a much slower pace than I thought they would, which is fine. I thought maybe they would do like Handmaids and have the first season basically be the book, and then take the story from there. But obviously being four episodes in, that ain't it. I think they're setting Becca up to have feelings for Agnes, which makes me very afraid for her. I'm enjoying the show so far, and I know they've made huge changes, but they're following the structure of the story. I agree.

Speaker 6:
[93:56] Yeah, The Handmaid's Tale book is so much more of a story. Would you say smaller? It feels smaller because it's just one person's perspective through a fairly short amount of time, whereas The Testaments is kind of a bigger story with more people. So I'm not surprised that they didn't do that, have the book just be one season. I figured they would stretch the story of the book out to several seasons.

Speaker 2:
[94:25] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[94:28] Virginia Isabel says, I'm having a difficult time with this episode because it is now obvious, based on statements by Bruce Miller, that this show is taking a huge swing away from what is the core plot line of the book. I was so excited about the conclusion in the book, and now it's obvious that it won't happen on the show. I just have to make my mind pivot and forget Margaret Atwood's plot, so that I can enjoy this version. I love your thought on the podcast, Wendy, that in fact, Margaret Atwood wrote a sequel to her book, not a sequel to the series. I think that's true. Really. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[95:04] Yeah. Even though she, like I said, she brought some things in from the show, but it was book versions of those things.

Speaker 5:
[95:11] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[95:13] All right. We have a couple of reviews that we thought had some nice things to say. And so I'll read the first one. It's from RN Independent. Great pod from Compassionate People. This is Apple Podcast, by the way. As I discovered Jason, Wendy and Daphne from their Handmaid's Tale Podcast, I'm loving their thoughtful and deep analysis on Testaments. I love hearing all the things they noticed that I didn't. You can tell they're people with empathy and concern, not just for these characters, but how concept like these affect the real world today. I've seen some get upset that they've discussed the shows in relation to politics. And if you don't like that, fine. But what I appreciate is that if they were just in it for the attention and financial gain, they would have quietly stopped like so many others have. I actually didn't realize so many other people had guys we should stop to. No, I'm just kidding. I appreciate them standing on their principles. Additionally, if you fail to see the parallels between these shows and what's happening now, loss of women's rights and a paramilitary force rounding up people and killing them in some instances, I'm not sure you're getting the point of these shows and what Margaret Atwood was trying to convey. I could not agree with that more. But everyone's entitled to their opinion. Praise be.

Speaker 2:
[96:27] New Jersey Mom 29 says, Great recaps. Nice conversational podcast. I enjoy listening to After My Weekly Watch. I love that they have book talk at the end for people interested in how the show is related to the book. Having it there prevents non-book readers from getting spoilers. Personally, I think it would be almost impossible for them to avoid political commentary in a podcast about this show, and I like the real-world tie-in discussions. I agree.

Speaker 6:
[96:57] I'm glad. We could avoid it, but what the other person said about how that's kind of the point of why Margaret Atwood created all this, it is key, in my opinion.

Speaker 5:
[97:11] It is.

Speaker 2:
[97:12] Yeah, and if you think that's not right, just go look at any Margaret Atwood interview.

Speaker 5:
[97:19] She's done.

Speaker 6:
[97:20] She's very clear.

Speaker 2:
[97:20] She makes it clear.

Speaker 5:
[97:22] Yeah. So we have a call from Renee.

Speaker 7:
[97:29] Hi, Daphne, Wendy, and Jason. I want to start by saying I'm so grateful that you all are covering The Testament, because this is not an easy show to sit with. It's heavy, it's bleak, and honestly, it's just heartbreaking. But the way you all approach it with care, honesty, and perspective, I truly appreciate that. Wendy, I have been praying for you, and I know God is going to answer your prayers. Daphne, I miss that Boston accent so much. I try to do it, but listen, it's not giving what it needs to give. And Jason, I just have to say, the way you handle this as a man, it really stands out. You know what you can't fully understand, but you approach it with empathy, and you ask questions in such a respectful way. That matters. That's why you're such a great proud father. Like I have told you before, you lead by example, because you're just so respectful about it. And I love that about you. And I agree, a lot of men do need to watch this show. Also, Jason, you asked about longer worst mills on The Walking Dead Podcast, and you already know my answer is yes. Mine are always long anyway, so I fully support it. I love hearing different people's perspectives, especially on shows where it's fictional but not. You know what I'm saying? I'm just going to leave that alone. Now getting into the show, did anyone else notice that none of the commanders were black, not one? For there were so many little black girls, and I don't always want to make things about race because we know it's plenty of black pedophiles, but it stood out to me. It just added another layer of discomfort to an already disturbing situation. And let's be real, again, all these men are pedophiles, including the black ones, whomever is messing with little children are pedophiles. Because at the end of the day, these are babies. That's what makes this show harder to watch for me than The Handmaid's Tale. You know, these are little girls, little babies, and it's sick. And it really hit home for me because my niece recently shared with me that she was molesting when she was younger, and she and I are so close. And, you know, her just telling me, it just really shook me. And I asked her if she wanted to come on and maybe talk about it with me because I thought it could be healing, but she told me no. She said there's nothing cathartic about it, you know, this for her. And this is something that she has to live with for the rest of her life. And I had to respect that. So watching this show now, you know, it's just, it's disturbing. And it's personal because it's not fiction. It's a fictional show, but it's based on reality. This is something real, that people have to carry with them every day. They have to heal, they have to process it. Because this happened to her when she was a little girl, and she's just telling me now. And she's grown, she's in her 30s. And like I explained to her, I'm glad that you felt comfortable enough to finally open up and talk to me about it. And this is gonna begin your healing process. But like I said, it was something that they're gonna have to carry forever. And, oh, I want to mention Lydia. Ah, mm, mm, you know, I'm giving her the side eye. I'm looking at her like, mm, mm. And the other auntie, I'm definitely side eyeing her, Ed V. But June, that's my girl. June said, told Daisy, don't let the bastards grind you down. That moment hit. I'm so glad to see June Osborne back on the screen. She's a great gangsta. Alrighty, peace and love.

Speaker 5:
[101:10] Thank you, Renee. It's so good to hear you, boy.

Speaker 2:
[101:13] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[101:14] And was it her niece, she said?

Speaker 2:
[101:17] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[101:17] She was so lucky to have someone like you to talk to about something like that. And I know you approached it with care and love. And so I just-

Speaker 2:
[101:26] And fierceness, like protectiveness. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[101:29] She couldn't have a better person to have.

Speaker 2:
[101:32] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[101:33] She left this open door of communication, too. I'm sure, or I hope her niece feels like if she does feel comfortable at some point wanting to talk about it, that Renee will be there for her to listen.

Speaker 6:
[101:47] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[101:48] And that's really important.

Speaker 2:
[101:53] I do think it's a little unrealistic to think that people in a mostly all-white society that are doing what the leaders of Gilead are doing would also not be racists. So I get what some people are thinking about that. And I think we talked about it last week, right? We think maybe they made the reason, the decision so that African American and people of color, actors and actresses could have an equal footing on the show. I'm not sure.

Speaker 6:
[102:28] Now I'm starting to see some evidence of racism on the show because like this girl, what was her name? The one that got hit? It's a biblical name.

Speaker 5:
[102:40] Jehoseph.

Speaker 6:
[102:43] It's interesting to me that she's competing with Miriam for a commander, right? And I think it's probably the lowest guy on the totem pole because Miriam tripped and spilled her tea and so her choice, her pool of choices went way down. So maybe that's a subtle commentary that because Jehoseph was black that she's, that's the only option available to her too. I don't know. I could be reading into that, but maybe. And then the fact that Paula keeps telling Agnes her hair is too frizzy. So I think maybe they are incorporating some racism into this. It's not like what people were saying before that were complaining about it or whatever.

Speaker 5:
[103:29] Well, Jehoseph had several moments in these last couple of episodes where she's almost bullying people. She's bullying her aunt, not aunt. She's bullying her Martha about the tea not being right. She's bullying Miriam. Well, he's going to pick me. He said I was his first choice. She's being really, you don't see in her what you see in some of the other girls with their relationships with each other. She seems a bit full of herself, I think, like cocky.

Speaker 6:
[104:10] Yeah. But there could be a response to not being treated well. It could.

Speaker 5:
[104:14] It could.

Speaker 6:
[104:14] We don't know yet.

Speaker 5:
[104:15] Yeah, we don't know. We haven't seen her home life, so we don't know, but.

Speaker 6:
[104:22] Anyway.

Speaker 2:
[104:23] Or she could just be doing everything she's been taught to do, you know?

Speaker 5:
[104:26] Yep, exactly.

Speaker 6:
[104:28] Like you were saying that when she was yelling at Martha, the ants might have thought that was great.

Speaker 2:
[104:36] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[104:53] All right, that's our show. Thanks for listening, everyone. Next time on the podcast, The Testaments S1E6 Stadium. I have to tell you that the word stadium, he made me go back to Handmaid's Tale, Fenway Park.

Speaker 6:
[105:13] Nothing great happens at stadiums, but I think I know what this is gonna be.

Speaker 5:
[105:17] Me too. Yeah, I think we're gonna get something we want.

Speaker 2:
[105:21] Buckle up.

Speaker 6:
[105:22] Buckle up, everybody.

Speaker 5:
[105:25] I think we might get something we've been hoping we would get too, maybe this season.

Speaker 6:
[105:31] Can't wait to see how they're gonna do it, and I know after it, they'll be like, why did I want to see that? I know.

Speaker 2:
[105:37] It's like anticipation, but also dread.

Speaker 6:
[105:39] Dread, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[105:40] At the same time.

Speaker 6:
[105:41] That's what this show does.

Speaker 5:
[105:43] Wendy, anticipation, like, anticipation.

Speaker 1:
[105:47] Anticipation, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[105:48] Just a little hint.

Speaker 2:
[105:52] If you want to write in or leave us a voice message about it, you can find all our contact information at podcastica.com. And don't forget about our Handmaid's Tale Facebook group that we have called Mayday. We've gotten a lot of feedback on there. Most of our feedback is coming from that group. So if you are interested in joining that, of course we do talk about real time concerns over the politics of the United States right now. And also in other countries too.

Speaker 6:
[106:29] Yeah. It's like-minded people and can be kind of a support group, but it's about the show and the real world. And if you just want to talk about the show, you could also join our Podcastica Facebook group where we also put up comment posts each week where people comment about the show and other shows that Podcastica covers. We also have a Discord server with all of that stuff in there too. And links for all three of those are in the show notes.

Speaker 2:
[106:57] Yep.

Speaker 5:
[106:59] All right. That's our show.

Speaker 2:
[107:01] Thanks for listening.

Speaker 5:
[107:17] Okay, now we're transitioning to book talk. So if you don't want to know the connections between the book and the show, now is a great time to exit, because we're going to talk about it.

Speaker 6:
[107:30] Yeah, spoiler time.

Speaker 5:
[107:32] We did get a little bit of feedback based on book versus show. And so the first one is from Susan Frower Joe. Says, listen to the most recent book talk on the pod and wanted to say that Daisy was totally trained in the book as well because she had to lean to defend herself, one inch punch, etc. She agreed to go into Gilead but was still shocked by the reality even though she had heard about it. I think seeing and hearing are so different in light as in fiction. Also, my favorite comment on the show was, I see Paula is still a gift.

Speaker 2:
[108:10] Holly Wonderlin says, So Bruce Miller came out and said that Daisy is not Nicole. This is due to the show taking place four years after Handmaid's Tale, unlike the books, which was a 15-year difference. So what if she is actually Janine's daughter, Charlotte, aka Angela? She has the curly red hair and round face just like Janine. Also, if she was born in season one of Handmaid's Tale, she would have been eight when Mayday took Boston. This would make her 12 in The Testaments, which is more believable time-wise. Then June says that Melanie sung her to sleep when she first came to them. Janine sung to her when she was sick in the hospital. Coincidence? I have heard that from several people that maybe Charlotte.

Speaker 6:
[108:58] She says he doesn't want to bend time and pretend that the space-time continue and doesn't exist. So I think that means that he would not want to say that a 12-year-old is sexually active. That's my opinion. I don't think it lines up. It is closer, but it's still no cigar.

Speaker 2:
[109:16] I think Daisy is probably just somebody that was involved with, you know, her parents were involved with Mayday and this happened to her. And then June got involved in her life and, you know, I don't think she's anybody we know from Handmaid's Tale, but I could be wrong. Cassie definitely thinks she's Charlotte.

Speaker 5:
[109:44] I don't think she's Charlotte, but I also think she may be someone whose parents from Gilead were disillusioned after they realized what was really happening and decided to get her out, like from before June was there.

Speaker 6:
[110:07] I think there's going to be a story there that is...

Speaker 5:
[110:09] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[110:11] I'm sure it'll be great.

Speaker 2:
[110:12] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[110:12] It's all good. Yeah, I'm looking forward to what Bruce will put together.

Speaker 2:
[110:15] Somehow she knows her birth mother is dead. So that's a story we don't know.

Speaker 5:
[110:20] Right.

Speaker 6:
[110:21] So let's talk about other things that, um, Becca, I mean, she's thinking about running away, but if it's like the book, she's going to try to kill herself, right?

Speaker 5:
[110:32] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[110:33] It feels like that's where she's not in her full team.

Speaker 2:
[110:36] I'm worried about Becca because they are changing so many things up that I'm really worried about Becca.

Speaker 6:
[110:43] You think she's going to succeed?

Speaker 2:
[110:45] I don't know.

Speaker 6:
[110:45] Is she killing herself or what are you worried about?

Speaker 2:
[110:48] I think she might run away and that might have dire consequences. But I'm just worried about her because I feel like she's the character that I've most connected with and thinking about. And I'm just really worried. I think she has been spiraling out and she keeps like, she doesn't know that Daisy can be trusted, you know? She keeps kind of each time telling more and doing more and...

Speaker 6:
[111:19] She's drunk, but yeah.

Speaker 2:
[111:20] Yes, true.

Speaker 6:
[111:21] She's reckless. Yeah, she's just in a place where her life seems so messed up that she kind of doesn't care anymore.

Speaker 5:
[111:29] Like she wants it to be over. Like what she's feeling is just so painful that she, you know, she may not feel like she has any other options, but to do that, she didn't say, I want to kill myself.

Speaker 2:
[111:44] She just kind of said, like, I wish the world would explode basically.

Speaker 5:
[111:49] Yeah. She said she wished the world would burn and the stars would disappear basically, is the gist of what she said. And you know, there are different ways of running away.

Speaker 2:
[112:04] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[112:05] But she might run away and then we'll see a story about that, which could be really good, you know, good story anyway.

Speaker 5:
[112:11] I'm concerned for her because of the repercussions that either attempting to take her own life or running away, what that would mean for her in this Gilead world that we have on the show. Like what her father is not a commander. So she's not going to have that protection. So I'm really concerned about that.

Speaker 6:
[112:37] About how come the older commanders don't already have wives. And I wonder if they're doing the whole Judd thing, right? Judd kills his wives, get younger ones, right? And maybe that's not as suspicious in Gilead because they present women as being frail. And so, oh, another one died or something like that. I wonder if it's just a common practice.

Speaker 2:
[112:58] It's a thing, right? Yeah, I thought about that too when they all came out.

Speaker 6:
[113:05] And then it was interesting when Judd scolded one of the other commanders for speaking crudely about the women when we know damn well that at least in the book, he kills his wives to get younger ones. And that's what they were saying, like another new batch. So is it just him trying to cover for himself or maybe he actually has some kind of a twistedly righteous rationale about what he's doing or something like that, you know, or he's just a psychopath?

Speaker 5:
[113:33] He definitely has a, yeah, he definitely has a vision. Like we know he has a vision because he mentioned it to Vidala. And I'm just wondering how different his vision is versus what the actual Gilead version is because again, someone brought up about the fundamentalist dressing. I'm starting. I mean, how far off would it be for them to start thinking they needed to have multiple lives?

Speaker 6:
[114:00] Right. I mean, That is a good point.

Speaker 5:
[114:04] This is Gilead we're talking about.

Speaker 6:
[114:06] I mean, if they're going to do everything they have done, then there's, why not just do that too?

Speaker 2:
[114:12] The only thing that I think would stop them is it's like, there seems to be not as many available women because so many, think about, there's Martha's, none of them are married, none of them are available. There's Handmaids, none of them are available. So I feel like there's too many men and not enough available women.

Speaker 6:
[114:39] I could still see the more powerful commanders doing it.

Speaker 2:
[114:42] Yeah, that's true, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[114:46] There was one post, Wendy, that you shared, one little comment. Christina Gonzales said, I'm with our host, the writers won't be happy to make the readers happy. We have to suspend this. We have to suspend belief, homies.

Speaker 2:
[115:02] Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah, there's parts of it you got to put aside. I think it's going to be harder and harder to have significant book talk because it's pretty different. You know, it is.

Speaker 6:
[115:15] We'll see, but yeah.

Speaker 2:
[115:17] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[115:17] I mean, next week, if it's about how the ants, yeah. And I'm particularly interested in that because I feel that, as I've said many times, Aunt Lydia in the book is different from the show because she was pious the whole time in the show, but in the book she wasn't and she had to pretend. So I wonder if for a pious woman like Aunt Lydia in the show, it will play out any differently, you know?

Speaker 2:
[115:44] I mean, they may be showing us a different Aunt Lydia, you know?

Speaker 6:
[115:48] No, it's insane.

Speaker 2:
[115:50] Then what we got in the book.

Speaker 6:
[115:54] Yeah, I know. We had a flashback of Lydia already in the show and she was Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[116:00] different than in the book. This is our Margaret Atwood multiverse, okay? It's like Marvel.

Speaker 6:
[116:10] We're getting like a different timeline and a different version and But I think, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think the shows are in the same universe.

Speaker 2:
[116:22] I think the shows are in the same universe.

Speaker 6:
[116:24] The Lydia from the show is different in my view from the Lydia in the book.

Speaker 2:
[116:28] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[116:29] Now we're going to get to see show Lydia's backstory and I want to see if it goes up.

Speaker 2:
[116:33] And Nick's not coming back to life.

Speaker 5:
[116:36] No. No. That all happened.

Speaker 2:
[116:41] Right.

Speaker 5:
[116:43] Right.

Speaker 6:
[116:44] We might get like 10 versions of Nick. No.

Speaker 2:
[116:47] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[116:47] No. Same expression, Jason.

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