transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] What's up, everybody? Welcome back. It is another episode of Firing Order, brought to you by Vyper Industrial. This is the show where we get into extremely nuanced arguments about random rankings of things in the car world, and we try to stay friends through the end. Today, we've got my co-conspirator, Ron Zaras, as well as Gridlife co-founder, Chris Stewart, to rank the top five budget track day cars. Let's get into it. If you grew up reading Hot Rod and not GQ, you're probably more of a hat and hoodie person, which means your sunglasses likely match that look. But this past weekend, my wife said we had somewhere fancy to go. So I dusted off the button down she got me for Christmas. But when I went to go grab my laser faces, I got that look. Thankfully, Heat Wave saved my ass with their new Nimitz. It's an elevated take on the classic aviator, stylish and functional. So if you need to class it up a little, my friends at Heat Wave got you covered from track day to date night. heatwavevisual.com. Some people are extremely organized, super sorted workbenches, garages and lives. I am not that person. I'm a mess. Luckily, Wera can help. When you buy their toolkits, they offer matching foam inserts. Maybe it's a mental condition of mine, but there's something about an empty slot that just screams at me to go find that missing 10mm before it vanishes forever. Plus, the inserts fit perfectly into Wera's stainless steel rolling cabinets, which come both in regular and double XL. For those of you, like myself, who hoard, I'm sorry, I mean collect tools. Go check them out at weratools.com. You boys ready for this?

Speaker 2:
[02:03] I'm ready.

Speaker 1:
[02:04] Yeah, you ready?

Speaker 3:
[02:05] I'm ready.

Speaker 2:
[02:05] Let's do it.

Speaker 1:
[02:06] You don't look as ready as the two of us.

Speaker 2:
[02:08] Yeah, cause y'all got notebooks. Like every time, like, and they're not just notebooks, they're gridded notebooks. And I'm not gonna make the same joke. Chris is about the grid life.

Speaker 3:
[02:21] Yeah, you made it anyway.

Speaker 1:
[02:23] The one dude at the table who's not a dad, just ripping dad jokes, you think he's trying to fit in?

Speaker 2:
[02:28] That I know of.

Speaker 3:
[02:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:30] Look, before we get into this, Ron and I just enjoy the artistry of debate and just argument. So we're here for that purpose alone. But you actually run a series. This is your profession. We're maybe spectators on it.

Speaker 3:
[02:50] Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely deep in the weeds.

Speaker 1:
[02:53] Yeah. I mean, I said it in the intro, but for those who don't know, what have you been doing for the past decade of your life?

Speaker 3:
[02:58] I am Chris Stewart and I am the founder of Gridlife. So I've been facilitating track time in competition and other forms in a variety of places all over the country for the last 10 years.

Speaker 1:
[03:11] I like that you use the word facilitating. I think when you use it, you have to follow it with like, I've been facilitating bad decisions.

Speaker 3:
[03:16] Yeah. I mean, I'm a behind the curtain kind of guy. So I've been puppeteering, you know, like kind of puppeteering the environment for competition and track day culture to happen.

Speaker 2:
[03:28] Yeah. And I think that's a super interesting thing too, because your passion is in racing and track cars and all that. And you could see that because Gridlife didn't really have to be that, right? Like the combo of a music festival and like a drift event and just time attack is cool. But you guys have much more than just time attack.

Speaker 1:
[03:45] I have told him so many times that he would be so much more successful if he cared less about racing.

Speaker 3:
[03:49] Well, sure.

Speaker 2:
[03:51] But I love the fact that you make that happen and the people that are there are like lifelong fans because of that.

Speaker 3:
[03:57] Yeah, I mean, it follows my own journey, right? So like I had a CRX. I like got started to get into like kind of the track inspired builds and then turned it into like actually a track car. And that was my journey. So like Gridlife's like built around my automotive story for the most part.

Speaker 2:
[04:15] That's really cool.

Speaker 1:
[04:16] One of the cool things I think now is like you've actually offered a lot of other series for people to build cars for and come compete, right? You guys started with Time Attack, but then you've expanded and like talk about what are some of the series you've got going on.

Speaker 3:
[04:29] Yeah. So we've got a ton now. So like Time Attack is the bread and butter. That's the core, right? So that's seven classes, you know, so Club SC, Club TR, all that kind of moving up. So you can build like kind of any car that you like, any car that you love and find like a place for it.

Speaker 1:
[04:47] There's an issue brung and there's a category for it.

Speaker 3:
[04:49] And there's a category for it. It's become like wildly competitive. So people have like figured out like they're, they're math in the rule book and like it's, it's real. Right. So it's, it's, it's a pretty professional grassroots series at this point, you know, but outside of that, so we've got a GLTC. So that's a Gridlife Touring Car. So that's a 12 and a half to one power to weight ratio, kind of math rule book. And that's wheel to wheel racing. So first to the finish line.

Speaker 2:
[05:13] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[05:13] You know, so where Time Attack is like, you're kind of, you're competing for the fastest lap, right?

Speaker 2:
[05:19] Yep.

Speaker 3:
[05:20] And then newest series, like kind of in that, you know, portfolio of things from us is GLGT. So GLGT is eight and a half to one. So faster, same structure, same run, you know, same build the car you love, but faster, right? So, and that runs in the same format as GLTC, you know, and then we have the Rush series. The Rush is a really cool kind of spec racer, and that runs similar too, right? So like that's in the series as well.

Speaker 2:
[05:51] What's the spec?

Speaker 3:
[05:52] So they're factory-built cars, right?

Speaker 1:
[05:54] Have you seen the Rush cars?

Speaker 2:
[05:55] Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[05:57] Yeah, so they're-

Speaker 2:
[05:58] Like Nate Hamilton, Grant, like all those guys that have been racing those things, that's cool.

Speaker 3:
[06:01] Yeah, so that's our only spec series, right? That's cool. Yeah, so-

Speaker 1:
[06:05] The Fit thing wasn't really a spec series. It was just that Fit was the most for that class or whatever that was.

Speaker 3:
[06:12] Club SC?

Speaker 1:
[06:13] Yeah, right. Fit was just the best car in that. So it made it look like it was a Fit spec series.

Speaker 3:
[06:20] Right. So it started as spec Fit, right? That was kind of a joke.

Speaker 1:
[06:23] So it did start as spec Fit.

Speaker 3:
[06:25] But not really. It was a joke title, right? So the reason that that even became a part of Gridlife, right? So I always make the comment, what does Gridlife do? It does what the community wants, right? So we build things, we built it together with the drivers and with the community, right? So like a lot of the classes and a lot of the things are crafted with the thinking of like what the community wants, what they're doing already, right? So the behavior that spawned what was spec fit, which then became Sunday Cup, is now Club SC, which stands for Club Sunday Cup or Club Slow Car.

Speaker 2:
[06:59] Yeah, which is like the Gran Turismo classic entry level race.

Speaker 3:
[07:01] Yeah, however you want to digest it, it's because a lot of our instructors, when we were doing more, when we had more track day type stuff in Gridlife, when their race cars broke, they brought their dailies. Yo, I love that. And they're not going to not shred them.

Speaker 2:
[07:14] That's like the birth of the dodgy bong.

Speaker 1:
[07:16] I was just going to say that's dodgy bong.

Speaker 2:
[07:17] Yeah, same idea.

Speaker 3:
[07:18] They all happened to have Honda Fits. So then they were all just ripping their fits. And then they started going bumper to nose to bumper in the advanced session with these slow cars.

Speaker 1:
[07:29] That's how diesel truck racing started as well. It was like guys would go drag racing, they'd blow their car up, but they would be like, pull out my Cummins and run my Cummins down the hill, and I'll race my buddy who brought his Cummins. And all of a sudden, they're running like heaps.

Speaker 3:
[07:43] And there's obviously like B-Spec, and that stuff that comes from kind of the SCCA Club world and those types of things. But in our environment, fits became popular because that's what started it. It's just like, my track day car is broken. I'm just gonna rip this daily.

Speaker 2:
[07:59] And what I really like about what you guys are doing, I took a look at one of your rule books last night, just to refresh. And you have such specifics like a power band width factor that takes percentages away, but then like six lines later is like, your car has to look cool. The cooler your car looks, the more camera time you'll get. And I'm like, yo, this rule book is sick.

Speaker 1:
[08:23] So the two of us, Ron and I have had the conversation about one of the big issues that rally racing has, and I'm about to just say this in the public, is it's got an aesthetic problem.

Speaker 2:
[08:34] Track days, too.

Speaker 1:
[08:35] Very few rally cars look cool, which means that you're less likely to take a photo of them and that photo end up somewhere.

Speaker 2:
[08:42] Because you have a lot of guys that get in there and they're like, I just care about performance, and I respect that.

Speaker 3:
[08:46] Well, a lot of that stuff is like the community will, like racers gonna race.

Speaker 2:
[08:52] Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[08:52] So a lot of those rules come from like, yo, we really gotta prevent these friends from not being friends.

Speaker 1:
[08:57] Let me translate that. Racers are gonna cheat, is what he wants to say, because you will push the limit until you can't anymore.

Speaker 3:
[09:04] No, 100%, right? And they will credit card race themselves to death, and they will get in the mist, and it will ruin their soul.

Speaker 2:
[09:14] Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:
[09:15] And it'll ruin friendships, and it'll ruin the community.

Speaker 2:
[09:18] So you're preserving souls.

Speaker 3:
[09:19] Yeah, so there's some defensive behavior in that, too, right? Like, we want people to be able to be in this for a good time and a long time, and they'll burn themselves out if you allow them to. And it's really hard. I mean, Adam can talk about this. I don't sit in that side of the house as much. I mean, I contribute to it, but I don't write the rules, right? I write the culture of what it's supposed to do.

Speaker 1:
[09:44] It is a thankless position.

Speaker 2:
[09:46] Very much so.

Speaker 1:
[09:47] When we did Gymkhana Grid, we dealt with a lot of that, because people just want to be competitive, and they want to find loopholes. And for some people in the sport, finding the loophole is the fun part. For the person who's helping build a car or whatever, that's the point.

Speaker 2:
[10:03] So how many years have you been doing Gridlife?

Speaker 3:
[10:07] Gridlife started in 2014, officially. So a long time, decade plus.

Speaker 2:
[10:14] So you have 12 years worth of info of cars on track?

Speaker 3:
[10:18] Yes, I do. I have that data. I looked at it. I got bar graphs, I got circle charts, I got those things. I know what people are doing.

Speaker 2:
[10:28] You're more qualified than we are.

Speaker 1:
[10:30] So he's bringing data, metrics. He probably has a spreadsheet.

Speaker 2:
[10:34] Real numbers.

Speaker 1:
[10:34] I'm going to tell you what you're up against. You're up against two guys who have spent the past 20 some odd years working in and around motorsports with no time to really do their own being in motorsports, but bench racing the shit out of a potential marketplace by as to how we're going to... Next year is the year we're going to build that car and we're going to go compete, probably in Gridlife. I have a lot of research done at 1 o'clock in the morning of what would be the perfect race car.

Speaker 2:
[11:03] We have many dreams. We have many dreams.

Speaker 1:
[11:06] We're fueled on dreams. You're fueled on math or something.

Speaker 3:
[11:11] I call it practicality.

Speaker 1:
[11:12] If you've already forgotten why we're here, we are here to debate the top five budget track day cars. I think what we need to do right now is set up the rules and the stipulations for what this is. First up, we have is the price. The base car has to be bought for $15,000. When I say base car, that means that the vehicle runs, drives. You can go purchase it and you can drive it home, and it also has to be readily available in the United States. Meaning, it could be a car that's import, but you have to be able to easily find it. It can't be like there's only been 15 of them imported into the US. That doesn't work. What were some of the other things we talked about? Do you remember?

Speaker 2:
[11:54] Ice cream tests.

Speaker 1:
[11:55] This one's really important. So explain the ice cream test.

Speaker 3:
[11:57] The ice cream test is you have to be able to take a friend, a significant other, your spouse, to get ice cream in it.

Speaker 2:
[12:04] After the track day.

Speaker 3:
[12:05] So it was one of the rules, where I talk about rules for the community that end up in our rule set. It's called the ice cream test. So in the Sunday Cup Club SC class, if you win that class, you actually have to go get ice cream. You have to go get ice cream and you have to bring someone with you. If you can't do that in your car, then that car can't win. It means you stripped it out too much, it means it doesn't have a seat, whatever.

Speaker 1:
[12:30] Because we also discussed, in order for this to be a proper budget car, you have to drive it to the track.

Speaker 3:
[12:35] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[12:35] Because one, owning a truck, also owning a trailer and having a parking for that, there's no budget at all. Even if you have the cheapest truck and cheapest trailer, it's not easy to have that.

Speaker 2:
[12:44] I think it's a very common situation where you're just starting out, you're super into cars, but your daily driver is your only car.

Speaker 3:
[12:50] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[12:51] Your daily driver is going to be whatever you also have fun in. So that's kind of the idea.

Speaker 3:
[12:55] So it needs to be able to serve that purpose, right? You know, it's your daily, and you take it to the track, and it has to take the stuff that you need for the track.

Speaker 1:
[13:06] The 15K does not include mods, but as we discussed, like mods have to be within reason. It can't be a car that requires a turbocharger, or is like, I need to back half the whole car and to redo all the suspension or to frame it. Like none of that works. It has to be the basic car in silhouette.

Speaker 3:
[13:23] Wheels, tires, suspension, brakes, those are the only mods you need for a track day.

Speaker 2:
[13:27] That's right.

Speaker 3:
[13:27] Period.

Speaker 2:
[13:28] But they are required on mostly any street car ever made.

Speaker 1:
[13:32] Maybe transmission. There are some cars.

Speaker 2:
[13:34] You don't think so? No, that's way too far.

Speaker 3:
[13:36] Yes, beneficial, right? But in order to get on the track.

Speaker 1:
[13:40] Actually more from a reliability part.

Speaker 3:
[13:41] And actually in order to get on the track, you just need to make sure like you don't even need good tires. I don't think you just need tires that don't.

Speaker 2:
[13:47] D-Lam.

Speaker 3:
[13:48] Yeah, that aren't going to be laminated.

Speaker 2:
[13:49] But brakes.

Speaker 3:
[13:50] Brakes you need.

Speaker 2:
[13:50] Brakes and fluid.

Speaker 3:
[13:51] Brakes and fluid. Yeah. Brakes and fluid, you know, like.

Speaker 1:
[13:53] So arguably you should be able to go onto Marketplace right now.

Speaker 3:
[13:58] Right now.

Speaker 1:
[13:58] Buy the car.

Speaker 3:
[13:59] Yeah, this moment.

Speaker 1:
[14:00] Go pick it up and within one week, as long as you had the money set aside, go to a track day.

Speaker 2:
[14:06] That's right. That's fair.

Speaker 1:
[14:07] I like that, right?

Speaker 2:
[14:08] I like it.

Speaker 1:
[14:08] That works. By the way, if you're interested in how we came up with all of this, we did like another half hour pre-show to the show to discuss this on Patreon, because I think we realized in the last Firing Order that I did with Mickey and Nads on the top JDM tuners, that we probably should have had a conversation first.

Speaker 2:
[14:25] Well, you did, but it's Nads, so you guys talked about everything on the planet.

Speaker 1:
[14:30] We need to put in some more limitations and things like that. Then I think one of the other ones, I think is the most important, is that this is not about being competitive, it's about like bang for the buck.

Speaker 2:
[14:41] Dude, for sure, miles per mile.

Speaker 1:
[14:43] Like it doesn't matter if you go to the track day and you get lapped on everyone, as long as like you're having a really good time and you get to keep driving and you get a lot of seat time.

Speaker 2:
[14:52] I've seen it with a couple of friends of ours, like on a track day alone, just chasing the fastest time forever, faster than anybody else, that's a race to the bottom. Like you're just gonna make a time attack car on accident. Whereas if you build something that just brings you joy and then you could develop yourself as a driver, the Track Day World Championship, there's no prizes.

Speaker 1:
[15:13] There's no prizes. Actually it's the opposite because you're more likely to blow your car up, absolutely. Destroy your kid's college savings.

Speaker 2:
[15:21] Where you focus on the driving, focus on getting better with you and with the car.

Speaker 1:
[15:25] Something else too on a regular track day, no one's watching you drive. Nobody's paying attention to the heater lap you just had.

Speaker 2:
[15:34] Maybe your girlfriend that you dragged out there.

Speaker 1:
[15:36] Maybe. Maybe one old dude who's up there smoking a cigarette, who used to race 20 years ago, who would smoke the shit out of you in a Fox body. He does, but he doesn't think any of you are good. He hates all of you.

Speaker 3:
[15:47] Yeah, he hates all of you. He's pissed that you're here.

Speaker 1:
[15:52] He misses when this was a circle track.

Speaker 3:
[15:54] Yeah, he doesn't care.

Speaker 1:
[15:56] He doesn't care. So that being said, the point of having a good day on track is to go there, have fun, and be able to drive the car home.

Speaker 2:
[16:04] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[16:05] Which is a good day.

Speaker 2:
[16:06] Yes, that's a really good day.

Speaker 1:
[16:07] All right, so without further ado, you're going to start. So for a reminder of everyone how we do this, everybody has brought their list of five in no particular order. We will battle to take two of their cars, move them to the next level. We then move all the way through. At the end, that leaves us with six cars. Obviously, we're trying to get five. One will have to die, but we also realize that there are probably a lot of blind spots. So the group of all of you who are on Patreon have given us a whole list of cars that we will then review before we make our final decisions to see if there's any swap outs, and then we will argue to the death for the final five. And he wants them to all be Hondas. Anyway, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not. Maybe some surprises. So in no particular order, you may start as the guest. Bring us your list.

Speaker 3:
[16:55] So I brought a real practical approach to this. I've seen a lot of cars on track. I've seen a lot of fun hat. I've seen a lot of heartbreak. And also, I'm from the Midwest. So thinking about a car that fits the like, this has got to be my car.

Speaker 1:
[17:13] So regional is really good and important. Because if you live in a track that's really fast, a slow car that's really technical may not be as much fun.

Speaker 2:
[17:21] That's not going to be good at all.

Speaker 3:
[17:22] Even outside of, we're blessed where we have, we do have a lot of tracks.

Speaker 2:
[17:26] You got some variety.

Speaker 3:
[17:27] In a five-hour rip. So starting off the list, Civic Si.

Speaker 2:
[17:33] OK.

Speaker 3:
[17:34] That's 2006 to 2011.

Speaker 1:
[17:36] Right.

Speaker 3:
[17:37] So next, the Scion Twins.

Speaker 1:
[17:42] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[17:42] So, you know, classic. You know, and you can...

Speaker 1:
[17:46] And this would be Gen 1, because you really can't...

Speaker 3:
[17:48] You can get a Scion for that price point.

Speaker 2:
[17:50] Yeah. And you can still get a BRZ Gen 1.

Speaker 1:
[17:53] But Gen 2 is outside.

Speaker 2:
[17:55] It's like salvaged.

Speaker 3:
[17:56] When I say Scion Twins, it's like the Scion era of either of those.

Speaker 2:
[17:59] OK.

Speaker 1:
[18:00] That makes sense.

Speaker 2:
[18:01] Before Toyota got in the game.

Speaker 3:
[18:02] Which is effectively like 13 to 16.

Speaker 1:
[18:05] Right.

Speaker 3:
[18:05] Right.

Speaker 2:
[18:06] 16 to get cut off for that.

Speaker 3:
[18:08] 350Z.

Speaker 2:
[18:09] OK.

Speaker 3:
[18:10] So talk about reliability. Talk about availability. Not a car that I gravitate towards.

Speaker 1:
[18:17] Yeah. It's also got a pretty heavy drift and takeover tax on it right now.

Speaker 3:
[18:22] But we'll get to that. We'll get to that. I guess I'm unaware. Fiesta ST Unconsidered.

Speaker 1:
[18:31] It's not unconsidered. It was probably on both of our lists.

Speaker 3:
[18:34] Well, in the data, small sliver in the pie chart. And the second gen Honda Fit, which is probably my expected choice.

Speaker 1:
[18:48] That was your expected choice.

Speaker 3:
[18:49] I figured you'd comment on that. I mean, that's way under budget, right? So like with that car, you could get the car, you could get all the parts and you can run track days for four years for that budget.

Speaker 2:
[18:58] So there's something to be said about the longevity.

Speaker 1:
[19:00] So I'm going to go ahead and say right off the bat, like we could probably just stop the show and a lot of people would say this is a good list.

Speaker 2:
[19:07] No way.

Speaker 1:
[19:08] No, I think like there's a lot of people. I think like this is a list that-

Speaker 2:
[19:11] Not saying your list is bad.

Speaker 3:
[19:12] I had 12 cars on my list. I had to pair it down.

Speaker 1:
[19:14] So I want to start with a car that I have zero experience in, but I know the lore of it being a very good track car, which is the SI. So why is that car on the list? Because it's something that's just like not- it's not on my radar at all. I love like 90s Civics and I understand why the new-

Speaker 2:
[19:36] Is that the turbo motor?

Speaker 1:
[19:36] The Civic Type R is cool.

Speaker 3:
[19:38] No, so that's the-

Speaker 2:
[19:39] Just okay.

Speaker 3:
[19:39] Yeah. So I mean, if you want to get into like kind of some of the nuance, right? Like so Civic was kind of the re-emergence, you know, of what the, you know, like Honda's heritage, you know, like this- so 6th Gen is the SI that you know, right?

Speaker 1:
[19:53] And then the one before that was like the EP3 or was that-

Speaker 3:
[19:56] Yes, and the EP8 was cool, but like a little bit like, yeah, that's a little oddball.

Speaker 1:
[19:59] Had the shifter on the dash.

Speaker 3:
[20:01] And then, you know, you get into, you know, kind of housing crisis era stuff, right? So not a lot of like real impactful refreshes at that particular point in time.

Speaker 1:
[20:10] By the way, I have never heard an era of cars as the housing crisis 2008. I get it, I get it, but I just-

Speaker 3:
[20:17] But like, if you remember that point in time where it's like, man, all the enthusiast cars are going away, right?

Speaker 2:
[20:22] Oh, I know.

Speaker 3:
[20:23] It's the rise of the crossover.

Speaker 1:
[20:24] Think of how boring Toyota was for like 15 years.

Speaker 2:
[20:29] They had nothing cool.

Speaker 1:
[20:30] And now they're one of the coolest brands.

Speaker 3:
[20:32] Yeah, we can call it the rise of the crossover.

Speaker 1:
[20:34] All right.

Speaker 3:
[20:35] So Civic Si, yeah, K20 Z3, right? So, you know, K Series, great motor, right? Yeah, a lot of support. Limited slip, you know, from the factory.

Speaker 1:
[20:46] That is nice.

Speaker 3:
[20:47] Yeah, from the factory. I think my whole list is limited slip from the factory.

Speaker 2:
[20:51] Which is a really underrated thing.

Speaker 1:
[20:52] By the way, before when I said, the one thing you might have to change is like transmission stuff. He's like, nope, not on my list is what he meant to say.

Speaker 3:
[20:59] Because in my head, I was like, you know, some things like an LSD can really change our car drives. The fit doesn't have one.

Speaker 2:
[21:06] But it doesn't really make enough power to need one.

Speaker 1:
[21:10] Have you driven a lot of front wheel drive cars? LSD really can change a car.

Speaker 3:
[21:15] It really, really can.

Speaker 2:
[21:15] I guess I've only ever driven LSD front wheel drive cars on track.

Speaker 1:
[21:18] It really can make a difference. Because otherwise, you'd literally just put no power in it.

Speaker 2:
[21:22] I guess I take for granted, the Elantra N I raced two years ago had a really good diff. That's what makes that car, in a way. The front wheel drive diff on that thing is super developed.

Speaker 3:
[21:33] Yeah, it's point and shoot. Yeah, it's point and shoot. So just with any Honda product, particularly the Civic Si, it just checks all the boxes. It's not particularly flashy or overly exciting or any of those things.

Speaker 1:
[21:47] What can they be had for right now? What's the price point on them?

Speaker 3:
[21:50] Like, eight.

Speaker 1:
[21:51] Eight, okay.

Speaker 3:
[21:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[21:52] So you've got some room to spend.

Speaker 3:
[21:54] You've got some room to spend.

Speaker 2:
[21:56] You can get a really good example.

Speaker 3:
[21:57] Yeah, I mean, for more you could get. So they're ranged, right? But you can find them around, I think, for like eight, nine in that era, right? But it's just like a great daily, great aftermarket support. And just as far as livability plus being able to throw it around and not worry about it, right? Like you can beat the shit out of it.

Speaker 2:
[22:25] The other nice thing is if you do put it off, actually, this isn't even a factor.

Speaker 3:
[22:29] That was probably what I thought of.

Speaker 2:
[22:31] And you could go to any junkyard and get a door and a windshield and a panel and whatever. Because if you have a car that you're scared to track day, because if you go into a wall, you're going to drive slower, you're not going to drive as well. Where if you're eating that thing into corners, like front wheel drive car especially, like big commitment cars, and you're not super afraid of crunching a tail light or a fender or whatever, that changes your driving experience.

Speaker 3:
[22:56] It isn't precious.

Speaker 1:
[22:57] I have never seen you be afraid to crash anything I've ever seen you drive.

Speaker 2:
[23:01] But I'm also an idiot.

Speaker 3:
[23:03] Are they all things that you own?

Speaker 2:
[23:05] Some of them, yeah. Some of them, yeah. Again, like I'm missing pieces up here.

Speaker 3:
[23:09] It's not precious. It's kind of the people's champ, right? It's got broad shoulders, it's blue collar, from a track day perspective, I think.

Speaker 2:
[23:17] I like it.

Speaker 1:
[23:17] All right, so the other one, we might as well stay in the Honda theme is the fit, because to me, I feel like this is like the modern Miata. And here's my thing on this, on the whole Miata piece, is that, hands down, and I don't know, maybe it's on someone's list, everyone thinks it should be the answer, right? I've seen that sticker, Mazda, the Miata is the answer. But I also think one of the things that made the Miata so cool was that, and I was there when the car came out, like I remember when the car was new and my friend's mom got it, was that it was sort of seen as the hairdresser car. And then all of a sudden, it became one of the most raced cars on the weekend, and it became this like if you made, if you were like a normal car person who didn't know about racing, and you made fun of the Miata, somebody would show up and be like, Miata's faster than a 911 on track, they would hit you with all the stuff, most raced car on the weekend.

Speaker 2:
[24:10] And they're not wrong.

Speaker 1:
[24:11] They're not wrong.

Speaker 2:
[24:11] They're not wrong.

Speaker 1:
[24:12] Big shout out to Dean Case and the guys over at Mazda, and they supported that in that era, the Miata did become the most tracked car on the weekend, all the stuff, and it became this amazing car. But part of its heroic element is because it is slightly the unexpected car. And I think the fit is like that new car. That when someone looks at a fit, the average person doesn't go, wow, that could be a great race car.

Speaker 2:
[24:38] That is performance. No, it's like a micro minivan.

Speaker 1:
[24:40] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[24:41] So the fit, I think the fit is great because it's so unexpected as a good track car. And it's not necessarily the best track car, but it's the most fun that I've had in the last decade, is driving a fit. Because it eliminates one, it's full truckable, like full risk, 12 tenths.

Speaker 2:
[25:05] Every corner.

Speaker 3:
[25:06] 12 tenths, 10 quarter.

Speaker 1:
[25:08] It's the epitome of driving a slow car fast.

Speaker 3:
[25:10] Yes, and the like, I have a bit, even though I'm into tracking, there's an anxiety to tracking. Every time you go out there, especially if you approach it without ego, and that goes away with that car, right? So you can refine small details, you can work on your specifics, right? And you can just absolutely blast it.

Speaker 2:
[25:35] There's really something to be said about that.

Speaker 3:
[25:37] Number three, no consumables. Zero.

Speaker 1:
[25:42] Because it's so lightweight.

Speaker 3:
[25:43] It just doesn't go through the set. One set of tires, 12 days. Maybe, right?

Speaker 2:
[25:50] True budget.

Speaker 3:
[25:52] And it's an excellent pickup truck, right? The amount of stuff that you can put in the back of a fit. You can also sleep in it. You can also sleep in it, right? So you want one thing that you can get to the track, you can run the track all weekend, you can get home, you can run the next track day, you can have money left over, and you can just keep sending it.

Speaker 2:
[26:12] And you can make them look cool.

Speaker 3:
[26:14] You can make them look cool, right? Right, so I mean, yeah, Sam Dooling, who runs our tech, he, so he, an example of like perfect fit lifestyle, right? He's got a first gen fit. The second gen fit is just a significantly more progressed and better car as a car, because the fit didn't come to the states till 2006 or something, but it existed from 2002, right? So we got like a four year old car.

Speaker 1:
[26:40] Do you remember when the car first came out, because print mags were still a thing? Remember they did an entire mag on like that segment of car, like Super Street did like a spin-off. Do you remember that?

Speaker 3:
[26:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:50] Because when that car first came out, everyone thought it was cool because the Civic was getting fatter, and this felt more like it.

Speaker 3:
[26:57] The fit is 100 percent the spiritual successor to the EF hatch. They feel the same on track, they feel the same on the street.

Speaker 1:
[27:05] That's how I always feel about the ones.

Speaker 2:
[27:06] You're really selling me on this.

Speaker 3:
[27:08] They do, it's so much, my son has a fit now, so that's his first car, and God, it's such a blast.

Speaker 1:
[27:17] It's funny how you have all those small cars that were popular in Europe or in Asia that we never got here, and then they started to bring them in, and that idea of the spiritual successor of the car, because you think the one series for me is closer to an E30 or an E36 than the modern.

Speaker 2:
[27:36] Like the M2 is like the true M3 of these days, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:39] But also in the Volkswagen side of things, I had an Audi A1, which is a car not sold in the US., and it to me felt like a Mark III, even though it was a 2011. That's why I loved it, because even though it was a newer car, they kind of escaped the blow. And then you just realize that the only problem with new cars is they just got too big.

Speaker 2:
[28:00] They're too big. They're too big and too numb.

Speaker 1:
[28:02] All right, so we need to push through the list. 350Z. Is that top of your list?

Speaker 3:
[28:08] No, this is data driven. If I look at something that has a lot of flexibility, it's rear wheel drive, because that's a preference. I've tracked front wheel drive cars for forever. So it's rear wheel drive. VQ engine's got a ton of support. It's got versatility, right? So you enter into track day culture and want to move into drift culture, want to have longevity out of this vehicle. Tons and tons of flexibility.

Speaker 2:
[28:41] And people know how to make them last.

Speaker 3:
[28:42] Yeah, it's not as like...

Speaker 1:
[28:44] It's unfortunately only available as a three-speed, but... The CD-09 is just one of the weirdest transmissions to me.

Speaker 3:
[28:52] I don't have a...

Speaker 1:
[28:52] It has like a usable... I don't know.

Speaker 3:
[28:54] The power band is weird? Yeah. So I don't know those new ones.

Speaker 1:
[28:57] On certain tracks, it could be pretty advantageous, because it is somewhat full-space fuel.

Speaker 2:
[29:00] For the power level it comes with, it's very long-geared.

Speaker 3:
[29:04] It's not a sports car cumbersome as a package as a C5 or something like that, right? So it has a little bit more flexibility as a real car every day and swappable Japanese parts. So still inexpensive to keep on the track and keep going.

Speaker 1:
[29:23] And as long as you don't straight pipe it, it sounds good. Yeah, right. I will go out there and say the stock VQ just sounds good. Sounds great. My mom had a 350Z, she bought it brand new. It was in manual, great car, sounds fun. It actually fits.

Speaker 3:
[29:36] Factory LSD.

Speaker 1:
[29:37] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[29:38] And depending on year, factory Brembo's.

Speaker 1:
[29:41] All right, of his list, what would you push forward?

Speaker 2:
[29:47] What would I push forward? I'm sold on the fit.

Speaker 1:
[29:50] Yeah, I am too.

Speaker 2:
[29:50] Dude.

Speaker 1:
[29:51] I think the fit is an instant win because I think we need a car on this list that is that type of car.

Speaker 3:
[29:57] Right. We talk about the time attack classes, right? You can almost break them up by cost of operation, right? And that's why Club SC exists as a class because the car is cheap, the cost of operating is cheap, so it's cheap period, fun period. For sure.

Speaker 1:
[30:14] So fit moves forward.

Speaker 2:
[30:16] And my opinion is that the twins, we didn't get super deep on them, but I think the twins move forward.

Speaker 3:
[30:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:24] I didn't even ask questions about it because it's so good. Now, I will say, Gen 1, 40 less horsepower, which is a lot in that car. It's like losing 40 horsepower in the car and it's 60 percent less stiff than the newer Gen. You can fix some of that, but not all of it because it's chassis.

Speaker 2:
[30:40] It gets more expensive to make it faster.

Speaker 1:
[30:45] Yeah. I'm just saying this, we have rules which is under 15 grand. But if you're shopping a $13,000 FRS or a later BRZ, that is the newer Gen, I would get the newer one.

Speaker 2:
[30:56] Every time, but I don't think you can get a newer Gen one for under 15.

Speaker 1:
[31:00] Maybe like-

Speaker 2:
[31:01] I tried. I tried last night.

Speaker 3:
[31:03] No, you can't. You can't. Yeah, you can't.

Speaker 2:
[31:05] They're 20 plus.

Speaker 1:
[31:06] I just had a BRZ a couple of weeks ago, just because I wanted to drive it again, because we did the best driver's car, and it made the list on best driver's car.

Speaker 2:
[31:13] Pretty high up.

Speaker 1:
[31:15] I was like, I just want to go drive it again. Then I went and did a half day of canyons and I was like, yeah, this thing's great. It's just fun.

Speaker 2:
[31:21] Now, what I will say, if you live anywhere that's in any kind of altitude, like if you're living in Utah and you want to do track days, avoid the twins at all costs. Avoid it all. That's the first time I ever drove one, and I thought it was broken. I was like, this can't be, something's wrong.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] All right, so fit moves forward, twins move forward. There's all the really good ones on that list, but maybe we'll get back to them. All right, Ron, do you feel okay with those two moving forward?

Speaker 3:
[31:47] I do. I mean, I would like, in between like the...

Speaker 1:
[31:50] If you could pick your two, what were your two?

Speaker 3:
[31:52] I'd get a fit. I'd get a fit or a GRD.

Speaker 1:
[31:55] Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[31:57] Yeah, I think so. Like, I put the Civic Si is like actually the more balanced package of the two Hondas, right? Like, it has more, but the fit just become cooler, you know?

Speaker 1:
[32:10] I love the fit when it came out. When Dan was running, when Danger Dan was running the fit at Gridlife, he would call me and be like, dude, you need to get one of these.

Speaker 2:
[32:19] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:19] Because he knows that I enjoy that super lightweight, like I would prefer a lightweight car than a fast car. Like, I just enjoy the...

Speaker 2:
[32:25] I will also say, that's a big factor that isn't in our rule set right now, but I think the fit being so accessible to your friends that you could convince your friend to get one, even if they don't have a 15K budget. But I'm seeing out here, there's a movement of like, there's like a fit gang and they all go on track and they'll go door to door, bumper to bumper.

Speaker 3:
[32:45] And it doesn't matter because the pressure is off.

Speaker 2:
[32:47] And it's so much fun.

Speaker 1:
[32:48] And maybe I'm buying a Fit. Let's buy a Fit.

Speaker 2:
[32:49] Let's buy a Fit.

Speaker 3:
[32:50] Yeah, there's no, yeah, it's not precious. And if we think about the journey of track day too, right? So like, I thought about this from the perspective of like, I want a track car, I'm starting this.

Speaker 2:
[33:01] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[33:02] You know, so like there's room to grow and you're not gonna like blow your budget. You also like, here's a weird thing. Like the ability to mod the Fit is limited. It has a ceiling, right? So you will reach the driving potential of that vehicle and then you will have to move on. And that's what you're supposed to do anyway.

Speaker 2:
[33:21] Sure.

Speaker 3:
[33:21] You know, otherwise you're gonna credit card race.

Speaker 1:
[33:23] But you still enjoy going and racing it. Like if you moved on but kept it.

Speaker 2:
[33:26] You'll always love going back.

Speaker 1:
[33:28] Yeah, like it's fun.

Speaker 2:
[33:29] But moving from a Fit to like a big boy car, you will wreck any other driver that just started in the big boy car.

Speaker 3:
[33:36] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[33:38] Again, the Miata of our time because the Miata was that. All right. What do you got? I want to say the Miata of the time. I also think the BRZ or the twins, whatever, is also the modern Miata.

Speaker 3:
[33:49] That's going to be the hero.

Speaker 1:
[33:50] It's the replacement for the Miata that's actually not as available.

Speaker 2:
[33:53] Easily.

Speaker 1:
[33:55] Hit us with your list.

Speaker 2:
[33:56] Okay. I actually have two lists. I'll go through one right now. Two lists? You get one list. I have the obvious list. You're going to want this other one.

Speaker 1:
[34:02] You have a goblin list.

Speaker 2:
[34:02] I have the obvious list and a goblin list. This is like things that nobody would think of, but I've seen on track and I'm like, we might have to save the goblin list for the next round if we got that time, but let's go. All right. Obvious list, C5 Corvette. You could still get them 10 to 15K.

Speaker 3:
[34:21] It was on my list.

Speaker 1:
[34:22] I'm not fighting you.

Speaker 2:
[34:22] Move through. Acura RSX Type S.

Speaker 1:
[34:26] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[34:28] E46 330 CI, Porsche Boxster S, and I also had the Fiesta ST I'm going to start off by saying, I've done a lot of research into the Boxster S.

Speaker 1:
[34:41] And the number one thing that comes out is that that particular engine has oil issues. Oil, cooling, and it's a high-maintenance response to it. I figure what that is. It's like the M96, M97 engine. It is notorious. Now, there's also plenty of people, just like anything on the internet, if you want to find comfort in buying that car, someone will tell you that Accusump makes this and you can get this different pan for it. But right out the box, you're focusing on the problem. There's a good chance that you're going to score that thing.

Speaker 2:
[35:20] Yeah. It's on the list because I think that's such an easy way to get into a Porsche on track. Yeah. It's really cool.

Speaker 1:
[35:28] For sure. It is a fantastic driving car. It handles really well. The only reason it's never on any of my lists is that it's a sub-6.1 driver fit. You would be at the brink with a helmet.

Speaker 2:
[35:40] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[35:41] Yeah. It's a little tight.

Speaker 2:
[35:42] They got a bit nerfed from the factory to not beat the 911. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:46] It's also the expensive hairdresser car. It definitely filled that space of the Miata. But at the same time, I think the Cayman is really cool-looking.

Speaker 2:
[35:54] It's weird just what the top looks like.

Speaker 3:
[35:56] Cayman, you can't make the list. I looked at it. It's too expensive.

Speaker 1:
[36:01] You can buy a Boxster for like- You can get them for like five grand.

Speaker 2:
[36:07] You can get them for five grand, fix your engine issues, and then be on your merry way.

Speaker 3:
[36:10] You can get them and not fix your engine issues until the next track day for like 10.

Speaker 2:
[36:16] Just get another one instead of a hundred percent.

Speaker 3:
[36:20] You can buy three Boxsters and make one good one.

Speaker 1:
[36:25] You know what? Boxers is back on the list. I like that concept.

Speaker 3:
[36:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:30] No, because I looked at it too, because obviously being a Porsche guy, I was like, you know, the Boxster, maybe I don't fit in it, but I've driven them uncomfortably, but I've driven them. I mean, there's an argument that the Boxster is a better handling car than the 911. You would argue the Cayman GT4 is a better handling car. The same argument that people made when the 944 came out.

Speaker 2:
[36:50] And practicality is more balanced. Practicality is very low, but women factor is higher.

Speaker 1:
[36:57] Also, when you're at a neighborhood party, someone's like, hey, do you race cars? You're like, yeah, I race a Porsche.

Speaker 2:
[37:04] I race a Honda Fit.

Speaker 1:
[37:06] Yeah, me and my buddies, we race a Honda. What's that? Is that a motorcycle? No, it's...

Speaker 2:
[37:12] Oh, that's the scooter, right?

Speaker 1:
[37:13] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[37:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[37:14] No. C5 Vet, what's your opinion on a C5 Vet? Because I think like...

Speaker 3:
[37:20] Overdominator, right? Like, it's just, it's a sports car, right? You know, like proper, right? Yeah, so C5 Corvette, not a bad answer for sure, right?

Speaker 1:
[37:30] But also a high consumable.

Speaker 3:
[37:32] Yeah, high consumable, but like a lot of range on it, right? Like, so you can get a lot of life out of that car and like overcook it. I mean, you can enter, I guess, in the time attack classes, you're kind of stuck to a couple, but you can, it's on the upper end.

Speaker 2:
[37:49] I would definitely do sim time before getting in it on track.

Speaker 3:
[37:52] For sure, right? If you're looking for like an expanding challenge that is associated with raw speed, the C5 is a really, really good choice.

Speaker 2:
[38:01] And you can stay with that car for a decade.

Speaker 3:
[38:03] 100%, yeah. And it's pretty bulletproof, you know, like-

Speaker 2:
[38:08] Great gas mileage, the hatch is pretty good. You could fit a lot, you could fit a set of tires in the back hatch. It's decently comfortable as like a tourer, you know?

Speaker 3:
[38:18] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:19] It hits a lot of those points. And I would say, I didn't even think about that factor, but if you've never driven on track, it's probably not a great idea to be in one.

Speaker 1:
[38:28] The one other one I would bring up on that is like, it is not an easily serviceable car. I don't know if you remember the C5 we had at Hoonigan.

Speaker 2:
[38:36] Certain things.

Speaker 1:
[38:36] But like doing a clutch job on a car-

Speaker 2:
[38:38] Doing a clutch is massive.

Speaker 1:
[38:39] It sucks. Like without a lift, like it's not the like easy lift. It's not like something you can service on four jack stands in your garage. But it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2:
[38:49] Yeah. It's a good car. Yeah. There's always someone in the paddock with the C5.

Speaker 1:
[38:54] If you wanted to also go drifting, it's like pretty turnkey drift.

Speaker 2:
[38:59] Very much so.

Speaker 1:
[39:00] It's pretty good.

Speaker 3:
[39:01] I want to talk about the E36.

Speaker 2:
[39:03] Okay. E36 versus E46.

Speaker 1:
[39:04] Did you have E46?

Speaker 3:
[39:05] E46 was on my list, and that's where the Z and the 46 were flip-flopped. I don't know enough about BMWs, in general. But I found that E36s, at least in the variants, are kind of riding the line. They're going up in price.

Speaker 2:
[39:21] So the E36s are very popular because, a nostalgia thing, they look really cool. That's the first M3 anybody really remembers. The E30 was the older head kind of car.

Speaker 1:
[39:30] It's arguably golden era Euro.

Speaker 2:
[39:33] Yeah, it's what's really hot right now. And I think the E46 is on its way there. The E46, to me, is like a car that's got a lot more in it. So like, you can't get into an E36 M3, a decent one, for 15 grand anymore, right? The E46 330i is very close to an M3.

Speaker 1:
[39:58] I went through the same thing, putting together my list, and it's like, the E46 has better engine options in the mid-level than the E36 did. Like the E36 outside of the M3 is like not as great.

Speaker 2:
[40:10] And the E36 just needs a lot more to be track viable, in my opinion. Like BMW, I don't have a crazy amount of experience, somebody might eviscerate me, but in my experience, the chassis needs more work, it needs more money, like it's not as fast, or the 46 is super balanced, great engine options, great transmission.

Speaker 1:
[40:27] It does have all that issues of like tearing the subframe and the suspension, but you can fix all that stuff.

Speaker 3:
[40:32] 46 is your choice, I heard 36.

Speaker 2:
[40:33] No, no, he said 46 is my choice.

Speaker 1:
[40:35] No, he did say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[40:37] But that still explains it, because the reason I didn't put it on my list is because I didn't feel confident in my familiarity with it.

Speaker 2:
[40:43] So the 330i is that little...

Speaker 3:
[40:45] Number two.

Speaker 1:
[40:45] The other thing too...

Speaker 3:
[40:46] And Gridlife.

Speaker 1:
[40:47] The other thing too at the 46 is that the 36 was still in an era where dentists owned BMWs. The 46 was like, you're like, you know, like the person across the street, like a normal person owned a 46. Like BMW kind of dropped down a little bit, sold a lot more cars, got more out there. There's more in yards. I personally think that the 36 looks better. I kind of like how the 36 drives better. But the 46 is one of the only BMWs I've ever owned.

Speaker 2:
[41:20] And you could get a 330i in the 10s. That's a lot of car for 10 grand.

Speaker 1:
[41:24] Yeah. And like the basic engine is like pretty decent. It's pretty stout. I mean, it's the reason why it is like replaced.

Speaker 2:
[41:30] Like a 328, that's where you have to like really nerd out. You have to pick the right. That's why 330 is like very specific on there because that with suspension arms and transmission diff selection.

Speaker 1:
[41:41] What's the engine on that again?

Speaker 2:
[41:43] I think it's a 2.5 liter inline 6, like NA. It's not quite the M3 motor. It's not the S54.

Speaker 1:
[41:51] There's also a massive aftermarket for it.

Speaker 2:
[41:54] Huge.

Speaker 1:
[41:55] I mean, there's so much stuff out there that ranges from the guys who make swap kits and knuckles or whatever in the drift world, all the way to full blown actual race car people.

Speaker 2:
[42:10] Turner, Bimmer World, Garagistic.

Speaker 1:
[42:13] And then all the guys in Europe who we don't even think about, who are building real race car stuff. All right, what else you got on here?

Speaker 3:
[42:20] I want to talk about the RSX.

Speaker 1:
[42:21] Yeah, so this is a car that has now, you brought it up for, one of you guys brought it up for the best.

Speaker 2:
[42:26] It was on my list. It's on my list for many things.

Speaker 1:
[42:28] It's reappeared on this list.

Speaker 2:
[42:29] I think it's slept on. I think there's a lot of them.

Speaker 1:
[42:32] And Nads brought it up the other day.

Speaker 3:
[42:33] I think the Si is the same car.

Speaker 2:
[42:36] Oh, they're probably very similar.

Speaker 1:
[42:38] Is it the same years? Is that the same time period?

Speaker 2:
[42:40] Yeah, yeah, same time period.

Speaker 3:
[42:42] They're hot-swappable, right? Sure, yeah. That's the same dude that has that car.

Speaker 2:
[42:45] To me, it's a look thing, because I really like, I love Integra's. Like, Integra's are where my heart's at.

Speaker 1:
[42:51] It's basically the next-gen Integra.

Speaker 2:
[42:52] And that's just spiritual. Yeah, it is. And you can make them look really cool. I loved them when they came out. I love them now.

Speaker 1:
[42:59] I brought this conversation up with Nads. Nads actually said that he thinks it's like, you're not missing much. Because I said, I was like, do I need to go drive this car? Because one, the Patreon list brought it up. You and Vinny both were like, yeah, this is a car to go drive. And it just is like not on my radar. When did it come out?

Speaker 2:
[43:18] 2003.

Speaker 3:
[43:19] Yep. So it was effectively like the-

Speaker 1:
[43:22] I must have driven this. I was a journalist during this era.

Speaker 3:
[43:24] You very well, buddy. Yeah, it came out after the-

Speaker 1:
[43:29] Yeah, it was the end of DC2.

Speaker 3:
[43:31] Yeah, yeah. And then the RSX came out. And then that's when the EP Civic came out. And the RSX was the clear choice between those two. If you were a Honda enthusiast.

Speaker 2:
[43:38] For sure, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[43:39] Hondas feel a certain way.

Speaker 2:
[43:40] There's a lot of that spirit, isn't there?

Speaker 3:
[43:41] Right, yeah. You get into a Civic Si of any gen, you get into an RSX of any gen, you get into a CRV. You know, like it feels like a Honda.

Speaker 2:
[43:52] That's funny.

Speaker 3:
[43:53] Right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[43:53] And what does that feel from a Honda guy?

Speaker 3:
[43:56] It's just like a different level of like-

Speaker 1:
[43:58] Like where you can hear the wind through all the crevices of cars. Is that the feel?

Speaker 3:
[44:02] That's the feel.

Speaker 1:
[44:03] You can hear that in a strong gust.

Speaker 3:
[44:05] You're like, man, I wonder how-

Speaker 1:
[44:06] I wonder if I did to my dork at-

Speaker 3:
[44:07] Yeah, I wonder how thin this glass is. I mean, I think that's changed a lot like in modern era.

Speaker 1:
[44:13] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[44:13] In modern era. But like, no, it's just a steering feel. And like kind of, you know, it's like I get into the NSX, and it feels like the CRX. You know, like you just like, you know-

Speaker 2:
[44:25] It's like the same design language.

Speaker 3:
[44:27] It's really familiar, right? Like, you know, just all this like kind of nuance and like, you know, how it feels and how you're connected to it.

Speaker 2:
[44:35] Yeah, I get that.

Speaker 1:
[44:36] When I get into like a 992 GT3 RS, it feels just like a Volkswagen.

Speaker 3:
[44:39] Right, yeah, totally. Pretty much a Beetle. Yeah, it's pretty much a Beetle. Yeah, pretty much a Beetle. So like, as far as like, cause on my list, like the Civic would be, you know, I don't know, like it's- You have a connection to it. I'd fight for it because like if you, if one, the data supports it, right? That's number one, Honda, right? Like you go to a track day, you know, you're gonna see-

Speaker 2:
[45:02] Honda's.

Speaker 3:
[45:02] You're gonna see a car in that lineage, right? Because there's like parts from this RSX that can fix that car, vice versa, same thing, right? You know, and in racing too, like Honda dominates. I went and looked at the runoffs winners in the IT category in 1986, Honda wins, you know, like, and every year, every year, right?

Speaker 1:
[45:24] So just just having like, who won in 85?

Speaker 3:
[45:26] I don't know. I didn't go that far back.

Speaker 1:
[45:28] But anyway, we'll get back to that.

Speaker 2:
[45:30] Of course.

Speaker 1:
[45:31] Let's just write it right ahead. I right now vote to move the E46 forward.

Speaker 2:
[45:36] 100%.

Speaker 1:
[45:36] Like I just think that's like a no brainer.

Speaker 3:
[45:38] It's a no brainer.

Speaker 2:
[45:39] Yeah, I'm happy with that.

Speaker 1:
[45:40] So I think now the conversation is what other car moves forward.

Speaker 3:
[45:43] But you got some good cars on this.

Speaker 1:
[45:44] You do.

Speaker 3:
[45:45] So I'm fighting for my Honda fam.

Speaker 1:
[45:48] I want to say because of the limitations with the Boxster from a maintenance side or some of the-

Speaker 2:
[45:54] I'm okay with that one being out.

Speaker 1:
[45:57] I think it definitely deserves mention.

Speaker 2:
[45:58] I think it should be brought up.

Speaker 1:
[45:59] It ends up in the back.

Speaker 3:
[46:00] I think it's only on the list because it's a Porsche. It's not actually like a great choice.

Speaker 1:
[46:05] You're saying like a Pontiac Solstice may be just as good. Another road. So you know what's a car that people don't talk about? Another one, BMW Z3.

Speaker 3:
[46:12] Was the Pontiac Solstice maybe good and nobody knew it?

Speaker 1:
[46:15] Maybe. No, it's not. I drove it on track. I don't know. It was pretty soft.

Speaker 2:
[46:19] You just mentioned one of my Goblin List cars. The Saturn Sky.

Speaker 1:
[46:25] Tune in to the Patreon for the Goblin List because I have my own Goblin List. He has a Goblin List. We're going to do a whole Goblin List on Patreon, but let's keep it on. Okay, that's out.

Speaker 3:
[46:38] The Fiesta ST, I put on my list because I feel like it should be on the list, but it never will be.

Speaker 2:
[46:45] There's nothing that the ST can do that the RSX or Si can't.

Speaker 1:
[46:50] Or the Fit.

Speaker 2:
[46:51] Or the Fit can't.

Speaker 1:
[46:52] Yeah. I would argue that its closest competitor is the Fit. It's about the same size.

Speaker 2:
[46:58] That's right.

Speaker 3:
[46:58] But power-wise, they're dramatically different.

Speaker 1:
[47:02] No, the ST is almost 200 horsepower. It's 197.

Speaker 3:
[47:06] I owned a Fiesta and I owned a Fit. The Fiesta is a garbage car compared to the Fit. In every single aspect, garbage.

Speaker 1:
[47:16] On track, though?

Speaker 3:
[47:17] Everything. Everything about it. The interior packaging, the switches, the knobs, the feel, you know, like the UX. Yeah. All of it. Like just as a car.

Speaker 1:
[47:28] It's funny because me and him have a lot of experience in the Fiesta ST because of Ken's sponsorship with Ford and that car being brought over. But they were given to us like disposable candy. So we just were like, whatever. We didn't care that none of that worked because it was like, I don't know, we just crashed another one. I mean, we ended up giving what, like 30 of them to Timo Neal.

Speaker 2:
[47:49] Which they're still going. I drove some of those last year.

Speaker 3:
[47:52] Garbage cars may be a little bit harsh, but like by comparison to the Honda Fit because they're in category. They're like up, they're head to head for the common consumer.

Speaker 2:
[48:01] Sure.

Speaker 3:
[48:01] Like not even close.

Speaker 1:
[48:03] But you can get it.

Speaker 3:
[48:04] Not even close.

Speaker 1:
[48:05] But you can get an ST for about the same price as a Fit.

Speaker 3:
[48:09] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[48:09] And the ST is making just shy 200 horsepower out of a 1.6 turbo that's a pretty decent engine.

Speaker 3:
[48:15] It's probably a more exciting car right out the rip because of its speed. Right. And its ability to make speed and it's got an LSD as well, I think. And it was designed for that. It was designed as a hot hatch. The Fit accidentally became one because it was so thoughtful in every other aspect. Right? You know, like.

Speaker 1:
[48:40] Man, what a diss. You tried to build a performance car and Honda just mistakenly built one.

Speaker 2:
[48:48] Just because that's our DNA.

Speaker 1:
[48:49] Just because it's what they do.

Speaker 3:
[48:50] I mean, I still think the Fit is a performance car, but it's a great track day car, right?

Speaker 1:
[48:54] From his list, we moved forward the Fit and the Twins.

Speaker 2:
[48:58] And the Twins, okay. I feel like if E46 moves forward, the RSX.

Speaker 1:
[49:02] And E46 are you there?

Speaker 2:
[49:04] RSX has to be there.

Speaker 1:
[49:05] Instead of the ST?

Speaker 2:
[49:06] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:07] So you guys both fill RSX over that.

Speaker 3:
[49:09] I agree with that, right? So that checks the box of like, because the Civic, the RSX, they're similar chassis.

Speaker 1:
[49:16] So now between those two and the C5 Vette. Like, by the way, we are stacking a heavy front wheel drive class.

Speaker 3:
[49:25] No, I understand. I think.

Speaker 2:
[49:27] And I think it makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1:
[49:28] But it's budget. Front wheel drive is a very compact system.

Speaker 2:
[49:32] Definitely.

Speaker 1:
[49:33] Less things to break.

Speaker 2:
[49:33] For me, it's the battle of C5 Vette versus C46. And I think the deciding factor there, and I don't know the answer, but it's I would pick the C5 all day, any day. But I have, you know, I'm very lucky to have a lot of driving experience. So the C5 is way more exciting to me. But starting out, I think E46 would be better. And just from a longevity standpoint, like, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:57] So E46 and RS6 is what we're saying.

Speaker 3:
[50:00] I would, between the RSX and the C5, I would choose the C5. And I'm a Honda guy. So like, I am going to be heartbroken that the SI, if the SI doesn't make the list and the RSX doesn't make the list. But I also think that it would be in the price point for track day cars. If the C5 is mentioned and doesn't make the list.

Speaker 2:
[50:20] Yeah, that is, I completely agree with that. For me, it's either C5 or E46 to move forward because they're very similar.

Speaker 3:
[50:28] Then E46.

Speaker 1:
[50:29] My top three from your list are the Vette, the 46, and the Fiesta ST, mainly because I have experience in all three of them.

Speaker 2:
[50:35] The big difference is what the RSX gives you is VTEC and not even as a joke. Part of the fun factor of being in a car is even if you're not going that fast, when you're at 8,000 RPM, you feel like you're ripping. You feel like a hero. You know, versus an ST is like lower in the rev range, just a little lazier, like you'll be fast. But like experience wise, are you going to go home and be like, bro, I can't wait to do that again?

Speaker 1:
[51:04] But say that same thing now and you're comparing a C5 Vette.

Speaker 2:
[51:08] Yeah, but the C5 Vette is like, I can't believe I made it home.

Speaker 1:
[51:14] By the way, I can't afford to go back to the track because I smoked those tires and I flat spotted those.

Speaker 2:
[51:19] Which is cool, because the sound of the V8 just playing over your head when you're powering out of a corner, so sick.

Speaker 1:
[51:28] So what is it? We got to move forward, guys.

Speaker 3:
[51:30] Well, who chooses?

Speaker 1:
[51:31] We choose as a group.

Speaker 3:
[51:32] As a group, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:33] I think we've narrowed it down. Here's what I'm hearing. We've narrowed it down to the E46 moves forward. We've all agreed there. E46, C5 Vette, RSX.

Speaker 3:
[51:43] I think the C5 moves forward.

Speaker 1:
[51:47] Let's do the quick vote because it always comes down to a vote. Is it C5 Vette, RSX?

Speaker 2:
[51:54] C5 Vette. I mean, between those two, C5 Vette.

Speaker 3:
[51:58] I would have chosen that SI over the RSX.

Speaker 1:
[52:00] E46 or RSX?

Speaker 3:
[52:03] E46.

Speaker 2:
[52:04] E46, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[52:06] You did it both back to back. I know you want the RSX to move forward.

Speaker 2:
[52:09] That's fair.

Speaker 1:
[52:10] Okay, so here we are. This is where we currently sit. We have, from your side, we have the Twins, aka the FRS BRZ, and we also have the second gen Honda Fit. You have brought to the table the BMW E46 330i, and in addition, the C5 Vet. That's where we stand. We're going to take a quick little break. We'll come back and I'll give you guys my list, which is probably also a Goblin list. Here we are with another storytime interruption brought to you by my good friends at FCP Euro. Look, if you are a frequent listener of Very Vehicular, you know that I have been threatening to call the herd. Sell cars. That's what I've been threatening to do. A couple of days ago, I decided, you know what? I'm going to make the first step. And the first step is posting a feeler post. See who's interested. And to my dismay, a lot of people were interested. The car in question is my 1991 Audi 200 Avant 20 valve turbo. The problem is it just doesn't fit what I want right now. I got a couple of other wagons. I think I want to swap this out for something else. So I figured put it up on the chopping block. Over the weekend, I decided it was time to clean it up, take those photos, try to actually move it and sell it. Unfortunately, I fell back in love. How could I possibly get rid of it? So I deleted the post and immediately went to fcpro.com and just started filling the cart with a bunch of things. Cause see for me, if I have a lot of parts to finish a car, it makes it a lot harder to sell, right? I mean, this makes sense. So I started getting all the basics. And the first thing is suspension bushings. This immediately makes a car better. I had a squeaky belt. I replaced that. I needed a clutch master. Pick that up. And a few other things. And of course, a whole bevy of liquid moly fluids, you know, cause it makes the car feel happier. So anyway, I did all that. And I guess the car is not for sale anymore. If you too are looking for an excuse not to sell a car, head over to fcpeuro.com, invest in some more parts and get that project of yours back on the road and off of the classified posts. Keep it off of Marketplace, guys, stop selling cars unless you're selling them to me. Let's face it, living the low life does come with its drawbacks. When I first got my RWB 911, there were only 3 gas stations in all of Long Beach I could get into without ripping the front bumper off. Luckily, KW Suspensions then introduced the Hydrolift system to raise your car to adult heights. The HLS2 lifts the front axle while the HLS4 lifts them all. It's available as a complete kit or an add on to your existing KW coilovers. And it works out to 50 miles an hour, meaning you don't have to take every dip in the road at that douchey 45 degree 2 mile an hour crawl. Check out kwsuspensions.com to find a kit for your slammed ride. Wait, I love that you just start by laughing.

Speaker 2:
[54:52] Scotto's smile of just what you're packing in that notebook right now is probably, this is my favorite part of Firing Wave.

Speaker 1:
[55:01] I actually think I might disappoint you. Because I think I, well, one, I have a lot of overlap from everybody else.

Speaker 2:
[55:07] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[55:07] And as I started to go through my list, because we created the rule of no engine swaps, it really makes a lot of the cars that I would normally go after not work. So for example, I love the 944. I think it's a really fun platform. It's a fantastic driver. The car and the chassis is really good, but the stock 944 engine is pretty blah and lackluster. And the car needs either an inline five swap, shout out to the Blues Brothers, or like an LS swap. It's one of the cars that is actually the current engine in it. It takes so much effort and work to make it not just really sporty, but viable. So I just like, but at the same time...

Speaker 2:
[55:54] I mean, spec 944 exists.

Speaker 1:
[55:56] It was a thing.

Speaker 2:
[55:58] I actually did look at 944s as well, but same thing, kind of a semi-gutless engine by comparison.

Speaker 1:
[56:05] Unless you get the turbo, but the turbo is 20 grand plus now. It's not as inexpensive.

Speaker 2:
[56:09] Right, right, right. And in this list in general, I think the audience will notice not a lot of turbo cars. And I think that's by design, right?

Speaker 1:
[56:17] I might change that on my list.

Speaker 2:
[56:18] Okay, nice. Well, let's get into it.

Speaker 1:
[56:20] Okay, so at the top was the Corvette C5 on the things that were even said, because it's just for enjoyment. Like, I know it's gonna not be the easiest. I know it's gonna be the one that's gonna have a ton of issues and have the consumable element. But you can also get most of the parts for it in Napa, which is kind of nice.

Speaker 3:
[56:42] No, totally.

Speaker 1:
[56:43] You can race that anywhere in America and not only find parts for it, but find someone who knows how to work on it.

Speaker 3:
[56:49] And you can race it in a variety of applications.

Speaker 2:
[56:54] Almost everything.

Speaker 1:
[56:55] And having gotten to once drive a Pratt & Miller C6, I know the capability of what that car could end up in the end.

Speaker 2:
[57:04] I love the growth path of it.

Speaker 1:
[57:06] And what was the Compuware, that era.

Speaker 2:
[57:08] So good.

Speaker 1:
[57:09] Cars are just so cool. But we've already said it, we've already moved it forward. The Twins was also on my list. It's that car that, I don't know if I would ever own one, but I'm a huge champion for it.

Speaker 3:
[57:22] I'd look at it and think about owning it several times over. I don't know if I'd ever actually own one.

Speaker 1:
[57:28] I'm about an inch too big for it. But a new seat could change that. But I'm an inch too big to own it every day. But it's still, for a small Japanese car, the fact that it fits my six foot eight frame is pretty amazing. I can still turn laps in it. I had to do this with a helmet, but it kind of works. I wouldn't pass any actual regulation because I have no room.

Speaker 2:
[57:49] If I wasn't gravel-obsessed, I would be in one today easily.

Speaker 1:
[57:54] So the next one for me is another repeat. And this is what always becomes a problem because it means that my list ends up being my two goblins, so I can get forced forward because I just repeat all the ones. But this is one that didn't make it forward, which is the Fiesta ST And I think there's something really, that is a car that it was on, that's the only car that's on all three of our lists. So even though we haven't moved it forward yet.

Speaker 2:
[58:19] Very interesting that it made all three.

Speaker 1:
[58:21] And for me, I think it has a lot to do with, one, the small chuckability of it. The 1.6 turbo is a fun motor, 200 horsepower out the box. They're really affordable. I mean, you can find them for seven or eight grand, which is a really, really good buy for what that car is. And then, I will go to this one, which may be, I just, this is an entire platform space or configuration that we have not talked about, which is we have no all-wheel drive cars on our list. GDWRX. He's given me a look of like, that's a nightmare.

Speaker 3:
[58:59] I mean, if you want to oil down the track, that's a good choice.

Speaker 2:
[59:02] Oh, spoken from experience. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:05] I mean, you had one, but I considered it. Like, it's in the affordable space. Look, the Audi guy in me wanted to say an Audi, but like, there's no Audi for that price that is reliable and isn't going to be a huge nightmare. Maybe an RS4 would be kind of fun. I mean, an S4 would be kind of fun, but like a B5 S4, but like, they're a huge pain to work on when things go wrong, they're not that easy to service. And the minute I say it, Ron's like, the engine's in front of the struts, which is...

Speaker 2:
[59:33] No, not only that, I think the reason why you don't see a lot of all-wheel drive cars on here is because like a GD is an amazing daily, really fun in different conditions and everything. On the track, it will not make you a better driver because you're just fighting understeer. And with that car, it's an open diff in the back, it's an open diff up front, like the center is not breakable. So, you would have to do so much to it to make it rotatable, that like you're out of your range.

Speaker 1:
[60:06] The problem is the STI, which I think is a better option.

Speaker 2:
[60:09] Phenomenal.

Speaker 1:
[60:09] Because you do have-

Speaker 2:
[60:10] If you could find an STI for 15 grand, go for it.

Speaker 1:
[60:12] The thing is, the 15, you're getting the bottom of the barrel for it.

Speaker 2:
[60:16] Dogged.

Speaker 1:
[60:16] Like, yeah, they used to be that you could pick them up there. I mean, I bought my STI for 12 grand.

Speaker 2:
[60:21] I got my Evo RS for 15.

Speaker 1:
[60:23] Yeah. Unfortunately, good ones are now in the 20s. And the ones that are left over, they have seen a life you don't want to know about.

Speaker 2:
[60:33] And I think the problem is the anxiety of, you can stay flat out in a Honda all day, every day, every lap. Don't worry. Pull it back in, whatever. With an EJ, unfortunately, you're always kind of worried. Is this going to blow up? Is this going to whatever? And the transmission on those years isn't great either.

Speaker 3:
[60:51] We have a lot of Subarus in the Gridlife ecosystem. For sure.

Speaker 2:
[60:55] Great platform.

Speaker 1:
[60:57] I also looked at the Gen after. I forget what that one is, but the 2008 era WRX.

Speaker 2:
[61:02] Those are much better.

Speaker 1:
[61:03] Yeah, I looked at that as well. Having driven both, I just enjoy how the like the GD, it just feels like a lighter car.

Speaker 2:
[61:11] It looks and feels proper.

Speaker 1:
[61:12] Steering feels better. Like you drove, you had yours, which is the reason you're named RonCar because we called that car RonCar.

Speaker 2:
[61:17] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[61:18] But you had a lot of experience in that car in a very modified world.

Speaker 2:
[61:24] From bone stock, because I started my first track day I did in it, I just had wheels and tires. Then I evolved it to full swap everything. It's an amazing mid-range car.

Speaker 3:
[61:38] The thing that it lacks is the simplicity of a lot of the other cars that we've talked about. So that's really it's only detriment. It certainly is an option. It certainly is viable if we're looking at cheap track day car. It doesn't come up.

Speaker 1:
[61:52] Because what you're saying is even though the chassis can be found, what it takes to make it better, to make it compete is a problem.

Speaker 3:
[61:59] No, I mean, not necessarily. It's just the, I wouldn't even necessarily say that they're not reliable. They just have more things that could go wrong. That could break. It's more complicated. Just being an all wheel drive system, there's just more.

Speaker 2:
[62:17] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[62:17] It's just more to deal with.

Speaker 1:
[62:18] So let me ask you a question. If it was an STI?

Speaker 2:
[62:21] Absolutely. It would be high up on this list, but it's hard to find them in that price.

Speaker 1:
[62:26] By the way, if anyone's got a nice white Blavai, let me know.

Speaker 2:
[62:30] Two.

Speaker 1:
[62:31] I'd like to buy one.

Speaker 2:
[62:32] A Hawkeye for me.

Speaker 3:
[62:33] Yeah. I still wouldn't put it on the track day list for me as a track day car.

Speaker 1:
[62:38] Sure. I mean, that's one of the first real, I think, accessible turbo cars.

Speaker 2:
[62:43] Oh, for sure.

Speaker 3:
[62:44] Now, I'm remembering that era, and just how much of a splash that, and when the Evo finally came stateside, it was like-

Speaker 2:
[62:51] The arms race started.

Speaker 3:
[62:52] It was ape shit. I remember my buddy Sterling sold, he showed up, we used to have this meat every Thursday, T-Bell night. So it was like we'd go to Taco Bell every Thursday, park in the parking lot, get some T-Bell and hang. And then Sterling-

Speaker 1:
[63:08] He calls it T-Bell.

Speaker 2:
[63:09] I know. T-Bell all day.

Speaker 3:
[63:11] Yeah, yeah. And then Sterling showed up, quietly bought a new Evo.

Speaker 2:
[63:16] Oh, that doesn't let anybody know. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[63:18] And then he rolled up, we're like, what the fuck is that? You're like, oh shit. Yeah. I'll never forget that. That was a rad moment in time.

Speaker 2:
[63:25] That era defined the car world for me. WRC was on Speed Channel, watching the whole season, learning who Petter Solberg is, watching these cars. You could get the same thing at the dealership. You get one, the Evo 9 came out and with a downpipe and a tune, somebody ran 11.9 and that was like...

Speaker 1:
[63:45] Wasn't the Hawkeye that had the sprayer for the water sprayer? From the factory?

Speaker 2:
[63:51] Changing the balance of the center diff, front to rear. The vortex generator in the back, auxiliary lights, it had all the buttons, it had all the things.

Speaker 1:
[64:01] I'm going to bring my last one. My last one, I will start by saying that it's outside of everything we've been talking about. And that is, it is a Mark II Volkswagen GTI 16 valve. Specifically 1989 to 1991, right? Okay, here's why. This just goes for the bang for the buck thing, right? It is under 2,000 pounds in race set. That means with a full cage, you're under 2,000 pounds. 16 valve engine is about 135 horse stock. It is a really, really well proven recipe. They raced them. I mean, there was like a GTI Cup in America. There's GTI Cups all over the world. And it is just a really fun, simple car to drive. I prefer the Mark I as a driver, but the Mark II is just a better chassis. Like, it's just, it's a little bit more adorable. If you crash a Mark I, like the front subframe is integral to the chassis. So like you have a bat off and you might write off your, you might write off the whole car. Like the Mark II has like, it shares parts with the Mark III. If later on you want to swap in an engine, there is a huge list of Lego parts that fit, as well as brakes. You can do junkyard upgrades to that car. Like you literally, that car, you can keep running because Volkswagen basically built parts that fit into that all the way until now, right?

Speaker 3:
[65:30] The EG of your world.

Speaker 1:
[65:31] Yeah, and it has, I want to say this, it was the Miata before the Miata. Like that and the CRX were two cars that people didn't take seriously in the world of racing and then would get shown up by one on track, right? Like those are the cars, like runoffs, like SCCA runoff. That was a car that did really well, right? Like you go back and you look like, you know, was it David Wallins from, you know, Grassroots Motorsports, like he owned one, like Per Schroeder owned one. It is one of those cars that all the people who wrote about racing when we were younger, all had one. And I've driven one on track. I've owned one as a personal car. They're great. Like it's really simple and they're very, very, very easy to work on, comparatively to a lot of the newer stuff. There's no electronics. That's like, it's basically, it's electric controlled mechanical CIS injection, which like, I don't love the CIS part. It's definitely a thumbs down moment. But if you can keep it working, it's kind of fine. It's like Motronic CIS, it's whatever. But that for me, I think is like, it's outside of what we're talking about in terms of all these other ones, I think show up and you can kind of buy them and they're like ready, right? This might take a little bit more of a week to get it going, but shit, I bought a car, I bought a Mark 1 in New York and then went directly to Lime Rock with it. And all I did was put R888s on it, which was really dumb. It almost rolled the car.

Speaker 3:
[66:55] A little too sticky, a little too sticky, right? Your suspension's not thick enough to slide those down.

Speaker 1:
[66:59] I was almost like a focus guy who rolls at the autocrats.

Speaker 2:
[67:03] Oh my God, yeah, classic. Chris, you had a line in the group chat last night.

Speaker 3:
[67:08] I don't remember what I said.

Speaker 1:
[67:10] You said, I have the data, only six Volkswagens have been raced.

Speaker 2:
[67:14] He's like, I have the data of over 10 years of cars on track in Gridlife. Every event, every year, every month, hundreds of cars, six Volkswagens.

Speaker 1:
[67:26] And my guess is they probably all, my guess is recently they probably marked sevens. The marked seven, marked seven and a half.

Speaker 2:
[67:32] Great car.

Speaker 1:
[67:32] Great car. The problem is, the reason I didn't bring it to the list is I think when you look at the German front-wheel drive offerings, it's really good, right? I would probably pick it over like a Mini, right? Even though the Mini's also really good and probably a box-a-lot car.

Speaker 2:
[67:48] All day, every day, pick it over a Mini.

Speaker 3:
[67:50] We've had Minis on the track too.

Speaker 1:
[67:52] Yeah, and I think it's a great one. But I know that it's a hard fight to put that up against the Civic Si, right? For what it is. Not saying that that, like, of all of the modern Volkswagens, everyone I talk to, they're like, yeah, seven, seven and a half. I've also never driven one on track, so it's hard for me to speak. What I'm saying, though, is like, for the pure fun factor, this is why we like the fit. The fit is trying to be and trying to emulate.

Speaker 2:
[68:21] It's a Honda fit with a different kink.

Speaker 1:
[68:22] A CRX or an original Golf.

Speaker 3:
[68:25] It's an underdog story.

Speaker 1:
[68:26] It's an underdog story. One, everyone will root for you. You can actually be the slowest person there and still get high fives.

Speaker 3:
[68:31] It's an underdog story.

Speaker 1:
[68:32] It's an underdog story. But there's also just a rawness. That car just has a night, for a front-wheel drive car, it has really good connection to steering. You can feel everything in it really well. You probably could build the whole car for 15 grand. Although 16 valves are getting a bit more expensive.

Speaker 3:
[68:48] How much are they?

Speaker 1:
[68:49] There's one for sale right now for seven grand in a good color. So that's like, if you found a bad black or something, less people are excited about it, you can probably pick one up for like five.

Speaker 2:
[68:59] What's a good color?

Speaker 1:
[69:00] Montana green.

Speaker 2:
[69:01] Oh, yeah. That's a good one.

Speaker 1:
[69:05] Look, I'm obviously biased to my Volkswagens, you're biased to your Hondas. There can be arguments made both directions. But we don't have a single car in this list that's really even 90s or 80s. And I just think that there is, and I know there's a reason for it.

Speaker 3:
[69:20] Yeah, there is a reason for it.

Speaker 1:
[69:21] There is a reason for it. But like you, I don't know, I just, for me, just as a pleasure side, it's like, if I was to pick between a fit and like a GTI, I would probably choose the GTI because I enjoy suffering. I realize that the fit would be such an easier ride. But like, I think from a smile level, like there is just something fun about that. For you, would you pick that era Honda?

Speaker 3:
[69:48] Well, I'm like, I like no too much, right? It's like, I think about safety and I think about like, even with like my, like I'm a CRX guy, right? I think about my CRX, I think about a C5 Corvette, I think about us sharing the track, I think about the modern era of tracking, I think about new Supras and big cars and tiny cars.

Speaker 2:
[70:10] Just how fast everything's gotten from tire tech alone.

Speaker 3:
[70:13] Yeah, so that's probably like a bias that I shouldn't present, you know, because like I like my... It's a good conversation. Yeah, no, like my CRX, it's like, you know, like shit, I don't want to get hit by somebody else on this track, you know? Not because I'm worried about getting hit on track, but because of like how far vehicles have come and who you're sharing the space with at this point, right? So it's like, if I'm looking at Civics, right? Like I am an EF, you know, I am an EF kid, like through and through, you know? You could probably, for 15 grand, you could probably find an EG, you know, you could probably find, you know, an EK, you know, so like that's why like some of the things that I really love and gravitate towards, like didn't make the list because I'm thinking about this moment in time, which sucks, but it's like kind of like, yeah, we're vintage racers.

Speaker 1:
[71:06] I know, isn't that weird? We are vintage racers, we're like the guys who are like taking out like their old E-types or whatever.

Speaker 3:
[71:13] We're vintage racers.

Speaker 2:
[71:14] They are, I'm a mid-range racer.

Speaker 3:
[71:16] Yeah, well, I mean, but that's- You're getting close.

Speaker 2:
[71:18] I'm getting close.

Speaker 3:
[71:19] You know, that GTI that you're presenting is like, it's vintage, that's a vintage class, so, but I would choose like, I would probably choose that car over the Fit, you know, like-

Speaker 1:
[71:30] From an experience.

Speaker 3:
[71:31] With all that stuff removed, right, with everything that I just said from a practicality, with everything that you're thinking about in this moment in time, you know, that would be a much, a much-

Speaker 1:
[71:41] All right, well, unfortunately for you guys, because I'm at the end, and a lot of my choices have been picked, there's not that much, you only get to choose between the three, because it's either Fiesta ST, GD WRX, or the 1990 Mark II, Mark II 16 about.

Speaker 3:
[72:00] I feel like there's some kind of tactics that you can find. I think the Fiesta goes on the list.

Speaker 1:
[72:03] Because it's been brought up so many times.

Speaker 3:
[72:06] Right, it's forgotten about.

Speaker 1:
[72:08] Let's repeat for everybody. So we have the Fit, we have the Twins, we have the C5 and the E46. So we're actually now pretty stacked rear wheel drive. And then we just moved forward the Fiesta ST, so it's another front wheel drive car.

Speaker 3:
[72:31] So now we're WRX versus the Golf.

Speaker 1:
[72:35] Versus the Vintage Racer.

Speaker 2:
[72:37] You don't even have to ask me. And I'm not just saying that to go against you, as much as I enjoy that.

Speaker 3:
[72:45] I would move the WRX forward, not to crush your hopes and dreams. I get it, I get it. But I think it's a different era for the moment, right? Like it's vintage, you know? I wouldn't say, like, somebody asked me, hey, I want to get a track car. I wouldn't be like, oh, you really need to find like a, you need to find a 1990, you know, EF hatch because it like had the updated, what I did it. That wouldn't be what I would say, you know? So with that being said, you know, the WRX, because one, it brings diversity to the list because there's a lot of fans of all-wheel drive.

Speaker 2:
[73:20] A lot of fans.

Speaker 3:
[73:20] You know?

Speaker 1:
[73:21] And once you fix a few suspension things on it, it's great. The car is great.

Speaker 3:
[73:26] And that's got a wide support.

Speaker 2:
[73:27] Crazy aftermarket.

Speaker 1:
[73:29] Crazy aftermarket.

Speaker 2:
[73:30] One of the biggest.

Speaker 1:
[73:31] And I would also argue that the GD also has a recipe. Like so many guys have raced it both on a very basic level to full-blown time attack, like crazy, you know, era. I mean, you think about a lot of the cars we looked at and dreamed about in Super Street in the early days were like time attack STIs, the Jonato ones.

Speaker 2:
[73:51] Bunch of camber up front, big old sway bar in the rear. Like you could get it to do some stuff.

Speaker 3:
[73:56] Yeah, no, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[73:57] Okay, so our list as we move into the blind spot right now is not a Volkswagen Golf. So I just double checked. I'm just double checking, $60 off the list.

Speaker 3:
[74:07] Almost.

Speaker 1:
[74:08] I tried to fit it in. I tried to fit it in. I get your point. I get your point. Maybe we'll have to do a vintage, what we call neo-vintage. So it's like the neo-vintage track car list.

Speaker 2:
[74:20] That could be a really fun one.

Speaker 1:
[74:21] Cars built from like 75 to 95.

Speaker 3:
[74:23] Yeah, I mean, we open up a grassroots motorsports from 1999 and you'll see all these cars.

Speaker 1:
[74:32] Because these are all, this is what they're racing.

Speaker 3:
[74:33] Those are the cars you could afford.

Speaker 1:
[74:35] Which is one of the reasons why it's on the list for me, because it has been on my list and I have researched it since 1996.

Speaker 3:
[74:41] Right, right.

Speaker 1:
[74:42] Since that era, I have researched racing these cars. Like, there is a wealth of knowledge right here in my brain.

Speaker 3:
[74:49] You were rattling on that.

Speaker 2:
[74:50] You had to call Scotto.

Speaker 3:
[74:51] Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1:
[74:52] I was about to start really, and I was like, I'm not going to go. I was like, Steve Bolden, you're leaving. You were both disassociating from the conversation. I was going to start talking spring rates and I'm like, all right, I'm out.

Speaker 3:
[75:02] Layer two, layer three. And I was like, was he going to step in a layer four? Is it going that deep?

Speaker 1:
[75:07] I told Nick, I was like, all right, I was like, the hill I'm dying on today is a Mark 2 GTI 16 valve. But yeah. All right. So here's our list. We have C5 Corvette. We have Honda Fit. I just love saying those back to back. And then we have FRS slash BRZ, aka the twins. We have the GDWRX, which spans the 2002 to 2007 span. And then we have the Fiesta ST And last but not least, we have...

Speaker 2:
[75:43] E46.

Speaker 1:
[75:44] E46. E46 330i, which is important because you can get some pretty...

Speaker 2:
[75:48] You can get some bonzo ones.

Speaker 1:
[75:49] Some pretty bonzo E46s out there. So...

Speaker 3:
[75:52] It's a good looking track day.

Speaker 1:
[75:53] So that's a good looking track day.

Speaker 3:
[75:54] That's actually a great track day. Isn't that a good looking track day?

Speaker 2:
[75:57] That's a great track day.

Speaker 3:
[75:57] Yeah, like, think about the special aisle ones.

Speaker 1:
[75:59] We all know the GD's going home on a AAA flatbed, but it's still a flatbed.

Speaker 2:
[76:02] And the Corvette's lapping everybody.

Speaker 3:
[76:04] No, it's a good looking track day.

Speaker 1:
[76:05] Or sending it into the wall.

Speaker 3:
[76:07] That's a good looking intermediate session. I think so.

Speaker 1:
[76:09] That's decent. So now we break out the blind spots. So the folks on Patreon have put together their list of things, of things that we tend to miss. And I've actually found this to be super useful. By the way, if you don't belong to Patreon, go join. If this two and a half hour or the other three hour shows is not enough, which all of you are complaining to do a five hour show, you just get more on the Patreon. But you also get to be involved in the background of making shows like this. Okay, Jackson B says vintage racing stuff. He's like E21s, Datsun, Celicas, Rabbits. We just had that conversation.

Speaker 2:
[76:47] And there is one answer for all of those that crushes them all.

Speaker 1:
[76:51] He said, when he said this, I mean, this is like, I should add him as a friend somewhere. He said, something you can throw a Weber or two on for that nasty 100 horsepower at the crank. This man has been reading my diary.

Speaker 2:
[77:03] This is a Scotto fan through and through. There's one answer for that. And it crushes everyone else. Lotus Alon.

Speaker 1:
[77:09] By the way, Jared aka Chappell, who we talked about earlier, or we talked about in the Patreon special, he's like 15,000, jeez, that's not a budget. 6,000 is a budget. And you know what?

Speaker 3:
[77:21] I agree.

Speaker 1:
[77:22] Originally, I was gonna put the number really low, but I do think it starts to kind of be this like, it's slightly unrealistic, or you end up only being, you're like, yeah, I want a Golf 16 Valve. Because like, you can't buy, you're either buying-

Speaker 2:
[77:35] It's just a fit spec class.

Speaker 1:
[77:36] Well, no, you start getting into the like, can you search and find a car that cheap?

Speaker 2:
[77:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[77:40] Like, I'm sure I could find a salvaged, crashed BRZ that I could build back up to make a track car. You could definitely find everything we've set on this list. For example, our C5 Corvette, we bought for five grand.

Speaker 2:
[77:51] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[77:51] So that car is possible at five grand.

Speaker 2:
[77:53] But that was kind of a unicorn deal.

Speaker 1:
[77:54] But I so hate when you watch YouTubers and they're like, budget build. I bought a 911 off my friend for six grand. You're like, yeah, that doesn't exist anymore. We bought the Knuckle Busters M3. I bought for two grand, E36. Like, you can't buy that anymore. That's gone.

Speaker 3:
[78:09] That's over.

Speaker 1:
[78:10] So it's like it's really...

Speaker 2:
[78:11] And that thing was worked. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[78:12] It's really the window of that.

Speaker 3:
[78:14] I think it was a good price range because it gets you to the point where you're considering things that you can't get. And then you can really easily come in under with everything on our list. Easily. So then you talk about budget, you still got to get to the track. Still got to pay for that stuff.

Speaker 1:
[78:30] So we got a wild card here. Someone said Lexus IS250. Oh. So that was the manual transmission option, right? You could get the manual in the 250.

Speaker 2:
[78:40] I think you could get manual, but that's the thing is that they're kind of tough to find.

Speaker 3:
[78:43] Yeah. So that seems like a hunt. I don't necessarily disagree that that would be...

Speaker 2:
[78:48] And it's on the heavier side.

Speaker 3:
[78:49] Yeah. It's on the heavier side. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[78:51] If you're looking at that, just get a Z. Same experience.

Speaker 3:
[78:54] Just get a Z.

Speaker 1:
[78:55] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[78:55] Yeah. On the heavier side.

Speaker 1:
[78:57] There's a lot of people in here saying Z's, C4 Corvettes, Mark IV Golf 1A Turbos.

Speaker 3:
[79:02] Not a C4 Corvette.

Speaker 1:
[79:03] C4 is like a completely different suspension. C5, C6 is like the Corvettes made for us.

Speaker 2:
[79:08] If you want to spend most of your life on the internet learning how crossfire injection works, get a C4. I forgot about that.

Speaker 1:
[79:15] I had to learn how to do that just to help Kyle fix his car. Let's see what else. We obviously have our Europeans bringing in things like the Renault, like the Magaine, the Magon, the Clio, things like that. Obviously, not in our world. Other people are bringing up the Boxster. We talked about that. Someone here said the Toyota Echo or the JDM Vitz First Gen. I don't know much about that car, but they wrote a lot about this and it actually sounds pretty exciting.

Speaker 3:
[79:41] Because it's a fit size vehicle.

Speaker 2:
[79:44] That's like the whole B-Spec class.

Speaker 3:
[79:46] There's a spreadsheet that is put together that tells you every single car that we know of that fits into the Sunday Cup class, Clesse.

Speaker 2:
[79:55] Oh, nice.

Speaker 3:
[79:56] Yeah, so where it fits. And it's a ton of cars.

Speaker 1:
[80:01] Yeah. I got another one. Someone brought up the RX-8, which the RX-8 is the perfect example for me of an amazing car. It just needs a different engine. That falls into the 944 category.

Speaker 2:
[80:12] Or completely different gearing.

Speaker 3:
[80:13] The RX-8 has been rising in conversation throughout my worlds.

Speaker 1:
[80:18] Have you driven one?

Speaker 3:
[80:19] No.

Speaker 1:
[80:19] They're fantastic. We got into the driver's car side.

Speaker 3:
[80:24] Same key. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[80:26] I feel like they look like a botched circumcism, but that's fine. It's like, it's so weird. There's some foreskin. What's this door? It's just on one side. There's extra flaps. I don't know. It just looks like something went wrong there. That being said, I still, like, they're just, they're really, really fun to drive. Like, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[80:47] Great chassis.

Speaker 1:
[80:48] It's just that the reliability of the Renes's engine is really problematic.

Speaker 3:
[80:52] Yeah. They're in the range cost-wise.

Speaker 2:
[80:54] Oh, easily. Easily.

Speaker 1:
[80:55] This is a huge blind spot. I questioned putting it on my list and I just couldn't, but like it was S197 Mustangs.

Speaker 2:
[81:02] Yeah. I looked at those.

Speaker 1:
[81:04] I just have, I have done a lot of track time in those cars and I never liked them. I just didn't, I get that they can be quick. I just didn't enjoy them driving. I remember doing a road trip with Vaughn and we went and did some track stuff. I just kept asking him, I'm like, do you really like how this car drives? He was like, this is one of the best sports cars. I'm like, no, it's not. I drive sports cars for a living and write about them. I do not enjoy driving this car.

Speaker 2:
[81:31] The fit and finish and how the interior feels is like if Fisher Price tried to make an actual car.

Speaker 1:
[81:38] People are going to go super hard in the comments because there is an entire group of people who track those. Do you see a lot of them on your side or is it a different demo?

Speaker 3:
[81:45] We've got Mustangs, but if the C5 exists on this list, why do you need the Mustang?

Speaker 1:
[81:50] Good point.

Speaker 2:
[81:51] Exactly.

Speaker 3:
[81:51] I agree.

Speaker 1:
[81:52] Because if you want the big V8 power, you just get it better on the C5.

Speaker 3:
[81:55] They check the same box and the C5 is clearly a better choice. You would get a Mustang and you would track a Mustang because you're a Ford guy.

Speaker 2:
[82:01] Exactly. You have to be that dude.

Speaker 3:
[82:03] Or you like Mustangs. Otherwise, C5 wins that conversation hands down.

Speaker 2:
[82:09] Easily.

Speaker 1:
[82:10] Another one, I mentioned this quickly before, the BMW Z3, preferably the 3.0. I think that is another Miata type of vehicle. I had that almost on my list, but it's also a vehicle I barely fit in.

Speaker 3:
[82:25] Roadsters don't make it to my thing.

Speaker 2:
[82:28] They're not really in your realm.

Speaker 1:
[82:29] They're just outside the space.

Speaker 3:
[82:30] Yeah, I mean, they certainly are sports cars.

Speaker 2:
[82:33] You lose a lot of practicality, too.

Speaker 1:
[82:35] Sheb Garfield says the Mark 2 GTI Golf, and then he says, yes, I'm biased, and then you realize his avatar is a Mark 2 GTI race car.

Speaker 2:
[82:45] Comment how much Scotto paid you.

Speaker 1:
[82:48] Mini, we talked about that. Here's one that I thought was really interesting, and it made me go do a marketplace hunt last night, and then do some research. But it said the 190E in its base, it says, incredible suspension, boring engine. And it's like, I only really know the 190E is the Qazi version, which is like the 2.3 variant. But I was like, I wonder if, and then I started reading, and a lot of people say that the 190E is such an amazing chassis car, but just doesn't have a good engine. Obviously, that doesn't fit into this group. But I found people who do 2J swaps for them, and then I just was like that. I lost a good hour and a half last night researching. I was like, man, a 190E with a J, that could be pretty good. One of the best sounding engines. Let's see what else we got here. A lot of Hondas are on this list.

Speaker 2:
[83:43] I'm so glad that my Goblin list has not been cracked.

Speaker 1:
[83:47] There's a lot of Hondas are on here. FC, FBRX7, I think that fits into what we're saying, Neo, that's our Neo Vintage kind of class. Someone brought this up and I went and looked at it cause I actually thought, man, this actually might not be a bad competitor and something I don't think anyone's talked about is the Veloster N.

Speaker 2:
[84:06] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[84:06] Because that and it's, but it's on the cusp.

Speaker 2:
[84:09] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[84:09] It's on the cusp, like, yeah, you can find one for 15.

Speaker 2:
[84:12] But it's not gonna be a great example.

Speaker 1:
[84:13] They're not there yet.

Speaker 2:
[84:15] And if you're spending that much, you might as well.

Speaker 1:
[84:16] They're not there yet, but like, that's actually like.

Speaker 2:
[84:18] Really fun car.

Speaker 1:
[84:19] Really fun car.

Speaker 2:
[84:20] We spent some time in them and it's a very, very, like, nice handling car, good power.

Speaker 1:
[84:24] That's gonna be one of those brands that in 10 years from now, you'll see a lot of Elantra ends and Veloster ends on track because they probably won't keep their resale value.

Speaker 2:
[84:32] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[84:33] You'll be able to go rip them off.

Speaker 2:
[84:34] And somebody will make them really cool, like a group of guys will make them awesome. And then you see the resurgence.

Speaker 1:
[84:39] All right. So, oh, and here's another one, which I kind of love. John Bowser Matthews says, the Crown Vic.

Speaker 3:
[84:51] Crown Vic has kind of the same type of aura as a fit, right? So they kind of fit into the same category of like track day clown car a little bit.

Speaker 2:
[85:01] I mean, I've spent a good amount of time racing Crown Vicks as well, and they're fucking great.

Speaker 1:
[85:06] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[85:07] They're really fun.

Speaker 1:
[85:08] Yeah. We were just talking about that last time, the taxi derby. Obviously, Cletus' race.

Speaker 2:
[85:13] I've done three of the Cletus races, and I got to race Bristol Motor Speedway in one, and A, it's terrifying, but B, you really have to be good. It teaches you a lot of stuff. It's a big, heavy, boaty car. You have to be very deliberate and very smooth with your inputs, and you can learn a lot from that.

Speaker 1:
[85:31] I just want to bring up a comment that was added about the WRX, and I kind of forgot about this for other regions. Fantastic ice racing car. And if you live in the north, there is really easy accessibility to ice racing. And we talked about this before, having a track car that can bland and do other stuff, or even things that could be fun to go do an autocross with, like seat time, seat time, that does actually give the WRX, because none of the other cars we talked about are that much fun in ice racing.

Speaker 2:
[85:56] And there are a few things that are more fun than ice racing.

Speaker 1:
[85:59] I know, it's really good. It's really good, yeah. All right, other than that, there's really not much other stuff on the, I feel like we've mentioned, oh, yeah, this is the other one that was a blind spot. This just is like, this car is a blind spot, full stop. Like, I just never think about this car, ever. The Toyota MR2.

Speaker 3:
[86:21] It was on my list and then off my list and then back on my list, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[86:25] Again, small car, I don't really, I got a chance to drive, but when I was doing research into this, it definitely shows up on lists.

Speaker 2:
[86:33] Yeah. Sport compact car back in the day, they tried to make it like even close to a stock Elise and they couldn't.

Speaker 3:
[86:41] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[86:41] But very cool looking and it might be really fun. I've never driven one.

Speaker 3:
[86:45] It looks like a bar of soap. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[86:48] Well, that's what people said. They were like, it's basically an Elise because it's the same engine. And then I read a review and it said something to the effect of like, it's got all the things about the Elise except for the things that make the Elise great.

Speaker 2:
[87:00] Right.

Speaker 1:
[87:01] I was like, okay.

Speaker 2:
[87:03] There is a guy here locally in SoCal Drivers Club. He has one that's built, looks sick, looks like an absolute blast. And it's like, makes you kind of think.

Speaker 1:
[87:11] Yeah. Okay. So here's the part of the game where we get to make a decision of whether or not anything on the list of the blindsides moves forward. And when I say that, it has to take the place of something else. And I want to bring this up because this is a blindside that would normally be the car, which is the Miata MX-5, was on none of our lists. And for the audience, we had a pre-production conversation about putting this all together. It's on Patreon. And originally, we were going to say top five track day cars that are not the Miata because we all thought that the argument was that the Miata would be in first place. The Miata is not on my list. I'm six foot eight is the dumbest car for me to drive. Also not on Ron's list because I think you also have a height issue in the car.

Speaker 2:
[88:04] Not even that. You just think it looks like perfectly still wouldn't pick it just.

Speaker 3:
[88:08] And it wasn't on your list just because it doesn't need to be. It's already on enough lists.

Speaker 1:
[88:12] And all right. So like it.

Speaker 3:
[88:14] And I wouldn't I had an NA Miata, you know, like that for a little bit. You know, like if I was going to buy one, I'd probably buy an NB, you know. And but I wouldn't.

Speaker 1:
[88:24] Yeah. We we had Sharkart, which was fantastic. But amazing. But it also had a supercharger on it.

Speaker 3:
[88:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[88:29] Like which made it was not as much fun without what made Sharkart awesome when we saw the body when we removed everything that looked like a Miata from this is sick. Yeah. The number one way to make the Miata goal was to make it not look like a Miata. Yeah. So, all right. So I mean, I just because you know that there are people right now listening to this frothing that we are saying that the greatest top five cars does not include.

Speaker 2:
[88:54] They can froth.

Speaker 1:
[88:55] Does not include the Miata. All right.

Speaker 2:
[88:57] That's fine.

Speaker 1:
[88:57] We're moving forward.

Speaker 2:
[88:58] Well, wait, you had an argument for the eighth gen Civic Si.

Speaker 3:
[89:02] Yeah, the eighth gen Civic.

Speaker 1:
[89:03] So you think the eighth gen deserves a swap out? And I will say, I will say looking through the list of everybody who was in the blind spot, it was constantly repeated. It was like it was on almost everybody's list.

Speaker 3:
[89:15] Yes. So I think to not have a Civic on the list, you know, it is a little crazy. It's crazy.

Speaker 1:
[89:22] A little crazy. You think if you had to choose between the Civic and the Fit, which one would you choose?

Speaker 3:
[89:27] See, this is tough, right? So like I would choose the Fit because it's the spiritual successor to my experience, you know, and it's the cheapest to operate. However, you know, if you want to...

Speaker 1:
[89:40] Also, I don't believe I'm saying this out loud, it oddly looks cooler.

Speaker 2:
[89:44] Yeah, oh, then the HN Civic, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[89:46] Because the HN is just an interesting car, like you said.

Speaker 2:
[89:48] It's just a small Honda Odyssey.

Speaker 3:
[89:50] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[89:51] It's what it is. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[89:52] Yeah, so, but you know, the Civic is flexible, right? Like you can wheel the wheel it, you know, it's got the K motor, right?

Speaker 2:
[90:01] You can really grow into it.

Speaker 3:
[90:02] Yeah, you know, like it's...

Speaker 1:
[90:03] Are you a big K motor fan as a Honda guy?

Speaker 3:
[90:05] Um, I don't have any cars that have a K motor.

Speaker 1:
[90:09] I feel like it's the LS of Honda engines. And I don't say that, like...

Speaker 3:
[90:14] It's like the LS of everything.

Speaker 1:
[90:16] Yeah, but it's like it's the LS of small motors, but it just doesn't sound good to me, which is a huge part of the experience.

Speaker 3:
[90:22] Yeah, I'm a B-Series guy.

Speaker 1:
[90:25] Full support.

Speaker 3:
[90:26] Yeah, so yeah, like the CRX I'm building is B-Series, you know? So, and that's my build, right? And I'm taking the B-Series that came, that I had in my track car and doing like a full, if I was going to do it again, right? In 2002, I'd do it like this. And that's my final boss.

Speaker 1:
[90:44] Alright, so you're making the argument that 8th Gen should be on the list, but instead of what?

Speaker 3:
[90:49] Instead of the Fiesta, 100 percent.

Speaker 1:
[90:52] So the Fiesta is unfortunately, by the way, I do want to point out, so the Fiesta is the bridesmaid, like always the bridesmaid, not the bride. Because it has been invited to each of our lists, but it doesn't get to come to the honeymoon suite.

Speaker 3:
[91:05] It was a sympathy vote, even on my list, I was thinking about it and I was like, Focus ST, Fiesta ST, I was like, I like smaller stuff, Fiesta.

Speaker 1:
[91:13] Fiesta ST is a way better cart than Focus ST Way better, yeah. Yeah, it's like not even close.

Speaker 3:
[91:18] So it was a sympathy vote from the RIP, and it sounds like it might have been a sympathy vote across the board.

Speaker 1:
[91:26] I think it actually, in my mind, so it was going to be a blind spot for everybody. So I was surprised to hear you say it, less surprised for you to say it. We obviously have rally background, so it's a car that has value there. But it was just kind of like a fun, whippable car, really good price, and not a Honda.

Speaker 3:
[91:40] So that's why I put it on my list, because I like people forgot about it.

Speaker 2:
[91:43] Totally.

Speaker 1:
[91:44] I mean, look, so let's just play the game. So SI, SI or ST?

Speaker 3:
[91:52] SI, 100%.

Speaker 2:
[91:53] SI. Begrudgingly, because I would rather have the RSX. But still, between those two, yes. The SI and the RSX are similar.

Speaker 1:
[92:03] If you had to choose between the SI and the RSX, what would it be for you?

Speaker 3:
[92:07] SI. Yeah, because the RSX, aesthetically, you know, like, oh, I think the RSX is a better-looking car.

Speaker 2:
[92:19] Way better-looking car.

Speaker 1:
[92:20] I mean, the SI, to his point, you know what the SI looks like is you took a photo of the Odyssey and you were in Photoshop and you grabbed the wrong thing and you're like, and it just like squashed it. That's kind of what it looks like. You just rescaled it by mistake.

Speaker 3:
[92:34] Just because of the angles and the like.

Speaker 2:
[92:36] Headlights. Yeah, the headlights. Headlights and the slope of the hood and the front bumper.

Speaker 3:
[92:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[92:43] I remember when that car came out looking at it and being like, oh, the mighty have fallen.

Speaker 3:
[92:46] Yeah. Like, it was a little bit spaceship.

Speaker 1:
[92:50] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[92:50] Right.

Speaker 2:
[92:51] I'm out.

Speaker 1:
[92:52] It's just boring. Do we want to then have the argument of RSX or SI?

Speaker 2:
[92:56] You know my answer.

Speaker 3:
[92:58] I think amongst the Honda community, they're similar, right? So like, you know, 8th Gen, it's like that's the best of what we can, you know, what you can get in that price range. But like, you can't lose.

Speaker 1:
[93:08] So here's the thing. I, if I had to vote.

Speaker 3:
[93:11] Body panels.

Speaker 1:
[93:11] You guys are on the two sides.

Speaker 3:
[93:12] Replaceable parts.

Speaker 1:
[93:13] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[93:14] Bits and pieces, odds and ends. The RSX is going to be more expensive.

Speaker 1:
[93:18] I never see RSXs on the road anymore.

Speaker 3:
[93:20] Much more difficult, you know, in that regard. And like, you're going to have to hunt for one.

Speaker 1:
[93:26] So right now it's a tiebreaker. You guys are both on the side. I obviously don't have much experience in either. I'm going to take his argument. I live in a moderator world here. His argument for the panels and that it was ubiquitous in the list on Patreon. So we'll move to SI. Okay. So this gives us our final list, right? I have it here so I don't make any mistakes. We have going into the final round, the Ultimate Rumble, the Corvette C5, the E46 330i, the Twins aka the FRS BRZ, the Honda Fit 2nd Gen, the Subaru WRX GD, and the 8th Gen Civic Si, which just bumped out the Fiesta ST Yep. All right. You guys ready to have that conversation?

Speaker 2:
[94:10] Good lobby.

Speaker 1:
[94:11] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[94:11] Good lobby. I like it.

Speaker 1:
[94:12] We're going to take a quick break. We'll come back and we'll order these bad boys, rank them. It's the Snack Intermission brought to you by Vyper Industrial. Today, we have something of substance because our boy Chris said he's actually hungry today. We have Bobo's PB&J Grape. You know how you have those friends who you've just done really crazy, elicit stuff with, like donkey shows in Mexico? That's what Ron is to me, but in the snack world.

Speaker 2:
[94:41] In the food game.

Speaker 1:
[94:41] Yeah, in the food game. We have eaten some very questionable things.

Speaker 2:
[94:45] Seeing this man make combinations that would make a nun blush.

Speaker 1:
[94:49] The look of this is like a solid two out of ten.

Speaker 3:
[94:53] This is pretty dense.

Speaker 2:
[94:55] It is dense.

Speaker 3:
[94:57] It is dense.

Speaker 1:
[94:58] It is dense.

Speaker 3:
[94:58] It is dense. So, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[95:00] I will say this though, it's one of those snacks that the more you chew, the better it gets.

Speaker 2:
[95:05] I wish it went harder on the J than the PB.

Speaker 3:
[95:08] You want more filling. Yeah. You want like a little bit more in it.

Speaker 2:
[95:11] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[95:12] No.

Speaker 2:
[95:13] Not bad though.

Speaker 1:
[95:14] Hit it with a score. You start. Out of 10.

Speaker 3:
[95:17] Out of 10?

Speaker 2:
[95:18] It's a 7. Wow.

Speaker 3:
[95:20] Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[95:22] I'm going to hit it with like a 5.

Speaker 1:
[95:24] Yeah. I'm there on a 5, too. Man, now that I like read the family story, I want to give them like at least a 6.5.

Speaker 2:
[95:30] You know what I mean? See?

Speaker 3:
[95:31] There you go.

Speaker 2:
[95:32] I'll bump it up to a 5.5.

Speaker 3:
[95:34] Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[95:35] It's a cliff bar for 8-year-olds.

Speaker 1:
[95:37] I actually like I haven't eaten today, so like it's good from a substance side. It just doesn't really check the snack part. Yeah. Well, since you enjoyed it so much, you get the extra one. You can save that for later. Anyway, back to the show. All right. The time has come. We got to rank them. So first up is something's got to die. We got six things on the list and there can only be five. So I'm going to start this. You start first. What would you kill?

Speaker 2:
[96:05] Okay. Might be controversial. Yeah. I would kill off the twins. Wow. Off of this list, I don't see a reason for them to be on if you have access to the 330i and the C5, only because the first gen, the limitations on the first gen. If this was a second gen, it would beat out the E46 to me. But as we sit right now, I think you would have a lot more fun. You would have an equally cool, if not cooler looking car in the E46 and a C5 is not leaving. So, why have that much of the same thing, you know?

Speaker 1:
[96:44] What would you kill? You get to kill anything on the list.

Speaker 3:
[96:47] Probably kill the WRX.

Speaker 1:
[96:49] You'd kill the WRX, okay. Why?

Speaker 3:
[96:51] Complexity, once again. Just because if we're talking about track day things, you track a WRX because you love WRXs. You don't necessarily get a WRX because you really want to track.

Speaker 2:
[97:03] That's fair.

Speaker 3:
[97:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[97:05] I'd kill the SI because having... I've driven the Fit, and I have driven the SI too because I probably was on the press launch, but I don't either of them really stand out to me. I might not have had a full track day with either of them. But from you explaining the two, if I had to pick between the two, I would go Fit and I just feel like killing off an all-wheel drive car on a track. I don't know. I just feel like they're too similar. You would never own either. Do you understand? If you're looking at this list and you're saying one of these cars might speak to me, I would say that the E46 and the C5 are completely different cars. It's a real drive sedan, even if it's a two-door, it's a sedan in base versus a proper sports car format transaxle. I guess you would say the BRZ also sports car but way smaller, definitely more of a momentum car. It's pretty much a roadster with a roof, lives into smaller footprint. Again, I like all-wheel drive cars, that Subaru does that for me. To me, the two that feel like they're in competition is like the fit to me seems like a lighter, more chuckable version of the SI. But you could correct me because you have way more experience.

Speaker 3:
[98:28] If you were presented with the two as like a track day car, the novelty of the fit and the practicality, like if you spread sheeted it, there's no way you'd choose the fit over the SI. Factory LSD, K-motor, one of the best motors of our era.

Speaker 1:
[98:48] Huge aftermarket.

Speaker 3:
[98:49] Huge aftermarket.

Speaker 1:
[98:50] I don't know if I'd say best one of the era, but keep going.

Speaker 3:
[98:53] Good for making power. One of the most popular motors of our era.

Speaker 1:
[98:57] That is for sure.

Speaker 3:
[98:58] So a good version of that, of that motor. And intended to be a sporty version of the economy car that it's based on.

Speaker 1:
[99:10] It arguably is a performance variant.

Speaker 3:
[99:11] There is a fit sport, but that's just a lip and a spoiler. Right? So it's like, yeah, there's nothing. Now, like a driving experience wise, the fit I enjoy more because it feels like an EF to me. Right? That's a tough, that's a tough thing. Right?

Speaker 1:
[99:30] And that's what I think attracts me to it. Because to me, before we were talking about like, you know, the spiritual successor, the fit to me feels closest to the Mark II Golf 16 valve that you wouldn't let me put on the list. So, like, I would protect the fit in that fight. Because I think that's the experience. If I want to take a front-wheel drive car out on track, I want to go enjoy it being really lightweight and chuckable. I'm not trying to do C5 things in it.

Speaker 3:
[100:00] You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:
[100:01] Like, I think at a certain point, like, people try to push front-wheel drive cars too far. It's like, just get a different car.

Speaker 3:
[100:05] The Civic is still lightweight and chuckable.

Speaker 2:
[100:07] Yeah. I would say the fit has to stay because it is the most truly budget out of all of the ones on the road.

Speaker 1:
[100:15] Yeah, and I think it has...

Speaker 2:
[100:16] And running it in the long term.

Speaker 1:
[100:17] I also think it has way more of a future. I think that there is this world where, like, you go back and listen to this podcast five years from now, and a bunch of these cars don't appear on the list anymore, but the fit kind of still does.

Speaker 2:
[100:30] The fit might stay.

Speaker 1:
[100:31] Because I think other things may work. Or also, there's no new cars that are great, so it's probably just BRCs and Fits.

Speaker 2:
[100:36] It's just the list stays the same.

Speaker 3:
[100:37] If you're thinking about that, I would say that, like, the Civic would remain on that list because the fit doesn't exist anymore, right? We only made it three Gens and now it's done. Now it's an HRV.

Speaker 1:
[100:46] Yeah. All right, so we got to kill something. So all three of us have said something different. So you said kill the twins.

Speaker 2:
[100:52] I still think it's the twins.

Speaker 1:
[100:53] You said kill the GD. I said kill the SI.

Speaker 2:
[100:56] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[100:58] Does anyone feel closer to someone else's choice here? We can get into both.

Speaker 2:
[101:01] I'll say one more thing about the twins is that I think you're capped on progression very quickly.

Speaker 1:
[101:06] Because of that engine. Without having to do a swap.

Speaker 2:
[101:08] Without having to turbo it or do a swap or just spending a lot of money on it.

Speaker 1:
[101:13] Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[101:14] As far as front wheel drive cars, we have the fit and we've got the SI.

Speaker 2:
[101:18] Yeah. Kind of both sides of the spectrum.

Speaker 3:
[101:20] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[101:20] In my opinion.

Speaker 3:
[101:21] I mean, they're so similar.

Speaker 2:
[101:22] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[101:22] Honestly. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[101:23] So here, if you had to choose between ours.

Speaker 2:
[101:25] If I had to.

Speaker 1:
[101:26] Kill the Subaru or kill the SI, what would you do?

Speaker 2:
[101:32] I'd kill the SI. Because the fit gets you a lot of the same type of things. The Subaru, very regional, of course. But the second it rains on track, you're smoking everybody. Usability, anywhere where it does have a lot of winter time, way more usable. It's a great daily.

Speaker 1:
[101:52] By the way, I did do one lab of America and an STI. It's when it rains that you're the number one car out there.

Speaker 3:
[101:59] Having a representing diversity of preference too. That's all drivetrains if that remains.

Speaker 2:
[102:07] That's true.

Speaker 3:
[102:08] I do think, I already made the argument of Hondas all have this similar soul in regards to the way that they feel.

Speaker 2:
[102:15] So you're still getting it one way or another.

Speaker 3:
[102:17] You're still getting it.

Speaker 2:
[102:20] That's not an easy decision.

Speaker 3:
[102:22] It feels like a shame that an SI doesn't make it on the list.

Speaker 1:
[102:25] I know. Let's talk about his or you do with the two of us. Would you kill the twins or would you kill the WRX?

Speaker 3:
[102:35] That's a tough one, too. I think that the twins are going to be very pervasive in the culture for tracking moving forward. I think they are going to be an absolutely dominant chassis 10 years from now.

Speaker 2:
[102:52] I don't disagree with that. I just think in our current rule set, with everything else presented, that's where we are today. The second that the most recent gen car becomes available, sub-15K, forget it.

Speaker 1:
[103:05] Okay, so you would kill the... You wouldn't kill the twins.

Speaker 3:
[103:09] No.

Speaker 1:
[103:10] You'd actually kill the S-O-I in that conversation.

Speaker 3:
[103:12] Yeah, in that conversation, I think I would. I don't think...

Speaker 1:
[103:15] So in that math, between... This is kind of gets out of... I don't know if this math makes perfect sense, but you want to kill the WRX, you want to kill the twins, and I would probably argue to keep... I think I'd argue to keep the twins. Because even though, like, I mean, I just think that that... And it was on my list to begin with as well, I think for the same reason as he does. It's the last of a generation of analog cars, and they're still making them right now. Like, realize the Gen 2 car, the parts are interchangeable. So it's like you have a car that is still... You could still go buy new parts for at a dealership, and that may continue for another couple of years.

Speaker 3:
[103:58] There's a CLTC car running, Gen 2 motor, Gen 1 chassis doing very well.

Speaker 2:
[104:03] And I will say, they do look really cool. And again, like, I guess I do have to agree that the twins will make you a better driver than a GD would.

Speaker 3:
[104:13] I killed the SI once when we did my list in the first place, because the twins...

Speaker 2:
[104:17] You can't kill it twice.

Speaker 3:
[104:18] The twins in the fit went forward, you know?

Speaker 2:
[104:20] True, true.

Speaker 1:
[104:21] So in that conversation, no one saved the SI. So I think we... So it now becomes... So we lose the SI? Do you and I both agree of all the cars to lose? We lose the SI? No, I think...

Speaker 3:
[104:33] I mean, I've been arguing for the intention of the SI, right? Like the reality is like, I'm a Honda guy, and I haven't... It hasn't been in my actual consideration for a very long time, because, you know, my heart kind of like stayed around, you know, the 4th gen, 5th gen, 6th gen era, you know, so...

Speaker 1:
[104:52] So if we can't figure this out through this weird math I tried to put together, because this doesn't work in a traditional voting, because it's the 6th place. Let's look at this and say, what car is 6th place? If we just did one out of six, what car is the bottom of the list from the group? What would you put? If you were to do a ranking of this current ranking, what would be last place for you? That's basically what the car you cut is.

Speaker 2:
[105:22] I mean, same answer.

Speaker 1:
[105:23] The twins. The twins. So twins is at the bottom for you.

Speaker 3:
[105:26] At the bottom.

Speaker 2:
[105:27] Yeah. But again, I've spent so much time with the WRX, and I know how fun it is in any other conditions outside of the track too. I know that doesn't count towards this conversation.

Speaker 3:
[105:38] This is why you need a gridded notebook.

Speaker 1:
[105:40] Yeah. This is why you need a gridded notebook.

Speaker 2:
[105:43] A phone can't do this.

Speaker 3:
[105:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[105:47] All right.

Speaker 2:
[105:47] Still not drawing straight lines, but still.

Speaker 1:
[105:49] So for me, I have the SI at the bottom, and you have the WRX at the bottom.

Speaker 3:
[105:56] Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[105:59] Let's just ask, where do we think, let's look at the opposite of the SI, or not the opposite, but the alternative, which is the fit? Where does the fit live on the list? Where does it live for you?

Speaker 2:
[106:12] Somewhere around the middle. Because it's not like an absolute must-have, but I really like it that it's an entry for almost anybody into having a lot of fun on track.

Speaker 3:
[106:22] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[106:22] So let's just say, and I say the same, I think it's like position four or three. Yeah. Where does it live for you?

Speaker 3:
[106:29] I mean, it's hard, right? Because in some lists, I'd put the SI really high up at the top, right? But I don't think I'd put the fit at the top.

Speaker 1:
[106:37] This is what I was trying to get you. It's like, I want the fit on the list, but the fit's not number one.

Speaker 3:
[106:42] No. I'd put the SI, like if I was between those two, it's like you got to put one of these two in number one. I put the SI in number one just because of the practicality of everything that I know about what tracking is like. The fit gets this kind of fun.

Speaker 1:
[107:02] It's a hero. It's like an underdog hero.

Speaker 2:
[107:04] It's like bordering on novelty though.

Speaker 3:
[107:06] That shouldn't do that. That shouldn't be like that. That shouldn't be that much fun, right? The SI is like intended.

Speaker 1:
[107:11] Again, this is the same reason. That's why I'm like, it's the modern Miata. Because I think that the Miata is a great car. I think that the fit's a great car. But I also think that they get more credit than maybe do because they don't fit the traditional mold of a race car or a sports car to the average automotive person.

Speaker 2:
[107:30] I guess also out of everything on this list, it is the one thing that isn't intended to be a performance car.

Speaker 3:
[107:36] No. No. I mean.

Speaker 1:
[107:37] That is very true.

Speaker 3:
[107:39] Yeah. You can put camber in the rear.

Speaker 2:
[107:41] Whoa. That's crazy. Wow. Solid beam.

Speaker 1:
[107:44] Wait. Really?

Speaker 3:
[107:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[107:47] That's like a Mark 216 though.

Speaker 3:
[107:49] Yeah. I mean, you can but it's difficult. It's not like you can get a kit for it.

Speaker 2:
[107:54] Pressure's on. I know. Are we about to kill the fit?

Speaker 1:
[107:57] I mean, it almost seems like the fit's swapping with the Si as we talk through it. Yeah. At the end of the day, the fit is a really great novelty. It deserves to have been in conversation as long as it has.

Speaker 2:
[108:08] It put up a great fight.

Speaker 1:
[108:09] It put up a great fight. But if you're really going at it and you're saying, you have money to go build one track car, and you're not going to build it.

Speaker 2:
[108:17] When you put it that way.

Speaker 1:
[108:18] It's different if you were going to go race in the spec fit series, because then there's a reason to go. But if you're just going to your local track and you're about to get smoked by GT3 RSs going around, would you rather be in a fit or would you rather be in the SI? I ask you, I don't have the experience.

Speaker 3:
[108:36] No, you'd be in the SI. So you're coming to the fit. You need to be with your peers too. That's what makes it really fun as well.

Speaker 1:
[108:47] The minute you're not driving in a spec series, and maybe this is where-

Speaker 2:
[108:51] That could all of a sudden be not fun at all. Because on a regular track day, you're not going to have a bunch of other fits. You'll have any one of these.

Speaker 1:
[108:58] Right. This is where I think the romantic idea of the fit starts to fade. When you show up to a track day and there are no other fits.

Speaker 3:
[109:06] It's still a really great choice.

Speaker 2:
[109:08] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[109:09] Which is- It's made it to the final round.

Speaker 2:
[109:11] It's a sub 10K king.

Speaker 3:
[109:12] It's still a really, really great choice.

Speaker 1:
[109:15] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[109:15] But if you-

Speaker 1:
[109:16] Do you have a problem putting it in last place?

Speaker 2:
[109:18] No.

Speaker 1:
[109:18] And killing it? Do you have a problem putting it in last place and killing it?

Speaker 3:
[109:21] If the SI remains, my heart's breaking for both of them. I know. I know.

Speaker 1:
[109:28] If you were to choose between the fit and the twins on the final list, would you keep the fit above the twins?

Speaker 2:
[109:35] No.

Speaker 1:
[109:36] Okay. I think we can make it official.

Speaker 3:
[109:38] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[109:38] The fit has been removed and struck from the list.

Speaker 2:
[109:41] Again, very impressive fight for what it is.

Speaker 1:
[109:43] It also went from you and I both are like, yeah, it's in third place, third or fourth to no, it's out. You never know with these things. You have to have the conversation and you got to think through the pieces.

Speaker 2:
[109:52] It's super important to put it in context.

Speaker 1:
[109:53] All right. We now have come down, we've knocked out the fit, we're in our top five. What's in fifth place? What is the thing that would have also gotten knocked out? It seems like the twins was on your list.

Speaker 3:
[110:05] WRX.

Speaker 1:
[110:06] WRX was on your list.

Speaker 3:
[110:06] Yeah, still.

Speaker 1:
[110:07] I think now it's just the conversation of WRX or twin.

Speaker 2:
[110:11] That's a really hard one because it depends on where you are, but I think for most of the country, you would put the GD last.

Speaker 3:
[110:18] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[110:19] All right, so if you guys outvote me, I would put the GD above the twins, but that's only-

Speaker 2:
[110:24] It pains me because I love the GD.

Speaker 1:
[110:26] I just think it's an all-around more fun car.

Speaker 2:
[110:29] It is.

Speaker 1:
[110:30] It's more fun stoplight to stoplight.

Speaker 2:
[110:32] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[110:32] It's more fun.

Speaker 2:
[110:34] But again-

Speaker 1:
[110:35] No, the twins also a really fun car. They're both really good.

Speaker 2:
[110:37] Again, in the twins, if you start out in those and then you get money or you get a better car or a bigger car, you're going to be warm.

Speaker 1:
[110:45] I will say one thing though, just from a track day side, it's way easier to get all your shit in a GD to the track.

Speaker 2:
[110:51] That's true.

Speaker 1:
[110:51] You can fit a spare set of wheels in the back.

Speaker 2:
[110:53] You can fit a lot.

Speaker 1:
[110:54] You have a trunk space for toolbox, jack, all of that. There's very little room in the-

Speaker 3:
[110:59] I think of the twins because they're like, they sit in this space that's just below the totality of their potential. You're like, man, this is good, not great. Because it's good, not great, it's like getting a little bit more of a ding than it deserves because what else checks the boxes that those cars bring to the table?

Speaker 1:
[111:19] Nothing.

Speaker 3:
[111:19] Nothing, nothing. So what else? WRX sits in its own world too.

Speaker 2:
[111:25] Purely on the fact that you can do twice as many laps, stress-free, in the twins versus the WRX.

Speaker 1:
[111:32] Which we've done, we have beaten the hell out of that car.

Speaker 3:
[111:35] But just the fact that they made it, that it got made, the WRX as it exists, it's an Impreza.

Speaker 2:
[111:43] It had a very strong case, and it still does.

Speaker 3:
[111:45] An Impreza is just a car.

Speaker 1:
[111:46] Yeah, it doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker 3:
[111:47] Yeah, well, yeah. But that was the hot version of the Impreza. The twins are just like, we're making this.

Speaker 1:
[111:57] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[111:59] And I think that should be commended.

Speaker 1:
[112:01] That's the same thing. It's the reason why it made it onto the greatest driver's car list as well. Yeah. Well, of a certain era, because like...

Speaker 2:
[112:09] It's one of the only currently made cars that gives you that spirit.

Speaker 1:
[112:12] It's one of the only really good analog sports cars that's affordable that you can buy without having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy an analog 911.

Speaker 2:
[112:19] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[112:19] So, okay. All right. So we all feel good, though. The twins are in fourth.

Speaker 2:
[112:25] Cool with that.

Speaker 1:
[112:26] Do we repair that too?

Speaker 3:
[112:28] I got to think about where the other thing falls.

Speaker 2:
[112:30] The rest of the context.

Speaker 3:
[112:30] Yeah, the rest of the context.

Speaker 1:
[112:32] Right. So the rest of the context. So you've got the C5. You have the E46.

Speaker 3:
[112:39] I'd put the C5 in fourth.

Speaker 1:
[112:41] Oh, that's going to be a fight. I don't think the C5 is number one, but I don't think it's number four.

Speaker 2:
[112:46] It can't be four. Oh, it can't be four.

Speaker 3:
[112:50] Like, think about the appeal too, right? Like, the C5 is in consideration with us because we've driven it all, right? Like, we've experienced all that stuff and we're like, okay, you know, and we're of a certain age, we're like, all right, I guess Corvettes, right? Like, think about the headspace that you would have been in 15 years ago, you know, and even 10 years ago, you know, and thinking about that car, would you consider it? Even though you, even though you knew what it was capable of?

Speaker 1:
[113:16] Well, actually, no, 15 years ago, I would have because so even though I am wearing a heartbeat of America, you actually are like a shout out to Heat Wave for the lab. But I was not a Corvette person. I was a German car person, didn't really love Corvettes. I will say when I was a little kid, I loved the Corvette, but I loved like the Stingray, the original, but like that era. And I loved Corvettes when I was younger. My grandfather had one. It really is one of the cars that got me into.

Speaker 2:
[113:47] I almost bought a C4 when I was young.

Speaker 1:
[113:49] But as I got older, I was very much on the track to like want to buy a 911. Like that was the car for me. Corvettes kind of fell into this weird world. We all know all the memes and the jokes about Corvette guys. And then I drove the C6. And I drove the C6 multiple times side by side with 911s. And I would, as a journalist, I would get out and be annoyed that I had to say that the Corvette was a more fun drive, a better drive. Or the number one thing I used to say about it was, it was more track ready. Like I would get into a 911 that all of a sudden, pushed into a corner, felt soft, where the Corvette didn't feel soft. And I'm talking C6 because I was a generation, I was a journalist, but C5 is similar-esque in a lot of ways. We had a C5 at Hoonigan that was a yard car, super fun. And you look at it now in the world of drifting, there's a reason why it's become the new go-to car, because it doesn't need an engine swap. It doesn't really need much. It doesn't even really need to be lowered. You do it because it makes it look better.

Speaker 2:
[114:50] It's nice with a little more angle, but our yard car had nothing.

Speaker 1:
[114:53] It was a ripper.

Speaker 3:
[114:54] It took three gens of the Corvette to convince us. Three good gens. And yes, now we're looking back on the C5 and being like, oh shit, I overlooked that for that many years. So that's where I think it belongs on the list, but to go on the top, it just doesn't...

Speaker 1:
[115:16] Here's the thing I would say. I think that... We don't have to get all the way to the top, but I would say that the E46 is above the C5.

Speaker 3:
[115:22] Yes, 100%. The E46 has been cool since day one.

Speaker 1:
[115:26] It's been cool since day one, and then my listeners know this, I'm not a BMW guy.

Speaker 3:
[115:31] I'm not either.

Speaker 1:
[115:32] Just for whatever it is, I just don't associate with the brand, but I can't ever deny that they're just great driving. Ultimate driving machine, there's a reason they claim that. They're really good driving cars. There's an amazing aftermarket for it. There's so many people racing them every weekend that if you go out to the track and you have a problem, there's probably someone in the paddock who can help you get a setup straight or whatever because people have a ton of experience.

Speaker 2:
[115:53] Plus, it's nice to drive to the track in. The interior is great, a bit more usable, four doors.

Speaker 1:
[116:00] You could get the four door, yeah. So, to me, I would say that that edges out the C5. The other one is that the consumables on the C5 are a lot more expensive.

Speaker 2:
[116:11] That is true.

Speaker 1:
[116:12] Brakes, clutch jobs, everything.

Speaker 2:
[116:14] Tires are not cheap.

Speaker 1:
[116:15] Tires are not cheap. They're running a big tire.

Speaker 2:
[116:17] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[116:18] And a lot of people, if you're getting into a budget race car because you have a long experience of racing cars, then you may be able to drive the C5 to its limit. But if you're just getting into it, you're probably not going to have as much fun on the C5 as you would an SI or something else because you probably will.

Speaker 2:
[116:37] It's not as accessible.

Speaker 1:
[116:38] Well, you're not going to be able to drive it to its mechanical limit with the size tire it has and what it will have.

Speaker 2:
[116:44] I will say from everything I do know about tracking Corvettes is even when you have them set up really well and a lot of stuff in them, they still have a lot of trouble putting power down. You do have to pedal a lot versus E46, like your hammer down all the time.

Speaker 1:
[117:00] We're saying we all agree E46 is above C5. We don't know where it falls, but we at least know that right now it lives above that. Do we think in any world the twins live above either the C5 or the E46?

Speaker 3:
[117:15] Definitely not above the E46.

Speaker 2:
[117:18] Not above the C5 to me.

Speaker 1:
[117:20] So the only other car now is the Civic. So it's all about where the Civic slots in to figure out this place. So is the Civic better than the Corvette?

Speaker 3:
[117:32] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[117:32] No. This is where the fight is. No. I don't have enough experience in the Civic, per se. But I have more experience in a front-wheel drive car on track than I probably should. I've driven more of them. I mean, that was always Vinny's joke. With Scotto's really fast in production front-wheel drive cars, it's like where I excel. We drive like actual touring cars. I'm like, I don't want to push that that hard. Front-wheel drive, I will fucking drive this thing on the edge. But it's not a C5 then. But that's just from the experience side. On the argument, SI is probably an easier car to own, have more lap time out there.

Speaker 3:
[118:17] The SI is the easiest car to own on the whole list. Right. Maybe the WRX, right? Maybe the WRX.

Speaker 1:
[118:23] You're saying in terms of ownership. I'm talking about track serviceability.

Speaker 3:
[118:27] I'm talking about the whole package. Because what's that?

Speaker 1:
[118:30] I would say the TWINS and the SI are the two easiest cars on the group.

Speaker 3:
[118:33] I mean, the SI...

Speaker 1:
[118:34] The TWINS are pretty easy.

Speaker 3:
[118:36] The SI has a real backseat.

Speaker 1:
[118:38] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[118:39] I'm talking about the totality.

Speaker 1:
[118:41] You're talking the whole package. I was talking about the consumable side of it, the maintenance side of it, everything that goes into being able to go.

Speaker 3:
[118:48] They're probably pretty similar, I think, the SI. If I'm thinking about the... I'm thinking about it from the entry point. I want to get a track car, it's my car. What sacrifices am I making? What am I balancing out? And again, practical view.

Speaker 2:
[119:10] I'm going to go ahead and say, I'm going to move forward, pretending that the SI is an RSX for me.

Speaker 1:
[119:18] OK.

Speaker 2:
[119:20] There I would agree.

Speaker 3:
[119:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[119:21] So if it was the RSX.

Speaker 2:
[119:23] Because.

Speaker 3:
[119:23] Squint. Squint. Yes. Right.

Speaker 2:
[119:25] Squint.

Speaker 3:
[119:26] Squint your eyes.

Speaker 2:
[119:27] I'm putting my safety squints on.

Speaker 3:
[119:28] Yeah. Put Vaseline on the lenses.

Speaker 2:
[119:31] That's right. One of the other factors is, is that once you do start getting fast, I didn't really think about this until now, is if you do start getting fast and you're fast in a VET, OK, VET guy's fast. If you're fast in a Civic or an RSX, it's like, yo, this dude's a hero. So this guy's awesome.

Speaker 1:
[119:50] That's a great conversation because if we right now went to the track, and I haven't done a track day in a year and a half, of all these cars, I would probably jump in the Twins or the SI to go out and turn laps, just because it's been a bit.

Speaker 3:
[120:07] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[120:07] Do you know what I'm saying? Probably work back up and want to get into the C5. Probably the E46 is the car I'd be most excited to really to drive there, but I think like that group. Yeah. So there is, that does make a good argument of, you know, if you are more entry level or just mid level.

Speaker 3:
[120:28] Or just old.

Speaker 2:
[120:30] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, yeah, just looking for like kind of a more of a balanced weekend, you know, like a little bit.

Speaker 3:
[120:37] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[120:37] Like.

Speaker 3:
[120:38] Because in the C5, you will probably also smoke your set of tires in a track day or two. Whereas in the RSXSI, you're going to go home and you'll be fine. And then you just go do your next track day again.

Speaker 1:
[120:54] But you do get to tell your friends that you race Corvettes. Which is either good or bad depending on who your friends are.

Speaker 3:
[120:59] Nobody's going to care.

Speaker 2:
[121:00] I think it's good. I think it's good now, right? Like, but like, I don't know, like coming from, you know.

Speaker 1:
[121:05] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[121:06] Corvettes were them when I was tracking.

Speaker 1:
[121:08] Let's flip the other way. I don't normally love to run right to the end, but like, E46 or SI?

Speaker 3:
[121:15] E46. E46.

Speaker 1:
[121:17] So like, I think we all agree that the E46 is number one.

Speaker 2:
[121:22] The E46 is number one.

Speaker 1:
[121:23] So we now have to just fill out the middle. We've built the sandwich. We gotta fill out the middle. So, E46.

Speaker 3:
[121:30] You got like 60.

Speaker 1:
[121:31] By the way, I like broke every rule of media, which is like, I gave away the end midway. Right now, you can just watch the fall off. No one cares about the middle.

Speaker 3:
[121:38] But it was anti-climactic in a way.

Speaker 2:
[121:40] The Corvette fans are gonna care about where it falls.

Speaker 1:
[121:42] Yeah, and the Honda fans, which is actually probably a big part of the group here. All right. So we have E46 sitting there. We have, at the top, we have the, what was it, the WRXs at the bottom, right? And then we have the twins above the WRX. And then, it's a race for second place, boys. It's like competing against Sebastian Loeb. You're never gonna win.

Speaker 3:
[122:09] Oh, because it's top five, right?

Speaker 2:
[122:11] DSI is in second.

Speaker 1:
[122:12] So you think the DSI is in second. So that's clearly your vote. I, right now...

Speaker 2:
[122:19] Where the Corvette lies.

Speaker 1:
[122:20] Right now, for me, the Corvette is in second, but I am, I'm not against being convinced that the DSI is in second.

Speaker 3:
[122:28] There's one more factor, there's one more factor that I just thought of.

Speaker 1:
[122:31] If the SI looked like a Volkswagen Golf, it'd be in second place, I just...

Speaker 3:
[122:34] The RSX SI., on track, the community of people you're gonna be hanging out with, I would way rather be hanging out, still...

Speaker 1:
[122:44] That is true.

Speaker 3:
[122:44] With the Honda kids.

Speaker 1:
[122:45] Because while the drift community in Corvettes has become cool, I don't know if... I don't think that the track community has caught up the same way.

Speaker 3:
[122:53] Because you show up and in the garage, the other Corvette guys are going to be dudes that take it super serious. And we're like, I'm faster than everybody. I got the most expensive tires. I got this kit. I got the supercharger, blah, blah, blah. Damn, yours is stock. Whereas you show up in a Honda and you're on cool wheels, nothing else matters. Like, damn, that shit stands out, good color.

Speaker 2:
[123:15] It's a different tribe, right? So that's why I think that the C5 goes further on the list, because Corvettes have been in track days for forever, but that's a different track day.

Speaker 1:
[123:27] I was just going to say that I think the Corvettes' biggest problem here is that it's the giant amongst Davids.

Speaker 2:
[123:32] Big time.

Speaker 1:
[123:34] Because it's not expensive, because you should be having the conversation of, do you want a 911 or a C6? But because Corvettes didn't keep their resale value, there's so many of them, that you're not comparing them to like cars. So like it is the beast amongst all of these cars, which is like, the only reason it's in this group is because it's affordable. And I think at the end of the day, if we would have said entry-level budget car, we wouldn't have included in the group, because it's like just outside of entry-level.

Speaker 3:
[124:06] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[124:07] That's actually, I think, a lot more than just outside.

Speaker 3:
[124:09] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[124:09] I mean, I've been thinking about this as like first time, like I'm getting a track car. I don't have one. I'm not getting another one. I'm not doing a budget one because I'm selling this other one.

Speaker 3:
[124:20] You used to be in it, but now it's a little expendable.

Speaker 2:
[124:22] Start to get a track car to start.

Speaker 3:
[124:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[124:25] Let me run the contrary. Let me run the contrary to that, though, real quick. There is something to be said about the lifespan the Corvette could have for you, meaning you can really grow in Paris.

Speaker 3:
[124:38] You could keep it forever.

Speaker 1:
[124:39] You could drive that car for 15 years and keep getting more and more into it, and do more and more to it. When you could literally drive it to the point that you win time attack. It is a car, it is a chassis that you could build to the highest.

Speaker 3:
[124:52] It is very complete in that way.

Speaker 1:
[124:53] Twin turbo, LS7 swap and that thing.

Speaker 3:
[124:56] Full arrow package.

Speaker 1:
[124:56] You do a full plywood arrow package to that bad boy, and then it's a killer.

Speaker 3:
[125:03] But then, at the end of the day, you're still hanging out with the Corvette guys.

Speaker 2:
[125:08] It is rear wheel drive. Which, yeah. Where are the twins chilling right now?

Speaker 1:
[125:15] Twins are in fourth. Right now, it's E46 rear wheel drive at the top. Potentially, Civic SI front wheel drive in second. And then third place, C5 Vette. Fourth place, the twins, rear wheel drive. And then last place, all wheel drive.

Speaker 2:
[125:32] Here's a weird thing for me, right? So, like, I think that if the Civic goes second, then the Corvette can go next and the twins can go after. But if the Corvette goes above the Civic, then, like, I think the twins could, like, interchange with that too, right? Because if I think about E46...

Speaker 1:
[125:52] You think the twins could interchange with what?

Speaker 2:
[125:53] I think that...

Speaker 3:
[125:54] The C5?

Speaker 2:
[125:55] Yeah. Like, I think it could be E46.

Speaker 3:
[125:57] I cannot stand for that. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[126:00] I get your argument, but, again, we go back to this, the bang for the buck, like, man, C5 on track is a good time. And we're not saying...

Speaker 3:
[126:10] And it's a great daily.

Speaker 1:
[126:11] Well, we're not... These obviously aren't, you know, people who have a ton of track day experience, but there's also... We're not saying this is completely entry level either, because I think if it was, we would steer everybody probably into a front-wheel-drive car to get up and get going, right? So this is like a cost...

Speaker 2:
[126:26] Then it's just fit, fit, fit, fit.

Speaker 3:
[126:31] Yeah, fit cup. So I think we got our answer.

Speaker 2:
[126:36] What was the answer?

Speaker 3:
[126:37] E46, SI, C5.

Speaker 2:
[126:40] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[126:41] Twins.

Speaker 2:
[126:41] I'll accept that.

Speaker 1:
[126:43] Of course you will, you fought that. Well, you still think the SI should be number one.

Speaker 2:
[126:47] I think there's interchangeability in the order of the list, right? So you've got some choices based off of your preference.

Speaker 3:
[126:53] Depends on person and region.

Speaker 2:
[126:54] So you're like, I can get a real wheel drive, German.

Speaker 1:
[126:57] Did I mention to you this is entirely subjective by three edits? You're one of them.

Speaker 2:
[127:01] Yeah. Yes. Thank you. But I'm thinking for the people.

Speaker 1:
[127:06] He's reading the comments right now, like, oh, I can't believe this dude.

Speaker 2:
[127:09] But yeah, but that's been my position for the last 10 years, is to think about-

Speaker 3:
[127:14] I get to step away from this and go on the gravel. You have to go meet your people.

Speaker 1:
[127:17] So the last interchangeability that we'll bring up is, is there any world where the twins is above the C5 vet? Do you think?

Speaker 2:
[127:25] No, not if the civic is second.

Speaker 1:
[127:28] I don't know what that is. It's like, he won one.

Speaker 3:
[127:31] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[127:31] He won one.

Speaker 2:
[127:32] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[127:32] He's playing a leverage game.

Speaker 2:
[127:33] No, it's just kind of like order of choice. I'm looking at it kind of in pairs and then an outlier. Because if we look at that, it's like you have two great choices at one and two. Then you've got two great choices in three and four, and then you have the WRX. Damn. Wow.

Speaker 3:
[127:54] I will not take any more of this slander.

Speaker 1:
[127:58] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[127:58] I'm not saying it's not a good choice, but it's number five.

Speaker 3:
[128:00] You give a man an inch, you give a man an SI in second place, which is actually an RSX, and he takes them on.

Speaker 1:
[128:06] Let's just cut to some beautiful time attacks done in GD.

Speaker 3:
[128:11] Yes, thank you. GD's right here.

Speaker 1:
[128:13] Just cut to that and let him remember how good that was in 2005.

Speaker 3:
[128:17] The June Hyper Lemon.

Speaker 1:
[128:18] June Hyper Lemon is exactly what I was gonna cut to.

Speaker 2:
[128:20] It's on the list. The fit is not.

Speaker 1:
[128:23] Yeah. Yeah. You know what no one has on their wall? Is a photo of a fit.

Speaker 2:
[128:28] That post here. That's a fact.

Speaker 1:
[128:30] On their wall.

Speaker 3:
[128:31] Maybe Scotty Bens.

Speaker 2:
[128:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. True, true.

Speaker 1:
[128:34] Bens got one.

Speaker 2:
[128:35] Only as a joke.

Speaker 1:
[128:37] So we're locking it in?

Speaker 3:
[128:38] I'm good with it.

Speaker 1:
[128:39] Here it is. I'll read it off from the bottom. In fifth place, we have the Subaru WRX GD. In fourth place, we have the Twins, AKA the BRZ FRS Combo. In third place, we have the Heartbeat of America, the Corvette C5. Second place, the 8th Gen, Civic SI. And in first place, the BMW E46 330i. That's it. That is the list. It's strong. Everyone's somewhat happy with it. I know you prefer it just to be all Hondas.

Speaker 2:
[129:16] No, I feel good. I mean, the fit, I think the fit stayed on the list in the same way that it stays on the track in the same way that it rose to that.

Speaker 1:
[129:27] Everybody wants it there, but at the end of the day...

Speaker 2:
[129:29] But it's not supposed to be there.

Speaker 3:
[129:30] It's never gonna finish first.

Speaker 2:
[129:32] Everybody wants it there, but it's not supposed to be there. And it's cool because it's not supposed to be there. But this is a good squad.

Speaker 1:
[129:39] Bunch of great honorable mentions. If we missed anything, drop it in the comments. We know you have opinions. Throw your list in. If you wanna get involved in the list earlier and maybe have a little bit more sway, join the Patreon. We have a way bigger fight and argument about that. And also, if you wanna listen to our Goblin List, which is just real degenerate chat car options.

Speaker 3:
[130:01] Where this was like one in the morning and I'm just being evil.

Speaker 1:
[130:04] You don't recommend this to anybody, but it's the things we would be looking at.

Speaker 3:
[130:08] But I would. This is the would list.

Speaker 1:
[130:11] So, and I said it again, I'll say it 10 times more. Chris, not only thank you for coming, but thanks for everything that you've done with Gridlife. It is a huge, amazing part of the community. You guys put on an awesome event. And maybe one day I'll have enough time to actually race a car in it one day.

Speaker 2:
[130:26] I'd love that.

Speaker 3:
[130:27] I would love to race in GLTC too. Thank you. Huge for the culture.

Speaker 1:
[130:31] I got a pitch in idea too. It involves old Volkswagens, but we'll get to that.

Speaker 3:
[130:34] Here we go.

Speaker 2:
[130:35] As it should.

Speaker 1:
[130:36] Anyway, thank you very much. Big thanks to all the partners and later. Of all the sunglass companies out there, you might ask, why Heat Wave? Aside from them being friends of mine, they just make great shades. Awesome styles, cool collabs, smart tech. They even have extra large sizes for big heads like me. And for those of you wearing this on the job, they make ANSI Z87 Spec Safety Glasses too. But what really attracts me to Heat Wave is that they are physically a part of our culture. You will find them everywhere, from King of the Hammers to Formula Drift. You'll see everyone wearing Heat Waves at your local Track Day event. Damn, you might even turn laps with the co-founder Justin, because they're one of us. So, one more reason to choose Heat Wave Visual to fix your face. I'm a tool dork. My obsession might even dwarf my addiction to cars. I love collecting unique and specialty tools, which is how I initially fell in love with Wera. First off, they just make aesthetically pleasing tools. They feel good in your hand, they have a great finish, their sizes are universally color-coded, and they are super strong. In two decades, I've never broken a tool from Wera. I wish I could say the same about my other tools. But the thing I like the most about Wera is that they create clever solutions for your wrenching woes because you need over-engineered tools to work on today's over-engineered cars. So if you're ready to step up your tool game, whether it's the Zyklop Ratchet or the Joker Wrenches, find them at weratools.com. All anyone wants to talk about nowadays is how great 90s car culture was. But what everyone forgets is how bad our slammed cars rode on crappy lowering springs. At the time, that's all my wallet could muster. But when I finally did step up and get some proper coilovers, I went for KWs and never looked back. I've been running their stuff for over two decades now. In everything from my 911 to my RS2, I even have a custom set in my Land Rover Discovery. And yes, that bloody thing does finally run. Anyway, because of my long history with them, I am very excited to announce KW as the newest partner in this whole podcast syndicate thing I'm building. Anyway, check them out, kwsuspensions.com.