transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:04] You are listening to an Art Media Podcast.

Speaker 2:
[00:10] We've been hearing more and more voices who have entered eulogy mode. They look at Israel and say, well, it was once a beautiful dream, maybe even once a beautiful reality. But Israel has been in a moral decline for many years, and we no longer see any hope for the Jewish state.

Speaker 3:
[00:32] Eulogy, it's the end. Birthdays are about a future. Even on birthdays, we give an accounting about how wonderful the person was. But then we could talk to them about what more you could be, everything else that you could yet fulfill. And when we bless you for the next year, we're so full of hope.

Speaker 2:
[00:52] Don't give up on the pleasant. The birthday of Israel is an opportunity to renew our commitment to the Israel that we want, the Israel that we love.

Speaker 3:
[01:14] Hi, friends, this is Donniel Hartman and Yossi Klein Halevi from the Shalom Hartman Institute. And this is our podcast, For Heaven's Sake, in collaboration with Ark Media. Today's April 21st, Tuesday, Israel's Memorial Day. Tomorrow is Israel's Independence Day. And for today's theme, Yossi and I, we've picked, what are our blessings for Israel on its 78th birthday? You know, Yossi, there are different times when we do an accounting for a life. Two of the most prominent are eulogies and birthdays. And there's a very big difference between the way we account for one and the way we account in the other. With death and eulogies, as we experience very profoundly today in Memorial Day, when you speak about what somebody has achieved, and all they have meant for you, there is no more blessing that you could wish them. The only blessing that you could offer someone who died is to commit yourself to be their blessing. And as our tradition says, may your memory be a blessing. We're going to be your blessing. You don't have a future. You don't have one. We're going to be it. And it's always very hard because you don't want to justify the death or explain it and say, yes, the blessing ennobles it. But a eulogy, it's the end. Birthdays are about a future. Even on birthdays, we give an accounting about how wonderful the person was. But then we could talk to them about what more you could be, everything else that you could yet fulfill. And when we bless you for the next year, we're so full of hope. And so Yossi, even as we transition from Memorial Day to Independence Day, and it's a hard transition, but the biggest transition is not a transition from mourning to celebration. It's from a day in which we're just static. We're looking at the price we paid to a transition to talking about the future. And you and I, as lovers of Israel, we want to talk about that future. So Yossi, start our conversation. What's the blessing?

Speaker 2:
[03:42] So, you know, I really appreciate the distinction you're making between eulogy and birthday blessing. It's a beautiful distinction. And listening to you, it occurs to me that that's a useful way of understanding a growing division within the Jewish people around Israel. And we've been hearing, especially in recent months, more and more voices from prominent Jews, mostly in the American Jewish community, who have entered eulogy mode. They look at Israel and say, well, it was once a beautiful dream, maybe even once a beautiful reality. But Israel has been in a moral decline for many years. It's been in a downward moral trajectory. And we no longer see any hope for the Jewish state. There are those who are calling for its dismantling. There are those who are simply walking away in despair. Then there are others, fortunately, the strong majority of the Jewish people, who are in blessing mode or in birthday mode. And for us, Israel's birthday is an opportunity to both praise Israel's accomplishments and to bless Israel with our aspirations for what we hope Israel can still become. We're not ready to eulogize this story. You know, Donniel, we're very strange people. We've waited 2,000 years very patiently. Not always. You know, there were these outbreaks of messianic expectations, Shabbat d'Aixvi, and throughout the diaspora, throughout the last 2,000 years, there were these eruptions of anticipation. But for the most part, we learned to draw a distinction between patience and hope. We learned to make that distinction. And the reality sets in, and as in any fulfillment of a dream, there are disappointments, big disappointments. But now after 78 years, you're ready to call it quits, we're just getting going. And certainly in the grand sweep of Jewish history, 78 years is, you know, as we say in Hebrew, the hair of Ayim, it's a blink. Where is this impatience coming from? And so, you know, Donniel, the first blessing that I would offer is to the Jewish people, not just the state, to the diaspora, to those who feel that the only proper response, the only moral response, is a eulogy. My response to that is don't give up on the pleasant. The birthday of Israel is an opportunity to renew our commitment to the Israel that we want, the Israel that we love. This story is so Dangan, it's so fluid. And a birthday is an opportunity to remember that we are in the mode of life and not drop them in the mode of eulogy.

Speaker 3:
[07:05] You know, as I was listening to, I was reflecting more on the differences between eulogies and birthdays, and it is a strange comparison. It's an interesting comparison, but it is, I don't know. Maybe it's so prominent for me because I'm going from Memorial Day to Independence Day, so the two, I'm thinking about it. But one of the other differences is that when you're eulogizing somebody, usually, you idealize them. You speak about all the great things that they've done. You over-idealize. Sometimes in Israel, Memorial Day is a very depressing day because you go through these tens and hundreds of stories, and every story is about the most perfect human being who's ever walked the face of the earth. You forget all the problems. You forget everything. And all you remember is the perfect part. It's like you're choosing. But again, maybe that's because there is no future. The only place that the person now lives is in your memory and you're shaping it. With the birthday, there's a tomorrow that's going to come.

Speaker 2:
[08:06] And there's also built-in imperfection.

Speaker 3:
[08:08] That's correct. And we expect it. And so we don't have to idealize. My sister Tova always has this line that over-idealization is the greatest sign of alienation. So with death, of course, there's alienation. It's built into the system. It's just there. But with a birthday, we don't have to over-idealize. And as you said, the story is just beginning. So without over-idealization and inherent to any notion of blessing, is this idea that there's more that could yet come. So Yossi, let's begin that journey together.

Speaker 2:
[08:49] So you and I have spoken over the last few years about how Israeli society is poised between two stark options. One is October 6th and the other is October 8th. October 6th, the year leading up to October 7th, was now the most divisive in Israel's history. We were getting to the point where we were no longer sure, many of us were no longer sure, that we still shared the same narrative, that we were part of the same story. That for me was the most devastating experience that I've ever had as an Israeli. Then literally overnight, from October 6th to October 8th, Israeli society pivots to one of the most cohesive moments in our history. We've never done that. My blessing for Israel is that we hold on to that extraordinary achievement of October 8th where we reminded ourselves that we're still capable of the instincts of peoplehood, that we still know how to come together, but that we won't only rediscover that capability in moments of crisis, but that that becomes the norm. Now, of course, you can't maintain that level of national solidarity, but it's also not healthy. A healthy democracy doesn't strive for unanimity. It tries to navigate its disagreements, even deep disagreements, within a framework of healthy discussion, healthy debate. And so if we could find something of that spirit of October 8th, where we just remind ourselves that we're part of the same story. So that's one piece of it. But the blessing is about to get a little more complicated, because in Israel's fractured reality, there is no absolute unity. And I actually don't aspire for absolute unity. We have very deep and serious disagreements that we need to resolve. We have ongoing violence, for example, on the hilltops in Judea and Samaria, that the government is in contain. We have a long list of profound problems. And so my blessing for Israel is that we strengthen the Zionist democratic mainstream, which always defined Israeli society from center left to center right. It was always a mainstream committed to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, and committed to trying to work out the complicated elements of that identity. It's a very messy idea. But there is no Israeli society without that mainstream. And so my blessing for Israel, if I put all of these pieces together, is that we remember our commonality. We proceed to reconstruct this fractured mainstream and bring together the democratic right at the Jewish center and left into a Jewish and democratic mainstream. And that mainstream will be capable of containing the extremes who are poor in our society apart. That's my blessing.

Speaker 3:
[12:37] It's a beautiful blessing, but I want to ask you about that. I want to challenge you, you, Yossi, particularly, because as you were talking about the unity and the notion that we're all part of the same story and your recognition that the extremes are now defining us and want to pull us back to some mainstream around which we could be unified, it's an exercise in boundaries and not allowing our society to be defined by its fringes. But you, Yossi, if I just mentioned the word Netanyahu, it's like you go. So how does that fit in for you? As I'm listening to you, maybe I'm understanding you differently. Is Netanyahu for you the way he is now, even though he's prime minister, really a fringe?

Speaker 2:
[13:25] Netanyahu is in his own category, and Netanyahu has nothing to do with our ideological differences. Now, he's riding those differences for his own political needs. But for me, the problem of Netanyahu, and I actually, if I honestly, Daniel, if I think about what my greatest blessing for Israel is in the coming year, it's that we will be freed of Netanyahu as prime minister. He should live and be well, let him retire, let him thrive in private life. I mean that. I wish him well. He has great achievements. To his credit, we owe him, to some extent, much of the victory of the last two years. But what he's done to Israeli society, encouraging our divisions, feeding off of our schisms, this for me is what's more painful than anything else.

Speaker 3:
[14:20] Right. So like when I'm listening to your unity, because for the last three years, there's an aspiration for unity, but there is, I don't want to use the term, but I'll use it and tell me if it's not right. There was an enemy within for you. It started in judicial reform.

Speaker 2:
[14:38] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[14:38] It started with that letter that you wrote, we need to unite against Bibi.

Speaker 2:
[14:43] Jewish people.

Speaker 3:
[14:44] The Jewish people have to unite against Bibi. Now you're speaking about a unification around the core Zionist democratic aspirations.

Speaker 2:
[14:54] I believe that Netanyahu is the great obstacle to reconstituting the mainstream.

Speaker 3:
[15:02] He's both prime minister and fringe.

Speaker 2:
[15:04] I don't like the term.

Speaker 3:
[15:06] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[15:07] I don't like the language enemy within, and I've been very careful even not to apply that to Netanyahu. Certainly, I certainly never felt that toward his voters. I understand his voters.

Speaker 3:
[15:21] Right.

Speaker 2:
[15:21] I understand those who say he's a world-class statesman, Ochenveh with the world-class statesmen, and where he's brought us to our relationship with the world.

Speaker 3:
[15:33] Translate for our listeners, what is Ochenveh?

Speaker 2:
[15:36] Ochenveh is one of those Yiddish expressions that can't be translated. It's just like- Let's just say it's not flattering. But in order for Israelis like me to reunite with Netanyahu voters, Netanyahu has to be removed as Prime Minister.

Speaker 3:
[15:56] That's the point.

Speaker 2:
[15:57] Because his deepest political interest, as he perceives it, is schism. We've never had a Prime Minister like that before, and that's what's so painful. So if we're going to be honest, if we're going to push this, I'll go with it.

Speaker 3:
[16:11] Because as I was listening to you, I was so moved by the channeling of Donniel and you that we need to be unified again.

Speaker 2:
[16:18] No, but Donniel, that has been my aspiration for Israel. Since 1983, I moved to Israel in 1982, and what happened to me in 1983, I don't remember if I've talked about this with you, but indulge me for a moment, please. 1983, I was working as a journalist, and I hear on the radio that grenade has been thrown into a Peace Now demonstration. This was at the Prime Minister's office, and one of the demonstrators was killed, a number were wounded. I happened to be 10 minutes away from the Prime Minister's office, so I ran over, and the demonstration was dispersing. There was blood, literal blood on the ground, and syringes from medics. There was a scene of death, and there were a group of right-wing counter-demonstrators who were still there and still chanting their slogans. I went over to them, and I said, a Jew was just murdered here. We talk about how Jewish blood is in chief. Well, here's Jewish blood right in front of them. Look down, here's some Jewish blood, and they laughed. Wow. And that was the moment when I actually shifted from being right-wing to becoming a centurion. The moment that Ebeel Grunzweig, that was the name of the demonstrator who was killed, a paratrooper, and I later learned that he was a distant cousin, cousin of her cousin. Wow. That's Israel. And so my commitment since that moment has been the cohesiveness of Israel and what was so unbearable for me, what is so unbearable about Netanyahu in his latest iteration, not the Netanyahu in the past, who and I voted for him on occasion in the past. It's this version of Netanyahu who nurtures our schism, who turns Israeli against Israeli. That's what's unbearable.

Speaker 3:
[18:37] Right. And so your centrism, as you're speaking about now, is not even an ideological middle between the left wing and the right wing. It's a centrism which is yearning for a finding of a commonality between the extremes of Israel so that we could walk together in a new way.

Speaker 2:
[18:56] When you talk about your aspirations, first of all, and I want to hear what they are for this year. For me, my deepest aspiration for Israel is framed by that moment by Emile Gunzweig's murder. And that for me, it's the constant warning of how the society can, God forbid, unravel. And we saw it playing out in the year leading up to October 7th. And so that's my blessing for Israel, is that we choose life. We choose minimal cohesiveness. We choose October 8th over October 6th.

Speaker 3:
[19:35] Thank you for that. You know, it's interesting when I think about my aspirations, my blessings for Israel, maybe all Israelis, the most significant date for us now is not 1948, and it's not 1967, it's not 1973. It's October 7th. As we look at our lives, everything is channeled through October 7th. And for you, it's the way October 7th shifted us from the divisiveness of October 6th to the unity of October 8th. My blessing is also connected to October 7th, but a different way. I sense very much in Israel that's still stuck in the defeat of October 7th. We just, we can't let that defeat go. We're shaped by the fact that this enemy, this terrorist organization, was able to penetrate into our country and murder, murder people. And our army was gone. Here it is, one of the most powerful armies in the world, which could fly unhindered into Tehran, which could do our intelligence forces, our soldiers, heroes. October 7th, they were gone. Nobody understood. They were completely gone. And to this very day, we don't fully understand how it happened. And I think it just sits on people. It's this perpetual nightmare, which even though October 8th has happened, Yossi, and even though since October 7th, our achievements, at least militarily, have been very profound. They haven't been a total victory for ever and ever and ever. But we're not on October 7th anymore. We've spoken about that. We're so far from it. But the problem is, is we have an October 7th consciousness. We are a superpower with an October 7th consciousness. And that, by the way, is devastating. Because if you feel that you are this exposed victim, it shapes everything about you, shapes everything. You're being victimized over and over and over again. Victimization is a perpetual experience. And as a result, victims don't think about tomorrow. Victims don't think about the other side. Victims don't think about the different options they have. When you're in the midst of an onslaught, all you could think about is fighting back. And in many ways, since October 7, we've been in a perpetual war, which has achieved many things, but has also not achieved many things. Because war has a limited ability to achieve the type of blessings that we as a society want. And so if I would articulate, and I want to articulate it carefully, if I would articulate what my blessing for Israel is to realize that we won. Not a total victory, and I know it's dangerous. Because to say that you won is also to be complacent. That's part of the complacency of October 6. Not only the divisiveness of October 6, but a complacency that we don't have to fight because we're so powerful and they're so weak. So, it's not a complacency, but we have to begin to realize how powerful and successful we are. And that October 7th stops defining everything about us, stops determining the way we look at the world. Because when that's the way we look at the world, Yossi, we don't have it tomorrow. So, my bracha for Israel is, we won. Celebrate, here it is. Don't just celebrate the fact that we're still alive. Don't just celebrate that there is a year full of hope. For there to be hope, Yossi, we have to start containing October 7th. We have to contain it. It has to be there as a nightmare, but we have to stop living in that nightmare. We have to move to October 8th.

Speaker 2:
[23:56] It's a wonderful encyclopedia, and I actually want to link it with what I said, because what we're really talking about are two extraordinary victories that Israeli society managed on October 8th.

Speaker 3:
[24:12] Right.

Speaker 2:
[24:12] The first victory that I spoke about was overcoming October 6th. You're talking about the victory of overcoming October 7th.

Speaker 3:
[24:20] October 7th, that's right.

Speaker 2:
[24:22] And Israeli society proved that we have the ability to come together, and we have the ability to, if not win in the absolute term, that Netanyahu in his bombastic way keeps promising us. But nevertheless, we had extraordinary victories. We proved that we're not victims. We were victims for all of one day. And we woke up the next morning, and this was true for Jewish-Israeli society, and emphasizing Jewish-Israeli society, because Arab-Israeli society work differently. But Jewish-Israeli society, virtually unanimously, said we have no choice now, but to undo the disastrous perception of Jewish victim. And so what you're saying is, own the victory. And I'm saying the same thing about the unity that we showed. So the blessing that you and I are offering Israel is own October 8th.

Speaker 3:
[25:23] You know, there's an interesting feature about the tragedy of October 7th, in which October 8th didn't feel like a victory because there were still hostages. The reality of the hostages in Gaza didn't let us get out of October 7th. The tragedies of the hostages were so profound. The tragedies to the families, the tragedies to those who didn't make it back, the tragedies to those who made it back, and the burdens that they're carrying, and the lives that they're trying to put together again. But the burden for Israeli society is that it didn't let us feel October 8th. We were still on October 7th. Right. And we had two years that way. Even though they're back, it didn't come to an end. You know, as I said beforehand, when you are still in October 7th, and you're fighting Iran from a perspective of October 7th, and you're fighting Hezbollah, if you look at the way the war in Lebanon is being presented in Israel, it's an October 7th war. It's an October 7th war. We're still there. If you look at what's happening in Judea and Samaria, this is a potential, everything is another potential October 7th. Our whole world has shrunk, seeing our lives through this day, and it is limiting our ability to pursue other options. Iran is October 7th. So you spoke so beautifully about, we don't want to eulogize Israel, but in many ways, October 7th is a eulogy.

Speaker 2:
[26:59] It's a great insight.

Speaker 3:
[26:59] We're just eulogizing and we're trying to get over it, but we're not living, so what are we doing? We're fighting all the time.

Speaker 2:
[27:06] Agreed, agreed, but one of the main reasons, I think, that we can't get over October 7th, is because we still don't know what actually happened, and how it happened, and how things went wrong, and there's a very simple reason for why we don't know. Because to take this back to Lutaniol, he will not establish a commission of inquiry. Golda Meir, after the Yom Kippur War, within weeks established a commission of inquiry into herself, into her own government. We are now two and a half years after October 7th. The bereaved families are still demonstrating, demanding a commission of inquiry. There was just a demonstration the other day of bereaved families. And so in order for there to be closure, in order for us to overcome the victimhood of October 7th, we need to understand it. And maybe, so let's turn it into a blessing and not a criticism. The blessing, I know where you're going. I know where you're going, Donniel. I want to preempt you.

Speaker 3:
[28:10] No, you won't, you won't. I'm not going, I'm gonna surprise you.

Speaker 2:
[28:13] Let's go for blessing.

Speaker 3:
[28:14] I'm gonna surprise you, you see? Because secretly, I think we all know why October 7th happened. Everybody knows. And we're gonna have a commission and we're gonna wait for three more years. So we'll continue to be October 7th Jews for three more years. Look what it's doing to us. We can't see the rights of anybody. We could bomb. When you're in October 7th, there's no limits to the power that you're allowed to use. You have no sympathy or empathy. It's just, look at it, Yossi. And listen, allow me to be different than you, Yossi. I let you be different than me. Let me say it. I'm telling you, I'm tired of it. I'm tired of the boorishness of Israeli society on this. There's a boorishness. And the truth is, we do know. We do know because I can't use this word. It's just, there was just a 100% total F up, which is inherent to the human condition. Everything shut down for one day. So what we don't know is how much we could blame Netanyahu. The army has already got, we already know. It's did its inquiry. So when are we going to wait some more? Of course I want that blessing of an inquiry. But the bigger thing, being stuck in October 7th and waiting till we could finally declare how much Netanyahu knew and how much money he took to buy off Hamas and all of the rest, we are in a prison of our own making. Yossi, I want to be personal just for a second because I might have said this on this podcast. The greatest blessing that my mother gave to me in my life is she never enabled me to feel stuck in my ADHD-ness as a child. When you're stuck as an ADHD child, most of my schooling till I moved to Israel in middle of grade eight was in the hallways. Within two to three minutes, I was outside of class and I was a walker of the hallways. Me too. That's where I spent my life. I didn't know what a 45-minute period was. Ask me, how long was a class in a little bit? I have no idea. I truly asked me to this day, how long was a period? It was in an hour, 50 minutes. I have truly no idea. It was two to three minutes by the time of which I got kicked out. That's it. When you're stuck there, part of the curse of failing, of not just not being able to make it, but the bad marks and everything, is that you're a failure and that's the way you go through life. If you feel a failure as a child, you don't know how to move beyond it. My mother always said, Donniel, you're not a failure. The people who are failing are your teachers. They're the failure. You're great. Donniel, you're fantastic. You're just as good as it could be. I personally benefited from the decision of my mother to not let the failure define me. And October 7th is still defining us.

Speaker 2:
[31:17] I'm with you.

Speaker 3:
[31:18] And we can't get beyond it. That's it. And that's my blessing. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[31:22] Okay. Okay. I'm with you on that. My deep disagreement is the critique of, for example, the Lebanon War. We have objective security urgencies, and we're doing our best to try to break the October 6th reality, which has not been undone, which is having terror enclave sitting on our border. It's untenable.

Speaker 3:
[31:52] Fair enough.

Speaker 2:
[31:53] And so I'm urging-

Speaker 3:
[31:55] So let me refine it. In light of your critique, let me refine it. When you're stuck in October 7th, you have only one tool in your kit. It's a tool that you have to use, and I appreciate your criticism of me. I can accept it. Okay. It's not for naught. It's not that we're making up enemies. We're making up dangers. But that makes it even harder, Yossi. But because the enemies are also real, we're still looking for military might, one more fight, one more war, to solve our problems all the time. That's in October 7th. So I accept your correction of me. The enemy is real, and there is an aspiration. But when you're in October 7th, you're stuck somewhere, and you also deep down don't even believe anymore, Yossi. If it wasn't for my mother, I couldn't believe that I could achieve anything. I don't think we believe that we could achieve anything. Lebanon announces that it wants to start a peace negotiation. Do you know what every single Israeli news site spoke about? It's not going to work. Before it even started, it's not going to work. You don't believe anything. Right. We're all now, Israeli society is just waiting for President Trump to disappoint us. It was like, because any end to Iran, if we're still in October 7th, there's nothing else. All we know how to do. So like, I love this country so much. I want us to get back to life. I want us to get back to it. I know we're gonna have to fight, but let's celebrate our victories and the potential that we have. Yossi, last thoughts and comments.

Speaker 2:
[33:35] I was beautiful, Donniel, and I've so much enjoyed this conversation. We went through the mud, we went through all the difficulties that are there, and still we're in this place of gratitude and joy. I think that that's really the heart of what we're trying to say, the heart of what the blessing is.

Speaker 3:
[33:55] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[33:55] You mentioned Iran and I want to take this in a different direction, and for me, end with that. That is that my blessing for Israel is the same blessing that I have for the people of Iran, which is that in this coming year, they will celebrate their Independence Day. This is the interdependence between the Israeli and the Iranian people that we've discovered or rediscovered. Interesting.

Speaker 3:
[34:25] Really interesting.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] And so when they celebrate their genuine independence, our independence will take on a whole new dimension.

Speaker 3:
[34:35] That's a really, you know, I've never thought about it. A new interconnection between Israel and Iran, the people, to achieve our blessings is an interesting. It's beautiful. I want to end there, but I can't. I just have to add that precisely because we're coming to Independence Day after Memorial Day, let's bless Israel with a year of peace. Yes. Let's bless Israel with a year in which the broken could heal, and that I can't bless Israel with no more debt. We have enemies, but that word will be minimal. And let's bless it that we could again hope, we could again hope. Let's get back to living our blessings. Yossi, it's such an honor and a privilege to be with you.

Speaker 2:
[35:19] Totally mutual.

Speaker 3:
[35:20] Happy birthday, Israel.

Speaker 2:
[35:21] Yes. Happy birthday.

Speaker 3:
[35:23] Be well, my friend.

Speaker 1:
[35:25] What if prayer doesn't work? This question strikes us as a distinctly modern one, an outgrowth of the slow disenchantment of the world. But in truth, the question is an old one, and one given space to breathe here.

Speaker 4:
[35:40] From the Shalom Hartman Institute, Thoughts and Prayers is a new podcast that explores what Jewish prayer means and why it still matters. Join host, Rabbi Jessica Fisher, as she weaves together stories, classic texts, and conversations with leading rabbis and thinkers, like Yossi Klein Halevi.

Speaker 2:
[35:56] Judaism is about the democratization of the spiritual, of revelation.

Speaker 4:
[36:00] Rabbi Lauren Holtzblatt.

Speaker 5:
[36:02] I was representing the Second Gentleman Emhoff as his rabbi on that stage. What you had in that moment was the pluralism of America.

Speaker 4:
[36:09] And Rabbi Josh Warshawski.

Speaker 3:
[36:11] Prayer helps me be the best version of myself.

Speaker 4:
[36:14] It helps me figure out what do I need in my spiritual backpack. Thoughts and prayers, inspiring new connections to Jewish prayer in a changing world. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 6:
[36:25] Here are some other things that are happening at the Shalom Hartman Institute. Last week in Washington DC, Yehuda Kurtzer spoke with Jeffrey Goldberg, editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, on public discourse, peoplehood, citizenship, and conscience, and explored how American Jews can navigate this moment with clarity and responsibility. Thank you to those who attended in person. You'll be able to hear this conversation next week on the Identity Crisis Podcast, hosted by Shalom Hartman Institute president Yehuda Kurtzer, and creating better conversations about the issues that matter. We're getting ready for Season 2 of Future Tense, another podcast from the Shalom Hartman Institute that launched last summer. The college student hosts came to New York to record in our studio. This podcast puts the biggest Jewish questions of today into the hands of the leaders of tomorrow. We can't wait for the new season to drop in fall 2026. This week and next week, the Hartman Institute is coming to a city near you in the US and Canada. Join Yossi Klein Halevi in Vancouver, Detroit and Palo Alto and join Yehuda Kurtzer in Toronto for wide-ranging and timely learning on the big ideas and questions of this moment in Jewish life. Visit shalomhartman.org/events to learn more and register.

Speaker 7:
[37:35] For Heaven's Sake is a product of the Shalom Hartman Institute and Ark Media. It is produced by me, Daniel Goodman, with help from Miriam Jacobs, Adar Taylor Schecter, and Aviva Kat Menor, and studio support from Go Live Media. Our episode was edited by Seth Stein. Maytal Friedman is our executive producer, and our music was composed by Yuval Samo. Past episodes can be found at arkmedia.org where you can explore more of Ark Media's podcasts. You can watch the video versions of our episodes on our YouTube channel. Follow the YouTube link in the show notes. Also, to receive updates on new episodes, please follow the link to arkmedia.org and subscribe to Ark Media's weekly newsletter. For more ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute, visit our website at shalomhartman.org.