transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Because sometimes culture gets a bad rep because it's like, oh, it's the, you know, perks and fun stuff and, you know, and it's actually not, like those things can be helpful, but they're not actually core to creating the environment. Core to creating the environment is I have a deep sense of purpose of why we're here, what we're doing, we're on a mission together, and I know how I need to show up to make that possible.

Speaker 2:
[00:31] Hey, friends, I'm Whitney Putnam, and welcome to The Global Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Today, we're talking about something every leader experiences, but not every leader knows how to name or shape. Today, we're talking about culture. Whether we realize it or not, we are always shaping culture. It's simply the environment you create and what that environment produces over time. And let's be honest, sometimes you can feel when something's off in a culture before you can actually explain it. You walk into a meeting and think, hmm, something's not quite right here, but you can't put your finger on it. And here's why this matters. If you listen to this episode, you're going to start naming what a healthy culture looks like. And not only that, you'll walk away with tools to begin creating it. So if something feels off in your organization right now, or you've had that sense of something's not quite right, but you can't put words to it, this conversation is for you. Honestly, your organization can get better because of what you hear today. All right, let's get to it. Jenni Catron is a leadership expert, author and founder of The Foresight Group, where she helps organizations build healthy leaders and thriving cultures. What I appreciate most about Jenni is her clarity. She helps leaders move beyond vague ideas about culture and into something practical, understanding how values, behaviors and daily rhythms shape how people actually experience an organization. Our president and CEO, David Ashcraft, recently sat down with Jenni to talk about leadership culture, what it really takes to create an environment where people can thrive. They say culture trumps strategy, and if you want to be more intentional about the culture you're creating, this conversation is for you.

Speaker 3:
[02:26] Hey, well, Jenni, it's great to have you with us today on the GLN Podcast. So thank you for taking time with us.

Speaker 1:
[02:30] David, I always enjoy every time we get to connect and talk leadership. So thrilled to be here. Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[02:36] So Jenni, I'd love to just get to know you a little bit. And so tell us how you got started as a leader. You're involved in leadership and leadership circles and you've written books. And so how did you even get your start into leadership?

Speaker 1:
[02:48] Yeah, I feel oftentimes, David, like I was the accidental leader. I was a super driven, ambitious kid right out of college who wanted to make my mark. I worked in the music business in Nashville. So that was dream job for me. And I was just a bit of a bulldozer that, you know, type a first born overachiever who was ready to like make a mark. And my first work experience, I was excelling quickly, but then got promoted into management and kind of made a train wreck of it. My staff wanted to quit. I wanted to fire them. And my boss at the time reached out to me and he said, Jenni, you've got to learn to love people, to lead them. And I will never ever forget that statement, David, because it was one of the most key turning point in my journey and really awakened me to what leadership is. So when I think about it, it was like I just wanted to do great work and kind of achieve all my own dreams and ambitions. And that statement from my boss at the time completely like opened my eyes to this idea of leadership and what it actually means and what it looks like. So got my hands on my first John Maxwell book and just started reading and devouring everything I could on leadership.

Speaker 3:
[04:10] So do you remember back to those days? And was it that you were more focused on tactics or just getting the responsibilities done and not noticing the people around you? Or would you have looked back and evaluated yourself and said, man, I wasn't doing well relationally with people? How do you remember those days?

Speaker 1:
[04:28] Completely. I was a task person. I was just that my natural wiring is I love to get stuff done. And that's what I was doing. And that's what had made me successful to that point, is I was just doing the work that needed to be done and getting promoted and getting the pats on the back for it. And I lacked all of the relational intelligence of what really I think leadership is about. And I remember reading Jon Maxwell's quote, leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. And then I looked at that word influence because I was like, well, let's go a little deeper on this. And that word influence means the power to change or affect someone. And that's the definition that stopped me in my tracks. Cause I was like, I am changing and affecting the lives of the people that I lead, that I'm responsible for leading. And I thought of the people that had had influence in my life, leadership in my life. And some of them, it was great. Some of them, it was not so great. And it just, again, it was that, you know, you have those moments in your journey, personally, professionally, whatever the case might be, where something grabs your attention and you're never the same, right? Like you can never look at it the same. And that significance of what leadership really is, that power to change or affect others, it just kind of took a hold of me. And I was like, this is now the most important thing that I'm doing. This is now the thing I want to learn and understand. And it really, like from there, I feel like leadership just became my greatest passion. And it was very unexpected for me.

Speaker 3:
[06:05] So can you even remember, Black, what kind of changes did you make? Did you, were you very conscious of the changes you made in the way that you were leading? And did people notice the change?

Speaker 1:
[06:15] I hope that they noticed the change. I think that they noticed the change. Probably not overnight, but I think I became much more aware of, most of my motives were purely selfish. Like if I reflect on that, again, it was about what I was achieving, what I was doing. And this shift in perspective of my greatest joy, now becomes seeing the people around me thrive. Instead of it being about my, and of course I still love to get things done and I still love to achieve, but like my greatest joy becomes seeing other people thrive and seeing them use their God given gifts to do really great work. And as that shift occurred in me, I started to see that play out differently. So I was much more attentive with my team, right? I was much more intentional with my one-on-ones. Yes, I was doing the one-on-ones because it was a checkbox on my task list, right? But now it was the, oh wait, how can I serve them? What do they need? How can I help identify their strengths or gifts? Where do they need coaching that will help equip them to lead better? And so I think a lot of my perspective changed, which then changed my behavior as a leader. Yeah, that's great. And I can see the progression over time, I think, of my leadership getting to a healthier place, but it certainly wasn't overnight either.

Speaker 3:
[07:42] So you were there in Nashville and you moved from, or you were in the recording industry, or at least in that world. Where did you go from there?

Speaker 1:
[07:49] My husband and I had helped plant a church in Nashville. We had just volunteers, part of the core group launch team. And I got the tap on the shoulder of, hey, would you consider coming and working here on the executive director function, overseeing the staff, the strategy, and a fast growing church. And it was, again, another very unexpected career pivot, but one that just felt like this is the next way that God wants to use my gifts and my strengths. And so that I did for another nine years, and then served at another church in California for a couple of years as executive pastor. And then I launched the foresight group that I lead now where we help cultivate healthy leaders and thriving teams through leadership and culture work.

Speaker 3:
[08:35] That's great. That's good. So you talked about when there was the takeover back in Nashville, that that's when you first started noticing culture or that became a thing for you. So what was the difference? Was it different, the new company, from the old? Is that what you were noticing?

Speaker 1:
[08:50] It was fascinating, David, because the company that I was in, great environment, great experience, lots of vision, clear goals, I'm being challenged, I have relationships that are strong and healthy, and then we merged, and my job functionally stayed the same. So I technically had the same roster of artists that I was responsible for. I did marketing and brand development at the record company. And I had the same roster of artists, so I just took that roster with me. I was doing functionally the same job, but my team changed, my leader changed, and the environment changed. And I went from loving my work, like first one in, last one out, to doing the bare minimum. I was quite quitting before that was a thing, right? And I thought, what is going on? This isn't who I am, first of all. This is not who I am, and this is not how I want to show up. And so I began to diagnose, what is it? Because technically I'm doing the same job, but I'm doing the same job with a different team, a different environment. They weren't bad people, but it was just a different... And part of that was we're all smashed together, and so there was no clear culture, you know? And it just made me very aware of the responsibility leaders have to set and create an environment for their teams to thrive in. And so when I took the job at the church, I was equal parts exhilarated of I'm now... And I was in the second chair seat, I'm responsible for the staff team, and so I'm excited about the opportunity, and then I realized, oh, and I'm responsible. Like, you know, the environment we're creating rests significantly on my shoulders, not exclusively. And so I began to just dig into that to say, how do you do it? How do you create an environment where people are thriving? What are the ingredients of that? And so that just set me on another journey of... What I would say is like the next layer of leadership, there's that first layer of leadership that is like, your personal growth, development, understanding the skills and attitudes and behaviors of a leader. And then the culture piece to me is kind of leadership 2.0. It's the, now what is the environment you're creating as a leader that equips everybody else to thrive? And so I think it became the second part of my journey.

Speaker 3:
[11:12] Yeah, back then, was culture even a word? I'm trying to think back, so 15, 20 years ago.

Speaker 1:
[11:17] Yeah, I don't think so.

Speaker 3:
[11:19] So, if you were to define and, Jenni, you've done a lot of research on culture, you've written an excellent book on culture, and so you've kind of become an expert in that area. How do you define culture then? And when did you even start realizing and using the word culture?

Speaker 1:
[11:34] That's a great question. Yeah, yeah. It's funny to think of, when did I start using the word culture? I'll tell you how I define it. I define culture as clarity of who we are and how we work together to achieve our mission. And that definition is a bit, is on purpose because when I'm working with teams, the clarity of who we are, like our purpose, our why, the mission, vision, that's foundational to a culture, to an environment. Like we need to know why we're here. Who are we? What's distinct? What's unique? The second part of that is how do we work together? So what are those values, the beliefs and behaviors, the expectations that guide how we show up? Like what are those boundary markers for this is our team, this is who we are and this is how we behave together, so to speak. And so when I'm working with teams, we're defining those two things and it's all in service to the mission. Because sometimes culture gets a bad rap because it's like, oh, it's the perks and fun stuff and it's actually not. Those things can be helpful, but they're not actually core to creating the environment. Core to creating the environment is I have a deep sense of purpose of why we're here, what we're doing, we're on a mission together, and I know how I need to show up to make that possible. Again, what are the things that we're all agreeing to that help us achieve the mission together. So yeah, so that's how I think about it.

Speaker 3:
[13:10] Yeah, can I ask you, so I'm further along in my leadership journey than you, not from what I've accomplished, but just in age. So what I remember early on is people were talking about personality and that organizations had a personality in the church world. What I would constantly hear is that if you've been in the leadership role for seven years in your church, that it's taken on your personality. And so I'll challenge even still today, pastors or organizational leaders and say, if you don't like your organization, you've been there seven years, you only have yourself to look at because it's just mimicking you and how you operate. And so is culture personality or is that just a piece of it? I guess personality probably isn't so focused on the mission maybe as what you're describing, but how is it different? Is it the same kind of thing?

Speaker 1:
[13:56] That's a great question. That's a great question. I would say culture in founding organizations where the founding or the lead pastor, founding owner, leader, whatever the case might be, very often culture is synonymous with their personality. And I love how you even said that seven year mark, because there's probably a lot of truth to that. But so in a founder led organization, their personality is typically what the culture is, even if we have not clearly defined that. And that's one of my big sticking points for leaders is you have a culture whether you acknowledge it or not, right? Like whether you've put language to it or defined it, it's there, it's the experience people are having. And again, in founder led or even smaller organizations, that personality is shaping the culture very distinctly. Where I would say it kind of gets a little more complex is in larger organizations or in legacy organizations, where there are things that are in the culture, in the water, so to speak, that have just been there. And I will see this a lot when a new leader comes in and they're trying to make sense of the history. And there's, I think it was Edwin Friedman that talked about phantom power in an organization. That sometimes in legacy organizations, there's this phantom power. It's like, we don't know why we default to that, or we don't know why we always do things this way, or we don't know who the they is, but somebody is telling us we can't do this.

Speaker 3:
[15:38] And it's the way it works.

Speaker 1:
[15:39] Yeah, it's just the way it works, right? So I think as organizations age, there's a both-and. I think personality can be a piece of it, but I think it's most distinct when it's a founding leader that's still at the helm. But I would love your perspective on that, David, because again, you've seen a lot of different situations too. I love the question.

Speaker 3:
[16:02] Well, I think what you're saying is definitely true. And so I was essentially the founding pastor for 32 years, and so had an opportunity to shape it that way. And what's interesting even is you speak and saying that there's change that probably needs to happen. What do you want to keep? What do you want to transition to? And so as somebody that stepped out now three years ago, I think that's very true. Things do need to change. And yet, as somebody that was a part of it three years ago, I'm like, oh, don't change that, don't change that. So it's just it's a funny place to be in. But yet I think it's truly necessary. I think you're right on from that standpoint. So, Jenni, if it's a couple of things that you've said, one, obviously, it is possible to change a culture. But before you get to, I'd love to ask you that, is it truly possible to change the culture and how do you do that? But I don't know that I gave you an opportunity to fully say this is what culture is, or you said there's some defining things of what is included in culture and how you look at and define culture. And so describe what are the elements that make up culture? And then the second question is, is it possible to change it if you don't like the culture you're in now?

Speaker 1:
[17:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The defining elements for me in culture are values are kind of the, I would say the boundary markers for us in what are those values that we're aligning around. Again, mission is core. We need to know what that is. But then what are those values we're aligning around? And I know values feel tired, but here's where we take them further. One of the tools in the framework that I use to facilitate culture work, I call just the values grid. It's very simple, but it's saying, hey, what's the value? But then what's the belief behind that value? Why is that value so important to us? What's unique and distinct about that value and why it's important to us here? Then what does it look like? What are the behaviors? You know, in kind of giving some boundary markers around the behaviors that this is what we mean by this value. This is what it looks like in action. And then where a leader can put stories and language to that value. And really, what I'm getting at is the rituals, rhythms and reminders are often the anchors of culture. Like, what are our rituals? The things we do and the way we do things. What are the reminders? How are we making sure our staff bump into the best of who we are all the time? And so we want to create rhythms organizationally that ensure that the things that we've defined that are core to who we are and who we want to be, because there's always an aspiration to culture. When we get clear about, hey, this is the culture we aspire to, there's always a bit of an aspiration. So how do we ensure that there are rhythms organizationally that allow us to ensure you're just bumping into that wherever you go? So when I'm working with a team, we'll start from how you are interviewing and onboarding new team members all the way to how people depart the organization. We're looking at all those key markers in an employee's journey with our team and saying, where are they at all of these key places from being hired to onboarding, to training, to weekly meetings, to one-on-ones, to performance reviews, to staff celebrations and everything in between. How are we ensuring that there's a consistency in what they experience? So we actually build, I call it a culture operating system where we get really intentional to say, hey, this isn't just the quarterly rah-rah event or the episodic thing that we do because we're like, oh, we need to focus on culture or we wrote those values and we put them on the wall and then we kind of forgot about them. No, we actually build an operating system that ensures that our culture is consistent throughout the organization and it built into our rhythms. So the rhythms, the rituals and the reminders are the stories, right? Where we're saying, hey, here's what we look like at our best. That's one of my favorite questions to ask a team is what do you look like at your best? And everybody lights up and they start to talk about, you know, this is who we are and this is how we work together. Because these are the moments, the bright spots, the culture of bright spots.

Speaker 3:
[20:13] You know, what's fun about that, Jenni? So two things, one, we tell stories all the time again and again and again. And there's something about repeating stories. I know sometimes as speakers, we feel like we've got to say something fresh all the time. But there is something about repeating history, if it's a good thing, and just going back and reminding ourselves of what we've experienced, what we've learned. And so I think telling those stories again and again is truly important. I think people that are in the culture and love the culture, they don't mind hearing them again because it's just like, oh yeah, that's, it's kind of a family story of this is who we are as a family. And I love that. And then I think repeating, what are the good moments? And so one of the things we do at LCBC is we'll do what we call a huddle. And we'll do it once a month, and we have about 300 on our staff. We stand in a circle in a big room, and we'll just say, okay, tell us what's going well. And just stories, just repeat stories. And it almost ends up being like a mini pep rally. And it's not intended to be that, but it ends up being that because you hear these stories again and again of successes. Everybody cheers and is excited. And what I found for me is if I was either trying to hire a staff person from within the church, but I wanted to leave their job in the marketplace and come on to our staff, if I could get them to huddle, then usually it would sell them. And then if I had somebody from a donation standpoint that I wanted to give to the church, if I could get them at a huddle, and they could be there and hear their stories that typically give a much larger gift than maybe they were anticipating. So there is something powerful about those stories.

Speaker 1:
[21:38] Yeah, and you know, because it connects us with the shared experience together, right? And the power of team and the power of accomplishing something together is just extraordinary. And I think that's one of the harder things right now. When it comes to culture and team dynamics with hybrid work, remote work, we're all trying to figure out how to keep some of those really important moments like the huddle that you just talked about, that those are really critical to helping us remember this is why we're here, this is what we do, this is what it looks like when we rally around this together. And so I love that the stories are so significant. I love how you talked about even the repeating them and telling them over and over because they do become the legends. They do become a little bit of the insider language. But in culture, I actually think that's okay as long as we're intentional to actually bring everybody into those stories. So this is why I coach leaders to, we need to define your culture, we need to build a playbook, we need to build those rhythms so that we don't forget to tell the stories to the people who come on board. They're caught up to culture. We did something at the church I was at in Nashville called Culture Shock. And every new team member would rotate into, we had a six-month program called Culture Shock, which was basically a monthly lunch with one of our exec team members. And that exec team member would walk you through one of our values, and they would tell you the stories and they would share the insights, all the little nuances around those values and why they're so critical to us. And then we also had a library of books that were things that had shaped our culture. And so every month you read the book, you learned a value, and you had, usually it was a small group, there were usually two or three or five new team members that were in that lunch with you. So you were meeting other new team members, you were sitting with an executive, and you were hearing the stories. And so it was a really powerful way and it was a rhythm that we created to ensure every new team member got caught up with the story. So they didn't feel like an outsider when they were sitting in staff meeting and everybody else is starting to finish your sentence. And they're like, what is that? I don't know that story. So there's things like that, that just become really powerful in helping shape culture.

Speaker 3:
[24:09] I've even found Jenni telling negative stories over and over and not being necessarily proud of them, but they also teach culture because it's setting that boundary of this is what we don't do. And here's where we messed up before what we learned from it. And so being able to go back and even just rehearse that has also been real teachable moments for us.

Speaker 1:
[24:28] I was going to say, I love the humility of that, David, of that there's a little bit of like that humility to say, yep, we haven't gotten this right all the time. And so here's what we learned and here's why this, here's how this informed us, informs us.

Speaker 3:
[24:40] It's kind of why we are the way we are now because of the mistakes we made in the past.

Speaker 1:
[24:43] Yeah, that's so good.

Speaker 3:
[24:44] That's so good. Can I go back to values real quick? I think there's a tendency for organizations to want to shortcut values from the standpoint of rather than us figuring out what truly are our values, we go to another organization or in the church world, you go to another church, you see their values on the wall, you go, yeah, that's ours. And so then we just take them and put them on our wall. They're not really ours, they're somebody else's. And so I like the fact that you talked about Jenni, the values, they can be different in your context. It can be the exact same wording, but it looks very different in your context than it does in our context. And so talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[25:18] Yeah, yeah. I love that you brought that up because we are notorious for doing that. Here's one of my favorite stories, David. When I was helping CrossPoint in Nashville, do our values when I was executive director there, one of our values is use your blinker, which is a communication value. The value is collaborative communication, and the belief behind that is communication is an act of respect to our coworkers. When we're intentional to communicate, make sure the right people have the right information at the right time, it's an act of respect. That was our why, that was our belief statement. But I told the story when I was helping explain the value of, if anybody had ever driven with me, they knew what I would say is an efficient driver. Others might say fast, a few others might say a little scary, but I prefer efficient. And that was just kind of a common, like one of those funny things in team dynamics. I said, but if you ever notice, I religiously use my turn signal. Like I am like, I can be in the parking lot and the turn signal's on, because if you're moving fast, if you don't communicate well, you're gonna crash. We wanna mine for what are the things that are really core to how we operate? Because there's things that are already there, whether you've named them or not. But then getting more specific around that. Well, what do you mean by responsiveness? Well, somebody's gonna bring an interpretation of that, that if I respond to your email, it's any point. That's responsible.

Speaker 3:
[26:53] Seven days, that's great. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:55] Yeah. Yeah. When your expectation as the leader might be, hey, within 24 hours. Yeah, today. And so that giving it time and language and then mining for the stories that have shaped it inside your culture, it brings it to life for your team in a way that's just totally different from, if you go borrow them and they sound good and fun and catchy. But when you internalize it, and I will tell leaders, this takes work. And David, I'm sure this was the experience you had. I will prep leaders to say, hey, give it full six months. You'll do it, you'll draft it, you'll work with it, and then you'll adjust it and you'll edit and you'll get feedback from your team. And it'll take a good six months before you're like, this is it, we've got them, now they're ready.

Speaker 4:
[27:45] Hey, everybody, this is Eric, content producer for The Global Leadership Podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by our partner, World Vision. If you're looking for some leadership encouragement today, I definitely recommend checking out a free resource from World Vision's president and CEO, Edgar Sandoval. You can find it at worldvision.org/leadership2026. In this free resource, Edgar shares some practical insights from his experience navigating organizational challenges at both World Vision and Procter & Gamble while still keeping his teams energized and focused on innovation. It's a great mix of encouragement and real world leadership wisdom. So if you need a boost, go take a look at worldvision.org/leadership2026. You can also find the link in today's show notes. And now let's get back to the conversation.

Speaker 3:
[28:42] And Jenni, what about, so as you say that and taking time, I'm guessing that you didn't come up with use your blanker right away. And so what I find sometimes is people sit down, they're working on their values, and they're thinking they've got to come up with a little catchy phrase.

Speaker 1:
[28:56] Right.

Speaker 3:
[28:56] My experience is that doesn't come until a little bit later, and you're actually operating, and then that story will come up. I was talking with a guy earlier this morning, and we were talking about being careful as executives not to just swoop in to different environments. And a phrase that we often use at LCBC is, let's not be the pigeon, that just goes in and poops on everybody, but then takes off and leaves them with a mess. And so that was a story that came over time. It's not when we just sat down and said, let's work on our values. And so how important is a catchy little phrase, but also be careful and make sure it's truly, really internalized and true to you and your personality.

Speaker 1:
[29:33] Yeah, that's so good. Such a great catch. And so I agree with you that many times, if you try to force it, it's going to feel forced.

Speaker 3:
[29:41] It's going to feel that way.

Speaker 1:
[29:42] Yeah, exactly. So when I'm coaching leaders around this, define the value, like get those three to five, like that are really key and core to how you're, how the core things you want your team operating around.

Speaker 3:
[29:55] And three to five is key instead of seven, eight, nine, ten. So yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:58] Yes. Yeah. I think Patrick Lencioni will say no more than three. I, my first batch at Crosspoint, we had seven. And at any given time, I couldn't remember more than five, you know? And so typically you're going to remember about five and that's as good as it's going to get. And it's not that other things aren't important because that's the argument sometimes, right? But integrity and character, well, of course, those are kind of permission to play values like those we're vetting out earlier. What I'm looking for are the things that are exceptionally distinct to...

Speaker 3:
[30:30] Unique to you. Yeah. In your organization. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:32] And so, but then, find the belief why, why and put it in one or two sentences because that's when your team will like resonate with it. It's like, oh, this is why, this is why this is such a big deal. Like communication is an act of respect. When I use that phrase with our team, you could, everybody, you could see them react to it. Oh, that is a big deal because when somebody doesn't give me the information I need, I feel disrespected. I feel like they didn't think about me. I feel like they didn't care, right? So it hit a nerve with the team that they were like, oh, yeah, we're just not talking about just random communication. We're talking about that intentional thinking on behalf of one another. And then we put some behaviors around it. And our behaviors were three simple questions. Who needs to know? What do they need to know? And when do they need to know it? And we said, hey, if you start with those three questions, if you're going to make a decision, ask, make a decision, take action, ask those three questions, just pause long enough. Who needs to know? What do they need to know? And when do they need to know it? You're going to communicate better. You just are, right? Like if that's all you do, you will begin to communicate better.

Speaker 3:
[31:42] We had an example where excellence was definitely a primary focus for us at LCBC, but trying to define, okay, what does that look like in so many different areas? And so one of our executive team just mentioned that whenever he goes into the bathrooms at church, typically, especially on the weekends, there's a lot of people there, then you've got soap on the counters and water is kind of falling off the counter. And so he just makes it his habit. He'll go in, wash his hands, use the paper towel, but then he'll wipe down the counter every time that he's there and just cleans it up real fast. And it's a 15 second thing.

Speaker 1:
[32:15] Totally.

Speaker 3:
[32:15] But that became kind of a standard now for everybody that just goes in and when you're in the bathroom, you wipe down the sinks real quick. I'll find myself almost tempted to do it at airports and things like that, which is normal. But it gave a definition of what excellence looks like just at a very practical way.

Speaker 1:
[32:30] That's so good. Yeah, that's a great example. Right? Because it's a symbol of the type of attitude and behavior we want to have around that value. Right? It's like we won't catch every possible thing that you could do to demonstrate excellence. But I love how that was a, this is an example of what this looks like in action. There's just an intentionality to make sure we're at our best.

Speaker 3:
[32:52] Exactly. So, let's go back to the question. You step into an organization, so you talked about founder organizations, but maybe you're not the founder. You step into an organization, and you don't like the culture that's there, and so you're trying to change it. So, what are some steps to go about changing culture? Is it possible to change it, and how quickly should somebody hope that it's truly going to change? So, what are some steps to move forward that way?

Speaker 1:
[33:16] Yeah, great question, great question. And particularly, if you're a new leader stepping into an organization, you absolutely should do the work of defining culture now, right? Like, and so, and if you're stepping into it, and you're like, there's some things that I don't like, things that need to change, you want to start with first assessing where we are, like making sure you've got a good pulse point on just what's true in the culture. So, that might be a survey of the team to just get some good data points. It might be if you're new to the organization, you might be doing, you're already doing a lot of focus groups and getting to know people. So, listening for the things that are just true about the culture right now. So, you've got a good sense of, here's where we are. Then sitting down and saying, okay, now I want to define what we're aspiring to. What does it look like? You know, again, so what are the values? If we already have values, what might need to change in those values? Just the other things you're noticing that you're like, okay, I want to see a shift in these things. So, getting as much definition and clarity around what you aspire to as you possibly can. And then you're sitting down, and I would recommend doing this with a team of staff. In fact, what I prescribe is build a culture team that is people from throughout the organization, not just the senior leaders, but people at various seats in the organization, people that have been there for 20 years, people that have been there for two months, young team members, tenured team members. Just get a good mix of different voices, people that are for the mission, like they're on board. So, you want the people who are already modeling some of the best of the culture, but get them around the table and have them brainstorm with you. How do we get from here to here? You as the leader setting the vision of, here's the culture I aspire to for us. Here's what I see. Here's what I hope for. Getting them around the table to help start owning that with you, even helping give you perspective around what that's going to take, and then starting to build a plan. The thing about culture is it doesn't break overnight and it doesn't fix overnight. It is patient, persistent work, and a lot of it is behavior change. So behavior change is not quick change. Every leader knows that. When we want to shift behaviors, that is deep work. It's patient and persistent work. So a lot of research will tell you that it takes about three to five years to change a culture. So this isn't an overnight thing, although you can see some quick wins and some, you can look for those things that you can start shifting and adjusting. But whatever you've defined that you aspire to, just know that that's going to take a little bit of time.

Speaker 3:
[36:02] So it's okay to be aspirational as you're starting this and saying, here's where we want to go. Realize it's going to take time to get there, but you keep moving.

Speaker 1:
[36:10] That's right.

Speaker 3:
[36:11] Is there ever a point where you go, this isn't going to happen? And does that mean the leader needs to move on? Or if it doesn't change, what are usually some, not indicators, I mean, you know it's not changing. And so where do you point the finger? What do you usually look at?

Speaker 1:
[36:28] Yeah, you know, if it's not changing, and especially if you're the leader and you're in a position where you have agency to help affect that change, I would be looking at what am I still tolerating?

Speaker 3:
[36:40] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[36:41] What am I still tolerating? Because maybe there's some legacy team members, maybe there are some board members that are not actively working with you towards that because they're holding on to some legacy pieces. I'd be looking for what am I tolerating or allowing that is incongruent with what we're trying to move towards? So then are we not aligned on vision? So that's where I'd be looking if it feels like it's beyond my ability to influence or change it, then is there some place where we're not aligned on vision? And I've got to go back to that to make sure that they understand and I've cast vision well to them for where we want to go. Because they might be unintentionally working against us. So those are a couple of examples. I don't know, you might have some things that I've come to mind.

Speaker 3:
[37:26] I know that you talk about what we tolerate because I've heard a simple definition of culture. It's what we celebrate and what we tolerate. And I think oftentimes, especially in the church world, we don't like confrontation. We don't like to change things that are probably inappropriate. And so we tend to overlook them or hope they're going to pass or things like that. And so we tolerate a lot longer than we should, most likely. And so, yeah, it's making that decision to say, OK, this is not tolerable. And what I found, Jenni, is usually everybody else in the organization knows that somebody's violating the values. And with one person, there could be multiple people that are violating it, but one person, you make a change, and that shapes everybody up pretty quickly to go, oh, OK, this isn't tolerated anymore. And so, yeah. Jenni, is it possible to be successful as an organization, but still have a toxic culture or environment? And how would I know as a leader that my environment is toxic? What are, are there some signs that I'm looking for? Is it, so, yeah. Would you be able to describe anything that way?

Speaker 1:
[38:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So is it possible for your organization to be successful and still be toxic for a season would be my answer to that. I think it eventually catches up with you.

Speaker 3:
[38:40] So eventually there'll be a blow up or something will happen.

Speaker 1:
[38:42] Yeah, eventually something will happen. You know, the thing about culture is it's an outcome, right? So whatever we're putting into the environment is ultimately creating the culture. So it's a lag measure, so to speak. The culture we have is kind of a lag measure. There's just a remarkable amount of research around how when cultures are healthy, how productivity, profitability, all of those things are up. A turnover goes down, retention goes up, employee engagement is up. All of the metrics that organizations care about all go the right direction when culture is strong and healthy, eventually an unhealthy culture will start to erode the momentum. And then what was your question?

Speaker 3:
[39:29] I think that's especially true as you say that it's a lag measure, then it ultimately, yeah, it's going to come out at some point.

Speaker 1:
[39:35] Yeah. And you were asking, what does that look like? What it looks like is, I had a leader reach out to me, this was a couple years ago now, but a leader of an organization that I've worked with for about 10 years on and off, you know, know his team well, know the leader well, leader with big vision, big heart, loves his team. And he called and he said, Jenni, something's off. Like, I don't know what it is, but something's off. And so then he began to describe to me things like an unexpected resignation from a long tenure team member, right? Like that started to give him hint of the, like, this was really unexpected, like, so. But things like they used to be much more unified in a connected team. And he started to just see silos and the team was a little more pocketed. It was, they were still getting everything done, right? Like they were still technically doing the work, but they were less collaborative. They were more siloed in doing their own thing. And some of that was a byproduct of growth. It wasn't that something had happened to make them all go into their own corners. It was growth and speed of change and impact of growth was causing them to have to just double down and focus on their specific area. And then the other telltale was that he said he would walk into a room and things would get quiet. And just, you know, he could tell they were holding back. There was something that team wasn't telling him. And so I use those by way of an example of a leader who was just like, hey, here's these. I can't make sense of all of these, but there's just these episodic things happening that aren't quite right. And that would be my encouragement to a leader is if you start to have those moments of, ah, that's just a little off, like don't just brush over it. Don't ignore it. It's probably a symptom of something going a little sideways in your culture, and you can still respond to it.

Speaker 3:
[41:40] That's good. So last question. You do a lot of traveling. You're working with lots of people. Are organizations healthier than the leaders think or are they typically not as healthy as they think? Do we as leaders, as leaders, do we tend to have rose-colored glasses and think our organizations are really better than they are? Or is it the other way around?

Speaker 1:
[42:00] Yeah, unfortunately, my, what I tip, and this is true even of myself with my team, for us as leaders, our culture is never as good as we think it is. It just, because what we experience, we've had a lot of influence and shaping. And so we're comfortable with whatever it is. But the experience for the team throughout the organization is likely not the same. And we're unaware of exactly what they're experiencing. And so it takes a lot, David, this, and you know this, because you're such a veteran leader, but it takes so much humility as a leader to say, and that's always my encouragement to leaders is, hey, just start from the premise. It's probably not as good as I think it is. Because if you start from there and you're curious enough and humble enough to say, hey, I just need to know, I need to know because that's power. That enables us to know, here's what I need to do to lead and lead in a healthy way. So yeah, it's never as good as we think it is. And if we start with that premise, then we're going to get curious and we're going to figure out what do we need to know to help us lead better.

Speaker 3:
[43:14] Make it better. Yeah, that's great. Jenni, thank you. I always appreciate the time with you. And then I was just going to say you rattled off four or five things, productivity, some other things, that if the culture is off, it does affect the bottom line of the organization. So it is worth the trouble. The phrase culture trumps strategy, strategy, not tragedy, tragedy every time. Do you think that's a true statement?

Speaker 1:
[43:38] I think it's 100% true. I really do think it is true. And we might not feel it in the short term, but we will feel it in the long term. And just real quickly, Mark Miller, former VP at Chick-fil-A, who's done a ton of culture research, did a study a handful of years ago and found that people say that leaders would put their priorities on the list and culture was 12th on the list. And he's like, who gets to their 12th priority? Right? No leaders getting to their 12th priority. My conviction, David, is that if culture moves to our first priority, everything else, it has a cascading effect on everything else. Again, the data tells us that. The data tells us engagement goes up. All the growth metrics that we care about are impacted by culture, but it isn't overnight. And I think that's the thing that is hard for us as leaders is this is you see the momentum builds and you see the snowball effect of this over time. And so that's my mission is to just help leaders realize, if you start with culture, we're not ignoring everything else. But if we start with culture, it's going to influence everything else in a positive way.

Speaker 3:
[44:53] That's great. Great stuff. And I know at the Global Leadership Network, Jenni, we appreciate you very much.

Speaker 1:
[44:58] And the work that you're doing.

Speaker 3:
[45:00] How do people get a hold of you if they're interested? And then Culture Matters is your most recent book. And so great, great tool for people that, as I remember, it definitely is almost like a handbook of this is how to go through and really work on changing your culture. So great tool, but how would people get a hold of you if they want to get a hold of you?

Speaker 1:
[45:17] Thanks so much, David. And again, thank you guys for the way you're investing in leaders. So grateful for just the relationship and connection with global leadership. I am at Jenni Catron on all the social, LinkedIn, Instagram, all the things. And then GetForesight is our website. It's G-E-T, the number four, sight.com. I do a podcast. We do weekly newsletter. We have tons of free resources. You can find the book there. Our hard is to equip leaders to be healthy and build thriving teams. So anyway, we can support leaders. We are honored to do so. Great.

Speaker 3:
[45:51] Jenni, thanks so much. Great talking with you.

Speaker 1:
[45:53] Thanks so much, David.

Speaker 2:
[45:57] That was such a helpful conversation. Personally, I love talking about developing culture. It takes a lot of effort, but once it's created and cultivated, it makes coming to work so life-giving. And we all want work to feel life-giving, right? We've emphasized culture extensively at the GLN. And right now, I can honestly say, I don't get the Sunday scaries. I'm excited to collaborate with my teammates. And even when we have huge goals and noticeable obstacles, I know I have a team that will rally around the work and give 110% for the mission and for one another. Building that culture didn't come easily. There were a lot of tears in the early years, but that work, man, it was worth it. One thing Jenni said that really stuck with me is this. We often treat culture like a nice to have, when it actually needs to be one of our top priorities. It may not feel as tangible as a strategy or a metric, but culture is a thing that shapes everything else. It impacts engagement, how your team shows up. It impacts whether people feel energized or just going through the motions. So if you're wondering where to focus your leadership right now, this is it. Start paying attention to the culture you're creating. Name it, shape it. Be intentional with it. Because building a culture people actually want to be a part of, that's core leadership work. And before we go, thank you to our Summit Champions. Your generosity allows us to provide conversations like this for free to leaders all over the world. And speaking of building culture, the Global Leadership Summit is coming up and one of the ways to grow your team is to come experience it together. Right now you can grab a TeamPass, five tickets to a local site and save $100. Or with a TeamPass Plus, you can bring six people or more and save $180. When you attend together, you don't just learn, you build shared vision, shared language and shared culture. You can learn more at globalleadership.org/summit. Thanks for being here and remember, everyone has influence, so lead where you are.