transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] You're listening to A Complexly Podcast. Hello, and welcome to Dear Hank and John.

Speaker 2:
[00:12] Or as we're calling it this week, Dear Sarah and John.

Speaker 1:
[00:15] It's a podcast where two spouses answer your questions, give you dubious advice, and bring you all the week's news from, well, we'll see. At any rate, Hank is not available this week, and so I'm joined by my favorite person, my spouse, Sarah Urist Green. Hello, Sarah.

Speaker 2:
[00:29] Hi, John, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:
[00:31] Oh my gosh, thanks for being here. We just recorded our hit project for Awesome Only podcast, Like Letters, where we read the letters that we wrote to each other before we started dating.

Speaker 2:
[00:40] Yes, and by letters, you mean emails.

Speaker 1:
[00:43] I mean emails.

Speaker 2:
[00:44] And it's always a ride. It's always an interesting conversation departure point.

Speaker 1:
[00:51] Yeah, we read the first emails we ever sent each other way back 23 years ago, and we were already talking about art and writing. And here we are 23 years later, still talking about art and writing all the time.

Speaker 2:
[01:03] That's right. And with the questions that we have today, a lot of it is about, you guessed it, art and writing.

Speaker 1:
[01:10] Yeah. So let's hop right into it, Sarah. You got a question for me?

Speaker 2:
[01:13] Okay. Yeah. This one comes from Abigail. Dear Sarah and John, I'm working on my art history master's degree in order to get a job at an art museum. I have recently been confronted by my greatest art fear, performance art.

Speaker 1:
[01:26] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[01:27] I attended a performance where the artist squirted syringes full of quote-unquote blood into audience members' mouths. Yikes. I knew that it couldn't actually be blood, but I did not want to find out. Of course, the artist could sense my fear and came right up to me. Turns out it was cherry juice. If I'm going to work in contemporary art museums, I'm going to encounter more performance art. How do I overcome this fear? Artworks and anxiety, Abigail.

Speaker 1:
[01:53] Abigail, I share this fear on such a profound level. One of the first times that Sarah and I ever hung out was at her art gallery where she was working. And there was an opening, and as part of the opening, one of the artists did a performance. And I'm just going to throw it out there, Sarah. I don't think that artists, if you're like a sculptor, I don't think you need to do a performance. Just do a sculpture.

Speaker 2:
[02:15] I'm not doing this. I can't, I think if you want to perform, you perform, John.

Speaker 1:
[02:21] Oh God, so this artist, he had this candy that was candied crabs, remember? Yes. As part of the performance, he handed out the candy and he watched me open it and put it in my mouth.

Speaker 2:
[02:34] Like little bitty inch long crabs.

Speaker 1:
[02:38] That were candied.

Speaker 2:
[02:39] Crunchy.

Speaker 1:
[02:40] He watched me put the candy crab into my mouth and then just stared at me as I was like, yeah, thank you, sir.

Speaker 2:
[02:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:50] It was so weird. Some performances are beautiful, like that Francis Elise piece where he pushes a big block of ice down the street in Mexico City until it becomes nothing.

Speaker 2:
[02:59] Yes. The easiest gateway into performance art is watching video documentation of performance art.

Speaker 1:
[03:06] Yeah, that's fine because it's not as stressful.

Speaker 2:
[03:08] A lot of artists use that approach. They want to do a performance, but it's important that it be in a specific place like Francis Elise's piece, and then you can just watch it and then you don't have to usually feel that embarrassment or the anxiety of being there. But I mean, okay, I will tell you one thing, Abigail. When I was making the video series, The Art Assignment, I made a video called The Case for Performance Art.

Speaker 1:
[03:38] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[03:39] So I would recommend that you watch that. But I'll summarize it. I mean, I don't really remember all of it right now, but I'll summarize it by saying like, you have to learn to sit in discomfort. Right.

Speaker 1:
[03:55] That's actually how OCD therapy works.

Speaker 2:
[03:59] Exposure therapy.

Speaker 1:
[04:00] Exposure therapy works.

Speaker 2:
[04:01] Yeah. I mean, it's a good approach for a lot of contemporary art settings, not just about performance. I mean, I remember when I was working in a museum and I invited an artist to come give a talk, and you're sitting there in the audience, and you're like, freak, are enough people going to come? Did I publicize this well enough?

Speaker 1:
[04:27] Are they going to say something weird?

Speaker 2:
[04:29] Right. Or are they going to be a good speaker? You pay for someone to come out and meet your community, and you beg your community to come see it, and you put all this effort into this person, and then they open their mouths, and sometimes the ones you think are going to be great are terrible, and the ones that you think are going to be terrible are great, and you're sitting there full of anxiety.

Speaker 1:
[04:56] Again, you have to learn to live with uncertainty. That's what performance art is really about is living with uncertainty, and artists in general, performance artists especially are pretty good at that. But as the audience, my feeling has always been, and you know how I feel about this Sarah, I love a fourth wall. I love a strong wall between audience and art.

Speaker 2:
[05:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:16] And so performance artists are always breaking down that wall and making me participate in the art, and that makes me uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:
[05:23] Not always.

Speaker 1:
[05:24] Often. Often. More than you'd think.

Speaker 2:
[05:27] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:28] Who is that guy who wore the meat suit?

Speaker 2:
[05:30] Zhang Huan.

Speaker 1:
[05:32] That guy. I mean, if you weren't wearing a meat suit around New York City, Yeah. that makes me so uncomfortable. Wasn't he naked underneath the meat suit?

Speaker 2:
[05:41] Okay. Here's what I'll add to this, Abigail. If you want to work in this field, you will likely find yourself in more of a host position.

Speaker 1:
[05:53] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[05:54] Like where you've invited or someone you work with has invited this person to come do this thing. And when I've been in that role, I'm like, well, I guess I'm going to have to do it. You know, I'm going to be the participant. I'm going to be willing and I like just reconcile myself to that. But it's, it's tough.

Speaker 1:
[06:17] You know, my favorite piece of performance art I've ever seen is, what's that woman's name? I remember no artist names, as you can tell. And this is putting you on the spot. You might not remember her name either. I think her name was Kate and she made a very small container for herself. And then she wore a business suit.

Speaker 2:
[06:36] Kate Gilmore.

Speaker 1:
[06:36] Kate Gilmore. And then she had to break out of the small container inside of her while wearing her business suit and her heels and everything.

Speaker 2:
[06:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:44] That was great.

Speaker 2:
[06:44] That was great.

Speaker 1:
[06:45] But again, it didn't make me do anything.

Speaker 2:
[06:47] She documented it.

Speaker 1:
[06:49] She documented it.

Speaker 2:
[06:50] Yes. The one other thing that I will say is, when you're in a group setting and you experience a performance together and it's really awkward, there's usually a great moment after where you can sort of commune and commiserate with the people who were also in the audience. Maybe you're with a friend or a co-worker, or maybe you just lock eyes with a stranger and have a shared moment of, oh, God, what has just happened? So there's also something that happens after the anxiety. Right. That is the relief. And of course, performance art is trying to push social boundaries, push your limits of what is acceptable. And yeah, it's uncomfortable. And it's not that much. You don't have to do it that much usually, unless you're working for a performance art biennial or something. In that case, good luck.

Speaker 1:
[07:51] Godspeed. All right. We have another question from Sarah. I don't think this is you.

Speaker 2:
[07:55] It's not me.

Speaker 1:
[07:56] No. Dear John and Hank and Sarah, how do I visit an art museum properly? Should I be analyzing the art like the former art major I was, or should I be reading all the plaques to learn about the history of the art like the nerd I am? It never feels like there's enough time for both. Thank you, Sarah.

Speaker 2:
[08:10] Yeah, that's a great question. Why don't you take it first?

Speaker 1:
[08:12] Well, I do like to read the wall labels, but I think mostly because I've been married for many years to a curator who writes them, and so I want to respect the work of the curators. But I like to make my way through an art show at my own pace and let my interest decide how fast I go, what I stop and look at. And I try to pay attention to two things. One is the art itself, and the second is the way in which the art is presented to me. You know, is it chronological? Like we just went to this incredible Kerry James Marshall show at the Royal Academy in London. And in that show, it wasn't really chronological. It was more organized by theme. Here are some of his works about the Middle Passage. Here are some of his works about various public housing projects around the United States. Here are paintings that he made just for this show, et cetera. And I thought that was one of the best art shows I've ever seen, best contemporary art shows I've ever seen, partly because of the quality of the work itself, but partly because the work was presented to me in such an accessible way. And so I like to let my own interest guide me. And the other thing is that I try not to like judge myself or be in a position where I'm telling myself like, oh, this is what a proper art enthusiast would do. They build very high walls, the art world, and they tell you like, oh, everyone's welcome here, but then they don't make you feel welcome. You know, like art galleries are free and open to the public, but like they don't make you feel like they're free and open to the public with their incredibly intimidating doors that don't have signs on them or have opening hours, you know? And like that's something that drives me really crazy about the art world, the contemporary art world especially.

Speaker 2:
[09:59] You're totalizing this. There are ranges. There are more and less accessible places, but yes.

Speaker 1:
[10:05] When I walk in to David's Warner Gallery.

Speaker 2:
[10:07] That's a gallery. We're talking about museums.

Speaker 1:
[10:10] Yes, there are more and less difficult museums to walk into. But every museum is a little intimidating for most people.

Speaker 2:
[10:18] Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[10:19] And I think the art world doesn't do a good job of breaking down those walls sometimes. And so the thing I tell myself is like, there is no difference between me and a proper art enthusiast. Like I am a proper art enthusiast if I like art.

Speaker 2:
[10:32] Right. So one of the first things I try to do when I'm entering a museum, or preparing, or getting into the right mindset for a museum visit, is figuring out what exactly I want to see, or what I want to see, how much time do you have? Do you have an hour? Do you want to be there for a short visit? Is this going to be like a multi-hour slog? Are you at a museum that is in your hometown, and you can visit again and again, or have been there before? If it's something like that, maybe you just focus on the things that are there temporarily. Maybe you're in Oslo, and this is your only chance, probably, to ever visit the museum there.

Speaker 1:
[11:18] Unless you're in Oslo and...

Speaker 2:
[11:20] Yeah, is that the word?

Speaker 1:
[11:21] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[11:23] Then you may want to devote some more time and try to see more of it. But a lot of times when I go to a museum, I'll be like, you know what? I'm tired. It's the end of a long day of sightseeing or what have you. I am just going to pick a gallery that doesn't have very many people. I don't like really crowded galleries. So I'm going to go. I don't think I'm necessarily interested in whatever this work is, but I'm just going to give myself permission to enjoy this quieter space. And sometimes I'll do a walk around and say, okay, I'm not going to read any labels on this pass through. I'm going to walk around the gallery and I'm just going to use my eyes, because I don't like to switch between visually assessing something and reading. I actually really don't enjoy reading labels in the gallery. I find it awkward.

Speaker 1:
[12:14] Oh, interesting.

Speaker 2:
[12:15] I mean, I like having the knowledge. I love an audio guide, but I also like to pause. Anyway, I guess this is a lot of saying, if you were an art major, I think that you can entertain yourself in your head quite a bit about the work, and you should feel confident to say, you know what, today, I'm not going to read labels, or today, I am going to read all the labels. It also depends, what are you looking at? Does the work tell you everything you need to know, or could the label make your experience richer? I would just give yourself the freedom to see how you're feeling, see how much energy you have. Is this a day for looking? Is this a day for reading? Is this a day for a little bit of both? And just feel confident to make your own choices.

Speaker 1:
[13:07] I like that. Just don't judge yourself too much. This is like, thing in general, when you're reading, when you're going-

Speaker 2:
[13:13] What not to do.

Speaker 1:
[13:14] What not to do.

Speaker 2:
[13:15] Don't tell the other people in your group what something means. Don't be like the know it all. Nobody likes that. I think you have a conversation with the people you're with. If you're with other people, that can be a great way, but like ask questions about it together. As someone who's been to art school, nobody really wants a lecture from you.

Speaker 1:
[13:37] I don't know. I kind of like it when you lecture me, but I hear you. All right. We got another question from Raina who writes, Dear Brothers Green, a year ago, I was awarded with an amazing grant to fund my art project. It's a lot of money and responsibility, and I feel like I've done an okay job as an administrator. But as an artist, even if I feel like my work is kind of cool, I do not feel like I can stand there on the day of the exhibition and give a speech about my work being great and important without feeling like a total fart face. How do you stand in front of a crowd and ask people to appreciate your little thoughts and little feelings portrayed into an art thing? Help the opening could be in two months. So this is not just for artists, like scientists who have their posters at a big gathering, or people in the humanities who have their papers read. This is the most horrifying thing in the world. To have to stand by your poster while other people just walk past it and they're like, oh, it's a little bit about tuberculosis in the 17th century. Okay. Yeah. And did you do this?

Speaker 2:
[14:34] You did. Tell me more about it.

Speaker 1:
[14:36] Oh, God, it's horrible.

Speaker 2:
[14:38] Are you in a science fair in this situation?

Speaker 1:
[14:40] No, I met one of these big tuberculosis conferences.

Speaker 2:
[14:43] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[14:44] Where there is a room full of posters, literal posters.

Speaker 2:
[14:50] And you stand next to yours?

Speaker 1:
[14:51] And you stand next to yours?

Speaker 2:
[14:53] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[14:53] And you wait as an adult with a PhD and a professorship or whatever, you wait for people to talk to you. It's horrible.

Speaker 2:
[15:03] Okay. So that sounds like a terrible situation.

Speaker 1:
[15:07] And the same thing with artists.

Speaker 2:
[15:08] But Reina has to give a speech about their work.

Speaker 1:
[15:12] But then they have to stand there.

Speaker 2:
[15:14] Yeah. But that's not what this is about.

Speaker 1:
[15:16] Think about when we're at an art show.

Speaker 2:
[15:18] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[15:19] Like when we go to an art show.

Speaker 2:
[15:20] I think the question here is, how do you talk about your work in a way that... I think it's hard. You've got to self promote.

Speaker 1:
[15:31] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:31] You have to take yourself seriously, but not too seriously. It is a difficult balance to strike.

Speaker 1:
[15:38] You have to be like, I'm a genius, but I'm not telling you that I'm a genius because that would be self-important.

Speaker 2:
[15:44] I think you have to find a way to talk about your intentions for the work.

Speaker 1:
[15:50] I'm about to go through this, actually.

Speaker 2:
[15:52] What you hope comes across.

Speaker 1:
[15:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:55] This came from this point for me.

Speaker 1:
[15:58] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:00] I think there is something that's built in humility about that.

Speaker 1:
[16:06] Right.

Speaker 2:
[16:06] Not assuming the essence of this work is da-da-da-da-da, because you can't assume what other people are going to take from it.

Speaker 1:
[16:14] Right.

Speaker 2:
[16:14] You can only know what you were trying to communicate.

Speaker 1:
[16:18] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[16:19] Which, to be fair, you weren't trying to communicate through words. Right.

Speaker 1:
[16:24] You were trying to communicate it through something beyond words.

Speaker 2:
[16:27] Through artwork.

Speaker 1:
[16:28] Yeah. Usually precisely because it's hard to communicate with words.

Speaker 2:
[16:32] Right. I would make yourself talking points. I would not read from those talking points.

Speaker 1:
[16:40] Agreed.

Speaker 2:
[16:41] I would speak simply. Don't use fancy words.

Speaker 1:
[16:45] Try not to use fancy words because again, you're not trying to impress the art world.

Speaker 2:
[16:50] Impress people with your vocabulary. You're trying to effectively communicate.

Speaker 1:
[16:55] Your inspiration and also where this work came from and what it's trying to grapple with. I am about to go through this right now.

Speaker 2:
[17:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[17:05] I think I can talk about this probably. I have a new book coming out.

Speaker 2:
[17:09] You have to figure out your... It is a PR strategy.

Speaker 1:
[17:12] Yeah, you have to figure out what you talk about, what you don't talk about, what you tell people the book is about, because they haven't read it, they won't be able to read it for months. You're setting up their experience of the book in some ways. When you're talking about your art, they're probably looking at your art at the same time, and you're shaping what they're seeing as you talk.

Speaker 2:
[17:35] It's a great opportunity.

Speaker 1:
[17:36] It's a huge opportunity, but that's what makes it so nerve-wracking. That's what makes you feel like a fart face.

Speaker 2:
[17:41] Right.

Speaker 1:
[17:42] To quote Rayna. Great word, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[17:45] Yeah. I think it's stressful.

Speaker 1:
[17:48] It's so stressful. I was on a walk yesterday. You were like, go take a walk because I was so stressed out that I couldn't function, because I was thinking about the book, and questions about the book, and finishing the book, and sharing the book, and what to talk about, and what not to talk about. And you were like, go take a walk. And then I was taking a walk. And as I was taking a walk, I was mumbling to myself what I will say and not say about the story. And like what I will say in the vlogbrothers video where I announce it, and what I will say in the Instagram video where I announce it. And do I talk more about celebrity, or do I talk more about the fact that we all participate in this content creation ecosystem now, and that participating in this marketplace is a way of giving over our lives and ourselves and our experiences to for-profit companies. Like I don't say that, that's like the wrong thing to say, but that's what I'm thinking about. And then I, so I just, I understand Raina's thing because I get so in my head, because it is important, because it does frame people's experiences of what you're making.

Speaker 2:
[18:49] One thing you might do, we went with our daughter, Alice, to her piano teacher held this thing called Performance Club, which was to get you ready for the recital. And she taught some breathing exercises for when you're feeling nervous, like to just put your finger on the top of your leg, and like breathe up, and move your finger towards your knee, and pause, and then bring it back down. Obviously, there's many different ways you can do that. But the other thing that I was thinking is, you could go to the space where it's going to be, and just like be there and think about it. So like you're kind of sensorily prepared to be there and to talk about your work.

Speaker 1:
[19:37] I like that. I'm not looking forward to making these videos, Sarah. That's what this is about. I'm stealing Raina's question because I don't. There's a lot about the book that I don't want to talk about at all.

Speaker 2:
[19:48] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:49] Like I don't, because I want people to go into it cold.

Speaker 2:
[19:51] Well, I don't want to make this about me, but do you remember when I was going to have a book out and I was terrified about having to go on tour and talk about the book and have public events?

Speaker 1:
[20:03] I do remember that. One thing I remember about it is that at one point, you genuinely said to me, I hope somehow this book tour just gets canceled.

Speaker 2:
[20:15] Then the pandemic did, and then Raina, I couldn't go on the book tour at all. I didn't have the opportunity to face my fear. On the one hand, I thought I'd manifested the whole pandemic.

Speaker 1:
[20:29] You did.

Speaker 2:
[20:30] But on the other hand, I was like, you know what? It would have been better for my personal growth.

Speaker 1:
[20:37] To face your fear and go on the tour.

Speaker 2:
[20:38] To face my fear and go on the tour.

Speaker 1:
[20:40] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[20:41] So.

Speaker 1:
[20:42] Yeah. Anyway, the book is called You Are An Artist, and it's still available.

Speaker 2:
[20:46] Thanks, John. Raina, good luck. I'm confident that it will go well and it will end. Okay. Next question.

Speaker 1:
[20:58] That's the most important thing is that it will end. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[21:01] Okay. This question comes from anonymous. Dear Sarah and John, I'm a current sophomore at high school. I'm at this point of the year where I need to start scheduling my classes for next year, and I'm starting to realize how scary the future is and how unprepared I am about everything. I have a big passion for writing and music, but I feel pressure to pursue something more practical and sustainable. My parents are immigrants who came to this country from working hard, but also from pursuing a job that was practical and was not there for a stream. A part of me feels guilty and selfish that I can't do the same, but there's part of me that knows I can never let go of music and art. It's just too much of what I am, and I know if I did pursue something else, I would be unhappy and unfulfilled. Please let me know what I should do. Sincerely, Anonymous.

Speaker 1:
[21:47] Anonymous, this is a difficult question, and I think that you're right to feel overwhelmed by it. That's the first thing I'd say. But I also don't want you to create mutually exclusive worlds where you only pursue music and art, or you only pursue something else. I've pursued a job as a history education YouTuber and a job as a writer. William Carlos Williams was a doctor and he was a poet. He would write poems on the back of his prescription pads. Wallace Stevens sold insurance and he wrote poetry. These things do not have to be mutually exclusive. You know the guy who writes Diary of a Wimpy Kid? He sold like a hundred million books and he never stopped working his day job.

Speaker 2:
[22:37] Really?

Speaker 1:
[22:37] Well, I think he stopped now.

Speaker 2:
[22:39] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[22:39] But it took him way too long.

Speaker 2:
[22:41] Right.

Speaker 1:
[22:43] So I think that finding ways to make music and art a part of your life and being committed to making them a part of your life, sounds like it's really important to you. Hopefully, your parents understand that. Hopefully, they understand why it's really important to you and that it's really important to you. But I also understand not necessarily wanting to make that your only career option. Now, I think it can absolutely be part of your career or it can be your whole career. But I understand, especially when you're in high school, not closing off your options.

Speaker 2:
[23:17] Right. Writing and music especially are things that you can definitely do while fulfilling your standard credits. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[23:26] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[23:27] You can use your time after school and on the weekends to pursue the things that you really love while still keeping the doors open for further education.

Speaker 1:
[23:38] That's not going to always be true, to be totally honest with you, Anonymous. There is going to come a time when you have to start making real difficult choices, but I'm not sure that time is your junior year in high school.

Speaker 2:
[23:48] I would also, something I noticed in your letter is that you don't really say that your parents are pressuring you. I wonder how much of this is coming from them or just coming from you. Both are important, but you could also talk to them about it. I mean, this is coming from a parent's perspective. But you may or may not be surprised about what they say.

Speaker 1:
[24:12] Yeah. I mean, part of the reason they may have worked so hard to give you educational opportunities is so that you can pursue what you want to pursue.

Speaker 2:
[24:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:23] You don't want to speak for your parents too soon. I was talking to my great friend. I have another podcast, The Away End, with Daniel Alarcon that we make together. My friend since high school, you're-

Speaker 2:
[24:35] Available now.

Speaker 1:
[24:36] Available now wherever you get your podcasts. He loves soccer.

Speaker 2:
[24:39] The Away End.

Speaker 1:
[24:40] There you go. Thank you for the promo, Sarah.

Speaker 2:
[24:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:42] We're promoing each other today. He was born in Peru and his parents immigrated to the United States when he was three or four. He was telling me that even though he's had a very successful career, and he's published in the New Yorker, and he's won a MacArthur Genius Grant and everything else, that his parents still wish that he was a doctor.

Speaker 2:
[25:02] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[25:05] I mean, that's sort of the cliche, but I don't think that's a universal experience.

Speaker 2:
[25:09] Well, I also feel like it's important to keep in mind that there may be career paths that seem safer to you now, but our culture, our world is changing so quickly that the jobs that were considered safe when we were young.

Speaker 1:
[25:26] Yeah, are not safe.

Speaker 2:
[25:27] Don't necessarily exist anymore. So I'm a huge proponent of the liberal arts education that teaches you how to think, to research, to express yourself, to communicate, and to adapt. So yes, you can study to be a particular thing, but there are no guarantees that you won't have to retrain yourself to do something totally different.

Speaker 1:
[25:53] Yeah, and I think music and art both can help you be that sort of creative thinker, be someone who knows how to adapt. I mean, to me, the liberal arts aren't just about teaching you how to think, they're also teaching you what to think about, what's important, what's worth valuing, what we want to prioritize as a species. And on that front, I think the so-called knowledge work of the future will probably be fairly liberal artsy. I might be wrong, God knows, I have no idea what the future looks like.

Speaker 2:
[26:30] Well, even if it's not, even if it's not, like, really interesting music and art comes, and writing is about other things. So like, so like maybe you pursue biology and end up making music informed by whale sounds or something.

Speaker 1:
[26:51] Yeah. Or our friend Stewart, who's a musician who makes music that transposes the sounds that bats make into sounds that are audible to human ears.

Speaker 2:
[27:00] And invites other musicians to accompany the transpose bat music. And like often when you're writing, like what are you writing about? Like what is your subject matter? Yeah. Pick up something that seems more practical.

Speaker 1:
[27:14] Or don't just don't exclude yourself from multiple things. Like I wrote a book about science for God's sakes. If you told me that in high school, anonymous, if you told me in high school that I would write a nonfiction book about science, about the biology of a disease, I would simply not have believed you.

Speaker 2:
[27:33] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[27:34] All right. That reminds me that today's podcast is brought to you by Everything is Tuberculosis, The Hit New Book, available wherever books are sold.

Speaker 2:
[27:41] The podcast is also brought to you by A Liberal Arts Education, An Old Idea Still Relevant.

Speaker 1:
[27:48] Today's podcast is brought to you by Reina's Art Project. Reina's Art Project, all I know about it is that it's in Chile, so check it out.

Speaker 2:
[27:55] Also, today's podcast is brought to you by Performance Art. Performance Art.

Speaker 1:
[28:00] Yeah. This episode of Dear Hank and John is brought to you by Quince. I'm having a little bit of a closet problem. I look in there and I see a lot of choices that I made, that I feel like maybe I shouldn't have made. I want fewer things, but I also want better things, pieces that are well-made and are easy to wear all the time. That's one of the things that Quince does for people. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are thoughtful, the pricing makes sense. Quince makes high-quality, everyday essentials using premium materials like 100% European linen and their insanely soft, flow-knit activewear fabric. Their men's linen pants and shirts are lightweight, breathable, and comfortable, so perfect for spring if you don't live in Montana. If you do live in Montana, like maybe late spring, early summer, more alike, these pants amazingly feel both laid-back and refined, so you look put together, but you also look maybe like you're not trying too hard. And their flow-knit activewear, moisture-wicking anti-odor, soft enough that you'll actually want to wear it all day. And the best part is that their prices are 50% to 60% less than similar brands. How do they do that? Well, Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not that brand markup. Everything is designed to last and to make getting dressed easy. And that's what we want. Look in the closet and have the choices be simple and the results be appealing. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com/dearhank for free shipping and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. Go to quince.com/dearhank for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com/dearhank.

Speaker 2:
[29:43] OK, our next question comes from Josh. Dear John and Sarah, I have discovered that I enjoy and kind of rely on receiving attention and praise.

Speaker 1:
[29:52] Oh, you and me both, Josh, you and me both.

Speaker 2:
[29:54] For instance, I always make art as though it will go in front of an audience even when it definitely won't. Anyway, while I am good at many things, none of those are the type that would get some kind of widespread attention or praise. So how should I come to terms with this? Is there better advice than the usual vague, learn to feel internally satisfied? Not too posh, Josh.

Speaker 1:
[30:18] So I used to think that the reason we made art was entirely for the audience, that like art existed to be consumed and to be shared. And the point of the creator of the art was just to subsume themselves as much as possible to the work itself because the work is all that mattered. And lately, especially in the last couple of years, as I've been working on this new project, I have felt like, oh no, like art is fun. Art is something we make because it's fun and it's interesting and it's internally rewarding. And like developing that sense of internal reward is not easy. And so when people say learn to feel internally satisfied, Josh, I understand that that feels like both vague and unhelpful. But like working toward that goal as a creator is, I think, valuable.

Speaker 2:
[31:15] Well, I think you also have to figure out those things that are fun in themselves. Like some things might not be fun in the making, but are fun to receive praise about.

Speaker 1:
[31:29] They're fun in the having made.

Speaker 2:
[31:30] It doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but like I think there's a balance in your life of things that you do that you truly enjoy doing regardless of praise. But I will say like you enjoy writing, but you also publish. So I kind of want to call you there because you do have an audience.

Speaker 1:
[31:52] Yeah, I do. And I'm really lucky too. And I understand that. But, and I don't know anyone, Josh, who doesn't want outside affirmation.

Speaker 2:
[32:00] That's true.

Speaker 1:
[32:01] All humans want to be, as the great film Penguins of Madagascar put it, valued members of the group. We all want to be just like private dozen Penguins of Madagascar, a valued member of the team.

Speaker 2:
[32:17] Right. So I will, I'm curious how old Josh is.

Speaker 1:
[32:22] I'm guessing mid 20s.

Speaker 2:
[32:24] Because this is like the way that school is set up for most people. It gives you many opportunities, if not for praise, for evaluation.

Speaker 1:
[32:35] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[32:36] And I remember for me, as somebody who really loved checking boxes and getting good grades, that there was a big fall off after school, where I didn't have that anymore. But then I did go into a field where I was putting out art shows, or making things. And I do think that if you know this about yourself, Josh, you may use that to direct your activities a little bit. Right. To know that you need validation. It's not all evil.

Speaker 1:
[33:08] Yeah. There's nothing inherently evil about needing validation. And you say very summarily that the kind of work you do will never receive any praise, but I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Lots of, you might be surprised if you put yourself out there and continue to work. The other thing that I would say is that you're right, Sarah, that I enjoy, and I think most people enjoy having written more than they enjoy writing, to borrow a line from, I think, Susan Sontag. But it's also true that people enjoy getting better at stuff. We enjoy improving and learning and figuring things out, and developing new tools and strategies for creating art.

Speaker 2:
[33:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:50] There's fulfillment in that. I think that's part of what we mean when we say, be internally satisfied, is like find pleasure in getting better or figuring out new strategies or moving forward through a practice.

Speaker 2:
[34:04] Well, and that's why I really enjoyed learning how to wheel through pottery.

Speaker 1:
[34:09] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[34:10] Because I was so, it's hard.

Speaker 1:
[34:12] Right.

Speaker 2:
[34:12] And I was so bad at it, but like it was a good exercise in learning to feel internally satisfied because there was nothing else.

Speaker 1:
[34:22] Right.

Speaker 2:
[34:24] And sure, like yes, it's great when you start to get better, you make a cup and somebody likes the cup, you make a cup that you can actually use, you can give somebody a bowl. I think that knowing that you want some praise and validation is powerful information that you can use. And it doesn't have to be for your career necessarily. It can be in your personal life.

Speaker 1:
[34:47] Right.

Speaker 2:
[34:47] You can start making your friends dinner every Thursday night and inviting them over. And I guarantee you praise.

Speaker 1:
[34:55] Yeah. And you can play your own music in the background. And maybe they'll be like, oh, it's pretty good music.

Speaker 2:
[35:00] Don't do that.

Speaker 1:
[35:01] That's mine.

Speaker 2:
[35:01] That's me. Don't do that.

Speaker 1:
[35:04] All right. We got another question from Kate who writes, Dear John and Sarah, how does a person get real art, the kind that makes you think and gives happy home feelings, not the kind that yells that you shop at IKEA? Kate, we get questions like this all the time, and this is a huge problem. This is a huge problem for people. Like, how do you get art that doesn't cost thousands of dollars, that you want to display in your home, that is unique and personal and feels like a human being made it?

Speaker 2:
[35:33] Okay, I have kind of a controversial answer here.

Speaker 1:
[35:36] Okay, I have an answer that I don't think is controversial, so give me your controversial answer.

Speaker 2:
[35:40] You gotta get out of the house. Like, yes, you can buy a lot of great art online, but if you want art that you have a personal connection with, Yeah, you gotta get out of the house. You gotta get out of the house. You gotta go look around. You gotta go to that art fair. You gotta go to the student art show at your local school.

Speaker 1:
[36:00] That's what I was gonna say. Student art shows at local colleges have so much good art.

Speaker 2:
[36:06] Or wherever you are. You can find good art online, but it's just developing that connection to it.

Speaker 1:
[36:15] Yeah, it's harder. I mean, you can find it online, but it's harder. There are a lot of great artists who don't show their work at galleries, who only show their work on Instagram, that's how they get discovered. And I don't want to take anything away from them. But I personally, and maybe this is a thing where Sarah and I are middle-aged, but I personally just find it harder to connect with art on screen than I do with connecting with art in person, especially if I can meet the artist and know something about them and their work process.

Speaker 2:
[36:42] Definitely. But that often for me comes where I start following artists online, then maybe once a year they'll have a sale. Then you jump on that opportunity. The inconvenient truth here is that it has to be a side gig for you. It has to be a hobby. You have to start looking out for it. You know what you could do? You could go to an antique market, an antique store, or a thrift shop and look for handmade things there. I know when you go to thrift shops, there's a lot of IKEA art in there sometimes. But you have to try a little bit. The thing is, when you put art in your home, it's also a record of how you got it.

Speaker 1:
[37:29] Right. Part of the story is when and where you bought it. We have this painting of what the night sky will look like on January 1st, 2100 looking out over Lake Michigan from the city of Chicago. Of course, I will not live to see this night sky, barring some real impressive advances in longevity science. But I still get to see it in this painting, and it makes me so happy, and it wasn't very expensive. It's just got a good story to it. And when I look at it, I think about the story of how we first saw it and where we were and the fact that we were together. I think about lots of things other than just the night sky in Chicago in the year 2100.

Speaker 2:
[38:09] Another thing is that I knew somebody once who had a collection of paintings of poorly painted hands. Hands are notoriously difficult to render realistically for less experienced artists. So they made a habit of every time they'd go into a thrift store or an antique mall or something like that, they'd look for badly drawn hands. Obviously, you can do trees. So even if it's not an amazing artwork in itself, you have a collection of paintings of barns or something, maybe it's cool together.

Speaker 1:
[38:49] It starts to look cool together.

Speaker 2:
[38:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[38:50] I think Sarah is right. I almost just called you Alice.

Speaker 2:
[38:53] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:
[38:54] I think Sarah is right that you have to make it a side hustle, but it's a really fun side hustle, and you don't need to be spending thousands of dollars to get cool art.

Speaker 2:
[39:03] No.

Speaker 1:
[39:03] So I think it's a fun side hustle. All right. Before we get to the all-important news section of the podcast, Sarah, we need to read this question from Natalie. Natalie is Swedish, which, no bragging, Natalie.

Speaker 2:
[39:13] I know. I'm jealous.

Speaker 1:
[39:15] Natalie says, Dear John and Sarah, I'm a new mother of a five-month-old, and I'm desperately in need of help getting out of a creative rut. Oh, boy. I mean, you are in the thick of it, Natalie. The thick of it. While I know I have to have grace with myself for raising a new little human, you do. As someone who's had a thriving art practice for nearly 20 years, not creating feels deeply unfamiliar. We live in Sweden, so I am fortunate to have a lengthy parental leave. Natalie, I said earlier, no bragging. I want to use this time to mark this transformative period. Creating has always been integral to my identity, but my art making has declined dramatically over the last year. Now, I feel ready to create again, but unsure where to start, especially since my preferred medium, oil paint, isn't very baby-friendly. As lifelong creatives, how do you pull yourselves out of a rut and return to your practice, and how did you balance creativity and parenting when you were new parents? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Toxa janma miket.

Speaker 2:
[40:10] Oh, boy.

Speaker 1:
[40:11] Pumpkins and penguins, Natalie. I did a great job pronouncing Swedish as usual.

Speaker 2:
[40:15] I'm so sorry about that. This is a really great question, and I think as an artist, you're familiar with the power and potential of constraints, because you've got some real constraints now on your time, mainly on your sleep, on your bandwidth. And I know for me, during my first maternity leave, I had to write an essay for an exhibition catalog.

Speaker 1:
[40:49] Yeah, about getting to Warhol.

Speaker 2:
[40:50] Yeah. It was due, I think, the day after I got back from maternity leave, and I just could not freaking do it. I would go, I would clear time, I would be like, okay, John, I need six hours at a coffee shop, you know, and I would get there, and I would sort of space out for the first hour.

Speaker 1:
[41:14] Yeah, because it's so hard.

Speaker 2:
[41:16] I would arrange the quotes that I was going to use for the next hour. It was so hard to do the thing that wasn't hard for me before. And it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't sort of making art, it was something else, but it was something that I didn't have trouble doing before, that I did then. And, you know, like I wrote it, what I actually ended up doing is I wrote a terrible essay, had my mentor read it. She told me kindly that it was terrible. And I had to like claw my way to a better piece. I haven't reread it. I don't really want to.

Speaker 1:
[41:54] I haven't read it in a while either.

Speaker 2:
[41:55] Yeah, so, you know, I found my way through it and I did it. But like, I think if you have the flexibility to adapt in this moment, to change your work, to like do a kind of parallel practice of something else, something that doesn't take maybe as long to set up and get going as oil painting, maybe you try watercolors, you know, like maybe you try collage, maybe you just do something totally different that maybe you've been curious about for a while that kind of gives you permission to explore a new path because you know what you what your bandwidth is, you know that it's limited and I think it's a great opportunity. And then like whatever you do, maybe it will inform it when you go back to oil painting or maybe it won't.

Speaker 1:
[42:51] Yeah, the other thing I'd say is just don't put pressure on yourself to do anything all at once because it's so hard to be raising.

Speaker 2:
[42:59] What do you mean all at once?

Speaker 1:
[43:00] Well, like turn creativity back on like a light switch.

Speaker 2:
[43:04] Right.

Speaker 1:
[43:04] You know, it's much more of a spectrum than it is a dichotomy. And so your creative production doesn't have to go back to what it was before you had a baby right away. I know mine didn't. You know, I mean, I went from publishing a book every two years to publishing a book every five years. And there were a lot of reasons for that. But parenthood was an important one. And I have no regrets about that because like what a fascinating experience parenthood was. And I think it enriched. I mean, aside from the fact that I love my kids, I also think it enriched my work. I think it enriched your work. And so I think you need to think of moving on the spectrum back toward creative production rather than thinking of it as a switch you flip to become creative.

Speaker 2:
[43:49] And maybe this is a season where when you do have time, you're thinking about inputs rather than outputs. Maybe you go see some art instead of make art. Maybe you take walks. Maybe you listen to something. Maybe it's not so much about getting back to generating work as it is doing whatever you need to help you get back to a place where you are genuinely inspired to make stuff.

Speaker 1:
[44:20] All right, Sarah, it's time for the all-important news section of the podcast.

Speaker 2:
[44:23] Oh, news, uh-oh.

Speaker 1:
[44:24] I'm gonna share some news from AFC Wimbledon and then you'll share some of your own news. I don't know what kind of news you're gonna share, but the news from AFC Wimbledon is twofold. Everyone knows that the AFC Wimbledon men's team has had a surprisingly good season in the third tier of English football.

Speaker 2:
[44:37] Can I summarize it?

Speaker 1:
[44:38] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[44:39] Okay, it started out great.

Speaker 1:
[44:40] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[44:41] It got really bad.

Speaker 1:
[44:42] Real bad.

Speaker 2:
[44:42] Now it's better.

Speaker 1:
[44:43] Now it's better again. That's exactly the perfect summary. It was amazing. It was terrible.

Speaker 2:
[44:48] But we're not totally safe yet.

Speaker 1:
[44:50] It's pretty good now. The women's team has had a really difficult season in the third tier of English soccer as well, flirting with relegation all season. But in one of the knockout cup competitions, they've just beaten Brentford, a Premier League side on the men's side, very well-funded side. They beat Brentford 4-3 and have made their way to the semi-finals of the capital cup, which is a cup involving all the teams that play in London. So the women's team, despite real hardships in the league, have been making big strides in the cup competition, which is awesome to see. So that's the news from Wimbledon. What's your news?

Speaker 2:
[45:24] Well, I decided I definitely am not qualified to share news from Mars.

Speaker 1:
[45:29] Me neither.

Speaker 2:
[45:30] But I thought I might share some art market news.

Speaker 1:
[45:32] Oh, okay. Give me the art market news.

Speaker 2:
[45:34] So the last two years in the art market have been bad. Like there's been a big decline, okay?

Speaker 1:
[45:40] I feel like people are always spending millions of dollars on art sales.

Speaker 2:
[45:43] Oh, they are. Oh, they are. They are. Just fewer people. Yeah. But the, I guess, good news is that global art sales did grow in 2025.

Speaker 1:
[45:52] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[45:53] There had been two years of decline, but we've grown modestly. People are still pretty uncertain about the economy because of the global situation. But interestingly, so it's still quite high. $59.6 billion.

Speaker 1:
[46:10] Billion.

Speaker 2:
[46:11] Billion.

Speaker 1:
[46:11] With a B.

Speaker 2:
[46:12] With a B. A lot of people invest in art. It's wild, but that's not the all-time peak. Okay. The all-time peak. Guess what year?

Speaker 1:
[46:20] 2019.

Speaker 2:
[46:22] 2014.

Speaker 1:
[46:23] Oh, really? Yes.

Speaker 2:
[46:25] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[46:26] I would have thought it would be right before the pandemic.

Speaker 2:
[46:28] The big ticket transactions in the world of art auction sales last year. Do you know who made the biggest selling artwork?

Speaker 1:
[46:39] I'm going to guess Gustav Klimt.

Speaker 2:
[46:41] Oh, you saw it.

Speaker 1:
[46:42] I didn't.

Speaker 2:
[46:43] Oh, you got it.

Speaker 1:
[46:44] No.

Speaker 2:
[46:44] Yeah. Klimt's portrait.

Speaker 1:
[46:46] Rich people love Klimt.

Speaker 2:
[46:49] Yeah. Well, it's gold.

Speaker 1:
[46:50] I know. They love gold.

Speaker 2:
[46:53] Rich people love gold.

Speaker 1:
[46:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[46:55] Okay. So that Klimt painting from 1916 sold for $236 million.

Speaker 1:
[47:01] That is unreasonable.

Speaker 2:
[47:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:03] No one respectfully. I don't want to disrespect your work, but no one should spend that much money on a work of art.

Speaker 2:
[47:09] I know. I know. And art dealers had a slightly improved business.

Speaker 1:
[47:15] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[47:16] The middle of the art market, like the middle tier galleries, they did not experience any growth, but the lower end and the higher end had a bit of an uptick.

Speaker 1:
[47:26] It's good that the lower end is growing.

Speaker 2:
[47:27] So I thought I'd share this news that is relevant, not to me, nor to you.

Speaker 1:
[47:33] Not really.

Speaker 2:
[47:34] Nor to almost all people in the world.

Speaker 1:
[47:38] But if there is one listener who found themselves thinking, God, I had $237 million to spend on a Klimp training. Reach out, because have we got a hospital in Sierra Leone debt that you can fund?

Speaker 2:
[47:50] We sure do. And sometimes I like thinking about the art world, or not the art world, because the art market is in the news a lot.

Speaker 1:
[48:00] But it's not the art world.

Speaker 2:
[48:01] But it is not the art world.

Speaker 1:
[48:02] No.

Speaker 2:
[48:03] It is not. It does have some trickle down effect, but it's very modest and it's mostly just rich people trading stuff, moving the pile of money around.

Speaker 1:
[48:12] Yeah. Well, on that note, thank you so much, Sarah, for co-hosting this episode of Dear Sarah and John. It's been an absolute joy to spend this hour with you. Dear Hank and John is edited by Bridget Kenison. We're mixed by Andrew Smith. Our marketing specialist is Brooke Shotwell. We're produced by Rosianna Hoss-Rohas and Hannah West. Our executive producer is Seth Radley. The editorial assistant is Deboki Chakravarti. And the music you're hearing now in the beginning of the podcast is by The Great Gunnarolla. As they say in our hometown, Don't forget to be awesome.