transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to An Old Timey Podcast. I'm Norman Caruso.

Speaker 2:
[00:06] And I'm Kristen Caruso.

Speaker 1:
[00:07] And on this episode, I'll be talking about the time Universal sued Nintendo. Woo, woo!

Speaker 2:
[00:14] I'm excited.

Speaker 1:
[00:16] Are you excited because this is episode 100, Kristen?

Speaker 2:
[00:19] Well, yes to that, but also, I love a lawsuit, I love conflict, I love drama. Also, no one dies in this story. It's kind of the perfect thing.

Speaker 1:
[00:28] Right, right, nobody does. Kind of low stakes in the grand scheme of things.

Speaker 2:
[00:33] No, the highest stakes. Come on, build this episode up.

Speaker 1:
[00:36] It's fun, it's fun. And you are going to be so mad, so mad.

Speaker 2:
[00:41] Really?

Speaker 1:
[00:41] At certain people.

Speaker 2:
[00:43] I love judging, so I guess I'll do it. Speaking of judging, folks, I'm doing the bonus episode on Patreon this month. Do I have anything written down? Have I done any research yet? No, no, to the no, no, no, but do I have a topic? Oh yes, indeedily, I do.

Speaker 1:
[01:03] Aren't we recording in like three days?

Speaker 2:
[01:05] Don't worry about it. The passion will fuel me for this.

Speaker 1:
[01:09] Okay, okay.

Speaker 2:
[01:10] Folks, let me tell you a brief story. The other day, I met my friend Kitty at our local Panera Bread.

Speaker 1:
[01:19] Ooh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[01:19] And...

Speaker 1:
[01:21] Did you get the You Pick Too?

Speaker 2:
[01:23] No, Norman. Let me tell you what happened.

Speaker 1:
[01:25] It doesn't exist anymore? I haven't been to Panera in a long time.

Speaker 2:
[01:27] No, no. There's a reason you haven't been to Panera in a long time. Folks, in news that will surprise absolutely no one who has eaten at a Panera Bread in the last 15 to 20 years, I must tell you that the food not only sucked, it was also very expensive. And I afterward got on my front porch on my rocking chair and I shook my cane and I went on at length about how Panera Bread used to be good. I swear to it, now it was a long time ago. I was in high school, but it used to be good. And then the algorithm fed me something beautiful. It was a video about why Panera used to be great and why it sucks now. And so you know what I'm doing for the bonus episode this month? Everyone, hurry up, sign up on Patreon. I'm doing the rise and fall of Panera bread. I'm coming for their asses.

Speaker 1:
[02:21] For real?

Speaker 2:
[02:21] Well, I'd better. I don't have any other ideas.

Speaker 1:
[02:24] No, I am curious.

Speaker 2:
[02:26] It's embarrassing how passionate I am.

Speaker 1:
[02:28] I'm guessing some private equity.

Speaker 2:
[02:32] Don't get, well, Norm, you're not far off already.

Speaker 1:
[02:35] It's usually how the ensuitification starts of a business.

Speaker 2:
[02:39] patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. Sign up at the $5 level or higher to get access to that fabulous bonus episode that I have not done yet, but I will indeedily do.

Speaker 1:
[02:53] Here's another reason you should support us on Patreon.

Speaker 2:
[02:55] Why?

Speaker 1:
[02:56] We are not owned by private equity. We are a small, sexy, independent podcast and you, the people, support us. So thank you.

Speaker 2:
[03:04] Thank you. And now it's time for an ad. Got frizz? I know I did, but what I didn't know was that my pillowcase was part of the problem. That's why I switched to Blissy Silk Pillowcases. Blissy Silk Pillowcases give you better hair in days. We're talking reduced frizz and less breakage, and it'll help preserve your style. Blissy uses the highest quality, 100 percent pure mulberry silk, and it's fully machine washable. Now I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, meh, I can settle for satin. It'll probably give me the same results. You couldn't be more wrong. Take it from me. Silk is better than satin. Silk is natural. It's cooling and it's gentler on skin and hair. But don't take my word for it. Blissy has been featured in places very comparable in size and influence to an old timey podcast. We're talking Vogue, Oprah Daily, Good Morning America. All of our peers are talking about Blissy. And because you're a listener, Blissy is offering 60 nights risk free, plus an additional 30% off when you shop at blissy.com/otp. That's blissy, blissy.com/otp, and use code OTP to get an additional 30% off. Your skin and hair will thank you. And now we're back from the ad. Doodaloo! Doodaloo. Hello, robot man.

Speaker 1:
[04:37] Imagine if we had a robot that transitioned us into the ads.

Speaker 2:
[04:41] Would that be the robot's only function?

Speaker 1:
[04:43] It's only job.

Speaker 2:
[04:44] Waste of money, I say.

Speaker 1:
[04:46] Until it starts to feel emotions, and then we have to kill it.

Speaker 2:
[04:50] Oh, or, okay.

Speaker 1:
[04:53] It got real dark. Kristen?

Speaker 2:
[04:55] Yes?

Speaker 1:
[04:56] Are you ready to hear about the time Universal Studios sued Nintendo of America?

Speaker 2:
[05:00] Yeah, I frankly thought I was hearing about this last week, but then you cut me off short, buddy. I've been on this cliffhanger all week, and I am ready.

Speaker 1:
[05:08] She's been holding in her pee ever since.

Speaker 2:
[05:11] Why can't I pee? Okay.

Speaker 1:
[05:14] But first, we have to recap the last episode. Previously on An Old Timey Podcast. We learned that in the winter of 1980, a small video game company called Nintendo of America was going all in on a brand new game, a space shooter called RadarScope. But RadarScope was a dud. Out of an initial order of 3000 cabinets, Nintendo of America had about 2000 left. They were sitting in a warehouse collecting dust. Company president Minoru Arakawa asked his father-in-law, Nintendo of Japan president Hiroshi Yamauchi, if they could get a new game to replace those RadarScope machines. So Yamauchi put his best man on the job, an engineer named Gunpei Yokoi. Yokoi was a busy guy. He didn't really have time to work on this new game. But luckily he had a young, eager designer who wanted to take charge, Shigeru Miyamoto. At first, Nintendo planned to make a Popeye arcade game. But due to technological limitations, Popeye, Bluto, and OliveOil didn't look quite right on the screen. They would have to come up with new characters. So Miyamoto, a designer, got to work. He replaced the big buff boy Bluto with the gorilla. OliveOil became a generic blonde woman in a pink dress, later known as Pauline. And finally, Popeye became a little mustache carpenter with a big nose, red overalls, a blue shirt, and a hat. Nintendo originally dubbed him Jumpman. You may know him as Mario. When it came to a name for this new game, the team wanted something funny and comical. It also had to use the word Kong. Kong was fun to say, and it just sounded better than gorilla. Kong, Kong, Kong, Kong, Kong, Kong, Kong, Kong, Kong, Kong. And Nintendo eventually settled on the name Donkey Kong. But when arcade distributors in North America heard that name, they were not thrilled. They were like, excuse me, did you say Donkey Dong? I can't sell that game. But those fears proved to be unwarranted because Donkey Kong was a smash hit. The arcade platforming game featured addictive gameplay and fun characters. In its first year on the market, Nintendo increased their sales by more than $100 million. Other companies licensed Donkey Kong to cash in on the craze. There was a Donkey Kong board game, a Saturday morning cartoon, t-shirts, mugs, plush dolls, and more. Several video game companies wanted to bring the arcade action to living rooms across the country. Video game giant Atari secured the home computer rights to the game. Toy company Coleco got the video game cartridge rights. But then there were some companies who thought, maybe it would be cheaper to just make a copycat version of Donkey Kong. That's what Tiger Electronics wanted to do, and their new game would feature another famous gorilla, King Kong. So Tiger Electronics got the rights from the company they thought owned King Kong, media giant Universal Studios. Universal was suspicious. No one had really wanted to license King Kong, but now they were getting requests left and right. Eventually they discovered why. This new hit arcade game called Donkey Kong and the higher ups at Universal, including Universal president Sid Sheinberg, thought that maybe Nintendo had ripped off King Kong. On this week's episode, Universal sues Nintendo of America. Kristen, are you ready to get deep into the halls of justice?

Speaker 2:
[08:39] I am. I'm ready to go into the courthouse, as they say.

Speaker 1:
[08:44] I'm just realizing, I didn't write down Let's Go To Court in this script.

Speaker 2:
[08:48] What the hell? You have to look yourself in the mirror and say, Let's Go To Court!

Speaker 1:
[08:52] All right, we'll do it. We'll improv it. This is what improv is all about.

Speaker 2:
[08:56] Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1:
[08:57] All right, so on our last episode, Universal president Sid Sheinberg made vice president Robert Haddle go check out Donkey Kong in an arcade. And Robert Haddle played the game and he told Sid Sheinberg, Yeah, I think we have a case here. You know, this is a game about a giant gorilla kidnapping a woman. He scales a large construction site. It has Kong in the title. They're clearly ripping off King Kong. So Sid Sheinberg grinned from ear to ear, like the Grinch.

Speaker 2:
[09:26] Oh, come on. I think they kind of have a point. I really don't know that I'm going to have the same take that you think I'm going to.

Speaker 1:
[09:34] Kristen, wait till you hear more context.

Speaker 2:
[09:38] Just do it. All right, just right now. I'm like, yeah, that does kind of sound a little King Kong-ish.

Speaker 1:
[09:44] Sounds a little Kinky Kong-ish.

Speaker 2:
[09:48] Don't bring your weird sex stuff into this.

Speaker 1:
[09:51] Nintendo free idea, Kinky Kong.

Speaker 2:
[09:55] God, imagine the fandom for that. My God, you think the Sonic fans are weird?

Speaker 1:
[10:01] Joe, if you could please draw what you think Kinky Kong would look like on the screen. Thank you very much. It's just a big blurred image with a gorilla's head. So Sid Sheinberg saw two major opportunities with this situation. Number one, Universal could throw around their weight and assert their alleged King Kong rights and make some money. And number two, Universal could use this opportunity to get into the video game industry. It's something Sid Sheinberg had wanted to do for the past couple of years. And the timing could not have been better, because Universal had an upcoming meeting with toy company, Coleco. Coleco was a toy and video game company based out of Connecticut, which, as we all know, is a state where we expect great things from its people.

Speaker 2:
[10:51] Classy people only in Connecticut.

Speaker 1:
[10:52] That's right. And earlier, I mentioned that Coleco had secured the home video game cartridge rights for Donkey Kong. Well, at the same time, Coleco had been talking with Universal, because Coleco wanted to license some Universal properties for video games. So they wanted to make a Jaws video game. They wanted to make a Smokey and the Bandit video game. And in turn, Universal was interested in possibly investing in Coleco. But with this newfound knowledge about Donkey Kong, Sid Sheinberg decided to set a trap.

Speaker 2:
[11:28] Oh, I love traps. Let's hear it.

Speaker 1:
[11:31] The two companies met on April 27th, 1982. Coleco president Arnold Greenberg expected to have a pretty routine sit-down with Universal president Sid Sheinberg. Greenberg was excited to share Coleco's brand new video game console, the ColecoVision. It was way better than that old boring Atari 2600. And check this out. Every console comes with a free pack-in game, Donkey Kong.

Speaker 2:
[11:58] Hell yeah!

Speaker 1:
[11:59] The hottest game in the arcades right now. But Sid Sheinberg seemed unimpressed.

Speaker 2:
[12:06] Boring. Why was he unimpressed?

Speaker 1:
[12:10] Sheinberg said, well, you know, we might have a problem with that Donkey Kong game you're putting out, because it's quite similar to one of our intellectual properties, King Kong. Arnold Greenberg was stunned. He recalled that he was, quote, extremely surprised by Sid Sheinberg's comments. For one, Greenberg had no clue Universal even owned King Kong. And two, Donkey Kong had been on the market for almost a full year now, and he had never heard of any talk about it being a ripoff of King Kong. Sid Sheinberg continued. He was like, look, until we get this Donkey Kong situation settled, we have nothing further to discuss. Oh. Greenberg was now panicking a little bit. He was really excited about a potential Universal investment in his company, but this threatened to blow it all up. He assured Sheinberg that his legal team would look into this as soon as possible. But Sid Sheinberg gave them little time to do that. Because the very next day, on April 28th, 1982, Universal sent a cease and desist to both Coleco and Nintendo. In it, Universal said they were, quote, the sole and exclusive owner of all rights in and to the name, title, character and story of King Kong. That Donkey Kong infringed on those rights and demanded that all marketing of Donkey Kong cease.

Speaker 2:
[13:35] Good grief.

Speaker 1:
[13:37] You still on Universal's side, Kristen?

Speaker 2:
[13:39] Well, okay, I really want to know more. You keep acting a little shady about whether they actually own the rights to King Kong. Which I think is kind of like step one in this lawsuit.

Speaker 1:
[13:51] You would think, right?

Speaker 2:
[13:53] Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[13:55] Nintendo of America president, Minoru Arakawa, was pretty alarmed by that cease and desist. I mean, Universal was a media giant, one of the biggest in the world. Nintendo of America, not so much. Donkey Kong had brought them success, but now they could potentially have to stop selling their game and turn over all of their profits to Universal. I mean, that would be detrimental to their business.

Speaker 2:
[14:20] I would say so.

Speaker 1:
[14:22] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[14:22] It would be detrimental.

Speaker 1:
[14:24] This would be bad. This game that's made us $100 million.

Speaker 2:
[14:29] That saved us after we oops fudge striped our pants with that other game. Yeah, it'd be a little bad for us.

Speaker 1:
[14:35] Just a little bad. Well, also, why didn't this issue come up at all when Nintendo applied for trademarks and copyrights? Which, by the way, those were all approved.

Speaker 2:
[14:46] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[14:47] So Minoru Arakawa called the lawyer who had set up all of those trademarks and copyrights, a man named Howard Lincoln. Howard Lincoln was an experienced lawyer. He had previously served in the Navy's JAG Corps before starting a private practice in Seattle, Washington.

Speaker 2:
[15:02] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[15:03] Lincoln was able to calm Arakawa down a little bit. He told him, you know, this wasn't unusual, especially with successful products like Donkey Kong. You know, the big guys are always trying to get a piece of the pie. Plus, this was just proof that Nintendo had hit the big time. You know what they say, Kristen.

Speaker 2:
[15:25] Norm, the number of times you have had to say that to me after I've read something mean about myself online.

Speaker 1:
[15:34] Words to live by. So yeah, Howard Lincoln wasn't too concerned. He was more suspicious than anything. Again, nothing came up during the trademark and copyright process. The game had been out for almost a year now. Why now? What?

Speaker 2:
[15:49] What?

Speaker 1:
[15:50] What do you, what do you look at the camera for?

Speaker 2:
[15:52] I'm just making faces at the people. They know why.

Speaker 1:
[15:56] What?

Speaker 2:
[15:56] Give me a break. Howard Lincoln wasn't worried, wasn't concerned about being sued by Universal Studios bullshit. This is tough guy lawyer talk, Norm. He has to be a big boy, cool as a cucumber with Nintendo of America. Don't make that face at me.

Speaker 1:
[16:13] It's just a cease and desist.

Speaker 2:
[16:16] Norman, he was crapping his trousers, and they were nice trousers because he's a big deal attorney, but he was crapping them, I guarantee it.

Speaker 1:
[16:24] Members only trousers.

Speaker 2:
[16:26] They made jackets only.

Speaker 1:
[16:29] For Howard Lincoln, they made him some trousers. That's how big of a deal he was. Maybe he did think it was a big deal, but he calmed his client down.

Speaker 2:
[16:39] Exactly. Yes, we understand what was really going on.

Speaker 1:
[16:42] Yeah. Howard Lincoln was like, hey, Donkey Kong's been out for almost a year now. Why now all of a sudden is Universal taking issue with this?

Speaker 2:
[16:49] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[16:50] So Lincoln did his due diligence, and what he discovered made him even more suspicious, Kristen. No company, including Universal, had exclusive rights to the words King Kong or Kong. No one.

Speaker 2:
[17:04] Oh, Universal, you better back off, buddy.

Speaker 1:
[17:08] In fact, multiple companies, including a shoe company, a fireworks company, a perfume company, they had all used the words King Kong or Kong in their respective products without any issues.

Speaker 2:
[17:21] A perfume company did?

Speaker 1:
[17:23] Yeah, I have to look that up.

Speaker 2:
[17:25] We can't figure out why this thing isn't flying off the shelves.

Speaker 1:
[17:28] It was some French thing. Kong. Perfume de Kong.

Speaker 2:
[17:32] Even when you say it like that, it doesn't sound classy.

Speaker 1:
[17:35] My favorite was a shoe company. They had a product called King Thong. I guess that was an old timey word for sandals. Thongs.

Speaker 2:
[17:43] No, I know this because my grandma once said, hang on, your grandpa has to get his thongs on.

Speaker 1:
[17:53] Really?

Speaker 2:
[17:55] Never been more disturbed.

Speaker 1:
[17:57] So yeah, Nintendo is finding some evidence that this is real suspicious.

Speaker 2:
[18:02] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[18:02] Meanwhile, on the opposite end of the spectrum, Coleco executives were like, Ah, oh my god, our ColecoVision console is about to come out. We've got thousands of pre-orders already. A lawsuit could severely delay or outright destroy our marketing plans.

Speaker 2:
[18:19] It would be detrimental.

Speaker 1:
[18:21] And so Coleco lawyers did what they thought was best. Zero, zero, zero, zero! Coleco and Universal struck a deal. Universal would receive a 3% royalty on every Donkey Kong cartridge sold. That may not seem like much, but it adds up.

Speaker 2:
[18:40] Thank you. You know, folks, we played trivia last week with our patrons. We played, Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader? That was this month's theme. And if you're wondering if I am smarter than a fifth grader, the answer is no, because of math problems. So I do imagine 3% of this is a lot.

Speaker 1:
[18:58] Kristen, 3% of $100.

Speaker 2:
[19:00] Shut up. Shut up. $3.

Speaker 1:
[19:03] 3% of $50.

Speaker 2:
[19:04] Leave me alone. Leave me alone. $1.50. Leave me alone, damn it. OK, so they both sets of attorneys, we know in our hearts, crap their pants when they got these cease and desist. But Coleco had to make a deal quickly because they had all this stuff on the line.

Speaker 1:
[19:22] Yeah, they were kind of...

Speaker 2:
[19:22] Nintendo had more time.

Speaker 1:
[19:24] Right. Coleco was kind of on a time crunch.

Speaker 2:
[19:26] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:27] Plus, they were potentially going to work with Universal in the future on some products, so they didn't want to blow that up. So yeah, they felt kind of pressure to settle. So in addition, Universal added a stipulation to that royalty agreement. You ready for this?

Speaker 2:
[19:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:45] If Coleco could convince Nintendo to settle...

Speaker 2:
[19:49] Oh, shut up.

Speaker 1:
[19:50] Universal would decrease the royalty percentage owed to like 2%. What do you think of that?

Speaker 2:
[19:58] I think that kind of sucks, and it feels gross to me. I guess, I suppose that's...

Speaker 1:
[20:02] Are these foolish games tearing you apart?

Speaker 2:
[20:06] Tearing me? Don't make me sing, Norman, even though they all want it.

Speaker 1:
[20:11] Right.

Speaker 2:
[20:12] Yeah, that feels gross to me.

Speaker 1:
[20:15] You know, it must be nice to collect money for a product you had no hand in creating and don't own in any way, shape or form.

Speaker 2:
[20:22] Yeah, I mean, this is why... Gosh, it just shows how dangerous power can be.

Speaker 1:
[20:28] What do you mean? Explain.

Speaker 2:
[20:29] Well, the only reason they caved is because Universal is so powerful and it just makes you wonder how many other times a day do little guys cave just because the big guy has more power, has more money, has more influence. The big guy might not even have a case, might not even have a leg to stand on, might not even have a King to Kong on, and yet we give them 3% every time.

Speaker 1:
[20:55] That's right. We're not going to let that happen to us though, Kristen, a small, sexy, independent podcast.

Speaker 2:
[21:01] No, but that's because of you. It seems like something I would fall for.

Speaker 1:
[21:06] Wow. We get a fake letter in the mail that's like, you're being sued, but if you pay us $300, we'll make it go away.

Speaker 2:
[21:15] Honestly, I would get that and be like, that seems like a bargain. Okay. I shouldn't reveal this about myself. We'll be getting letters left, right and center.

Speaker 1:
[21:22] But folks, Universal's dirty little secret agreement with Coleco ran into a big, big problem. Kristen, do you want to take a guess? What could possibly hold up a deal with Coleco on the home cartridge version of Donkey Kong?

Speaker 2:
[21:37] Wait, say it again.

Speaker 1:
[21:38] So, Universal set up this dirty little secret agreement with Coleco, but Universal realized, oh shit, there's something standing in our way. We talked about it in part one. What is holding up that deal with Coleco?

Speaker 2:
[21:55] We talked about it in part one. I don't know. What is it?

Speaker 1:
[21:59] It was the licensing agreement with Tiger Electronics, who were making that King Kong game. So if you recall from our last episode, Universal had granted Tiger Electronics an exclusive licensing agreement for a King Kong home video game cartridge.

Speaker 2:
[22:20] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:20] Exclusive.

Speaker 2:
[22:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:22] So Universal could not make any deal with Coleco over King Kong rights if they had already promised those rights to Tiger. So Vice President Robert Haddle discovered this, and he was like, What the?

Speaker 2:
[22:37] What the? Yeah. I mean, they screwed themselves.

Speaker 1:
[22:41] So Robert Haddle had no idea this deal had been made. So he called Universal's Merchandising Department, and he demanded to know why that deal with Tiger was made in the first place. He was like, that is a lousy deal. We're not going to make any money from it. And it's holding up a major deal with Coleco. Well, Universal's merchandising lawyers explained the situation. They're like, look, at that time, we were shocked. Anyone wanted to license King Kong. We were thrilled. So of course, the deal was pretty cheap.

Speaker 2:
[23:12] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:13] But if you want to get out of this, here's the good news. We're like 99% sure Tiger Electronics is just ripping off Donkey Kong. So as soon as we get definitive proof of that, we'll just make the contract null and void.

Speaker 2:
[23:27] Yeah, we can be all high and mighty. Oh, we had no idea you were just going to rip them off.

Speaker 1:
[23:32] Exactly. So on May 4th, 1982, Universal Lawyers sent Tiger Electronics a message that read in part, quote, It is over seven months since commencement of our agreement. To date, we have received nothing from you, neither packaging, advertising, nor game proposals or prototypes for our prior written approval as required by our contract. Universal demanded some material or quote, we will be forced to terminate our agreement. So basically, Universal's like, go ahead and show us the proof that you're ripping off Donkey Kong, and then we can cancel this contract. Tiger President Randy Rissman was like, hey, whoa, what's with the sudden demands for artwork?

Speaker 2:
[24:12] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:13] But he was like, okay, well, here's some game design concepts, here's some artwork we have, we've been working on, and just as Universal suspected, Tiger's new game was a clear ripoff of Donkey Kong. The artwork looked very similar to Nintendo's. It featured a generic-looking man climbing up the Empire State Building, King Kong stood in his way, holding a woman hostage and throwing what looked like wagon wheels instead of barrels.

Speaker 2:
[24:41] Yeah, that's totally different. Also, this woman was calling and wasn't pawling, so I don't know why everyone's so upset.

Speaker 1:
[24:48] Right. And the actual game was extremely similar too. It had ramps, it had ladders, the man had to climb up to save the woman. So, that was all the proof Universal needed. Several days later, they informed Tiger Electronics they were terminating the agreement because their game was too similar to, quote, a popular arcade game called Donkey Kong, currently owned and marketed by another company. And that termination cleared the way for the deal with Coleco, which would make Universal a lot more money. With the contract signed, Coleco tried their hardest to get Nintendo to settle. Because, remember, if they could, their royalty payments to Universal would be lowered. So they kept talking to Nintendo and they were like, Come on, leave town. No.

Speaker 2:
[25:35] Come on, be a friend.

Speaker 1:
[25:37] No.

Speaker 2:
[25:37] Oh, you're mean.

Speaker 1:
[25:40] But Nintendo's attorney Howard Lincoln was like, hell no, this cease and desist is so sus, as the kids say. Also, why are you being so pushy for us to settle? That's fishy too. Nintendo wasn't going to settle, but hey, maybe the two sides could work something out. So over the next several weeks, the companies met to discuss the situation. In their first meeting, Universal vice president Robert Haddle reiterated their position. Universal owns King Kong, Donkey Kong is clearly ripping off King Kong, and it would be in Nintendo's best interest to settle because, quote, Universal is very litigious.

Speaker 2:
[26:17] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[26:18] Coleco executives at the meeting nodded in agreement. Oh, yeah. Yep. He's right. We definitely should settle. Yep. You should definitely settle. But Howard Lincoln stood his ground. He was like, OK, you claim you own King Kong. Show me the chain of title. Show me the proof that Universal owns King Kong.

Speaker 2:
[26:37] All right, Howard, here we go.

Speaker 1:
[26:39] Because we aren't going to, quote, buy the Brooklyn Bridge. And if you're wondering what that phrase means, buy the Brooklyn Bridge, here's a fun fact. Wow.

Speaker 2:
[26:49] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[26:50] Back in the late 19th century and early 20th century, a con artist named George Parker sold fake ownership shares of the Brooklyn Bridge to unsuspecting immigrants and tourists. It resulted in the famous phrase, and if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you, which means you are gullible. Future topic.

Speaker 2:
[27:10] I do think it would be interesting to go into different phrases and learn about their horrible, horrible origin stories.

Speaker 1:
[27:17] You told me the other day that grandfathered has a horrible origin story.

Speaker 2:
[27:22] Well, specifically when you're talking about something being grandfathered in.

Speaker 1:
[27:28] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[27:29] Yeah. Future topic? The way you said it kind of made me think, like, just grandfathers in general.

Speaker 1:
[27:36] Just the word grandfather.

Speaker 2:
[27:38] Turns out it's not good. Don't want to be one.

Speaker 1:
[27:40] The shocking, horrible origin story.

Speaker 2:
[27:43] Of grandpas.

Speaker 1:
[27:43] Of grandpas. So in this sense, Howard Lincoln was telling Universal, Nintendo is not gullible. Show us the proof you own King Kong. Universal Vice President Robert Haddle was like, OK, you want the chain of title? No problem. Fine. I'll fax it to you right after this meeting. Kristen, do you think Universal sent the chain of title?

Speaker 2:
[28:06] I think they just forgot. I think they meant to send the attachment and then oopsies, they left for the day and they totally meant to. They totally had every intention and it's actually, it's just right, it's at my desk, but I'm away from my desk right now, so how about we talk about this at another time when we can touch base?

Speaker 1:
[28:23] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[28:24] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:25] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[28:25] How about that?

Speaker 1:
[28:26] As discussed in our previous meeting, please see the attached chain of title and there's no attachment. Yeah, Nintendo never received that chain of title, but still the two sides kept talking. On May 21st, 1982, the two sides met again. This time, Universal president Sid Sheinberg was in attendance and he was confident Nintendo would not want to go to court over this and would settle. But Howard Lincoln had other plans. He told Sheinberg that Nintendo had done nothing wrong and that there were, quote, some real questions about Universal's rights to King Kong. But hey, maybe the two companies could work something else out. Why not settle this matter by going into business together?

Speaker 2:
[29:16] Hmm.

Speaker 1:
[29:17] Howard Lincoln pitched a joint venture, possibly a movie. Or maybe Nintendo could make some video games based on Universal properties.

Speaker 2:
[29:26] You know, this is like every rom-com ever, where they start off hating each other, they're so mad. Then oopsies, they slip into each other and fall in love.

Speaker 1:
[29:36] Slip into each other?

Speaker 2:
[29:37] I really did not mean that the way you're taking it. Slip into each other? It's not Kinky Kong. I meant like, you know, in all these rom-coms, there's always like somebody falls or, you know, oh, clumsy.

Speaker 1:
[29:49] What's that rom-com with Gerard Butler?

Speaker 2:
[29:53] Norm, you are the rom-com expert in this room.

Speaker 1:
[29:56] Only Truth with Katherine Heigl and Gerard Butler. Yeah, that's kind of the plot of that. They were like, they hate each other, but then they have to work together and then they fall in love.

Speaker 2:
[30:05] No, this is all rom-coms. How do you, as someone who loves rom-coms, I mean, I hate to put-

Speaker 1:
[30:11] 27 Dresses is like that too, I guess.

Speaker 2:
[30:13] All rom-coms are like this?

Speaker 1:
[30:17] No. Yeah, When Harry Met Sally. Okay, they didn't like each other at first. Okay, nevermind, you're right. Okay, so Howard Lincoln is pitching a joint venture. Universal and Nintendo should work together. Howard Lincoln added, quote, I am not asking that you dismiss your claim. If you will just shelve it for a month or so, just put it aside while we explore whether we can do business together. Maybe we can resolve the claim that way.

Speaker 2:
[30:47] Howard Lincoln is good.

Speaker 1:
[30:49] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[30:50] I'm starting to think he didn't crap his members only trousers. I'm starting to think you were right all along.

Speaker 1:
[30:56] No, he is a very good lawyer, very good businessman. And this is a smart idea. This was a discovery in the court documents, by the way. I had no idea that Nintendo was interested in actually working with Universal on this. So it's just a fun what if scenario. Like, what if Universal and Nintendo had worked something out and they made a Donkey Kong movie in the 1980s?

Speaker 2:
[31:20] Yeah, that would have been great for all parties involved.

Speaker 1:
[31:24] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:24] But it sounds like Universal is too stupid to do that.

Speaker 1:
[31:28] Right. So very smart move by Nintendo. But yeah, as you can probably guess, there was no way in hell this was going to happen. Sid Sheinberg had zero interest in working with Nintendo. He responded, well, you better start saving your money for attorneys fees. Our litigation department turns a profit. Ouch.

Speaker 2:
[31:49] How douchey. So now it's just a power play, right? Okay.

Speaker 1:
[31:54] At this point, all Nintendo of America could do was wait for the other shoe to drop. They were expecting to be sued.

Speaker 2:
[31:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:00] With Nintendo refusing to give in, Universal took what they could get. They went back to Tiger Electronics and they were like, hey, if you make a few changes to that game, we'll give you a license to King Kong again.

Speaker 2:
[32:13] Oh, shut up.

Speaker 1:
[32:15] But this time, it's a non-exclusive license. So that way, they can get money from Coleco and Tiger.

Speaker 2:
[32:21] I hope Tiger Electronics told them to fist themselves. I'm sorry, we might have to bleep that. That was very graphic of me to say.

Speaker 1:
[32:29] Tiger Electronics agreed to make the changes. So the ramps in their level, they were made flat. The generic player was turned into a fireman. And King Kong now threw bombs instead of wooden wheels.

Speaker 2:
[32:42] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[32:42] So now Universal is gonna collect royalties from Coleco and Tiger. But still, Sid Sheinberg was so mad that Nintendo was not giving in. It really made his shit itch. Perhaps he felt like Nintendo was way too arrogant. Perhaps he thought he could just bully Nintendo into giving in. Either way, he fired the first shot. On June 29th, 1982, Universal officially filed suit against Nintendo. They claimed they owned all rights to King Kong and that Donkey Kong was infringing on those rights. But that wasn't the only big news that day, Kristen. Universal also put out a press release. Good news, everyone! Universal is now in the video game industry. We just signed a deal with Coleco for their new Donkey Kong cartridge game. It's officially licensed by us, Universal, the company that owns all the rights to King Kong. This was no doubt a tactic to convince the general public that Universal's claims were legitimate.

Speaker 2:
[33:44] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:45] All of these announcements shocked Nintendo. For one, they had no idea Coleco and Universal were making a deal behind their backs. Although maybe Howard Lincoln suspected that a little bit when Coleco kept demanding that Nintendo would make a deal with them, they were not. But the bigger news was that Universal was suing them. Nintendo was going up against one of the biggest media companies in the world. Now, although Howard Lincoln was a good lawyer, there was no way he was prepared to handle a case like this.

Speaker 2:
[34:19] Oh, hell no. No, you need a whole team.

Speaker 1:
[34:21] Right. And so he recruited help from one of New York City's finest law firms, Mudge, Rose, Guthrie, Alexander and Ferdin. Fun fact, Richard Nixon briefly worked for them in the 1960s.

Speaker 2:
[34:37] Cute.

Speaker 1:
[34:38] It's after he lost the presidential election in 1960, and then he lost the California governor election in 1962. So he went and worked for this law firm.

Speaker 2:
[34:49] Wow, that Nixon guy. Inspiring story.

Speaker 1:
[34:52] Yep. He's the calm, the comeback kid.

Speaker 2:
[34:55] And nothing bad happened to him after he finally attained that top spot.

Speaker 1:
[35:00] That's right. He is a hero. So from that prestigious law firm came a fella named John Kirby. John Kirby's specialty was antitrust cases. He worked on cases for PepsiCo and General Foods. And at first, Howard Lincoln wasn't super impressed by John Kirby. He said, quote, when I initially met him, I wasn't all that impressed. He was kind of disheveled looking and out of sorts. But it didn't take long to figure out that this guy was one hell of a lawyer.

Speaker 2:
[35:28] Did he look like Kirby? That part of the problem?

Speaker 1:
[35:31] I mean, he was bald.

Speaker 2:
[35:33] Was he a little pink fella?

Speaker 1:
[35:35] Uh, John Kirby had that dog in him, Kristen.

Speaker 2:
[35:38] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[35:39] He had a reputation for going after the big guys. He was the lawyer Nintendo needed in that moment. And Nintendo may have been an underdog, but they weren't going to go down without a fight. Kristen, it's time to present both sides of this case. And as a former law school student with one semester under your belt, I'm eager to hear your professional opinion.

Speaker 2:
[36:01] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[36:02] Are you ready? No.

Speaker 2:
[36:04] I need several more semesters, but I guess I'll go.

Speaker 1:
[36:07] All right. Let's start with Universal. Their argument was pretty simple. They owned all the rights to King Kong, including name, likeness, and story. And Universal argued there was just no way Nintendo could have come up with Donkey Kong without being inspired by King Kong. In their initial complaint, Universal highlighted several similarities between Donkey Kong and King Kong. So there is the name Donkey Kong itself, which included the word Kong and described a large gorilla character. The game also shows Donkey Kong climbing a structure with a, quote, captive young female hostage, in a manner reminiscent of the King Kong gorilla, made famous by the motion picture. Universal believed Nintendo was fully aware of King Kong when making the game and wanted to capitalize on the character without Universal's consent. And because of the game's success, there was now, quote, public confusion about Donkey Kong and King Kong. Further sales would, quote, likely damage Universal's business reputation.

Speaker 2:
[37:11] Uh, what?

Speaker 1:
[37:12] And dilute the distinctive quality of the King Kong name, character, and image. You know, that shining, pristine King Kong image.

Speaker 2:
[37:22] Yep, yep.

Speaker 1:
[37:24] Universal wanted justice for these grave crimes. They demanded Nintendo stop selling Donkey Kong, unless, of course, they bought a license from Universal. But if not, Nintendo had to remove all Donkey Kong arcade cabinets and merchandise and destroy it. All copyrights and trademarks must be withdrawn. And finally, Universal wanted some money. Specifically, an amount equal to three times the profits of Donkey Kong. Oh. Along with damages, interest, attorney fees, and more.

Speaker 2:
[38:00] Good God. Anything else?

Speaker 1:
[38:03] Back rub.

Speaker 2:
[38:04] They want more than a back rub. My God. They want front rubs, Norm.

Speaker 1:
[38:10] Rubbing tugs.

Speaker 2:
[38:13] OK, so you're asking my opinion on this? Or are you wanting me to hold off?

Speaker 1:
[38:17] Hold off. So I'm going to go over some of the evidence they've been gathering, because we're in discovery right now.

Speaker 2:
[38:22] All right. I'm discovering some opinions of my own.

Speaker 1:
[38:26] Oh, excellent. So, yeah, of course, Universal has to prove all of these accusations. Now, their legal team did a full investigation. So Universal lawyers flew out to Nintendo of Japan, and they deposed anyone involved with the game. So they interviewed Gunpei Yokoi, Shigeru Miyamoto, the president, Hiroshi Yamauchi, and more. And they really turned the screws on them, Kristin. Or well, they tried to. You know, there were language barriers. Many questions had to be reworded and answered multiple times.

Speaker 2:
[38:57] That is so great for Nintendo. I mean, that really slows it down. If they don't have attorneys who are fluent in Japanese, like, yeah, by they, I mean universal, obviously.

Speaker 1:
[39:09] So it was funny. Like, they were talking to Gunpei Yokoi, and they were like, why did you use the word Kong? Fess up, you were thinking of the movie. Gunpei Yokoi said something, the translator was like, we thought Kong was the pronoun of gorilla. And the lawyer was like, pronoun? That doesn't make sense. So they had to ask him again. And Yokoi was like, oh, I meant the word synonym. Kong is a synonym of gorilla.

Speaker 2:
[39:36] There's so much great stuff here. Number one, I would imagine in a deposition, it's a little bit, probably a lot of bit, about needling someone and ratcheting up the drama. But there's nothing that stops the drama. I mean, like a true turd in the punch bowl, like, okay, I'm gonna say this with a lot of passion. And then the translator is going to calmly interpret it without the drama. And the person can sit and think a minute. I mean, I feel like any good attorney who's prepping their client for deposition is gonna remind them, hey, you can pause, you can breathe, you can think. But this is like built into the system.

Speaker 1:
[40:18] Yes. In these court documents are the depositions. And I kid you not, half of the pages are them rewording questions.

Speaker 2:
[40:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[40:28] Or the lawyers being like, my client is confused by what you're asking. You know? So to sum it up, Gunpei Yokoi and Shigeru Miyamoto both admitted that they called the gorilla character by several names, including Gorilla, Kong, or King Kong. Both men admitted they had seen King Kong films before. However, both men also said that they viewed the word Kong as generic. Yokoi defined Kong as quote, a big gorilla, while Miyamoto saw King Kong as quote, a big gorilla, which is a stuffed doll. So like a man in a costume. Universal lawyers tried to get them to admit that they were thinking of the King Kong plot when coming up with the game. But Yokoi and Miyamoto denied that. Yokoi said he didn't even really remember the plot of King Kong. He had seen it like 30 years ago on TV. And the plot of Donkey Kong was just quote, the story of a man coming to rescue a woman, not anything special. So overall, Universal really didn't get much out of these depositions. But hey, maybe they could prove public confusion of Donkey Kong and King Kong. Universal's legal team found multiple books, magazines, and trade publications with examples. So in his book, The Winner's Book of Video Games, author Craig Kuby described Donkey Kong as quote, a video version of the film classic King Kong. In an October 1982 article for Video Gaming Illustrated, it stated quote, inarguably the most visible of Donkey Kong's predecessors is King Kong and his movie Kin. And then in a March 1982 issue of Replay Magazine, an article on Donkey Kong stated, for those who don't already know, Donkey Kong is a cute game loosely based on the King Kong theme. So in addition to those examples, Universal commissioned a market research study. 150 respondents from arcades, bowling alleys, and pizza parlors were surveyed to see if there was a likelihood of confusion between Donkey Kong and King Kong. Almost 20% of the respondents believed Donkey Kong was associated with King Kong. And to Universal, that was a pretty significant number. But perhaps Universal's most effective strategy in this entire lawsuit, Kristen, was intimidation. Because they contacted just about every Donkey Kong licensee and threatened legal action against them. Unless of course they bought a license from Universal.

Speaker 2:
[43:07] Good grief.

Speaker 1:
[43:11] These court documents contained letter after letter to companies like Milton Bradley, Charleston Hosiery, Super Shirts, Ralston Purina, Tops Chewing Gum, and even Atari, threatening legal action for selling Donkey Kong products without a King Kong license. Universal even went after Ruby Spears, the company making the animated Saturday Super Cage Show, which featured Donkey Kong. And each letter basically threatened the same thing. Buy a license from Universal or remove your product from the market. If not, we will pursue legal action. So some companies just bowed out. They were like, fine, we won't sell Donkey Kong products anymore. Many of these companies were tiny compared to Universal, like minuscule. The threat of a lawsuit was more than enough to scare them away. And these threats soured the relationship between Nintendo and their licensees. Several of them responded to Nintendo angrily about the situation. So Manton Cork, which made like Donkey Kong chalkboards, they wrote to Nintendo, quote, Our program was killed as a result of the Universal lawsuit and threats against us. This has been a horrible and costly experience for us.

Speaker 2:
[44:25] I mean, that sucks because that's not Nintendo's fault.

Speaker 1:
[44:29] Right. But a lot of these companies, while this is all playing out, maybe they don't know the full story and they're just like...

Speaker 2:
[44:36] Well, no, even if they did know the full story, it sucks for them.

Speaker 1:
[44:40] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[44:40] You know, they don't want to get involved in this.

Speaker 1:
[44:42] Well, and they pay this licensing fee for Donkey Kong and it's useless to them now.

Speaker 2:
[44:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:48] Of course, other companies caved in to Universal's demands. Atari, which had the home computer game rights to Donkey Kong. Just like Coleco, they agreed to pay a 3% royalty to Universal. Ruby Spears, that made the Saturday Supercade Cartoon Show. They made a deal too. And after that deal, Universal boasted in a press release that it had, quote, secured international television distribution rights in Donkey Kong.

Speaker 2:
[45:15] I hate Universal right now.

Speaker 1:
[45:18] I told you.

Speaker 2:
[45:19] Hate them. Also, isn't it rich that they're trying to argue that they are being harmed by this?

Speaker 1:
[45:28] Yeah, and they're just, like, scooping up all these licensees and getting money.

Speaker 2:
[45:31] All kinds of money from this wildly popular game. If anything, it's benefiting.

Speaker 1:
[45:38] Yeah, you even have people licensing King Kong for the first time in years.

Speaker 2:
[45:42] Right.

Speaker 1:
[45:44] Universal was pulling out all the stops in this lawsuit. They felt they had proof Nintendo directly copied King Kong and had caused confusion in the public sphere. Their intimidation tactics with Nintendo licensees was working. But remember, Kristen, their entire argument hinged on the idea that Universal owned all the rights to King Kong. And so that was where Nintendo focused their efforts. So now let's talk about Nintendo's argument. You know, Howard Lincoln had always been suspicious about Universal's claims to the rights of King Kong. So if they could get to the bottom of that, maybe this lawsuit would just go nowhere.

Speaker 2:
[46:26] Oh, the whole thing falls apart. If Universal doesn't actually own this, then it's all over. Oh, what an opportunity! Game over! Ha!

Speaker 1:
[46:36] Game over, Universal!

Speaker 2:
[46:37] Wow, that came to me two seconds too late.

Speaker 1:
[46:40] Wow. Spoken like a true gamer, Kristen.

Speaker 2:
[46:43] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[46:44] So John Kirby and his legal team poured through old court cases. They deposed several Universal executives and attorneys, hoping to find out who exactly owned the rights to King Kong. And what they discovered changed everything. So, we're going to do a brief recap about the history of King Kong rights. Because this can get a little confusing, so bear with me. We have to go all the way back to 1929. Oh, we're going back in time. It's 1929, and Marion Cooper has come up with the idea for King Kong. Came to him in a dream about a giant gorilla attacking New York City. A few years later, Cooper licensed that idea to RKO Pictures, which resulted in the 1933 original film. The 1933 King Kong film is a classic, is one of the all-time great monster movies. It used revolutionary special effects, combining live-action sequences and stop-motion animation. And just about anyone can recognize the iconic scene of King Kong climbing the Empire State Building with the beautiful Endero in his grasp as planes fly around him shooting at him. That original movie was a massive hit. So naturally, RKO Pictures put out a sequel. Son of Kong. Well, that sucks. Yeah, Son of Kong was definitely not a memorable follow-up. Have you ever seen Son of Kong?

Speaker 2:
[48:18] No, no one has.

Speaker 1:
[48:19] Yeah, definitely not as good. Several decades passed without a word from King Kong. And then in the 1960s, RKO Pictures licensed King Kong for an upcoming Japanese film, King Kong Vs. Godzilla. And Marion Cooper, the original creator and director of the first film, thought that RKO Pictures had no right to do that. Because he created the character, he should be the one selling the rights, not RKO. So he filed a lawsuit claiming RKO Pictures only had the rights to the original film and that terrible sequel, Son of Kong. Here is the problem though, Kristen. Marion Cooper couldn't provide sufficient proof that he owned the rights to King Kong. The only evidence he could muster up was a novelization of his story. Now he had witnesses come in and say, yes, Marion Cooper wrote this story. He told us about it. He sold it to RKO, but like written documentation of selling King Kong to RKO, he could not provide.

Speaker 2:
[49:26] Oh no.

Speaker 1:
[49:28] So ultimately, the only thing Marion Cooper had the rights to was the novelization of King Kong.

Speaker 2:
[49:35] That really sucks. And when RKO went through discovery, they didn't have like ye old timey receipt for paying that guy?

Speaker 1:
[49:45] No. Another decade passed before we heard from King Kong again. In 1975, two movie studios approached RKO Pictures about making a remake of the 1933 film. The first studio was Universal, led by Sid Sheinberg. And according to Sheinberg, Universal and RKO Pictures had a verbal agreement on making a King Kong remake.

Speaker 2:
[50:14] Give me a break, Sid.

Speaker 1:
[50:15] The second studio was the Dino De Laurentiis Corporation, led by the filmmaker of the same name. And you know, Sid Sheinberg thought that Universal was going to win this battle to make the King Kong film. But Dino De Laurentiis was like, hey, RKO Pictures, how about I pay you $200,000 for the rights? Sold. So Dino De Laurentiis won the rights to remake the original King Kong film. And when Sid Sheinberg found out about that, Universal sued them.

Speaker 2:
[50:45] What?

Speaker 1:
[50:46] Which set off a spiderweb of legal battles. So yeah, Sid Sheinberg said, hey, I had a verbal agreement with RKO to remake this and now you're selling it to Dino De Laurentiis, I'm suing you.

Speaker 2:
[50:59] This guy just loves suing people.

Speaker 1:
[51:01] He's a former lawyer. In court, Universal Lawyers made a stunning declaration. Are you ready for this? The copyright for Marion Cooper's novelization of the King Kong story had expired. It was now in the public domain and therefore anyone can make a new movie about King Kong, including Universal.

Speaker 2:
[51:23] Oh, uh.

Speaker 1:
[51:26] In addition, I'm not done yet. In addition, Universal's lawyers argued that King Kong could not be trademarked because the term lacked secondary meaning.

Speaker 2:
[51:38] What the? Wow.

Speaker 1:
[51:43] Yeah. So if you're wondering what secondary meaning means, here's an example. The Miami Dolphins. By itself, you could define that as dolphins from the Miami area, but because of the National Football League, there is now a secondary meaning, the football team. Therefore, Miami Dolphins can be trademarked. So in this case, Universal was saying, King Kong lacked a secondary meaning. It was now just a generic term in the English language.

Speaker 2:
[52:16] I love this.

Speaker 1:
[52:17] Over the next few years, several court cases played out and it established a few key things. Number one, Marion Cooper's copyright to the novelization of the King Kong story had indeed expired, thereby putting it in the public domain. So that meant Universal was free to make their own King Kong film, as long as it didn't copy the original 1933 picture from RKO. Number two, Marion Cooper's estate actually did own the rights to the name, character, and story of King Kong. RKO Pictures only owned the movie rights to the original King Kong film and that terrible sequel, Son of Kong. And number three, because the Cooper estate did indeed own the rights to King Kong, RKO Pictures had illegally licensed out King Kong over the years and they owed the Cooper estate money for those licenses. However, the Cooper estate did not own any trademarks for King Kong. For almost 40 years, they never challenged RKO Pictures rights to King Kong. And because of King Kong's enormous success, the property had become, quote, part of the ordinary English language. And this was where Universal fudged the bucket, Kristen, because after all those court cases, Universal worked out a deal with the Cooper estate to purchase the King Kong name, characters and story for $200,000. And Sid Sheinberg incorrectly thought that meant Universal owned the trademarks and copyrights. But they didn't. And Universal's merchandising department basically backed that up. Because if you recall from part one, the merchandising department was not only hesitant to give out King Kong licenses, they ended up removing it completely as a licensable IP. So that basically sums up the King Kong licensing fiasco. That was a major discovery for Nintendo's lawyers.

Speaker 2:
[54:26] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[54:27] But that was only the beginning, Kristin.

Speaker 2:
[54:29] But wait, there's more.

Speaker 1:
[54:33] Nintendo found that Universal had never, never used the King Kong name, the character or story as a trademark in any of its business ventures since that massive lawsuit. Their only income from a King Kong license was from Ben Cooper Halloween masks. Would you like to guess the total amount of money Universal had made from King Kong?

Speaker 2:
[54:59] Please tell me.

Speaker 1:
[55:00] $3,000.

Speaker 2:
[55:01] Oh, my God.

Speaker 1:
[55:04] And they had purchased that license from Paramount Pictures, who distributed the 1976 remake. By comparison, Nintendo had sold more than 60,000 Donkey Kong arcade cabinets in North America, raking in $150 million. More than 7 million Donkey Kong products had been sold in the United States. When Nintendo deposed Universal president Sid Sheinberg, he couldn't specify who owned what rights to King Kong, even those owned by Universal. And there is documented proof of that too, because when Universal was working on their new King Kong theme park ride, they told the designers, do not use any images from the 1933 film, do not use any images from the 1976 remake. Instead, just use a generic ape. If Universal truly owned all the rights to King Kong, why would that be a problem?

Speaker 2:
[56:04] Right.

Speaker 1:
[56:05] How come multiple companies over the years had used the name King Kong in their products and Universal did absolutely nothing about it? Furthermore, in its royalty agreements with companies like Coleco and Atari, Universal never established its rights to King Kong, even on the packaging of those products. Universal never showed their logo. They never said King Kong is a copyright of Universal Studios. In fact, the packaging only said one thing. Nintendo owned the rights to Donkey Kong. John Kirby and his legal team found an absolute treasure trove of bullshit. And ultimately, Nintendo's defense boiled down to this. Number one, Universal had previously successfully argued that King Kong was in the public domain. Number two, Universal had no claims to a King Kong trademark. Number three, King Kong can't even be trademarked because its enormous popularity and multiple uses had diluted the product. The name had no secondary meaning. And number four, it is highly unlikely anyone who played Donkey Kong would confuse it with King Kong. How could Universal argue that King Kong was in the public domain in one hand while also claiming to own all the rights on the other hand? How could Universal claim ownership of King Kong when they themselves weren't really sure what exactly they owned? And even if they did own the rights, which they didn't, Donkey Kong was not similar enough to the original King Kong characters and story. So to John Kirby, this entire case was bogus.

Speaker 2:
[57:44] I think you are wrong, Norman. I think what Universal is doing here is just what you see in any good high school debate club. The teacher has you pick a side and then they're like, nope, you're going to argue the other one now.

Speaker 1:
[57:56] Oh, I see.

Speaker 2:
[57:59] No, this is such disingenuous bullshit.

Speaker 1:
[58:03] Yes. And spoiler alert, the judge agreed.

Speaker 2:
[58:07] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:07] It was extremely disingenuous and Universal basically had no right to bring this to trial.

Speaker 2:
[58:13] The ball's on them.

Speaker 1:
[58:14] Yeah. So on May 10th, 1983, John Kirby threw down the gauntlet. He filed a motion for summary judgment. In other words, the court should rule on this lawsuit without a full trial based on all of the evidence Nintendo had gathered.

Speaker 2:
[58:31] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[58:32] Nintendo was basically saying this case is so one-sided, there is absolutely no way Universal can win this lawsuit. On August 8th, 1983, both parties pled their case in front of Judge Robert Sweet. Universal lawyers tried to explain their ownership of the King Kong trademark, and how Nintendo was absolutely inspired by King Kong with their game. John Kirby explained why Universal actually didn't own any of the trademarks. He was like, hey, I'm gonna play you some clips from the 1933 King Kong movie, I'm gonna play you some clips from the 1976 King Kong movie, and then I'm gonna have a Nintendo employee come in and play Donkey Kong in the courtroom. And Judge Robert Sweet, you tell me if these things are similar. It was, as Judge Sweet put it, a dispute over two gorillas, and it was ultimately up to him to decide. Shortly before Christmas, on December 22nd, 1983, Judge Sweet made his ruling. He granted Nintendo's motion for summary judgment. In his ruling, Judge Sweet declared that when Universal made an agreement with the Cooper estate, they did not gain control of any trademarks. In addition, King Kong lacked secondary meaning and therefore could not even be trademarked. Judge Sweet wrote, quote, Because of the competing property interests in King Kong and considering third party's unauthorized use of King Kong trademarks for various products, King Kong no longer signifies a single source of origin to consumers and thus is not a valid trademark. In addition, Donkey Kong and King Kong were not similar enough. Judge Sweet found the Donkey Kong character, quote, farcical, childlike and non-sexual. Well, King Kong was, quote, a ferocious gorilla in quest of a beautiful woman. I guess Judge Sweet is saying that he thought King Kong was kind of sexy.

Speaker 2:
[60:41] I mean, that's what has always creeped me out about King Kong, frankly. What's he doing with that lady? That's not love. But I do like that. Sounds like Judge Sweet would not see it coming. The Donkey Dong graffiti on the arcade cabinets. Nonsexual, childlike.

Speaker 1:
[61:08] Kristen, this was a stunning victory, a true David versus Goliath moment. Nintendo of America had fought the Universal giant and won. But the case was far from over because Nintendo had some counterclaims for Universal. I guess you can imagine that Nintendo might have some problems with what Universal did and is seeking some justice for them.

Speaker 2:
[61:28] Yes, because Universal damaged their reputation and hurt their relationship with all their little friends who are going to do little Donkey Kong games and such.

Speaker 1:
[61:41] That's right. So here are the counterclaims. Number one, Universal had knowingly lied about their rights to King Kong, to Nintendo licensees and unjustly enriched themselves with bullshit contracts.

Speaker 2:
[61:55] Agreed.

Speaker 1:
[61:56] Number two, Tiger Electronics' stupid little King Kong game was copyright infringement on Nintendo's Donkey Kong game.

Speaker 2:
[62:05] It sure was.

Speaker 1:
[62:06] And number three, Universal had quote, torchesly interfered with Nintendo contracts by sending bullshit cease and desist letters. Nintendo wanted five million dollars in damages. So ultimately, the case was reopened for a bench trial in May of 1985.

Speaker 2:
[62:30] This is quite a spanking for Universal.

Speaker 1:
[62:33] So there's not going to be any jury. A judge would decide if Nintendo's counterclaims were valid. And after several days of testimony, Judge Robert Sweet ruled in favor of Nintendo, but not on every counterclaim. So, for the Tiger Electronics copyright infringement. Absolutely, this is a clear ripoff of Donkey Kong. Nintendo was awarded all of Universal's profits from that game. It wasn't much.

Speaker 2:
[63:02] Whatever, take it.

Speaker 1:
[63:04] Torchous interference. Absolutely. Universal's intimidation tactics killed several contracts between Nintendo and other companies. But the unjust enrichment claim... Hell no.

Speaker 2:
[63:18] Why not?

Speaker 1:
[63:19] So, Judge Robert Sweet argued that for unjust enrichment to be true, Universal would have had to take money away from Nintendo. But even though Coleco and Atari had signed bullshit royalty agreements with Universal, that was on them. Nintendo was still paid in full by both Coleco and Atari for their contracts. And if you're wondering, did Coleco and Atari sue Universal? Absolutely they did. And as far as I know, both of those cases resulted in settlements, and they got their money back. Ultimately, Nintendo was only awarded $1.6 million in damages. Several appeals followed. Universal tried to argue that there was still public confusion between King Kong and Donkey Kong. Because that's really all they have now. They can't argue trademark. So the only thing they can argue is public confusion. And they're like, look, we did this survey, and this survey proves that 20% of people are confused.

Speaker 2:
[64:22] They just can't give up, can they?

Speaker 1:
[64:24] No. But the appeals court spanked their little bare button balls, absolutely roasted them and their survey. They wrote, quote, we find that universal survey is so badly flawed that it cannot be used to demonstrate the existence of a question of fact on the likelihood of consumer confusion. Because would you like to hear the question that they asked the public?

Speaker 2:
[64:49] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[64:50] To the best of your knowledge, was the Donkey Kong game made with the approval or under the authority of the people who produce the King Kong movies?

Speaker 2:
[64:59] What a weird question.

Speaker 1:
[65:01] Yeah. So 18% of respondents said, yes, Donkey Kong was made under the authority of the people who produce King Kong movies. The appeals court thought that question was not only a leading question that suggested its own answer, but it was also a flawed question because it was, quote, a transparent attempt to raise an image which Universal does not own in the minds of the respondents. By the way, that same survey had another question. As far as you know, who makes Donkey Kong? Guess how many people answered Universal?

Speaker 2:
[65:38] Zero.

Speaker 1:
[65:39] Zero. No one thought Universal made Donkey Kong.

Speaker 2:
[65:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[65:43] Public confusion, my ass. The appeals court upheld all of Judge Robert Sweet's rulings. Case closed, bitches.

Speaker 2:
[65:53] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[65:55] So where does that leave us, Kristin?

Speaker 2:
[65:58] Leaves Universal putting ointments on their bums. I can't believe they did all that.

Speaker 1:
[66:05] Yeah. Can you believe the nuts on them to bring that?

Speaker 2:
[66:09] Well, it's... I said something about them not giving up, and I hate that, because that can sometimes be interpreted as a good thing. This is more like refusing to admit you were wrong.

Speaker 1:
[66:20] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[66:21] And how hilarious that they spent so much money trying to argue that they were right when they knew all along they were wrong.

Speaker 1:
[66:28] And they tried to argue, we were acting in good faith, we got bad advice from some attorneys, blah, blah. And it's like, no, Sid Sheinberg.

Speaker 2:
[66:39] I've been hurt in the past.

Speaker 1:
[66:41] Sid Sheinberg was right in the middle of that lawsuit over the rights to King Kong. He knew all about it.

Speaker 2:
[66:48] Listen, they knew, as soon as Howard Phillips was like, yes, send me that fax, and they didn't send it, they knew right then.

Speaker 1:
[66:57] You mean Howard Lincoln.

Speaker 2:
[66:58] Howard, what did I call him?

Speaker 1:
[66:59] Howard Phillips, who was a Nintendo employee. People always confuse them.

Speaker 2:
[67:03] Good grief.

Speaker 1:
[67:04] Two Howards.

Speaker 2:
[67:05] And also, real stand up names, don't we think?

Speaker 1:
[67:08] Howard.

Speaker 2:
[67:09] Howard Phillips and Howard Lincoln.

Speaker 1:
[67:12] Two studs.

Speaker 2:
[67:14] Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:
[67:16] Universal v. Nintendo proved to be a turning point for Nintendo of America. They continued to build off the success of Donkey Kong with two sequels, Donkey Kong Jr. and Donkey Kong 3. And with the record profits from those games, they invested heavily into the marketing and launch of a brand new home video game console, the Nintendo Entertainment System. A system that revived the home video game market and launched Nintendo into a whole new stratosphere of popularity. Minoru Arakawa led Nintendo of America through many successful years until he retired in 2002. But he had help from a new executive, Howard Lincoln. Arakawa had asked Lincoln to join Nintendo as Vice President and General Counsel during the Universal v. Nintendo case, and Lincoln accepted. And he served that role until 1999. And then he joined another Nintendo company, the Seattle Mariners baseball team. And Howard Lincoln served as the CEO of the Seattle Mariners until 2016. Attorney John Kirby was rewarded for his expert litigation with a brand new sailboat named Donkey Kong. Nintendo jokingly stated that Kirby, quote, had exclusive worldwide rights to use the name for sailboats. But John Kirby's legacy lives on in a Nintendo character, a cute little pink puffball named Kirby. Legendary Nintendo engineer Gunpei Yokoi would continue to put out successful Game and Watch products, but his greatest creation might be his work on the Game Boy, a handheld video game system with interchangeable cartridges. Unfortunately, he followed up that success with The Virtual Boy, a weird 3D system featuring red and black graphics that looked like a giant pair of binoculars. You had to peer into it to play the thing. Remember that thing, Kristin?

Speaker 2:
[69:09] Norm, okay, you're going to hate this idea, but there are so many Gaming Historian episodes you did about toys that kind of flopped. That's like my favorite thing.

Speaker 1:
[69:19] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[69:20] I think it'd be fun to do more of these for Old Timey Podcast.

Speaker 1:
[69:25] Oh, boy.

Speaker 2:
[69:26] I know you're going to hate that idea.

Speaker 1:
[69:27] Like the Pet Rock?

Speaker 2:
[69:28] Well, I mean, it is fun. Oh, God, what's the Power Glove?

Speaker 1:
[69:34] Power Glove, yep.

Speaker 2:
[69:35] Power Glove is another fun one.

Speaker 1:
[69:36] U-Force?

Speaker 2:
[69:37] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[69:39] Those were fun to make, just like weird, terrible old video game accessories.

Speaker 2:
[69:45] I think they'd be fun Old Timey episodes.

Speaker 1:
[69:47] Okay. I actually would be curious to know, what is a weird, dumb product you would like to know the history of? Because I do feel like I'm pretty good at researching that.

Speaker 2:
[69:58] I mean, that is your specialty.

Speaker 1:
[70:00] If there's a weird, dumb product out there you want to know the history of, let me know. That's the question of the week.

Speaker 2:
[70:05] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[70:06] So yeah, Gunpei Yokoi made The Virtual Boy. Didn't do very well. Really uncomfortable to play. It was expensive. People didn't really like it. Gunpei Yokoi left Nintendo after The Virtual Boy, and he formed his own engineering company, Koto Laboratory. And they successfully worked on a new handheld called the Bandai Wonder Swan. Sadly, Gunpei Yokoi tragically passed away in 1997 at the age of 56. He was involved in a car accident, and while inspecting the damage, another car drove by and struck him.

Speaker 2:
[70:41] Oh, I hate that.

Speaker 1:
[70:43] His young protege, Shigeru Miyamoto, carried on Yokoi's legacy of creating successful Nintendo products. After his excellent work on Donkey Kong, Nintendo president Hiroshi Yamauchi entrusted him to make more games. And it's a laundry list of classic video game franchises, Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda, Star Fox, Pikmin, and more. Amazingly, Shigeru Miyamoto is still working on games at Nintendo today, at the age of 73. So, that was Nintendo's legacy, but what about the other side? Let's take a look. Tiger Electronics' King Kong game wasn't exactly a massive success. Many people thought it was fun, but also clearly a ripoff of Donkey Kong. Over the next decade, Tiger put out little handheld electronic LCD games and other gizmos like the Talk Boy and Hit Clips. You remember Hit Clips?

Speaker 2:
[71:40] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[71:40] It played like a 15-second clip. Uh-huh.

Speaker 2:
[71:44] Of like a song? Yeah. What a dumb thing.

Speaker 1:
[71:48] Hey, this was before MP3 players, Kristen.

Speaker 2:
[71:51] It felt like a big deal.

Speaker 1:
[71:53] But Tiger really struck gold in 1998 with a toy that swept the nation, Furby.

Speaker 2:
[71:59] Oh. No-no. Young listeners, and I know we've got at least a dozen of you.

Speaker 1:
[72:11] There's dozens of us.

Speaker 2:
[72:12] Don't Google Furby.

Speaker 1:
[72:14] They relaunched Furby.

Speaker 2:
[72:15] If you don't know, they did. They shouldn't have.

Speaker 1:
[72:17] I think in like 2021, they relaunched Furby.

Speaker 2:
[72:19] Well, another generation is haunted, I guess. There are some things that should just be left in the past, and I think Furby is creepy enough that it should have been left there.

Speaker 1:
[72:31] I wanted a Furby.

Speaker 2:
[72:32] You did?

Speaker 1:
[72:33] I thought they were kind of cool. They like talked to you and their eyes moved. But yeah, they did sound. Hee hee hee.

Speaker 2:
[72:40] No no no.

Speaker 1:
[72:41] Do away. God. Just like gibberish. Have you ever seen the video of the Furby melting? Someone like lights a Furby on fire.

Speaker 2:
[72:50] Oh my god.

Speaker 1:
[72:51] It's like something out of a horror movie. Because the voice starts going... Blah blah blah. And its eyes are like huge and bright.

Speaker 2:
[73:01] That's terrible.

Speaker 1:
[73:02] Yeah. In three years, Tiger and its parent company Hasbro sold more than 40 million Furbies.

Speaker 2:
[73:10] I mean, that was like the toy of the year. One year for Christmas, wasn't it?

Speaker 1:
[73:14] 1999 was when it really blew up. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[73:18] Good grief.

Speaker 1:
[73:19] Now, let's talk about Coleco. Coleco's time in the video game industry was short-lived. They ended up selling around 2 million ColecoVision consoles. But the video game crash of 1983 hurt their business. And by 1985, Coleco was done with electronics. They found success with Cabbage Patch Kids dolls. But a series of bad investments led the company to file bankruptcy in 1988. In 1989, Hasbro swallowed up most of Coleco's assets. And now let's talk about Universal. Sid Sheinberg remained president of Universal until 1995. During his tenure, he oversaw several successful movie franchises, including Back to the Future and Jurassic Park. Fun fact, Sid Sheinberg wanted to call Back to the Future, Spaceman from Pluto.

Speaker 2:
[74:11] A lot of good ideas.

Speaker 1:
[74:13] This guy sucks. What a terrible idea. So I found a memo from Sid Sheinberg to, I think, Steven Spielberg and a couple of producers for Back to the Future. And he was like, man, this script's awesome, but I really hate the name Back to the Future. I think we should really call it Spaceman from Pluto. And he asked them to change lines in the script, so it would match up with his stupid title.

Speaker 2:
[74:43] Good grief.

Speaker 1:
[74:45] What a terrible idea.

Speaker 2:
[74:46] You know, I'm starting to think that guy's only good idea was suing people and just gobbling up whatever profits people would give him.

Speaker 1:
[74:54] Hey, he viewed litigation as a profit center, remember?

Speaker 2:
[74:58] I mean, he was right.

Speaker 1:
[74:59] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[75:00] Well, except for this.

Speaker 1:
[75:01] Except for the Nintendo case. Universal's ventures into the video game industry were not as successful as their movie business. They licensed ET to video game giant Atari, and it wound up being one of the biggest commercial failures in video game history. Atari ended up notoriously bearing ET cartridges in a New Mexico landfill. In 1985, Universal purchased toy company LJN, who soon started making video games for the Nintendo Entertainment System. But LJN games had a reputation for being not so good. In 1994, Universal formed Universal Interactive Studios, and had some success with games like Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon. But as of today, Kristen, Universal doesn't really do anything in the video game industry, besides license out their IPs to developers. And speaking of IPs, Universal has been remaking King Kong a lot recently. You remember the 2005 remake with Jack Black and Naomi Watts, directed by Peter Jackson?

Speaker 2:
[76:09] This is sounding familiar. Talk about a movie I have no interest in whatsoever.

Speaker 1:
[76:14] It wasn't bad, the remake. But...

Speaker 2:
[76:16] You watched it?

Speaker 1:
[76:17] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[76:18] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[76:19] Peter Jackson, of Lord of the Rings fame? Of course I'm going to watch his King Kong remake.

Speaker 2:
[76:23] Oh my god, was it like three hours? You haven't lived till you've seen the extended cut.

Speaker 1:
[76:29] Hey, Lord of the Rings movies are very good.

Speaker 2:
[76:32] Hold on. King Kong, what year was it?

Speaker 1:
[76:36] 2004 or 2005, the King Kong remake.

Speaker 2:
[76:40] Oh, never mind. I looked it up just to prove you wrong on something and I... Oh. See, I was banking on the idea that the Rotten Tomatoes score would be just terrible, so I could be like, and other people agree, but it's 84%, which is pretty darn high.

Speaker 1:
[76:57] Yeah, it is a decent remake.

Speaker 2:
[76:59] Okay. What are you looking up?

Speaker 1:
[77:02] Well, I'm looking up the new King Kong movies, like Kong Skull Island and all that, and those were put out by Warner Brothers. I wonder how Warner Brothers ended up with King Kong.

Speaker 2:
[77:15] Let's sue them and pretend we have the copyright.

Speaker 1:
[77:18] Ah, the project initially began at Universal Pictures as an origin story, but was later moved to Warner Brothers to develop a shared cinematic universe featuring Godzilla. So that's why it was given to Warner Brothers. So yeah, Universal is still making King Kong movies today. And speaking of today, Kristen, there doesn't seem to be any bad blood between Universal and Nintendo anymore. The 2023 Super Mario Bros. movie was distributed by none other than Universal, and grossed more than $1 billion worldwide.

Speaker 2:
[77:51] Good grief.

Speaker 1:
[77:53] A sequel was released this year, the Super Mario Galaxy movie, and that will also probably rake in lots and lots of money. And to think, the origins of Universal and Nintendo's relationship began with a dispute over two gorillas. And that's the story of when Universal sued Nintendo over Donkey Kong.

Speaker 2:
[78:12] Norm, this really did turn out like a rom-com. They hated each other, and now they're madly in love, rolling around on a pile of cash.

Speaker 1:
[78:23] It really is a rom-com. Now they're madly in love. Money brought them together and tore them apart.

Speaker 2:
[78:29] Oh, but you know, as we end this series, they are smoochin.

Speaker 1:
[78:34] And I gotta say, that was a generalized version of the story. I'm telling you, look at the court documents.

Speaker 2:
[78:42] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[78:43] It gets into the nitty gritty. It makes it even more ridiculous.

Speaker 2:
[78:47] Norm does a two-part series, gives all kinds of details, and says, I just barely scratched the surface, folks.

Speaker 1:
[78:54] I'm telling you, when I was planning my Gaming Historian episode, I was like, this could be like a ten-part documentary series.

Speaker 2:
[79:04] Good God.

Speaker 1:
[79:05] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[79:06] I mean, I can see that with all the different players involved and all the douchiness. I mean, douchiness provides a lot of content. A lot of fun. A lot of reactions.

Speaker 1:
[79:17] I mean, I was going to dedicate one episode to the making of Donkey Kong. I was going to dedicate an episode to Donkey Kong's success. I was going to dedicate an episode to like the crazy King Kong license issues. I mean, there's a lot of a lot of stuff going on here. But alas, it will forever exist on An Old Timey Podcast.

Speaker 2:
[79:37] Don't say alas.

Speaker 1:
[79:38] Oh, well, no, it's a good thing. You're right. Alas does mean. That's too bad. It's a shame.

Speaker 2:
[79:45] Tragically, you're listening to this show right now. I'm sorry, everyone.

Speaker 1:
[79:51] It's time to get into everyone's favorite new segment on the Internet, Kristin. The slop. The slop.

Speaker 2:
[80:04] Folks, we just wrapped up a segment of The Slop. We talked very briefly about the fact that we're on our 100th episode, but then it was revealed that we had no cookie cake to celebrate, so I ended up talking about Lindy West's new memoir.

Speaker 1:
[80:18] It was the sloppiest segment of The Slop so far. We bounced around all over the place.

Speaker 2:
[80:25] In fact, I'm gonna need to hose off.

Speaker 1:
[80:28] Oh man, we do have bidets in this house.

Speaker 2:
[80:31] Don't let people know, they'll be so jealous. And they'll think we're darn Europeans.

Speaker 1:
[80:37] I'll never understand why a lot of Americans are like so grossed out by bidets.

Speaker 2:
[80:43] Future topic, ding that ding-a-ling.

Speaker 1:
[80:46] Ding that ding-a-ling, hang on.

Speaker 2:
[80:50] Because Norm, there is a reason why Americans are so grossed out.

Speaker 1:
[80:53] There is?

Speaker 2:
[80:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[80:55] Why?

Speaker 2:
[80:55] I'm not telling you, future topic, you'll have to stay tuned.

Speaker 1:
[81:00] All right.

Speaker 2:
[81:01] And so will you, dear listener. But yeah, it is kind of amazing that Americans are like, ew, it's gross to wash your butt after the poop comes out.

Speaker 1:
[81:10] I like the butt. I like my butt to be nice and stanky.

Speaker 2:
[81:14] Just the way God made it.

Speaker 1:
[81:17] The days are great. They clean your booty hole and...

Speaker 2:
[81:20] They double as a water fountain. I was just gonna make that joke.

Speaker 1:
[81:26] But never mind. Let's wrap this episode up.

Speaker 2:
[81:30] You know what they say about history, hoes? We always cite our sources.

Speaker 1:
[81:35] That's right. For this episode, I got my information from the books, Game Over by David Sheff, The History of Mario by William Audureau, plus documents from the Universal v. Nintendo Court case, scanned by yours truly from the National Archives. Check the show notes for more information.

Speaker 2:
[81:51] That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to An Old Timey Podcast.

Speaker 1:
[81:55] Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts, and while you're at it, subscribe. Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/oldtimeypodcast. Join the Reddit community, r slash oldtimeypodcast. Follow us on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram at oldtimeypodcast. You can also follow us individually on Instagram. She is the beautiful Kristen Pitts Caruso. I go by Gaming Historian, and until next time, toodaloo, ta ta, and cheerio. Goodbye. Bye. See ya.

Speaker 2:
[82:27] See ya.