transcript

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Speaker 3:
[01:01] Hi, Firsties. So, we're doing something a little bit differently today. We're actually going to drop you right into our full interview with two very special guests today. We have former bachelor Clayton Echard, who found himself in a life-ruining true crime saga that is too wild to believe. Right.

Speaker 4:
[01:16] And our second interviewee is Stephani Young, the host of the hit new podcast series that chronicled Clayton's story, Love Trapped.

Speaker 3:
[01:25] So, we actually covered this story in a premium episode a few months back because it had quite a chokehold on Alexis and I. And we ended up releasing that in our main feed yesterday. So, everybody who is not familiar with the story or who needs a little refresher can be brought up to speed because it's very complicated and very convoluted. So, make sure you go listen to that before you listen to this.

Speaker 4:
[01:45] Absolutely. So, we're going to give you a little TLDR just to get you started. So, Clayton Echard first rose to fame as the lead of The Bachelor season 26, whereas Ernest Charm mixed with a controversial ending, made him a very memorable figure in The Bachelor franchise.

Speaker 3:
[02:02] But more recently, his name has resurfaced in a very different context, a messy and highly public paternity scandal involving a woman named Laura Michelle Owens, who claimed that he fathered her twins, a claim that Clayton has strongly denied while fighting it out in court.

Speaker 4:
[02:18] Right, and the situation has unfolded online in real time, pulling fans into a bizarre mix of legal drama, internet sleuthing, and questions about truth, accountability, and how quickly a reality TV star's narrative can spiral beyond the show that made them famous.

Speaker 3:
[02:34] And now the hit podcast series Love Trapped expands the investigation even further, revealing that Clayton is not this woman's first victim.

Speaker 4:
[02:42] There are three others, and Clayton has found support and camaraderie within this group of victims.

Speaker 3:
[02:48] And finally, as revealed in Love Trapped, Laura Owens is finally seeing the repercussions of her actions, felony indictments that have been handed down to her, civil judgments against her.

Speaker 4:
[02:58] Right, but there are still so many questions, and we're going to tackle those in this very candid interview with Clayton. I mean, this is an honest man. It's riveting, we can't wait for you to hear it. And you're also going to hear from Stephani, the host of Love Trapped, so buckle up.

Speaker 3:
[03:14] Welcome to The First Degree, the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jac Vanek. I'm sitting here with Alexis Linkletter. And today is a very special episode. Today we're joined by not one, but two guests. And oh boy, is it going to be a wild ride. Today we have Clayton Echard, our Bachelor from Season 26, and Stephani Young, the host of Love Trapped Podcast. And we're so excited to have you guys. Thank you so, so, so much for being here.

Speaker 5:
[03:42] Thanks for having us.

Speaker 6:
[03:43] Thanks for having us, guys. Although why couldn't you introduce me to Clayton? He's like the new salsa extraordinaire, you know?

Speaker 3:
[03:47] Okay, well, yes, he is a new salsa extraordinaire. He was telling us, we like jumped on this call. We've never met each other at all.

Speaker 7:
[03:53] They're like, how are you, Clayton?

Speaker 3:
[03:54] And you're like, I'm great. I really just like one-upped it on my salsa last night.

Speaker 6:
[03:59] That's just, that's like my, this is going on in my season of life right now. Like, this is what I get excited about is the dancing. So I just had to tell you guys.

Speaker 3:
[04:06] I love that. No, I love it. And I, I've been, well, I'll start from the beginning. Number one, I am a Bachelor girlie. So I have followed this entire story since the very beginning. I used to fall asleep reading the Bachelor subreddit. That was like my bedtime routine because I needed something very mindless to sort of drift me on. Real quick, real quick.

Speaker 6:
[04:26] Let's just start this off on a, let's just let this fly. What did you think about my decision-making when I was the Bachelor?

Speaker 3:
[04:32] I was gonna get into that. Okay, here, I do have an opinion about you because, not an opinion, but like, I really like you. You, like, I think you're very endearing. I think that you're very, you have a very good heart. And I think that you're a bit of a dummy. But like, I think you go in with good intentions and then you kind of just, you kind of just did the guy thing, you know?

Speaker 6:
[04:56] I mean, well, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[04:57] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[04:59] I can agree with that.

Speaker 3:
[05:00] I've dated-

Speaker 6:
[05:02] I do think the dummy part came from, in my opinion, growing up in a household, all boys with no women outside of my mom. And so I think I lacked emotional intelligence, and that's what was conveyed, was like I didn't know how to handle a comp, especially a situation like that, with that level of complexity.

Speaker 3:
[05:20] Can you just give our listeners a very short TLDR of what happened with you on The Bachelor at the end?

Speaker 6:
[05:27] Yeah. I fell in love with three women. I told all three of them I loved them. I was intimate with two and then I told them all about the others.

Speaker 3:
[05:34] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[05:35] Your honesty saves you though, because if you lied, that would be like villain status. But I just think it was very honest.

Speaker 6:
[05:45] Well, that's just the way that I saw it was like, if I don't tell them today, they're going to see it four months from now when it airs. That wasn't the reason why I was like, I have to tell them now. I was like, there's no way out. It was just a matter of like, this is just what I need to tell them. How else do you explain this? In the real world, this doesn't exist. The situation doesn't play out. I don't have three girlfriends at one time.

Speaker 3:
[06:07] Well, and also it's like, yeah, the whole situation is like, the whole show itself is like such a love bomb for everybody. So it's like you're having all these feelings that you normally wouldn't have. It's being pressured by the show and all the extravagance. And it's like, you're just being honest in the moment. You probably did think you loved all three of those girls, but like looking retro, like expectably looking back, do you think you feel the same?

Speaker 6:
[06:30] I loved aspects of each of them. I mean, I do think you can fall in love with multiple people at once. Yes, like if given permission. I know there's like some polyamorous relationships out there, so it's possible, but yeah, I mean, I loved certain aspects of each of them. They're different things. And so I remember thinking like, oh, if I could just like take all of their best qualities and smash them together, like that'd be the ultimate person. But again, like I just remember, like it was a whole weird situation because I'm like, I'm in love with three people. Like, how does that work? I had a thought when I was in Iceland at the end of like near the end of the show, where there was still the three of them. I'm like, I don't want this to end. I want to keep dating all three of them. Like I really had a lot of pop in my head. And I was just like, dude, you can't do this. What are you talking about? Like you got to, you got like three days to dwindle this down to one person. So this gives you an idea of like my mindset. I started to like have like, my brain was fighting with like what's real, what's not. Like can maybe, maybe we can take the show and like extend it beyond.

Speaker 4:
[07:27] I don't know.

Speaker 6:
[07:27] Like it seems like we're all pretty cool with it right now.

Speaker 4:
[07:30] Well, and what is so interesting about how you were perceived by the public as The Bachelor, so much of this kind of flows into what ultimately happened because you were targeted by someone because you were on The Bachelor. And also when it spilled, when the controversy involving the now, you know, Laura Owens, right? She spilled this out into the public ultimately, and people didn't give you the benefit of the doubt because of your portrayal on The Bachelor.

Speaker 6:
[08:02] Right. Exactly. I mean, people said this tracks, like he was an asshole on The Bachelor and he continues to be one in real life. And so it was like, I mean, everyone got the pitchforks out and they were ready to, ready to just basically come tear down the walls of everything that I had. And, and that was where again, I was, I was like, hey, look, I got to prove my innocence. So I got to take this public and I got to basically shine a light on this. And, and I did, and I think that's where she was shocked. She didn't anticipate that I was going to be like, oh, you want to take it public? Okay, well, let's really put a microscope on this. That she wasn't expecting.

Speaker 4:
[08:37] Well, you probably weren't expecting as The Bachelor to, to like end up in a true crime story, which is what this is. It's like a psychological thriller true crime story. Yeah, I mean, it's psychological terrorism.

Speaker 6:
[08:49] Yeah, it will not really was. I mean, it's what she does to people is, is again, like someone that has the capability of doing this full time because she doesn't have a real job. So her real job is just to just try to just rip men apart and she's around the clock slugging her freaking monster energy drinks, you know, on the computer 24-7. And it's just like when I have a real life and a job and, and a livelihood and you are making your sole job trying to destroy me, like, it's overwhelming. And people see that now with like the evidence, the messages. She's just, she's reckless. She has nothing really to lose and she tries to just, I mean, she's, she's good at it. She's good at conning men because she has practice.

Speaker 3:
[09:33] Yeah, professional conner.

Speaker 4:
[09:34] Stephani, the way you lay out some of this, she is, you're really showing how intelligent she is, which makes her really difficult to beat. And like, she's small, so she appears innocent. Like, it's just very, she's very smart.

Speaker 5:
[09:49] And I have to say, like, after reading through all of the communication from Laura and Clayton, obviously, I had access to all of that. I was exhausted reading through the text messages, reading through the emails. I mean, I had databases of like, this is what's talked about in this one, this is what's talked about in this one. And I mean, there's patterns throughout the whole thing, ultimatums throughout the whole thing. And I've told Clayton a million times, like, I cannot imagine living that in real time, because just reading it, I was exhausted.

Speaker 3:
[10:19] There was just, it was endless, endless. And like, didn't she have more than like 10 phone numbers? And just like, it was...

Speaker 6:
[10:28] Yeah, and that was, I mean, you know, look, I'm always like, I'm online, I'm like a little like, I'm a little surfer on the internet. I was on Reddit well before, like Reddit, before I found out there was a Bachelor subreddit. So that was always like my thing, I just scroll on the weekends, like I don't really watch shows, I just scroll on the internet. And so when I found out about, you know, like this subreddit, yeah, I mean, it's like, I now read the stuff that's been said and people are like, I don't know how he fell for this. Like, why don't you just block her? I'm like.

Speaker 3:
[10:56] You don't understand this woman.

Speaker 5:
[10:58] They have no idea. You tried.

Speaker 6:
[11:00] 13 total phone numbers. And I blocked her emails, like three of them. And again, she just kept getting through because you can create new phone numbers. So she was using Google Voice. And that app, you can just keep picking new phone numbers. So when people are like, I would have just blocked her and moved on. I'm like, yeah, that's just ignorant because I tried. Trust me, I was not trying to play this game with her. But she just ramped it up when I blocked her. She just started going after my family, my friends, my professional acquaintances. She was sending out emails to people that I was supposed to go speak at events. I had one event pulled here locally because she sent this long message. And so I couldn't avoid her if I tried.

Speaker 4:
[11:39] No, and she plays dirty. She tried to mess with your real estate license. It's scary. It's scary. And it's like the accusation she's making, right? Obviously, I'm pregnant with your twins, even though we didn't have sex. It's a thing that would bring shame upon a man, that wouldn't stand by a woman or at least try to emotionally support. And it's like, you knew she wasn't pregnant, so you're like, but the rumors and that kind of stuff, I mean, people were inclined to believe it, and she weaponized that.

Speaker 6:
[12:11] Yeah, well, I didn't fully know that she wasn't pregnant at first. That was the whole thing was like, and this is why the podcast is called Love Trapped, because trapping is a term that was very familiar to me prior to this, but not to maybe the public. The idea of like, I guess it can happen whether it's a man or a woman doing it to a person, a partner, but it's basically like forcing somebody into position where they feel like they have to support that individual. So I saw this in football, in my early days of football. We had these women in college that would know a guy was going first round in the NFL draft, and they would say they're on the pill and they're not, and then they would get pregnant. And then all of a sudden, they have access to this man's money. They become a part of his life. So trapping, that was already ingrained in my head as a possibility. And I'd seen some celebrities, people I knew, that also had something similar. You know, these stories have been shared. So, yeah, she only performed oral on me, but she ran to the bathroom the second time right away. And I thought she pulled a little, like my lawyer calls it a spit maneuver. But like, I thought, you know, she like spit in her hand, shoved it up her. And like Google told me there was a small chance if like transmitted fast enough, like she could get pregnant by it. And that's all she needed was just that little sliver of a possibility. I'm like, look, I didn't have sex with her. I know that like, like, but she ran to the bathroom. So I have no idea what she did when she went to the bathroom. And that's why she had me on the hook. There was just that little bit of doubt.

Speaker 4:
[13:39] Well, and my husband had a question, because he's obsessed with the podcast too. He's like, where is she getting, do you guys, Stephani and Clayton, have a theory about where she was getting positive pregnancy tests from? Well, we kind of know that he was taking something to test about medicine.

Speaker 3:
[13:56] Positive or whatever? The seizure medicine?

Speaker 5:
[13:59] I don't want to give any spoilers, but there's an investigation report out by the Maricopa County Attorney's Office about this and we're going to, actually, I think we get into this in episode 10. So yeah, there is evidence that she was purchasing HCG.

Speaker 4:
[14:18] Episode 10 comes out tomorrow, if you're listening to this on Wednesday, or is that episode 9?

Speaker 5:
[14:25] We were just at episode 9, so episode 10 will come out Thursday the 23rd.

Speaker 4:
[14:30] Perfect.

Speaker 3:
[14:32] I kind of want to go back a second because I want to know how Stephani and Clayton, you two got connected, and then Stephani, we got connected because in our Facebook group, in our First Degree Facebook group, everybody's talking like true crime all the time in there, and one of our First D's mentioned your podcast. They're like, has anybody listened to Love Trapped yet? It's so amazing. Everybody's commenting. I'm commenting. I'm like, I'm listening to it. You're like, hi, that's me. And I was just like blown away. I, Alexis and I both loved the podcast so much. You're such an incredible storyteller. It's so engaging and gripping, and Clayton, you're obviously incredible on it as well. So I want to know kind of how you two got connected, if Clayton, you were kind of hesitant in the beginning and how everything sort of manifested through that.

Speaker 5:
[15:19] I'll give you the short version. I work for Glass Entertainment, and in 2020, I got laid off from my current job, and my husband and I both work in podcasting and we made a deal. We're not going to apply for the same jobs. We accidentally both applied for the same job at Glass Entertainment. We got down to the final two and he got the job over me. So I took a different job for, I know, so rude.

Speaker 4:
[15:43] Did they know you guys were married?

Speaker 5:
[15:45] We weren't married at the time, but we lived together. So yeah, I don't think that they knew, and that was fine. He took the job then, and I took a different job. I loved it, had a great time there, and then I got laid off from that job. And I was like, hey guys, I'm ready. You guys have anything for me? And they're like, not right now. And then May rolled around of last year, and they're like, we have something for Stephani now. We'd love her to get on this Bachelor podcast. And I'd heard about this story already, and I was like, without a question, I'm in. So I started researching June of 2025. So Clayton had already signed on to do the podcast at that time. And I was ready to take it on, and that's how we got teamed up. Love that.

Speaker 6:
[16:25] And I did have hesitancy because for me, I understand, I understood what the commitment was going to be to put out this podcast. And I'm like, look, what's like the return on investment for this? For me, it's like, I have this real life situation playing out. So like, can I just be done with it? We're like, where do I benefit from this? Like just for me to share a story about me going through a situation like this, like there has to be something on my front where this can help. Otherwise, I'll just go spend my time elsewhere. And I thought originally it was just going to be like a podcast, like a typical podcast. And so I was like, well, I've already been on all these. I've already been on and explained this on Nick Vowell's podcast, another podcast. And so I was like, why would I do it again? But then they sent me, Glass did one of their previous podcasts. And I turned it on. And with like two minutes, it was storytelling. There was narration, and then you could hear car horns beeping in the background. I'm like, oh, this is actually professional, very storytelling mode. I was like, this is different. This isn't like the podcast I was thinking about where I'm sitting down for three hours or 10 hours. You just hear my voice. I mean, nobody wants to hear that. So I was like, okay, I actually am on board with this. So I signed on with them. And then they basically put us on, I guess, I think it was a Zoom call for the first time, right, Stephani? Yeah. So it was a Zoom call, and I was hesitant, but I'm like, all right, this is gonna be the girl on the job, like, okay. But then she came out, I didn't think anything at the time, other than like, all right, she's the person, okay, cool. Glass is just one organization, so whatever. I already signed on, whoever it is, is whoever it is. But then when we met in person was when I knew, I'm like, oh, I'm in great hands, because Stephani, she'll joke about it. She's like, I think I know more about you than you know about yourself. There's nobody that's become more obsessed than you than I have for my job, though. She's like, for my job. But I'm like, no, and she's not actually, obviously. But the thing is, it's so cool is that she really does care so much. She's put in so many hours, and I'm like, there was no way, that was my biggest fear. This story is so convoluted, so complex, you can't be half in and do this correctly. I was like, we need someone that's literally going to be up until 9, 30, 10 o'clock at night. That's going to just be working around the clock, that has to basically just go down all these rabbit holes. Stephani did it. She'd be texting me at 9, 30, being like, hey, can we set something up for tomorrow or whatever? I'm like, go to bed. What are you doing?

Speaker 5:
[18:57] My Google search is so weird. My Google search is so weird.

Speaker 3:
[19:01] I'm sure your algorithm is bizarre too.

Speaker 5:
[19:05] It's very, very bizarre.

Speaker 6:
[19:06] But her work ethic and how much she cares, that's displayed by how well this has been put together. It's blown my expectations out of the water. But going back to what I also saw or I thought this could help with was, I was like, hey, I'm still in court. So the more eyes we get on this, it's only going to put her feet to the flame. It's only going to hold her more accountable. That's what it's done. It's brought on an audience. Beyond that, I'm like, look, if it's nothing more than exposure, as long as we get the outcome we want here with trial coming up, if she doesn't take the plea deal, I'm like, then, this was successful. I'm happy. It's been a fun thing. It doesn't need to be more than that. But I was like, look, I don't know if this could flop. And then I just basically spent, what, 30 hours interviewing for what? For an ad for a podcast that's never heard?

Speaker 3:
[19:55] Well, it didn't flop. We all know that.

Speaker 5:
[19:58] Thank God, right?

Speaker 4:
[19:59] Stephani, I think too, it's like, this is a true crime podcast without a murder, right? And if you're telling someone in a quick interview, like, it's fraud, she's a liar, it doesn't do it the justice. Like, you really convey just how truly dangerous she is. And I don't think anyone could comprehend that in like a five-minute conversation. It's like, how meticulous you are. Like, it's so dangerous and disturbing, the levels to which she goes to manipulate, threaten, like really ruin these people's lives. And the idea that you guys kept uncovering additional victims, it was like, unbelievable.

Speaker 5:
[20:40] That was something that I even came across the other day. I was reading through Mike Maraccini's deposition from 2018. So before Greg, before Clayton, and I've read through it before, but I go back and read things occasionally and I'm reading through it. And there's a part in his deposition where he says, she would give me ultimatums. And then I read some of the examples, and it was literally like reading Clayton's emails. It was like reading the stuff in the court documents about Greg Gillespie. So this really is a pattern. And I don't think that it would have stopped if it wouldn't have gone public when it did and it wouldn't have gone public because or it wouldn't have gone public if Clayton wasn't The Bachelor. So, I mean, as awful as it's been for Clayton, I think that that was actually the biggest turning point in this whole story was when she finally took it public, because then that's when we found out about everybody else, and that's how it's hopefully going to stop.

Speaker 3:
[21:33] So, are we in agreement that she targeted you specifically, Clayton?

Speaker 6:
[21:41] Yeah, she was targeting successful men out in Scottsdale. And I know this because early on, like when she tried to get me to lose my license, she wrote a scathing letter to my broker. And so we sat down, he's like, who is this person? And we look her up, and he actually brought it to my attention. He's like, dude, look at like the people that she's recently followed. Like, and you could just see like the recent fall list. And it was just athletes out here in the area locally, any type of like celebrity, whatever status, and then like successful real estate guys. So she was just looking for guys that were successful, essentially. So I don't think like she went directly towards me, but she had like a wide net and was like, look, I'm casting a wide net. Who can I potentially bring in?

Speaker 5:
[22:26] You just took the bait. I just took the bait.

Speaker 4:
[22:29] You're a human. Hey, normally stuff like that is fine. Like I think about my 20s and it's like, none of it's a big deal until it is, right? Until you encounter the one in a million who would do something like that.

Speaker 6:
[22:43] Yeah, well, that was the thing is I didn't do anything wrong. I mean, I just thought I'm a single man that just like hooked up with a girl. Like it shouldn't have been more than that.

Speaker 3:
[22:50] God forbid.

Speaker 6:
[22:52] God forbid a man just has a knife. But all of a sudden, like, here we go. It's like it turns in this whole thing. And I'm like, I would be the guy. I just would have.

Speaker 3:
[23:01] Yeah, it would happen to you.

Speaker 5:
[23:02] It would, yes.

Speaker 6:
[23:03] And it would. And that was the thing. This was technically my second false accusation. Most people don't realize I had a cheating accusation that I disproved within like 24 hours. But it was like right when I came off reality television, I had some woman fake. She said I flew out to New York, hooked up with her, then flew back. She was looking at my social media. I didn't post the day before, so she was like, oh, I can catch him on this. I was able to show I had location services on my phone. But I'm over here thinking, why am I, most people never have one false accusation. Now I have two. I mean, what is going on here? Did I bring this on myself from The Bachelor days? I do think that was a part of it. I think that while she was targeting a bunch of men at once, when she locked in on me, when I responded to her message, and then we ended up hooking up, she was like, oh, this guy is not liked. So like that plays in my favor. Like I basically, he's gonna have to do the extra leg work to try to convince people that he's innocent.

Speaker 3:
[24:00] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[24:01] Yeah, that parasocial element is like such an interesting tie in to this.

Speaker 5:
[24:06] So real.

Speaker 3:
[24:07] So, okay. I'm going kind of back on the timeline. So you announced on April 3rd, 2023 that you are gonna become a real estate agent. And then, her and her mom file that Liz Max investment for the purpose of purchasing real estate. Like, what do you think about this coincidence of timeline with that as well?

Speaker 6:
[24:29] Again, I knew a guy that was in my same brokers at the same time. Good-looking dude. Like, I mean, he was just a good-looking guy. And, like, she had followed him. So I just believe that she was targeting, like, realtors again, or the athletes, or whoever she thought she could get her hands on. But yeah, she was prepping, obviously, for this whole, hey, I have this big money fund over here that, like, I want to buy two properties. And that's what she said originally. She's like, I want to buy multiple properties. And then she started going into, like, I have a friend who lives in California. She had three friends that were looking to buy properties. And so, you know, then it became, hey, like, let's buy a property and then, like, help me renovate it. And then I'll basically let you be, like, co-owner, have, like, a 10% share in these homes. So, again, I just started, and I'm like, wow, okay. I got business. And again, my parents was just like, oh, I'm The Bachelor. So, this is what I was told. Like, I was fed by producers even on the TV show. They were like, your life will never be the same. Like, you will, like, be given all these opportunities. And so, I'm like, oh, this must be what they're talking about. Like, just opportunities are spoon-fed to me.

Speaker 3:
[25:38] You're like, wow, there can't be a catch to this at all.

Speaker 6:
[25:41] No, I was like-

Speaker 5:
[25:42] Joke's on you, Clayton.

Speaker 6:
[25:43] Yeah, I was like, it's this easy, apparently. I just now start smiling and I get a bunch of deals, I guess.

Speaker 8:
[25:56] Look at him, eating whatever he wants, never gaining a pound, while I'm stuck with the boring special and can't lose an ounce.

Speaker 3:
[26:02] How's your lunch, man?

Speaker 8:
[26:03] Amazing. Yours?

Speaker 3:
[26:05] So good.

Speaker 8:
[26:06] Oh, I'm so happy for you. Cool, buddy.

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Speaker 4:
[27:03] So, Jac, since you went there with the mom opening the LLC with her, I would love to talk about the family aspects. And I don't know if that's the wrong time to do that in this conversation, but I have so many questions about what they all believe. Do they believe it? Does she believe it? Does she manipulate her family? Are they all in the same delusion together?

Speaker 3:
[27:27] They're just all scammers together.

Speaker 4:
[27:29] Yeah, I'm just like, what is that? Who funded these pursuits? Who funded her lawsuits if she didn't work? Now her family is also filing for bankruptcy. How are they all connected in this nightmare? Best to your understanding.

Speaker 6:
[27:44] Is this where you don't want to speculate, Stephani? Or do you want to take it?

Speaker 5:
[27:50] I'll let you take this, Clayton. Okay.

Speaker 6:
[27:54] I just, you know, I've been taking the floor here. I don't want to just rant.

Speaker 5:
[27:57] No, it's better if you take this one.

Speaker 6:
[27:58] Okay. Okay. Yes, her family's fully complicit. They're fully aware of what she does. Obviously, even in the episode you've heard up until this point with her dating Michael, you know, they, like her parents were like, hey, we understand what she's doing. Just like, they date her for another week. So like, and then we'll figure something out, right? Like her dad was in on this early on. The parents were, and again, like how, I mean, you can't be that dumb when your daughter's gotten pregnant by four men and they're all claiming that she's faking it. Like at some point, come on, like you obviously are fully in on it. You know, again, like some of the evidence that she's presented with her pregnant belly in a video was her sister. So her sister was providing her documents. So like there's plenty of evidence to show that the family is completely in on this. And where it's stemming from, this is my speculation, but I've also heard from people from her past that were around their circle. Her parents are successful. Her dad was very successful. So was her mom. But what I had heard and found out was that her dad was the guy in San Diego. He was a radio host. He was so well known. I mean, he was getting interviews with Obama and all these other big name people, A-lister celebrities. And again, he basically was the pride of the family. He was the big dog, right? Well, from what I had heard, Jan, his wife, did not like being in his shadow. She was successful in her own right, but she was known as Ron Owen's wife. Beyond that, he was allegedly, I think it might have been confirmed, but was cheating on her, multiple affairs. And so, what do you think that's going to do? That built up resentment between her and him, and now she's in his shadow and she knows the real him. But people on the radio don't know that he's this guy that is committing adultery, that has gambling issues apparently, and all these things. So because of that, I think she starts building resentment towards men, and she's like, this is ridiculous. I should be known as my own person, not the wife of so and so. And so I think, I believe what happened was she instilled this upon Laura, this hate towards men, where it's like when men do you wrong, you basically tear them down. That's how you get your own, that's how you get your own. What's the word I'm looking for? Your own redemption?

Speaker 4:
[30:17] Revenge.

Speaker 6:
[30:17] Revenge, yes. Yes, thank you. That's how you get your revenge. You basically, you have no self-love and no self-confidence, so what you do is like, it's a bully. A bully bully is because like they're hurt, so they hurt people, hurt people. So it's like, hey, I feel like, shit, you're up here, let me tear you down to my level so I'm less alone. It's a psychological tactic, and that's what her mom instilled upon her. It was like, hey, just tear men down whenever they don't want to be with you. And so then she learned that, and that's why her and her mom, I mean, you even see like the police video where they raid the house. This is like, she's freaking out, screaming, like, looking at her mom, like, Mom, this is ridiculous. All I did was get pregnant by The Bachelor. And she's like, I know.

Speaker 3:
[30:56] That is insane, by the way, that line.

Speaker 6:
[30:57] She's just like, her mom's like, I know, honey. It's like, what do you mean, I know, honey? Like, get your daughter in line. Like, but that's obviously like, I then, you know, I'm feeling a lot of emotions rush up. I hate her mother. Like, I legitimately hate her mother. I don't hate Laura so much because I believe Laura has been puppeted by her. Like, Laura has been manipulated by a terrible mother. Which is what Jan is. Like, she's a terrible mother and she basically, instead of like saving her daughter from her own trauma, she just placed all of her trauma on her daughter. And that's how they've created this weird bond. But like, ultimately it's like, I know Laura is going to listen to this. So it's like, Laura wake up, like your mom's not going to go to prison. You are. So like, your mom's not going to take any accountability. Your mom is not going to be there by your side. She's going to let you take the fall right into prison. And she's not going to be there for you. So like, when are you going to wake up and realize like your mom deserves to be right there next to you in prison because she's been just as complicit? But like, again, she won't wake up. She's like, it's hard because her mother is her mom. Like you want to believe your mom has your best interest in mind. And she doesn't. Her mom's a monster and she's just not aware of it. So I don't hate Laura. I hate her mother. That's my...

Speaker 5:
[32:06] I actually have a question for Alexis because...

Speaker 4:
[32:08] Very poignant, Clayton.

Speaker 3:
[32:09] Yeah, it is.

Speaker 6:
[32:10] Yeah. No, I wanted to be said...

Speaker 4:
[32:11] One's empathetic and very empathetic. And she doesn't deserve that from you when you're giving it to her anyway. So I think that says a lot about your character.

Speaker 6:
[32:19] She's just been brainwashed. And I think, look, I was even at points brainwashed in my life by people. I'll just put it that way.

Speaker 4:
[32:26] Me too.

Speaker 6:
[32:27] And it's not as hard as you think to be brainwashed, especially when you want to believe those people have your best interest in mind. You're like, there's no way that somebody would do this to me. They care, right? And so I do have a soft spot for her. I know it sounds weird, but it's like, you just were brainwashed by a monster. And she turned you into one, but you can change it, but you need to go against her. If she came out and was like, look, my mom put this upon me on my shoulders, and my mom has been telling me to do these things, and she taught me her ways, da-da-da. It would make a lot of sense, and a lot of people I think would have empathy. Well, sympathy, I can relate to it specifically. But they'd have sympathy, they'd be like, damn, we feel bad. She went to therapy, she could turn this whole thing around. But it's like, you gotta basically turn against the thing that has destroyed you, which is your mother. Your mom has destroyed you.

Speaker 4:
[33:18] Totally. Wait, still Alexis? Do you have?

Speaker 5:
[33:21] Oh yeah, I have something for you, because in this investigation report that came out from the Maricopa County Attorney's Office, it's about the indictments that she's facing in Arizona, the criminal indictments, and they found out that she did, that Jan Black, who is Laura's mom, did an interview, did not want investigators to know about it, but did this interview with them. And in this investigation document, I'm just going to read this to you, and I'd love to hear your opinion.

Speaker 4:
[33:47] Please.

Speaker 5:
[33:48] Ms. Black-Owens spoke of death threats that she had received and some additional theories connecting this to the Gilgo Beach murders in New York or the Sean Diddy Combs sex trafficking case. Ms. Black-Owens feels that this may be part of a bigger picture and agreed that the FBI might be looking into it.

Speaker 4:
[34:07] That's insane and I would love to know what she's claiming, but she sounds nuts. To tie it all back to what you were saying, Clayton, so you think with Jan, it's a worldview thing. You don't think they're doing this to a particular end to either get one of you to date Laura or actually get Laura pregnant or get Laura boyfriend. You think this is just a worldview where they're like, the man started to distance himself from you, ruin his life. You think it's general?

Speaker 6:
[34:45] Yeah. I think Jan Black hates men. I think that's what it is. Men don't deserve to be seen better than us. It's like nobody said that. You created that whole narrative in your head by marrying a guy that was more successful on paper, and you decided to say, oh, that's not fair. And it's like, again, like you hate it. That's what I believe. It's a generalized view that she holds. But also too, it's also mixed in with her family. They think they're better than the average person. They think like, there's been, I've heard plenty of people that used to grow up around them. They're like, they think that we're peasants. The average person is a peasant compared to them. Like they're high and mighty and successful and rich. And so like they look down upon people. So you have those two things mixed in. And it's like people that think they're better than others and have this extreme hate, what are they gonna do? They're like, I don't care if I destroy your life. Like you're nothing to me. Like you're just a part of my game. And I do believe this is a game to them. I think this is like they're fun. This is how they get off.

Speaker 3:
[35:42] Well, and they're obviously very litigious. Like they're suing people left and right. They're getting restraining orders all the time. Like they're trying to get any podcaster or YouTuber that talked about anything with this taken down or their account banned and stuff like that. So that kind of does go back to your point of like just trying to get revenge or to prove yourself in every kind of situation. But I also have a question because you were forced to talk to Jan. Like soon after, maybe like a month after all this stuff started happening, like how does that feel having to talk to the mother of this woman that you were briefly involved in? Because like to me that's so high school, like why are you talking to somebody's mom?

Speaker 6:
[36:21] Well I asked to talk to her mom.

Speaker 3:
[36:23] Oh you did?

Speaker 6:
[36:23] Yeah, I was the one that asked Laura, I was like, can I talk to your mom? She's like, why? I was like, I just want to talk to her.

Speaker 3:
[36:29] Had she mentioned her mom like before? Like did you know that they were?

Speaker 6:
[36:32] Yeah, she had talked about how her and her mom had a close relationship. So I was like, great, that's perfect, let me talk to her because like let me get to the person that probably is reasonable. And like let me just have a phone call with her and just have like a one-on-one discussion. And my thought or hope was that I was going to say, hey look, you know, as a mother, like you want your daughter to be with someone that wants to be with her, right? Like I don't want to be like with your daughter. So like she's saying she's going to have this, at the time it was one kid, she's like, she's going to have this child unless I date her. Like, but that she shouldn't base that decision, whether she has an abortion or not, around if I date her. Like she should either have the child or don't have the child. And I've supported that. It's her body, her choice, like, but I don't want to be with her. So like, can you talk to her and just like tell her that this is not the right way to approach this? Like you shouldn't base whether or not you have an abortion on whether or not somebody likes you. And she's like, well, you know, it's really disappointing to hear you say that because like, my daughter is really great. And I think if you just gave her a chance, you'd see like that she could like be so much for you in your life. And I said, I don't want her to be in my life. I said, I'm just being real honest with you. Like, I don't want to be in your daughter's life in any capacity. That was a one night thing. I told her I made a mistake and like, but that's it. And she's like, well, it's just like the fact that you're not, you know, man enough to like step up to the plate after you've gotten her pregnant is just really telling about your character. And I was just like, at that point, I got pissed. I was like, all right, you know what? I'm like, have a great day. And I just like hung up because I knew at that point, I'm like, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Like, clearly like this is, I'm realizing her mother is not the voice of reason. She's right there with her.

Speaker 4:
[38:10] So you think they do not believe she's pregnant. You think they know she is not.

Speaker 6:
[38:14] Oh, I know they don't. I know they know.

Speaker 4:
[38:15] But does Laura think she is?

Speaker 6:
[38:17] No, no.

Speaker 4:
[38:18] They all know it's total lies.

Speaker 5:
[38:20] She doesn't believe her own lies.

Speaker 6:
[38:21] Well, again, like if you were actually thinking pregnant, you wouldn't be altering images. Like she's really admitted to altering medical records. Again, if you were actually pregnant, you wouldn't be altering anything. You'd be like, these are my levels.

Speaker 4:
[38:33] The drinking the Monster Energy drinks while super pregnant. I was like, geez, she's so dumb.

Speaker 10:
[38:38] She's so bad at this.

Speaker 6:
[38:39] She also, I believe, there's an audio out there where she calls Ravgen, this testing facility. And in the call, you can hear her stomach going crazy, like gurgling, like making noise. I believe that she was bloating herself, like taking bloat meds to appear pregnant, because her original video is like, she was sending me videos and I'm like, I mean, I don't know, like I had to type in, I was like, female bloating on Google, because I was like-

Speaker 3:
[39:06] Oh, bloating can make you look six months pregnant, for sure.

Speaker 6:
[39:08] It can't, I saw Google images and I'm like, oh wow, like you can really push your stomach out here, like you can have issues. And so I was like, she's, but then I heard that phone call and I'm like, she's taking bloat meds or doing something to bloat herself. But then obviously like when I heard that phone call, I'm like, this gotta be so painful. So I think what happened is she changed her tactic. She was like, I can't keep this up. So she got the fake pregnancy belly, which like never, we never found it. But like obviously then after like that one like virtual hearing where she was virtual, I was in person and she's shifting her pregnant belly around and it's like moving and people are like, it doesn't move like that. He changed her tactic.

Speaker 4:
[39:43] I love that the judge said no. When she's like, can Clayton look at me and see my pregnant stomach? The judge was like, no.

Speaker 5:
[39:49] I'm like, good, deadpan.

Speaker 3:
[39:50] It's so inappropriate.

Speaker 6:
[39:52] Outside of one judge that I think there might have been some collusion with that judge, but beyond that judge, I've had really great judges that are just like, cut the bullshit. They got to be unbiased, but at the same time, it's like they also have to make a judgment and it's like, yeah, guys, come on, let's look at the obvious here. That's where I think these judges are like, no, stop. They know she's up to her antics, but they have to give a due process type of environment. So it's like, I understand we have to work, she has to have the time to say something, but like, come on, this is ridiculous.

Speaker 4:
[40:23] Laura's commitment to this is another interesting aspect because, and I'm not like one ever comment on anyone's body or anything, but she's doing extreme things to her body to prove various points. Like what you're saying with the bloating, and then we've seen, because I've seen all the video there is to see, extreme weight loss to try to prove, look how pregnant I was that she's now experiencing. And I'm like, that's just showing us where she is mentally. Like she's doing extreme things, harmful things for her body to try to prove these points.

Speaker 3:
[40:54] I think the weight loss thing, sorry, I think the weight loss thing, wasn't she saying it was from trauma, from being online bullied or something like that?

Speaker 6:
[41:02] Not being able to eat, like hold down food. But then here she goes to Barry's bootcamp four times a day. And it's like, if you were really struggling with holding weight on, you wouldn't be going and like revving your body into the ground. I saw somebody online saying something along the lines of like, when there's a whole complete loss of control around you, like some people that have went through, I have not went through anorexia, but they're like people that have, they were saying like, that's the one thing you can't control.

Speaker 3:
[41:27] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[41:27] So they're like, this is a response where she, you know, maybe had already had eating disorder in the past, but now because everything around her, she has no control over, she's controlling the one thing she can.

Speaker 5:
[41:38] And she did say in the court documents.

Speaker 4:
[41:41] So, it's common with, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[41:42] Oh, really?

Speaker 5:
[41:44] No, she did say in the 2025 DVRO renewal hearing against Mike Maraccini that she does suffer from anorexia nervosa. So that is in a court document. Okay.

Speaker 6:
[41:53] Well, there you go.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 3:
[44:41] I want to pivot really quick to Michael's case and the whole napkin lady controversy. I guess maybe Stephani, you maybe can't share what your thoughts are about that, but like, is she real?

Speaker 4:
[45:01] Because you were very careful in the episode with your language, and I appreciated that because you're like, I can't prove she's not real, and I can't find evidence she's real.

Speaker 3:
[45:12] But then there's a name, like, that's in the court document.

Speaker 5:
[45:15] So here's Karen Ilmberger. So here's what I do know. I know that a napkin was passed, or Laura had a napkin on that flight at some point, because Mike saw it in Iceland. So he knows that there was a napkin. He didn't see anybody write it. We don't know who wrote it, but there was a napkin. He did see it. And then after that, if you go to Laura and her mom's podcast Instagram page, there is a picture with Laura and this woman, Karen Ilmberger, who is a real person. I've seen her online. I've seen a picture of her online on like professional websites. And then this picture on the Instagram is the same picture with Laura on their Instagram page for their podcast. So I believe this person exists. I reached out on numerous different emails. We've reached out plenty of times. I know a lot of other people that have reached out plenty of times and there has never been a response. So that to me is suspicious. I don't know why if she said what she said is true, why we wouldn't be having a conversation. And she also wrote a witness declaration in 2018 for the domestic violence restraining order for Mike that corroborates the story of Laura on the plane. So I don't know. I think that's one of the biggest mysteries.

Speaker 4:
[46:36] I want to see her ticket to Iceland.

Speaker 3:
[46:38] I know. Let's see that seat number.

Speaker 4:
[46:40] Would it surprise you if it's like, hey, she's doing this Ted Talk. She needs like this hook to the story. This happened. She can't find the real person who wrote the napkin, even if she wrote the napkin for herself, which is something it sounds like she would do. So will you just be that person because she needs to be real for her to do this Ted Talk? Like I could see a mom's friend agreeing to that.

Speaker 5:
[47:01] She also was called to be a witness in the 2025 DVRO renewal hearing, and then you'll hear about that in the podcast, but there wasn't any witnesses called, but everyone was excited. We're like, maybe we'll finally see Napkin Lady. We'll see her in the flesh. Who knows?

Speaker 3:
[47:23] In reference to that Ted Talk, I think it's so funny because Laura obviously was positioning herself as this public figure. She was like, and everywhere that you looked, it was on her Instagram bio and everywhere, and you watch this Ted Talk that she did, and I don't think people understand that there's like Ted X can exist anywhere. It's not hard to get your own Ted Talk. I actually didn't watch it until this morning, and I'm like, is she in a green screen at her house? Because there's not an audience, right?

Speaker 5:
[47:55] No, it was a studio. She did it in a studio, and there is a green screen behind her, and there was an audience.

Speaker 3:
[48:02] Oh.

Speaker 5:
[48:03] We talked to the woman who either recorded it or owned the studio. I can't remember at this point, but we talked to someone who was there when it happened.

Speaker 3:
[48:11] Interesting. Very interesting.

Speaker 5:
[48:14] But yeah, you're right. Ted X is much different than a Ted Talk. Like, there's a national Ted stage, a Ted X talk, like pretty... Not as hard to get a Ted X talk, ultimately, is what I'm trying to say here.

Speaker 3:
[48:26] Yeah. And then, can we talk about her lawyer? Because their relationship is kind of interesting to me. He seems very gung-ho. It seems a little inappropriate at times. What are your guys' thoughts on him?

Speaker 5:
[48:41] How much time do you have? I'll let Clayton take this one. I'll let Clayton take this one.

Speaker 6:
[48:46] He's fame hungry, so he's just desperate for attention. Like, he'd been on Dr. Phil. I found that out. Like, this man's been chasing fame, and this was his way to, like, like, hitch on to something. He also, like, again, energy attracts energy. I mean, he's not a good person. He's got accusations from his past. And, you know, he's never taken accountability for it. I mean, this is a guy that dodges accountability. Like, it's his job. And so, like, it makes sense. It's like they're a match made in heaven because, like, there are two people that just basically point at their environment and say, that's the problem. It's not me. And it's like, no, it's you, bud. Like, you're the problem. Like, you should go get some, you know, help, help. But he's, he's just, he just, again, he's like trash. I mean, I don't want to say trash again. I'm trying to be kinder. Like, there's still, there's still feelings. Obviously, there's a lot of anger, like, right? Like, this is three years in the making. And even when I was going after her mother earlier, I would still like deep down to see her mother get help. I think you can't really teach an old dog new tricks. So I think when you get to that age, it's like they think they know everything. And they're just like, why would I change now? I've made it this far in my life. I am what I am. And I've heard plenty of adults say that. And that pisses me off because it's like, just because you're that age doesn't mean you know all. I've seen enough life. It's like, no, but you can still try to adapt to the new environments. But yeah, it's just frustrating because he's doing it all for free or whatever. I don't know. The whole money thing, they have money. Her dad has a pension. So I think they're feeding that money to him or parts of it or to her new private investigator or lawyer. They're just not paying me. They're just doing everything in their power. We have money, but we're just gonna drain it all so we can't pay him because they're being petty. And with Gingras, it's like the guy, it's like he's just looking to be in the know. And this guy's about to lose his license. I mean, he's destroying himself by being in this whole case. He got a DWI recently, or DUI, I don't remember which one, but he's a mess. So it's no surprise that he's here because he probably in a weird way relates to Laura. And he's got this mindset of everyone's out to get me and everyone's against me. And it's like, no, yeah, everyone's against you because of how terrible you are.

Speaker 3:
[50:55] Because of your actions.

Speaker 6:
[50:56] Because you're a narcissist. Like he is a narcissist. I mean, he has all the signs of a narcissist. And so it's like, dude, just like, I mean, get out. But of course, like he's sticking around because, because yeah, he's like, oh, I've been wronged my whole life too, Laura. So I get it. And it's like, dude.

Speaker 4:
[51:13] He's also not a good lawyer. Like putting her on YouTube is not in the best interest of his client. He keeps calling her like different, like you're different. And I'm like, what does he mean? Like I know what he means because she's weird, but like calling her different is also not good. Like he makes her look weird.

Speaker 6:
[51:30] No, he's, he's, yeah, he's, he's said like, you know, like maybe, you know, Rachel Mitchell ended up putting and giving you some fancy hand, you know, cuffs for Christmas. He's like, oh, I'm kidding. You're not going to jail. And I'm like, what kind of lawyer like that's fighting for you is over here like being like, you might see bars, but no, I'm just messing with you. I'm like, he says stuff like this for, and it's like, he lacks professionalism. Yeah, he's just not good at his job. Like he's, but again, in his world, he is, he's like, I've done this, I've done that. It's like, dude, you've wrecked her. Like you've given her all the worst possible advice. He told her to do, he basically like insinuated, he said, he alluded to her like declaring bankruptcy and she went and declared bankruptcy and the feds were about to crack down on her. She got lucky that like they dropped, she was a mutual dropping. Cause I think that would have been worse for her. I think honestly, if the feds would have pursued her, she would have done way, like had way more serious charges. And that was again, like he had alluded to it months prior, like you could just declare bankruptcy. I'm like, so he probably was advising her. And I'm like, buddy, you just almost locked her up for a much longer time. Like you just basically took her down a worse rabbit hole or bigger trench.

Speaker 7:
[52:33] But like that's all he said.

Speaker 5:
[52:35] And because she did that, she had to answer to a meeting of creditors with the, and the Department of Justice was there. So she testified under oath on two separate occasions because of the bankruptcy that she filed, that those testimonies can now be used in her criminal case.

Speaker 3:
[52:49] My God.

Speaker 5:
[52:50] She's so arrogant.

Speaker 6:
[52:52] He couldn't have done a worse job. Like he's just, he just needs to retire.

Speaker 3:
[52:56] I mean, two peas in a pod, I guess, the two of them.

Speaker 6:
[52:59] I mean, it's like, it's been a blessing in disguise. Cause like, he couldn't have been more worse, but because he's so bad, he's just made it like better for us to get justice because it's like, he's just setting her up for further penalties and charges. So I'm like, dude, you're, you're really on our side in a weird way. Like you're helping us out by being so terrible at what you do. So, I mean, I'm, I've been kind of fine with him. I just, and I was cordial at first. I happened to call with him at one point, but then he started taking digs at me. And I'm like, again, dude, at some point, I'm gonna stand up for myself. Like you're over here calling me a dick, like Stephani showed on the recent podcast. He's like, maybe if Clayton realizes he's not a dick. And I'm like, okay, dude, like there's a point where I'm gonna stand up for myself. Like I'm not a pushover. Like, and for you to call me that, like of all people, like somebody that's an upstanding citizen, one thing, okay, I might listen to him, but come on, dude, like get your head out of your opinion.

Speaker 4:
[53:51] Professional.

Speaker 3:
[53:52] I'm so inappropriate again.

Speaker 6:
[53:55] I hate when stupid people call me stupid. That's what, it's not that it irks me more. When somebody dumb calls me dumb, I'm like, if you're intelligent and you call me dumb, all right, fine, you might be onto something, but if you call me stupid and you're stupid, I'm like, oh my gosh, like I'm like, you can't even see the truth. So that's how I feel about it.

Speaker 3:
[54:14] Look in the mirror. One thing, I really wanna say.

Speaker 4:
[54:17] Oh, sorry, sorry.

Speaker 3:
[54:18] I was gonna say, didn't they say publicly like something about how she's never gonna pay you? Like ever?

Speaker 5:
[54:25] Yeah, that was in that YouTube video.

Speaker 3:
[54:26] Yeah, it's.

Speaker 6:
[54:28] He said at one point he thought that I was gonna be behind bars myself. He's like, for doing what?

Speaker 3:
[54:32] What?

Speaker 6:
[54:33] Brother, where are we going? He's like, yeah, you might see time. I'm like, for doing what? We're gonna blow job if that's the case, that all the male population is going to prison tomorrow.

Speaker 3:
[54:44] It's so nuts. And kind of speaking about you getting your justice, how does it feel to now see kind of the tables are being turned when it comes to your support? Obviously, when you went to court, you had so many people on your side, including a lot of these salacious Bachelor bloggers that usually take the piss out of a lot of Bachelors sometimes. How does that support feel to you, ultimately, kind of at the end of the day?

Speaker 6:
[55:10] It's been great. I mean, for one, if I didn't even have the original support, like, yes, there was a camp of people that were at my throat from day one. But then there was a camp that was quiet, but they were there. And they were like, you know, hey, Clayton meant well. He wasn't a bad guy. Yes, he was dramatic on this season, but he meant well. So like, yeah, he could have made some better decisions. So like I had that support. I've always had that support. They just got louder and they banded together as like this all came out because they were just like, look, like this isn't fair. This guy's went through a lot, you know, and like this he's being wrongfully accused. And like, I mean, at some point, man, how much more can this guy go through? So I had that initial camp and then that just like started to build and become bigger than me. And I mean, this would not have gotten to where it's gotten today without the support of the community, the Reddit community. And I'll give credit, Dave Neal was a big, big part of this, like him pushing out daily news, even though she was threatening to sue him. But he had his own audience that he had built. So that audience basically became married with or was, I almost, it kind of was the Justice for Clayton community. Like the Dave Neal community was the Justice for Clayton community that he was reporting on. And then that started to become bigger and bigger. And now, yeah, sure, like now at this point, I mean, it's been incredible. It's like, I have so many people that are just like, hey, we're just here to see justice be served, right? It's not even about Clayton at this point. It's about like the other guys. And I'm like, yeah, pick your hero, you know? I told Stephani like two days ago on the phone, I said, I'm not your hero. I was like, I'm not, like, I'm not. Like, Mike Maraccini, that's your hero. Like, that guy is a sweetheart. That guy, you know, has a heart of gold. Like, he's such a genuine guy. And he's got, you know, a wife. Like, he's got a family and you're just like, like, you're rooting hard for him. And I'm like, I get it. I'm the single guy that was, you know, was flippant, was, you know, on the TV show, I was intimate. Then now beyond it, I'm intimate again. Like, when's this guy going to, like, tuck his, tuck his, you know what away? And it's like, I get it. I'm like, I don't have to be your hero. Like, honestly, just like, this is a bigger thing, though, right? Like, this is about getting, seeing justice be served. So it's been really cool to see the community come together. Like, I've loved it. And I've loved it for, like, the other victims as well. I mean, like, some of the best moments have been just seeing, like, the light come back and the other victims' eyes. Like, that's, because I know what it feels like to lose that light and to feel like you're in the darkness and, like, to see that be re-instilled in them, like, those phone calls are when I saw them in person and I could just see, like, hope. I was like, this is why I had to go through this.

Speaker 5:
[57:40] I actually saw Mike for dinner this week. He was in Chicago for work. So I met up with him and he's just a different person. He's a different person.

Speaker 6:
[57:49] In, like, the best possible way of saying it.

Speaker 5:
[57:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, there's, like, a weight lifted off of his shoulder. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[57:55] Well, you know, with him, it's like it was affecting his livelihood. He was trying to have a family, like he couldn't get certain jobs. Like, that's fucked up. That's so fucked up that, like, she's making up lies that's ruining this guy's life. It's just, like, unbelievable. And then when he learned that the judge was going to, like, renew it for five more years, it's just, like, devastating.

Speaker 5:
[58:19] And then on, like, a not as severe level, but he traveled a lot for work internationally. And every time he traveled for work internationally, he'd get pulled into that back room by TSA. His wife would have to sit there if she would be with him. And it would be hours. They'd have to go to the airport, like, four hours before their flight, because every time that's on his record and he's getting pulled to the side. So it was affecting travel, job, like, all kinds of things.

Speaker 6:
[58:45] I got a little taste of that actually when I came back from Filming Perfect Match. I got flagged by TSA. What am I thinking? Not Border?

Speaker 3:
[58:56] Homeland Security?

Speaker 6:
[58:58] Yeah. When you go international, what is that? Customs? Customs.

Speaker 4:
[59:03] Customs.

Speaker 6:
[59:03] Customs, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[59:05] Yes. Yes, the customs.

Speaker 6:
[59:07] I got stopped because of my restraining order. And the guy, he was like, hey, you have an act of restraining order against you. And it was embarrassing. I had a girl behind me that I turned, she looked at me with this look of disgust because she's like, he's a woman being. Like that's what it looked like. That's what people think. It's fucked up.

Speaker 4:
[59:25] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[59:25] And I was so pissed. I told the guy my story. I was like, look, I had this girl fake a pregnancy.

Speaker 3:
[59:32] Like how long do you have?

Speaker 4:
[59:34] I told him, you know what the crazy thing was?

Speaker 6:
[59:36] You know what the crazy thing was? The guy goes, he's like, brother, because I've actually went through something similar. He's like, you're all good. I said to make sure she's out on this flight. I was like, oh, well, that was probably the best customs person I could have talked to.

Speaker 3:
[59:47] Oh my God.

Speaker 6:
[59:48] Then I walked past, I call my lawyer, Woodnick, and I'm like, how do we get this off my record right now? And he's like, you already passed the window where you could appeal. Like he's like, you just kind of have to let it drop at this point. And I was just so irate. And that was just my work. Like I do contractual work and I'm an entrepreneur. So like I don't really have to answer anybody. So when I get a job, it's just like, it doesn't really impact me. But yeah, with Mike, it did. And it's like, I mean, she just, she was, yeah. I mean, she would just not let up on him. And he went through for six years, like six years. I'm like, I only went through it for, well, technically before it went to public, like nine months, and then I started having support. I can't imagine having, you know, like six times that amount of time with her and have no support.

Speaker 3:
[60:36] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[60:37] But that's a bigger conversation about this too, because the amount of restraining orders she's able to get, and you know, you guys are into crime, you know that women sometimes often struggle to get those in the first place. So that to me is one of the big things that really just like hurts me in this story, is because there are actual people that need these, there are people that need these resources, there are people that need these judicial resources, legal resources, and they were being wasted.

Speaker 3:
[61:04] Yeah, and I think that's the biggest disappointment, obviously, other than her rooting many men's lives. It's, you know, we're supposed to believe women. We're supposed to believe women when they tell their stories and believe victims. And then you have a story like Laura Owens, and it's like, you're the reason why people don't believe women when they come out and tell their story. And it's like, how you're wasting resources, like you said, you're making people just not trust a woman when she speaks her truth. And it's like, that's what pisses me off beyond anything. It's such a disappointment.

Speaker 5:
[61:37] And I think that's why this podcast resonates with so many people, is because the things that Laura claims that have happened to her, a lot of women have experienced those things. I mean, we're talking about pregnancy, we're talking about pregnancy loss, we're talking about abortions, we're talking about abuse, we're talking about all of these things. And in one way or another, somebody can relate to this story in a way to know that what she's saying perhaps isn't the truth, because that's not a realistic reaction.

Speaker 6:
[62:02] Yeah, and we've been really sensitive, too, with making sure... Look, all of my support is the majority women. So it's like, at one point, people online were trying to peg me as a men's right activist, which I was just like, what the hell? That started to surface. I was like, why? Guys, I'm the last person. I love women. That's what gets me in trouble. If there was a world without women, don't put me on it. Take me out. But we've been sensitive to the whole thing, where it's like, yes, these are sensitive matters. Look, we're not trying to push the narrative. We should believe women, right? Laura is just one woman. There are other women out there doing it. I think it's more common than people think, but it's still not common. It's like, okay, I've gotten a lot of DMs from people being like, this happened to my friend, it happened to my brother, it happened to so and so. It's more common than people think, but it's still a percentage. We're talking a small percentage. Also, but we've been very careful with that because there was this spiraling online of like, well, Clayton is a men's right activist. I was like, okay, so I don't want this podcast to potentially feed into that. Yeah. We had this discussion and that was where it's like, well, Stephani as a woman is sharing the story, my audience, the support system is all primarily women. Ninety-three percent of my audience on social media is women. I have the metrics. It's all women. I was like, this whole movement is by women. I've been grateful for that. But it's weird sometimes how you have these dynamics that are all at play that are surfacing online, that are just thrown out there from who knows where. It's like, oh, I'm like, where is this coming from? But there's been a sensitivity to it. I just bring that up because I also, as we talked about this even earlier, I feel like I need to specify. It's like, oh, Jan hates men. So then all of a sudden, someone's gonna hear that and be like, oh, Clayton's just trying to build this movement. And it's like, no, I'm not. I just ran into one woman that hates men as well. And I just want people to like, again, we shouldn't be looking at gender. It shouldn't be the thing. It should just be like, believe the victims, believe victims.

Speaker 3:
[64:06] No, and you did do a really good job, Stephani, the way that you're telling the story. It's like, I don't get even an inkling of that at all, so thank you.

Speaker 5:
[64:15] Thank you very much.

Speaker 4:
[64:16] I don't know. I need to have one thing talked about before we end, like, deeply, I need to know. I need to know, like, Clayton and Stephani, the cinematic excellence that is the body cam experience. I, like, was on a deep Google. I've saw it from every angle. I've seen it all.

Speaker 3:
[64:37] Every placeman's different.

Speaker 4:
[64:40] I was blown away.

Speaker 3:
[64:41] I was, like, watching it.

Speaker 4:
[64:43] I couldn't believe it. What were your big take aways? Because, like, I was... What I saw raised so many questions, like, her room, for example, piled with trash, piled with clothes.

Speaker 5:
[64:58] It's a big pile.

Speaker 4:
[65:00] It was unbelievable. And I was like, what are we dealing with here? Like, this is a loss of control. Like, it's unbelievable. But what did you think? Because that's what caught my attention.

Speaker 5:
[65:10] I was shocked when that body cam footage came out. I was shocked. And like you, I have watched every angle multiple times. We're going to hear that in episode 10 that comes out.

Speaker 4:
[65:23] Tomorrow?

Speaker 5:
[65:24] Tomorrow. Yeah, episode 10 that comes out tomorrow. And yeah, you're going to hear a lot of the stuff that, a lot of the observations that I had as I watched it. We really did kind of like a deep dive and like zoomed in on some things in the casita to see what we could find. And I also think that the police officers handled everything really well. And something for you to know is that the police, that wasn't their first trip to that house. There had been welfare checks called on Laura before. So the police had been there a few times before. And another thing to note is that Laura called the Scottsdale police many times for their help to report Clayton for violating a restraining order, to report press leaks, to report all kinds of different things, almost at least 15, 20 times. So to see the tables turned and to see and to know that she had previously called the police for help on numerous different occasions. And then when they're in her home because of something she did, it's inappropriate. So that to me was shocking. And the way that she spoke to people in that was extremely shocking to me.

Speaker 3:
[66:39] Well, the double middle finger flip off was something.

Speaker 4:
[66:44] She's also shaking like violently at one point. And I'm like, what is happening? Is she having a panic attack? Is the is her world imploding right now? Like when she was holding her arms out, like trying to stop them and her arms. I'm like, is this like her come to Jesus? Is it happening? And then just screaming about her father. I was like, what is this chaos happening here?

Speaker 6:
[67:06] Yeah, that body camming for me, what it did was it just validated what I was dealing with. So when people were like, could someone really be this crazy? I was like, watch that video? Yeah, that's pretty fair representation of what I've been dealing with. Like that was it in a nutshell. It's like basically you see her at her worst, and I've been experiencing this on a daily basis, for seven months prior to her going public. And so it's like, there you go, guys. When that came out, it was just like, there, now you all don't even have to know all of the details. Just watch this video and you can see what I'm up against.

Speaker 5:
[67:41] Yeah, it's vindicating. And I also think what was really surprising is that they have 12 tactical officers in their house, and the main focus is, why are you here before 7 a.m.? Why are you here before 7 o'clock in the morning? And it's like...

Speaker 3:
[67:55] I haven't even had my coffee yet.

Speaker 6:
[67:58] That was... She gave more than a few soundbites, which of course made it... It's way into the first episode, the nice opening hook.

Speaker 5:
[68:05] And the episode tomorrow. And so on. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3:
[68:08] People are like... Just walking, come whatever they want.

Speaker 4:
[68:12] Her shrieking, her yelling about her dad, about her...

Speaker 3:
[68:14] It's just like screaming at her mom.

Speaker 4:
[68:16] It's crazy. And then you see them, though.

Speaker 6:
[68:20] They're also just so unimpacted. Like, her mom's just like... Her dad's just like, I'm fine. He's just strolling his way out in front of the make-up room. And...

Speaker 5:
[68:31] I want to know what's on the mom's phone.

Speaker 4:
[68:33] I know.

Speaker 6:
[68:34] Me too.

Speaker 4:
[68:36] Were you guys able to read the warrant? Or is that not available yet?

Speaker 5:
[68:40] We've seen the warrant. We don't know what they found, though. Right. I mean, like we've seen the police report. We haven't seen the warrant yet. We did find, you know, with this investigation report, there's some things that are reported that will be in episode 10 tomorrow that you'll hear about. So... Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[68:58] That's a teaser. That's a teaser I need to know now.

Speaker 4:
[69:01] Jac, are you... Do you have any other questions, Jac?

Speaker 3:
[69:04] I think I'm okay. Do you, Lex?

Speaker 4:
[69:06] I think I'm good, but Stephani and Clayton, if there's anything you want to add about what's coming next season, Clayton, any final thoughts just about, like, how the storytelling has really shifted this narrative? Like, it's really, I think, completely vindicated you and the other victims, which I think is so huge, because, like you said, they didn't have the platform to even defend themselves and try to convince people that they weren't lying. So, like, maybe just the larger impact and how this has changed this experience for you.

Speaker 6:
[69:38] You know, for me, what I have loved most about this podcast is the community that is being formed and has already been formed. This is like a podcast or a community where you have people that have been impacted by Laura's lies about having cancer or being sexually assaulted or having a miscarriage or, you know, domestic abuse. Like, she's claimed all of these things. And what she's done is she's triggered individuals that have actually experienced that. And what she's done through that is, like, you know, the evil that she is has united a group of people that now have a community to come to and say, hey, I came here because, like, when she started talking about domestic abuse, like, it triggered me. And I've went through that. Someone else is like, yeah, me too. That's why I'm in this group. Right. And so she's brought people together that maybe didn't have a community prior. And I love it. I see people that are like, hey, like, we should have a meet up. And we had a meet up, like, last year after the court, like, 50, 60 people showed up. And, you know, I was there on a mission to, like, just testify and do what I needed to do. But it was emotional. It was something that I saw people. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, people were really like, they took time out of their day, their weeks. They flew from across the country, like, to just be here and support. And that's incredible. You know, I think, like, for me, the biggest takeaway has just been the power of community. And I'm like, this is where there's a, there's plenty of injustices out there. Like, I've seen this online, and it's true. People are like, the only reason this guy has gotten justice is because he's The Bachelor. Like, think about all the people that don't have this spotlight. Like, and they went through things that are worse. I'm like, yeah, for sure. Definitely. Like, so that's what the thing is, is that I wouldn't even have this even be in The Bachelor if it wasn't for the community. So to me, like, this has been a really incredible display of the power of unity. And that's been, like, what I've taken, you know, from this and it's like, how, how many people can we heal? Like, how many people can heal from this experience? Because, yes, the victims directly are healing in the process and, like, we've come together. Like, I've been able to heal by talking to Mike and by talking to Greg because it's like, oh, I'm not alone. Right? Like, when I first found out there are other victims, like, the weight off my shoulders to be like, oh, my gosh, I can talk to somebody else that's went through this. And I remember it was first, it was Greg and Greg, I was like, Greg, I don't, she might be pregnant. He's like, she's not pregnant, man. He's like, she's not, I've been through this. And I was like, well, I don't know, she might have got me with the trapping. He's like, no, dude, no, I really went through this. Obviously, he'd been through three years prior to me. So he was like, dude, but to have that support and the friends that I've made with those guys, now I just texted Mike this morning, we're still, we're constantly talking, we check in and such, but we're healing. But not only are we healing, people outside, some of the biggest community people that are involved in the community, that are the ones bringing all this evidence out, have had previous trauma, that they could relate to something that Laura said, and basically that's why they're here. And so we have people that are on their own free time, providing a lot of serious help. And so I'm like, this is what this is. If you take nothing away from all of this, nothing more, take away the fact that like, Unity, this is how you solve problems. This is how you get resolution. This is how you get justice.

Speaker 4:
[72:57] I love that. And Stephani, what were your big takeaways, like worldview shift, anything from unraveling, really, this whole saga with Laura and her victims?

Speaker 5:
[73:09] I think for me, it's just been seeing like, kind of what Clayton said, like the strength of all of these people who are willing to fight for justice. It's not only the victims, it's this group of people that came together and they were willing to work together to expose the truth. And I say this in so many different interviews and so many different times, but the turning point of this entire thing for me is when Laura went public. Because if she wouldn't have gone public in September of 2023, each person that has been affected by her would still be fighting this on their own. And now everyone's come together and that's how we're going to see justice.

Speaker 4:
[73:48] I love that. Better on the ass.

Speaker 3:
[73:50] I know.

Speaker 2:
[73:51] Ha ha.

Speaker 3:
[73:54] Well, thank you guys so, so much for being here today. We really appreciate you taking the time. Can't wait for tomorrow's episode and stick around tomorrow. You guys will have a brand new episode of The Deep Dive in your feed.

Speaker 10:
[74:08] Welcome to National Park After Dark. We're your hosts, Cassie and Danielle.

Speaker 9:
[74:12] Join us every Monday as we visit a new park through stories of true crime, animal attacks, fatal accidents, miraculous survivals, and other incredible tales that you need to hear to believe.

Speaker 10:
[74:23] Our hope is that by sharing inspiring tales and our passion for protecting our planet's wild places inspires you to explore them yourselves. Find us on your favorite podcasting streaming platforms, watch us on YouTube, and follow our adventures on all socials at National Park After Dark.

Speaker 9:
[74:39] And remember to enjoy the view, but watch your back.