transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] Narcissists never want to talk about what they did. However, they'll happily talk about how you reacted. My name is Andrea, and this is Adult Child. Welcome back to Adult Child, where we take a deep dive into the impact of growing up in a dysfunctional family. Ahoy, my dear shitshows. For any new listeners, my name is Andrea. I am a total and complete shitshow, and I am an adult child of a dysfunctional family. And if you're wondering if you are, well, the chances are pretty high if you wound up here. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you probably are, but in case you're wondering, here are some common characteristics. A fear of people and authority figures. Approval seeking. People pleasing. A fear of any sort of criticism, even constructive criticism. A fear of angry people. An overdeveloped sense of responsibility. Hypervigilance. An addiction to negative excitement. Addiction. Any sort of addiction. All sorts of addictions. Dissociation. A deep fear of abandonment. Staying in toxic relationships long past their due date. An inability to speak up for yourself or say no. What else do we got? We got an inability to express your emotions or to express certain emotions. So if a few of those resonated, and I'm sure that a few of them did, you're in the right place. Okay, we curse here, you've been warned about an acquired taste, you've been warned, welcome aboard this hot mess of a healing ship. So today folks, we are diving deep with therapist Taylor Pearl, and funny story on how I came across her. So shout out to Shitshow Terry, a member of the Shitshow Community, who sent me one of Taylor's reels, where she was talking about wanting to break a bone as a kid. Maybe you guys have heard me share about that before, and Terry has, and so Terry sent that to me, and so I was like, yeah, I need to get this girl on the pod ASAP. And then it turned out that Taylor and I have quite a lot more in common than just wanting to break a bone as a kid. We grew up less than ten minutes apart from each other. We actually went to the same high school, not at the same time, and we actually went to the same rehab. Again, not at the same time, but same place. So a small world. And this is a really good conversation. So we're getting into the dynamics between the Golden Child and the scapegoat. We're talking about the differences between being the identified patient and being the scapegoat. We are talking about the grief of going no contact with a parent who's still alive. And what happens to your sibling relationships, sibling dynamics when one sibling decides to heal and the other one doesn't. So let's get on with the damn show, shall we? But first, let's talk about why you, yes, you need to damn the join. Shitshow, my online support community, where you can connect with other fellow shitshows who are doing the damn work to heal. This is a support system at your fingertips, in your back pocket, available to you 24 seven. We have a minimum of six weekly Zoom support groups. This is a community with depth and a community with a sense of humor, with a personality, a place where you can just come and be seen, heard and understood like never before. We just had a member come back to the community who went away for a little bit, who's in the middle of a breakup and going through an emotional bottom. We got him, we got you on this ship. You, yes, you, yes, you, the person that's been wanting to join for forever. I see you. How about today's day? For less than a dollar a day, you can hop aboard this healing ship. Get off that shame dinghy and hop aboard this healing ship. This is relational trauma, y'all. We heal relational trauma through safe relationships, and this is a place where you can do so. Head to the show notes or you can go to adultchildpodcast.com/shitshow, you'll see the calendar of all of our group times. Those are listed in Eastern Time. So let's just do it already, okay? Next, give me a little follow on Insta on TikTok, Adderall, Chobhaphand, and Last Monday on Least, whatever you do, please give me a damn five star radio and app on Spotify. Like seriously, please give me a damn five star radio and apple on Spotify. Thank you, love you all. All right, well, we have a fellow, how do I wanna say this? Like a fellow wanna break your arm, break a bone? That's how I found you. Somebody sent me your reel about, what did you say? Did anybody else wanna break a bone? Like when they were, somebody immediately sent it to me.

Speaker 2:
[05:14] Yeah, yeah. That one, I was just kinda sitting at my desk and was like, oh my God, I remember all the times. I wish like I had a cast or I was in the hospital and people really related to it. And I was surprised. Like, oh, this is an all of us thing.

Speaker 1:
[05:29] I don't know. No, I don't think it's an all of us thing, but I don't think it's like, it's not a none of us thing.

Speaker 2:
[05:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:36] I have a memory of like losing my shit. I don't know, maybe eight or nine on my bedroom floor. And I was taking my American Girl doll bed and I was like, hitting it on my arm. Like I just wanted to, I wanted to cast so bad. In the sixth grade, I like tweaked my knee one day. Maybe I like, you know, did a little something to it. I mean, I milked that shit out for like, I think I did nine months of physical therapy.

Speaker 2:
[06:05] Oh yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, I was so jealous. Like my brother was always the one breaking the bones. And I just, for the life of me, could not ever get a cast and I wanted one so bad. I remember too, when I was in like 11th grade, I tripped down the stairs and similar thing. I made a whole deal. I was like, I need crutches. I need to sit out.

Speaker 1:
[06:25] Yeah, and then you get the crutches and then your armpits hurt because you're not using them, right? And then you're like, fuck this.

Speaker 2:
[06:32] Yeah, yeah. But it was like really great for the 48 hours. Everyone's like, what happened? What's wrong?

Speaker 1:
[06:38] I don't know. I mean, I haven't really come across that many people that can relate to that.

Speaker 2:
[06:41] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:42] I guess, what do you think it is? It's just like attention?

Speaker 2:
[06:46] Yeah. I think, I mean, I know at least for me, growing up, I never got that kind of direct attention. And my sibling was like the problem child and I was always perfect. So it was in my mind, like, okay, if I do something that warrants attention, if I get hurt or if I have an injury, then they'll be forced to have to actually pay attention to me, give me love, like this unconditional kind of praise and support and affection that I wasn't just getting on a daily basis.

Speaker 1:
[07:14] Yeah, it's interesting with me because in most ways, like I would say 75% of the time, I felt like I was getting the attention and and care that I needed, but clearly, you know, like, I don't know how much of it was wanting attention or more so just like a cry for help.

Speaker 2:
[07:39] You know? Yeah. Yeah. Was there something that you wanted more of that you weren't getting? Or was it like, I want a different kind of attention for a different kind of thing?

Speaker 1:
[07:50] I don't know, because it almost feels like it was less about, and I'm curious what you think about this. To me, it felt less about getting my parents' attention and more so about getting peer attention. What do you think about for you?

Speaker 2:
[08:08] That's so interesting. Yeah. I was the opposite, because I felt like outside of the home was my chance to do all of the attention-seeking stuff in the way that I knew how. And at home, I could not get that. So with peers at school, I mean, of course, I always wanted more attention. But it really felt like primarily I wanted my parents' attention. I wanted my parents to give me the love and the praise and the support and like cuddle and hug me more so than my friends.

Speaker 1:
[08:42] Yeah, I think it also too could have been, in a way, it was an attempt to like save my mom or to like try to not get my mom to drink in a way, I think almost like whether if I was hurt, because I remember trying to get sick and I don't know if there was like a direct connection with some time when me being sick or hurt or something worked in some way. But I think that that probably it was probably about like trying to need her in some way. So that she wouldn't drink. Okay, let's back up.

Speaker 2:
[09:17] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[09:17] So, Taylor.

Speaker 2:
[09:19] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[09:19] We've just discovered that Taylor and I went to the same high school. What year did you graduate?

Speaker 2:
[09:23] 2015.

Speaker 1:
[09:25] I was 2007. Jeez. What the fuck?

Speaker 2:
[09:29] Not that far. That's going to be 20 years.

Speaker 1:
[09:32] What the hell? 20 years?

Speaker 2:
[09:35] Yeah. I just had my 10-year reunion and I felt old. So, I probably shouldn't say anything. 20 years. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:42] Oh. Okay, girl. So, when was the moment that you realized that your childhood screwed you up more than you thought?

Speaker 2:
[09:50] Oh, God. Well, I think it started my senior year of high school. I started to have a much different awareness that what was going on in my house wasn't normal. So, I started talking to friends of like, oh, like my dad did this and my parents do that. And I was expecting them to kind of be like, yeah, mine too. But they were a little horrified. And once my brother left for college and a lot of the attention or lack thereof was in or on me.

Speaker 1:
[10:21] What's the age difference?

Speaker 2:
[10:24] My brother's two and a half years older.

Speaker 1:
[10:25] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[10:26] Yeah. So I think at that point, I really had more awareness of like, oh, this behavior is abusive. Oh, my mom is miserable and like very unhappy. And I think also she started telling me a lot of things too about their marriage, which I, you know, in hindsight, probably also kind of me up a little bit, but gave me that extra piece of like, okay, yeah, what I'm seeing is definitely not normal. And then being such a rule follower in high school, as soon as I went to college, the wheels kind of fell off and I was like, drugs, alcohol? Yes. And things kind of spiraled from there until finally went to rehab and now I'm five and change sober, five and change you're sober and a therapist, which is like crazy, the trajectory that things happened on.

Speaker 1:
[11:24] Where did you go to treatment?

Speaker 2:
[11:26] Karen.

Speaker 1:
[11:27] I went there when I was 14.

Speaker 2:
[11:30] What did you think of Karen?

Speaker 1:
[11:32] It was literally four days after my 14th birthday.

Speaker 2:
[11:36] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[11:36] And I had severe separation anxiety with my mom. And it wasn't until the sixth grade where I was able to like to finally start spending the night at other people's houses. So it probably had been, it was like less than two years from like the first time that I could like successfully do a sleepover. And so it was traumatizing. I freaked out. Like they let me call my parents the first night. You're not supposed to be able to call your parents for like the first four days.

Speaker 2:
[12:04] Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
[12:04] They let me call my parents because I was like freaking out so much. And I was so afraid that they were gonna make me stay for the extended extra three months. You know, at that point in time, you used to be able to smoke underage.

Speaker 2:
[12:20] Oh, now they just do patches. Yep.

Speaker 1:
[12:22] If you were underage, if you had your parents' consent, you could get seven cigarettes a day. It wasn't that bad at that point, you know? It was like my parents trying to cut a problem off before it got any worse. So I was smoking weed every day and like drinking when I could get my hands on it. But you know, compared to like what everyone else was in there for. And so I was like made fun of like too for that. Yeah, it was really, it was just traumatizing. You know, like it was really scary as a kid.

Speaker 2:
[12:52] No, of course. I always think about that too, because when I went, I was 21, 22. So I had to consent. And I always think about, you know, being younger and kind of being like my parent is consenting for me. And there's that element of I don't have the autonomy in this. I'm just kind of going wherever they take me. And I actually, even though I was of age, to technically be in like the adult unit, they put me in the teenage unit, probably because my emotional maturity was like so far down. And which obviously pissed me off. But I mean, it was where I needed to be. But being around like the younger girls and hearing their stories like that, really made me reframe like, okay, I'm choosing to be here. It was a different kind of thing, even though I hated it. I was still choosing to be there.

Speaker 1:
[13:50] I think at least it was this way when I was a kid, because they were going to send me back a couple years later. You still have to sign yourself in underage. You just can't sign yourself out.

Speaker 2:
[14:02] Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:
[14:04] Because I remember my parents were going to take me, and then I told them that I was going to refuse to sign in. Then I had to spend the night at the psych ward.

Speaker 2:
[14:13] When I went, it was peak COVID. Yeah. They COVID tested you in the car, and of course, we pull up, and I'm screaming at my mom like, don't leave me here, don't leave me here. Then you have to be like, no one is going to drag you in here. You have to decide if you're going to go, especially with COVID, everyone's in masks. No one's going to come out and possibly contaminate themselves.

Speaker 1:
[14:39] But did you have to wear a mask the whole time you were in there too?

Speaker 2:
[14:42] No, I just had to wear a mask. Like when there was, I think, chapel on Sundays, we had to wear a mask if we were going, but mostly it was like zoomed. And then they didn't have any like family visits or anything like that. All of like the therapy stuff that I did with my mom, I had to do over zoom. So once they tested you and you tested negative, you spent a little time in detox, and then they brought you up to your living arrangement.

Speaker 1:
[15:11] And then was that preacher guy still there when you went?

Speaker 2:
[15:15] Oh yeah. Yes. It might have been a different guy because I think they had mentioned someone who was there for a long time had recently passed away.

Speaker 1:
[15:24] It probably wasn't the same person.

Speaker 2:
[15:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[15:27] And then would you still go into the cafeteria with the boys too?

Speaker 2:
[15:34] So, no. There was no boys in the cafeteria. I don't know if that's because of COVID or the teenage or probably COVID. But yeah, there was no boy girl interaction at any point. That was very strictly...

Speaker 1:
[15:51] Well, we weren't allowed to interact with them, but they would be eating at the same time as us.

Speaker 2:
[15:55] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[15:56] And then people would pass notes in the peanut butter and jelly baskets. Oh, that's... Yes. And then actually one day, it snowed, and they let us have a snowball fight with the boys.

Speaker 2:
[16:07] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[16:07] They let us interact with them. But yeah, that's what they would do is there was a little table where you could hide the toasters and little baskets with the little peanut butter packets and the little jelly packets and then people would put notes in there.

Speaker 2:
[16:20] Oh, wow. You guys probably are the reason that we stopped being able to keep you guys out of the area.

Speaker 1:
[16:26] Okay. I want to back up. So tell me about your childhood.

Speaker 2:
[16:32] So my group on the main line, you know, I'm sure you know living there. It's very affluent. And I think what I realized coming out of it is it's definitely one of those places where everyone has a lot of money. If you don't have a lot of money, you feel like you don't fit in. At least that was my experience. My family was so concerned with image. I think that's why also when I started realizing how fucked up things were, a lot of people were so surprised because my dad was very adamant of like, we are this perfect family. We do all these perfect things. We show face. It was just me and my brother in the house. For outside looking in, everything was very normal, quote, unquote. But inside things were dysfunctional pretty much as long as I can remember. I think it definitely is difficult to look back on my childhood and have a lot of tangible memories because there were things that I'm sure my brain has blocked out. But as I've done more work and seen bits and pieces, the vibe of my household was we all quarter off to our own spaces. If and when we're interacting, it's usually screaming at each other, violating personal space. My dad and brother would get into physical altercations. Everyone was pretty unhappy and we all really acted like we weren't until we couldn't. So I have bits and pieces of things that now I look back on and I'm like, oh my God, how did I not know those fucked up? Every time my dad got mad at us, he would pack a bag and leave it at the door. Now it would be like a cue of, I'm going to leave you and him getting mad at us would be things like us making mistakes as kids do, spilling things or talking back as kids normally do. We weren't allowed to have feelings or emotions or anything that contradicted what my dad wanted. That was a really big, big thing. For a while I was mad at my mom for not protecting us. But I think now I'm able to look back with this mentality of she was really a victim as well, and I think she did the best she could. My dad really did not allow for anyone to bypass his rule. Yeah, there's definitely specific bits and pieces that got me to where I was, where I looked at my life of I'm either going to kill myself, or I'm going to just drown myself in drugs, or I'm going to change. But I think it was all of that build up and then the denial, and like the invalidation of my experience for so long that really left me super confused and frustrated and angry, and I'm sure why.

Speaker 1:
[19:37] Yeah, you know, I think the stuff with your mom, it's like there's a healthy anger, right? Like to have there, it's like holding room for both, right? It's like expressing that anger that's valid, and it's valid to want to feel protected, but then also holding room for the compassion and the empathy of she was just doing the best that she could. So what was their dynamic like?

Speaker 2:
[20:02] My parents? Oh, horrific. My dad was the controller of the household. So if my mom ever were to like make suggestions, my dad would overrule her. My dad talked down to her, called her stupid a lot in front of us. Their dynamic was like, from my perspective, to people who strongly resented each other. I don't remember them ever like hugging or being connected in any way. Like so much so to the point, I have a visceral memory of being at a friend's house and seeing their parent, like have their arms around each other on the couch. And I went to the bathroom and called my brother and was like, this is inappropriate. They should not be doing this in front of me. He's like, no, actually, this is just kind of what people do when they love each other. And I did not realize that. But yeah, their dynamic was very volatile, constant screaming, no conflict resolution. It was like, we're either screaming at each other or we are ignoring things altogether. So it was many years where my mom tried to fight back. And then like towards the end of their marriage, I could tell she was so defeated and resigned. And by that point, it was just like, we are three people. My brother was in college, just like the three of us living under this roof, but not really coexisting at all.

Speaker 1:
[21:22] What was your relationship like with your mom?

Speaker 2:
[21:24] It was really difficult. It's better now. We're very close now. I mean, she's a completely different human, not having my dad around. But when I was younger, it was really, really difficult. I did have a lot of that anger. A lot of it I didn't even understand for a long time, but I felt pretty abandoned by her in a lot of ways. And I think there was a lot of things going on that my body knew were wrong and my mind didn't. And I think that was the piece of like, you should have stepped in. We fought a lot. I would say it was a lot of classic teenage fighting, but I also think that I was the only one in my family who really gave my mom the space to be an authority figure in any way. My brother was not having that. He kind of parodied my dad. So when there was something, like if I forgot to close the garage or left the lights on, it would be like, let's sit down for 45 minutes and I'm going to tell you why that's wrong. And I would let her because I was easy going. But she didn't have that with anyone else. So that definitely created a different kind of dynamic between the two of us.

Speaker 1:
[22:45] And then when did your brother start acting out?

Speaker 2:
[22:48] God, from like a very young age. Yeah, I think early on, we slotted into different roles. And I can't remember a time where there wasn't like something going on with my brother that overshadowed everything else. Even like my birthdays and graduations and things, it was like, something's going on with him and we have to handle that.

Speaker 1:
[23:09] Was it behavioral or drugs or what?

Speaker 2:
[23:12] Behavioral, very much behavioral. Yeah, he was very angry from a very young age and he still is pretty angry. But it's almost like looking back, like we have home videos and stuff and it feels like a flip kind of switched or a switch flipped. And he went from being like this happy kid to just like angry all the time. And as a result, he was like, I want to be angry. He like really leaned into that. There was always like conflicts with his friends, conflicts with my parents. Like he would never, it was never a situation where he was just kind of breezing through unnoticed. He wanted to make a scene and he did constantly. And then I was like, oh, like you're his little sister. I'm like, okay, well, I have to overcompensate for sure.

Speaker 1:
[24:09] Did he ever get like sent anywhere?

Speaker 2:
[24:12] No, my parents tried to do the therapy thing with him. But, you know, I think it's hard when the two parents aren't aligned. Like my dad did not, he was not doing therapy. He did not like it. My mom put me in therapy in like eighth grade. And of course, I'm like, sure, I'll do whatever. But they tried to do that with my brother. He was not having it. And then as soon as he refused, you know, my dad's not pushing it. My mom can't win that fight on her own. So them not being unified, nothing was going to come of that.

Speaker 1:
[24:46] So then in middle school, is that when you started to have mental health struggles?

Speaker 2:
[24:51] Yeah. Yeah. That was when the first thing that kind of showed up for me was the disordered eating. That was like my first attempt at gaining control. And I don't think I even understood what I was doing or why, but I noticed this is something that I can do. And of course, my parents didn't notice, but my friends did. So that was, the restricting was a big, sounds odd to say, but very empowering for me at the time. I didn't have any other outlets to express myself, and it really felt like this is something that I can do that no one can take away from me. That and some of the self-harm stuff. And I think that very much was a cry for help, and I didn't know how to tell my parents, but I wanted them to notice it so bad, and they didn't. Hmm.

Speaker 1:
[25:48] Well, then obviously, at some point they did, if your mom sent you therapy in 8th grade.

Speaker 2:
[25:53] Yeah. My mom, I think my mom sent me to therapy more so because she knew how terrible my dad was. And she saw me starting to like seek out attention from boys and men and all that. And she's like, her whole thing has been, I don't want you to turn out like me. I don't want you to be in a marriage like this. So I don't know if it was, she never told me specifically why she sent me to therapy. It's probably a combination of all of these things. But yeah, started started therapy in 8th grade. And I don't think I really made substantial changes or gained awareness towards the end of college, maybe.

Speaker 1:
[26:40] Do you remember talking about what was actually going on in your home?

Speaker 2:
[26:44] I don't, but thinking back, I thought my dad was the greatest person alive for a really long time, because that was how he wanted me to think about him.

Speaker 1:
[26:57] So you were like the classic like narcissist golden child.

Speaker 2:
[27:01] Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I would very much describe my dad as a narcissist, and like learning more about that terminology was super validating for me. But yeah, I really, I so badly wanted him to love me, and I thought that me showing up in the way that I was, was just me loving him and him loving me. And I thought, you know, he's so fun and there's moments he's bad, but like he's so fun over here and he's bringing me candy, and he's buying me all these things. And yeah, very much a classic narcissistic golden child, polar opposite of my brother.

Speaker 1:
[27:40] My brother. I want to circle back to that later. So then when do you feel like you had a moment of clarity with your dad?

Speaker 2:
[27:48] I don't know if it was one specific moment. I think after my brother left for college, there was a lot of different moments where, you know, as I was getting older, especially as my body was changing and I was becoming more of a woman, I think there was a lot of things that I was like, this is weird and I'm telling you, I don't like this and you're still doing it. And, you know, things like that started kind of the domino affecting my mind, then talking to my friends. And I think it really was just a buildup. And I remember the moment where I was like, oh, this is fucked. I guess there was a moment. My parents, when they sat me and my brother down to tell us they were getting a separation.

Speaker 1:
[28:33] Were you in high school still or you were in college?

Speaker 2:
[28:36] No, my mom waited till I turned 18.

Speaker 1:
[28:38] Of course.

Speaker 2:
[28:38] That was the whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[28:40] Yeah. Are we gonna stay together for the kids while we fuck them up?

Speaker 2:
[28:45] Yeah. I mean, you know, I feel like it probably would have been horrible either way, but definitely it happened.

Speaker 1:
[28:51] It is what it is.

Speaker 2:
[28:52] Yeah. But I remember they sat me and my brother down and they told us they were getting separated and me and my brother started laughing. So we're like, yeah, of course you are. You hate each other. And my dad did not like that at all. He was like very much the victim. I'm blindsided. This is terrible. You should not be feeling this way. And I got up and walked into the kitchen and like our garage door and was connected to our kitchen. And I remember my dad like backed me into a corner and he did this thing where he would like grit his teeth and talk through gritted teeth. And he started doing that to me. And I was like kind of cowering and he really, it felt like he really wanted me to be afraid of him. And I think that moment really clicked to me like, oh, this is not love. This is power and control. This probably isn't going to change. But it took me till I graduated from college to really sever ties with him because I was grieving a lot. Yeah, my college graduation, my parents, I don't know if they were officially divorced at that time, but they were both dating other people. My dad had surprised us with Random Girlfriend, which was super fun, but I didn't know his girlfriends. He got engaged to this woman very quickly and he wanted to bring her to my graduation. I did not want that, but I wanted my mom's boyfriend to come because he had stepped up for me. He'd been around and he's still around. He's wonderful and I wanted him there. In my mind, I'm like, this is my day. This is the biggest thing I've ever done. I've dragged myself to the finish line. I don't even know how I got here. I want to have the people here that I want and my dad, he's very enmeshed with his parents. All of this was a big shot to his ego. I remember there was this dinner that my friends were having and I wanted my dad to come and it was at the hotel he was staying at. He just didn't want to be there. He didn't want to celebrate with me because he couldn't do it in the way that he wanted and I had him to find my friends at the time. I remember looking at the map and I went to University of Maryland, it's close to DC. I remember looking and he was in DC and posting all these pictures with his parents and his girlfriend. He'd use the weekend to have a trip with them and not allow it to be about me in any way, shape, or form. He didn't want to be around for any of the things. He didn't want to celebrate. He didn't want to congratulate me. He just wanted to do what he wanted to do, which was have a trip to DC with his people. I called him and told him he really hurt me and he blew up in my face, as he always did. And I think I was so tired of hoping he would change. It was just exhausting at that point. And I was done. I was just done. And my brother had already cut him off at that point, which kind of helped me feel stronger in doing that too. But I like soft launched it of like, I need space from you. I'm not going to block you, but please give me space. I'm really hurt. And he couldn't respect that. He would call me and send me texts telling me how terrible I am. So I had to just block completely.

Speaker 1:
[32:40] And how long ago was that?

Speaker 2:
[32:42] Seven years ago.

Speaker 1:
[32:44] And have you had any contact with him?

Speaker 2:
[32:47] The only contact that I've had with him, he's sent a couple of e-mails and they've all been very aggressive and mean. And he primarily sends like, e-mails and letters addressed to my brother and will CC me. I guess I don't know why, but the only time he's-

Speaker 1:
[33:07] Do you live with your brother?

Speaker 2:
[33:09] Now?

Speaker 1:
[33:10] Yeah. No, my brother has his own. Well, you said send letters and CC. Oh, you mean e-mail?

Speaker 2:
[33:17] E-mails, yeah, like e-mail letters.

Speaker 1:
[33:19] Like in the mail. I thought you were like snail mail.

Speaker 2:
[33:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:23] I guess you can't CC somebody on a snail mail. I don't know what I'm thinking.

Speaker 2:
[33:27] I mean, maybe one day. I don't know. But yeah, he would send these very long letters about how much we pained him. But they were always directed towards my brother and I was just kind of like an afterthought. But actually, when I started posting on my professional Instagram, doing all that stuff, I really made it a point not to block him. I don't know if part of me wanted to be like, I get it.

Speaker 1:
[33:54] I get it. I get it, girl.

Speaker 2:
[33:56] How much I've succeeded in the face of all of this. But he messaged me on there, sent me a bunch of weird AI music videos of like people singing about how much they love their kids and how they would like walk through glass for their kids. Yeah, I was like, please stop. Bear me. Yeah, then I could tell he's been involved in those like estranged parent therapy-esque groups because he sent me a message that felt so formulaic of like, this is what you should say to disarm your child so that they will want to talk to you again. And I just like saw right through it, felt like it was bullshit, made me very much more angry and was like, leave me alone. I don't want a relationship with you. If I do, I'll let you know. But like, you don't have access to my life anymore and that I blocked him. So, who knows?

Speaker 1:
[34:56] Do you have a relationship with his parents?

Speaker 2:
[34:59] No, they are, his whole side of the family doesn't speak to me or my brother. It was like, when we cut off my dad, they went with him. Like people on his side have like, unfriended me on Facebook and stuff like that. Even though, you know, in my mind I'm like, I'm still a kid, a child, and you want nothing to do with me. And that was a big sticking point for my dad, was like, his whole thing that to try to get me and my brother to talk to him again, was the guilt tactic of like, your grandparents aren't going to be around for a long time. You should talk to them and by proxy, me. And yeah, none of them ever tried to reach out to me. So I think in my mind it was like, these people are an extension of you.

Speaker 1:
[35:46] Was he the Golden Child?

Speaker 2:
[35:48] Yes. Oh my God. I have like flashbacks of my grandma, like saying how perfect my dad is at every single holiday. And my grandpa used to like criticize my mom, her personality, her body, like everything. Cause you know, no one's good enough for their kid. But looking back, it makes sense why he is the way he is and why he thinks like he shits gold cause they told him he did.

Speaker 1:
[36:15] Okay. So what, and I have a few places I want to go, but I just kind of want to like grab, tie up some loose ends with the family stuff. So what did repairing the relationship look like with your mom? And like, what did, what did healing look like for her from healing from that relationship?

Speaker 2:
[36:31] Yeah. I think with my mom, I mean, I think in a lot of ways we are still healing. I think it's like a never ending process, but I think one of the biggest things to repair was my mom actually had the ability to acknowledge all the ways that she had hurt me and all the ways that she didn't show up in the ways that I needed her to. And I think it took a while for her to really see that and come out of her perspective of it. But once we were really able to hash all that out, and I think it actually started in Karen with like a lot of these sessions, I would like come with a notebook and really identify these things and what I needed from her. And she was very willing to listen and hear and wanted to fix things. So I think that consistency for me was really healing. And time probably too, seeing her show up differently, seeing her put in effort, and seeing her act on the things that she told me she wanted to change, that helped me a lot. In combination with me like actively deciding to let go of a lot of these things that I was angry about, I held on to them for a really, really long time and getting sober. I realized a lot of these things were just like weighing me down. I didn't want to carry them anymore. And with my dad, it felt impossible. I'm like, I'm not going to put that down. But with my mom, it was like, okay, I can either acknowledge that she's making an effort and try to repair or I can just be angry at her forever. And I chose to acknowledge and rebuild.

Speaker 1:
[38:20] So I'm curious when you were at Karen, so like I got sober in 2008. And it wasn't until I was, seven years sober, but like really nine years sober when I came to terms with my own trauma. And so I'm wondering, did you feel like by the time, I mean, when I was getting sober, complex, people weren't talking about complex trauma. People weren't talking about this stuff. And so I'm curious, like when you were in treatment, if there was like much more of an emphasis in understanding that there's trauma that's underlying this.

Speaker 2:
[39:11] Yeah, there was. I think they actually did a really great job with that. And that was the first time that anyone had even told me that I experienced trauma. I remember when I was there, they had you meet with a counselor and then they had you meet with, I think it was like either a psychiatrist or psychologist who would diagnose you. And they gave me a PTSD diagnosis and I was pissed. I was like, no, no, that's ridiculous. Like, I saw trauma as a thing that equaled war veterans or like physical abuse or these things.

Speaker 1:
[39:43] Yeah, getting raped, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[39:45] Yeah, no one had ever told me that trauma could stem from like significant emotional abuse or any of these things that I had experienced, so.

Speaker 1:
[39:55] Not even significant, I mean, it could just be small emotional abuses that add up over time.

Speaker 2:
[40:00] Oh my god, yeah. And so that for me, I was infuriated because I felt invalidated. I was like, no, I'm depressed, I have anxiety, I don't have PTSD. And then they had this four week class thing about trauma and the brain.

Speaker 1:
[40:15] How long were you there for?

Speaker 2:
[40:17] I was there for 28 days. Yeah. But during that whole thing, like I'm very type A. I like to have answers and plans and structure and rules. And when they're explaining to me like some of the chemistry and the biology of the brain, I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I am all of these things and all these things are me. And that makes a lot of sense. But after that, I think it took a couple more years for me to really pinpoint all of the little things and how they correlated to the way I was still behaving and showing up. Because even after I left Karen, I was still, you know, I'm like, okay, I'm sober today, but like, I'm still me. I'm still carrying all of this. So it took time after that to acknowledge and actively try to show up differently and like rewire my nervous system. No one even introduced the concept of complex PTSD to me, like no therapist. I learned about that in grad school. That was like the first time because I did a, my program was really oriented around trauma. And that was the first time I heard about. So I think that was very eye opening for me in a lot of ways. And that also like made me very passionate about like the section of work that I wanted to go into. Because I think there is such, I don't know, from my experience, there's a lot of limited validity around all the different ways that trauma shows up, all the different ways that it can look different, and how people have different responses to it. And even people who grew up in the same household respond to it differently. So that made me kind of go down my own little rabbit hole of like, okay, I need to learn more about this and understand this, not just for me, but like I want to work with people who see themselves in this behavior too.

Speaker 1:
[42:09] So when you got into treatment, did you start doing 12 step recovery and all that?

Speaker 2:
[42:14] I did. Yeah. I have like certain feelings about 12 step and stuff like that. I think it worked for me in a lot of ways. But there was also a lot of ways and maybe it was because I was resistant to some of the things, but I think there were a lot of things that were hard for me. Like what? A lot of the meetings that I went to, there was a lot of rigidity around rules and structure, and like what sobriety had to look like. That was tough for me because I'm so black and white, I'm so all or nothing, and not having, I guess, the leniency to be imperfect with some of these things was really difficult.

Speaker 1:
[42:55] But like one in particular?

Speaker 2:
[42:57] There were some people who would say like, oh, if you're taking antidepressants, you're not sober. If you don't adhere to the 12 steps in all of these specific ways, then you're not doing it right. Or if you're not doing this, then you're going to go to jail and die. And I was like, oh my god, like that, I couldn't adhere to that. It became a space to me where I would notice myself sharing things that I thought other people wanted me to say. And it was like kind of a light bulb of like, okay, I'm no longer leaning into any kind of authenticity here. I'm performing, which is my MO of to get people to like me. And I took a step back from it. And then I didn't hear from any of the people that I had met. So I was like...

Speaker 1:
[43:45] How long were you in? Like, what made that happen?

Speaker 2:
[43:48] I was probably involved in it for like two years. But yeah, like I know a lot of people who it has worked really well for. And I think if it does work well for you and it is effective, then that's amazing. I just was not one of those people who vibed with it.

Speaker 1:
[44:07] I mean, it saved my life and it was like such a huge part of my life for a long time. And honestly, like when I reflect back, the first few years of my sobriety were probably the happiest like years of my life. But it doesn't, you know, the 12 steps aren't designed to heal trauma. And so, you know, I had to do deeper work. And now I just view everything through such a different lens. It's hard for me to not view everything sort of through the lens of trauma. So it just doesn't hit for me in the same way.

Speaker 2:
[44:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:44] So one thing that I was just thinking about this when you were talking about your brother and you were talking about your dad. And it's just something that I've been thinking about the past couple of days. Like the difference between like the identified patient and the scapegoat like through a narcissistic family system, like we're a scapegoat picked by a narcissistic parent versus a scapegoat that is more so picked through like being the identified patient. And the difference is there because I was thinking about that like for myself. So I think the difference is like when it's coming from a narcissistic parent like where somebody is targeted, it's a lot more of like a moral sort of judgment. It's like a, you were bad, you know, like you're to blame. But it's real, it's different when it comes through being the identified patient because it was never, you're bad. It was like, there's something wrong with you. You know, like there's something wrong with you. And I think that with the narcissistic scapegoat, I think obviously the abuse can be a lot more severe and harsh. With the identified patient, it's like almost being pointed out as a way almost where it seems like it's, it's like to help you almost too. And so I was thinking about that, like with my experience of getting sent to like a therapist for, for separation anxiety as like at, at nine years old. So it's like you're sent. And you know, whatever is being manifested, like this is just an expression of like what's not being addressed in the home. But then when that's not being acknowledged, like in, in the therapy, right? Like the kid, you know, internalizes that, that they're, that like, I'm the problem. There's something, there's something pathologically wrong with me. And even if the therapy is helpful in treating whatever the behavior is that brought the kid in there, it's still going to ingrain that belief that there's something pathologically wrong with me, even if it gets fixed, because it's still never been acknowledged that the behavior that you're exhibiting isn't because there's something wrong with you, it's because of what's going on in your home. And so I've just been thinking about that for myself, about how, how I really feel like this has created some, like really sort of like fucked up insidious wounds, you know, where, and the other thing, sorry, I'm just like ranting. The other thing I was thinking about too is, what was it? Oh, just the thing for me that really comes up is like, I don't think that I'm not smart. I'm not talented. I'm not capable. I think I'm all these things, but there's, it's just this ability for there's something that's so fucked up about me that I can't even access that stuff. So yeah, that's just, sorry, I'm just went on a rant, but it's just some, something that I was thinking about.

Speaker 2:
[47:49] Yeah, no, that's super interesting. I think that point you bring up of that, like what happened to you versus what's wrong with you is huge. And I think in thinking about like my brother and me in the different ways that we've coped, I think, I mean, we both have leaned towards the like, something is wrong with me in different ways. But I think my healing has been how can I push back against that and offer compassion for like what happened to you? I'm still feeling like I will forever be kind of fucked up. But my brother took the different approach of like, no, this is who I am. Like he sees all of these things. My parents trying to, or my mom trying to get him to go to therapy. The way that my dad treated him, he thinks that's just him. That is who he is. This is his personality, his ethos as a whole is, I will always be this person. That's it. Period. Done. But I think him and I, you know, it's been, our relationship's been really tumultuous since I got sober because I wanted to push past that, sitting in this is who I am, and try to find ways to be like, okay, this is who I am. And how can I not be this miserable person who just like wants to drive my car off the road? And for him, he's very resigned. I think he's comfortable being angry, which, you know, I can understand that too. But it's caused a big, a big rift in our dynamic and something we're still like actively working to repair. But it's really, it's painful and sad as someone who loves him so much to see that that is what he just thinks about himself. And I think a lot of that about myself. I think the differences I had, I don't know, I think I had a little bit more confidence in who I was outside of our home that gave me a different kind of structure and confidence in a weird way. So my thing of I can put on whatever mask to be whatever person made me feel like I can shape shift in this weird way. But he, he was always himself everywhere, always, I mean, which I always admired. And also I think didn't give him a lot to fall back down in terms of how can I adapt? So, yeah, I don't know. I just kind of went on a little tangent too, but I think that that sparked that in my mind.

Speaker 1:
[50:42] Well, one thing I want to say, because I feel like maybe like I almost feel like the way that I was talking about it was like I was making it seem like, like the identified patient wound and like the more traditional narcissistic, what I'm like saying was like one is more like, I'm not trying to say that the identified patient one is like more damaging than the other, it's just different. I think that what you're talking, what you're speaking about like with your brother is not something that I necessarily have had to deal with, because I think it's from that respect, like what he experienced is like he really internalized like that I'm a bad person. Yeah, you know, like I'm bad. And that's one thing that I was thinking about too with myself, is that I'm somebody that I think compared to a lot of people with complex trauma, adult children of dysfunctional families, it's a little bit easier for me to make a mistake and be able to own that like, I did something wrong, but then that but not to make it about me being wrong. Like I'm able to apologize for something that I did without apologizing for who I am. And I think it's because I didn't really get that piece of like, you were bad, you know, directed at me that like I think a lot of people did, like from the parents. So I just think that with the identified patient wound, I think it's a little, it's more subtle. It can be like harder to like pinpoint or even know that it's there and it's sort of operating in ways that you're not conscious of. But I think the damage to one's identity and sense of self is so much more severe when it's coming from that more sort of traditional scapegoat role where like a child is deemed as like there being something morally wrong with them, like with what you're talking about with your brother.

Speaker 2:
[52:44] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[52:46] Because it's like for him, he had to like, that was the safest thing for him to do was to believe that that was the truth.

Speaker 2:
[52:53] Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's a lot. I think it's a lot more difficult to swallow that like, no, this isn't you. This is just like the fucked up nature of the person who was meant to love and protect you. And yeah, I don't know. It's even interesting to this day, like my brother suddenly has a lot more compassion for my dad. Whereas I am like, no, no. I think he, yeah, it's an interesting thing where he's like, you know, everyone in his life has cut him off. And, you know, that makes me sad. And I think he sees a lot of himself in my dad and like what his future could look like. And so he has suddenly like gained this compassion for my dad. And I don't know, I'm not, I don't feel that way. I don't have that level of compassion for him. And maybe that's like my own shit of my kind of anger. But I don't, I'm kind of like, you made your bread, you know?

Speaker 1:
[53:58] So has it been, I would imagine that the dynamics between you and your brother, it probably is getting more challenging like as you heal more and more.

Speaker 2:
[54:12] Yeah, yeah. I mean, before I got sober, we were like very enmeshed, trauma bonded. He was my drug buddy, like, you know, we call and just like be miserable together. And when I decided to not, you know, be that person anymore, or at least to try to not be that person, I think he felt very abandoned by me. So his way of responding was like, I hate you, you're a horrible person. You know, you were the one person who I relied on, and now you are not that person. So it's been, I think we've been slowly, I've been trying to get him to get to know this version of me, but it's been a challenge. And I think, you know, it was very hard for me in the beginning to not feel like I, me doing these things to help myself was hurting him so much. Like, how can this be good if he is so angry?

Speaker 1:
[55:10] And the guilt that comes from that, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[55:13] Yeah. And I like remembered that I wrote him a bunch of letters. And I, you know, it just, it's taken a lot of time for me to feel okay with taking care of myself. And even though that has gotten in the way of our relationship, I know that ultimately that has what has kept me alive and going, and it's important to me.

Speaker 1:
[55:37] Yeah, I mean, that's like a part about, I mean, you probably, I'm sure you had the awareness that your relationship with him was not, you know, perfectly healthy. But I think that that's one thing that we don't necessarily always anticipate is just the changes that it will have on relationships that maybe we didn't like view them as being incredibly toxic, you know, just like when you stop, what happens when you stop playing the role that you always played?

Speaker 2:
[56:09] Yeah, that, the grief of the person that I used to be or thought I was like the amount of grief work that I've had to incorporate into healing my trauma and stuff, something I never anticipated, I have been like in the early years of my sobriety and readjustment like been tremendously lonely. And it's a really difficult thing to wrap your head around like I'm doing all these things that people say are right for me. And like I feel like I have no friends and like my family's mad at me and all of these things, because I am deciding to not be the person who they either think I am or who I have been, or even just like the people who I was around who were not healthy for me that I chose to not be around anymore. And it really is this like lonely and kind of isolating thing of I'm rebuilding from the ground up. And being like in your mid 20s, where no one is like forcing you to go to school and these activities and hanging out with people.

Speaker 1:
[57:11] It's hard to meet people, it's hard.

Speaker 2:
[57:13] Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[57:14] Just wait until you're 37.

Speaker 2:
[57:17] Yeah, but it's that grief work too was like-

Speaker 1:
[57:21] So what does that look like?

Speaker 2:
[57:23] Yeah, I mean, for me, I mean, I think at first there was a lot of like acceptance around, oh, I'm grieving because it was yet another thing that I thought like, if I don't have this like tangible physical loss, it doesn't feel valid. So it took me a long time to even acknowledge like, okay, I am grieving. I can accept that. Like this is what grief has looked like for me. And then spending a lot of time kind of like offering myself compassion and nurturing and just like giving myself the space to be really fucking sad. And a lot of my grief work has centered around my dad primarily and something that I still like navigate on a daily basis of things will happen. And I will like grieve the parent that I don't have that like, oh, you know, we're not going to have the father daughter dance or like, he's not going to walk me down the aisle. He won't know my kids. And it has been like that never ending kind of a process of like acceptance, self-compassion and like letting myself feel it instead of trying to tell myself that's not real. That's not like an actual big thing. So that's been another powerful piece for me too of, you know, recognizing, okay, I can grieve what I lost, but I can also grieve what I never got.

Speaker 1:
[58:42] Yeah, no kidding.

Speaker 2:
[58:43] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[58:44] Yeah. I posted something of grieving a parent who's still alive while longing for the parent you never got.

Speaker 2:
[58:49] Oh my God. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:51] So what about like, has there been anything like intentional in trying to get like the emotions out? You mentioned writing letters to your brother, but like, has there been anything like that's been a little bit more intentional in trying to grieve that's been effective or helpful?

Speaker 2:
[59:10] I mean, I think honestly, like writing my thoughts down has been the primary medium where I have kind of processed a lot of this because there is, or let me rewind. For a long time, I thought the only way that I could like deal with it and process it is if I had someone else like validating it for me or responding to it in the way that I needed. So I think for me, what's been most powerful is doing that and learning how to do that for myself. And a lot of it has taken the form of like letter writing. I've written a lot of letters to my dad. I've even written letters that are like him writing to me of like saying all the things that I would have wanted him to say. Stuff like that. But I also think in a way too, which I'm sure a lot of other therapists feel, but as I sit with clients, not helping them like navigate some of their grief, also gives me different insight into like, okay, what are pieces that I still need to work on for myself? And there are a lot of pieces still there that I definitely need to do more intentional work around.

Speaker 1:
[60:19] So what has your experience been putting yourself out there, like publicly now on social media?

Speaker 2:
[60:25] Yeah, it's super scary. I'm a theater kid. So like, you know, being on stage, having everyone look at me and like clapping for me, you know, I'm like, great, love that. That's amazing. But there is so much vulnerability in it. And especially being someone who has historically cared a lot what people think. I am kind of putting myself on the chopping block and being like, judge me, have opinions about me. And that's very scary. It is, you know, every time I remember when I first posted like one video about something and someone like wrote a whole comment disagreeing with me, and I deleted the video, I was like, oh my God, I'm wrong. I'm wrong. And I think it's taken time for me to like grow that muscle of, you know, I can have opinions. I can share my truth. And actually, like my, my boss, she, she's a fairly big platform and she posted this whole thing about like the bean soup theory. I don't know if you've heard about that, but like this idea of, you know, everyone having access to social media, people really are quick to say like, this doesn't apply to me. Like someone posts a recipe about bean soup and it's like the comments are, what about those of us who don't like beans? It's like, well, then this obviously is not for you. But her kind of talking more about that and me letting that sink in, it's like, you know, there's always going to be people who disagree and they're allowed to. They want me to know and they're going to let me know. And I mean, my platform is by no means like massive and substantial. But it is interesting how things get passed around. Like one thing kind of, you know, will relate and get passed around and people will have a lot to say. And I've had to grow a different kind of muscle in putting myself out there like that.

Speaker 1:
[62:22] Have you noticed like, are there certain like negative feedback that you can like let roll off your back and then other things that sting more?

Speaker 2:
[62:30] Yeah, I think the comments that are centered around like me being a therapist and also like being authentic about what I've experienced. I think I've had an ease gear time letting those roll off my back because I've been so intentional about, you know, I was, I came to this work because of what I experienced. And I find that authenticity and relatability is like one of the most wonderful things.

Speaker 1:
[62:56] Basically saying that you should not be sharing about your experience?

Speaker 2:
[62:59] Yeah, yeah, like, you know, I wouldn't want you to be my therapist kind of a thing. And it's like, okay, well, I mean, I don't have to be, that's okay. And I also don't see in session and be like, let's talk about me. Those kinds of comments, like I'm pretty quick to be like, okay, like that's why there's a bunch of different therapists. And you know, you don't have to agree with me. You don't have to like how I show up. I'm okay with that. You, that's okay. Stuff like that. Whereas I think someone who is arguing with, trying to argue with something I'm saying from like a clinical perspective is more jarring for me. Because I know like there's always so much more to learn. I am very green. And you know, I want to be as well-informed as possible. I don't want to say something that is false or harmful in any way. And so I think, I mean, I don't know who these people are commenting, if they have credentials and education and stuff. But I think it definitely makes me pause of like, okay, you know, that imposter syndrome kind of coming back up of like, who am I to actually have an opinion on this, have a thought on this? Like, you know, I'm probably wrong. There's probably something that contrasts this. And that one cuts a little deeper at my self-esteem a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[64:19] Or maybe you're not wrong, and maybe you just have a different opinion. And also two people are just like constantly looking to find ways to be offended, like in any way, shape or form. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't bother me.

Speaker 2:
[64:34] Like, yeah, I aspire to be like that. I can tell you like give no shit tonight. That's amazing.

Speaker 1:
[64:40] Well, I mean, sometimes, but most of the time it whirls off my back, but sometimes it bothers me. Well, so who, who do you, what do you want to push? Who do you work with?

Speaker 2:
[64:52] Yeah, I work for Therapy for Women's Center. I am licensed or pre-licensed in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. That's like primarily where our offices are.

Speaker 1:
[65:02] Do you see people in person mostly or is it Zoom too?

Speaker 2:
[65:05] Both. I see people in person in Center City and then in person in Collingswood, New Jersey and virtual too. I'm trained in EMDR now and I just got, I just started doing couples therapy training, which I'm-

Speaker 1:
[65:18] Oh, exciting.

Speaker 2:
[65:19] Yeah. I'm just casting it.

Speaker 1:
[65:21] Is it a particular style or type or?

Speaker 2:
[65:24] I'm doing Gottman training, which is super interesting and I'm doing level 2 right now, so there's a lot more complex presentations, which is also very interesting, thinking about couples therapy from a trauma-informed lens as well. But I'm excited about that for sure. I just think I'm eager to get started with that, cast a net to see. Being so new, I'm always like, is there something else that I would love more than another thing? But I do really love individual work too.

Speaker 1:
[65:59] How many levels are there for the Gottmans? Is it like three, four?

Speaker 2:
[66:04] I think there's three and then I think there's a certification, practicum process too. I guess we'll see how much I love it if I want to invest down that line.

Speaker 1:
[66:16] Well, awesome, girl. I'll put all that in the show notes. Anything else that you want to push or say?

Speaker 2:
[66:21] My Instagram.

Speaker 1:
[66:22] Yeah, I'll put that in there.

Speaker 2:
[66:23] You know, I do have a lot of hearing you say thinking about the things that you've posted initially. I'm like, being so new, I know I'm going to look back and be like, why the fuck did you do that?

Speaker 1:
[66:32] No, no, don't. I mean, I'll send you some of the shit that I posted or stuff anywhere close to the same.

Speaker 2:
[66:38] But yeah, I mean, just that, Instagram, TikTok, stuff like that, and let's break the shit.

Speaker 1:
[66:45] Well, I'm so glad we connected, my fellow wanna break a boner.

Speaker 2:
[66:48] Oh yes, thank you so much for having me.