transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Amy, let me tell you about a magical place that is so exactly designed to be in closed space, year-round fun for the whole family, that I bet you already know what I'm gonna say before I even say the name. Let's say it together on three. One, two, three. Great Wolf Lodge.

Speaker 2:
[00:19] Great Wolf Lodge.

Speaker 1:
[00:20] You got it, Amy.

Speaker 2:
[00:21] My kids loved Great Wolf Lodge when we went. You probably already know that it has a huge indoor water park with a wave pool, lazy river, a bunch of massive waterslides. But then your pack can hit the other attractions because wait, there's more.

Speaker 1:
[00:35] Great Wolf Lodge has adventure packed attractions like Magi Quest, a live action game kids can play throughout the lodge. Plus the Northern Lights Arcade spent some quality time there. So your kid who loves the lazy river and your kid who loves fantasy games will both have a great time.

Speaker 2:
[00:51] Great Wolf Lodge also offers great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties, all under one roof, unpack the car once and you're settled in to have fun. And with 22 lodges across the country, you're always a short drive away from adventure.

Speaker 1:
[01:05] We've both had such great times at Great Wolf Lodge, so bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack.

Speaker 2:
[01:18] Oh, my amygdala is hijacked.

Speaker 1:
[01:20] What Fresh Hell Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. I don't see that as being part of my journey today.

Speaker 2:
[01:27] With Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson. Make sure you're motivated. Like, you know, no thanks. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas.

Speaker 1:
[01:35] So you don't have to. That person is a serial killer. We have to stop having them over for dinner. Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell, Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret.

Speaker 2:
[01:52] And this is Amy. Today, we're talking about emotional intelligence. What is it exactly? Can you learn it, or are you just born with it? Is it really a counterpart to IQ? What are we really talking about?

Speaker 1:
[02:03] Yeah, I'm very interested to hear what you have to say. I have a lot of thoughts, but I'm gonna respond rather than just jumping in. I have a friend who sometimes says, do you know anything about Peru? And I'm like, no. And he's like, hmm. Do you want to talk about it anyway? So I'm gonna try not to do the thing where I'm like, here's everything I think about it before you give me any facts.

Speaker 2:
[02:24] I enjoy the podcast, If Books Could Kill.

Speaker 1:
[02:26] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[02:27] And they have a funny thing where they talk about sort of airport books, which probably emotional intelligence would be one of them. Books like Blink, you know, that like take up a lot of the anxious generation, that take up a lot of time in our discourse. And it's like, is this for real or not? And one person does the prep and one person comes in really cold.

Speaker 1:
[02:44] I'm cold today, I'm freezing in the Arctic.

Speaker 2:
[02:47] I was pretty cold too because I just I wanted to learn what this was exactly. Emotional Intelligence, it was in 1990 that Peter Salovey, from whom I took Psychology 101 at Yale, me and like 400 other people, I think he's still the, no, no, he just retired as the president of Yale, but he was a psychology professor. And anyway, he introduced the concept of emotional intelligence with John Mayer in 1990.

Speaker 1:
[03:12] Who also wrote Your Body is a Wonderland, an incredible work. What a busy guy.

Speaker 2:
[03:16] Incredible.

Speaker 1:
[03:17] Dating Taylor Swift and figuring out emotional intelligence at the same time. It's funny because this is not the same John Mayer, obviously, it is spelled exactly the same. And I think one of the things that bad John Mayer, if I may, that we'll call this guy good John Mayer, is kind of known for is maybe having poor emotional intelligence. Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 2:
[03:37] I would not want somebody to write Your Body is a Wonderland about me.

Speaker 1:
[03:41] Faux emotional intelligence. I used to love that song. Oh, I thought that song was so romantic.

Speaker 2:
[03:47] It's not a red flag. It's like a yellow flag. What do the kids call that these days? It's not a green flag.

Speaker 1:
[03:52] That's the beige flag.

Speaker 2:
[03:53] Which means like, perceive with caution.

Speaker 1:
[03:55] Green flag, beige flag, red flag. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[03:57] Okay. All right. And I guess that's what emotional intelligence is to be able to recognize the flags around you. Anyway, so I thought Daniel Goleman invented this, but no, he wrote the book, Emotional Intelligence, Why It Can Matter More Than IQ in 1995. And it was in every airport and every bookstore. And I mean, I was a grown up in the 1990s, and this was certainly something you talked about every day. How to have it. Like now you have to have protein and creatine. You had to have emotional intelligence back in the 90s.

Speaker 1:
[04:26] Your IQ is high, but what's your EQ?

Speaker 2:
[04:29] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[04:29] It definitely felt like it existed for me somewhat in the corporate and.com spaces as kind of like a new way to judge if you're really smart. Right.

Speaker 2:
[04:43] You were very on the point as I looked into this. Like, oh, this is how to get to the executive suite technique. It's not about having a large heart.

Speaker 1:
[04:53] I feel like most, no offense, this is a huge statement for all things. But I feel like most of those airport books can kind of fall into that category. Like, are you being the best possible minion at your.com empire? Here, read this book. It's called Blink.

Speaker 2:
[05:13] This isn't all bad, but it is, I will say, upfront. If you came into this thinking that emotional intelligence and being emotionally intelligent is being really, really open-hearted and kind and nice, that's not what this is about. Exactly. I mean, if you get there, great, but that's not the thought process or the goal.

Speaker 1:
[05:29] I will also point out in that same vein that emotional intelligence, much like intellectual quotient, is that what it stands for, are just made up. I mean, there is no abject thing that is emotional intelligence. This is a theory that two people came up with, that we have a measurable emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2:
[05:52] They didn't even argue measurable because I was wondering going into this IQ and EQ, and it's funny, some people call it EI, but I always heard it EQ because it was presented as the yang to the IQ yin. You have to have IQ, but do you have EQ? Because what Daniel Goleman argues in his book, that emotional intelligence, this is why having a high IQ does not necessarily equate happiness, success, wealth of relationships or virtue because it's not the same thing. But it's also not the same thing in that IQ is, you can measure it, I mean, you're right, it's made up, but there's a test that gives you a number that you can go by that is somewhat inborn. I mean, you take your IQ test when you're 6 or you're 36, you're going to get the same score. It's about how do these puzzles fit together. It's much more logic than it is who won the Battle of Waterloo. It can be learned.

Speaker 1:
[06:42] Yeah. And it's also like a lot of these books, they're successful because they on some very basic level pass the smell test. You're like, oh yeah, this seems to make sense to me. I do know people who are really smart, who seem to have an extremely high IQ, who don't function very well as members of society. And then I know people who do really well that don't necessarily seem IQ smart. They have a different kind of smarts.

Speaker 2:
[07:09] They have a different way of being smart. That's what Daniel Goleman said.

Speaker 1:
[07:13] There you go. A different way of being smart.

Speaker 2:
[07:15] And the real question I had coming into this episode, what the people who study emotional intelligence and are proponents of it being an important thing, that no, it's not fixed at birth. Some of us are more lucky than others maybe, but that this is something that you can, this is a muscle that you can grow by being aware of it and focusing on it.

Speaker 1:
[07:33] That seems hopeful.

Speaker 2:
[07:35] Yeah. All right. So let's start talking about the five crucial components of emotional intelligence. Actually, now it's four. This is the first headline for you. It was five in the 90s.

Speaker 1:
[07:46] You promised five, Amy, and now I feel completely let down that you're only going to give me four. Also, like Pluto, I can't wait to hear who got kicked out.

Speaker 2:
[07:54] Yeah. So Daniel Goleman is still talking about this 30 years later. He's still like lectures and LinkedIn and stuff. And so he took out, it used to be five, now there's four.

Speaker 1:
[08:02] Like poor self-confidence or whatever is like, I'm not on the list anymore, man.

Speaker 2:
[08:06] The Pluto of emotional intelligence is motivation. In the 90s, in this very businessy book, one crucial component of emotional intelligence was motivation. So you could get ahead, so you could improve your lot in life. And now Daniel Goleman says that's actually not emotional intelligence.

Speaker 1:
[08:27] Not one of them after all.

Speaker 2:
[08:28] Yeah. I like that because you can kind of leave out the part that seems like the least useful to us as people and as parents. Make sure you're motivated. Like, you know, no thanks.

Speaker 1:
[08:38] Laughing No thanks. Somebody said to me the other day, learn this phrase. I was talking about how I'm overwhelmed. A lot of people asking me to do stuff. And I was at the gym and the lady teaching the class said, you need to learn this phrase. I don't see that as being part of my journey today. And I'm like, great phrase. And let me tell you, I don't see motivation as being part of our journey today. Amy, let's just leave it off.

Speaker 2:
[09:01] So let's talk about what is part of emotional intelligence and bring back, I guess, a little credence of like, yes, this is useful stuff to understand and have. And I think we've come at it in a lot of other ways in other episodes without using this framework. The first crucial component of emotional intelligence is self-awareness. You have to know how you're feeling and why you're feeling that way. It's kind of like another version of that piece of paper, like, oh, I'm feeling angry right now, and I'm feeling angry because I feel like my partner is not respecting my work or my time when they leave the dishes for me. That that's self-awareness of your feeling and your emotion about it. Emotions can swamp the brain. Daniel Goleman called this an amygdala hijack when you're just like in red brain, we like to call it. Sure. And it can flood you. And when you're emotionally intelligent, I feel like I'm just starting to be able to do this. Really just be like, oh, my amygdala is hijacked. I'm going to say to myself or their amygdala is hijacked. And nobody's a bad person, but we don't need to continue this conversation right now. Everybody's going to calm down and then we can talk about it.

Speaker 1:
[10:03] Yeah. I would say that one of the reasons you're able to do that now is because you're not actively in the war metaphorically. You know what I mean? Like when you've got three kids and everybody's running, it's just very hard to be emotionally intelligent in a foxhole. And I realized that I'm making metaphors that are not a thousand percent parallel. But when you're so deep in it with little kids, I feel like maybe you need it more than, but it's just very hard to pull off.

Speaker 2:
[10:33] I think I've just learned it by going through that, right? I think it's just like I'm old and my kids are old.

Speaker 1:
[10:37] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[10:37] But there was definitely a time a few years ago where if I had a kid screaming at me that I was a bad mother, I would definitely internalize some part of that. I have to convince them that they're wrong to think that, or I have to do a lot of work to be like, you're not, you're not a bad mother, right? Now, I can just be like, oh, that person's amygdala is hijacked. Guess we'll return to this application tomorrow.

Speaker 1:
[10:58] But do you think that if I dropped five three-year-olds in your apartment, you would be able to maintain that level of amygdala on hijacking because I know I would not?

Speaker 2:
[11:09] Yeah, I guess I'm thinking specifically of like, oh, I'm feeling anger, oh, I'm feeling overwhelmed, so I need to take a deep breath. Maybe I couldn't with five three-year-olds. I'm not telling you you're a bad person, but they all need something right now. It's not not being hijacked. It's being like, oh, I'm being hijacked right now.

Speaker 1:
[11:25] I know what's happening.

Speaker 2:
[11:26] Right. One of my kids just said to me this week, got in the car and they seemed really jittery. I said, are you okay? They said, yeah, I'm just feeling like a little panicked, almost anxious. I have to think about that. That is Emotional Intelligence instead of, why are you asking me that, right? Just saying, yes, I'm feeling this and I'm curious about why.

Speaker 1:
[11:45] I'd love it if that child of yours would call my house and explain how that's possible to some of the members of my household, including possibly myself.

Speaker 2:
[11:53] The sun is just coming over the horizon for me. It's a sunrise moment. I'm like, okay, I know what this is. I have started to see this happen for me. The second one is Self-Management, which means you're aware of your emotions. You're feeling overwhelmed right now. Then you can manage your reactions. Here's where it gets a little C-suite speaky, to get the desired results. You can manage your reactions to get the desired results.

Speaker 1:
[12:18] I am amazing at picking this up in other people and not as great at doing it for myself. But I often watch conversations where I'm like, you all are just banging your heads against the wall in here, and there's a door right over there if you would just stop banging against the wall. Very, very good at seeing this in other people, not always as gifted at seeing it in myself. But I do think this self-management towards goals, I feel like is in my wheelhouse.

Speaker 2:
[12:47] So you recognize the emotion and then you have mental clarity. I think you're completely correct that it is important to be able to see this in other people. This is what I'm talking about. Like, oh wow, you're really hijacked right now. And that's okay, right, but I can recognize that and then I can manage my reaction in order to get the desired result, which is like no more yelling.

Speaker 1:
[13:06] I think that's very true.

Speaker 2:
[13:08] And that's balance and that's adaptability. That's what they're bringing in under self-management that those are all part of that. And then positive outlook, which to me, I feel like is a little bit of a, that's shoehorned in there.

Speaker 1:
[13:18] We lost that phrase in the 70s basically, like oldie locks alert back in my day. But positive outlook is like the power of positive thinking, Norman Vincent Peale, like up with people, like let's all forget our problems and do like Jesus theme dancing and everything will be fine. And I feel like positive outlook has just gotten picked up by too many goony goo-goos for us to believe in it anymore.

Speaker 2:
[13:42] It's like turn this into happy. And I think what they might say if they're here to explain this, this is something I'm starting to understand too, is just having clarity is going to turn the ship towards feeling better and happier more of the time than when you're stuck in feeling angry and not knowing why you're feeling angry and then being like, I guess I don't want to feel angry, like doing that work to just get back to clarity and calm. I hope I don't sound like a Scientologist right now, but just getting clear.

Speaker 1:
[14:08] Yes, but you do, but you do. That's the problem with positive outlook. But I will say, my husband has an incredible ability, unlike almost anyone I've ever met, to say, if I'm going on about something or someone's doing me wrong, he's always able to be like, is it possible that they don't know that they're doing? Is it possible they're the empty boat that we talked about on the other show? They don't have an agenda. Is it possible that they're just clueless instead of malicious? And there's ways that serves him very well. And I would argue sometimes that I'm like, that person is a serial killer, we have to stop having them over for dinner. And he's like, I think they have good intentions. And I'm like, they ate one of our children. I don't think they do. So, balance.

Speaker 2:
[14:54] It's balance. All right, let's take a break. When we come back, we're gonna talk about the other crucial components of emotional intelligence. Hellions, it's time for some spring cleaning. And I don't just mean the coat closets. Doing your financial spring cleaning can actually be super easy when you let Monarch do your financial spring cleaning for you. One dashboard that gets your entire financial life organized. No more clutter, no more mess, no more logins scattered everywhere. Just accounts, investments, property, and more, all in one place. Get your first year of Monarch for half off, just $50 with promo code fresh. Monarch allows you to look not only at what you've already spent, but also to plan for the future. With Monarch, you can set savings goals, plan for big purchases, and notice spending trends before they become a problem. I can generate cash flow reports that show me what we spent this quarter, this month, what we're probably going to spend next month, and feel prepared, organized, and knowing how to plan for the future. No more surprises and a lot more clarity. Try Monarch. Use code fresh at monarch.com to get your first year half off at just $50. That's 50 percent off your first year at monarch.com with code fresh.

Speaker 3:
[16:07] You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price, and want to tell everyone about it? Yeah, so do we. Here at Designer Shoe Warehouse, we'll give you something to brag about, like the latest styles from brands you love, or the trends everyone's obsessing over, or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Find shoes that get you, and prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW, let us surprise you.

Speaker 1:
[16:37] Amy, when I'm having a good hair day, it usually makes my whole day better. And that's why on every day, I'm taking NutriFall.

Speaker 2:
[16:45] NutriFall is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. NutriFall's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport, and clinically tested.

Speaker 1:
[17:00] NutriFall offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages and lifestyle factors. So you get support that's actually right for you. Adding NutriFall to your daily routine is easy. Order online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track.

Speaker 2:
[17:18] Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with NutriFall.

Speaker 1:
[17:26] For a limited time, NutriFall is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrifall.com and enter promo code laughing.

Speaker 2:
[17:37] That's nutrifall.com, spelled nutrafol.com, promo code laughing. Okay, so the third component of emotional intelligence that you need to have in order to be a person living the life you wanna live, gotta catch them all as they say a Pokemon. Look out for social awareness by which they mean understanding of others. I think this is theory of mind. It is in understanding what others are thinking and feeling.

Speaker 1:
[18:09] It's so funny to me that this is like the term C-suite, which I only learned recently, which is why I now use it every 10 seconds, is the corporate suite. But C-suite means like the tech leaders and the business leaders. And this is something that I think is funny to have on the list for those people because in almost every office I've ever worked at, the people in charge have very little social awareness. Like they're just not strong at this, you know.

Speaker 2:
[18:37] Daniel Goleman would argue that in order to be an effective leader, that you need to have this and that effective leaders do have this. That Warren Buffett has this. Elon Musk probably does not have this.

Speaker 1:
[18:49] Yeah, I was going to say like Trump doesn't have it. And he is arguably an effective leader. Whatever you think of him, he has been elected president of the United States twice. I think that sometimes the problem with these kind of books and the kind of like C-suite self-help stuff is like, you think you want this, but I don't know that you really want this. I think it's a very useful skill.

Speaker 2:
[19:12] I think it's something that women excel at, but you can't conflate success with happiness, right? They think you can lean on that. And so our president does not seem like a particularly happy person. I don't think I'd want to be in a relationship with that person. That's something different. I think, yeah, I think it does get a little wacky when you're like, and this makes you a great leader. I'm not sure they do go together.

Speaker 1:
[19:34] Well, that's it. It's like you're conflating things that don't really go together. And many have argued, I mean, Jimmy Carter, a great example, like maybe our best people don't make our best presidents. Lots of people would argue that, you know?

Speaker 2:
[19:46] And empathy, which is not the same as sympathy. This is sort of like what Brit Barron was talking about in her book, Do You Still Talk to Grandma? Like having empathy for other people does not mean agreeing with other points of view, it means understanding that they have a deeply held point of view. Listening to that and I guess engaging with that other persons need to be understood. You don't have to agree with them. You have to see that this employee who you have to fire to bring it back to the business thing is going to be very upset and think that they are being terribly wronged by this, even though they were entirely mediocre at your company. And so you, as an effective leader, are empathetic to their disappointment and their upset and they're feeling attacked. And you can be empathetic for that and hold space for that even if you don't agree with it.

Speaker 1:
[20:37] Well, we have lost this so much. I feel like this is a problem of our age, this ability to be empathetic to people. We were just talking about Trust the Profit, which if you haven't watched, turn down the volume for one minute because we're good to just talk about it for a second. And also a little disturbing content warning. The show is about Warren Jeff's profit of the FLDS leaves. And like another guy immediately is like, now I'm getting messages that I should be the prophet.

Speaker 2:
[21:10] And everybody just switches right over to, well, not everybody.

Speaker 1:
[21:13] But a lot of people go. And you watch basically he's taking on a lot of wives, many of whom are very underage. When they try to arrest him, who comes to his defense? The wives, because they're like, this person is God. That's what they believe. And it's interesting because I think the woman who's kind of the driver of the documentary has incredible emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2:
[21:36] You're so right. She'll be talking to him on the phone. I'm like, he's the prophet and I need him. And she can live with them. And they're like, I understand how I, you're so upset. And I just want you to know I'm on your side. Meanwhile, she's like talking to the FBI and trying to get them help. But you're right, she listens to them and holds their emotional experiences with such clarity. That's how she gains their trust and helps them.

Speaker 1:
[21:58] Yeah, I was very struck by this idea of, we've lost the ability to be like, you believe something different than I do. Therefore, I have to cut off all contact with you to punish you. And I understand why that has happened. But empathy, the ability to genuinely connect with people first, because that's how she changes everybody eventually. She doesn't skip the part where you have to connect before you can change someone's mind.

Speaker 2:
[22:27] Ross Greene, who wrote the Explosive Child fantastic book, put out this collaborative and proactive solutions model of intervention with kids who are having difficulties and being difficult. Giving plenty of difficulties at the same time. Anyway, that you have to connect before you correct, connect before you redirect. It's kind of obvious to us now, just like this stuff is obvious to us now because we live in a world where this book came out 30 years ago and everybody understands this. But it was at the time pretty revolutionary, the idea that you don't have to, that a kid who was losing their stuff all the time at home does not need increasingly difficult discipline. They instead need radical connection. And it's hard, but it's an incredible skill.

Speaker 1:
[23:12] And similarly, I mean, we know this, right? We talk about getting on the same side of the net or like approaching the problem together. We're currently dealing with something in my family that involves a lot of voices, and we're trying to figure it out together and it's complicated. And frankly, there's not really a great solution. When it starts getting fraught, it's like, hey, let's come back to the idea that we're all trying to solve this problem because we all care and we're all invested in it. And it's really sad to think of the outcome not being good. And it's corny and it can get a little up with people. But if you skip that step, it's so much more chaos. And I do find with kids, this can be really, really important. I have teens who tend to be a little bit right now like, and this person's an idiot and I don't know. And I'm like, it drives drive me crazy. I'm like, that person is an adult. Show them some respect. You don't know better than everybody. That's what's in my mind. But I do have to put your piece of paper in and be like, that does sound really frustrating. And I remember how unjust that felt when I was in school. When someone was in charge, you didn't necessarily think had all the answers. But man, if you skip that step, you're in trouble.

Speaker 2:
[24:24] Right. And that's why it matters because emotions are contagious and it does work both ways. So definitely if you stay calm in conflict, it helps the other person calm down, even if they're not aware of it, whether it's a kid or your parenting partner or somebody at work. If you can keep things a little calmer, it will bring the temperature down. And on the other hand, if you fly off the handle, then it's much more likely your kid is going to fly off the handle or your coworker or whatever it is. Even if we don't mean for it to. And does it always have to be our responsibility? No. But when it's our kids, it is. And then it kind of works and then you kind of get better at doing it.

Speaker 1:
[25:00] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[25:00] So this is the last part of it. Social skills is the last skill of emotional intelligence. This is interesting because to me, somebody emotionally intelligent, I guess I thought it was somebody who was super loving and nice, like big heart. And also somebody that was just very magnetic that you wanted to be around all the time, like life of the party, funny stories. And I mean, that can be part of it, but it's not necessarily. It's that you are good at conflict management. You are good at seeing the people around you and the dynamics that are happening in a group. You're good at creating teamwork and you're good at being a leader because you know all these things. Again, it kind of gets really into business much more than I thought it would, but it helps you be effective in groups.

Speaker 1:
[25:41] I think because it was written for business, but I think in general, I'm always a little bit wary of these kind of books, which is why If Books Could Kill is great. If it doesn't apply to people across all genders and races and classes, someone was like, hmm, that's interesting because I don't believe that what people in prison who never made it to the C-suite are missing is grit or emotional intelligence, or any of the other books that we've read. But at the same time, these are obviously valuable skills. Again, it's the box metaphor that there's a box full of emotional intelligence, and if you have it, you're going to do great and you're a great person. There's plenty of emotionally intelligent people who are in dire circumstances for millions of different reasons that have nothing to do with their emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2:
[26:34] Right. It does make you more able to deal with the stuff that life throws your way.

Speaker 1:
[26:40] I think to a degree it does, but I don't think that people who are born into extremely dire circumstances and live in those dire circumstances, all that's missing is emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2:
[26:55] No, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[26:56] I don't believe that emotional intelligence is the thing that overcomes all things in life. I also, speaking as the mom of a kid on the spectrum, for people who are listening, one of the big objections I have to emotional intelligence is that it is four things that people with neurodivergence particularly struggle with. I've always been a little bit gimlet-eyed towards emotional intelligence because it's very neurotypical-coded, for lack of a better word. I think there are people who get very far in life because they have high emotional intelligence, but that they're not good leaders and they're not great people, you know? And so I think there's a point where emotional manipulation can tip into like manipulative skills.

Speaker 2:
[27:41] Well, let's talk about that. We're going to get to kids, emotional intelligence, can it be taught, how it should be taught. I want to make sure to talk about all that. But there is Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychologist, had some pushback for emotional intelligence. I wanted to make sure to be like, but what is this really? So this is work that can be done. It is something you can get better at. Some people are born feeling pretty happy on a usual day and being in control of their emotions, and some people have to learn it. It can be learned. It doesn't come easily to some people. But he argues that when people hone their emotional skills, they can get better at manipulating others. Managing your reactions can also sometimes mean hiding your true feelings in order to manipulate somebody, or to say, I'm so happy for you when you're not. You can get very like Iago and Othello is emotionally intelligent.

Speaker 1:
[28:27] Yeah. I mean, I think you could argue that like Warren Jeffs is the most emotionally intelligent person on that compound.

Speaker 2:
[28:33] Right.

Speaker 1:
[28:33] He understands all these things. He has huge self-esteem. He knows how to guide people's reactions. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[28:40] Right. It's a way of emotional intelligence means you have more highly effective in your daily life. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're morally superior.

Speaker 1:
[28:51] Okay. That's fair. If you take emotional intelligence as morally neutral, then I believe in it much more.

Speaker 2:
[28:58] Right. There were two studies. I thought this was interesting because we like studies around here. In one study, University of Cambridge, when a leader gave a speech that was inspiring and filled with emotion, the audience was less likely to scrutinize the message, and much more likely to say that they found it profoundly moving and wonderful, and it was a powerful speech. But the more emotion you put into it, the less they listen to what you're actually saying.

Speaker 1:
[29:24] This is Warren Jeffs. This is the manipulative element, right?

Speaker 2:
[29:27] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:27] Then you get God in there and it's like, okay, sure, we're all following a cult leader because he's got tremendous emotional intelligence, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

Speaker 2:
[29:37] It's the awestruck effect. Then you want to be emotionally intelligent, sitting in the audience so you can be like, this might be the awestruck effect happening right now. Yes. This was another one, a study at the University of Toronto, employees at the university filled out a survey about how Machiavellian they are. Machiavelli was, I forget who he was, he just was a courtier who was incredibly manipulative and played everybody against the other. They took a test at how effective they were at managing their own emotions and then did another test about how likely they are to be manipulative at work and go after what they want and guess what? People who were very effective at managing how they presented themselves emotionally and how they managed themselves were able to also be more manipulative if that's what they wanted to do.

Speaker 1:
[30:19] I have a thought about this. Let's take a break and I have a little thought.

Speaker 2:
[30:23] My favorite skincare products actually feel more like self-care, like they're so nice to put on and they smell so good that I'm actually happy when I get to that part of my day and I swear, that is how I feel about Osea's anti-aging body balm.

Speaker 1:
[30:37] Amy, you are usually the lotions and potions queen on this podcast, but I have to say, hard agree.

Speaker 2:
[30:43] Osea's anti-aging body balm is a liquid silk body balm that combines the lasting hydration of a lotion with the firming power of a serum, leaving skin smoother and firmer.

Speaker 1:
[30:53] This body balm is clinically tested and designed to deliver visible results you can see and feel.

Speaker 2:
[31:00] So we've gotten to use this product for a couple of months now and I swear, I have really noticed firmer and smoother skin, like on the back of my hands. It's like getting a mini spa treatment from head to toe.

Speaker 1:
[31:10] Get a spring-worthy glow with clean, clinically tested skincare from Osea. Right now, we have a special discount just for our listeners.

Speaker 2:
[31:19] Get 10 percent off your first order site-wide with code fresh at oseamalibu.com.

Speaker 1:
[31:25] That's 10 percent off your first order with code fresh at oseamalibu.com.

Speaker 4:
[31:33] Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong.

Speaker 3:
[31:40] Bro, Skycoin, way better than points.

Speaker 4:
[31:43] Never fly during a Scorpio full moon.

Speaker 2:
[31:46] Just tell the manager you'll sue.

Speaker 4:
[31:48] Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with Kayak and get your trip right. Kayak got that right.

Speaker 1:
[32:06] And now, things you will hear at the school play.

Speaker 2:
[32:10] From the What Fresh Hell podcast.

Speaker 1:
[32:12] Why do I not remember My Fair Lady being this long? Was it always this long?

Speaker 2:
[32:18] Oh, of course, there's Gretchen in the lead. Again, do they even audition other kids?

Speaker 1:
[32:22] Wow, that is one apathetic version of the hand jive.

Speaker 2:
[32:26] Great, I get the seat behind the dad with the news crew video set up.

Speaker 1:
[32:30] Uh-oh, uh-oh, we've got someone crying in the chorus. Oh, gosh, actually, it looks like two chorus members are actively weeping.

Speaker 2:
[32:38] Oh, can I get an extra program? It will be the perfect addition to my box of keepsakes my kid will have to throw away when they're 50.

Speaker 1:
[32:45] Is that kid supposed to be a sunflower or a lion? I can't tell.

Speaker 2:
[32:49] Oh, look honey, there she is.

Speaker 1:
[32:51] Come on, honey, you can do it.

Speaker 2:
[32:52] Get those hands up, and smile, come on. Little louder, little louder.

Speaker 1:
[32:57] That's it, you got it. Oh, sweet lord, not an encore. I have to be up in like seven hours.

Speaker 2:
[33:03] Yes, that was my kid playing beggar number four. Isn't she amazing? I'm so proud of her. The stage really has always been her calling.

Speaker 1:
[33:10] This has been Things You Will Hear at the School Play from the What Fresh Hell podcast. One of the things I teach is like public presentation and public speaking. Some of it is about like how to present your best self. And I often say in the class, like you can use these tools. These are just tools. You can use them for good or for evil, right? And that's right. Being a very effective communicator and being very tuned in to other people's emotion and having what we have currently defined as high emotional quotient or intelligence, you can use it for good or evil. You know, I mean, it's a tool that you have. And that's right, like a kid on the spectrum is not likely to score as high on emotional intelligence, but they are much more likely to not be deceptive.

Speaker 2:
[34:03] The awestruck effect maybe wouldn't hit as hard.

Speaker 1:
[34:05] Well, and also they're personally not generally very manipulative. They don't lie, people on the spectrum, as effectively as other people. I'm speaking in gigantic generalities here, I realize. I've had an awestruck moment with you, Amy. You are now my charismatic cult leader and I will follow you to the desert. But I think the idea of moral neutrality in emotional intelligence, emotional intelligence is presented as something you should have because it's good. I think that it makes a lot more sense if it's totally neutral. Some people have this, some people don't.

Speaker 2:
[34:39] It makes your life more effective, however you want to define that for yourself. If a happy life for you is a lot of friends, you're going to have a lot of friends if you're emotionally intelligent. If you want to trick people into giving you all their money, you're going to get there if you're emotionally intelligent. It isn't about being a good-hearted person, it's about being an effective person in your daily life. To go back with what you were saying about the autism spectrum, yes, kids with autism or even ADHD, they can really miss social cues and so this costs them. They struggle with this part of emotional intelligence. Kids with auditory processing disorder can misinterpret cues, like they think you're mad at them when they're not, that kind of thing and there's also something called rejection sensitivity dysphoria that kids with ADHD can have, that they perceive neutral interactions as negative and of course, anxiety, things like that.

Speaker 1:
[35:27] And also, even in terms of communication, I have had this, that I will respond, why are you so hostile? Why are you yelling with my neurotypical and non-neurotypical kids? But the reaction is often, I'm not yelling, I'm not upset. I'm just, you have to hear me, so I'm speaking loud and they're kind of outside the general pot of understanding of cues. And so the cues just get confusing.

Speaker 2:
[35:54] Right. And then this, I thought this was interesting. Some researchers say that kids with dyslexia can have higher emotional intelligence. Some researchers think this may be due to their brain's natural ability to think in the big picture. thiswasunderstood.org. This isn't like madeupwebsite.com. So I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 1:
[36:12] Yeah. I mean, I think it's so fascinating how little we know about the brain and how it works. And you were using it the other day. And for some reason, that's like been the metaphor of my month, the elephant, like there's a famous quote about an elephant and someone's looking at the toes and they're like, they're blindfolded and they're like, one has the tail and one has the ear.

Speaker 2:
[36:30] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:31] That feeling of, if you're studying emotional intelligence, then emotional intelligence is what's important about the brain. But what's important about the brain is so dang mysterious to all of us. And as a parent of a kid on the spectrum, I have been very resistant to emotional intelligence cause I'm like, we don't have that and we're doing just fine. Thank you very much. But it's one strength and nobody has all the strengths.

Speaker 2:
[36:57] Peg Rosen, understood.org, she described it for kids this way. I thought this was interesting. For kids, emotional intelligence can be like a GPS that can help them navigate their way around obstacles, size up a situation, put it in perspective, come up with ways to work through it. And she gives the example of like Samuel, the kid who is struggling with his math homework. Does he break his pencil? Does he have a tantrum? Does he say, I can't do it? And that's where he stops. You might know that kid. And then there might be another kid who's like, hmm, I think I'm going to call Daniel because Daniel is really good at math. Maybe he'll help me and then we can play Fortnite. There's kids who see a problem and stop there. And there are kids who say like, maybe I can go this way. And of course you want your kid to be able to do that for themselves because you'll just have an easier life if you can do that. But it isn't like you're better than the kid who gets a little stuck.

Speaker 1:
[37:48] I'm going to come home hot with another whole take on emotional intelligence. It feels very male coded to me. Women are doing this all the time. Women walk out onto a street at night and they're like, who's a good guy? Who's a bad guy? They have like the Terminator glasses on all the time.

Speaker 2:
[38:07] There was just a study about this. Fascinating. It actually did like night vision and it showed, they tracked where women's eyes went and it was like walking down a path at night.

Speaker 1:
[38:17] And the man was like straight line, like, I'm just looking at the sidewalk. I got somewhere to go. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:23] And the women's was like, be, be, be, be all on the perimeter, like the trees, the this, the road, the this, like checking the entire perimeter the whole time. It was fascinating to see it. That's what you're talking about.

Speaker 1:
[38:34] For sure. And also just that I can go into, I come to your birthday party and my husband and I are on the way home and I'm like, could you see that Amy was having conflict with that lady in the kitchen and I think that those two might be getting divorced because they did not stuck to you. And we watched Real Housewives and we like, we're very into like emotional intelligence. And I feel like the kind of male airport book version of this is not as interested in that version of emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2:
[39:05] Yeah, they have to present it as like, here's an idea. What if you wonder what other people are feeling?

Speaker 1:
[39:10] Right. I'm like, dudes, we've been doing this. And we're not taking over the C suites. You know what I'm saying? Like it has a little bit, I'm not trying at the end of our episode to be like, Amy, I am now about to poop all over everything you've said all episode. But it does strike me that this does feel a little bit mail coded to me. Like, what if we listened to people? It's like, okay, we're good.

Speaker 2:
[39:36] How can I use my emotions more effectively rather than how can I only have good emotions or how can I make sure to always only think of other people? It's not either of those things.

Speaker 1:
[39:46] Yeah. It is always useful to say, this is how I teach when I teach like personal presentation stuff. What tools do I currently have? What tools am I missing? How am I using the tools that I have? Am I using them effectively? What about the tools that I'm missing? Can I acquire them or are they unacquireable, like emotional intelligence might be for somebody on the spectrum to some degree? What tools do I want to develop? I think that these are interesting questions, but I think sometimes to sell books, people are like, the only thing that really matters is your EQ. You've heard about IQ, and that none of them are really like that. The only thing that matters for kids is grit. We went through that phase where grit was the only thing that mattered, or letting kids fail was the only thing that mattered, and none of these are the only thing that matters. They are, does your kid already have this tool? Some people just have this tool, they're born with it in their toolkit. Some kids really need to work on this tool, and some moms and some dads really need to work on this, but is this something that you need to work on? Does that make sense?

Speaker 2:
[40:56] It does, but I think you can say, being aware of your emotions and other people's emotions, and being able to react the way you want to react or be aware that you're not reacting the way you want to react, that that's useful in life. Is it holy? No, but is it useful? Yes.

Speaker 1:
[41:13] No, and I agree, and with kids on the spectrum, you often have something like an emotion card, which is like a bunch of different faces. How does this person feel? Because they have to work on those skills more than other people.

Speaker 2:
[41:25] So it's useful to have. Some people don't have it. It can be taught. I would further argue that it is useful for it to be taught, that I think the world would be a better place if people did learn how to have empathy for others, how to manage their own emotions. And if we could all be more effective with one another, we'd all be more effective. So I think it's useful. And it's just ironic to me, because I was thinking like, can this be taught? Could they teach us in schools? And I totally forgot, oh, social emotional learning.

Speaker 1:
[41:57] I was just about to say.

Speaker 2:
[41:58] It was the total woke bugaboo. Like, can you believe they're teaching our kids to be emotionally intelligent in school? And here all along, what we're actually learning is, it's actually not about being nice. It's about being aware.

Speaker 1:
[42:12] And it's like an extinct animal. Like, wouldn't it be nice if we had a parrot with a red beak? It's like, we had one, we killed it.

Speaker 2:
[42:18] Right. And then you're saying too, that it's the women who are doing this already and the men who are like, you need a little emotional intelligence, would not be a bad thing for you.

Speaker 1:
[42:27] So let's go through, you have a list of how to teach kids emotional intelligence. And I think before we close, because I feel like we could debate this all day, but we kind of feel like, okay, it's not natural to everyone, it's not the top of the mountain, but it's useful. So let's go through these tools of teaching.

Speaker 2:
[42:45] This is from understood.org. The first thing to do is help your kid be aware of their emotions, both positive and negative. Name them. You're feeling proud of yourself. Don't tell them you're feeling proud of yourself.

Speaker 1:
[42:55] Naimim.

Speaker 2:
[42:56] Yeah, Naimim. To do a little Sutton Strack there from Real Housewives.

Speaker 1:
[42:59] To make a Housewives reference.

Speaker 2:
[43:01] Yes. Let them name them. Oh, wow. You got all your homework done and now you have time to play with your brother. How does it make you feel? Let them say it.

Speaker 1:
[43:09] I 100 percent agree that this is a good idea.

Speaker 2:
[43:12] This was a good idea. I thought, turn off the sound on the TV, play a game with your kids. Let's all guess how the characters are feeling based on their gestures and their facial expression.

Speaker 1:
[43:22] Yeah. If you have kids on the spectrum, you've probably had a card box of what comes next. Here is a person, they dropped their ice cream cone, what comes next? These things are great for kids on the spectrum, but some kids who are neurotypical may need more help with this.

Speaker 2:
[43:39] Right.

Speaker 1:
[43:40] There's lots of social emotional learning techniques that you can dial in on.

Speaker 2:
[43:44] The third one was to reflect on how your child has reacted in the past. This I think would work better for younger kids, but it is very much worth doing when they tore up their drawing that they worked on for 20 minutes because the sky wasn't right and now they're crying, that they tore up their drawing. After they've calmed down, sort of talk to them like, I wonder, I know you feel so sad about that, what else might you have done? And help them brainstorm about what else they might have done to react differently.

Speaker 1:
[44:08] And if you've got a kid who struggles with transitions, you learn pretty quickly. I'm gonna call the school and tell their teacher to tell them that after school, they have a dentist appointment because I forgot to tell them this morning. Because you know if you pick them up and you're like, we're not going home, we're going to the dentist. Your life is not worth living.

Speaker 2:
[44:24] Kaboom. Kaboom. Kaboom. Tough situations are learning opportunities. This is mostly for I think us as parents to remember. It's not about clearing the path. It's about letting them use the tough situations to learn and what can they do the next time they face that challenge so that the teacher won't put them in the hallway the next time, right?

Speaker 1:
[44:40] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[44:41] And then find ways to help others. This is just including your kid in any caregiving you're doing. We all take care of others. They take care of the pet. Any moment for your kid to realize they're not the center of the universe and that other people have needs and that they can assist is worthwhile. And then explore the SEL options that hopefully are still existing at your school and elsewhere. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[45:00] I mean, I think that social emotional learning has become a phrase that people think means teach kids about sex when they're two, whatever, like it's gotten conflated with stuff. Just look up social emotional learning. There's nothing scary about it. You might have objections to it being taught in schools that might or might not be valid, but social emotional learning is good for kids. And so go to the library, look up a book about social emotional learning, especially if this is an area where your kid struggles.

Speaker 2:
[45:29] Well, I think I learned a ton today about emotional intelligence.

Speaker 1:
[45:34] Loved this episode, Amy. I came in like, oh, here she goes with her emotional intelligence. But no, I came out. I mean, this is the thing, I agree with these tenets. I don't always agree about how it's applied. And I think we underappreciate that women are more emotionally intelligent than men, and we devalue it in women, and we somehow think it's the magic cure for men, which is so many things. But with that said, I'm forward, Amy. I'm for emotional intelligence, as it turns out.

Speaker 2:
[46:01] Let's all be more emotionally intelligent.

Speaker 1:
[46:04] Have you visited our bookshop? We have a bookshop.org where we feature all of the books. It is from independent booksellers, and you can find lots of books there about social emotional learning. You can find guests we've had that have talked about social emotional learning. Click the link in our show notes or go to our website, whatfreshhellpodcast.com and find the link to our bookshop and go buy yourself a new book and sit outside and read. It's getting warm.

Speaker 2:
[46:29] Or I will say, if you're just like next time you're on bookshop, you're like, wait, what is it again? Just search What Fresh Hell and you'll find our bookstore. Just go to bookshop.org and do it that way.

Speaker 1:
[46:36] I literally have to do that myself every time I go there. I'm like, wait, what is our link again?

Speaker 2:
[46:39] It's there.

Speaker 1:
[46:40] With that, emotionally intelligent friends, thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next time.

Speaker 2:
[46:45] Thanks everybody.