transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Weeks ago, I was at the gym, went into the steam room, which I love, and normally, and then ultimately I realized he was like, yeah, well, I actually sell them. So if you're ever looking for a hookup. Today, we are talking about peptides, these things that people are injecting into themselves for optimizing their body, whether that be their health, their exercise regimen, or to try and live forever. We're gonna be breaking down whether or not these are legit, if they're safe, if they're healthy, and if they can help you, or if you should avoid them altogether. It's a really fascinating new trend.

Speaker 2:
[00:39] You were offered peptides, weren't you?

Speaker 1:
[00:40] Okay, I was gonna say, not that this necessarily prompted the pod, but not that long ago, weeks ago, I was at the gym, went into the steam room, which I love, and normally, I hate when people talk in there, but I am a chatty person, so if someone starts talking to me, I'll be friendly. And this guy was chatting me up, being nice, and then he started just asking, oh, have you ever taken peptides before? And I was just like, didn't really know how to respond. I was like, do you think I look like I do that? And then ultimately, I realized he was like, yeah, well, I actually sell them, so if you're ever looking for a hookup. And I was just being friendly. And honestly, I had-

Speaker 2:
[01:16] Did he say which type of peptide was a BPC-150?

Speaker 1:
[01:19] Well, no. I mean, I'm sure we're gonna talk about that one specifically.

Speaker 2:
[01:24] Sorry, BPC-157. Oh, my God. Wow. I'm a noob.

Speaker 1:
[01:28] There's lots of different angles that people are coming from this ad, and it's very much in the health influencer space. So to have had it offered to me directly, and now I've got my drug dealer if I need it, it prompted me to want to research a lot more about this and uncover what's going on. Because I've heard a lot of gym row culture talk about peptides.

Speaker 2:
[01:48] I want you to point out to me this drug pusher next time we're at the gym.

Speaker 1:
[01:51] I feel bad. And he was a perfectly nice person. It didn't feel sketchy, but it was just like I've never had something like that happen to me before.

Speaker 2:
[02:00] I don't know what it says about me that I've never been offered peptides at the gym. Thanks a lot, y'all.

Speaker 1:
[02:04] Probably that you look like you already take them.

Speaker 2:
[02:06] No, there's no way.

Speaker 1:
[02:08] The thing that immediately turns me off is I'm way too scared to inject something in myself, let alone something that I'm like buying from a gray market. So, okay, so let's get into it. If you've never heard of peptides before, let's give like the spectrum of sort of the basics of what they are, what they compare to. You can put your mind in the zone of steroids. They are not steroids, but like they're basically amino acid chains, right? We know what amino acids are like basic building blocks of life. And when you get a really long amino acid chain, that is a protein which helps to like build your body. Whereas peptides are usually like under 50 amino acids between two and 50. And they have more like specific roles, as in like they kind of encode and trigger your body to do other things as opposed to being structurally like the same as proteins.

Speaker 2:
[02:53] And they don't necessarily even fold in on themselves. Like proteins are so long as the peptide chains that they like fold and create a protein. They're so small that these ones don't necessarily fold. And they, yeah, by definition have to be under 50 amino acids in length, but the most important thing biochemically to understand about the word peptide is that it's an insane name because that doesn't mean anything. So one example that I read, which I thought was interesting was, okay, let's consider there's 20 amino acids, like standard amino acids. You can all learn about them. You can Google them. You have to memorize them when you're in like second year university.

Speaker 1:
[03:30] And I've always debated making a song about that.

Speaker 2:
[03:32] You should, because I like, honestly, amino acids are so fascinating. They're brilliant. They're beautiful. Like it's a great part of learning biochemistry is understanding how these work. But let's just take the 20 standard amino acids and then take one, like 10 amino acid chain. So a peptide that's only 10 amino acids in length. The amount of quote unquote peptide combinations you could get from that is 20 to the power of 10, which is over 10 trillion possibilities of a peptide. So when people are saying peptide, it's like meaning so many things.

Speaker 1:
[04:06] Literally there could be so many variations.

Speaker 2:
[04:08] Cause there's so many different amino acids. So again, between two to 50 amino acids in length, the amount of combinations that that could mean, if someone's offering you peptides at the gym, it's like, which one, my friends?

Speaker 1:
[04:19] Cause it's just become colloquially related to this movement of using these things that are not steroids. So to compare them to steroids, steroids are much more intense, and they sort of wash over your whole body and affect all your cells. But the idea of peptides is that they're a little more specific, and your body does create some of them naturally. So things like insulin, oxytocin, vasopressin, these are peptides that are involved in regulating blood sugar levels, social behaviors, and water retention, and your body creates them naturally.

Speaker 2:
[04:53] So today we're talking about peptides, which are bought online.

Speaker 1:
[04:56] Yeah, synthesized, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[04:57] So these are peptides that are bought online under this sort of label and branding that they will increase strength, endurance, energy, repair. There's a lot of people who are like, I heard Mitch Schroeder got a peptide, and then it healed. And the US imports of peptides from China increased twofold last year. So people are ordering these peptides online. The thing about peptides is you have to inject them. When you consume protein, like you eat a burger, for example, your stomach will break down the peptide bonds, make the protein you consume small enough that it gets absorbed into your bloodstream. And then the ribosomes in your cell rebuild the protein molecules that help you live. So you actually can't eat or take a pill of peptides because your body will break them down. So you have to inject peptides into you, which I think is a big, for me, a barrier to entry. That's insane.

Speaker 1:
[05:49] Well, yeah, personally. I mean, I always want to have a measured view of, I went into this being open minded. Obviously, I'm not necessarily interested on the surface, so maybe I'll mention that. But I'm like, okay, maybe there's a space for this. There's obviously legitimate research going on here. We all are aware of some really famous peptides, otherwise known as GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic.

Speaker 2:
[06:13] And people think that because of the rise of Ozempic has now created sort of the cultural ability for people to inject themselves with peptides. Without the Ozempic craze, like people are at home injecting Ozempic all the time, we're talking about it all the time, has maybe paved the way for people to buy online from China peptides that they inject into the home.

Speaker 1:
[06:31] And to learn about them in the first place. And obviously seeing the success of the drugs like cimeglotude and trisapatite is how you call it. Again, like GLP stands for glucagon like peptide. So that's obviously, yeah, paved the way for the sort of like average person to hear about that word.

Speaker 2:
[06:49] And also inject themselves. Like that's what I think. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. I think the culture of injecting yourself has sort of been paved by become more normalized as like you just do it on your own.

Speaker 1:
[07:01] It's scary to me. Well, there was one other thing I was gonna say, but I'm just looking at my notes. You keep talking.

Speaker 2:
[07:08] Oh, okay. Well, I'm just gonna kind of go off on how messed up it is.

Speaker 1:
[07:11] I'm so annoyed I had something in my brain.

Speaker 2:
[07:13] Oh, no.

Speaker 1:
[07:14] Oh, I guess it was just that.

Speaker 2:
[07:16] You're like, oh, I did peptides.

Speaker 1:
[07:17] Yeah, oh, I just tried them and I'm feeling great. No, no, no. It was just that like they are now being synthesized. Like before this, we didn't necessarily have the technology to like make them and then inject them in the same way. And so the idea and like how it gets sold by even like influencers who just take like the the essence of some of the science research and then re-appropriate it for themselves is like scientists are like writing specific codes, like because peptides, you could you can construe that they're like instruction manuals. You know what I mean? Like they're instructing your body in certain regions to do certain things. And so the idea is like now we can construct these little engineers and it's not like a steroid that's going to wash over your whole body like a sledgehammer. But instead, it can be like less intense than a steroid. But we're going to get into why that may or may not be true and why they should or should not still have concern about it.

Speaker 2:
[08:09] Yeah. It's kind of crazy.

Speaker 1:
[08:13] I think it's also important to mention just like the cultural moment of it. I mean, we've mentioned Ozempic and Wigovia and those things. Obviously it's also been ingrained into like the maha movement like RF, what's his name? RFK Jr. RFK Jr. Has like pushed to deregulate them, which we'll touch on a little later as well, because it's like slightly ironic, given that like they basically aren't regulated in the first place, and that's why maybe we should have some concern around them. Again, there's like a whole social media aspect of this, of influencers even like pushing and selling and getting kickbacks on this gray market material. And the other thing is that there's like looks maxing community.

Speaker 2:
[08:51] Looks maxing.

Speaker 1:
[08:52] Looks maxing, which we've done our recent podcast on. And it's popular in the manosphere, of course, and people like Joe Rogan have like pushed this saying that they-

Speaker 2:
[09:02] And Andrew Huberman.

Speaker 1:
[09:03] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[09:04] We gotta bring up our little science quote unquote daddy.

Speaker 1:
[09:07] I have not listened to that episode. I saw it in my sort of like deep dive of this, but I'm curious to see how he approaches it. I don't know if you had a chance to-

Speaker 2:
[09:16] I'm like, okay, yeah. Am I absolutely attracted to Andrew Huberman? Yes. Does it bother me? Yes. Am I completely bothered by him at this point? Yes, because this is part of it. So he had this guy on called Conever. That's his last name, like something Conever. And he is sort of like the peptide daddy.

Speaker 1:
[09:36] Okay. The guy who like does all the press tours and talks about it or- Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[09:40] I was reading a New Yorker article about peptides and it was like Rick Rubin asked Conever to go on Andrew Huberman's podcast. I'm like, okay, wow, could there be more of a like sort of like-

Speaker 1:
[09:49] 2026.

Speaker 2:
[09:49] Yeah. Like kind of like-

Speaker 1:
[09:51] We're going to look bad with that.

Speaker 2:
[09:52] Leveling up bro culture. I can just imagine so many guys coming like, oh, Rick Rubin, Conever. So this guy, he runs a peptide clinic where you spend $15,000 a year to be a part of it. And he will work with you and to personally build your peptide regimen. So I was just immediately like, okay, so this guy's gone on Huber Mitch talked about science, but essentially he's just advertising his clinic, his business, which is extremely elite and expensive. And he is sort of saying like, we work with pharmacies to make sure that what you're injecting is legit.

Speaker 1:
[10:29] And like safe. But which we'll get to also is one of the big problems. And just because they're saying it doesn't mean they're being regulated to make sure that. I mean, one of the issues is that because it's not regulated, there are no central safety standards in testing and these things. So people like that. And I'm not saying that they aren't actually testing for safety.

Speaker 2:
[10:48] They're not.

Speaker 1:
[10:49] But they're held to their own standard is what the problem is. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[10:52] Also, the point is there's... Okay, we're going to get into the science and the data. There's not data on peptides in a way for people to be injecting them. And this Conevour guy has said, and I quote, I'm not a big vaccine guy. A lot of them don't have the data. So it's like, okay, so now we're entering...

Speaker 1:
[11:09] Somebody thinks peptides do.

Speaker 2:
[11:10] Yeah. So it's just like, okay, you have... Like the fact that Andrew Huberman is having someone like that on his podcast, like I'm not trying to be like left versus right. Like vaccines have the data. Anyone who's saying they don't have the data has just been brainwashed by this insane maha movement trying to push people away from like a medical brilliant breakthrough that has saved so many lives, but for political gain, trying to question vaccines while pushing these things that, again, let's talk about it now, have not been properly studied. Yeah, vaccines have been.

Speaker 1:
[11:45] Yeah, there's these massive clinical trials on so many vaccines. Like you could argue at the beginning of COVID, of course, we were like in the midst of a live experiment figuring out and they were still doing like groups of clinical trials on humans and then spreading it to more and then giving it to more and constantly testing. Yeah, I guess it's worth just starting.

Speaker 2:
[12:03] Also, the mechanisms of mRNA vaccines.

Speaker 1:
[12:06] We talked about it for decades.

Speaker 2:
[12:08] Yes, and they, it's like the vaccine leaves your system really quickly and you just build the fricking. Okay, anyways, go to our episode on mRNA vaccines to learn about how non-dangerous and effective they are. That being said, this Konaver guy who Andrew Huberman essentially just got on to advertise his expensive elite clinic, does not necessarily believe in vaccines. And to me, it's just like from a science perspective and reading a lot of researchers who have talked about the data and how it's cherry picked by Konaver and these people, it's very nefarious, very scary. And I think in many ways, Andrew Huberman's kind of propping that up. I think should be questioned like as to the validity of his podcast.

Speaker 1:
[12:49] Yeah, if you're gonna bring someone on who not only is promoting something for their own self-gain, that is actually not that well studied in humans. And we can also talk about how often animal studies end up translating to humans. It's way less than you would think, to be honest. But then is also in the same breath, criticizing vaccines. It's like a very interesting position to be in, because it would be one thing if they didn't, they also believed in vaccines.

Speaker 2:
[13:15] But yeah, Andrew Huberman definitely believes in vaccines, but he injected himself with I think it was the BPC 157 after an injury and said it healed himself in two weeks. And there's a lot of anecdotal research.

Speaker 1:
[13:29] People's personal experiences of which you can never know. Is it a coincidence? Is it actually correlated? Is it actually causal? It's not to say that that isn't helping. Of course, animal studies lead us to believe things might happen in humans, but ultimately you're taking that risk. Maybe you're ahead of the curb and you're gonna get lucky in that specific peptide you took does the thing. But even if it does, we don't know. What are the trade-offs? What are the long-term implications?

Speaker 2:
[13:56] Yeah, let's get into that. Cause it's spooky AF. It's essentially cancer.

Speaker 1:
[14:00] Okay, so. The only peptides that have had large-scale human trials would be like GLP-1 drugs.

Speaker 2:
[14:09] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[14:10] None of them have had large-scale human trials. There's no ASAPSCIENCE trials. There's no safety trials. So, just keep this in mind. It doesn't mean that they, some of them we won't find are super effective and super safe. And like, we should be taking them. That might be the answer for some of these, but just remember anything you're buying out there, unless it's literally these pharmaceuticals that obviously the big pharmacy companies know they can sell because they've been tested and they won't be sued to oblivion. That's another thing I want to bring up at the end is like, a lot of these are not being sold by big pharmaceutical companies. Why do you think that is? Like if they're so breakthrough, exactly.

Speaker 2:
[14:48] They're literally not.

Speaker 1:
[14:49] They realize, oh my God, some Megalotude works, we're going to sell like that shit like crazy.

Speaker 2:
[14:54] So BPC157, this has been invented. The idea of it has been around for a long time. It has never made it to human trials because it's genuinely not worked. So it's BPC157, it's discovered in a lab, it's likely a product of bacteria found in the gut. And so it was early on thought it could heal ulcers, like regenerate nerves, like aid muscle repair, things that people are saying it will do. But most of the studies that a lot of people will find from ChatGPT about peptides are by small research studies done by people who have patents for these actual peptides. So there's a lot of like nefarious studies.

Speaker 1:
[15:34] As in it's like for their own benefit to sell.

Speaker 2:
[15:37] Sorry, no, it's like literally like the Conevour guy is like a scientist. Like his lab will make a small little study that will give cherry picked information to the internet ChatGPT. Now you look up ChatGPT peptides and these things start coming up that look like valid scientific research, but they're not when you actually talk to the scientists who aren't a part of these patents, like who are genuinely not biased. They are the ones who are like these haven't gone to human trials because they have not been proven to be effective enough to even try in human trials. And then that being said, of course, this BPC 157, it could reduce inflammation, which is a part of repair or things that people want, but it's also been bound to increase free radicals and lead to the development of new blood vessels in your body, which can sometimes lead to cancer.

Speaker 1:
[16:22] Right, so that's their fear is like, I think it's important to say it's not like they have seen that happening, but the theoretical understanding is if you're promoting all this growth, you could potentially aggravate or stimulate on like other cancer growths or something that's precancerous in your body without knowing or without intentionally having that happen.

Speaker 2:
[16:41] But if you think about the biology of cancer, the definition of cancer is unrestrained cellular growth.

Speaker 1:
[16:47] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:47] And so what a lot of these peptides are actually doing is messing with your growth hormones to create cellular growth.

Speaker 1:
[16:55] Right.

Speaker 2:
[16:56] So, you know, they're not tested, and in the same breath that you could anecdotally be like, Andrew Huberman's back fell better.

Speaker 1:
[17:03] Right.

Speaker 2:
[17:03] When you look at the actual biochemistry that I'm reading, it does not, it would not surprise me if a lot of people who are doing this started to get cancer at higher rates.

Speaker 1:
[17:12] I mean, I think that's a lot to say. You can't say that yet. I want to say in the same breath that we can't say whether they work or not, because there are not human trials. We cannot say that they cause cancer. We can theoretically guess that that may be a consequence, but there is no evidence. We just literally don't know. Of course, it's worth listening to that.

Speaker 2:
[17:30] I just think injecting yourself with something that creates new vasculature and unrestrained cellular growth is not a smart thing to be doing when it comes to what a tumor is.

Speaker 1:
[17:42] Sure, but we don't have evidence to know.

Speaker 2:
[17:45] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[17:46] Well, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying the whole point is that we just can't say much about it in terms of what it does to humans. And going back to the animal study, so replicating the results of animal study in large scale human trials that then lead to regulatory approval has a success rate of 5-10%. So in other words, when they're able to see a drug is doing a cool thing in an animal like repairing their tissue, the odds that that will then translate and actually head down the path of regulatory approval in humans is 5-10%. That doesn't mean it won't be one of those that is part of that 10%, but if you were a betting person, you would be like, okay, ultimately this probably won't have the same desired effect in humans or there might be undesirable consequences that we cannot yet see and is not happening in these animals like mice or whatever. So just worth keeping that in mind.

Speaker 2:
[18:42] And you're injecting it. That's the other thing. Also a New Yorker article, the journalist bought BPC 157, tested it, it had lead in it, bought TB 500 and tested it. It had endotoxins in it. So it's like, the concept of injecting yourself with something that you have bought online is insane.

Speaker 1:
[19:05] Yeah, I mean, anything that's just like, what? I think anything that you think is for your health should be tested by an actual regulatory body, not just only held to the standard of that company saying they've tested it. And of course, something you're injecting should probably have the highest level of those testing, but this happens as well with supplements, right? There was the huge report that came out on even protein powders, realizing so many of them have leaden and other chemicals that, in large enough doses, can impact your body. And it's because these are being done in factories that maybe don't have the same level of standard to prove or to test on that scale, that those potential toxins are not actually in their product. It doesn't mean they're putting them out on purpose, but I think that was one of the biggest things to remember. This is not a regulated space. And Health Canada found exactly that there was heavy metals and bacterial endotoxins. I know you just said that. So the risks of putting that in your body.

Speaker 2:
[20:06] And injection is, from a biochemical and biophysiological perspective, so much more intense for your body than, for example, eating something.

Speaker 1:
[20:13] Yeah, you're going to direct into your bloodstream.

Speaker 2:
[20:15] It's going right down into your stomach to then be broken down, to have your body actually try. Yes, try to... When you inject something, you're passing all of that's going right into your blood. And therefore, you're actually missing out on the potential safety net of the way you consume this drug, which I think is what's so fascinating to me that people are doing this, is that they're willing to inject. If it was a pill, it's like...

Speaker 1:
[20:37] What I want to say, though, and it's not like I disagree with you, I just think it's like... The problem is not just because you're injecting it. Obviously, that is a layer of... There's also concern about people doing that on their own. But people are doing that with now these GLP-1 drugs. And so obviously, it can be done safely if you are also being monitored and helped by a medical professional who's overseeing you and touching base. And same goes with oral medication. If you're on a regular oral medication, you're probably having to go get your prescription and it's all being monitored. So I don't think we have...

Speaker 2:
[21:10] But this isn't because they're buying it online.

Speaker 1:
[21:12] I know, but one day it might be. So I'm saying I don't think the injection... Of course, I always have been a little spooked about injecting myself or something, but there's lots of people that have to give themselves insulin and are injecting themselves and it can be done safely. But it's just like there's so many layers that haven't been addressed yet.

Speaker 2:
[21:29] But injecting something you bought online?

Speaker 1:
[21:31] Yes, but there might be a... Like if you bought it was MPEG online, what's the difference?

Speaker 2:
[21:35] No, but I mean like if...

Speaker 1:
[21:36] Yeah, if you're buying it from a random store on the internet and it's being shipped from China.

Speaker 2:
[21:41] Which is what people are doing, or like that guy in the gym.

Speaker 1:
[21:44] I guess that's what I mean. It's not the injection in and of itself, is what I'm trying to say. It is the fact that everything before that injection is the problem. If and when we have human trials that prove these are effective and safe and that under medical professional supervision and prescription, you can use it, then fine, the injection is not the problem. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[22:07] No, but I know I'm saying it's shocking though for me to think about people, or you getting something from your gym. From some guy and then injecting it. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 1:
[22:16] It's like, yeah, to me, it's like you're taking the same risk as just like a hard drug. Like you don't know necessarily where you came from. Maybe you can get something to test a drug that you bought from someone. But this is the difference between like why governments should even consider regulating and dealing with drugs to make it safer and make it like, just like regulated. You know what I mean? I think that, I don't know where I'm going with that. But yeah.

Speaker 2:
[22:44] So are you going to do peptides?

Speaker 1:
[22:45] No, I have literally, this is okay. So let's just talk about our personal opinions. Like I in general, I'm afraid of all drugs and not that I have like never tried. And obviously we talk about except we eat a lot on this podcast. But it took me a long time to even feel comfortable with weed. And even when it comes to like therapy and anti-anxiety meds or anti-depression meds that I've like considered through the past, this is just like what I've gone through because I've always had like a hesitation between taking something and I feel the same way about like drugs like this or drugs that claim to help you with XYZ. Of course I like consume coffee and other people would say, well, that's changing your body and I take creatine. So those things do affect me. But I just overall I'm like, I want to do the baby steps. I think like long term, but if you are a healthy person and have a long term goal, that's just to continue being healthy and take your way to like a healthy position further whether it's growing muscle or it's running further. I've just come to be like, I kind of want to take that in my own hands. And I think for me, it's like only when I'm in the space of like feeling unhealthy, whether that's mentally unhealthy or physically unhealthy, that's when I would consider like drugs for myself, whether that's like obviously from a doctor.

Speaker 2:
[24:06] But yeah, you love Advil.

Speaker 1:
[24:08] Love. I'm not from, no, I've done really well to slowly kick my Advil.

Speaker 2:
[24:12] But for a while I was like, well, my boyfriend's addicted to Advil.

Speaker 1:
[24:15] I grew up in an Advil family, okay? And it was like, oh, you feel like a little, little thing behind your eye, you're going to have it.

Speaker 2:
[24:22] Advil family.

Speaker 1:
[24:23] I don't know why, but that was, and I'm not trying to like give this opinion to anybody else, but that like, I feel like, and GLP-1 drugs to me are the same. Like if you have health condition or health issues and you're talking to your doctor and they're like, this could actually, the risk can really outweigh the benefits, sorry, the benefits outweigh the risks. Like, of course, work on that, take that. But if you're just like a relatively healthy person, do you really need to take a weight loss drug? I'm not here to talk to anyone else. This is just like how I've sort of like constructed my brain for the future because obviously I'm tempted to like look at these things and be like, how cool would it be to hit my goals faster? Whether that be like peace of mind with like whatever, health, mental health drugs, or whether that be like muscle growth with that. And I guess like-

Speaker 2:
[25:10] With what, these?

Speaker 1:
[25:11] Like peptides or not that I've ever considered steroids, but obviously you like see people talking about that and you're like, I understand the appeal, but at the same time when it comes to health and fitness, I think it's just like a long-term goal and it's more about like sustaining yourself over your whole life, that if you can create the habit without those things, and that's kind of like my perspective.

Speaker 2:
[25:31] What about you? I'm going to do peptides. Oh, great. No, are you kidding? I'm like, this is so freaking insane and idiotic. I'm obviously, me, it's like this is my whole opinion on everything. I'm like, this is so stupid. I think what is so interesting is like peptides, micro-peptides, micro-proteins. The research of that is interesting. If you understand the science, it's cool that in recent decades, they've been like, wait, we've been ignoring these small biochemical parts of the cell. So in the past, they literally were, the way that they would siphon off which proteins to study would be based on how large they were. Then slowly they started realizing, oh, these small little peptides, micro-proteins are really important. They're important for developing a fetus. They're important for venom in animals. They had been ignored by science. So I'm like, okay, cool.

Speaker 1:
[26:21] Yeah, that is really cool.

Speaker 2:
[26:22] Now science is learning more about the importance of peptides. Great. I'm excited for them to understand how to use them in a scientific way. I'm not, that doesn't mean I'm going to use some weird cherry picked information and inject my leg.

Speaker 1:
[26:34] No, I know.

Speaker 2:
[26:34] It's just like, I can see where the science is like, oh cool, we've ignored all these things. This is so exciting, let's go study it. And then people co-opting that into their own little like self-growth ma-ha, like culture thing to then inject themselves. So I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The jump from the science to that, I think is idiotic. And like my opinion is that-

Speaker 1:
[26:56] I'm way premature.

Speaker 2:
[26:56] If you're injecting yourself with peptides, I just think that you're dumb. Like literally, I'm just like-

Speaker 1:
[27:00] At this point, yeah, I mean-

Speaker 2:
[27:02] This is my annoying, this is like, if you're injecting yourself with peptides, you're dumb. You haven't read the science and you're taking a risk and it's not worth it, is my opinion. And I've been talking to lots of friends or like, I want to do peptides or like, I was literally texting with a friend this morning who was like, I'm really curious. I kind of want to get into it because I found all this stuff on chat, GBT, it's going to make this. And I'm just like, oh my God, it makes me scared. Cause I'm just like, we're just getting way ahead of the scientific, the way that science has been constructed to then get to this sort of like self growth, growth, like a Manosphere looks maxing thing. Like I'm watching happen.

Speaker 1:
[27:37] It's a conversation around like the idea of optimizing the body in the first place. And at what point, I guess that's what I was trying to touch on too, is like, at what point is it beyond just like health? And of course you're allowed to like be interested in your life, your body, your health, your ability to live in this world and feel good about it. But it goes back to just like the science being totally incomplete. And as a result, at this point, it really just is snake oil until proven not, you know? And that's like, there are things that we might've called snake oil class that can eventually be proven. So it's not to say, it's really fascinating. And most of these drugs are being sold to go into studies. Or sorry, I shouldn't say most are, but that's like the presumption, right? Like when they're being sold, they're like, this is for research purposes. And that's awesome that researchers are actually stepping into the space and hopefully we'll find the peptides that do have a lot of potential and can be used to help people stay healthy. But the vast majority, if not all of them are untested, unregulated, we're just having, we're in the animal study phase. We're not in the human study phase yet.

Speaker 2:
[28:43] And if you are someone who has injected yourself with a peptide and you have not gotten a vaccine, then you do not understand science. Then you are willing to look over scientific research on tons and tons of humans and safety and efficacy to then skip to a peptide, which has not enough information in humans to inject yourself. If you're deciding that you're going to do a peptide over a vaccine, then you don't understand science. And in my opinion, you're dumb, which is obviously hyperbolic, but it means that you're being brainwashed by a bigger movement that is completely not rooted in science. Scientists are not trying to harm you. People who are like, you need a vaccine, are not trying to harm you. People being like, these peptides don't have enough information, therefore you shouldn't take them. They're not trying to trick you into not taking the peptide.

Speaker 1:
[29:30] So that you can't be on time.

Speaker 2:
[29:32] They want it to be safe. Vaccines are safe. Peptides are not safe until proven safe. So it's frustrating when I'm learning about a bunch of people who are injecting themselves with peptides they've bought online, but are refusing to get a vaccine. Something hasn't fallen apart in the culture of science in the world, which I know to be true. It's so devastating. It's a really hard part about living right now, but it's hard to watch people inject themselves with the peptide and then go on and on about how vaccines cause autism or something completely made up and sold to them by an insane US regime or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[30:06] It is just such an interesting thing to me about how those two things can exist. And I understand on the one hand, the desire when you're learning about something like peptides, but that's really cool. That's interesting.

Speaker 2:
[30:16] It is cool.

Speaker 1:
[30:16] It is interesting to learn about, but then the disconnect around... And I can see where the different ideas come from, and the fear around vaccines and the conversations around pharmaceutical industries and the cost and the exploitation. I see those levels, but it's like when you put them side by side in the same person is when it's interesting that there's not the pause to be like, huh, why am I skeptical on this end, but totally just buying into the center.

Speaker 2:
[30:42] Because you're getting lied to. It's literally just like, it's like sad. It's like sheep. It's like you're just being told something and you're believing it.

Speaker 1:
[30:47] It is snake oil. It's like the literal definition of being like... These things happen. Every decade, there's a new trend and it changes, and there's been so many random foods and drugs that pop up in pop culture and then die off the next decade. And we're like, remember when people did that thing?

Speaker 2:
[31:05] Yeah, remember when people inject themselves with peptides.

Speaker 1:
[31:07] Yeah, and most of these will be that, and some of them won't. But it's like, do you want to be the guinea pig? That's sort of what's happening. There's a massive experiment going on right now.

Speaker 2:
[31:18] Well, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[31:19] And it's not being a tracked experiment necessarily until we retroactively go, oh, this group of people, we can see which ones have these weird things happening in them because we realize they told us 10 years ago, they took these peptides that were not regulated, that they don't remember where they got them from. So well, OK, there's like, but it's still like, I will say, I'm excited to see where it goes in terms of human trials.

Speaker 2:
[31:40] And like, I think that's really like, I'll I'll inject myself with a peptide when all of the research has been finished, when we understand it's not causing cancer, which it very easily could be doing. And it's regulated. It's coming from a pharmacy. And I go to my doctor and they go, you know what? You could benefit from a peptide until that happens. I'm not like, I'm not crazy. That's crazy. It's crazy. It is crazy. Okay. It is crazy.

Speaker 1:
[32:02] So be safe out there, people.

Speaker 2:
[32:03] But also, oh, there was something I was going to say. I feel like we've been having this happen a lot in this episode.

Speaker 1:
[32:10] Just like forgetting.

Speaker 2:
[32:11] Yeah. Or like there was something.

Speaker 1:
[32:12] Well, we're jet lagged. Okay. Oh, it was a month off.

Speaker 2:
[32:15] No. Yeah. It was a, it was about the, so a lot of people are relying on, a lot of people are relying on anecdotal research for peptides. So people like Andrew Huberman being like, oh, it healed my back. But in the same breath, like I started going on the peptide, like Reddit websites, people are like, I have a rash.

Speaker 1:
[32:33] Right.

Speaker 2:
[32:33] My vision is like going away slowly. Like it's like, if you're going to do the anecdotal positive.

Speaker 1:
[32:39] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[32:40] And then there were these two women who were injected themselves with peptides at this big, like maha, like build your life conference in Vegas. And they ended up being on respirators in the hospital. Like they almost died. So it's like, if you're going to do the anecdotal, okay, someone says that their ankle feels better. You have to also understand the anecdotal stories of people truly almost dying. So it's like, we don't know what's in these peptides. They're not regulated. Some have lead, some have endotoxins. Like it's just, don't inject yourself with something you didn't get from a pharmacy and trust a pharmacist. Like it's just so intense. But then the other aspect of this, which like I'm learning more and more about from like, again, articles. I don't know how, like I'm not part of the Manosphere movement or anything like that. I mean, I am a man and I am on the internet, but there is this idea of, what is it called when you just don't care about anything and you don't even care about living or dying?

Speaker 1:
[33:37] It's like kind of like, when you're not, I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[33:42] It's like, there's a part of like, I feel stupid.

Speaker 1:
[33:46] I know the word.

Speaker 2:
[33:47] No.

Speaker 1:
[33:47] Yeah. It's like when you're completely, oh my God, are people at home like screaming? Like anyways, it was, you all know what we mean.

Speaker 2:
[33:55] I was learning about gropers, like those insane right wing people who are like, even now they're like Trump's not like even like literally evil enough.

Speaker 1:
[34:04] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[34:04] And they're kind of turning on Trump. And they're, a part of why like Trump was elected by young men was because they're like, we got to blow up the system because we don't even care. Like everything's against us. We're so...

Speaker 1:
[34:16] They're rather just like throw it all away.

Speaker 2:
[34:18] Throw it all out the window. It's like the memification of life. It's like life's a joke. Everything's a joke. Like who cares if we live or die? Like things are pathetic. So I can imagine that is what's working into their ability to give themselves peptides that aren't safe.

Speaker 1:
[34:32] And be like, I don't care what the risk is.

Speaker 2:
[34:34] Yeah. They're like, oh, like, I don't know. Like clavicular is telling me in order to at least like get a girl, I need to look amazing. I'm going to inject myself. Who cares if I die because I don't care if I live or die. Anyways, that's the sort of culture of the way my life is online. And I don't think that this is all men, of course. And I actually think that it's sometimes getting way too much energy from the general public. Like I've been reading recent articles about how young people are more confident and like less narcissistic than ever before because they're actually being raised by parents who are like in therapy. Yeah, like there's like this idea that like young people have like turned out right and become these sort of like horrible, like selfish little boys. I think it's over, like I think it's an interesting story. And Trump was elected by young men. So it's led to this whole thing. And we're going to talk about it more in episodes about the Manosphere. But a part of me is like, this isn't everyone, but I think they're taking in a lot of oxygen. And I also think those are probably people who are willing to inject themselves with some of the best peptides. You know what I mean? Like they're not worried about taking a few years off their life or getting cancer when they're older, because they're not thinking about that right now. They're like, from what I've learned about them again from articles, they're not that interested in caring about living or dying. So I'm like, that is like, part of this has to do with the Manosphere. Like it does. Like even Andrew Huberman, all these people like...

Speaker 1:
[36:00] Yeah, and it's internet culture in general. Like I think these things get gobbled up and become trends, and everyone sees them, and it's like, we just live in such a bizarre time where these kinds of things can like, just become something so suddenly. And we have such insane access to like, information in a way that it's so easy to get wrapped up into also just like the idea of needing to look and act and be a certain way. It's hard not to fall into that.

Speaker 2:
[36:27] And I wonder like, yeah, I haven't got like a peptide. I mean, I'm trying to be on social media, but I'm like imagining if someone was convincing me about some peptide thing online.

Speaker 1:
[36:37] Yeah, and a lot of people rely on like friends and word of mouth and feel more comfortable and safe doing that. And then you're like in a gym culture, and maybe you're being offered peptides in a sauna. So it's like, it is interesting that the internet has also facilitated, like even this podcast, right? Like the way we talk, people feel more connected to us than a random thing elsewhere, an article. Like if we recommend something, then people are more likely to feel like they can trust it because they've listened to us all the time.

Speaker 2:
[37:05] And Reddit, I think Reddit's crazy. Like I'm so much more like...

Speaker 1:
[37:10] Finally gets into Reddit in 2026.

Speaker 2:
[37:11] Well, it's crazy. No, I know it's true, but it is so convincing. Like it's really interesting to see Reddit threads on things and how I walk away being like, that's information I now know. That was literally written by some random guy.

Speaker 1:
[37:26] Yeah, you just kind of like take it at face value.

Speaker 2:
[37:28] It's so well written because it gets like upvoted or whatever. And then all of a sudden you're like... I mean, what I'm talking about is like opinions on Rosalia or something like innocuous, but it's so convincing. Reddit is such, I think, a dangerous place for misinformation because it's coming from people. It's really well written. There's a lot of like, oh, by the way, a scientist here. And then they say something and all of a sudden it's like, wait, well, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[37:52] And there are a lot of really, not even just on Reddit, something that happens a lot in the health space, and we're all prone to this, that certain talking points become like, what would you say? Like the Bible, like I'm even thinking of creatine and the way people talk about it. Now we've talked about creatine and like how generally it is like really studied and it seems to be healthy. And there's like lots of even studies coming out about like how it affects the mind and mental health and all these kinds of things. But then people just start touting things because they've heard them. And I've seen like people on TikTok and takedowns of TikToks of people getting into these crazy things of like, you don't take your creatine every day, the second you stop, you lose everything from it, and you have to start from scratch. And like these turn, I just see conversations and I'm sure this will happen. Like even on this podcast, like if people who are really into the peptide world, find something that kind of contradicts that, it goes into like talking points around that support that movement. And I'm not saying like some of those talking points may not be legitimate, but it's easy to have those knee jerk reactions. And when suddenly you see hundreds of comments, and now we have to remember we live in a world where there really are like millions, if not billions of bots on the internet that were always being influenced by and interest to make sure Reddit threads have comments that are like automatically populated to make you think and feel certain ways and TikTok comments and Instagram comments. Like it's really difficult to have a true meaningful conversation and I don't know, like not get caught up in being stuck on our current state. And so I should say even for ourselves in the future, obviously I want to be like peptides are great and now they're studied and now they are safe and or we can say they're safe.

Speaker 2:
[39:31] I will inject myself with them.

Speaker 1:
[39:33] I think that's why I'm like keen to keep bringing that up because it's like, I'm not here to say peptides are bad for you, but like we just can't say they're not. And I think for me that's not worth the risk. And I actually think for you, it shouldn't be either unless you're somebody who's like, actually no, I'm not even gonna say that. But I was like, obviously when people go to experimental drugs and start human trials, it's usually people who are willing to take that risk because they have maybe a massive injury. And a trial is like, hey, we need humans who are willing to take this risk and you have a massive injury and maybe it will help you and maybe it will also make you feel sick every day you take it. That's what usually happens in those initial human trials. It's like people who need it that bad, not the average person who just like kind of sprained their ankle, you know what I mean? And that happens a lot with like new cancer treatments where they're like, you have cancer, are you willing to take this experimental drug because we need humans to try it, but we can't force this on to random people. And so it's worth thinking about that. Are you at that stage where you're that desperate for something then?

Speaker 2:
[40:35] It's pretty crazy because it's like, I mean, I guess as people who are gonna do this, are the people who are probably already doing steroids, of which there are many. It is pretty wild what people are willing to do in the pursuit of aesthetics or something.

Speaker 1:
[40:48] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:50] Like steroids are really interesting. We've done lots of videos on them in podcasts. Go listen to them. They're kind of proven to be quite dangerous. And it's like people are still willing to do it.

Speaker 1:
[40:59] Yeah, but they work. Yeah, I guess it's the question of like, what are you willing to trade off? And who are you in the terms of, obviously it makes sense for someone who's like a power lifter in competitions. There's a difference. I mean, if it's not illegal for them to do it in terms of the competition.

Speaker 2:
[41:14] I think it's like very normalized in competition.

Speaker 1:
[41:17] Yeah, but it's become so normalized if you go to the gym to consider doing drugs.

Speaker 2:
[41:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[41:22] Like just if you're just an average person going to the gym. So that's like, I think the culture we live in, that it's like so pervasive and these like really niche, it's not just fitness, but these really niche areas where you can optimize. We're seeing experts who it makes sense to optimize themselves in all these ways. And it's like coming down, it's trickling down to like the average person who then thinks like, I need to be doing these things to optimize at the same level as someone who's, this is their professional career.

Speaker 2:
[41:48] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[41:49] And they're willing to take risk because they make their money off of it. You know, like the rock. Yeah. Like you're kind of like, I get it. The rock, he did steroids probably. I don't know if he did, I'm assuming.

Speaker 2:
[41:58] I mean, I saw the rock in person working out at my gym and I was absolutely blown away. I was like, he has to be on steroids. I was like, that is an insane, like it was the biggest person I've ever seen. And I was like, I don't think he's just eating 48 chickens a day. Like it looked, no offense, Dwayne, but like it was not Natty. Like, and I don't think that he, I don't think people think it is.

Speaker 1:
[42:17] Yeah, I don't know. And he may not be on them now, but maybe he did them, you know what I mean? Like to get to that point, I have no idea what his status is.

Speaker 2:
[42:23] Well, I will not be doing peptides. I will not be doing steroids. I will not be doing GLP-1 unless I, you know, become addicted to something, because apparently they're like anti-addiction. But I will be talking to my doctor about, I'm like, can I test my new doctor? I'm going to say all three. I'll be like, I want to do all three and then like wink and be like, see what they say. Because it actually would be really interesting.

Speaker 1:
[42:45] To see their response to it. Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2:
[42:48] My doctor barely even knew about PrEP.

Speaker 1:
[42:50] Wow, well, that's embarrassing.

Speaker 2:
[42:52] Actually, like she did, but it was just an interesting moment where I was like, she's really young. She's amazing and young, but I could tell she was like, she was like, this is the moment where I can't get it wrong. And I could just see that she was panicking.

Speaker 1:
[43:05] I was like, the gay guy asked the gay drug question and I'm not prepared.

Speaker 2:
[43:09] Or just being like, don't say the wrong thing or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[43:13] Don't be problematic. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[43:14] Or no, it was that she was actually like, you have to go on PrEP. In a way that I was sort of like, well, I don't want to. She was like, well, you have to. That was you fucking whore. There's only a matter.

Speaker 1:
[43:25] OK, on that note, I think we should wrap up. Hopefully, that's been interesting. Oh, no, I don't know. I'm just like, we've been talking for 45 minutes.

Speaker 2:
[43:32] Yeah, we're watching the come back and she's like doing her podcast. Yeah, they're like, oh, you reached 41 minutes. Oh, thank God I can finish.

Speaker 1:
[43:41] OK, well, hopefully, that was useful for anyone out there who is curious about PrEP.

Speaker 2:
[43:44] And we were off for a month, but we're back. And we have someone to help us. I finished my master's degree, so I have a little vacay.

Speaker 1:
[43:53] But we're like back to business now.

Speaker 2:
[43:56] We saw the Rosalia concert. We'll be hearing more about that. We'll have an episode coming up where we talk about.

Speaker 1:
[44:00] Yeah, catch up.

Speaker 2:
[44:01] Yeah, not science. And yeah. And next week, we're going to be talking. Oh, it's also somewhat red light therapy.

Speaker 1:
[44:08] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[44:08] Which I'm so into. I've not done it, but it's really interesting science. And we're going to talk about other things. Anyways, thanks for listening.

Speaker 1:
[44:16] Thanks for listening. See you later.