transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] This paid message is from Portland Seminary, where we believe the best leaders are formed, not just trained. Whether you're ministering to your church, shepherding a nonprofit or leading a business, our programs will equip you to think with clarity, live with integrity and serve with the heart of God. Join a community that cultivates maturity, resilience and holistic formation, and pursue your calling in programs that fit your life. Learn more at pdxseminary.org.

Speaker 2:
[00:31] Blessings are not rights. Blessings are not guarantees. And yet we just are so prone to trying to explain and control those blessings that we lose the opportunity to be a blessing to one another as we bear one another's burdens.

Speaker 3:
[00:49] Hello, this is Russell Moore and this is The Russell Moore Show brought to you by Christianity Today. Here, we look for signposts in a strange time by standing fast to what really matters. Kingdom over culture wars, truth over tribalism, pilgrimage over partisanship, sanity over cynicism, witness over winning, and Christ over everything. Today, we have a conversation to do just that. Every once in a while, we do an event for Christianity Today's subscribers with a live stream conversation with someone whose work is making a difference in the world. And that's one of the things that we did very recently in a conversation with Karen Swallow Prior about infertility and how the church should respond, how the person should respond to childlessness and to praying for children and when that prayer is not being answered. If you'd like to be in on these conversations in the future, check the show notes for a special subscription discount for those of you who listen to this show. So here's Karen Swallow Prior and I talking about this really important subject. Hope you enjoy. Today, we're talking to Karen Swallow Prior about how the church should respond to infertility, to childlessness, to various issues. Most of you, I'm sure, are already familiar with Karen Swallow Prior. KSP is a very popular writer speaker. She's a contributing writer for The Dispatch. She's a columnist for Religion News Service. And she has written all over the place, for The Atlantic, for The Washington Post, New York Times, and for us here at Christianity Today. And she has a recent book. She's got several books, but her most recent book is You Have a Calling, Finding Your Vocation in the True, the Good and the Beautiful. And today we're going to talk about this subject of infertility drawing on Karen's article called The Birds and the Bees, Babies and Me in Christianity Today's March, April print magazine. If you haven't read it yet, there'll be a link in the comments and you can check it out there. And those of you who are watching, we want to hear from you. Type in your question that you have for Karen, and we will have that conversation in just a moment. So thanks for subscribing to CT and thanks for being here today. Karen, thanks for being here.

Speaker 2:
[03:25] Thanks, Russell. It's good to be here.

Speaker 3:
[03:27] You know, when we're talking about this subject, infertility and childlessness, this isn't a rare thing. As a matter of fact, the World Health Organization estimates that about one in every six people who are in the years of reproductive age worldwide experience infertility, at least at some time or the other. And yet, one of the things that many people experience is that the church seems to have a difficult time talking about it. There's always exceptions. Some churches aren't, but a lot of times, the church seems to have a difficult time talking about it. Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2:
[04:07] I think we all understand that there is a creational norm, and that is that men and women come together and God uses them to create more of his image bearers, and no one believes that and embraces that and embodies that more than the church. So when there is an aberration from that norm, it becomes difficult to talk about. It also involves sex, which can be difficult for the church to talk about in a robust and healthy way. But there also is the layer of just the personal nature of it. I mean, some people are infertile for medical reasons, physical reasons, some for perhaps they're, you know, they're just the relational reasons. And so even bringing it up requires kind of pressing into a lot of things that are personal and vulnerable and could be invasive. So it's just in short, it's a very delicate subject, but also one that is really important to the church and the life of the church. And so I'm so glad to see that there are, I think, more healthy conversations around it in the church now.

Speaker 3:
[05:11] Do you think that it's more difficult when pastors and leaders have kids because they then sort of feel reluctant to bring up the issue because they might say, I've obviously not experienced this and so it's awkward for me to talk about it. Do you think that's part of it as well?

Speaker 2:
[05:31] I think that might be part of it. And again, if it's someone else bringing it up rather than the person struggling with infertility, then that can be delicate. And so in some ways, I think the onus is more on those of us who are struggling or experiencing it if we're able to talk about it. I know I shared in my piece how I didn't talk about it, but part of that was just I didn't want to. I didn't, when you're in the middle of the story, you don't know how it will end. And so even bringing it up can be premature. So I think there are lots of variables that can make it difficult for the person who's experiencing it to bring it up and those who might have a pastoral hand to lend to the situation is hard for them to bring up as well.

Speaker 3:
[06:13] There are some images in scripture that kind of aren't mentioned that much anymore. I think of, for instance, blessed is the one who has a quiver full of the arrows of the children in his youth because it's been sort of taken by the quiver full movement. Even people who love that verse are kind of reluctant to use it in this context because people misunderstand them and think what they're actually saying. But there are a lot of other metaphors here, one of them being fruitfulness. You argue in your piece for CT that actually the experience that you have had of childlessness opened up an area of fruitfulness in your life. And so you say, my husband's been a teacher more than a teacher, a father figure to the teens he teaches in school. Likewise, I have been for a small number of my own students, a mother figure, to some they tell me the mother that they never had. And I've written books that have helped others to love the stories I love. How did you start to see this aspect of fruitfulness in your life? Did that take a while to sort of just reflecting back on it and seeing it? Or was there a moment when you started to say, wait a minute, this isn't just an experience of something with an N on the front of it or a less on the end of it, but actually something fruitful here? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[07:35] I mean, I think it was sort of a long process because I married so young at age 19. And it seemed like there were lots of years in which we might have children and we even thought we would eventually adopt if we didn't. So I never was exceedingly anxious about it. But in the meantime, to invoke the cliche, the Lord was opening a lot of doors for me in many areas of my life. And I really just all the time just wanted to have nothing that he didn't want for me. And so I tried to carry it all with an open hand and sort of assumed that at some point we would have children. But it wasn't until it was too late biologically and then even age-wise to consider adoption that I could really look and see the things that I know I would not have been able to do if I had had my attention drawn toward children that I had. And so it was a process. It was a journey. And yet, by God's grace, I feel like I was able to receive the gifts as they came along and to see what he had for me. And I think that's the challenge for all of us, because we like our formulas and we like our patterns and step-by-steps, and yet the Lord can do so many things that we would never even imagine. And so just being open to that, I think is the way that we can see all the fruitfulness that he allows us to bear.

Speaker 3:
[09:00] How do you encourage people, not just on this issue, but really on anything as we're praying for something? Maybe somebody who really wants children and is praying for children or with any other type of issue. You don't know how God is going to work in your life in areas that are different from what you think you're praying for at the time. How do we pray, in your view, in a way that is specific enough to actually bring our petitions to the Lord for a job, for a spouse, for children, for whatever, but also is open to these surprising ways that God might be working for our good?

Speaker 2:
[09:41] I think we absolutely have the right and privilege to come before the Lord with all of our hearts desires and to let him know what we desire. And yet, we also have to ask even more for him to give us the desires of our hearts so that we will desire what he wants for us. And so we can let our desires be known. And yet, I mean, for me, my prayer all the time, because I have very strong opinions, very strong preferences, very strong desires. And yes, because I know that I say, but Lord, please make it clear to me what your will is. Please make it clear. That is just a thing that I have prayed over and over. And maybe we have different ways of expressing it, but it's those two hands, the one in which we offer him our petitions and the other that we leave open to receive what he has for us.

Speaker 3:
[10:33] You know, there's an NPR report not long ago talking about the fact that there were 710,000 fewer babies born in the United States compared with two decades ago. And we look at all of the different reasons for that. There are economic reasons for it. There are the ways that it's harder for people to form and find relationships at the very beginning point. There are some people who don't want to have children because they don't think they're ready to. I mean, there are all kinds of different things going on. How do you see that as you look around and say, okay, we've got one group of people who are experiencing infertility, but then we've got other groups of people who are experiencing childlessness for completely different reasons. Is there a commonality there or a way to bear one another's burdens, or are these just completely different phenomena?

Speaker 2:
[11:30] I mean, I think there are so many interrelated connections, especially in this moment where we see a huge decline in the population in the US. I mean, we can't deny the numbers. And there are so many in my research for this article, I was fascinated to see that we talk about infertility, and we often look at sort of the black and white reasons for that, either some sort of physical obstacle or a relational one. And yet, there are contingencies all along the way, right? There are perhaps opportunities for relationships that were turned down for good reasons or for bad reasons, and that results in infertility. Or there are lifestyle choices, I mean, sort of physical lifestyle choices that have impingements on our health unknowingly, or just the match between two people. There are so many contingencies that can result in infertility. Some of them are biological, some of them are sociological, some are relational. There is usually no one single reason. And so, this is not just a personal, individual problem or issue. It's actually one that we do, as you said, have to bear together because there are so many implications as a result of it and so many reasons for it. You know, to go back to your point earlier about the Bible being clear that children are a blessing, we have such a tendency to add to scripture, I think. They are a blessing. And if we just sort of stop there and dwell on that and realize that blessings are not rights, blessings are not guarantees, blessings aren't received by everyone in the same numbers. And if we accept that they are blessings, then we also have to accept the times and the situations in which the blessings don't come. And yet we just are so prone to trying to explain and control those blessings that we lose the opportunity to be a blessing to one another as we bear one another's burdens.

Speaker 3:
[13:28] A couple of viewers, or I know subscribers, have asked a version of this question, which is, I know as somebody who was previously going through infertility, that it's true, there aren't a lot of people who want to talk about it in the church, but often what happens is you have people who then are presented with this whole array of medical options, and they don't have anybody to talk to about it. And sometimes you've got perfectly valid, in a Christian view, medical interventions, and sometimes there are some of them that are ethically problematic. How does somebody know when they're in an ethically murky sort of place?

Speaker 2:
[14:13] I mean, it certainly can be an ethically murky place. And I think we have to start there. Even in the lead up to this live stream, I saw a lot of comments, got a lot of comments, and people can be very divided when it comes to the technology that is involved in assisting reproduction. And I think we can be thankful for the blessing of technology and the blessing of medical advancements in general. That is not something to shun or shy away from. And yet, especially if we are pro-life, and that's part of our conversation today, I think we have to sort of start there, to start with the sanctity of human life and to be unwilling or at least cautious about anything that would create a life that is put at undue risk once it is created. That's a starting point. But so many of the other issues are medically complicated, technologically complicated, and advancements are being made all the time. So I think someone who is in this situation, I mean, I talk about my experience that goes back to the late 80s, early 90s, when the medical reproductive technology that were available were not as advanced as today, there wasn't a lot of conversation about it, and the doctors just assumed that you would just take the next step, take the next step, because the object was to be pregnant and have a child without necessarily thinking about the ethical murkiness of it. So I think we proceed slowly. A couple might seek counsel from a counselor or a therapist, as well as from medical professionals. There are more resources out there. I just want to point out what I'm fond of, because it's been out a while. A little book called Walking Through Infertility by Matthew Arbo, who is a Christian ethicist. His book has been out for about 10 years, and he walks so pastorally and wisely through it. I did write the foreword for it and shared a little of my experience. But we have to look for resources and for reliable resources, theologically, ethically. And again, know from the biblical examples that taking things into our own hands in a way that dishonors God and dishonors the sanctity of life, is not going to lead to, I think, a good outcome. And yet there are so many other possibilities that we can wisely seek in the middle.

Speaker 3:
[16:35] We have a really poignant question that came in from a subscriber named Hunter who says this, my wife and I had an ectopic pregnancy that took both our child and the natural ways for us to get pregnant again. How can I help my heart respond to anger and yearning while pastoring to my church body and teaching hope at the same time? I think that's a really common experience for people. I know it was for me kind of trying to work through feelings of anger at the very beginning. But he's in a unique situation where he says, it's something that I'm trying to grapple with, but I can't really talk about it. What would you say to them?

Speaker 2:
[17:22] To Hunter, I would say, first of all, just acknowledging to yourself and to the Lord, these very natural feelings of anger at God, anger at life and circumstances. I mean, that's where we start, especially being in the role of the pastor, that makes it harder. But even pastors and leaders have to work through the disappointments in life. And so I am a big advocate of good therapy and biblical counsel. That can be a wise thing. I don't have easy answers or solutions to the fertility problem or to the emotions that we go through. But the Bible gives us so many examples of people wrestling through doubt and anger and frustration with God. These are perfectly legitimate things to feel and to express and to bring before the Lord. And we just have to wait patiently for Him to show us what He has to teach us through it, while still just simply acknowledging the pain and the disappointment that not only these kinds of situations bring, but so many bring. Any kind of death is hard to handle, especially the death of an unborn child, which goes against the trajectory that we expect. And so there are support groups, counselors, and it just takes time. There are no easy quick solutions.

Speaker 3:
[18:41] We have two questions that are sort of playing off of each other. Aaron asks, how can pastors serve women in particular in our churches? And he writes, due to cultural expectations on women, this burden seems to weigh on them more significantly. So what's a practical way to care rather than just to avoid the pain point? And then following up on that, another subscriber, Benjamin, asks, so what's a helpful and pastoral response to men and women who receive a diagnosis that comes with infertility? I think underneath that is, how does one know when what one is saying as an attempt at comfort is making things worse?

Speaker 2:
[19:25] Hmm, that's a good question. And I definitely want to hear your pastoral response to these two questions. I want to address first the piece about the cultural expectations. It is natural for most, not all, but perhaps most to desire children. Yet that desire gets deepened culturally, sometimes even artificially because of our cultural expectations. So, I think this is a broader answer than perhaps the question was looking for, but I think it's really important. We need to build communities and in particular church communities that are not built on the expectation that everyone is going to follow the norm. The norm for being married, for having children. Now, it may be the norm, it may be the majority. So, for example, I just remember in those years of infertility, the only celebrations that the church had were weddings, which are wonderful, and baby showers. No one was celebrating my PhD. No one was celebrating a book being written. And again, not that everyone has to be celebrated equally, but even just recognizing that the church needs to affirm the way life looks for people whose lives don't follow the pattern, and to create classes and community groups and Sunday school classes, and all of the elements of church life around the variety of lives that will be part of that community. And that helps to lessen the part that is the cultural expectation. And that cultural expectation can be a biggest part of the burden. We can't take away our own personal individual desire that goes unfulfilled, but we can create a culture and a community that actually expects things to go differently for everyone, because that really is more the norm.

Speaker 3:
[21:16] I think that when Erin says that it hits women more significantly, I would say it hits men and women, in my experience, equally deeply, but in different ways. And there are different ways of grappling with it from men and women, usually. There are always exceptions. And there also, I think, are different ways to address it. And so in my experience, I think that Maria, when we were going through that at the very beginning, I think she didn't really want to talk about it much because it was scary. The prospect was scary to her at the time. And for a lot of reasons that you mentioned already, just you, nobody knows the way their story is going to go. And so there's all that uncertainty. For me, I think there was a lot of kind of pushing it down in a way that it was both going on, but they had to be addressed a little bit differently. I mean, one of the things I kind of learned during that time was to recognize, as you mentioned before, the role of mother figures and father figures. So one of the things that I've tried to do is to encourage and to identify the ways that people are being fruitful, not just as church members, but specifically in fatherly and motherly ways, even those who don't have children. So it sometimes even comes down to thinking through, if I'm giving an application toward the way people might apply this text to their kids, to also think through ways that that text can be applied in other ways for people who don't have kids. One of the things that always comes up, and I'm curious to know what you think about it, is what should churches do with Mother's Day, Father's Day?

Speaker 2:
[23:14] Yeah, that's a touchy one. I mean, I'll put my cards on the table. I'm not a big secular holiday person. You know, I think it's fine to honor mothers and fathers, but I don't know that the church is really the place to do that. And if they do, and I do see this much more often, more of an incorporation of, as you said, the different ways of mothering and fathering. If it were up to me, I would keep Mother's Day a completely separate holiday and honor the actual mothers and then honor other people in other ways, you know, in different times of the year. But again, this is a cultural expectation. This is a holiday that was invented by commercial interest to sell cards and flowers. And I think the church has been captivated by that kind of commercialism. So that's a bigger question, but simply celebrating it to do so in ways that are sensitive to those who not only aren't mothers, but for example, those who have lost their parents. And that makes it a harder holiday. And I think just being thoughtful about it is the most important step. And then there are different ways that you can apply that thoughtfulness.

Speaker 3:
[24:19] Hey, we're gonna take a quick break. Stick around for the rest of the conversation.

Speaker 1:
[24:29] This paid message is from Portland Seminary, where we believe the best leaders are formed, not just trained. Whether you're ministering to your church, shepherding a non-profit or leading a business, our programs will equip you to think with clarity, live with integrity and serve with the heart of God. At Portland Seminary, we embrace holistic formation that cultivates maturity, resilience and vocational discernment. You'll enter into the formative experiences and courses that will help you grow as a Christ-shaped presence, and you'll discover how to apply church history, the Bible and theology to today's most pressing issues. Join a cohort community that welcomes diversity of thought, culture and tradition while teaching a high view of scripture, preparing men and women for all levels of ministry leadership. Pursue your calling in online programs that fit your life and discover opportunities aligned with your unique design. It all starts at pdxseminary.org.

Speaker 3:
[25:39] One question that's come up several times is the question of adoption. Several people have said, what about the place of adoption when it comes to these fertility issues? How should we talk about it or not? I mean, I know my answer to that, but I wonder what yours would be.

Speaker 2:
[25:57] Yeah, I mean, of course, adoption is a holy event. It is a central metaphor of the Bible and the gospel narrative, and it is a wonderful way that God creates families. And it's not simple, it's not easy. I think that we have seen in recent years some reckoning with some of the perhaps overly romanticized ideas about adoption, and that is good. We've overly romanticized a lot of things. But the main point I want to make about adoption is that, I think looking at that question can help us better understand our own desires. Again, it's natural to want to procreate, to create one's own children. But if that doesn't happen, is your desire solely for that, or is your desire to be a parent, to fulfill that godly role, that important role in another child's life? Because if your desire is to be a parent, then the necessity of having your own biological child doesn't have to be the only way that you do that. And so I think adoption is important and good. And if our culture and our politics and policies emphasized adoption more than some of the reproductive technologies, the support for adoption, awareness of adoption, education about adoption that's more realistic and based in the real sociological and personal needs, then we could see better outcomes for children who need to be adopted and people who want to be parents. I know in my case, because we just sort of assumed for so long that we would get pregnant and then assumed that we would adopt if we didn't, because this is another part of adoption. We didn't know about that either. We didn't know the processes. We knew that you had to have a home study and lots of things that were done. And because we were very poor for very long, my husband and I just thought, well, we would never pass a home study. We aren't prepared to adopt a child. And so by the time we reached a place, again, not really knowing what the process entailed, the Lord had taken my life and his life in other directions that we felt were of him. And so we stopped pursuing that option. But even that was a process that was kind of shrouded in mystery for us. And that doesn't need to be the case.

Speaker 3:
[28:12] Yeah. And I would say, infertility may be an occasion for discerning whether what is called to adopt. But adoption is not a fix for infertility because there has to be an equipping and a calling specifically to adopt. And to be able to deal and navigate with what even in the best of circumstances is coming from a trauma and from a crisis. Something has happened there. And so I've spent most of my time actually, almost talking people out of adopting, especially when you have people who are saying, in the worst case scenario, is when I have people who are saying, we're really kind of growing apart in our marriage, and so I think we need to adopt. No, that is not the way to answer that. But with infertility, there are times when, and this was certainly the case for us, is that it did open up the space of saying, well, has God called us to do this? And are we equipped to do this? Rather than to say, we have the infertility, and the answer to that is adoption. So for a lot of people, you are not equipped to adopt. A lot of people, you're not equipped to foster. You need people in your life and your church that can help you to discern that. But for some people, it's a moment to say, what's God calling me to do?

Speaker 2:
[29:39] The calling aspect of it is crucial, and God doesn't call all of us to everything.

Speaker 3:
[29:44] Yeah, and what would you say to people when someone does say, we're struggling with infertility? Ah, you can always adopt.

Speaker 2:
[29:51] One is not the same as the other. One is not a replacement for the other. I think that's crucial. Each are callings. And again, it goes back to this really important biblical principle that children are a blessing. They aren't a right. They aren't a commodity. We aren't owed them. Whether we're talking about having biological children or adopting children, they are the gift. We don't get to demand them or treat them as commodities or ways to fulfill our marital or personal needs.

Speaker 3:
[30:19] It's been interesting that you mentioned that word blessing because Rebecca wrote in saying, does that language of children are a blessing imply that God chooses to give people infertility? So how do we reconcile that some people get pregnant after being raped? Horrible circumstances. While some people can't get pregnant, maybe because of environmental factors. And she says, people who would never say God gave that person cancer seem willing to attribute infertility to God.

Speaker 2:
[30:53] That is a heavy and deep question and one that we really do need to not be flippant about when we're addressing the surrounding issues such as abortion or infertility. Ultimately, this question of course comes down to what we believe about God's sovereignty and how his permissive and perfect will might differ, which applies in all situations. But I think ultimately, again, no glib answers to someone who is struggling with infertility or someone who is pregnant for any reason, who doesn't want to be. But these things happen most often through biological and physical confluences. Those are the most immediate answers. But what God permits and allows, that's the mystery. That's the thing we struggle with. Whether it's not getting pregnant when we want to or getting pregnant when we don't want to. And then, of course, when we search for solutions in these horrible crisis situations that don't have easy answers. But again, invite us to bear one another's burdens together.

Speaker 3:
[31:53] There's a question that came in from someone who says, what about somebody who's choosing sterilization, not as a lifestyle choice, but because of a mental or developmental disability in their life? Can they go to an infertility support group without facing resentment?

Speaker 2:
[32:13] Oh, wow. I've never been posed with that question before. I mean, again, infertility is one of those words that has so many things packed into it. There can be infertility because of choices we've made. There can be infertility because of our physical conditions. In medical terms, it just means the failure or lack of having children for whatever reason. And I would think that anyone should be able to, and any group should want to welcome anyone who is dealing with the lack of children in their lives when they want those children. And so expanding such support groups for people who are facing that, for those kinds of reasons, would be a marvelous opportunity to, again, bear one another's burdens together.

Speaker 3:
[32:57] Some people have asked kind of a version of this question. I've known women who have become pregnant, but they have people very close in their lives who maybe are going through that beginning stage of grappling with infertility. And they almost feel guilty about celebrating the pregnancy and the child and having the baby showers and all of those kinds of things. How would you help them to be sensitive to those who are struggling, but not to feel guilty about the circumstance they're in?

Speaker 2:
[33:34] Again, these are issues that are often tapping into very deep needs and desires, but we can look at any area of our life and see where, someone who gets a promotion or someone who gets a publication. It's easy, of course, when we can be jealous or covetous or sad that we didn't get the same opportunity and those who got the opportunity can feel self-conscious about it. And so this is, of course, a deeper issue for most people, but we just simply have to navigate these vicissitudes of life with sensitivity and with concern on both ends. We can celebrate the good gifts that our friends have received, our friends and family members have received, acknowledge our own disappointment if we didn't receive them. And then those who have received them need to be careful not to lord it over and to perhaps reach out and see if there is some way in which that person can be celebrated or be part of the celebration that fits their particular needs. Again, it's just about being aware and sensitive to one another and all of our joys and tragedies.

Speaker 3:
[34:37] Dale asks, I think the background here is probably, you're in a church, say, where you really don't have the option of saying we're not going to celebrate secular holidays. So Mother's Day is untouchable, I mean, it's there. And then there are things like baby dedications and so forth. And the question is, what can churches do to make these less difficult or awkward for childless couples?

Speaker 2:
[35:07] Well, share a personal story. So my husband used to get me flowers on Mother's Day. And I would say, you don't need to do that because I'm actually not a mother. You can get me flowers on another day. That's just how I responded. Not every person is going to be that way. And so the same can be true in a church where not, you know, everyone has different sensitivities and needs. But I think just, again, being transparent and open about it and even acknowledging those who aren't mothers, who have lost mothers, just being aware. And the smaller your church is, which is, you know, can be a good thing, the more you're going to know those situations and able to respond to them. And if you don't know the individual ones, I remember, you know, one time when I was going to a very large church and I happened to write something about Mother's Day that year in a newspaper. And one of the pastors reached out and just said, hey, you know, I really appreciate that article that made me look at things a little bit differently. So sometimes we don't have to expect perfection, but just being able to communicate on both ends and express concern and care, even when we don't get it right, that goes such a long way and we need more of that.

Speaker 3:
[36:12] Shannon asked, I think this is probably more as a response to what I said, but the question is, should prospective parents wait for a calling to have biological children as those who cannot have biological children should wait for a calling to have adopted children? That seems like a double standard. Well, I'm not suggesting that people wait for a calling in some mystical sort of way. What I'm saying is adoption is not less than openness to life and parenting and children, but it's more than that because you're also saying, am I going to be equipped to deal with the specific sorts of needs that are going to or could possibly come up with this circumstance? If you have somebody, I've seen people who really did not think through, am I going to be able to do this? Do I have the support system around me? Those sorts of things. So to say a calling is less about kind of waking up after a dream and realizing I'm called to do this and more about, okay, do we have the desire to do this? That's a good first step. Secondly, do we have the willingness to take on whatever comes with this child? And then do we have the support system around us to enable us to do it? I mean, those are ways of kind of discerning that. And the same thing would be true. I know people who are called to adopt that are not called to foster. Because they're two different skill sets, for lack of a better word, and vice versa. And sometimes people know immediately, we're able to do this, we're willing to do this, we've got the means to do this. And then I think there are other times where people are saying, we've got to go through a time of discernment to know what are we going to do? Because this isn't just the same as, okay, we're adopting this three-year-old, so it's exactly the same as if we had birthed this child plus three years. And we're just picking up with no thought anymore about what's happened. There's a lot that goes into that that I think needs to be thought through. It's kind of like with ministry. When people are talking to me, I think God's calling me to ministry. Sometimes you'll talk to them and you'll see it's people saying, I want to be in ministry because I think it will bring me so much closer to the Lord. And then you have to say, oh, that's not the reason to go into ministry. I think it's a similar thing there. So Rachel asks a question about miscarriage. Marie and I went through several miscarriages. And Rachel's asking specifically, what are your thoughts on claiming those children lost to miscarriage, especially those lost in the early weeks? I'm assuming what she means by that is talking about it.

Speaker 2:
[39:10] Yeah. I mean, again, this is a very personal thing, but those are children that were lost and those are the same sorts of hopes and expectations that go along with the children that are born that were lost. Obviously, each situation, you may not want when... I have heard of people bringing it up in different ways and using different language and terms, but it certainly is something that should, in some way, be acknowledged in the ordinary course of building relationships and sharing one another. But Ross, you probably have more to say about that, having experienced it.

Speaker 3:
[39:43] For us, one of the things with the first miscarriage, it was different, but after a while, it was something that we were only talking about to the people who were close around us, rather than to everybody, because my wife felt like she had to sort of go through round after round after round of questions from some people who were kind of not close in to us. And so we kind of just sort of kept it with our friends, not because we didn't think of this child as a child, but because it was a really profound time of grief for both of us and at that point, we just weren't ready to handle all that comes with it. So I think that's going to differ from person to person. I think we've probably got time for one more question. Taylor is writing in saying, we have recently ended our journey of trying to conceive, and we're coming to terms with childlessness and the alternative fruitful life that it can offer. One thing that's been challenging for me is that I don't know people who have walked this road before me, and I'm wanting mentors, and I'm finding that challenging to find mentors who can help me through this. How do you navigate that?

Speaker 2:
[41:04] That's a good question. I mean, I didn't have mentors, and I talk about in my article that time period, where especially in church, you go to church or even in your own families, there is always that mysterious older couple who doesn't have children, and no one ever talks about why. And so you don't even, even if they exist in your life, it's not something that you can bring up. But you know, one of the beauties of the internet age is that it's easier to find written materials, community groups. But I would say if you look around you in your own community or your own church, I bet there are people there who perhaps haven't talked about their experience, but they certainly have walked it and reach out to that person or that couple. And if they aren't there, then there certainly are many more resources out there that are accessible today than there were even a decade or so ago.

Speaker 3:
[41:56] The article is The Birds and the Bees, Babies and Me, Karen Swallow Prior. If you haven't seen it, there's a link in the show notes where you can look at it from the March, April issue of Christianity Today. Thank you all for subscribing and being part of these events and thank you, Karen Swallow Prior, for being with us today.

Speaker 2:
[42:14] Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3:
[42:19] Thanks for listening. If this episode meant something to you, share it with a friend and leave a review of the show wherever you listen. It helps others find the show. Until next time, remember, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not, the darkness will not, the darkness cannot overcome it. This is Russell Moore, Onward.

Speaker 4:
[42:47] The Russell Moore Show is a production of Christianity Today. It's produced by Leslie Thompson, Clarissa Moll is the executive producer, and the associate producer is Mackenzie Hill. This episode was mixed and mastered by Gavin Morris with video production by Sam Seder. Eric Petrick and Mike Cosper are the executive producers of CT Media Podcasts, and Matt Stevens is senior producer. Thank you to John Guerra for allowing us to use his song Citizens as our theme. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1:
[43:34] There's a question that you've carried for a while now.

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[43:36] About faith, about science, about whether they can both be true at the same time.

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[43:41] Wonderology is a podcast that takes that question seriously.

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[43:44] Not to settle it.

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[43:45] But to explore it.

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[43:59] Or at wonderologyshow.com.

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[44:02] Let's get curious.