transcript

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Speaker 2:
[00:48] There's a question that keeps coming up, and I think rightly so. People are asking, why does this keep happening?

Speaker 5:
[00:55] I think that this has needed to be said for a long time.

Speaker 2:
[00:59] There are contributing factors, and when it comes to the theology that was promoted, and then you look at Gothard's life, and you look at the over 30 accounts of accusation brought against him, I mean, it was like rampant abuse. And then when it comes to a subject like sex, they're given, and this is another skewed perspective, it's unclean, it's impure, it's not to be spoken of. It's pushed out, but you know what it actually cultivates, is secrecy within the home, isolation. And so Gothard got it completely wrong, and so generations of children are being raised thinking, if I can rely on the human flesh, and my own ideas, and you know, severity to my body, I'll be pure and holy. And then all of these desires come up, and they don't know how to deal with them. And then they become so severe, they spend their life in jail, because they've never gotten to the root of the issue, which is you need a new heart. Welcome back to another episode of The Jinger and Jeremy Podcast. And today we're taking up a topic, which we've actually kind of circled around the last few weeks. And in light of recent headlines, and everything that we've seen with your brother Joe, which has reopened some wounds of past experiences, past headlines, there's a question that keeps coming up, and I think rightly so. People are asking, why does this keep happening? We don't have every answer for that. We were just as caught off guard with that news, as anyone else, regarding Joe. And yet, ideas have consequences. And for the last several years, you've been very outspoken. I think together we have been about the dangerous theology of Bill Gothard and the Institute of Basic Life Principles, which was deeply impactful to your family. And Bill, a lot of how life was approached. And I think this is another opportunity to say, it's pivotal that we're very careful what we believe, who we listen to. Theology has consequences. And if you have wrong theology, it can have devastating consequences. And I think some people might say, Jinger, sorry, I'm dominating this intro again, but it's a jump in whenever you feel like you want to jump in. But I think some people would say, we don't need to get theological right now. This isn't a theology thing. No, no, no. How you view God directly impacts how you view yourself, which impacts how you view sin, which impacts how you view evil, which impacts how you view sexuality, which impacts how you view loving one another, stealing life together in community, worship. All of life is impacted by your ideas. Ideas have consequences. And Bill Gothard had dangerous teaching about who God is. It's teaching that you're still, from time to time, you find yourself unraveling, still in your own heart. He had dangerous teaching about what a man is, what a woman is for, how to approach life and godliness, and how to pursue holiness. What is salvation? Dangerous ideas, and they have consequences. It was Jesus who says wisdom is justified by her deeds. So in Matthew 11, I think it's Matthew 11, actually I can check it here. But the religious leaders are calling Jesus a drunkard and a glutton. He doesn't say, yeah, the son of man came eating and drinking, they say look at him, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. Jesus doesn't go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you know, I don't like to eat or I don't drink wine or he goes, wisdom is justified by her deeds. What I am will be evident in what I do and the fruit that's produced in my life. And so I guess I'm saying all this to say it's good and right that people look at the claims of a teacher as I speak for God, like you often say, but didn't really and go, you claim to speak for God, you claim that this is Christianity, which I would argue is not Christianity at all.

Speaker 5:
[05:48] There are some Christians in it.

Speaker 2:
[05:50] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[05:50] There are a lot of Christians probably in it.

Speaker 2:
[05:52] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[05:53] But it does not make that Christianity.

Speaker 2:
[05:56] And here's the interesting thing. And I think some of our viewers might be surprised to hear this. We're going to go to a passage, there's multiple, but specifically one, which very explicitly says that's not Christianity. It has nothing to do with Christ. Christianity is consumed with Christ. So even though a teacher like Bill Gothard might say, and it's adherence, this is Christianity. No, son. Just because you say that doesn't make it true. And when you see the fruit of it produces anything but what Jesus promises it will produce. Jesus promises life. Jesus promises peace, gentleness, self-control. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. And against such things, there is no law. When you see, as a pattern in a movement, the opposite, wisdom is justified by her deeds, or it's proven to not be wisdom.

Speaker 5:
[07:00] Exactly. Yeah. And I think for anybody who's listening, who has never heard of Bill Gothard, doesn't know what we're talking about at all. Bill Gothard had what we'd say now like a movement, I guess, in the 60s and 70s, where he came around saying that if you follow his rules, these basic principles, seven basic life principles, that your life is gonna be a success. And if you don't, then it's gonna be one disaster after another. And a lot of families were well-meaning when they entered that setting. They thought, okay, I'm gonna protect my family by putting up these very concrete rules for my kids to keep them safe, to keep them in, to have friends that are gonna be identical to us, that will shield our kids from the outside world, almost, and let them be a light to the nations.

Speaker 2:
[07:53] And here's where those ideas are so devastating, is a lecture in front of an audience isn't just a lecture in front of an audience. It's why Jesus or James, the half-brother Jesus, says, not many of you ought to become teachers, because you'll be held to a stricter judgment. People looked at Bill Gothard's teachings and bet their lives on it. And they said, if we follow this man who said at points, I've got the key to the Christian life. And then it wasn't Christ, the key. It was his rules, which we'll see around Biblical. But people banked their souls on it. And they banked the souls of their children on it. So they said, we're going to raise our kids in accordance with these teachings. And then decades later, it produced bad fruit. And decades later, it was exposed as false and lies. And lives are crumbling. Now I'll say this, you know, in reference to this direct topic, we're going to your brother, everyone is responsible for their actions. So none of this is an excuse to say, oh, but the theology was poor. Therefore, someone's not responsible for their actions. No, we fully, as the Bible teaches, the sword of justice is given to the government to punish evildoers, that's Romans 13. So if you ever hear a Christian like Bill Gothard, actually, who would try to go easy on perpetrators of horrible abuse.

Speaker 5:
[09:16] You said a Christian like Bill Gothard, but you're not saying.

Speaker 2:
[09:19] Oh, he claims to be a Christian, right? So he's saying, I'm a Christian. And then he says, oh, but we shouldn't punish abusers. I could go to anywhere in the Bible and I'll show you the opposite. Judgment is given to the government to punish evildoers. And so in talking about the theology, we're not creating an excuse and say, oh, however, I will say this, young men specifically, but everybody, but young men specifically, they don't just come out of a vacuum behaving a certain way. There are contributing factors. And when it comes to the theology that was promoted, and then you look at Gothard's life and you look at the over 30 accounts of accusation brought against him and his brother and others in that teaching where, I mean, it was like rampant abuse in this form of abuse. You start to go, okay, something that they're believing, teaching living by is producing this and it's not good.

Speaker 5:
[10:24] We want to take a break from this episode to tell you about Cure.

Speaker 2:
[10:27] And I'm going to let you take the lead on this one because you are, I appreciate Cure, I like Cure, I use it, but you're obsessed.

Speaker 5:
[10:34] Oh yes, I drink Cure every single day. So when I wake up in the morning for my workout, I will be up at 520, I'm up. And when I get up, I do not want to eat anything, but I want to make sure I get my electrolytes in, especially after nursing a baby. I'm usually very dehydrated when I wake up. And so Cure has been helping me feel absolutely amazing. So I will get a packet, pour it in to my bottle, and I go out the door for my workout. And honestly, is one of those things that makes me feel so good. And I know the ingredients are actually going to benefit me because a lot of the electrolyte packets are not healthy. This is for people who read the ingredients and want something that's clean.

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Speaker 5:
[13:02] Now back to the episode.

Speaker 2:
[13:04] And so, like we kind of said at the start, we're not claiming to have every answer of everything. And yet we can examine the teachings and how it is so negatively affects people. And I really think it begins here, having a wrong understanding of sin, thinking that sin is something out there that we need to shield ourselves from, but it's the big bad world that if we can isolate ourselves enough, we'll be safe. And here's the thing is, some people could think of that as a philosophy, but they would struggle to see it born out because we live amongst each other in the big bad world, right? Gothard and his adherents literally believed, like, oh no, we need to isolate ourselves physically. Like we need to all separate, cut off internet, no television, no secular music. We're not going to dress like the world. We're not going to eat like the world. We're not going to drink like the world. We're not going to spend time with the world. We are going to separate ourselves. Kind of like the Amish that we talked about with my dad.

Speaker 5:
[14:19] Yeah, there were so many similarities. And that's where he thought if you can just get your kids in this safe place, teach them these rules and not just teach them the rules, but you have to have a way to keep them keeping the rules. And the tactic that was used was fear and fear of God, but it wasn't a proper fear of God because there's an awe and reverence of God realizing how powerful he is, but it was a different fear. It was one that was looking for ways that God was going to smite you or take you out if you misstepped, even for like disobeying one of Bill Gothard's rules that he made and not knowing that you disobeyed a rule.

Speaker 2:
[15:07] Yeah, if you put yourself under a worldly influence, God's going to punish you by just unleashing hell on you.

Speaker 5:
[15:13] Yeah, you could be in a car accident. It's very superstitious. Something could happen. So he would tell stories of a business deal that someone did. And he would tell some of these stories. His other friend would also tell stories.

Speaker 2:
[15:30] Jim Sammons? He was good at those stories. Those ones, I remember listening to the whole Financial Freedom Seminar. It's 20 lectures over 20 hours. And they get you with these stories and you're so moved by it. I'll never forget the one where a guy bought a strip mall and it was like a really good investment and he didn't go into debt for it. And he was leasing it out to these businesses and all of a sudden, the businesses started to tank and he was on the verge of bankruptcy and he's trying to figure out what, you know what it was? One of the businesses had a liquor license and he didn't know he was violating the principle. And so God was punishing him for that. So he got rid of that client and then everything went better. And you go, wow, this anecdote of near disaster, that is not how God works, right? And that's a made up rule, by the way, from Gothard or Jim Simmons. But they have this view of sin that like, you have to isolate yourself from what's big and bad out there and protect yourself under this umbrella of authority in the home. And then there everything will be safe. So we won't be invaded by the world. We don't need internet, we don't need TV. We don't need, you know, a purple haired barista who's gonna, you know, bring worldliness into my life and everything's pushed out. And in there, there's safety. But you know what it actually cultivates is secrecy within the home, isolation. But you combine that with this and this is the major theological miss there. They miss the reality that sinfulness or human rebellion against beauty and goodness is a heart issue, not an out there issue. And so it's like the Amish where you go, wow, the Amish must be must be really holy because they are so cut off from any bad influences. And then you get an insider perspective like my dad who's served for two decades amongst the Amish and you go, oh, there's dark, dark, dark deviance amongst the Amish. Where did it come from? Did someone have a cell phone? Did someone have Disney? Did someone have Disney Plus? Because somehow it got in there. That was always there. It's called the heart, which is why Christianity is a heart religion. It's dealing with the transformation of the heart. But this view actually has a name. It's called asceticism. So Bill Gothard was an ascetic, and he approached holiness and salvation through an ascetic lens, which is this belief that we can attain holiness and purity by setting up external boundaries, removing bad influences from our lives. Does that make sense? So it's literally, let's all live together, cut off outside influence, and together we'll be safe. And it never works.

Speaker 5:
[18:30] Yeah, it doesn't, because when you are relying on the, you're relying on yourself really, and you're propping yourself up with these many rules, well, it's just a matter of time before that's all going to come crumbling down. And that's where the difference between that and Christianity is that when you are walking with God, the Spirit of God is working within you and causing you to walk in his ways. It's different than this, like you're trying, and yes, Christians do fall and fail. It doesn't mean that they're sinless. Christians, we are not sinless. We are sinful people, but there's a difference because it's not us just fighting, well, we are fighting, but we're like not striving for that in our own strength, but it's through the work of Christ in our hearts, and the love of Christ constrained us.

Speaker 2:
[19:25] 100%. That's it. And so here's the thing that, and okay, let me just apologize to our listeners. I'm talking a little bit, a lot of bit today, and I really, I don't wanna talk, talk, talk like crazy. But as-

Speaker 5:
[19:42] I like it when you talk.

Speaker 2:
[19:43] Well, I like it when you talk, whether we have a, we're at an impasse. But there, I do have a sense, like, this has kind of been, like, welling up inside of me. And the text that has really been, like, exploding has been the Book of Colossians, specifically Colossians chapter two, because what hurts me or any Christian really is to see headlines and for people to go, see, that's what Christianity produces. And to know, no, it's, Christianity is the opposite of that. So a little Bible chat here, but Colossians is this incredible New Testament book written by the Apostle Paul. And he begins this book writing to these Christians in Colossae who had all of these heresies coming amongst them. They had Bill Gothard walking amongst them who talked really smooth. He talks about that. And they had really plausible explanations for how to do the Christian life. And he actually warns them. He says in chapter 2 verse 4, I don't want anyone to delude you with plausible arguments. He says in Christ are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden. And so he starts the book by saying Jesus is supreme. He's the son of God. He is God in the flesh. He's the creator of the universe. The opening chapter of Colossians is just like a tour de force of who Jesus is. But he says all this because he says some people are coming amongst you. And they're talking and it seems to make sense. But everything they say, I mean, listen to what Paul says. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty to see, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. If you want a Bible verse that calls out Bill Gothard, that's it.

Speaker 5:
[21:45] We want to take a break from this episode to tell you about trust and will.

Speaker 2:
[21:49] As your family grows, as you start thinking about your kids and their future, generational planning is incredibly important. But also securing if something were to happen to myself and Jinger, we want to make sure that our children are cared for and protected. That's why we have a trust. And that's why we've worked with Trust and Will who've made it incredibly easy to secure a trust and to secure the future for your family.

Speaker 5:
[22:15] Yeah, Trust and Will keeps families connected with planning out your future. And that was one of the top priorities for us. I think after our oldest was like two, we said we have to take time to do this. And it's something that feels hard to do sometimes because you don't want to think that way. But also it's the most loving thing you can do for your kids and your family.

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Speaker 5:
[23:13] We want to take a break from this episode to tell you about Momentum.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 5:
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Speaker 5:
[24:49] Now back to the episode.

Speaker 2:
[24:51] Remember the first time we talked about Bill and I said, yeah, he's kind of a philosopher, but he's not a Bible teacher. And you probably were like...

Speaker 5:
[24:59] I actually was thinking, wait, you just said that. That's pretty crazy because I always looked at him as a Bible teacher. And he was somebody that I thought, wow, like I probably would have thought he was a prophet and from God to tell us these teachings. And I wasn't a charismatic, somebody who just believed everybody was a prophet who told me a word from God. But I would have looked at him more like that because he has all the answers to life's problems. And it seemed so real to me that his principles were gonna work. And I would see people with, like young people who are rebellious and families. And I would be like, it's such a pity because I know what's wrong with them. And I could diagnose all these problems. I had all of it memorized. Like I knew the answer for every problem. And if it was marriage issues, if it was financial issues, I knew that, oh, they probably have debt or maybe they didn't honor God in this way or that way. And I could look at people's lives and really judging them based on what I thought I knew about their life because of how their life was breaking down. They probably didn't follow all the principles correctly.

Speaker 2:
[26:13] And his principles were plausible. Plausible means like, yeah, they make sense. So you hear those and you go-

Speaker 5:
[26:20] Used to make sense.

Speaker 2:
[26:22] But you could see like, the logical clearance like, okay, if A is true and B and C, but what Paul's warning of is going, yeah, there can be smooth talking cats who are up in a pulpit in a stadium filled with 10,000 people. But just because it's plausible, he says, it's philosophical, but it's empty and it's deceitful and it's according to human tradition, not according to Christ. I realized that, as I was listening to all those Bill Gothard teachings, here's this proposed teacher. He's got hundreds of hours of teaching. And I listened to 60 plus of those hours and I'm going, where's Jesus? Jesus isn't in any of this. And when he says something like, I've got the key to unlock the Christian life, and then he goes on to say anything but Jesus, you go, you might have a key to something, but it ain't the Christian life, because the Christian life is about Christ. And that's Paul in Colossians, he's obsessed with Jesus. And he goes, it's got to be according to Christ. And so this is where it gets really interesting. Paul goes on to say, he's talking about Jesus, but he actually goes on to address the issues of sin, even sexual deviance and disobedience. Like, he names it, he's going to, in Chapter 3, talk about sexual morality, impurity, passion, evil desire, covetousness, idolatry. He says, on account of these things, the wrath of God is coming. Think of evil desire and everything that entails. Paul's being graphic, well, he's being pointed, but not graphic. He's saying, oh yeah, we're going to deal with that. Now, how do you battle evil desire? Well, at the end of Chapter 2, listen to this, he says, if with Christ you die to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations? Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch, referring to things that all parishes are used according to human precepts and teachings. That's Gothard.

Speaker 5:
[28:39] Exactly. Yeah, he would, he would often have so many rules even around courtship. So there were courtships instead of traditional dating. And he even had times where he would tell people, okay, you, like he, he pushed a single service commitment, which is where you are committing before God to stay single, to not date, to not court anybody for a certain number of years. So some people would be like two years, five years, 10 years, long commitments people would make, which is just completely wrong. And they would make these commitments and then have to hold to it. And then he would be like, okay, now when you're courting, you have to follow all these rules for purity. And in the Christian life, like we are all about purity because God's word speaks to that. But there's a difference in the rules based thinking, this is what's going to keep you safe. This is what's going to keep you from falling into sin is by having these external rules. So have a chaperone at all times. And don't hold hands until you're engaged. Don't kiss until you're married, whatever it was. Now, some of those may not have been his exact rules. They were from other people that adapted them.

Speaker 2:
[29:55] But the method, methodology, methodology, methodology, methodology.

Speaker 5:
[30:03] That's a long word. Price, you got that one out.

Speaker 2:
[30:06] Combine like three words. The method, methodology, methodology, methodology. There it is.

Speaker 5:
[30:14] It's the method.

Speaker 2:
[30:15] Yeah, the method. I'll stick with method. We'll say that.

Speaker 5:
[30:18] Yeah. No, I can get them.

Speaker 2:
[30:20] The method was one of, like the aesthetic, relying on rules to keep me pure. Don't taste, don't handle, don't touch. Now listen to what Paul says. When I say he hits it like spot on, he hits it spot on. These have indeed an appearance of wisdom. This is Colossians 2.23. An appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion, which is what Gothard is, and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. So he says, it appears really wise to go, if we disconnect from the Internet, have no technology, live alone and aren't impacted by the world, we will be holy. Hey, pretty good case for that. You know what? I think that could be the way. It looks good, don't taste, don't handle, don't touch. And Paul says, can I just give you a tip, has no power in stopping the indulgence, the craving of the flesh. Again, heart issue. Evil passion comes from here. Jesus says, it's not what goes into a man that defiles him, it's what comes out of the man, for out of the mouth speaks the intentions of the heart. Which is why Christianity, you quoted Ezekiel 36 earlier, I will give you a new heart, I will put right desires in you, I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, to be careful to obey all my commands. The promise of the Christian faith isn't, we're going to set up all these barriers and rules that are going to suppress desire and conform you to Jesus-ness. No, I'm going to give you a new heart, obedience from the heart, read Romans 6, Romans 8, obedience from the heart where I want to serve God. And so, if you want to understand what false ascetic religion is, whether it's an IBLP cult or the Amish or any other form of asceticism that says, if I can only get rid of every bad influence around me, I'll be holy, Paul says, yeah, it appears wise has no power. So they say, well, what does have power? Chapter three, verse one, if then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God, set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth, for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. He's talking about the old you is dead, the new you is raised with Christ. When Christ who is your life appears, you also will appear with him in glory. Put to death, therefore, what is earthly in you? Sexual morality, impurity, passion, evil desire. Oh, so we are called to put evil passions to death. Yes, how? Not by cutting off internet access, but by sending your mind on Christ. And so here's where it comes back to the practical. You have young people who are growing up in a culture, in a society, in a theology that is telling them those evil passions out there. You suppress them, you ignore them, you have nothing to do with them, and by that you'll attain purity. And then when it comes to a subject like sex, they're given, and this is another skewed perspective, it's unclean, it's impure, it's not to be spoken of. It's pushed out. And then, when you look at the subject of modesty, this is a whole other subject. The ascetic approach to sexual morality with modesty, you know what it says? The woman and her body is the source of lust. And so, if you can't get rid of the women, you cover them up. And if they're not covered up, it's their fault that the man falls into sin. And I'll prove this to you from Gothard's own teaching. This is his teaching on this available on the internet. It's called Counseling Regarding Sexual Abuse. And it's talking to how do you counsel a young woman who's been abused. And the whole thing is skewed. He shows the parts of our being, body, emotions, will, mind, spirit. And he says, which is the most important? And he's trying to get the person to deduce, well, my spirit is most important. My body really doesn't matter that much. So if my body is damaged in that way, it's the least significant part of me. So it's downplaying the crime, right? Which is why you could see a response to it being like, ah, it's not a major deal. Because that's the least important part about you. Your body is going to go into the ground. It's your spirit that's valuable. But then listen to this. Why did God let it happen? A result of defrauding by immodest stress, indecent exposure, being out from protection of your parents, being with evil friends.

Speaker 5:
[35:47] That is just, that is so insane and it's on the victim. Because it puts all that on the victim because you caused that person to do that crime.

Speaker 2:
[35:58] Because the source of their evil passion.

Speaker 5:
[36:01] I remembered seeing that.

Speaker 2:
[36:02] The source of their evil passion is your body and you didn't cover it up. It's on you. So it makes young men who are deviant in their behavior, victims of the woman's body. When you go, it's exactly the reverse, right? But you would get to that when you go, if sin's not in here, it must be caused by an external factor. The woman's body is the cause. Jesus goes, nope, it's the heart. Your heart is the cause. We have sinful hearts. And so we've got to deal with the heart. And the only way to deal with that is by Christ giving you a new one. So it's this Christ obsession that ought to be cultivated, this looking to Christ as our Savior and our Sanctifier, not looking around for excuses and then trying to cut those off. And the sad reality is you can't get rid of women in your life. And so it becomes blame against them. And then it actually results in, and you and I have talked about this a lot, there's a shame that comes with the woman who's almost ashamed that you have a body.

Speaker 5:
[37:11] Yeah, ashamed of like, it's crazy. I think that was one of my big insecurities too. I struggled with that. I think, I just wish I didn't have any shape at all, any form or shape because I was like, that's just, then I could feel more comfortable, just not having to worry about even curves that are natural for every woman to have.

Speaker 2:
[37:39] I remember telling you like, Jinger, you have a body.

Speaker 5:
[37:42] You're like, it's fine.

Speaker 2:
[37:44] God made you with a body. It's beautiful. You don't have to put a box around it.

Speaker 5:
[37:48] Yes, and I remember being so insecure about that because I felt like I just basically wanted to wear a potato sack because I thought that's how I'm going to honor God.

Speaker 2:
[38:03] And here's where, again, ideas have consequences. Anthropology is the term for the study of man, right? Or the study of person. You know what modesty, the purity culture of modesty actually does? It deduces a woman to a singular purpose as a sexual object. That's what you're for. And so you've got to cover yourself up. And you go, that's not what a woman is for. It's not even what her body is for. She's an image bearer made in the image of God. To reflect him in all of his beauty and his attributes of creativity and the design of the imago de stamped upon the woman, she is not deduced to an object. But that sort of teaching sees the woman as a threat. And so it suppresses the woman. And it also suppresses the young man's processing of desire, because hormones are real. They're not talked about. They're not talked to about it. They're told that's dirty and wrong. And it's just suppressed. And here's the danger. And this is where the adults in the room fail the children when they don't adequately approach that subject. Because we are sexual beings, and we need to be, we need to have an understanding of what's pure and holy and right about how God made us and what's to be avoided. Because there's, God's the one who made us that way. But when that's suppressed, I'll tell you what happens. Those young men don't stop asking questions. They just go different places for answers. And where do they go when they're isolated and alone? And so you've got major implications of this theology start bearing down very practically in dangerous ways. And so you start asking, why is this a pattern? Well, because there's a belief system, right? Now that does not mean every young person reacted in a deviant way at all, even by majority. But it does give insight into how that could create a pattern because theology matters. And let me just say this, and this is sort of like from a biblical perspective. So I'm a preacher, right? Like I'm a Bible, a student of the Bible. And I, it's my first filter when I'm viewing things. So I don't mean to be so preachy, you know, I think this is maybe not an average podcast for us. But there's like the nail in the coffin of Gothard's theology and approach to this is the church in Corinth. Corinth was a Grecian city, which was known for its debauchery. It was like Vegas on steroids, like Sin City, you know? To the point where people would refer to, if you were like really debaucherous, they'd go, you're a Corinthian. And the reason for that is there was cult prostitution. So immorality was baked into the religion. It's just how they did everything. So you're coming home for dinner to your family and you stop by the temple to worship and engage in immorality. Your wife doesn't bat an eyelid. It's like, yeah, that's our religion. The Corinthians were a pagan society which was known for rampant immorality. And then Corinthians hear the gospel. And churches form. And they have issues. Paul has to actually work through some serious issues with them in the churches. They're suing one another. They're getting drunk at the Lord's Supper. There's all sorts of immorality. And yet one thing Paul never says to the Corinthians, which would have, according to Gothard or the ascetic, solved everything. He never says, leave Corinth. He doesn't, I mean, it would have been a very simple solution. Hey Corinthians, you're struggling with immorality and drunkenness. Get out of the most debauchery city in the ancient Near Eastern world. What are you crazy? Why would you still be there? Instead, over and over and over and over, he appeals to the reality that they're united to Jesus. So when he's dealing with the cult temple immorality, he doesn't say, well, you live around the corner from the temple. That's not the problem. The problem is not the external influence. He says, why would you join Jesus Christ to your immorality? Don't you know you're one with Jesus? His appeal to them is Paul's same appeal to the Colossians in Colossians 3. You're joined to Christ because Christ has the power to transform from within. That's why Jesus said of his disciples as he's praying to his father before his crucifixion, he says, Father, I do not ask that you take them out of the world. Keep them in the world. They're my hands and feet. They're the light of the world. Keep them from the evil one. But light shines in the darkness. Light doesn't gather with all of the light and avoid the darkness. And so Gothard got it completely wrong. And so generations of children are being raised thinking, if I can rely on the human flesh and my own ideas and ascetic, you know, severity to my body, I'll be pure and holy. And then all of these desires come up and they don't know how to deal with them. And then they become so severe, they spend their life in jail. Because they've never gotten to the root of the issue, which is you need a new heart. You need to be transformed by the person of Christ who offers you through the gospel, the reality that you're a sinner, you cannot save yourself. But Jesus Christ in his life, death and resurrection did what you couldn't. He bore the penalty for sin on your behalf. And by you putting your faith in him, you're united to Jesus. You are made new. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old is gone, the new has come. You want to battle sin in your life? You want to battle addiction? You want to battle arrogance and pride and evil passion? You need a new heart. That's Jesus' message. So for a guy to stand up and say he's a Christian and have any other message than that, it's devastatingly sad that people would take him at his word and say he's a Christian. He's not a Christian. Bill Gothard is not a Christian. He's not a Christian teacher. He did not teach Christianity. And the result is devastating. Are there Christians amongst? Yes, he used the Bible enough that genuine Christians could go, oh, there's something there for me. But that is not Christianity.

Speaker 5:
[45:02] That was good, babe.

Speaker 2:
[45:04] I'm like.

Speaker 5:
[45:04] You have a lot to say and it's very good and helpful. I think that this has needed to be said for a long time. And I'm glad that you have the clarity to say it right now.

Speaker 2:
[45:16] Well, it's been something that you've been bold and courageous in saying over the years as well. And at the end of the day, this is motivated by love, not just for our immediate circumstance with family or whatever. This is the hope of the world. This is the hope that Jesus came to offer. That's why he entered the dirt that he created and walked amongst us and fed the hungry and healed the sick and raised the dead and preached an offensive message that you can't save yourself. And although leaders come in and take and distort his message for their own propping up and their own gain and their own exploitation of people, doesn't invalidate Christ himself. And that's where I would just hope, we're doing this little 40 minute podcast or whatever, this is an ocean of truth. The Bible speaks to your situation, now I'm talking to the listener. Like where you are is speaks, read Romans 1. If you want to read about America in 2026, read Romans 1. Read the letters to the Corinthians. Read the Book of Colossians. You want to understand our world? Read the Gospels and you'll go, oh yeah, this is us. It speaks to it. And so this isn't a victim of, the Bible is not a victim to what some philosophical deceivers want to make it. You have it in your hands. You can go to the source and see what it says and you'll actually discover it calls these guys out. Read 2 Peter. There are books dedicated to exposing false teachers. Read the letter that Jude wrote to the church. It's all there. And so that's my hope and passion is that this would like wet people's appetite to go, okay, who is Jesus really? And what did he really say? Because if you don't like the fruit that you're seeing amongst those who claim to be Christians, go to Christ himself and you'll see the fruit, you'll see the truth.

Speaker 5:
[47:20] Yeah, that was so good.

Speaker 2:
[47:23] Well, Jinger, sorry that I dominated that one and sorry to the listener. I get sick of my own voice. I know you're here for Jinger's voice. So am I. But grateful for you guys tuning in and thanks for your prayers and support. Yeah, we want Christ to be glorified and we want his name magnified and his hope proclaimed to the ends of the earth, really. Okay. Well, there you have it. Thanks for hanging out, guys. We'll see you again, hopefully next week.

Speaker 4:
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