transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Today, on The Exam Room.

Speaker 2:
[00:05] Until you can experience it personally, you really don't understand because there's a vast difference when something is fully matured and ripe on a tree, and you pick it then versus it being picked green, and in transit gets to a state where it's then presentable to be sold in the supermarket. So you get higher nutritional value, you get 10 times better flavor profiles, it smells better, it tastes better. I mean, it's night and day.

Speaker 1:
[00:43] Welcome to The Exam Room Podcast, brought to you by The Physicians Committee. Hi, I'm Chuck Carroll, raising health IQs coast to coast and around the world. Hi to The Exam Room, who's listening in Burlington, Vermont, Boise, Idaho and Nairobi, Kenya. Wherever you are, we appreciate you helping to make the world a healthier place. This is episode 30 of season nine, number 729 overall. And today is all about bringing the flavor. And to do this, we have a first-time guest here on The Exam Room. He is a celebrity chef, the champion of Chopped on the Food Network, and the creative force behind some of the most flavor packed plant-based dishes you will ever taste. Chef Ed Harris is here with us today. And this is not really a nutrition science deep dive, but what this is, is a cannonball of a plunge into your kitchen. We are going to be taking you into the kitchen, into the culture, and into the mind of a chef who is redefining what plant-based food can actually taste like. We are going to be talking about building flavor in a big way today, how to make vegetables, the stars of the show, and why a simple ingredient like parsley might just change your entire cooking game. Parsley, I'm not even joking. Plus, he's going to tell us how he went from being a classically trained chef working a lot with meat to creating next level plant-based dishes that even die hard meat lovers simply cannot resist. So trust me, my friend, you are going to be walking away hungry after this episode. You're going to get inspired to head into the kitchen and whip up a masterpiece. So let's get that inspiration going right now with Chef Ed Harris right here on The Exam Room. With that, we welcome a man who's got a head of hair that I wish I could rock. Chef Ed Harris, thanks for being here, my friend.

Speaker 2:
[02:44] Thank you so much, Chuck. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. It's great to be here.

Speaker 1:
[02:48] Great to have you. I mean, seriously, look at your head of hair and then look at this mop top that I've got going on under this hat.

Speaker 2:
[02:53] That looks nice and slick.

Speaker 1:
[02:57] What do you mean nice and slick? This looks like I just woke up from sleep, man. Come on now. I'm a hot mess. You are well put together. Anyway, man, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. I should say, and I was just telling you right before we started recording, you and I actually have a connection. You were interviewed many years ago by my wife on the ABC affiliate here in the Washington DC a long time ago. But not to put you on the spot, I bet you don't quite remember that interview.

Speaker 2:
[03:26] I remember some, but not all. Yeah, so I probably, if you were to ask me what we spoke about, I would, it would be, there would be a long pause.

Speaker 1:
[03:39] I got you, man. So let's, let's introduce you to the Exam Room audience. You have a really unique story before you got to any big awards or accolades winning these competitions. Your journey started way back in, I want to say St. Lucia and Guyana. So how did your cultural roots kind of shape the way that you look at food today?

Speaker 2:
[04:01] You know, for me, I think growing up in the Caribbean, especially in South America, you are always, you always have access to fresh food. You always have access to things that are harvested yesterday, you know, a couple of days ago. Never anything sitting on the shelves for weeks, months, whatever the case may be. So being able to grow your own food, pick them yourself, cook them, and just get that connection to nature, I think was something that really facilitated my growth. And then just being here and having that love and understanding of vegetables, it's allowed me to really see the true essence of how it is to create vegetables in a way that's very unique. And for that, I took it upon myself to really go in on that because a lot of people don't understand how to cook vegetables. So for me, I took it personally to show people and showcase just how delicious vegetables can be. And I think that's what drives my passion.

Speaker 1:
[05:02] Let me ask you this. You talk about fresh grown vegetables. You harvest them. I mean, you've like straight up farm to table.

Speaker 2:
[05:09] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[05:09] How big of a flavor difference is there between a freshly grown vegetable versus what most of us are getting in the store? I would imagine you have a really refined palette as a chef.

Speaker 2:
[05:20] Yes. Yes. I appreciate that. And I do. And I think until you can experience it personally, you really don't understand because there's a fast difference when something is fully matured and ripe on a tree, and you pick it then versus it being picked green and in transit gets to a state where it's then presentable to be sold in the supermarket. So you get higher nutritional value, you get 10 times better flavor profiles, it smells better, it tastes better. I mean, it's night and day.

Speaker 1:
[05:55] Do you have any tips for the home chef who might be looking for that powerful fresh flavor where maybe it's not as easy to get your hands on something that's freshly grown?

Speaker 2:
[06:07] So for me, like every weekend, we're at the farmer's market. So I would say that's like the first place to go because nine out of 10 times, you're gonna get something that was just picked up a couple of days ago, so it's super fresh, it's ready. And if you can get to a farmer's market, then there are CSAs throughout America that you can sign up for and they can deliver or you can go pick up from them. And they're in constant communication with local farmers, so they're able to provide that same value that you can't find in an actual farmer's market. So those would be the two best case scenarios. And then, of course, there's a step up from regular supermarkets, which would be like a farmer's market supermarket that has a little bit more access to fresher vegetables or, you know, vegetables that are a little bit more exotic.

Speaker 1:
[06:56] Farmer's market supermarket. That sounds like exotic on its own. Like that's a nice little blend of all the best right there, man.

Speaker 2:
[07:03] Yes, definitely.

Speaker 1:
[07:05] Let me ask you about your training. You trained in some elite kitchens in your day, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of that in New York.

Speaker 2:
[07:13] Yes, correct.

Speaker 1:
[07:16] And would I be correct in assuming that your training was not necessarily plant-based?

Speaker 2:
[07:21] No, it was not. So culinary school for me was the first art institute that was open in New York City. So I was classically trained as a chef. So I did the whole breaking down the whole fabrication of meats, whole suckling pigs, all of that stuff. So that's my background in the early mid 90s, I would say. But, you know, I became plan-based, I would say, almost 10 years ago now. And the crazy thing is the knowledge that I got from cooking meat and seafood and poultry, I was able to use that knowledge to really hone in my skills on being plan-based and just how I can make food. So I'm not missing those things, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:
[08:07] Boom. Okay. I love this because with very, very, very few exceptions, people are not born eating a plant-based diet. It's something that they gravitate to for a multitude of reasons as they get older. But I love the fact that you're talking about carrying over some of the principles of cooking from your non-plant-based days. How can one take what you learn from the grill, grilling up steaks and fish and chicken and all of those things, and apply it to a plant-based diet?

Speaker 2:
[08:38] Really simple. For me, I tell people, especially when I do like my classes and my courses, you have, let's say it's meat, for instance, the same way you would season a piece of steak, you can do that to a sliced steak cauliflower, you can do that to a piece of tofu. So it's really understanding the why behind what you're doing, and then the application to do it. So you can char vegetables just like you could char a piece of steak or a piece of meat. You can roast anything that you would if it's poultry. So it's the same flavor profiles even using seasonings. Like, you know, sometimes, and I know, I'm sure you, you've probably experienced this, you go to certain restaurants and they're doing tofu, and it's just really bland, right? And I feel like people think that they can't treat a piece of tofu like you could a piece of chicken or a piece of steak, but you can. So you can heavily season it the same way, you can do a dry rub on it, you can grill it, you can bake it, roast it, you can deep fry. So you can basically treat a lot of meat substitutes the same way. It just takes a little stepping out of what you've been taught, what the norm is for you and seeing what's possible.

Speaker 1:
[09:52] Let me ask you, the dry rub with the tofu. Now, this is interesting to me. Does it hold on to the flavor, perhaps even a little bit better than meat would because tofu is so saturated with water?

Speaker 2:
[10:04] Yeah. So, okay, so there's a trick, right? Because there's levels to tofu, obviously, because you're not going to do that with silken tofu. You're not going to do that with soft tofu, right? So you're playing around with extra firm, firm medium tofu to be able to put that dry rub. But the trick is to not take the tofu immediately out of the water and then presume to put the dry rub on it. Like it needs to kind of be, I would say either paper towel or press it to get rid of that excess water out of it. And then when it's in a state where it's more of a sponge, then you create this dry rub and you're introducing maybe a salt or some kind of acid that you can then rub into the tofu. So that's how you can penetrate that flavor. But if you want it to really get your tofu flavorful, you're not gonna take a three inch block of tofu and try to do a rub on it. The middle is not gonna get any flavor, right? So you wanna make the size of the tofu manageable enough that the marination will penetrate. And then because it's tofu, you can marinate it for 24 hours and then let that flavor penetrate and then cook it. And you will end up with something that's just delicious.

Speaker 1:
[11:16] Now, do you have a proper tofu strainer in your kitchen or a Chef Harris' bomb ass kitchen filled with just nothing more than what we may have on hand here, which is encyclopedia books that never get used anymore than a paper towel?

Speaker 2:
[11:33] Yeah, no, I mean, I do the paper towel when I'm in a rush. So there's nothing wrong with the paper towel, but you can get tofu presses as well that you can just kind of have in house and use it when you remember the day before, a couple hours before. But ultimately, you can, it really boils down to what your end product tofu is gonna look like when you cook it. So if you're doing chunks, then you can easily just kind of squeeze it within the paper towel. And if it breaks, totally fine, no big deal. If you're trying to do steaks, then I would wrap it in paper towel for a couple hours and just kind of let it sit out. And the paper towel will pull out a lot of that moisture on its own without you even having to press it.

Speaker 1:
[12:12] Let me switch back to you and getting to know you a little bit better. What made you switch from teriyaki chicken to teriyaki tofu? Why go plant-based a decade ago?

Speaker 2:
[12:22] So this was when What the Health came out, right? And yeah, it's such a crazy documentary. So my wife, my three kids, we were all sitting down, we watched it. And prior to that, I always felt that you just shouldn't eat a lot of meat, breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It's just not good for your body. So I was always big on vegetables, but I didn't have a reason to just be vegetables. So once we watched What the Health, we watched another documentary, I think, Sea Spiritsy, Cowspiritsy. And our kids turned to us and was like, so are we going to still eat meat after we watch this? And we're like, you know, we kind of hesitated for a minute and they're like, we can't do that anymore. We saved the animals, don't eat the animals. So we're like, all right. So we basically decided we were going to try it out. Like, let's see what happens. Let's not eat meat and see how it goes. But that was like a year process, right? Because we started with just breakfast, omitting everything for meat by-products for breakfast, and that was tough, right? Because the quintessential American breakfast or a continental breakfast is sausages, bacon, eggs, you know what I mean? So that was tricky. But once we got past that, and that was probably like six months in, then we went to lunch. That took some time. Then once we had breakfast and lunch down, we moved in to dinner. But it was a gradual journey for us, you know? But there was no health reasons why there was, you know, you know, some people, you know, everyone has their own why. Some people have saved the planet. Some people have saved the animals, you know, it's health reasons. But for us, we just thought that we would be in a healthier place and we would just do our body even more by being plant-based. And we just kind of stuck with it.

Speaker 1:
[14:14] So I've been told that when it comes to plant-based eating, if you're going out to a restaurant and you don't really see anything ahead of time on the menu that's plant-based, if you call and you ask to speak to the chef ahead of time, nine times out of 10, they'll be happy to work with you and they view it as a challenge. As a chef yourself, is that actually a true statement?

Speaker 2:
[14:36] It's a 50-50 statement, you know what I mean? Because there are some chefs that could care less. I have to be honest with you, you know, especially like the meat-centric guys that, you know, the smoke, the barbecue, like they don't care, you know. But then there's some chefs that are like, yes, this is a challenge. I'm glad I highly accept it and I'm going to do my best to make you something memorable. So I think it just really depends on the establishment you go to, you know, if it's a local situation, a mom-and-pop place, you know, and the chef might not be versed in plant-based food, then it might be a challenge or a stretch. But if it's like a white tablecloth, fine dining situation, a high-end restaurant, then more than likely, it's not gonna be a problem.

Speaker 1:
[15:21] All right, now it's been said that a lot of chefs struggle when it comes to giving up animal products, right? It's just what we're trained in in this culture. What was the hardest thing that you had to teach yourself to replicate in terms of flavors, seasonings, even mouthfeel?

Speaker 2:
[15:40] Yeah, beef for mouthfeel. You know, that's you. It's crazy. And then I think bacon, eggs, butter, those are like my guys because I love cooking with bacon. And then just what I could do with bacon. So to be able to figure out things, and that's why I started playing with this recipe that I call my plant roast. And it's basically, you know, field roast, right?

Speaker 1:
[16:07] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:08] So I make my own version of my meat substitute that is similar to what that texture is like for their sausages. But I do it in a bigger scale so you can basically slice it really thin, turn it into bacon, you can cube it up, turn it into beef chunks. So I have a lot of fun with that. I can even turn it into grounds. So that recipe took some maneuvering and just engineering just because of, you know, it's all plants, it's wheat gluten, it's, you know, tofu, it's vegetables, it's spices. So to put that together in a way that when it's cooked and it's done, it gives you that chewability, that mouth texture, that beef, that beefy texture, even the flavor, because, you know, we're adding a lot of umami to it. We're adding mushroom powder and things like that. So it was, that was the challenge to really recreate the beefy texture and then eggs, you know, with eggs, eggs was tricky. And I'm talking eggs for like scrambled eggs or for omelets, right? Like with bacon, it's easy. You can do, you know, flax seeds, you can do bacon powder, applesauce, like, and you can basically replicate eggs aquafaba. So that, that part was easy. But the actual eggs for breakfast, you know, for an omelet, I didn't want to really rely so much on the heavily processed items that you get in the supermarket just because they just have, they do so much to it before we can actually get it to eat. So I made it a mission of mine to create my own version of liquid eggs. And once I figured out what was the best case scenario, which is a different kind of mung bean versus lentils versus chickpea. The chickpea is very grainy, but with mung dal, it's velvety smooth. And that literally creates the most amazing fluffy eggs. Like, I mean, it looks like real eggs, which is awesome.

Speaker 1:
[18:04] Yeah. And the store-bought stuff, even just egg, which I think itself is made with mung bean. There's just so much salt in there that, you know, like to me, when I eat that, that's really all I'm tasting. It's not all things considered a horrible substitute, but I want to something that's got more of an eggy flavor than the salt flavor. Are you using, speaking of salt, using like maybe black salt in there to replicate the flavor?

Speaker 2:
[18:29] Yeah, yeah, I put a little bit of that in there. I, so, you know, the thing is when you go plant-based, a lot of people get trapped in this box of trying to replicate the things that they're leaving behind. And I feel that's where a lot of people end up losing, you know, and just failing at being plant-based, right? So with the black salt, it gives you that sulfuric smell and aroma of eggs, but then you have to be very careful with it because too much of it is just overkill, you know what I mean? So you have to use it very sparingly. But I put a little bit in there, but the trick is putting things like onion powder and garlic powder and smoked paprika, that gives you a really natural eggy flavor without so much of that sulfuric salt added to it.

Speaker 1:
[19:17] Man, I'm looking at you and I'm like, your shirt's got creativity, your glasses have creativity, the hair definitely is creative. That means that you're a creative individual, right? So it sounds to me like as you're describing these things and based off of the way that you present yourself, like you're a creative guy, you must really enjoy the creative challenges of going into the kitchen and figuring out how to make this dish.

Speaker 2:
[19:40] A hundred percent. I definitely consider myself a creative. And I think that's why I do what I do for a living because consulting for me allows me to go into different kitchens, different cultures of food and be able to create and expand my horizon, my palate, and just my knowledge. So being able to have a challenge of something to create for me is always a blessing because it allows me to stretch my knowledge. And then with that, I'm able to learn and then create better food. So I always welcome learning something new.

Speaker 1:
[20:17] So when you say you're consulting, who are you consulting with? It sounds like you're going into some pretty big kitchens and showing them the plant-based ropes.

Speaker 2:
[20:25] So I consult for a lot of different people. I consult for the Hyatt, for the Marriott. I consult for individual owners. So it really just depends on the job that's needed or the individual that needs. So like, for instance, some of the projects that I did, I helped open up restaurants in the Hyatt and in the Marriott. But then I also helped to streamline setting up a 300-seat cafe in a mega church in California. So it just really depends on what the client is looking for, right? Is it recipe development? Is it creating systems? Like, I'm classically trained on cooking Asian food. So that's, you know, walk, cooking, walk techniques, you know, dumplings, dim sum, stuff like that. So one of the restaurants I consulted in a couple years ago was creating a walk program for the entire kitchen, because it's an Asian restaurant, a modern Asian restaurant. And this was one of the restaurants in the Marriott, the JW in Desert Ridge. So if you're ever in Phoenix and you go to the JW, Cambara is the name of the restaurant. And that's the team I trained to cook on a walk station. And so it just really depends on what the client needs. But my consultancy is basically fulfilling systems, creating systems, training staff, creating menus, coming up with recipes. It just really depends.

Speaker 1:
[21:48] Yeah, man. And that's really interesting to me. I'm curious about the Mega Church, the 300-seat cafe at the Mega Church. Is that exclusively plant-based at this Mega Church?

Speaker 2:
[21:59] No. So they are 50-50. They wanted to have a plant-based approach as well as regular food, because a lot of their... What's the word? A lot of the people that went to the church is old-school, southern. They weren't giving up their fried chicken. They weren't giving up their steaks, whatever it was. So the owners, the proprietors, they wanted to bridge that gap of new versus old. So they wanted to have something for the people that were stuck in that mindset and didn't want to change, but also wanted to provide something for the younger generation that was more plant-forward and was interested in being more plant-based.

Speaker 1:
[22:46] Let me ask you something. If somebody is listening to this right now, they may be working the hotel industry or they've got their own cafe, they're looking to make some changes. How do they go about working with you? What's the process like?

Speaker 2:
[22:57] Easy. So I have a website. So it's basically you find me or I find you and you say, hey, and this could be a mom and pop place. It doesn't have to be a massive establishment, right? And you said that I need help retraining my staff because food is taking too long to come out of the kitchen. So it's an email that they would send me. We would have a discovery call, a free discovery call. And once I hear their pain points, we would create a plan of how we will attack certain things. And then I send them that proposal and we start working.

Speaker 1:
[23:34] Your website is chefatharris.com. What is your website?

Speaker 2:
[23:37] Yes, chefatharris.com.

Speaker 1:
[23:39] So there it is, chefatharris.com. We've got a link down below in the show description and in the episode notes. Now for the benefit of those who are listening right now or watching at home, maybe they've got a bland dish right now sitting in the refrigerator, right? Last night's dinner just didn't quite hit, right? They want to give it a second go. What are the principles you might recommend that could help bring that dish to life?

Speaker 2:
[24:07] Okay. Say you've already made a sauce, right? It was lacking in something, like even a tomato sauce. I would bring up the ante by adding fresh basil, adding even some coconut milk, right? Really tasty, like I do this. Roasted peppers, roasted red peppers, roasted tomatoes, lots of shallots, garlic, lots of garlic. Roast that, blend it with coconut milk, and then add that to that pasta, right? So it really depends on what they're making. If it was a soup and it kind of felt short, then I would char some vegetables, right? And add that to the soup just to bring up that umami, bring up that flavor profile. And then fresh herbs. You can't, don't sleep on fresh herbs. They will brighten up your dish in an instant. And then acid. Acid is really important. Don't forget acid. And what do I mean by acid? It's you know, a splash of lemon juice, lime juice, even zesting the lemon or the lime, right? And adding that to your soups or even your salads goes a really long way. Like last night, I made a salad with baby kale, green lettuce, but I added a bunch of parsley, added a bunch of cilantro to that and just kind of mix it up. So it's a very herbaceous salad. So salads doesn't have to be boring. You know, you can brighten it up. You can add different things, you know, hemp seeds in there for a little bit of texture. So it really just depends on what you want to, what you want the end product to be in terms of the flavor profiles. But I always tell people cook like you're a kid. You know, when you're a child, you experiment like you don't, you're not afraid to put peanut butter with, you know, whatever it is that you're eating, right? So have that same reckless abandonment when it comes to cooking and not be so stuck in this, well, this is how I've been shown, this is how I was taught how to cook, this is what I have to do. Like, no, like you can switch, you can take things out, you can add new things and just try it. But be smart about it. Don't just dump a whole cup of something in there, like do a spoon, do a tablespoon, and then, you know, you can add more. You can always add more, but you can never take it out once you've added in already.

Speaker 1:
[26:19] All right, all right, so, I mean, I practically shut down when you said parsley, right? Because parsley is a spice that I have had in my cabinet for my entire life, dry. I'm 43. I couldn't tell you what the hell parsley tastes like. It's been in my cabinet my entire freaking life. I mean, I know it as a garnish, or maybe you add a tablespoon or a teaspoon like into a dish. I couldn't tell you what it tastes like. What does parsley actually taste like, man?

Speaker 2:
[26:49] Parsley. Okay. So when I lived in New York, there was this place that did a really delicious vegetable soup, and right before they brought it out to the table, they would chop fresh parsley and add to it. I'm telling you, the flavor that that parsley did to the soup was impeccable, and without the parsley, it's a completely different soup. So parsley is just one of those things that's just bright, it's green, it's very floral. There isn't like a strong bitter or savory taste to it, it just kind of is. So if you think of any herbs, the minute you just hear herbs, you can think of parsley because it's not like rosemary, which is very strong, very bitter, right? Cilantro, on the other hand, for some people, kind of tastes soapy. For some people, it doesn't, but parsley is just very clean, and it goes a long way with so many different things. Like I added to my pasta, I added like a lot of parsley just chopped up, throw in there. I mean, soups, you can put it in your rice, you can put it in your beans. I mean, even in your salads, and I'm talking like leaves. So it just gives you this herbaceous bite to your salads or to whatever it is that you're eating, and it just brightens your dish. Think of it that way. It brightens the flavor.

Speaker 1:
[28:11] Herbaceous bite. That sounds like the name of a book, man. You should file that one away. That's pretty good right there. Right? That's really good. So parsley then is kind of like that entry level, non-offensive herb that everybody and the boss can agree on.

Speaker 2:
[28:28] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[28:29] Good to know. You talk about layering flavor, and I think that spices, flavors are everything, obviously, when it comes to plant-based cooking. So can you walk us through how one would go about layering flavor, the chef, Ed Harris Wei?

Speaker 2:
[28:46] Yes, definitely. Let's say we're doing beans, we're making a pot of beans, right? First layer of flavor would be caramelizing the onions, the garlic, the shallots, right? That's the first level of flavor. Once that's caramelized, you add your beans, you add your water. Second layer of flavor comes in now where you're adding your dry spices, your dry herbs, right? Your seasoning. Once that comes to a boil, you're checking flavor profiles, you're then adding your salt, and at the end, you're finishing with your fresh cilantro, or your fresh parsley, or you're finishing with rosemary. That's three levels and three different distinctive places that you're adding these flavor profiles because if you add herbs at the very beginning, by the time your beans are done, you can't taste it. You've killed it. By adding it at the very end, I'm talking about five minutes before you turn off the fire, you're adding your fresh herbs. This way it stays and it lingers and you don't overkill it. So it's really important to know when to add certain things. With the dry spices, you can add this in the very early stages because it's dry and it needs time to bloom, and it needs time for the flavor to penetrate throughout the beans. So that's why I would add the spices early and then add the fresh herbs at the very end. So herbs, you always want to add them at the very end because they don't need to be cooked, right? Because these are things that you can eat raw. So because you can eat it raw, you don't need to put it in very early. So this way, once you eat your food, you can actually taste those flavor profiles.

Speaker 1:
[30:20] Oh, I like that, man. That sounds just like a flavorful blanket, just like layered, you know, just so man. That's a beautiful thing. I've got a couple of deeper questions for you and then we're gonna wrap things up with some fun personality style. Things, but one of the things that I love about cooking is the culture that comes with it. I think that, you know, even beyond just like how it can nourish our bodies, I feel like food and a good meal can nourish the community and bring us together and help heal a lot of that divide that we feel. And you talk about that, bringing people together through food as well. How important is it that we put these wonderful, flavorful, healthy, nourishing dishes in every way possible? How important is it that we put these things together and make them available, especially in these communities that are underserved and really need a good amount of help?

Speaker 2:
[31:13] You know, it's unfortunate, right? Because one, you figure there are all of these places where there's no access to really fresh food, right? So you have to, you can only rely on the supermarkets. And then, you know, with the supermarkets, you have a situation where sometimes the food is not that great, even in the supermarkets, even in nice neighborhoods, sometimes the lettuce is all totally limp, you know, it looks weathered. So it's really tough, but it's so important because I feel the more we can re-educate the community and just the world in terms of what's really good for you and how it benefits our body, I think more people will be open to it. Because unfortunately, you know, being plant-based or being vegan gets this bad rep. And obviously, that's from some people that initially started that, that had their nose up in the air and like, oh, well, if you're not vegan, you know, I can't talk to you or, you know, you wear leather and, you know, you're the worst person in the world, you know. So obviously, there are levels to veganism. There's, you know, there's reasons why people do it. But the most important thing is, I think, just re-educating people in what's possible. Because I have fed a lot of people that are not plant-based, that are not vegan, that loves meat that will never change. And they have said this to me personally, face to face. But when I create food and I serve them and they eat it, they're like, man, if I could eat this every day, I would be plant-based. So I think it's just getting that knowledge of it's possible and this is how to do it. And it's not as intricate as a lot of people make it out to be. I think more people will be open to trying it. And then the other part of that is, I feel a lot of people say no or they put up this big X in front of you because they're forced into it, right? Like, you know, it's different when you make plant-based food and you just say, here, I made this, try it, let me know what you think versus I'm making vegan food, you're going to try it, you're going to love it. And it's like, you know, it's like asking a kid to eat vegetables that has this pre-notion that vegetables are yuck because you hear it in the cartoons, you hear it in the movies. Not like it's going to taste good. I have already put up this guard that I'm not going to try it, I don't want to eat it, it's not going to taste good. So first things first is making the food look presentable enough that entices people to want to try it. And then secondly, is not forcing people into it, is saying, these are the things that I made, try to let me know what you think and just be open to them trying it or not trying it. But when you force feed people into this lifestyle or this journey, that's where you get the rebuttal and that's where you get people saying I don't want it because they now feel like they didn't have a choice in the matter.

Speaker 1:
[34:37] Spot on man, spot on. At the same time though, I can't judge the people too harshly who are in this for ethical reasons because that's their why and I don't want to discount that. But what I will say is that when a person builds those walls around themselves, four walls, no doors, this is the box that I belong in. It's impossible for them to go outside and see the world and experience it through another set of eyes. And I think it's so easy to get lost in our own little boxes these days, but man, like just go out there, take that softer approach you were talking about and you will be amazed by how receptive so many people can be even the ones that you think there's no chance in hell that they would ever eat a plant-based dish. They may be the first ones to come and try what it is you're making.

Speaker 2:
[35:28] A hundred percent. I totally agree with you. And then the other part of that too, I think is embracing different cultures, right? Because you have plant-based in America, you have plant-based in India, which is totally awesome. You have plant-based in Japan, China, in the Caribbean. So it's like, if you're able to travel, I think that really helps, you know? And for me, I love traveling the world and being able to just embrace different cultures and see what they do for plant-based food and just see the possibilities. So you're not stuck in this box of what you think plant-based is, because plant-based in America and plant-based in Europe, plant-based in Asia is completely different, you know? But it's still fruits and it's still vegetables, but it's the way they do it that makes it enticing or not.

Speaker 1:
[36:21] All right. Let me channel my inner M&M here and offer you one shot. You look, you only have one shot to seize everything you ever wanted, or in this case, one shot to convert a meat lover into a plant-based eater. What dish are you serving that person?

Speaker 2:
[36:38] I would do a pasta. It's very simple. Pasta is already plant-based. Okay, so if you're doing bolognese, obviously it's not plant-based, but you can do marinara sauce, pasta. But for me, the way I do my pasta, I just feel it's super delicious and it's like lots of garlic. I'm talking lots of garlic, caramelized them, deep brown, really good extra virgin olive oil. Once that's there, then I do fresh cherry tomatoes, cut them in half, have them on the side, cook that pasta al dente, add it to the garlic, add a little bit of that pasta water, bring that up together so it's nice and coats the pasta really well. Fold in that fresh cut tomatoes, just enough where it's warm but not cooked through so it's not breaking down. So when you eat it, you get these bursts of tomatoes with the pasta, and then finish that with, I cook mushrooms very fine. I chop them up, I do eat the oyster mushrooms, or hand of the woods, caramelize those really nicely so they're crisp, put that on top of the pasta, lots of parsley, fresh basil, and I mean, you're not going to say no, like you're going to enjoy that dish, and there's no dairy, there's no meat, there's nothing in it.

Speaker 1:
[37:55] No, man, I mean, look, that sounds good, my mouth's watering. I'm only smiling because you brought up the parsley again.

Speaker 2:
[38:01] See, I'm telling you, man, it's a game changer. Don't sleep on the parsley.

Speaker 1:
[38:07] I will not sleep on the parsley moving forward. I'll tell you what I never sleep on is a mushroom. What is your favorite mushroom to cook with?

Speaker 2:
[38:14] I don't have one, man. Chuck, I got to tell you, I love morels, I love lobster mushrooms, oyster mushrooms, let's go, the takis, my takis. I mean, button mushrooms and portabellas. Okay, so with those guys, they're cool if you don't have anything else. You know what I mean? But the only issue is, supermarkets, the way they sell them. And I feel that's another reason why people don't love mushrooms, because supermarkets wrap them up in plastic. They need to breathe. And that's why when you get mushrooms in the supermarket and you open them, they have that really funky smell, is because they've been trapped under that plastic. So because of that, they get murky, they get funky, and then you're cooking them, you're like, oh, it don't taste good. And then if you don't know how to cook mushrooms, which a lot of people don't, you end up overcrowding the pan, and you end up creating this stewed thing versus these deliciously caramelized, I can go on and on about mushrooms, if you couldn't tell, like I'm a mushroom fanatic, so I'll pause there.

Speaker 1:
[39:18] I knew somebody in upstate New York who goes foraging for mushrooms, and they swear up one side and down the other, they come back and it is the greatest tasting meal that they'll ever have in their life when they cook with those things, man.

Speaker 2:
[39:34] Yeah, there's nothing like freshly foraged mushrooms. Like it's night and day.

Speaker 1:
[39:39] Dude, I don't know, man. I would think like for me, if I'm just out there picking mushrooms, I'm playing Russian roulette with my health. I don't know what's good and what's not, man. I'm like, I got to rely on the experts like you, man. I'm not picking my own. No, no.

Speaker 2:
[39:50] I mean, I can find some, but there's some out there that definitely I won't know poisonous or not. And there's some deadly poisonous mushrooms out there, man. So you really have to be careful.

Speaker 1:
[40:01] Yes, sir. All right. Let's take it home with a couple of fun quick ones. Other than parsley, we got to take that one off the plate here. What is the most underrated ingredient that is in your kitchen?

Speaker 2:
[40:13] Underrated ingredient? Liquid smoke.

Speaker 1:
[40:19] Oh, good one. All right. What is one spice that you can't live without?

Speaker 2:
[40:25] Smoked paprika.

Speaker 1:
[40:27] Oh, exotic. Nice. Early bird or night owl in the kitchen, my friend?

Speaker 2:
[40:33] Both. I mean, I've done gigs where I was in the kitchen at 530, and I didn't leave till 2 o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 1:
[40:46] That's a late night, man. If you were not a chef, what would you be?

Speaker 2:
[40:51] A designer.

Speaker 1:
[40:52] Yeah, I knew it was going to be something creative. I was like, there's no way I'm going to be an accountant. I would have called BS on that so fast. I'd be like, no way my man's crunching numbers, man. All right. Final question. One word that would describe your cooking style?

Speaker 2:
[41:13] Crazy.

Speaker 1:
[41:14] Crazy. I like that, man. I like that a lot. All right. We talked about working with you in terms of your consultancy, but then you also have your spice line. Talk to us about that.

Speaker 2:
[41:26] I co-founded a brand called Flavor Bomb with Chef Angelo Sosa. He's currently on Food Network right now in Flavortown. We basically are a basebook spice brand where we do custom blends for hotels, for restaurants. We have our own seasoning line that we carry, but we also get clients that say, hey, I want to create this seasoning salt for my fries, or I want to create this blend for my potatoes in the morning for breakfast. We formulate, we facilitate that packaging, everything, and we ship it out to them. So that's my spice business, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[42:03] All right. And if somebody goes to knifeandspoon.com, knife and spoon.com, what would they find there, my friend?

Speaker 2:
[42:12] They're going to find my cookbooks there. They're going to find other consulting offers that I have as well. That's basically my website for my products. So you'll get cookbooks there. You'll get merch. You will get, what else is on there? I think, yeah, that's and some spices. So knife and spoon is my first spice company. So there is seasonings on there as well that are not associated with the seasonings that I have with Flavor Bomb, two completely different flavor profiles. Knife and spoon is more approachable to the everyday cook, and Flavor Bomb is more for the industry folk and the specialized chefs.

Speaker 1:
[42:49] All right. And final, final question. Put on your thinking cap. Look into the future, ten years. What does the future of plant-based eating a decade from now look like?

Speaker 2:
[43:01] I think it's going to be more plant-based options in terms of protein, but definitely I think healthier in terms of people realizing that you can't rely so much on the packaged items in the supermarkets, you know, with the fancy labels. So I think it's more along the lines of this is the healthier route to take. For instance, the government just decided that they're going to be bringing in more plant-based foods into the hospitals and the supermarkets and into the schools. So I think everyone is starting to see that this is necessary. So I think plant-based is just going to be more widespread. And I think people are going to understand it a little bit better and be more open to it.

Speaker 1:
[43:45] Amen to that. And you're going to be on the forefront of everything, bringing us the flavor complete with parsley. All right, man, Chef Ed Harris, we have a link to everything down below in the show description and in the episode notes. Really enjoyed getting to know you, man. This has been a lot of fun.

Speaker 2:
[44:00] Thank you so much for the interview. It was amazing. The questions were awesome.

Speaker 1:
[44:04] You're good, man. I appreciate your style, your fashion, your candor, everything about you. You're my guy.

Speaker 2:
[44:09] I love the hat and the tie.

Speaker 1:
[44:11] Thank you, sir. Game knows game, man. Game knows game.

Speaker 2:
[44:14] That's right. That's right.

Speaker 1:
[44:24] Chef Ed Harris bringing the flavor bomb today. No pun intended. And that is an honest to God true statement that I don't really know what parsley tastes like. I feel like I really need to go and invest in some fresh parsley right now. But for the life of me, it has just been kind of a flavorless herb that gets added to things from time to time, or simply a garnish. But it is not the piece de resistance of a dish, the way that Chef Ed Harris was making it out to be. But now it will be, if that makes sense, parsley for the win. All right, my friends, let's talk about the five big takeaways from today's episode. Parsley excluded. Number one, flavor is everything. And honestly, you probably didn't even need this episode to know that, because plant-based food does not fall short at all when it comes to flavor. It only falls short when it's not prepared properly. So once you learn how to layer the flavor from caramelized aromatics, spices to fresh herbs at the end, you will be creating dishes that hit on every single level. Number two, fresh ingredients change the game. As Chef Ed said, there is a night and day difference between freshly harvested produce and then what's been sitting in transit and at the grocery store. Go to farmer's markets, go to co-op programs. These can be your secret weapons. Number three, you do not need to reinvent the wheel. You just need to reapply it. The same techniques that are used for flavoring meat, grilling and roasting and seasoning can be applied to things like tofu and vegetables and other plant-based ingredients. It's not about losing flavor, it's simply about redirecting it. I like that, redirecting flavor. That's a new term, I like that. Number four, stop trying to force people, instead, invite them. And this was a huge point from Chef Ed, because if you present plant-based foods as delicious first and then labels second, you'll win people over without resistance. Food is about experience. It's not about pressure. And number five, don't sleep on the simple stuff. Talking about parsley and acid and fresh herbs, these small touches can completely transform a dish. And sometimes, the difference between meh and wow, it's just one simple touch. In this case, could be parsley. I don't know. But what I do know is that if you feel like you've raised your health IQ by a point or two today, do us a favor and pay it forward. Share this episode with a friend. Tell them how they can layer up their flavor in a healthy way. And then also be sure to leave a five-star rating and a nice review for The Exam Room on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever it is that you get your shows. And for today, that is going to wrap things up. I wanna say thank you one more time to the flavor master, Chef Ed Harris, for being here and raising our health and our kitchen IQs. And for everyone here at the Physicians Committee, I am Chuck Carroll. Thank you so very much for listening. And remember, as always, keep it plant-based.