transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] When did you start realizing this isn't normal?

Speaker 2:
[00:03] We were trafficked in front of the whole world. Let's talk about cults. I'm always knitting, just go with it. I'm watching the news, and it's saying, Children of God Cult, Children of God Cult. And I was like, oh. You know, performance is really brilliant for trafficking children. You don't think, are they getting paid? Are they being abused? Oh, you're gonna go to hell if you don't grow up and stay in the family. Okay, hell's gonna suck. Love bombing is how you get drawn into a cult.

Speaker 1:
[00:29] I've been in a one-on-one cult then.

Speaker 2:
[00:31] If you're hearing a story of the girl who grew up in one of the worst cults and you're relating, that's a cult. So when I was a lieutenant, the battle captain in charge had me at a Kardashian update brief to the end.

Speaker 1:
[00:48] You've got to be kidding.

Speaker 2:
[00:49] To the end of every intelligence brief.

Speaker 1:
[00:52] My god. Okay, military, who knew? Okay. So girl, I feel like we have so much to talk about. I definitely had my mouth on the floor. I was on just a bunch of different emotions doing my research about you. It's really inspiring that you're standing and positive and here today, and that you're so willing and open to be on my podcast with me and to talk about your journey. So thank you for being here. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:
[01:25] Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1:
[01:27] I would love if you can talk a little bit about your childhood and how you were raised. I want to sort of set the stage for the listeners and viewers out there.

Speaker 2:
[01:37] So I was born third generation into the Children of God. So my grandfather joined this cult in the 70s. And the Children of God is one of these cults that came out of the late 60s, early 70s, had a lot to do with blow back from the civil rights movement. We just had a lot of cults popping up at that time. So my grandfather joined in the 70s. My mom was one of the first children born in. And by the time she's 14, she is pregnant by my grandfather's boss, who's the senior finance guy. My father is older than my grandfather. So then I was born in the Philippines, because this cult went international in, pretty much after Manson and stuff started getting a bad name.

Speaker 1:
[02:24] Right.

Speaker 2:
[02:25] And so he got a revelation from God to go spread love around the world.

Speaker 1:
[02:31] Got it.

Speaker 2:
[02:32] When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, we were 10,000 people living in communes all around the world.

Speaker 1:
[02:38] 10,000 people is so many people.

Speaker 2:
[02:42] And David Berg actually was just kind of a better cult leader than other cult leaders. So what he did was he showed up and he collected a bunch of other cults into his cult.

Speaker 1:
[02:53] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[02:54] And so built a giant cult very fast. And the Children of God was always good at performing. So they used music as a tool. You throw a music festival in Huntington Beach, you get a bunch of interesting people. People don't realize they're being brainwashed. And they're at a music festival, right? They believe they're having a religious experience. And you had so many young people that were just so passionate about this. And they did a really good job passing us off as just this, right? A missionary group with all these young, cute children who love Jesus and sing and perform. So sort of, you know, Von Trapp family singers, but for Jesus.

Speaker 1:
[03:36] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[03:36] And so I was born in the Philippines, lived in Japan, Peru, and then a decade in Brazil.

Speaker 1:
[03:42] Oh, wow.

Speaker 2:
[03:43] Most of what I remember is growing up in Brazil and then Mexico as a child. And we were completely cut off from the world in that, you know, we had no music from the outside world. We had barely any movies. We had no books. The only things we were allowed to read was the King James Bible and stuff that our leader wrote. And that was just our life, you know, the kids.

Speaker 1:
[04:11] So no school, nothing like that.

Speaker 2:
[04:12] We were technically home schooled. Okay. But the belief was that Jesus is coming back any day. So why do we need to waste our time with school?

Speaker 1:
[04:22] Got it.

Speaker 2:
[04:22] So I would say, you know, they focused a lot on teaching us to read and speak and perform in public because, you know, performance is really brilliant for trafficking children. Because when you see these shiny, smiley, dancing children, you don't think, you know, are they getting paid? Are they being abused?

Speaker 1:
[04:42] Right.

Speaker 2:
[04:43] Are they happy to be there?

Speaker 1:
[04:44] Right.

Speaker 2:
[04:45] And of course, you know, unfortunately, the Children of God is the cult that is famous for sexual abuse. You know, he started in the 70s using the women who joined the cult as religious prostitutes and called them flirty fishing. And it was, you know, a very culty thing to do was take this verse from the Bible where he says, I will make you fishers of men. And he said, right, go out and fish men.

Speaker 1:
[05:11] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[05:12] And then it got, you know, kind of heated up for the Children of God in the 80s, in Time Magazine as a sex cult with this, like, I call it a harem photo, you know, old dude, 13 scantily clad women. And that name became very synonymous with bad stuff and cults. So, they rebranded and they did a pretty good job. They called themselves the Family International. And by the 90s, they were performing twice in the White House.

Speaker 1:
[05:41] No, they were not. Okay. That's crazy rebrand.

Speaker 2:
[05:46] Yeah. And so, they just sort of switched from prostitution to performance, you know, entertainment.

Speaker 1:
[05:54] Right.

Speaker 2:
[05:54] And so, you know, it's interesting when I watched the Quiet On Set documentary about kids growing up in Hollywood. I was like, oh, we were just the poorest, most abused end of this.

Speaker 1:
[06:06] Oof. That's really, really sad.

Speaker 2:
[06:08] And the weird thing about the Children of God for being such an obvious cult was it wasn't like with the polygamous Mormons where we were shut away and never saw the world. We were trafficked in front of the whole world.

Speaker 1:
[06:22] And you guys were doing a lot of street performances and that kind of thing.

Speaker 2:
[06:26] And this is what Joaquin and River Phoenix and Rose McGowan were sort of a part of growing up. Which is street performing.

Speaker 1:
[06:34] Crazy. From what I've hear or know about cults, and I don't know if it's accurate, you are cut off from the outside world. Like how do you manage 10,000 people from not going to say something?

Speaker 2:
[06:46] So I think what people misunderstand about brainwashing the most is, all brainwashing is, is getting you to not question. It's getting you to just not go there. And so isolation doesn't have to be completely on a commune, never seeing the world.

Speaker 1:
[07:07] Right.

Speaker 2:
[07:08] You know, and actually I think the Mormons taught us a lot about this. Where like you can appear to be participating in the world, but you're like insulated from it.

Speaker 1:
[07:18] And as a child, do you remember if you enjoyed those moments, like performing and being out of the commune? I really did.

Speaker 2:
[07:27] And I, you know, I always say like the only thing that's more theater kids than theater kids is evangelical performing kids. And I think that it's because we were so controlled all of the time. You know, what I say about life growing up in the Children of God, everyone focuses on the sexual abuse and the belief in pedophilia. But what I say like was the worst abuse was just no spontaneous moments of joy. You know, we were essentially soldiers growing up in the Army of God. But I was a very good performer. And so when I got on the stage, I could be larger than life and loud and dance and those kinds of things. So I really enjoyed it. And I feel very lucky that I got to grow up in Latin America. Like if I had to be born in one of the world's worst cults, I'm glad I got to grow up in Brazil and get all of that beautiful culture from it and not just like Ohio or Utah.

Speaker 1:
[08:30] That is a beautiful perspective. So when did you realize that, okay, this either one isn't normal? I don't know if you had the wherewithal to know this is an exact cult, but when did you start realizing, okay, this isn't normal?

Speaker 2:
[08:44] Very, very young. I remember being six years old. Isolation is not even the correct word, like solitary confinement, just for being a bad kid, which is to say a kid. In almost all cults, you will start to see iron-fisted control of children because they have to. I always say, to me, one of the warning signs of kids is when you see all the kids in a row like that, and they're just perfectly behaved. You see that in the FBI's investigation of Waco. The kids, and they're like, these kids are so well-behaved, three- and four-year-olds that sit for four hours in the middle of the night. That's not normal.

Speaker 1:
[09:32] No.

Speaker 2:
[09:32] That comes from abuse and fear.

Speaker 1:
[09:35] That's horrible. Do you wonder, or maybe your mom did, do you wonder why your mom didn't have the same questioning?

Speaker 2:
[09:44] I mean, I wondered that a lot as a teenager, but I just think that she grew up in that exact same environment. I say about my mom, she tried to teach us the lessons she learned in a little bit of a kinder way, and a little bit more protective, and the Children of God was extremely about corporal punishment, but she never let us older kids discipline the younger kids, for example. So she saved me from that specific kind of trauma.

Speaker 1:
[10:21] Right.

Speaker 2:
[10:22] But also, she was just such a true believer. So once I started telling my story, it was when she found out that one of my main abusers, who was a very famous person, was also someone who had abused her as a child. But because the rules had changed and the rebrand had happened, and we didn't do that stuff anymore, she just never questioned it. She never questioned whether her own children were at risk.

Speaker 1:
[10:52] No way. Because even though it's just a rebrand, I didn't know that inside the cult, that was believable. But I would think that people within would be like, what a crock.

Speaker 2:
[11:04] I mean, you would think, but I think this is the problem for me when cults rebrand. This very specific type of rebrand, which we also see with the Mormons and their belief in polygamy, which was we can't do it because of the outside world. It wasn't the prophet was wrong. The prophet very specifically was like when girls get their periods, which as we were talking about is younger and younger all the time. That's when God intends for them to be sexually active and to start having babies. That's crazy. They quickly realized actually when I was born that, well, if you have a bunch of 14, 15-year-old, 13-year-old girls running around with babies, it's like that's proof of abuse. So we got to be more careful. So they made the rule 16, right? But what you did back then, and to my mom specifically was given this, like when you got pregnant from an older man, that wasn't wrong because that was allowed back then.

Speaker 1:
[12:05] That is so, so sad and so hard. This is where your mom was growing up. This was her whole existence in life. I don't even understand how someone would feel as a mother on the inside, that war within themselves. That has to be really, really hard.

Speaker 2:
[12:23] And ultimately, I think she had that war going on in her much more than even she realized. I think she was trying to be a true believer her whole life. But when I, at 15, so I was always a problem kid within the cult, which is just to say again, outgoing, noisy, creative. A normal, rambunctious child with ADHD.

Speaker 1:
[12:50] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[12:52] And so I was always in trouble, always in trouble. I mean, one of the reasons I think I'm always knitting is because I just have so much terror of being alone with nothing to do. Because that was, you know, they use solitary confinement a lot as a punishment.

Speaker 1:
[13:08] But I started knitting at a really young age.

Speaker 2:
[13:10] Yeah, she taught me how to knit when I was five.

Speaker 1:
[13:13] And that is like your soothing mechanism? Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[13:17] My stim, it keeps me calm. It, you know, I've knit through my entire life, through two times to war.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[17:36] You asked me when I knew we were different.

Speaker 1:
[17:38] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[17:39] I always knew that. At the age of six, I was like, you're going to go to hell if you don't grow up and stay in the family. Okay, hell's going to suck. It was my attitude. I just think I was a little neurodivergent atheist, born to religious extremists. I was always trying to get out. My problem was my grandparents were in the cult. I was third generation, so I had no one to go to. I was like, well, I'm going to have to be 18. But by the time I was 15, I had gotten pretty desperate. It was bad. The abuse was bad. I was living with very abusive men again and being just straight trafficked, like trafficked as a carnival clown through Mexico and lower Texas, and I was just done. I really didn't want to turn 16 in the group because that's when you were expected to have sex with whoever wanted, because this was still, they call it free love. I called it forced polyamory. You were supposed to have sex with whoever wanted it as a sign of God's love. And they didn't believe in birth control, because the best way for cults to get new members is to birth their own. So watching my mom who had seven kids in 14 years, seventh child born when she was 30, and I was like, I can't do this. So I ended up basically getting myself excommunicated, just very dramatically climbing over the commune wall to go fellowship with an outsider, go see a boy. And then I got caught.

Speaker 1:
[19:11] So did you get caught intentionally?

Speaker 2:
[19:14] No, I've just fell asleep and didn't wake up in time to sneak back in. I say no like that because I was sneaking out every single night. So it was bound to happen. And I wanted to get caught. I wanted my parents to be so mad at me that I could just yell at them, I want to leave the family. Because that's the thing that's hard to explain, which is like, yeah, I wanted nothing to do with that life. But it's really hard to tell your whole family, you don't care if you ever see them again, and if you don't go to heaven with them.

Speaker 1:
[19:51] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[19:51] Just because you want your own life. And, you know, so funny too, because I wanted to leave the Children of God, so I could go to high school. That was my, I was like.

Speaker 1:
[20:05] Yeah, because at this point, you had no proper schooling, you had home school, but it's done for whatever they want you to learn.

Speaker 2:
[20:12] Yeah. So I was facing excommunication. And the thing about cults is, there's no sin that is worse than the sin of leaving. So they will always accept you back in, as long as you're willing to like humble yourself and let them break you and then like recommit. And so I was wavering because as much as I wanted to leave, I was 15 and I didn't know a thing about the outside world.

Speaker 1:
[20:39] So where are you going?

Speaker 2:
[20:40] It was also scary.

Speaker 1:
[20:41] Right.

Speaker 2:
[20:42] And so I was like going back and forth. Meanwhile, my mom had been, when she was 20, she'd been married off in her third arranged marriage to a man who was 20 years older than her.

Speaker 1:
[20:56] Sorry if this is inappropriate, but does that mean, did she have three husbands at one time?

Speaker 2:
[21:00] No, when she was 13, she was symbolically married to the 75 year old prophet in this really crazy marriage ceremony where he had 14 girls ranging from three to 14.

Speaker 1:
[21:14] Stop.

Speaker 2:
[21:14] One of them was his granddaughter. One of them was his daughter. Oh, I mean, this is why the Children of God gets known as one of the most extreme cults. Then in order to hide who my father was, they married her off when she was 16 to an 18-year-old boy. That lasted about two years as teen marriages do. Then by the time she was 20, they married her off to a senior leader. My dad was one of the big musicians and performers that wrote music for the whole group.

Speaker 1:
[21:47] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[21:47] Anyway, so he had seven older children. My mom and dad had arranged for me to go live with one of my step-siblings. How I did not know, by the way.

Speaker 1:
[21:58] But they were still in the cult.

Speaker 2:
[21:59] No, they were out of the cult.

Speaker 1:
[22:01] Got it.

Speaker 2:
[22:01] Because I was being thrown out.

Speaker 1:
[22:03] Got it.

Speaker 2:
[22:03] It was either my parents were going to have to leave the cult since I was so young, unless they could find a place for me. I'm wavering back and forth, and my mom takes me on a walk outside the commune where nobody can hear us.

Speaker 1:
[22:20] This is a rare thing.

Speaker 2:
[22:21] Yeah. She just looks at me, she's like, just go. She's like, go. You're not happy here. We have a place for you. Just go. She's out of the cult now. We have a great relationship. She had told me, she was like, yeah, you were so miserable all the time. I just could not keep seeing you like that.

Speaker 1:
[22:42] But did she let you go where you didn't have to stay with your step-siblings?

Speaker 2:
[22:47] No, I went to go.

Speaker 1:
[22:48] You went there. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[22:49] So, they brought me from, we were in Guadalajara, Mexico at the time, and they brought me to Houston, Texas and dropped me off. The high school was 4,000 students.

Speaker 1:
[23:01] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:
[23:02] So, I show up. I show up to enroll. I have a social security card and a passport, and that's it. Never been in school a day in my life.

Speaker 1:
[23:11] But this culture shock for you. Now, your parents aren't with you. You are taken out of regardless of how fucked up it was.

Speaker 2:
[23:20] It's still everything you know.

Speaker 1:
[23:22] The only world you knew. At 15 years old, now you're taken with your step-sibling that you didn't really know, you said, right? Right. You're now going into this high school with 4,000 people.

Speaker 2:
[23:36] Also culture shock.

Speaker 1:
[23:37] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[23:38] I've never lived in America before. That's true. So, on my first day of high school, I have been telling myself like, I'm different, I'm shocked because I grew up in Brazil, right? I grew up in Mexico. Then on my first day, I'm standing in the hallway and I'm hearing these two teenagers have just like a debate. You think they were talking about evolution versus whatever. I remember being like, oh, I don't even know how to think like that.

Speaker 1:
[24:06] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[24:07] My conclusion was, oh, I'm not from another country, I'm from another planet.

Speaker 1:
[24:12] Yeah. Did you have to worry about money in some regard? Yes. But you didn't have to worry about paying for the roof over your head or anything like that?

Speaker 2:
[24:21] I didn't have to pay for the roof over my head. I still had to find a job. Yeah. What do you do? The thing about the Children of God is the children were the workers, the children were the earners. Culture is always about labor. So there was never a moment in my life that I felt like I could just rely on my sister, like she's not my parent. I don't want to cost her any money, be any trouble. My problem was I was not even 16. In most places in America, you have to be 16 to have a job. I ended up getting hired at Chick-fil-A. It was funny because I got hired to be the sample girl in the mall. My boss would always come out and be like, you need to smile. We hired you because of your smile. I was like, this is the same thing I used to do in the college.

Speaker 1:
[25:10] Oh, yeah. I guess.

Speaker 2:
[25:12] Right. But to me, the hard part was trying to fit in in high school. Work, I have always been used to. That wasn't hard. I wanted to go to school so bad, so I loved school.

Speaker 1:
[25:26] How did you even, because you just loved school, so then you were like, I need to go to college, too.

Speaker 2:
[25:32] But I also, looking back now, I realized two things. This one, when you're growing up in a cult, you have to be perfect all the time. What you learn is you have to be perfect all of the time. So I had to get straight A's, had to. I was a valedictorian of my Arts and Humanities program, graduating college. I was working one to four jobs, and I look back now and I was like, I just put myself in another high control program so that I didn't have to think about my trauma, so that I didn't have to deal with any of that.

Speaker 1:
[26:08] When I was sitting here, I was going to say, it sounds like you're filling up your time with so much stuff so you don't have to think about the horrific childhood that you had.

Speaker 2:
[26:19] Years later, I was reading a book called Third Culture Kids, and it talked about how for kids that feel out of place, good grades can be a sign of depression, and I had never related to anything that hard.

Speaker 1:
[26:32] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[26:32] I was like, yeah, school doesn't fail me. I can't get kids my age to like me or not think I'm weird, but I can get my teachers to love me if I'm their best student.

Speaker 1:
[26:44] Did you have friends growing up in high school? No. Or college? Not in high school at all. No.

Speaker 2:
[26:49] In college.

Speaker 1:
[26:49] So college was very interesting. Another isolating moment for you.

Speaker 2:
[26:52] Oh, that's so sad. In college, one of the things I think is that I didn't know who I was supposed to be. The only thing I could figure out to do was like, well, I got to try to just pass as a little white ex-evangelical girl from Texas. I look back now and one of the things I tell my audience of Cult Survivors is like, if you grew up being held separate from the world, you didn't grow up in that culture and you're not going to pass. I wish someone had told me that. Just like when you're performing, when you're the straight A student, nobody thinks you're at risk. I had a moment when I was 17 and there was a murder-suicide. The founder's son killed one of his abusers and then took his own life. So I had this extremely surreal moment where I'm watching the news and it's saying, Children of God Cult, Children of God Cult, Children of God Cult. I was like, I grew up in a cult.

Speaker 1:
[28:03] Right. You realized then that's the cult.

Speaker 2:
[28:06] Literally, I was like, that's what's wrong with me.

Speaker 1:
[28:09] That's crazy that that's what it clips for you.

Speaker 2:
[28:10] In my case, that just put me further into masking of like, I really felt like I would get kicked out if people realized I didn't belong. Of your college. I don't even know how to explain it. You know, but like, I used to have this dream, I mean, into my 30s where they had found out, they had found out that my high school diploma was not valid. And so everything else I did in my life was invalidated. And I was like back in high school as a 30 year old.

Speaker 3:
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Speaker 1:
[30:12] Life moves fast, but at the table, I really try to slow down. You guys know food is such a big love language in my family. It's not just about eating. It's about sitting together, talking, laughing, and actually being present. And honestly, that's why I love pasta nights. They're always my favorite. Lately, I've been obsessed with Barilla Al Bronzo pasta. And yes, that's Barilla Al Bronzo. It's made in Italy and created with sauce lovers in mind. The texture is so good. And it clings to every single drop of flavor, which is everything for me. So there's this Italian concept called scarpetta, which basically means soaking up every last bit of sauce. And that speaks straight to my soul. Because if I made the effort to cook and we're all sitting together at the table, you better believe we're savoring every single bite. To me, that's not just food. That's connection. My go-to right now is actually my mom's bolognese. You guys know Kris has been making this sauce forever. And when you pair it with Barilla Al Bronzo pasta, ugh, it is unreal. The pasta holds onto the sauce so perfectly. Every bite just hits. And that's the beauty of it. Whether you're in the mood for something rich and cozy or something lighter and veggie forward, it just works. So next time you're cooking, don't rush it. Make it a moment. Sit. Talk. Laugh. Soak up the sauce. Soak up the time together. You can find Barilla Al Bronzo pasta in the red bag at Select Retailers Nationwide. You can click on the link in the description to find a store near you. Did you go to therapy for any of this?

Speaker 2:
[32:11] Definitely not. I mean till later.

Speaker 1:
[32:15] It's crazy that as a young person who's essentially like you're alone on this island, you're concealing so much stuff and you're not lying, but you're just concealing it all because you don't know what else to do. You don't have your mom. You're with all these people that you don't fit in with. What was your outlet? Was it really just the knitting?

Speaker 2:
[32:38] It has always been art. But at the time, when I was that young, I majored in literature, so it was just reading books, writing.

Speaker 1:
[32:48] What does dating look like for you with all of the past trauma and you not feeling like you fit in? Was that something you were comfortable with or were you closed off in that regard?

Speaker 2:
[33:00] No. I was the opposite of closed off, which was that I was like, well, the one thing I know how to do is get a man's attention and keep a man's attention. I hate the word promiscuous because I think it's made up to critique women and it's stupid, but I would say as a young person, I was rather promiscuous. There's this other thing that I tell young people all the time, which is when someone tells you you're so mature for your age, they're not complimenting you, they're targeting you. So like in 18 years old in college at this chess party, 26-year-old PhD student comes over and becomes my first boyfriend. It's so hard because precocious maturity comes from trauma, generally, comes from growing up out of order. So it's hard to not hear it as a compliment because it's true. I was so mature for my age, I couldn't get along with kids my age because I didn't know how to be a kid, but I could get along with adults. I would talk about the background more openly with people that I dated. I was never the person that could just totally be closed off.

Speaker 1:
[34:13] Right.

Speaker 2:
[34:14] So those were some of the only people that I ever knew in the background.

Speaker 1:
[34:17] Because I'm also sure it affected you intimately.

Speaker 2:
[34:20] It also, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:21] Right. I would imagine.

Speaker 2:
[34:23] I have a lot of trauma related to sex. That was always something that came up and was really difficult.

Speaker 1:
[34:30] You're married and you have a daughter. Are you honest with your daughter about all the things you've been through?

Speaker 2:
[34:37] Yes. One thing that's interesting is it's, actually I've been married twice because I got married in college. It was very much what we call a one-one cult, just like an abusive controlling relationship that is part of why I joined the Army. And part of why I was able to get away from him was because I was in the Army.

Speaker 1:
[34:59] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[35:00] But I had a lot of my trauma triggered when I deployed back to, I get to Afghanistan, I'm on another compound surrounded by dangerous men, our men in this case. And a lot of that stuff came back up for me. And so I started, I think, dealing with it when I was 24, 25.

Speaker 1:
[35:22] While you were deployed?

Speaker 2:
[35:23] While I was deployed. And fortunately, had therapy and had people that understood it because I was so suicidal and dealing with a lot of stuff. So I was able to see our trauma therapists in the military. And I just got so lucky that the random person assigned to my unit had done their internship with women and children from cults. And so she had this idea of how she could help me.

Speaker 1:
[35:53] Cosmic.

Speaker 2:
[35:54] Yeah. But my husband was the first person that I met just as a friend. And I had decided to start talking about my background, so my current husband. So that was like such a different relationship from like, first let me get to know you and make sure you like me. And then after a while, probably because I'm having some trauma with sex, I'm going to explain to you a little bit about the background. But I was just completely open with him about it. And I have been also with my daughter, but obviously at an age-appropriate level.

Speaker 1:
[36:32] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[36:32] So it's a constant conversation. So right now she's 10 and the way she explains my life to her friends, she says, well, my mom just didn't have a good childhood. But then she goes, so she's made me the best childhood ever.

Speaker 1:
[36:50] Oh, well, doesn't that make you feel good? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[36:54] I mean, there's a very interesting part of being a parent that was re-triggering but also healing. You know? So it was actually when my daughter was about one years old that I was like, oh, I need to do more. I need to tell this story because I need all of this pain in my life to, I was like, I need to make my pain matter for some reason. Maybe it can help other people because otherwise I'm not going to stay around. And I have to because I have a kid.

Speaker 1:
[37:26] You have to stay around. Well, I was going to ask. So now, because you were so private about everything you went through, and you did feel at one point, okay, I'm going to get kicked out of the world. Do you think your daughter was the catalyst to you being like, you know what, this is my story. I need to do something good with all of this bad stuff. What made you now be so comfortable, and I don't know if you're that comfortable talking about this, but how it seems that you're comfortable sharing this, because it is really beautiful what you are doing.

Speaker 2:
[38:01] I mean, I think it started even before my daughter, and it started with my husband, who just unconditionally loves me. I don't think I'd ever really experienced that before. Don't have to perform, don't have to do anything. You know, recently, I had got off my anxiety meds for a little bit, and I was like, understood. You know, when you have an anxiety disorder, you don't know that until you get on meds, and then you realize what it was.

Speaker 1:
[38:33] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:34] So I had these two weeks where I was off waiting for the new prescription, and I was like, oh my gosh, how do you all live with me? Like, I'm so anxious. He just looks at me and he goes, hey, we'll take you any way we can get you.

Speaker 1:
[38:47] Oh, we love him.

Speaker 2:
[38:49] So fortunately, that I found a very good partner. But yeah, having my kid, I mean, my daughter was born, and she didn't breathe for seven minutes.

Speaker 1:
[39:05] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:
[39:06] And I remember lying there in the bed, you know, there's huge emergency, they're working on her. And my thought was like, of course, of course, I don't get to marry the prince and just live happily ever after. Like, of course, I'm going to lose my child. And that was, yeah, a moment that kind of like really stuck with me and made me realize like, yeah, I need to, I need to heal. I need to do something. And I didn't even realize how much until I wrote my memoir. And I was like, I'm going to tell my story. I have to start talking about this, otherwise it's going to kill me. I'm, you know, had struggled with suicidal ideology for a decade. Then your family freaks out when you write a memoir. So you have to, you know, really be strong about wanting to do it.

Speaker 1:
[40:01] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[40:02] But, you know, I had told myself for so many years, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. It wasn't that bad. I'm fine. Okay, it was that bad, but I'm fine. And then I've, I read my own book. And I was like, wow, that's so much.

Speaker 1:
[40:18] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:18] Okay, this lady needs therapy.

Speaker 1:
[40:20] It is so much.

Speaker 2:
[40:22] That is when I signed up for regular, all the time therapy.

Speaker 1:
[40:27] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:27] Which has definitely been a huge, huge factor.

Speaker 1:
[40:31] What does freedom mean to you now, whether it be from the cult, or I know you said so much was triggered joining the military for you. Do you have, like, what does life mean to you now in this current stage that you're in?

Speaker 2:
[40:47] You know, there was an interesting moment that I had. And it was after I wrote my first book, I finished my master's degree, and I did a whole semester studying situational identity theory, which is basically group identity. And I realized, I was like, oh, I never got to form a personal identity. And as soon as I was able to put that into words, I was like, oh, cool. You know, and I had a kid, so I'm watching a child, like from the ages of one to six, that's your job, is to develop a personal identity. And then again, as a teenager, you're supposed to be developing an individual identity separate from your family. And you have to go through that process. And it's called delayed adolescence when we have to do it. After cults. And it's very hard. And people in your life will call you a narcissist. But it is like, you know, I just had to be like, okay, what do I like? What do I want to do with my life? It's a funny question how you phrased it with freedom. Because when I got my book deal, which was like came with a nice advance. So it was the, okay, I'm going to get to do this for five more years. My first thought was, I'm going to wear whatever I want for the rest of my life. Actually, the knitting has really come full circle. I started designing my own clothes. I make these necklaces. I call them love bomb collars, and I take junk from thrift stores or people send them to me, and then I just add extra stuff to it. When I sell people the pattern, it also comes with a fact sheet on what love bombing is and how people can get you, and I have made you one.

Speaker 1:
[42:41] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[42:42] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:
[42:43] Thank you. Can I open it now? That's what these nails are for. Oh my gosh. This is so beautiful. These colors and the dragonfly.

Speaker 2:
[42:53] The dragonfly is a symbol of starting over.

Speaker 1:
[42:56] So what does love bombing mean in your details? Because I know-

Speaker 2:
[43:00] Love bombing is how you get, yeah, how you get drawn into a cult.

Speaker 1:
[43:04] And I've been in a one-on-one cult.

Speaker 2:
[43:07] One-on-one cult. It happens in single-family cults. But you are overwhelmed. So the Children of God, right? They would have all these beautiful young teenagers out on Huntington Beach and just walk up to you smiling and laughing and pull you in. So my grandfather joins the cult because one night he had a bad LSD trip where he met Satan. And so the next day, he's here in a park in LA with his head in his hands and wondering what to do with his life, I guess, as one does after they meet Satan. Yeah, I wouldn't want to meet Satan either. And up come these four bouncing, happy, smiling, guitar-playing young people that just want to tell him how much Jesus loves him and they love him. And off he goes. And that's how it started. And that's how it starts. And the important part about love bombing is there's a bait and switch, right? And even in the military, they do this with, when you go to a recruiter, it's all about you. It's all about what the army can do for you and how you're going to have this great career and it's going to be so great, blah, blah, blah. You can do anything you want. And then the first thing they tell you in basic training is, we don't care what your recruiter told you, you're ours now.

Speaker 1:
[44:19] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:
[44:20] All of a sudden, it's now needs of the army and you're not an individual anymore and you have to do what's good for the group. But because of the love bombing, you have this knowledge that it can be that good, that you can have that love and that perfection and that passion.

Speaker 1:
[44:37] It's really crazy, all of it, how convoluted it all is. Were you in contact with your mom at all when you were out of the cult? Would you still speak with her?

Speaker 2:
[44:50] One of the things that my mom did was she refused to shun me. She always let me call and talk and was never mean or bad about it.

Speaker 1:
[45:03] That's beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[45:04] Then she ended up leaving about a decade after me. It was because one of her children was very, very, very sick. Cults don't like medical care. They don't want you being in the establishment. First of all, it's too individual. Second of all, medical providers tend to wake people up from abusive relationships sometimes. My mom just took her kid, they were still in Mexico, got on a plane to Houston, and took her child to the hospital, and then called my dad who had the other five kids and was like, I'm not coming back, bring the kids. It's now been probably almost 20 years even for her, maybe 15 years. I think she and I did our deconstruction together, just talking about reading all these books about cults, and one of the things about cults is they're all the same. So if you read somebody else's cult story, you'll be able to notice the same patterns, like human beings control other human beings in the same way. One of the things I've realized that my purpose in life is to help us develop a language for the experience of growing up in cults and being in cults and what that's like.

Speaker 1:
[46:19] Is your mom so proud of you?

Speaker 2:
[46:21] My mom's pretty proud of me.

Speaker 1:
[46:23] How could she not be?

Speaker 2:
[46:25] I always say I don't know if she's prouder that I got a master's degree from Harvard, was a captain in the army, or that I built myself a business just knitting and talking to the Internet.

Speaker 1:
[46:34] I think she's equally proud of all three things. How could she not be? I mean, you are Teflon. Like you are crazy that this could all happen and you have such poise and grace and I know it's not easy, but the way that you're able to share your story with the world, it helps so many people and even people that aren't in a cult, I think just from a view standpoint, love bombing standpoint, one-on-one cult as you say. The guidance, the perspective, the light you're shining on that and the way that you perceive it and I'm like, like lights are going off in my head. I'm like, yeah, you're right. Like so many things. It's so, so, so courageous of you.

Speaker 2:
[47:21] Well, it's been interesting to me ever since I left the cult and started meeting other Americans. Because it was very clear to me that many Americans had experienced coercive control in one way or the other, but it just hadn't been named or identified. And, you know, I always say, I have the benefit of the extreme story. Like nobody argues that Children of God was a bad cult. So I don't have to define cults or defend or anything. And so I just tell my stories and then let other people, you know, I always say like, if you're hearing a story of the girl who grew up in one of the worst cults and you're relating, yes. Right. Let's dig into that. And it doesn't have to be always that extreme, you know, but like I call us, there's a generation of kids in America who weren't allowed to watch Harry Potter because we were in some kind of religion generally that our parents thought it was evil. And so there's this one piece of the culture that you weren't allowed to participate in. And like that experience of being held separate from your peers, that experience is the same regardless of like how extreme it was or like what the reasoning was. And that's the part I think that really fascinates me is like how we can all have these different experience. And I mean, colors of control doesn't just happen in cults. That's just the most extreme version that gets our attention.

Speaker 1:
[48:54] Right.

Speaker 2:
[48:55] And so my most recent book, The Culting of America, what I did was I was like, okay, I've built this 10-part definition of cults and I'm going to show it to you in real cults.

Speaker 1:
[49:05] Oh, I saw.

Speaker 2:
[49:06] And then in the military and then in regular society.

Speaker 1:
[49:09] Well, I am so, so grateful that you came and you were so vulnerable, so open, so transparent about everything. Thank you for being here. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[49:21] Thanks for having me.