transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] We've all heard about GLP-1s, and maybe you're wondering, how do I get it? Does my insurance cover it? That's why I love Roe, because Roe offers the lowest cost GLP-1s, whether you're using insurance or paying cash. And they have a newly approved pill. So if you're someone that would feel more comfortable taking a pill, they offer that as well. Go to Roe.co.slash Juicy Crimes to see if you're eligible for the new GLP-1 pill on Roe. That's Roe.co.slash Juicy Crimes to get started on Roe. Go to Roe.co.slash safety for box warning and full safety information about GLP-1 medications. You guys, I am loving Jones Road Beauty because all other products are really good for your skin. Every formula is packed with skin loving ingredients. It nourishes your skin instead of clogging or caking. And what I love is it looks so natural, like you're not wearing any makeup at all. Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our Juicy Scoopers are getting a free shimmer face oil on their first purchase when they use code JUICYCRIMES at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code JUICYCRIMES at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support Juicy Scoop and tell them Heather McDonald sent you. Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door and they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods, and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com. They have an incredible line of cannabis gummies and you can get 20% off your first order at mood.com with promo code JUICYCRIMES. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Mood's functional gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies because this is for a mind-soothing calm each night. It is one of their best sellers and I can see why. I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly, I need a good night's sleep. I have found this has really worked perfectly. Best of all, not only is every mood product backed by a $100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20 percent off their first order with code JUICYCRIMES. So head over to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for, and let mood help you discover your perfect mood. Don't forget to use promo code JUICYCRIMES when you check out to save 20 percent off your first order. Try it today at mood.com. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crimes. I have your favorite Juicy Crimes, Yellow Flower, Attorney at Law, my sister, Shannon McDonald Goldstein, and I am so excited about talking about this case with you, because it's like so up your alley. And I have so many questions for you. So welcome back to Juicy Crimes, Shannon.

Speaker 2:
[03:26] Thank you so much for having me back. It's been a minute and I really appreciate it. And this is a very interesting case. I'm very excited to talk about it.

Speaker 1:
[03:34] Well, when I first saw it and sent it to you, someone said, this looks good. And there's going to be a Netflix documentary on it. But what you found is that there was already a lot of history on it because it happened a few years ago. I think it kind of began around 2017. And it's just such an interesting case. And there's so many elements. So what I would like to do is you kind of introduce us to certain things, and then I am going to ask questions as we go. But let's get everyone to speed about who these people are and why it's so strange and juicy.

Speaker 2:
[04:10] Sure, of course. So this is the case of Lauren Kanarek, that starts with a K. Michael, I believe it's pronounced Barisone, Michael Barisone. This is actually a matter that happened in 2019. It involves horses, and in particularly this Olympic sport of dressage, which is kind of the prancing of the horses, if you are familiar with that. And there has been, obviously, this happened in 2019. So there has been some media on it. But the Netflix documentary is actually going to be coming out in about...

Speaker 1:
[04:43] I think it's like April 21 or something.

Speaker 2:
[04:45] April 21. So I think it's really important that we kind of talk about it now. I do think it's a very, very interesting case. Lauren is approximately 37 in 2019. She has been an equestrian and a dressage athlete for quite some time, and wants to train with the very best. So she finds herself doing a clinic at a place in New Jersey with a man by name of Michael Barisone, whose really his reputation precedes him. He was on the Olympic team. He's always been a fabulous dressage equestrian athlete. But in addition to that, he's known as being one of the best trainers. So if you really want to go the distance in this particular sport, you want to train with Michael Barisone. Apparently, Lauren knew that. So Lauren did this clinic. He immediately sees her talent. He goes, yes, why don't you interest two horses? Why don't you come to my training facility? He actually has two training facilities, but in this particular training facility is located in New Jersey. I believe it's called Hawthorne Hill. He says, please come. I welcome you. This is my fees, which is approximately $5,000 a month, and you can come and I see a lot of promise. So she comes and that's sometime around March. But immediately, and I'm not sure why the decision-making was done this way, but she has a fiancee, his name is Robert Goodwin, and they need a place to stay. Michael says, come in. I have a home. I live here. I live here with my other trainers, and I'm in a relationship with one of my trainers and her children, but there's an extra bedroom. Please live with us. There are other employees. Go ahead.

Speaker 1:
[06:31] Well, I just first want to just step for a second about what I thought was so interesting, that it's such like, being an equestrian is such a privileged kind of a sport. I mean, basketball, all you need is a hoop and a ball, so a lot of people can play it. But equestrians, you need an actual horse, and that horses are very expensive. So it's a very expensive sport to get into, a very privileged sport to get into. What I thought was interesting about this is that they made this an Olympic sport, this specific dressage, which is like the prancing, like you said, of the horses, and that someone who's 35 would actually have a chance to win an Olympic medal. I think that is so interesting. Remember when, I forgot the name of the actress' name, but all of a sudden she got into archery, she was really tall, and she got into archery and like went to the Olympics at like 45. What was her name?

Speaker 2:
[07:36] I know what you're talking about. I definitely think.

Speaker 1:
[07:38] Oh, she was in Thelma and Louise. She was the other girl in Thelma. It was Susan Sarandon and her.

Speaker 2:
[07:44] Gina. That's Gina's last name.

Speaker 1:
[07:46] Yeah. She got into archery way late in life and like literally went to the Olympics. I just think that's just such an unusual thing, a cool thing. Why not? It's never too late for anything. Yes, as I was watching and following up on this information on this case, I was like, well, I could see why he said stay at my house because he's still getting $5,000 a month for the training. He was like, well, this could go a long way with this actual person that actually might win because maybe it is such a niche thing and the competition isn't that tough. And I think that she had a family. You see the dad defending her the whole time. Maybe he just felt this could be in the end, a hundred grand for me over the years. And so we have the place and we all get along and she's got a boyfriend and I've got a girlfriend. So I really think to him, it wasn't that strange of an idea. Now, of course, everyone would say you really have to be careful. I mean, one of the things I'm obsessed with in crime is the squatter. And the squatter writes and people that stay at your house for a week and then they all of a sudden get one piece of mail sent to them. And now they immediately, at least in California, can say, I live here. I have squatter rights. I'm never going to leave. I mean, the horror stories in California of people, not just renting their house to someone, but inviting someone to stay for a month or your couchsurfing. And then they realize that a full grifter, now they then make their life so much hell that the actual owner has to leave. And so that's an interesting aspect that we can talk a little bit more about. But why don't you continue with the trajectory of the timeline?

Speaker 2:
[09:37] Sure. Well, I mean, I definitely think that he saw a lot of promise in her. And he was a trainer. I mean, he was a coach. This was his passion. So I don't think it was just about the paycheck. I think it was about training people to be Olympic medalists, really, quite frankly. And he had a lot of friends that were, that saw him as being the person that could take this to the next level. But I definitely agree. I think there's certain sports that you can do later in life. And I was a little taken aback by the age too. I was like, oh, 37, when she decided to do this? It was pretty clear. I think she got a horse when she was about 18 in high school. She started doing these amateur events. I'm not really sure exactly what her life was from 18 to 37. Fortunately, I'm sure that was addressed in the trial, but it really wasn't addressed in what I was able to find. So I'll be curious to see if Netflix does cover some of those issues, because as we go into it, you'll see what I'm talking about. So everything seems to be going pretty well, but somewhere along the line, she's very frustrated because she feels, I guess, that she's picked up her life and her fiance and everything, and she only wants to be trained by Michael. And Michael has a team. He has his girlfriend, who's also another trainer by the name of Mary Haskins-Gray, and he also has another trainer by the name of Justin Harden. So there's a team. And then there's employees too, that he also train and work with the horses. And I guess she really wanted his undivided attention, and she clearly was not getting it. She, and I think there was definitely an issue that she had with Mary, but I don't think it was an issue with romance, like I want to be with Michael Barisone. I think it really was, I don't want to be trained by Mary. I don't think she's what I signed up for. I don't know. And in addition, you're giving her attention because maybe the relationship, but just literally this is a woman who wanted his undivided attention.

Speaker 1:
[11:32] Well, I also understood it that there were other people, this one girl in particular that was also being trained by him, and she didn't like that he had other clients.

Speaker 2:
[11:42] I also picked up on, I was a little unclear, I think it was both. I think it was both an exclusivity.

Speaker 1:
[11:48] Yeah, I don't want the second person training me, and I want to be your only, not even your top dog, but your only, which it is interesting when you've been in that situation, where you come in and they're like, you're the best, you're the greatest, whether it's like a singing teacher or music teacher or whatever, and then all of a sudden, someone else comes and you're like, my God, why are they getting, I should be top dog? It's like, well, I never promised you that you'd be my only person. But there's something in your mind where, I don't know, there was a little bit, I can't pinpoint of when I have felt a little bit like that, but I feel like I have in my life, where I've been like, oh, okay, a shinier new thing comes and that's the star. I know what it was. It was the Miss Tarzana contest.

Speaker 2:
[12:46] I don't even know what to say. You thought that you're going to, did you have a little person that helped you prepare for it?

Speaker 1:
[12:51] No, it wasn't a little person. What happened was, I just graduated from college, from USC, and mom was friends with this guy. Everyone knew mom and dad, and his name was Ziggy. And Ziggy had a wife who was in charge of the Tarzana beauty pageant. And she calls up mom and she knows who I am or whatever, because mom's walking around bragging about us every chance she can get. And she's like, I think your daughter would be perfect for the Miss Tarzana pageant, which feeds into the Miss California pageant. It was a legit thing. And so mom gets all excited, you know, we've been watching pageants, whatever. And so then I meet with her and she is like, you're going to win. You're going to win. I'm going to make that your question, because there wasn't a talent, but I did all my impressions. I did my share impression, which by the way, Lisa Kudrow just did in the second episode of The Comeback. She's like, if I could turn back time. I mean, that's my share for her. So then I do my share impression. She goes, I'm going to give the question for you is going to be so that you can do the share impression because there isn't a talent portion, because it's the Miss USA version of Miss California. Anyway, I'm like thinking I'm going to win. And then at the last minute, this girl who was out to win a pageant, sought out and realized that there was no talent in Barisone and she was from Wisconsin, and she fucking flew and parked herself in the 818 and joined the pageant the last day. And then at that point, I realized that Ziggy's wife had turned all her attention to this girl.

Speaker 2:
[14:33] Did she win?

Speaker 1:
[14:34] She did.

Speaker 2:
[14:35] Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
[14:36] Okay. But I didn't react like this guy did to Lauren. Okay, so continue.

Speaker 2:
[14:41] We also-

Speaker 1:
[14:42] By the way, I never made it to the level where I get the question asked anyway.

Speaker 2:
[14:45] Right.

Speaker 1:
[14:46] I didn't make it to the top 10.

Speaker 2:
[14:47] But you did feel slighted, I think is the point of the story. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[14:50] I felt like you were telling me I'm the one. She's like, you're going to win. Without a doubt, you're going to win. So don't even worry about it. Then I see all these other people. Well, she had to fill the pageant though.

Speaker 2:
[15:00] Right.

Speaker 1:
[15:00] She had to fill the pageant. You had to have at least 20 girls who all then got a sponsor to pay for the room at the Woodland Hills Marriott. That shit doesn't come cheap. Right.

Speaker 2:
[15:11] No.

Speaker 1:
[15:11] Well, it's good to know that your career was- Everyone's like, Heather, we've heard your pageant story before. Shut the F up. Go on.

Speaker 2:
[15:17] It's also good to know that your career didn't hinge on winning Ms. Tarzana. So that's very nice.

Speaker 1:
[15:23] Life's rejection is God's protection. Moving on. Go.

Speaker 2:
[15:26] Correct.

Speaker 1:
[15:27] I know we've all heard about GLP-1s and maybe you're wondering, is it right for you? You've seen your friends get thinner, but you're like, how does this work? Maybe you've got a friend that has lost the weight, but is still on a low dosage to maintain that. It really stops the food noise and it's not a secret anymore. It has many, many benefits to wellness and just overall health. And you're probably wondering again, how do I get it? Does my insurance cover it? That's why I love Roe, because Roe offers the lowest cost GLP-1s, whether you're using insurance or paying cash. And they have a newly approved pill. So if you're someone that would feel more comfortable taking a pill, they offer that as well. After your first online visit, you are eligible for treatment. You can expect to start your medication in less than a week if paying cash, or about two weeks if using insurance. Go to roe.co.gov slash Juicy Crimes to see if you're eligible for the new GLP-1 pill on Roe. That's ro.co.gov slash Juicy Crimes to get started on Roe. Go to roe.co.gov slash Safety for box warning and full safety information about GLP-1 medications. You guys, I am loving Jones Road Beauty because all other products are really good for your skin. Every formula is packed with skin-loving ingredients. It nourishes your skin instead of clogging or caking. And what I love is it looks so natural. Like you're not wearing any makeup at all. It's my go-to all those mornings where I'm just like walking around my neighborhood or need to get a coffee and I look like I just had a facial. And I know I'm also doing something great for my skin. So I look natural and glowy. It's so good. And it's just really clean beauty, which is a no-brainer. And Jones Road doesn't just have their famous Miracle Balm, which is what I'm loving, but they've actually built a lineup of effortless skin-first staples. Like they're just enough tint and moisturizer, a lightweight formula that's smooth and even skin tone with a soft touch of coverage. So it hides the redness, it looks natural, and it feels like, again, nothing is on your skin. Modern-day makeup that's clean, strategic, and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our Juicy Scoopers are getting a free shimmer face oil on their first purchase when they use code JUICYCRIMES at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code JUICYCRIMES at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support Juicy Scoop and tell them Heather McDonald sent you. Did you know that there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door and they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to create gummies, baked goods and flour for whatever type of buzz you'd want. I'm talking about mood.com. They have an incredible line of cannabis gummies and you can get 20% off your first order at mood.com with promo code Juicy Crimes. So forget the one size fits all supplements that only get you high. Moods functional gummies are optimized to kick in, in as little as 15 minutes and take you to a mood that you're looking for. My favorite is Sleepy Time Advanced Gummies because this is for a mind soothing, calm each night. It is one of their best sellers and I can see why I just have some times when my mind just doesn't turn off or I'm stressed about something the next day. But most importantly, I need a good night's sleep and I have found this has really worked perfectly. Best of all, not only is every mood product backed by a $100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20 percent off their first order with code Juicy Crimes. So head over to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for, and let mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code Juicy Crimes when you check out to save 20 percent off your first order. Try it today at mood.com.

Speaker 2:
[19:41] So, Lauren is already starting to not be very happy. And so then it becomes sort of like, who's bullying who? I'm going to call that this kind of thing. So she starts to say that he's asking for money. He's not complying with what he probably suggested because I highly doubt there was anything in contract that said it was exclusivity. Things start to get a little tense and they get tense pretty quickly. Like she moves in like sometime in March after the clinic. And by June, July, I mean, things have really changed. She's claiming that he's bullying her and making her fearful and uncomfortable. And he of course is saying, this is not what I promised. This is very tense. I'm just doing my job. I don't know what's happening. And what she does is she takes it beyond that.

Speaker 1:
[20:35] I just want to say before you get into that, one of the bullying claims was that he was body shaming her. The girl was a double extra small. Well, maybe.

Speaker 2:
[20:45] You can be body shamed for being too small.

Speaker 1:
[20:48] Yeah, no, but I just don't believe that. For one, you do want to be smaller, just like a jockey. You don't see a lot of equestrians that are over 300 pounds, because you're on the horse. She was very petite in that sense, but proportioned, like she looks like an equestrian. She's got a little tiny waist, cute butt, she's wearing the cute outfits. I thought at one point that I would go on to be a late in life equestrian. I thought, I think I can do this. I like the outfits. I live out near where late in life equestrians are doing it. It's also very expensive. But I also have a fear of being a quadriplegic and like, I'll never get over Superman. So, Christopher Reeve. So I'm like, no, I'm not going to do it. But I do see why it's an appealing thing for an older rich woman who likes to wear leggings and boots, which I've always been a fan of. It's a really good look on anyone, really. It really is. It's a beautiful look. So I just don't believe the body shaming on that. I just don't believe it. I don't think you can tell her get smaller or get bigger. It just seems very weird. But then it could have been like a Blake Lively thing, where he literally just asked, how much does Blake weigh? Because I have to, in a romantic scene, pick her up for this thing and I have a bad back, and I just want to make sure I can maybe train. Then she got word and she was sensitive because she just had a fourth baby, and then she said, oh, he fat shamed me when that wasn't the case. So it could have been asking about her weight or inquiring about it specifically because your weight plays a role in this particular sport. So I don't know, but I thought that was weird.

Speaker 2:
[22:34] I think she wasn't getting what she thought she was supposed to be getting, what she was suggested or promised, okay? And I have a feeling this is not the first time. If I knew a little bit more history with this woman by the time she came in age 37, I highly doubt that she hasn't had difficult relationships or, I mean, she kind of explains herself as someone who is incredibly driven and therefore demanding of herself. I think she used a quote of saying, see as far, you know, see how far you can go. And then as soon as you get to that point, look farther. So those are the pushing, the driving, I will not give up. And so when she's really not getting her way, she starts to believe that her horses aren't being taken care of, which was part of the fee. She believes she goes so far as putting recorders in the stable so that the other younger people or older people that he's training, who are kind of working in the stables to take care of the horses, to kind of pay their fee. So there's sort of like an exchange. They notice them and I don't know what she's hoping to find, that they're either talking about her or that they actually are not feeding the horse properly. Then there's some evidence.

Speaker 1:
[23:47] I thought that was a ridiculous claim.

Speaker 2:
[23:49] Right.

Speaker 1:
[23:50] That she thought that people were trying to jeopardize her success by taking it out on not feeding the animals. I mean, there's nobody in the horse equestrian world that I believe, I mean, I'm sure there's some weirdo, right, that would purposely want to not feed the animal and their whole job is to care for the horses. Like, I just-

Speaker 2:
[24:14] They all love the horses.

Speaker 1:
[24:15] I was like, there's no way they're going to like not give, you know, Ed the amount of apples he's entitled to. Like there's just no way.

Speaker 2:
[24:23] Well, I think what's kind of from, you know, the source that I'm basing some of my statements from, what was really most troubling and most telling to me is that somewhere in the middle of this 48 hours, they say that Lauren refuses she'll talk about what happened on the day, but she won't, she'll just she'll talk about horses and she won't talk about her relationship with Mr. Barisone. Well, then how can you, if you're not going to talk about it, then you're not really telling your story. So, I think what comes out is you hear Michael's story and you also hear the people that know and love him and what they see, which includes all of his employees. I mean, it's telling when there isn't one person that he's employed or that he knows that believes that he would be doing anything improper or saying anything improper or treating someone improper, there's nothing. And if there is somebody on Lauren's side, unfortunately, she did not take advantage of being able to bring those people forward. So I don't know quite frankly what she's complaining about. Now, what they have is then she takes to social media. And like I said, this is a very short period of time. Pretty quickly, she's pretty frustrated. And her social media posts, which seem to be centered on a Facebook post, are kind of bizarre. She almost creates this sort of story that's like fantastical, like a prince and a queen and a king and-

Speaker 1:
[25:51] It's like a chess game.

Speaker 2:
[25:52] Yeah, like a chess game. But it reads like she's like, in this torture chamber that she can't get out of or something like that. So immediately, and then it becomes a little bit more specific and aggressive to Michael, saying all the things that he is actually doing, body shaming, bullying. But then it also uses, she calls him, she says he's a racist. She says he's homophobic, I believe. She says he's anti-Semitic. Really terrible things that are affecting his reputation in the community, which has really been almost perfect thus far. This is all happening when he's 58 years old. So I'm 58. By the time you're 58, you think I've worked hard, I've earned my reputation, this is my reputation. I can rely on it and I'm secure in my reputation. I still want to maintain it, but I don't have to go above and beyond who I've already become.

Speaker 1:
[26:50] Well, I think, let's just talk about that for a little bit. It's a very cruel thing to do, but I will also say I think it was even worse that it happened five, six years ago. I think more and more that power doesn't hold the power it held five or six years ago.

Speaker 2:
[27:12] That's interesting.

Speaker 1:
[27:13] Especially to someone who isn't savvy in the, this guy wasn't an influencer, he didn't have 100,000 followers, and he's being made aware of these horrific things. And I can imagine in the small community, there's probably some other small Facebook group or comments or something where people are chiming in and being like, I already, I always knew he was an asshole. We looked into hiring him. I'm just hypothetical. You know, he reads this, we were looking into hiring him. I heard this and I heard that. And he is feeling like there's no way to defend myself. This is so untrue. I don't know what to do. And it really, I mean, can F with your head. It's like, it's definitely like a version of gas lighting kind of a thing where someone knows what they're doing specifically in a way to make you lose it and go crazy and curl into a ball and not be productive in your life. And I think some people do it not realizing the power they have, but many, and I think she's one of them, do it thinking, this will fuck them up. What do you think?

Speaker 2:
[28:28] No, I agree. I mean, I think she, I don't think he had the, he wasn't built that way. I think, and he also says, he goes, I'm non-confrontational. Obviously she disputes that. She goes, oh, you know, he was confrontational. Some people are not built that way. Not only do they not know the social media, but they don't understand it. I think it did make him a bit of a shell of a man. I think what it did is he may, and I don't know, but he may have had a basis of some paranoia already. Maybe he might have suffered from panic attacks. This just took it to a whole other level. He did not know how to handle it. But she is cool as a cucumber and has no issue. Even admits, well, we should get to the, but there is one time where a post comes out, and I'm going to read this post because this post really hit me very hard. It says, in the post, it says, everyone should be worried. I'm not responsible for anything my other personalities do when they're threatened. So now, I'm like, so now he's saying, I don't even know who's in my house. I don't know who I'm taking care of. Is this like a civil situation or another personality?

Speaker 1:
[29:34] So while she's doing these posts, which she is not doing anonymously. No, it's not like a reddit anonymous big titty 542 or whatever. So he's like seeing her in the kitchen while she's writing these things.

Speaker 2:
[29:47] Yeah, I mean, apparently, and now eventually, and this is where I have some questions. She has a lot. It's just, I don't know, there's something about these posts that she has so much chutzpah, because what she literally says after that quote in the same post is, I need to protect all nine people. So she is including the other trainers, the dog, her boyfriend, everybody but Michael basically saying they're all, she's going to be protecting them. Now we find out later that they dispute that. But can you imagine if some things like that's put out? I think the way I read that entire post, because they don't really show you the entire post. I read it as the paranoia even grows because it's not just coming from her, but now maybe she's infiltrating people that are in his circle. And so that's how I read it.

Speaker 1:
[30:37] So that would even add to the paranoia, like you're poisoning all these people now, believe this and think I'm this bad person.

Speaker 2:
[30:44] Yeah, correct. So now he makes what I would call a not so great decision. He says that he tells her to leave numerous times and she refuses. She obviously denies that. She says he never asked her to leave. So she remains even though it's incredibly strained and awkward. So then he takes his girlfriend slash fiance, who's one of his trainers and her name is, I want to make sure I have my names right, Mary Haskins Gray and her two children or at least one child, because one child is at a summer camp but she has two children, and they leave their home and they live in the homes in the stables. So they're still on the same grounds, but they're going on the stables.

Speaker 1:
[31:30] Which again is my worst nightmare, is that you invite someone to your home and they are such nightmares that you have to leave your home and they're sitting in the home that you own being complete dicks to you.

Speaker 2:
[31:41] So now, I almost feel like by doing that, he gave her even more power, authority to continue to do what she's doing, and he's shaking in his boots and he's concerned about his girlfriend's child, but he's still somehow working. Now, I don't know if the other trainer was still in the house or if he moved. That's a question I had. Of course, the obvious thing is, have you called the police? Have you filed a restraining order? I mean, these are things that doesn't matter to the states. These are things that you should at least be doing. There's no mention of a restraining order ever being filed. There is mention though of a 911 call, one of four. But that 911 call, and I apologize, the first one is, I want to say July 31st. So, it's a while, quite frankly, because the incident that we're going to now talk about happened approximately seven days later.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[34:40] But when he does call 911, they come out, they make a report, they obviously give statements, and they kind of dismiss it as a landlord tenant case, which is always the worst, because it's like, well, there's nothing we can do.

Speaker 1:
[34:52] We can't arrest them. We don't know who owns the house. We're not realtors. We're cops. Was anyone hurt? No. Okay. We suggest you go to court and file your complaint. That's one of those things.

Speaker 2:
[35:06] It's kind of interesting too that when you hear from, after the fact you hear from Mary, but you do hear from some of the employees and some of these other people, if she's really harassing not just him, but everybody making their job super difficult, I'm a little surprised that nobody either convinced him to file it or filed it against themselves. I certainly think Mary could have filed it against herself. That's unfortunate because then what happens about a week later, they get a visit at the stables by CPS, by a CPS worker on August 7th, so about a week later.

Speaker 1:
[35:44] Michael and the girlfriend.

Speaker 2:
[35:46] Now, at this point in time, obviously when CPS comes to visit, they are concerned that children are at risk. That's the main reason they come. Why would they come? Well, apparently in Jersey, there is basically almost a sexual abuse type of thing. There's a sexual abuse, it's called, I think it's called...

Speaker 1:
[36:10] Sportsafe.

Speaker 2:
[36:11] Thank you. Sportsafe.

Speaker 1:
[36:13] It's like a charity type of thing that started. If you're concerned about anything happening with children in the sports world, this is where you could go first and then they will help you get to the right authorities. That's the way I understood it.

Speaker 2:
[36:29] Right. Honestly, it's easy because people can do it. They always can do it anonymously, so people can actually reach out to almost a third source. Unlike in California, you would have to call the CPS office. You could do it anonymously, but you have to call the CPS office. This way, you can just go online, fill out a form, answer the questions. It's interesting because in it, she really just says more about the bullying toward her, body shaming. But there's one question that says, are you contacting us because you believe that there's abuse, physical or sexual, that involves children? And she answers, yes. And that's going to be an immediate red flag for any Department of Social Services. So they send somebody out there, and this is kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back is the way it's said. He now believes that it becomes true that she did in fact is the one that did report this. So now he believes that he's being accused of something that's going to affect his love of his life and her children, okay?

Speaker 1:
[37:35] And also just being accused of the worst thing on earth.

Speaker 2:
[37:38] Correct. And it's a little unclear as to whether the accusation was specific as to sexual abuse. I'll be honest with you. I don't know. But I will tell you that it certainly was the way that he interpreted it, okay? So at that particular point in time, what is told has happened is he looks as they're even still be on the, and they're discussing. He just goes, he gives his girlfriend a kiss, and he goes to this back room, and he grabs a gun, and he goes to the house, and he doesn't really try, just kind of opens the door, and he just shoots her. Two shots. I don't even know if there was a big discussion or anything like that, but there's two shots, and she does call 911, and she does sound like she's conscious and all that good stuff, but she's very, very seriously injured. And I believe the boyfriend is there, and he tries to tackle him. They call 911. There's a police officer. There's witnesses that he did this. There's a gun. There is a statement that he makes at the time saying, I had a device, which I'm assuming means a gun, and he is arrested. And she's taken to the hospital, and apparently it's much worse than anybody initially thought, and she's almost, you know, I think she's in the hospital.

Speaker 1:
[38:57] So she's put in a coma for her safety.

Speaker 2:
[38:59] Three to four weeks, there's huge, they had to kind of cut open her, excuse me, her stomach or something. Anyway, so almost the injuries, to save her, are worse than the injuries that were actually committed by shooting, by him shooting her.

Speaker 1:
[39:15] So, but anyway, let me just go back one more thing. I really think the calling of CPS or lying about something like that, it's something that Tim Boosie, what's his name, the one who is married to Melissa Gilbert. Correct. In that particular case, they're saying that he never touched these twin boys inappropriately when they were actors on his set, he was the director and that this is all because the parents are so mad that the twin boys were recast. I understand they wanted to keep the child of a certain age, it wasn't a huge part and maybe the boys were starting to look older, so they just recast him with one child, I think that was younger but old enough to work the hours, something like that. He thinks that they're lying about or this is what they're claiming, they're lying about it. I think that it can happen. I do think people lie about things like that and it is a really weird, sick revenge thing that we've seen happen in crimes, mostly with women against women, like a woman against a woman sometimes where I'm going to get you and I'm going to say you're mistreating your kids and I'm going to lie or whatever. Because anyone knows that even if you're found innocent, it can really fuck you up. Just to even have the claim, even to have the claim and then depending on how, well, some CPS officers ignore people for years, like Poor Little Angel, that documentary. But other times, maybe your child will be taken away and now you're alone in your house and you've lost your kids and then to also be the quote unquote stepdad, which is usually the perpetrator in the family that might be abusive. So this woman brought in this man and she didn't, you know. So I could, so I do think it was, you know, a very bad situation for him to be faced with and he wasn't in the, this crazy bitch. Now this, we will get through this. We've got to get her evicted. We have to get the right, you know, attorneys involved. Maybe I'll sue her for harassment later. He wasn't in that mindset. He was in, you're setting out to ruin my life and you're there.

Speaker 2:
[41:32] Right. No, he clearly thought it was all about him. No, he thought it was clearly about him. I do believe that people can call Department of Social Services with incorrect allegations, whether it's revengeful or whether they're just incorrect. And that's why the department is obligated to investigate it. And as we find out later, there is no evidence. There's no evidence against Mary. There's no evidence against him. But the damage is done. And you also, you mentioned like detention. If that the kids were there and the kids were detained from mom and obviously him, it would have been a situation where the burden is extremely low. So even for a temporary period of time, that might have happened. So the damage is done and it's hard to recover from that damage, you know, in those particular cases. I'm not speaking for all cases. I'm talking about these types of cases where allegations...

Speaker 1:
[42:21] No, I do remember in this though that he said the daughter, who was part of this interview, still very fond of... No, no, no, sorry, that wasn't the daughter, nevermind. The daughter was at the summer camp or one of the kids at the summer camp. The boy that was living with him and his fiance, when this started to get heated, they had already said, why don't you go spend some time with your biological dad?

Speaker 2:
[42:43] That was very traumatizing to have to even do that. But they did the right thing. I mean, in that world, that is exactly what I would advise my client to do. Take the child out of a situation that is potentially harmful and putting them in harm because it was so strained between these two parties.

Speaker 1:
[43:01] So get back to the crime. So he literally tried to kill her, shot her twice.

Speaker 2:
[43:06] Yeah, and he's charged with attempted murder. It is attempted murder. I mean, I don't think it was overcharged. I mean, he shot her two times in the chest. She's lucky to be alive. That's what the evidence seems to be presenting. So he's obviously taken into jail. I believe he's in jail for almost two and a half hours preparing for this case. There are probably very good attorneys on all sides, but they have... He hires this attorney who comes up with a very risky defense. And he comes... And the defense is the defense of temporary insanity. Not very winnable, doesn't happen very often. Lots to prove, obviously, like self-defense puts the burden on the defense, it's a burden of preponderance of the evidence, to basically show that because of some mental defect or... You know, basically a mental defect is that he simply did not know at the time the crime was happening, what he was doing, that it was a crime, and or that it was wrong. Okay? And he is, from the beginning of time, his defense or what he always says is, I don't remember anything. I remember CPS coming and that's all I remember. That's the last thing I remember, which a lot of people would say, well, that's convenient, right? I just don't remember anything of the crime. So what's interesting is, whenever you put a defense like this, a psychological defense, the evidence you have to do is to show either history of a mental defect or delusion or et cetera, and or a psychiatrist has to evaluate to see what may in fact have happened. So they hire a psychiatrist, the psychiatrist puts on evidence that he believes all of the social media, just the constant mirage of just terrible posts and accusations that ultimately resulted in CPS basically broke his brain and his mind and he became just a shell of a man. Okay, that even at that time of that incident, he was not who he was months earlier. So that's the mental disease and defect and that at the time, he did not know what he was doing and he was so broken down by that mental disease or defect. The prosecution obviously has to refute that. So the prosecution gets their own experts and that expert says, well, interestingly enough, the only thing he doesn't remember, he remembers all the barrage, all the social media, everything he went through, all the stuff that he tried to do up until the last accusation, but he doesn't remember the actual crime. Okay. Good point. So but there, what was interesting is when he shot her, he was immediately attacked by the boyfriend, understandably. Clobbered on the head, totally was either unconscious, you see a picture of him, really beat up and that could be brain trauma that could compound what was already a mental disease and defect. Kind of brilliant, but definitely a big chance to take that, right? So the verdict, but when they have her on the stand.

Speaker 1:
[46:15] First, let me just go back a little bit. One thing that I thought was really interesting when they're going for this, he was innocent by reason of insanity, temporary insanity, of basically snapped. It's like the show snapped. You were not crazy before. The circumstances caused you to act out of character and act insane, and then he doesn't remember it. So then they said, and here he is looking like a shell of himself. They go back to showing him with the horses and his face is full, and he's smiling in his color. Now he's gray, his skin is gray, his hair is gray and falling out. He has a disheveled beard about him. And that is what I always find so interesting when I talk to you about when you've had to defend people, what it is, and when we've done these crimes about a woman on trial for being a vixen and having men kill her husband or whatever it is. And I've said, you know, now isn't that interesting that, you know, she now looks all mousy and the lips have fortunately been deflated because she couldn't get a good injector in behind bars and why that is good. You don't want them looking too good, you know. And in this particular case, you know, in other cases where maybe it's an accused gang member of killing somebody, they get him a nice suit and tie. They try to get the collar to cover his neck tattoo. They shave him, you know, they make sure you're shaved, your fingernails are clean, that you look like this, you know, let this guy out, he could be, you know, having a beautiful life or he isn't a bad person or whatever. And, you know, the Menendez brothers wearing sweaters at 27 to look a little younger, you know, in the second trial. I thought, yeah, they probably was like, look like shit. Don't even go out for an hour a day to get sunlight. Look like shit, look crazy, whether they told him or not. But he was, you know, I think they specifically said, yeah, don't shave, don't shave. Well, gray hair and gray facial hair makes you look like a sad sack. And he was acting kind of insane in the courtroom where his hands on his head.

Speaker 2:
[48:35] You know where he wasn't acting insane?

Speaker 1:
[48:37] Right after.

Speaker 2:
[48:37] A few hours later, he got the verdict when he was talking.

Speaker 1:
[48:40] So tell the verdict, let's get to the verdict.

Speaker 2:
[48:42] Okay, so he is a key and this is how it is. He's acquitted by reason of temporary insanity. So what does that mean? That means that he has found that based on that rule, disease and defect and that he did not know what he was doing, that they were able to prove that by preponderance the evidence, not saying that the event didn't happen. You can't contest the fact that the event did not happen. It's just that he is not responsible for that event and he is acquitted. So, what does that mean? Does he get out? No, he goes to a psychiatric hospital and how long is he in that psychiatric hospital? He is in that psychiatric hospital until after sufficient treatment and testing, a board determines that he is safe in society.

Speaker 1:
[49:30] Well, I just want to stop for a second. I also thought that was great work on the prosecutor, though it didn't work to say, yeah, the head trauma could have stopped where people say, I only remember, some people say, I don't remember the car accident, I don't remember the thing because I had trauma. When I fainted on my head, I remembered everything up until the point of fainting. But if I didn't, that would go along with this. If I was like, well, I remember saying, how's everyone doing tonight? Then I don't remember anything. It's almost like that. Just like a five minutes before it happening, it's like where you don't remember it. I do think something like this is just a really subjective thing no matter what kind of doctor you are, because it's the brain and it's not like, well, if you break your leg here, you're going to need a cast for six months. Every orthopedic surgeon would agree, okay, you know what I mean? It's like a medical thing that is, I think, quite subjective.

Speaker 2:
[50:35] It was the defense argument to say that he didn't remember to refute the prosecution's argument, which I thought was good, was, isn't it convenient that the only thing that he doesn't remember is the crime? Because look, when you're dealing with defenses of temporary insanity or permanent insanity or mitigation on what the defendant is going to say, a lot of it is, is this manipulated? When the forensic psychiatrist or psychologist comes in and interviews you, one of the first things they say is, is this guy an expert manipulator? Is he a piece of shit, bullshit because he's a defendant? Or is there really possibly a mental disease or defect that happened here that really caused him to grow to this point? Their argument was this social media slash real and in-live person, slowly chipping out down that this man broke him down, broke him down, caused that effect. A lot of times, and I agree when you say like somewhat subjective, you're following the law and I'm telling you what the law is, but this victim, this woman, this is not a likable witness. No.

Speaker 1:
[51:43] I think everybody was like, I think that when the jury got behind, they were just like, I'd fucking want to shoot her too. And because she lived, you know, I always say that too, it's always interesting that like attempted murder, you know, will carry such a lighter sentence. I'm like, well, so just because you weren't successful, I mean.

Speaker 2:
[52:00] No, she was facing up to 80 years. This is very, very, very, very serious. I mean, not as serious as, you know, life without the possibility of parole, which is what murder.

Speaker 1:
[52:08] For a jury that is, you know, spec is, couldn't talking about it behind doors after watching it. Seeing her, she didn't roll up in a wheelchair. You know, yes, we saw photos of her, you know, obviously in a lot of distress and pain and lost a period of her life by having to recover. She can still ride horses. She still looks good in the riding pants. She still looks good. You know, it's not like, you know, Mary Jo Budafuoco whose face was off for the rest of her life. You know what I mean? I think all of that plays into, it does, deciding that yes, she is a victim, but she was a fucking bitch. And it wasn't that bad in the end. And everyone's, on the other hand, like you said, saying such exemplatory things about the way he'd lived his life up to this point.

Speaker 2:
[52:55] Right.

Speaker 1:
[52:55] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[52:56] No, and I, and you know, she, you know, she admits on the stand, I am, yeah, I wanted to destroy his life someday because he really pissed me off.

Speaker 1:
[53:07] When they did December, they find that other thing that said that her plan was working, that it was absolutely a calculated plan to get it, that he had no career in the end.

Speaker 2:
[53:17] And she admits it on the stand, does not deny it, shows zero remorse. She's the victim, not him, you know, probably was told, you know, and I agree if I was a prosecutor, I would say, look, as bad as this is, as bad as she treated him or, you know, on social media, she, that doesn't mean that she deserved to be shot twice and almost killed. I mean, but other than that, what do you have? And, but I, at the same time, I agree that the defense had to really think creatively, really do some, you know, legal, you know, somersaults is what we kind of call, to allow the jury to make this verdict still, and was still withstand the, you know, what the law is. So I think everybody, you know, did the best they could in the circumstances, I understand. But what's interesting now, since this has happened, there's a couple of things that I find interesting. Well, we do call this temporary insanity, and I will tell you that he was convicted in 2022, I'm not sure of the month. By the beginning of 2023, he was allowed to live in a private home, not the hospital. By 8, 2024, he was allowed to go home to Florida and New Jersey, but not other states. By February of 2025, really the only conditions he has on himself is a stay away order to both her and the boyfriend. Normally though, when you're talking about a defense like that, the insanity might last longer. Look, I don't think his life is-

Speaker 1:
[54:57] Also, he got a girlfriend. So, one of his former clients and her daughter were being interviewed and speaking highly of him. And I remember thinking right away, oh, I bet she's his girlfriend now. I guessed it halfway through. And of course, he broke up with the woman that he was living with. But when she took the stand, she still spoke highly of him and said that he had a great relationship with her children and all of that. But who would ever want to be around a guy that does that with a gun? Again, you and I are not- He's in jail.

Speaker 2:
[55:36] He's in jail for two and a half years. But also, she doesn't know what's going to happen, so she has to move on with her life.

Speaker 1:
[55:41] And of course, I would never trust someone around me that can snap like that or my kids. I'd be like, I don't care if you're the most. And then that's where guns come into play, you know, in that you and I are not gun people. We don't own guns. We're not familiar with how guns work. I mean, we couldn't, I couldn't pick one up right now and know how to shoot it. However, it is that finality of a gun that like, even if he was just so pissed and he ran over there and he punched her and then the boyfriend came and they rustled on the, you know, then they would just been on like a weird assault thing. Wouldn't have been an attempted murder, like, you know, that type of thing. But because you have a gun, you know, could cause such amazing damage. But so of course, he gets the girlfriend.

Speaker 2:
[56:27] Right. And they're still together. I think she's now a fiance, just FYI, because now what's happening, and I'm sorry, I'm going to let you continue. I interrupt you. No, no.

Speaker 1:
[56:36] I want to hear what you think. Tell us what's happening now. And then I'm going to give my prediction of what I think the Netflix doc is going to focus on. So go finish what we were to say.

Speaker 2:
[56:46] Okay. So well, now we do have this Netflix doc. And I'm going to, there are, there's been obviously some buzz. She's already disapproving, although we haven't seen it yet.

Speaker 1:
[56:58] Lauren is.

Speaker 2:
[56:59] Lauren and of what the Netflix doc is about. She writes a letter to TMZ. This is what, of course TMZ puts it out. She doesn't try to go through a lawyer, even though her dad's a lawyer or retired lawyer. She's putting it out in the media and she's really concentrating on the fact that this is not the story, that it should be stated here and goes back into her injuries. I guess in trial, in trial we have these things called motions and limine, and what they are is what is allowed in trial. There's always more evidence that's actually present, but some are all for different reasons, prejudicial or whatever, may not come in, okay? So what I'm hearing is that certain pictures were not brought in, like maybe her extensive injury pictures were not brought in, which could, because maybe more of her, she had to have a bunch of surgeries to maybe correct the actual injury at the time, but his injuries when he was beaten up were shown, so that could have been viewed differently. And also, I'm basically told that there were a lot more texts, a lot more social media posts than what was presented to this jury.

Speaker 1:
[58:11] And I think that would make her even look worse.

Speaker 2:
[58:13] Correct. So she's not happy.

Speaker 1:
[58:17] So my prediction was that the doc will definitely focus more on her life before she met the trainer, before she met Michael, which I would love to hear about. We're going to hear about some ex-husband, we're going to hear about some college roommate, we're going to hear about when she worked at some place, we're going to hear about all the other weird shit she's done when she thinks she's being crossed. We're going to hear that how she was such a little princess. I don't know if she's the only child, but if she has siblings, they're probably going to be like, yeah, she was the fucking princess of the house. It's going to be a lot of that. The people getting the paycheck to do this or whatever, are definitely Michael and his current girlfriend, and in trying to rebuild his career and his life. And that's what it is. A documentary is not, can absolutely be biased. Of course. It absolutely can be portrayed one way. It actually can even be done in a way that someone is setting out to do a lawsuit later. I don't know, he might even be gearing up to sue her for this. Who knows? And then this would help it, because laying it all out and millions, millions, millions of people will see it just like they did the Menendez brothers and feel that justice was not served or whatever. So that's what I think we're going to see.

Speaker 2:
[59:53] Right. No, I think we're definitely going to get a lot more details that we never got before. I definitely think the fiancee and Michael are involved in this willingly and want to be. So I'm not sure. I think I know where this is leaning. I think I know where it was leaning in like 2022, but it'll be curious to see what she is able to add. Maybe she's able to finally say things that actually have some bearing that help her, you know, or worse since 2022 or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[60:20] Maybe she fucking got weird on Reddit or something. She got weird with somebody else. It'd be interesting to see if like she still might be, you know, typing away, being a little baby reindeer somewhere and just trying to destroy someone else's life. Because I'm sure with a documentary team, they can find everything.

Speaker 2:
[60:39] Well, in 19, she was 37 in 2019. I believe when the verdict came down, she was, it was 2022. So what would that be? 40, 41. And so now we're four more years. So she's now 45, right?

Speaker 1:
[60:53] Is she coming to LA in 28 to prance around on the horse or what's going to?

Speaker 2:
[60:57] I mean, I hope we hear a little bit more about that because I don't really, other than the fact that she's not happy with the way the doc was portrayed, the big, and the reason why people are talking about it now before it's come out, is because she's saying a lot about how she's been traumatized three times. The first time was obviously when she was shot. The second time was when she was acquitted. And the third time-

Speaker 1:
[61:20] When he was acquitted.

Speaker 2:
[61:21] When he was acquitted, I'm sorry. When he was acquitted, and obviously that's not a verdict she wanted. And the third time is the streaming of the Netflix. But if you really wanted to say that, I would say that this is- I mean, if she really wanted to make an argument, she'd say, I haven't- I've been screwed every single time because for the last three or four years, you know, he's out. He's out. He's living his life and I've been traumatized by this. But this is also the story of karma. I mean, it's karma.

Speaker 1:
[61:50] It's very interesting. But, you know, yeah, you did bring this on yourself to an extent. And it is interesting, though, with these crimes that are juicy, you know, rich people, horses, you know, the ones that the datelines of the Forte Anna Mystery, the ones that the documentarians then see that and say, this could be more, this got, you know, a 12-page article written about in the New York Times. It is sad for those people that are victims of those high-profile crimes, whether they're a parent of the victim, who's maybe passed or they themselves are victims, because it does have to keep, it is reliving and reliving. We talk about like OJ's kids, you know?

Speaker 2:
[62:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[62:33] You think it's over with, and then there's a new Ryan Murphy thing, and then you think it's over with because your dad died, and then, you know, someone else is like, well, now let's tell the real truth. You're like, oh my god, you know, and it's just, so, but in her case, yeah, this is a different thing than that because we all realize she's a bitch.

Speaker 2:
[62:53] Let me ask you a question because you're more versed in like streaming and Netflix and why these documentaries ever come out. Why now? I mean, the only reason I can think that it's coming out now is because somebody reached out to her or she reached out to Netflix.

Speaker 1:
[63:08] That's why I can't think she didn't read out to Netflix. No, the guy that got off and his girlfriend.

Speaker 2:
[63:14] I don't know. That's what I'm... Or they were approached. Why now?

Speaker 1:
[63:17] Probably just because... Listen, they know that these docs do well. And I'll be honest, I think some of these docs are too long and they're getting too lazy. And, you know, we saw one recently. And it was the Mora one. Mariah, Mariah, the cyclist who was caught in the love triangle and sadly murdered.

Speaker 2:
[63:39] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[63:40] And I actually don't think it was done very well. Like, I'm like, they're, you know, same pictures over and over again. I'm like, go find some other photos. Or even with someone who's older. I get it. They're older. Maybe they're not taking a million selfies at Coachella. But like, find a few other photos. Find a couple other shots to fly the drone. Like, just sometimes I just think, I think that they're easy to sell. I don't think Netflix has to pay that much for it. And then they've got buzz for a week. Every time there's a new crime doc that's happening, somebody joins Netflix that maybe hasn't joined before to watch it. And, I mean, I always said, you know, we'd go watch the Oscars years ago with little kids, and they'd be like, and for the short, for the documentary, and I'd be like, where do you watch these? Where do you want, like, when we were young, where would I watch this documentary? Where, what weird artsy fartsy, you know, theater do I have to go to as a 12-year-old?

Speaker 2:
[64:43] Do you remember LaMoure Theater in Encino?

Speaker 1:
[64:45] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[64:45] That's where you would watch the documentaries.

Speaker 1:
[64:47] Right, and so, and then it's like, well, now there's just so many.

Speaker 2:
[64:50] You're in-dated.

Speaker 1:
[64:51] Yeah. And you can just see it and watch it. And when that one of Mariah started, I thought, I didn't recognize the name. And the minute they said she'd like to cycle, I was like, oh shit, I know this one. I just wanted to watch something fresh and new. You know everyone. But this one I didn't. This one I did not know. And I think it's really fascinating. So I'm excited now to watch what they do with a story I know a lot about, that I also watched the 48-hour mystery on like how much more do they give us, what's happened since. And I thought, you know, this was a great one to talk to you about just the legal aspect of it.

Speaker 2:
[65:28] Right.

Speaker 1:
[65:29] So, Yellow Flower, thank you so much. Everyone's missed you.

Speaker 2:
[65:33] I missed everyone. I took a great vacation though, so that was nice, but I miss everyone.

Speaker 1:
[65:39] And so, Shannon, tell everybody where they can find you and any legal needs they might have for you or your husband Michael Goldstein.

Speaker 2:
[65:48] I am on Instagram and also it's michaelgoldstein.net, and you can easily reach me through him. And just my name, my Instagram, and you can also find my name on just any internet, our website, etc.

Speaker 3:
[66:04] Okay, great.

Speaker 1:
[66:05] Thanks, Shannon. Love you, bye.