transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Hi, I'm Lo Bosworth Natale, and I'm a first-time mom. Over the last decade, I have built wellness products for millions of women at my company, Love Wellness. But nothing has rocked my world, quite like having our miracle baby, like not even close. This is Tell Me I'm a Good Mom, a show about navigating modern motherhood in a culture that tracks our kids, but frankly, sidelines us. And I think it's time motherhood got a rebrand. Let's get into it. Everyone, welcome. This is your brand new episode of Tell Me I'm a Good Mom. And if you are new to the show, please follow, subscribe, wherever you're listening or watching. I so appreciate the community that we are building here. Leave me a comment. Let me know what you think. Let's jump into today's episode. It is a good one and it's one that's very personal for me, given my birth story and where I am currently at. So our guest today is Meaghan O'Connell. She spent years as a senior editor at Romper, where she commissioned and edited a national magazine award-winning package on C-sections. And she also wrote a book that you have probably heard of. And she needed this book when she became a mother. It didn't exist back then. It's called And Now We Have Everything on Motherhood Before I Was Ready. And it was named one of the best books of 2018 by NPR. And it's brutally honest. It is an agenda-free account of what becoming a mother actually does to you. No silver lining forced upon it. No advice. I actually think that Meaghan paved the way for a show like this one. She was writing then what we are only now starting to really talk about more openly. So, welcome, Meaghan. Hi, I'm so glad you're here.

Speaker 2:
[01:59] I'm so glad you're doing this.

Speaker 1:
[02:01] We are matching in our blue outfits today. I love it. If you're watching the episode, Meaghan and I are matching everybody. So I really want to start with kind of what I just really touched on is that we're really just starting to have these conversations openly. And so, what is the thing you still haven't seen anyone say out loud about becoming a mom?

Speaker 2:
[02:26] I'm about to go back to school to become a therapist. And I was just reading some psychoanalytic theory from 1950. And Winnicott, he's the guy that talked about, like, you just have to be the good enough mother. But he was like, there's so many reasons for moms to hate their baby. And I was like, whoa. And he listed, like, 18 reasons. And in some ways, I was like, this guy is ahead of where we are now on, like, the internet. But just that, you know, this baby comes along and is now dictating your life. I just remember feeling so overwhelmed. Even the love felt like a trap in a way, you know, it just comes and changes everything. And I just, I do think that is a taboo. I don't want to say I ever hated my baby, but of course there's...

Speaker 1:
[03:14] What do you mean by that? That like the love is a trap? Double click on that for me, because I don't know what you mean, and I want you to tell me what you mean.

Speaker 2:
[03:23] I just remember like with the new baby, there's part of me that wanted to like run out of the house, you know, and like perhaps never come back. But then you leave the house and then you're like, oh, missing the baby and worrying about the baby, and maybe your boobs are filling up with milk if you're breastfeeding and you realize like now I've crossed this like Rubicon and I love this little potato more than myself and more than I knew, you know. And in some ways, it's just like you're never going to not be worried again.

Speaker 1:
[04:00] You know, it's interesting. I was talking to my brother about having a new baby because he's a dad of two now. Him and his wife had their second child just a couple weeks after I had my first, my daughter. And I said, Chris, like, when do you like, when does this start to feel less surreal? Like when does the baby feel real to you? Like a person, like more than just like that little potato that you just mentioned. And he was like, you know, it takes like a year, it takes like a year and a half for you to really understand and like recognize that this is a, this is a little person. And that really resonated with me because I think that there are so many things that still go unsaid. And I think that these conversations are so important. And the things that go unsaid don't always have to be bad, per se, right? They can be like just curiosities to a certain degree. I think it's really an interesting piece of like the human condition, us, you know, making babies and then like raising them and figuring out who they are, they figure out who they are. You know, I think one of the conversations I have also seen online in recent years is that some of the content about pregnancy and motherhood scares moms to be. And you wrote something, I think, about this. I think you said, what if instead of worrying about scaring pregnant women, people told them the truth, what if pregnant women were treated like thinking adults? And when you wrote that, were you scared? Because that is a really radical thing to say, I think, at the time when you wrote it. And yes, even the conversation we're having right now feels different than I think back then. But what do you think about that? Do you think things have actually changed from when you first were writing your tiny letter and your book?

Speaker 2:
[06:05] In some, you know, like, I'm a different person. I feel like I would write a completely different book if I wrote about that time now.

Speaker 1:
[06:12] Really?

Speaker 2:
[06:13] Yeah. But in some ways it wouldn't be as, you know, close to the bone. I think I, you know, like now I'm like, well, we shouldn't scare pregnant people. But at the time, to me, and like, I'm an anxious person, but the idea that a friend would be holding back not telling me what her experience was because she didn't want to make me feel bad, it's like my nightmare. Like I want to know, it doesn't mean it's going to happen to you. You know, I tell like pregnant people, I'm like, your birth story will probably be better than mine. You know, it's just, it doesn't mean it's going to happen to you. It doesn't, but I think to me, it's comforting to know like all these possible things. And hopefully you have a better experience, but if you don't, you'll be like, oh, I'm not the only person that, you know, had a c-section and they didn't want to. Like this is one of the things that can happen, and it's not the end of the world. I think women are capable of their doctors say, you know, just, I want to know what the doctor knows. You know, like I want to have the conversation about risk and reward and, you know, I want, I don't want them to be like patronizing, I guess. I don't know. There's something. And then that makes me more scared, I think, as an anxious person. I'm like, what are you not telling me?

Speaker 1:
[07:34] As a fellow anxious person, I think we try to problem solve for the future, right? Anxiety is all about just living in the future and not about living in the present. And so you try to, you know, like check every box that you possibly can. And when I was pregnant, I think I was very similar. I was constantly seeking information, seeking anecdotes, seeking stories. But this is something that I actually like want to push you on, because I think that you and I kind of feel the same way about it. And like, I'm pretty sure that you feel and say that if somebody had told you the truth, you would have been more prepared. But I'm not really sure that I agree with that. I think that there are things that are so physically and emotionally overwhelming that you just genuinely cannot understand them until you have lived them. So even if you tell me what's coming, even if we check all the boxes mentally and we buy all the stuff and we prepare and we have all the conversations, it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2:
[08:40] No. And I do. Yeah, that is one of the things. Like the subtitle of my book on Motherhood Before I Was Ready, it's like, when would you ever have been ready? You know, like, yeah. And also, I do, I remember my mom telling me like, reading all these things, it's not going to help you, it's just going to create anxiety, you know, and I was like, screw you, you know, like I need to read everything at three in the morning to feel better. But like, I can see now, you know, medicated and ten years out from that.

Speaker 1:
[09:12] Medicated, I love that. A different perspective when you're medicated. I want to go back to, if you were going to rewrite the book now, what would that book be? I was so touched by it, specifically the parts about, where you talk about giving birth, and I saw myself, you know, in your experience so much, and I felt so validated, and I felt like it was so brutally honest. So I'm really am curious, like, what do you mean if you wrote it again, it would be different?

Speaker 2:
[09:39] I mean, I wouldn't be able to capture that immediacy in the same way. But I think, I do think it's hard to say because sometimes I wish in the book I had almost had an afterward, like I was dealing with postpartum anxiety and depression, you know? And I honestly didn't know that when I wrote that book, I was like, kind of figuring it out. But but in some ways, I wonder if that would like alienate some people or say like, well, that's not my experience. So like, this doesn't apply to me or, you know, I do think it's not so black and white if like, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[10:14] I think writing about it in the moment when you are in that postpartum period reflects like the true feelings of that moment. Writing about it retroactively, like again, softens the edges.

Speaker 2:
[10:29] Yeah. And I do think, do you have that experience where like older moms are like, oh, they just, you forget, you know, you romanticize it in the past and like it is romantic in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1:
[10:43] Well, yeah, I'm already like, hmm, like pregnancy wasn't so bad, but I have a pretty brutal pregnancy. But like I identify in what you just said, because I have been sharing a lot of content on my socials about my pregnancy and my postpartum, and now this show with this like, I don't, I don't consider it to be radical honesty. I'm just telling people how I feel and I'm not putting like a cover over it or a shield or not hiding the truth from people. But I wonder through it all because I still am in this postpartum period. I'm like, am I freaking people out? Not only my friends and family that are like, are you OK? And the reality is that you're allowed to not be OK right now and it's not some like red flashing light. It's totally normal to be uncomfortable and to be going through it. There definitely are things that are red flashing lights in this moment that you cannot ignore. But I wonder how people are perceiving my content right now. Probably in the same way you wondered how people would feel about your book when they read it.

Speaker 2:
[11:55] Yeah. Sometimes I hear from people who are like, I couldn't read it when I was pregnant, but and I couldn't read it right after I had a baby, but like three months after I was ready to read it or like a year after. And I do, you know, you just have to tell yourself that that's their decision, whether you're not like, somebody can mute you if you're freaking them out, you know, if they're like eight months pregnant.

Speaker 1:
[12:18] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[12:20] I love when you were like literally crying because it felt too soon to go back to work. Like people can write that in a comment with a beautiful picture of the baby, but that's like different than seeing it. You know, you're still going to work, but you're going to have a little breakdown beforehand. And like that is like almost universal. You know, like, yeah, it feels so vulnerable because usually you only want to share that after the fact, you know, and after you work better.

Speaker 1:
[12:50] I think it's really interesting to be doing this in real time because of the honesty and because it is such a universal human experience, right? I think if you look at a lot of like influencer content, it's what they want it to be, right? And I think that the community, the Good Mom community that we're building is here because it's the exact opposite of that, right? And this is the stuff that doesn't often get shared. And it is kind of scary. And that is okay, in my opinion. And I think that's part of why I'm doing it, is that it's okay to be uncomfortable. It's okay to be scared. Like, I don't want to run away from fear my entire life, right? Sometimes you have to sit in it and be really uncomfortable. And that's kind of the point.

Speaker 2:
[13:50] Yeah. And I think maybe having a baby, like a decade ago, for me, I wasn't there. Like, I didn't understand yet. You know, if I wish... That is one thing. Like, I felt like a little young or immature, even though I was 30 years old. But, you know, it's the ability to sit in discomfort and know that doesn't make you a bad person if you're uncomfortable. I think there's that feeling, like, influencers or anybody, the media, you think, like, if I'm not having this blissful time, something's wrong with me, you know?

Speaker 1:
[14:20] Right.

Speaker 2:
[14:22] It's like, no, these people are lying to everyone.

Speaker 1:
[14:26] Exactly what you just said. Like, just because I'm having a hard time today doesn't mean I'm a bad person. And I think that moms in our hearts, that's what we're seeking, right? Because this identity shift, parenthood is challenging. It is difficult. But it doesn't mean that, like, you are a bad person if it is hard sometimes. And I think that is what is really resonating in this community, is that, like, we are able to be like, you know what? I had a hard day today. I'm having a hard week. But guess what? Like, you're still a good mom. It's like, I know the name of the show is Time in Cheek, but it's also, to a certain degree, super earnest because you have to hear that stuff. I want to pivot a little bit to the C section of it all. I had a C section. I read everything that you wrote, and I found it, unfortunately, after I had a C section, and I wish that I had found it before. Something, I don't know if you can go back and, like, edit those articles, because I know they're from a little while ago, but one of the articles was, like, the critical things you need if you're going to have a C section, and something that was missing from your list is this C section bar. It's like a bar handle that you stick under your mattress, that you can grab onto as you're laying down to help pull you up out of bed, and somebody told me about it. I can't remember how I figured it out, but now I, like, shout it from the rooftops. If you have a C section, you need the surgery bar.

Speaker 2:
[15:51] That's the hardest part, is laying down and getting up a million times in the middle of the night, and it's just, like, excruciating.

Speaker 1:
[15:57] Oh my god, yes. Like, oh my god, the baby's crying, I have to feed the baby, I have to pee. Oh yeah, it's tough. I was presented with a choice, and I chose a C section, and then 38 weeks, I went to my 38 week appointment, and the doctor was like, guess what, your blood pressure's really high. Like, see you in the OR in a couple of hours, like you're going to meet your baby today, which was terrifying because I was not prepared that day to give birth. So it went from elective to emergency, like in a hurry, but it still, to a certain degree, was calm and peaceful because I had not been laboring for 27 hours, right? I still had the opportunity to go in without facing any of that, like physical or emotional trauma, kind of like going into it. There's something that you wrote in your tiny letter, and I think it was kind of one of the like original moments of Meaghan O'Connell like talking about this stuff. And it just, it resonated with me so much and I want to read it for you and for our listeners. You wrote, I wanted the C-section so badly. I wanted it like you want a glass of water at a stranger's house, but you still feel like you should demure. I was thinking like a woman. I was in the most essentially oppressed, essentially female situation I've ever been in, and I was mentally oppressing myself on top of it. The moment I nodded my head to the doctor and consented to the operation, that was good for both me and my baby was the moment I became a mother.

Speaker 2:
[17:31] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[17:32] Holy shit, Meaghan. I burst into tears reading that a few weeks ago. Oh my God, it pierced me.

Speaker 2:
[17:41] Yeah, I still remember it. I still remember being like, I want it, but that's bad. Like that's the failure. But I was like, no. For me, hopefully most people don't have problem asking for what they want. But my life at that time, it was like a moment of, no, this is what I want and it's reasonable, and I'm going to say it.

Speaker 1:
[18:06] Is this just all of our internalized misogyny, being like, don't get this A-section, you have to labor.

Speaker 2:
[18:13] It's absurd, like 11 years, I have a tween downstairs and it's the idea that that mattered in that moment. I know birth can be this incredibly empowering thing, and it's a significant moment. But yeah, as if that would change what kind of mother I was or something, you know?

Speaker 1:
[18:37] But I think what I really found in this piece of writing specifically is that this is the moment that you became a mother, right? This is the moment that you stopped being afraid, stop backing away from the things that you don't want, and instead was like, yes, I'm going to do this. And it fundamentally changed you as a person, that decision, and I think probably enabled you to step into your momhood, right? And become a different person that ultimately is now responsible for the life of somebody else, where you do have to make all of the decisions, right? You have to be like, yes, yes, yes, no, I need this, you don't need this, yes, no, yes, no, right? I think that is the point to me that is super interesting, right? Like your personal evolution within, I don't know, tell me about your C-section, like.

Speaker 2:
[19:28] Well, I was going to say that that internal turn still happens all the time in parenting, you know, it's like, am I going to make myself and someone else uncomfortable on behalf of my kid? You know, it's like, am I going to reach out to the teacher and be like, actually, somebody's messing with him or, you know, like, he needs more. And it goes against my impulse to be like, I'm fine, I'm easygoing, you know. But like, that's so much part of parenting is, like, standing up for yourself and your kid. And so I do think that was like a critical moment. Yeah. But yeah, the difference between that C-section, and then I had another kid four years later, Sam, and I had an elective C-section, like kind of how you experience, where you like walk over to the surgical table. So surreal. So scary. And like nurses are just playing music. And I remember Ed Sheeran was playing when my son was born. I was like, okay.

Speaker 1:
[20:27] Is that what you picked? Because they let me pick.

Speaker 2:
[20:30] They did not let me pick.

Speaker 1:
[20:32] Oh, I picked Casey Musgraves because during all of my IVF, I would play her song Cardinal. Every time I would give myself an injection, I would turn on Casey. Okay, sorry. All right. So you're listening to Ed Sheeran and you walk into the OR.

Speaker 2:
[20:47] Yeah. So this time was so different. But and that was another kind of example where I had to voice to the OB against my instincts to be like, I had a really hard time with my last birth. And the first birth was in New York City and this was in Portland. So it was like a whole different ballgame. And I had to say, and my therapist like helped talk me through it. It was like I had a traumatic experience with my first birth. And like nothing truly bad happened, but I did have PTSD for a while after I gave birth. So saying that and like taking up that space, she was like, oh, okay, like this is really common. I was crying and she's like, this happens to a lot of women and I'm going to write something down in your chart and we're going to be cognizant of it when it comes time, the day of. And I was like, okay. And it actually made all the difference in the world. And like the nurses were like, oh, like you've been through this before, you had a hard time. And it just like set the tone, like the anesthesiologist came in. I remember her just like squeezing my foot because I was crying like it was all coming back, you know, and I'm anticipating the same feelings of being like abandoned and in pain and nobody cares is how it felt at the time, you know, the first time. And just for them to say like we know you had a bad experience and like we're going to do everything we can. You're in control. You tell us, you know, like tell us if you're not comfortable, tell us when you're ready, if you're not ready. And that was just the opposite experience I had the first time, you know, where I just felt kind of how I wish like I wrote in the book, like I wish they took me seriously and talked to me like a grown up and helped me feel like I had some control in the situation, even though you don't control it. You know, there are things you can control. Right.

Speaker 1:
[22:43] Yeah. In your first C-section, what happened that led up to requiring a C-section? I will be honest with you. I was not prepared for how much of motherhood is just logistics, like actual operational problem solving constantly. I am running a company. I live in New York City. I'm getting in and out of meetings and coffee shops and ride shares. And I have the baby. And the gear either works for that life or it does not. Nuna works. The Swift stroller specifically is what we have. All four wheels have 360 degree rotation, so you can move side to side and pivot instantly, which in a city, it means you're not doing like a seven point turn to get through a doorway. I cannot tell you how helpful the Swift is in this instance. My husband said we have to have the Swift specifically for these wheel features. And thankfully, I was like, yeah, we're getting the Swift. I also walk my dog with it, and that used to feel like very hard, but it's not anymore. The Pippa Air Car Seat, we have that also. It clicks into ride chairs or just any car so cleanly. If you live in ride chairs, though, like I do, you understand why that matters, and the whole car seat line is made without added fire retardant chemicals, which as someone who thinks a lot about what goes in and on our bodies, I really appreciate. The bassinet has also been amazing for the early weeks too. The whole system, it just works. So if you are navigating the purchase of a stroller right now, check out nunababy.com or pop into Nordstrom to see it in person.

Speaker 2:
[24:24] So it was Brooklyn in 2014, which was for me like peak natural birth culture. I was like, wow, all in like I took, you know, all the prenatal yoga classes, all the natural birth classes. I went to like a workshop for carrying your baby, breastfeeding, like I was just doing my homework and not thinking too much about like my actual values. I just wanted to do it the right way, you know? And so I got totally pulled into that. And then 10 days went by, so I was 10 days overdue and they were like, we're going to have to induce you. And I'm like, that's terrible, you know? So I went, but then I, the day I was going to be induced, I went into labor. But then I just stayed in labor and didn't progress. And for a while it got down to like six minutes between contractions, then went to 10 and 15 and basically two days passed. And that sucked. Like, after a while you hit a wall where you're like, this isn't, I mean, I know some women push through and do it, but I was like, I'm exhausted. I am in so much pain. This doesn't feel empowering at all, you know?

Speaker 1:
[25:44] Yeah, I think after two days of labor and it really being challenging, you don't really need to feel badly about that or have any expectation that you should push through.

Speaker 2:
[25:57] Oh my God. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[25:59] Yeah. I mean, I'm sure some people push through, but my goodness.

Speaker 2:
[26:05] Right. I went to the hospital and they were like, you're not dilated enough. When I found out I was like three centimeters dilated after days of labor, that sucked. And they're like, go for a walk. I'm like, okay. It was horrible. I was just trying to eat. I couldn't. I was too much pain. I come back and I'm like, I want the epidural. Jig is up. I don't care anymore. The person who didn't want an epidural is not me.

Speaker 1:
[26:35] Brooklyn Mama 2014 now wants the epidural.

Speaker 2:
[26:40] And my husband was like, are you sure we talked about this? I'm like, fuck off. I want it. You know, like, I didn't know what this would be like. And it's true. You don't know what it's going to be like when you make a plan, you know. So they gave me the epidural. But the problem, what happened in like, this is what honestly traumatized me, I think, is that the epidural didn't work. It like faded. And so that feeling of like, I'm calling it, I'm asking for help. And then the help didn't arrive. You know, that and everyone being like, oh, this happens. And I don't know what they could have done to like make it better, but it just was a really bad feeling. And I don't know how many hours passed where the epidural was like half working. I had to do it again and move me around. And it just, I felt like I was like, you could just knock me out and pull the baby out, right? Like, I don't care anymore. I felt just like on the verge of death. Not literally, but, you know, like, Well, I think kind of literally. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:46] You don't have to sugarcoat it here. I think that, yeah, and you know, labor to that degree for that long is one of the most intense physical conditions a human can go through and endure. So I wouldn't minimize it if I were you.

Speaker 2:
[28:02] I know. It's like I watch The Pit now, and they're talking about somebody, their heart rate being at 120, and I'm like, my heart rate was at 140 something when I was.

Speaker 1:
[28:13] You were in medical distress. I was.

Speaker 2:
[28:16] I think I had an affection. I had like a, yeah, I put it in the birth story, but they filled a diaper with ice and put it on my head, which was so like something about that. It's like you have no dignity at this point.

Speaker 1:
[28:27] It's that, you know, there's something really spooky, to be honest, about the idea of being abandoned in a controlled medical environment, right? And the epidural stopping to work and you, you know, getting uncomfortable and it continues on and it continues on. And I will not talk about it too much because I don't want to make you upset, but I'm sure that that is something that when you think about it to this day freaks you out. Like there's things that when I go back and visit my experience in the hospital, I think about them just for a blip and then I have to be like, oh my God, I can't think about that. It's too awful. I can't think about it. Right? And I just shove it down and push it away because what will happen if I continue to think about it and face it? I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[29:16] Maybe in a year or two you can do that. It did. Honestly, having that elective C-section is what, I don't want to say healed, but in a way like healed me.

Speaker 1:
[29:29] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[29:30] Because it was like-

Speaker 1:
[29:31] You got to try again.

Speaker 2:
[29:33] Yeah. And it's not like a great advice. Just have another baby. You'll heal your birth trauma. But I didn't expect it. But something about knowing that's what I wanted, the C-section and asking for it. I went through it again. I was like, do I deserve this? Shouldn't I be doing a V-back? I felt like that was the pressure, was to do the V-back. And I was like, you know what? If I do that fucking V-back and it fails and I have to go through all that again, I don't know if I'll be okay. I didn't want to find myself in that position where I felt abandoned and near the edge of staring into the void. I was like, I can't do that again. I'm not going to, actually, is.

Speaker 1:
[30:19] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[30:20] You have, like you said, you have the ability to say like, no, I'm not. I don't know where I'm going with that. No, you do.

Speaker 1:
[30:32] I mean, it seems to me that this has been a huge moment of personal growth for you, in terms of having authority over your own decisions and your own life that probably extends beyond just birth, right?

Speaker 2:
[30:46] Yeah, beyond.

Speaker 1:
[30:46] I'm sure it comes up in many different aspects of your life. Yeah, like I'm so curious. I have yet to meet somebody who has a positive birth story. I'm sure as I say this on the show, I will get a lot of DMs. I would love to actually have a positive birth story episode. So if you have had a positive birth story, please DM me your story. Please, because my C-section, like your second, was calm and nice. Yes, I was terrified walking into the OR. Walking into that OR, oh my God. My very scary moment came a day after I had a C-section. I fainted in my hospital room and my blood pressure skyrocketed, and all of these nurses and doctors had to run into the room and basically rescue me and try to figure out what was going on. I assumed that I was having a brain aneurysm because I had such a crazy headache during this moment. One of my grandmothers passed from a brain aneurysm, and so I'm just like, oh my God, this is happening to me. And like, holy shit. And my like brandy baby is at the end of the bed. And I'm just like, oh my, the terror was like, anyway, that's the thing that like, I can't even believe I just saw those things out loud. I can't think about that moment. It is like really just, oh my God, it really, it's like, whew, it's really hard for me to think about that time because I truly thought, I was like, this is it and this is awful and this is terrifying. And I'm like, leaving my husband and this day old baby and holy fucking shit, this is like how my story ends.

Speaker 2:
[32:43] Don't you think that's part of like, you're trying to process, like suddenly you have a child, you have to take care of and it's like this huge responsibility and it, I feel like in my brain to be like, of course, now I'm going to die because I finally have my baby. So it's okay.

Speaker 1:
[32:59] I checked the box and now, now I'm brave.

Speaker 2:
[33:04] I swear, it's like the other shoe obviously has to drop and that shoe is going to be me dying.

Speaker 1:
[33:11] Yes. I actually would like to talk about something that you wrote that is about death. You wrote, I know, isn't this so fun? It's probably super healing. You wrote, we created a death in the book. I have to ask you about that line specifically because I read it and something in me just cracked open because I have felt that holding my little girl, but I didn't have the words for it until I read that. The fear of what we have created, the immortality of it, the weight of being responsible, it sits in this really dark, quiet place. That's another place that I do not like to visit. I'm curious how you hold that space in your own life because those were your words. I couldn't have come up with them when you're a literary genius, so you did.

Speaker 2:
[34:09] I mean, there's something about birth that's so close. You know, like, this baby wasn't here. You know, like, I didn't, I don't know how to say, like, I don't recommend sitting in this place. I didn't so much with my second, but the headspace I was in with my first, I just watched him breathe and was like, I, he could just stop so easily and like we all could, you know, just go about our lives not thinking about it because it's hard to function. But something about the baby that wasn't there and that, you know, you have to do safe to sleep, like put him on his back with nothing around him. And it, you feel like in a, I took on too much mentally, but I was like, I'm responsible. I created him like every breath I've, and that's anxiety. I felt like I had to monitor, you know, like if I'm not watching, what's going to happen? It was like too much. Like that's a bad sign. But, and I think with my second, you could feel the temptation, but I was like, that's not, like you were saying, like I'm not going to go down that hallway because it's not productive. But it's true, you know, like you created a life and everybody dies, and it's just you can't think about it too much. I don't know. Like that's how I function with big kids is, you know, my kids are 7 and 11, and you can torture yourself or not, and you just have to teach them how to be people in the world. And we lived this long, they probably will too.

Speaker 1:
[35:45] Yeah. The mortality of it all, man. A bummer. Do you think that your sons will read your first book? I know you're working on another book. Do you think that they'll read the first one? And like, what do you think about that?

Speaker 2:
[36:05] I do feel like sometimes I'm setting the stage like they haven't. But I'm like, it wasn't about you. It was about my experience becoming a mother. And really, and people get annoyed that I didn't name my kid, his name is Henry, he doesn't care now. But at the time, I'm like, I don't know if he wants people to know his name. He's a baby, he can't like consent. And also, I wanted to emphasize that it wasn't about him. Like, it was about my identity crisis and transformation and experience and mental illness. So that in a way, the baby is like an inciting force. And so, yeah, but and I remember people being like you're, I don't even know, maybe, yeah, it's like you imagine the most hateful review of the book or like memorize them. But it's just like this kid is going to be feel so like horrified and rejected. And I'm just like, no, like my child is smart kid who understands like what motherhood is like and how hard it can be. And it has nothing to do with him, you know, like, yeah. So, yeah, we talk about like they know their birth stories. We talk about them on their birthdays. And, you know, and Henry Sam, the younger one kind of like brags about how his was easier. You know, it's just kind of part of our family lore. And they know that like, breastfeeding is a lot of work and I didn't love it. And, you know, we one of the stories we always laugh about is Henry like biting my boob and laughing. I screamed because it hurts so bad. And then I burst into tears and he just laughed at me. He's like 10 months old or something. But it's like, it's just funny. And yeah, so I want, like we talk about it enough that I wouldn't be like, oh God, they can't read it. You know, they could read it because they know that was a different time. I'm a different person.

Speaker 1:
[38:09] Yeah, I mean, I think it's a powerful piece of writing because again, I think it was one of the books that started to open up this conversation amongst ourselves, like mom to mom, but also moms to people who are not moms because, sorry, you guys, if you're a siren, we're recording in New York City. I think when I was pregnant and starting to have experiences that felt a little bit uncomfortable, I was so worried that if I talked about that, people would be like, well, you don't like being a mom, and it's the exact opposite, right? It's being able to understand the distinction between I am extremely in love with my child and also this experience and this identity shift is allowed to exist separately. They're two different things. And yeah, it's like the like stupid people in the comment section, they're like, oh my God, it's like it either has to be like all or nothing, right? And I think that your book resonated so much when it first came out and still does. And all of these conversations resonate is because moms are being validated and seen as individuals versus just, oh, this has to be about your kids, because becoming a mom is really not about your kid.

Speaker 2:
[39:35] Truly, it's not.

Speaker 1:
[39:37] It's about this remarkable identity shift that yes, the child is the catalyst, but the identity shift exists in its own universe. It's its own thing, right? And I think that being seen and being like, that is okay, is like what is so powerful about your writing and why I really love it.

Speaker 2:
[40:03] Well, thank you. Yeah. I still have a memory of writing an essay about, I think it was about dealing, like making sense of my postpartum body, like looking in the mirror for the first time and being like, what is this? Because your whole life has changed and you would, it would be nice if you were still recognizable to yourself, at least physically, but. Yeah. Totally.

Speaker 1:
[40:27] I see these memes that are so well-intentioned, obviously, and I probably just have to get to some higher version of myself to buy in, but it's like your body is something amazing and you should love this version of your body. I'm like, I want to, but I'm not there yet.

Speaker 2:
[40:48] That's okay. It's bad enough to feel alienated from yourself, but then to feel bad that you feel that way is like meta guilt. Come on. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[41:00] It's like people telling you what to do and how to feel from both sides. It's like, oh, you should work on getting your body back, and the other side is like Brooklyn 2014. No, you should love your new body.

Speaker 2:
[41:12] We can't win.

Speaker 1:
[41:13] I don't know. What I do know is that I didn't know that a C-section shelf would be like a C-section shelf. I think for me, that is the specific part of my postpartum body that I'm really struggling with. It's not fun.

Speaker 2:
[41:30] It's not cute. It's not fun.

Speaker 1:
[41:32] It's not cute. And again, I'm like, oh my God, I elected to have a C-section, and now I have a C-section shelf. I look like what? What have I done that I'm so stupid, real, and so self-centered? And what's the word when you're worried about what you look like? It's like, vain?

Speaker 2:
[41:50] Vain.

Speaker 1:
[41:51] Vain. It's so vain.

Speaker 2:
[41:54] It's your body. I just can't help it. That will get better. I do want to tell you that for time. Oh, really? Yeah, definitely. But it is, yeah, it's like, oh, but I was going to say, I remember filing that essay to the cut and like the some executive editor was giving it a top edit and she wrote like this comment, it was in all caps, because that's what they do sometimes. But she was like, emphasize here how much she loves her baby or something. I was like, oh, come on. Do we really do we have to say that? I feel like that's obvious, but fine.

Speaker 1:
[42:32] The cut and all caps sounds pretty terrifying. I love reading the cut, but I'm also terrified of the cut.

Speaker 2:
[42:38] Me too.

Speaker 1:
[42:41] You have written for the cut. How are you scared of the cut?

Speaker 2:
[42:44] I'm still scared. Scary waiting is over at the cut.

Speaker 1:
[42:47] If you're listening to this, please be nice to us.

Speaker 2:
[42:50] We beg of you.

Speaker 1:
[42:52] This has been such a great episode for me personally. We both have had the C-section experience. Your book is just, it's like a beautiful work of art in my estimation. I hope that everybody listening to today's episode definitely checks it out again. It's called And Now We Have Everything on Motherhood Before I Was Ready. If you love, because how could you not? The Good Mom community, please subscribe and follow wherever you are listening to or watching this podcast. And I don't know if you guys know, but I have a newsletter on Substack that I publish once a week. And in the Substack, I go a little bit deeper into each episode. I reflect on the episode once I've listened to it back. And so I would love it if you checked out my Substack as well. But today, everyone, just thank you, Meaghan O'Connell, so much for being such a great guest and for being so honest and vulnerable. And yeah, like, bravo.

Speaker 2:
[43:58] Thanks for having me. I'm so happy this podcast exists. I know I wish I would have had it when I was a new mom.

Speaker 1:
[44:04] Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:
[44:05] You're a good mom. You're doing a good job.

Speaker 1:
[44:07] You're a good mom. I want to remember to tell the people that come on the show, you're a good mom. That's the whole point of the show. You're a good mom, Meaghan.

Speaker 2:
[44:15] Thank you. Still hits. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.