transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:25] Hello and welcome to Turned Out A Punk. I'm your host, Damian Abraham. And today on the show, a person I have known for a very long time, but really this is the very first time I've had any sort of extended conversation with them. And what a conversation that is. Jade Puget from the band AFI is on the show today. And if you're not familiar with AFI, I don't know how to help you with this one. Check them out. They've got a lot of cool records. I have a very long history with this band. You can kind of go back and listen to the podcast with Davey that I've done over the years. And I consider Davey a friend, a long time friend at this point. And as you hear Jade and I discuss it, maybe it's just the lead singer syndrome, but I have had very little interaction with Jade and or Adam. No, actually Adam, Adam I've talked to a little bit, but Hunter as well, I've had very little interactions with over the years. So to get to do this with Jade, it was a long time coming. And oh my gosh, that I have a lot of questions that you will hear me ask in a second. If you are listening to this podcast, when it first drops, you can go and see AFI live. And if you've never experienced AFI live, oh my god, they are an unbelievable live band. They have some dates coming up in the United States. I don't even know what part of the United States this would be. There's a little bit of West Coast stuff. Anyway, I'll post a link in the description below. And hopefully there will be going on more tour dates as the rest of the year goes on and you will have a chance to see them because they have a new-ish record, Silver Bleeds, The Black Sun, which is an unbelievable album that they have put out last year and continues in AFI's constant kind of evolution. And it is out on Run For Cover Records and you can pick it up wherever you buy your albums or listen to your music. You know, listen to it wherever you are right now probably. But listen to the podcast first or listen to the record then come back, whatever you decide to do. Also, there is a new super group that Jade is involved with, with Eric Ozeen from Unit Pride, Redemption 87, Nerve Agents, other members of Nerve Agents are in this group. The record is fantastic. It's called Beyond The Ape Cave and it is available now on Revelation Records. And yeah, you'll hear us wax poetically about Eric's various projects in a second. But I will say, pick this thing up. They are fantastic. Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff in this episode. I don't know if I have any notes to get to. I'm sure there probably is something I'm forgetting about, but hopefully I get a chance to get Hunter and Adam on now too, because you got to collect them all. This is a fun one. Apologies to Jade about having to leave suddenly at the very end. Don't worry, everything was okay. But yeah, I had to hop off very suddenly on poor Jade, as you will hear. But I'm not going to ramble on anymore. Check out AFI. Check out all the records AFI ever did, and you will be very happy. And now sit back, relax and enjoy Jade Puget on Turned Out A Punk. Jade, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 2:
[04:06] Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:
[04:07] Well, I feel like this one has been a long time coming for me. And as I was saying to you off air, weirdly, and I think it boils down to lead singer syndrome, as I think we both arrived at. I don't know anyone else in the band beyond being fans of your music before AFI. And there's so much stuff I want to ask you about that has been building up over the years. So this has been a long time coming for me.

Speaker 2:
[04:34] Cool.

Speaker 1:
[04:35] And also, starting off with the fact, I thought about it and did a little bit digging on the show. You are the first person who's ever been on the show that shares the honor of playing in a post-Unit Pride band with me.

Speaker 2:
[04:49] Oh, you did as well.

Speaker 1:
[04:51] I did. I played with Timmy Pride in my very unfortunate solo project years ago. Well, I don't stand by it. It was a concept record and the concept is very flimsy in retrospect. But playing with Timmy Pride was a huge honor for me because Unit Pride is, I was first introduced to them actually through Redemption 87, but a huge band for me.

Speaker 2:
[05:18] Oh, that's cool. Yeah, I mean, now I've been in two bands with Eric, so.

Speaker 1:
[05:23] I know. I know. So I feel like you're like my Unit Pride brethren. Unit Pride descended brethren, I guess.

Speaker 2:
[05:31] Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[05:33] Well, we're going to talk about Redemption 87. Probably won't have time to get to the new band, but I do an introduction, so I'll talk about that, certainly in the introduction, because we're going to be digging deep on a lot of old stuff, I'm sure. But I've got to start off the way they all start off, which is, Jade, how did you get in a punk? Do you remember the first time you ever came across it?

Speaker 2:
[05:51] Yeah, I guess as a kid, I feel like people that are our age, they either get in a punk through Sex Pistols or Ramones. Like, you discover one of those at some point. And so for me, it was Sex Pistols. And I guess I was just, I was probably 12 years old or something, looking for extreme music. I didn't really know what I was looking for, but I knew I wanted something that other people weren't listening to. And I always wanted to be counter to what was going on and do stuff that would make other people uncomfortable. It just kind of like, I don't know, it appealed to me. So I was looking for this. I remember there was these metal magazines in the local grocery store. So I'd get these metal magazines and I'd look at them and they have like pictures of Wasp and Motley Crue and like, you know, Blacky Lawless with the buzz saw cod piece. And I'd just be like, whoa, I didn't know anything about metal and like Iron Maiden. So I write these names of these bands on my book covers, having never heard them just because I was like, you know, drawn in by the imagery and by these larger than life kind of people. But luckily I didn't go that direction because I discovered, I bought Nevermind The Bullocks cassette at some record store and I was hooked. And I went, you know, I got the Sid Vicious solo record. I got a great Rock and Roll Swindle, which both are pretty terrible. But, you know, I was, I didn't have access to anything else. So I was just kind of like, okay, sex pistols, let me go deeper in that. And so that was kind of my entree, I guess, in the punk until I guess in junior high, I started hearing about punk bands. Like I heard about this kid in my, one of my classes just tell me like an older kid, he's like, yeah, there's this band called Minor Threat and like, that's like skinhead music. And you can only listen to it if you're a skinhead. And like, if you're not a skinhead, they'll like beat you up. It's like, damn, that's crazy. But also like so exciting. Like I need to hear this band, Minor Threat. And no one of course had Minor Threat. So I just heard about it. And then there was this kind of cool older punk girl, one of my other classes that was one day she was singing Weapons by DI. M16s and 45s help. And just those lyrics, I didn't know who it was, but those lyrics were so cool. I was like, who is that? And she's like this band called DI, you know, like it's a punk band. And it was just, I was hearing about these things without ever hearing them and becoming really excited about this music and trying to find out more about it. And then eventually I got my hands on some real punk. And the first thing I got, I got two things at the same time, which were really pivotal for me and kind of set me off, I guess, to be where I am right now. One was Thrasher Magazine used to put out a skate rock compilation. And I got volume two, Blazing Wheels and Barking Trucks. And it had like JFA, Big Boys, Los Alberados, TSOL, McRad, just had all these cool bands. And so I was discovering like, actually, here's real punk, you know, post first wave punk stuff. And then I also got the first Suicidal Tendencies album. And that was really, I mean, to this day, top five albums of all time, punk albums, like No Skips, just an incredible album. And once I heard that, you know, I threw it on for the first time I was in my living room and my aunt was walking through the room. And it was the song I saw your mom and your mommy's dead. And she like stopped and she's like, I saw your mommy and your mommy's dead. What are you listening to? And I'm like, her reaction was like, okay, this is, this is where I need to be. This is what I need to be listening to. This is the reaction I want from people.

Speaker 1:
[09:26] That's Gate Rock compilation, like just from the list of bands you're going through there. It's like, what a great starter pack because it's kind of not really one sound of punk too with all those bands. They're all kind of doing different approaches to Skate Rock, I guess it's broadly termed.

Speaker 2:
[09:41] Yeah, I had like The Faction, which is just pretty much a Skate Rock band, but yeah, absolutely a bunch of weird, different stuff and it was kind of confusing that being my first real exposure to punk, just because it was so disparate. I guess I, because I really listened to Sex Pistols, I kind of thought everything sounded kind of like that. And then all of a sudden I'm hearing all of this different weird stuff. But then when I heard Suicidal, that was really like as fast, because I love skating, I was a skater, so it was just exactly what I thought punk should be. Songs about Reagan, I mean, come on.

Speaker 1:
[10:16] With the skateboarding thing, like thinking about it, because it's drawing all these sort of disparate punks scenes together and really kind of weird, different views on punk, certainly from the big boys to suicidal tendencies. But everyone's kind of connected through this shared love and this sort of underground culture comes sport later on.

Speaker 2:
[10:40] When for the first, I mean, for the entire, almost the entirety of my skating, being into skating, punk and skating was, were so simpatico that everyone was in a punk. It was so intertwined. You probably talked to a lot of people that those two things came together and they discovered those two things together. So for me, it was like, I always associated punk and skating.

Speaker 1:
[11:05] Yeah, it's interesting, because I think by the time I was getting into punk, it was still associated with skateboarding. But I think skateboarding went through that period where it became obsessed with Dinosaur Jr. I guess it's like these skaters are matured, right? It was like a lot of SST stuff, which now I love, but at the time was, apart from Dinosaur Jr. But certainly the Minutemen was not necessarily what I was gravitating to. Then a lot of skateboarding by that point, there was also kind of the Warped Tour era, where that kind of got more associated with sort of that style of things, where yeah, earlier on, it's like it is bringing together, I guess like it was such an underground thing, right? Like only freaks and weirdos skateboarded at that point.

Speaker 2:
[11:48] Exactly. And that was one of the appeals to me is, in my town, we were like the lowest men on the Totem Pole. Like we were, everyone wanted to kill us. The jocks, the metal heads, the hicks, like we were enemies of everyone. So to me, even though that sucked in a way, it also was appealing because it was like, okay, here's the most counter thing I could be doing. Listening to this music, doing this activity that everyone hates, like the cops hate us, the teachers hate us, parents hate us. And then I also, you know, I would carry around, like when I was really, I carry around the satanic Bible just because like, you know, what's more counter than in the 80s during the satanic panic than carrying around the satanic Bible?

Speaker 1:
[12:33] It's weird because like it's, it's fraction so much, but there was like just sort of this idea of being countercultural and like, it could be like engaging with the church of Satan through, you know, carry around the books, reading the books. It could be engaging in quote unquote, anti-social music from like noise music all the way to, I guess at that point it's like ska music, but it was like you were just like someone who was just out of step with, like you're saying, there's so many things that are more in touch with society that hate you because you're out of touch with society.

Speaker 2:
[13:08] Yeah, we didn't really articulate it in any kind of coherent way. But I think me and everyone I hung out with, we just want, we looked to be hated in a way. We gravitated towards things that we knew were going to set us apart, even though a lot of times when you're that age, you want to fit in, that's the opposite of like, a normal kid doesn't want to stand out because you become a victim, you became a target, but we wanted to be the target.

Speaker 1:
[13:36] And I don't know, it's in the book about Kurt Cobain. I think it's in Come As You Are. There's sort of this thing about, I don't know if it's Kurt Cobain that says it, or the author who says it, but there's this thing about hurting yourself before the world can hurt you, and kind of like being the one to bloody your nose when the kid is freaked out and won't bloody your nose. And this is like, I think a lot of it, yeah, like eventually it became, like I went straight edge because it was antisocial. Like it was a way to truly rebel against everybody. And that was what I was kind of searching for is like a way that was like, for me, a positive rebellion in the sense that I could find like a way to do it and not self-destruct like other people around me had.

Speaker 2:
[14:24] Straight Edge is definitely a part of that too. I mean, that came a little later than this. But yeah, that was another thing that I didn't know anyone that was straight edge. I was the only guy. So that was even more exclusive.

Speaker 1:
[14:41] It's kind of funny though, because like both AFI and Loose Change are from like the same town, right? So there's like certainly because of all your kind of diaspora, diaspora with the bands, like going and playing in all these other bands. There's like a lot of punk that comes from this sort of like smaller town north of Berkeley.

Speaker 2:
[15:03] It is strange. It's a very small town. And my best friend, the guy was in my first band with Nick 13 from Tiger Army. So there was all of this music happening and other bands besides us in this tiny little town. And bands that went on to escape this town and do something bigger.

Speaker 1:
[15:21] Was there a generation before you guys of punk bands?

Speaker 2:
[15:26] There was this one band in the early 80s called Second Shadow, which is a great name by the way, that were kind of this legendary, I think they were kind of gone for the most part by the time I became aware of them. But yeah, so there was this one generation before us, but we were kind of the first real generation of punk, you know, because we started listening to punk in the mid 80s and then started bands by like the late 80s, early 90s. So I guess we were the first real generation.

Speaker 1:
[15:58] Was Loose Change your first band?

Speaker 2:
[16:00] No, I had a band with Nick 13 when we were teenagers, it was my first band, both of our first band really, called Influence 13 and Jeff Kresge was in that band too, from the original or the second bass player of AFI.

Speaker 1:
[16:18] Jeff has one of the most interesting music resumes out of anyone on earth.

Speaker 2:
[16:23] He's been all over the place.

Speaker 1:
[16:24] Yeah, when Dave first told me that he like jumped to New York and was in Blank 77, it blew my fucking mind.

Speaker 2:
[16:34] Yeah, I remember that.

Speaker 1:
[16:35] And then he's also in Tiger Army and then in the Horror Pops. And then in a band from Canada called The Daggers for a minute. Like, and then and then Viva Hate too. Like he's just in fear.

Speaker 2:
[16:47] In fear. I don't think he's in fear anymore.

Speaker 1:
[16:50] But I think he left. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:52] But yeah, he's got an interesting CV for sure.

Speaker 1:
[16:57] So what kind of style was Influence 13?

Speaker 2:
[17:02] It was actually really cool and too bad. We never put anything out. I think that band could have done really well. We just couldn't. Nick and I were the only ones that were really devoted to the band. You know how it is. You got these flakes and you just can't ever seem to get it together because you can't find a stable lineup. But it was really a weird mix of all our influences. Like it was very like Jawbreaker, Sam I Am because those were the local bands at that time, like the small kind of local bands that would be first on the bill. And then also this weird mix of like Thrash, like Capitalist Casualties, DRI. So there would be the super melodic, like really cool. And then it would be this like biscuit blast beat song. So I don't, not together necessarily, but coexisting because we didn't think that was weird. It was just like, these are things that we like, so.

Speaker 1:
[17:58] This sounds fucking amazing. Did you have the chords at all?

Speaker 2:
[18:03] Yeah, there was like two demos, but we never, it just kind of like fell apart. But Nick was like such, he was, I think 16 and I was 17, that he was already such an amazing songwriter. Like he was, or like such a talented songwriter, even that early, like really intricate advanced melodies and just songwriting is really amazing.

Speaker 1:
[18:29] So were you guys all meeting at high school? Like how are you guys all coming together and forming these bands?

Speaker 2:
[18:35] I met Nick in junior high, when I like discovered, started discovering all these things that I was into. And there was this group of people, this is the only people in town that listened to punk and skated. And I met them like in, I think, 7th or 8th grade. And then they had this punk house, that we just hung out at this punk house for weeks at a time, never going home, never showering, never skating all day, listening to punk, it was great. So I met him really early on. And then the other guy, like an AFI, those guys were a little younger. They were like a year or two younger, maybe a year younger. And so we looked at them like grommets, because they weren't as good at skating. We were like way better. And we kind of looked at them as like these younger dudes that we were cool with, but they weren't really on our level.

Speaker 1:
[19:26] So where were you guys going to for shows? Like were you going down to Berkeley for shows or going down to the Bay for shows? Or were there shows happening around you guys?

Speaker 2:
[19:33] No, I mean, at that time, San Francisco was kind of the place, but there was a San Francisco Chronicle, which was like the main paper, and it had this at the pink section, which is a section that showed all the venues and all the shows, so we were looking at the pink section before any of us had our driver's licenses, and we didn't know any older people that drove, and so we'd see like Black Flag, we'd see like Susan The Banshees, and we couldn't go to the shows, and it was so painful, because none of our parents would take us, so finally, kind of the oldest guy in our group got his license, and then it was on, and that was like late 80s, where we started going to shows in San Francisco.

Speaker 1:
[20:14] So what was the first show you went to, or concert period?

Speaker 2:
[20:18] My very first show, most people have the story of like, I saw Bryan Adams at the Enormo Dome when I was 11. I grew up so poor, that wasn't even a possibility to see a concert. So my first show ever was my first punk show, which is I saw MDC, and it was like a pretty amazing first show. Because I mean, MDC's Millions of Dead Cops is one of my all time favorite records. I mean, just an incredible record. And to see that as my first show was pretty amazing.

Speaker 1:
[20:50] Yeah, that would have been insane. Was that in San Francisco?

Speaker 2:
[20:54] It was in this little town called Guernville, which is like maybe half an hour north of San Francisco. It's a place called the River Theater that used to have a lot of punk shows. In fact, I think like Black Flag played there. But I had a bunch of punk shows, but what's interesting on that show is the first, the opening band was Green Day, and they had just changed their name to Green Day, and they all had long hair still, and they were handing out joints, and all their songs, they were talking about weed, and this song's about smoking weed, and I was just like, whoa, what is this band? It was like back in those days, every show in the Bay Area was like White Power Skinheads, because there's such a huge presence of that in the Bay Area. So, there's so many and plus they all hated MDC, of course, because they had that song Skinhead, and they were, you know, super left-wing. So, there was all these White Power Skinheads there, and they were throwing ashtrays at Green Day, and I was like, damn, this is rough for this band. But, yeah, so I don't know where I was going with that. But-

Speaker 1:
[21:56] No, that's amazing. What a weird, also time for the history of San Francisco punk. Like, you've got sort of that pre-period where I guess like it's terrorized by the like the the fuck ups and their kind of crew of people. And then it seems like, yeah, the sort of like White Power Skinhead thing kind of invade.

Speaker 2:
[22:18] Yeah. Yeah. When I first started going to shows, that was like the kind of height of that. Like they had the war skins and the bash, the Bay Area skinheads, and there was just all of these skinhead crews. And they would just come to show, they weren't there to see the music. They were just there to fuck shit up and beat people up. And in this case, I think they were there to try to kill Dave Dichter, probably, because he didn't care. Like he was so bold. He was a little dude, but he was totally antagonizing them, taunting them from the stage. And they played that song Skinhead, and then all the skinheads tried to rush the stage, and they're trying to drag them off the stage. And I was just like this little kid watching this going like, holy shit. And yeah, it was a hectic scene. Surprisingly, they didn't get them off the stage. I don't know why. I think he was talking to them, maybe like talked them down somehow, but yeah, it was pretty gnarly.

Speaker 1:
[23:11] Yeah, like I think when Matt Freeman was on the show, he said the first day he played with them or joined the band, Dave got beaten up by the cops in front of him, like beaten down super fucking hard after the show for the police. And it's like, yeah, like that's a band that had to live it every day, like he had pulled over by the cops, they go through your merch, like every, every interaction is a potential altercation. And then certainly, like you're saying, he he was a a provocation artist, too, and engaged people on this sort of stuff.

Speaker 2:
[23:45] And he backed it up, like I say, on stage, it's like there were all these huge skinheads that wanted to kill him and he wasn't going to be, you know, he wasn't going to back down. And I mean, who could be more provocative than him? I mean, what did that record come out, 81 or something?

Speaker 1:
[23:59] Yeah, I think it's 80, 81. Yeah, 81, 82, 81. I don't know. Yeah, I read that.

Speaker 2:
[24:05] I think about cross-dressing. He's saying, he's like saying, fuck the cops. He's saying, fuck skinheads, you know, capitalism, basically every, fuck everything. And, you know, the most counter you could be.

Speaker 1:
[24:19] Yeah, like in, when they're still the stains and they're in Texas and they're doing, John Wayne was a Nazi in like 70 something. It's like, that's, that's wild. Like I, I no doubt they had the, what they probably would not be here if they had stayed in Texas. I imagine getting up in San Francisco, at least you're dealing with a slightly more liberal environment.

Speaker 2:
[24:41] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[24:44] So did you guys form to lose change by this point? Or did you guys form the first band by this point, by the time you went to the show?

Speaker 2:
[24:52] No, that would have been like maybe 89, I think. 88, 89 when we first started going to shows and we formed our first band in 91, summer 91 and then lose change formed in 92.

Speaker 1:
[25:04] Were you seeing bands like CapCas and that sort of like power violence slap a ham sort of scene?

Speaker 2:
[25:08] Oh yeah. Like that whole slap a ham scene was very intertwined. Like those bands would just be on shows. We played with CapCas Casually. Lose Change did this one show and they were like, they're trying to get beer money. So they told us like they offered to sell us the publishing of one of their songs. They're like, we'll give you full publishing rights to this song. I think it was like a song about Paps Blue Ribbon. Like we'll give you the rights to the song if you give us like five bucks so we can get some beer. That's a pretty good deal.

Speaker 1:
[25:43] In the era of the gentrification of Dystopia, you might be able to sell that to Paps Blue Ribbon for a lot of money. If you would take that deal.

Speaker 2:
[25:53] I know. I think we might just give them the money because we know that they were desperate.

Speaker 1:
[25:58] It's funny. I have a live record of CapCaz playing at the Gilman. In it, they stop a song and they're like, all right, we got you guys in for free and you're fighting. Stop it. Then I saw them at the Gilman. It must have been six years after this live record was recorded. The exact same banter was said from stage in the middle of a song.

Speaker 2:
[26:22] Nice. Are they still around?

Speaker 1:
[26:24] No, I think the lead singer passed away a few years ago.

Speaker 2:
[26:28] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[26:29] Sadly. Did you see no comment ever?

Speaker 2:
[26:33] No comments. I mean, it's possible. I don't specifically recall.

Speaker 1:
[26:37] I love that about the Gilman scene is that it's such a cool variety of punk bands that are all just drawn together much like the skateboard thing around the fact that this is an all ages venue to play, but like you've got like Rabid Lassie or Unit Pride playing with the CapCas people playing with like Green Day or something. Like it really does feel like it's an awesome melting pot of all things that were punk at that time.

Speaker 2:
[27:06] You know, it's unfortunate is somehow we didn't really become aware of the Gilman scene in the 80s. I don't know why or how. I think it's because they were too underground because we were living in a small town. So we were discovering venues through the newspaper. And so we just, no one knew about Gilman Street. So we didn't start going to Gilman until like, you know, the early 90s. But that 80s Gilman, like the original first couple of years of Gilman Street, we kind of missed that.

Speaker 1:
[27:38] It's so weird too, because like the guy who ran Alchemy Records is like one of the founding people. And I guess Aaron Cometbuss's mom had been looking and found this building, and that's how they found the building. Like, the origins of that place are fascinating. Like, and the guy from Alchemy Records is like related to Captain Beefheart. There's like a really familial connection between Captain Beefheart, I believe. And so there's some weird Alchemy, I guess, going on with that space that is still here today.

Speaker 2:
[28:08] That's a great space. And the fact that it's still around, because I remember, you know, 30 years ago, being like every other weekend, it was like, oh, man, it's over. Gilman's shutting down. It's done. Like, it was always about to shut down. And somehow here we are, 2026, still gone.

Speaker 1:
[28:25] Yeah, I can't think of another All Ages Venue, maybe the one in 12. I don't know if you guys ever played that in Bradford, but that's like another, you know, very political sort of like All Ages space that I believe is still in operation now. But yeah, like to survive as a venue, period is hard, let alone like a collective All Ages kind of space.

Speaker 2:
[28:48] Yeah, and they opened that brewery across the street and that brewery is really trying to shut them down because they didn't want that kind of thing happening, even though Gilman had been there way longer. So the weather that storm.

Speaker 1:
[29:03] Well, that's I think the unfortunate part about punk is it's always going to be kind of like weirdly the part of the beginning of the gentrification cycle of a neighborhood. Because it feels like the punk venue moves in, punks move in around the venue, record stores move in, coffee shops move in, and eventually it starts enticing people that are completely counter to sort of the idea of trying to contribute to the community rather than take over the community.

Speaker 2:
[29:35] Yeah. I mean, you see that my first experience as touring, the punk venue was always the worst part of town. My first visits to all these major cities were like, I thought every city was just the worst place because you drive right to the venue and it's in the worst neighborhood, so you think the whole country is just this run down, broken down, dangerous place.

Speaker 1:
[30:00] Yeah. No, that's very true. We played, it was called Busy Kids? No, some place in Detroit and they had to like lock your van in when you showed up to play. Let us know if you want to go outside, but definitely don't go by yourself. But then they're like the freezer from Detroit's just the freezer, like the legendary hardcore venue, and they're approaching all those bands played, it's just around the corner if you want to go check it out. So we went and checked it out and stuff. It was fine walking around there, but I guess there had been previous not-so-fine experiences for bands.

Speaker 2:
[30:32] The first time I played in New Orleans, we got out of the van and it was record scratch. Everyone was like, we're like, we do not belong here, they do not want us here. We better load in quick.

Speaker 1:
[30:44] Where would you play with Influence 13?

Speaker 2:
[30:45] Oh man. It was like a living room with no one in it. We'd play a show or it would be like, hey, I'm having a party at my house, come and play it, and we'd show up and there'd be no one, literally no one at the party, so we'd basically be rehearsing in someone's living room or a backyard. We played some real shows, but it was like that pay to play era, so you'd have to sell the tickets to your friends, you have to sell a certain amount of tickets to be able to play, go around physically selling tickets to people, which sucks, and we'd play with metal bands like Skitzo and Violence and all these kind of Bay Area metal bands. Yeah, we'd play wherever, anywhere. Nothing good, though. No really good shows. We did play with Green Day on the Kerplunk album, which is cool because they were starting to blow up, and so playing with them was a big deal. We got to play with Job Breaker and Sam I Am, so we played some cool shows.

Speaker 1:
[31:52] Then how long after that does Loose Change form?

Speaker 2:
[31:57] Like less than a year after that, after we formed Influence 13.

Speaker 1:
[32:03] With Loose Change, I know Dave was when he was on the podcast, he was saying like, yeah, it was rough for us because we were behind the times, which is what he said, like the sound they were playing, the type of hardcore they wanted to play was not in step with the sound that people necessarily wanted to hear in the Bay Area specifically. Did you guys go over better because the sound you're doing, like I love Loose Change records, but like, it's like, it's more in keeping with Sam I Am and Green Day and Crimshorn.

Speaker 2:
[32:35] Yeah. I mean, I always loved pop punk from the earliest iterations of it. The sentence, I guess, would be the kind of precursor to all the stuff we were doing. And so that kind of music was obviously huge in the 90s. And we were just doing it because we loved it. And me and Sean and like that was Screeching Weasel, Peg Boy, like all those bands was just like, we got to do a band like this because this is what we listen to.

Speaker 1:
[33:10] I love that stuff too. And one of the worst reactions I've received on this show was when I had Pinhead Gunpowder on. And I made the mistake of referring to Crimpshrine as being like a pioneer of a pop punk sound. And both Billy and Aaron freaked out.

Speaker 2:
[33:30] Okay, well, what was the argument? Cause I mean, illuminating.

Speaker 1:
[33:33] They were telling me that it was a bullshit made up thing by the media post green day. And they were offended because they were like, no one was ever a punk, a pop punk band. Everyone was just a punk band. And you know, and I'm like, no, no, it was a style. Like, and I'm like, I'm like, it's referred to as a style, like predating this period that we're talking about too. I think there's references to the Buzzcocks being a quote unquote pop punk band. And it was, yeah. And I didn't mean it in any sort of like antagonistic way, but it definitely was taken as something that I, it felt like it had been used in a negative way so many times that there was a carried trauma.

Speaker 2:
[34:11] I mean, labels, especially musical labels, especially if you're the one being labeled, it always kind of sucks. I mean, I have much experience with this, so I can understand that. No one wants to be, no matter who you are, you don't want to be labeled the thing that everyone calls you generally. So but it's a, it's a convenient label. I mean, Crimshrine to me, I would say pop punk. I mean, it's got elements of both. Whatever you want to call it, it was great. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:38] And like, and I mean, and I only mean it to distinguish it from a sonic approach where, you know, it's like what a neurosis would be doing at that.

Speaker 2:
[34:45] Or filth. It's like, it's not filth. It's still punk, but it's not bad. It's not neurosis.

Speaker 1:
[34:51] Yeah. And I feel like, you know, certainly in a post green day world where now it's used as a marketing term or has been used and misused as a marketing term for so long that it's lost that sort of like innocent connotation that people have. But I think also now like it's become like such an influence onto kids, like that there's like bands that are like, we want to be a pop punk band. And I think there was even back when I was a kid.

Speaker 2:
[35:18] Yeah. I mean, I'll always have the most love for that style of music, whatever you want to call it. Like, you know, I love melody and I love punk. So to me, it was just something that I was really in track to.

Speaker 1:
[35:29] Well, you wound up on one of the mechas for that sound for me, Shredder Records.

Speaker 2:
[35:34] Yeah. Shredder Records.

Speaker 1:
[35:37] I feel like Shredder doesn't get as much credit for kind of putting out so many... Well, obviously the Jawbreaker stuff, but I feel like they don't get as much credit as certainly a Lookout or a very small even... There's other labels that I think get... But Shredder put out so many great things. Those comps are unbelievable.

Speaker 2:
[35:57] Yeah. I mean, we were on a couple of Shredder comps and it was a big deal for us because we were just such a small band and the fact that Mel would put... And Mel was such a cool dude, too. That he would put us out and we did our first... Or we did a seven-inch... I guess that's the only thing we really did on Shredder besides the comps. We did a seven-inch on Shredder and it was like we recorded in the studio where Jawbreaker did Unfun, which was... Unfun was like one of my top... Still to this day, one of my top records of all time. So that alone was so exciting. And then Nicky Parasite from the Parasites like kind of produced it. I don't know how much production was going on, but that was exciting. I really loved the Parasites. It was another great Shredder band. So yeah, it was a really cool experience.

Speaker 1:
[36:43] Yeah. I fucking loved the Parasites so much.

Speaker 2:
[36:46] They're so good.

Speaker 1:
[36:48] There's a lot of pop, you know, once again, I'm here, I'm going to get, you know, I feel like I'm in a safe space to use it. Pop punk bands that like from that sort of pre era, like Pink Lincolns, Parasites, like a lot of bands that were kind of like finding this sort of like sound then that I've, there's just so many great records that are kind of like a little bit forgotten now, I think.

Speaker 2:
[37:10] Yeah. Like one that I always said, an East Coast one is Westin. I love Westin.

Speaker 1:
[37:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:15] Like that should be, Got Beat Up is one of the best pop punk records ever. Like that should be up there with My Brain Hurts or anything else, or Milo Goes to College.

Speaker 1:
[37:24] Yeah, definitely. Westin and it's funny, like Westin and Digger.

Speaker 2:
[37:31] Nineties was a very feckoned era for that kind of pop punk that I love.

Speaker 1:
[37:37] It was such a great, like it's only I think comparable to like maybe the 60s garage rock boom in terms of, and maybe the like soul boom as well, like where you had a period where there's just so much underground music or like non-mainstream labels, non-major label production that's going on. Like how many thousands of seven inches were still coming out at a time when no one's pressing vinyl?

Speaker 2:
[38:03] Yeah, I mean, and there was so many little unsung bands that, you know, like Jolt. I love Jolt. Like one of my favorite pop punk bands. Another one, I got the seven inch right here behind me. I got to give some love to this band, One Man Running. This is one of the best. If you've never heard this, this is one of the best pop punk releases of all time in my opinion.

Speaker 1:
[38:30] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[38:30] And they, this is, they had two songs on a lookout comp and they had this stress seven inch and that's it. And the only releases they had.

Speaker 1:
[38:41] Are they on the pork one or like a?

Speaker 2:
[38:44] Yeah, a can of pork. I think they have one song on that. And this is on Curb Dog Records, which is another great local record label, which Influence 13 tried to get on that record label. I think early AFI tried to get on that record label because they were putting out like the coolest kind of underground pop punk and punk. But yeah, you should get your hands on one of these because this is a really cool disc.

Speaker 1:
[39:06] Yeah, every time I go to the Bay Area, it's just like there's just so many cool random seven inches that I'm like, oh shit, I've never heard of this or something that's been on the want list. Because it's just like it kind of becomes a punk capital in the 90s. Like it's certainly everything kind of focuses there's so many labels, their distribution places, like the labels were running through plus everything Mortem's doing. And it's interesting because Larry Livermore, when he was on here, credits it all to like Faith No More and the Faith No More kind of explosion that happened. And it was like, yeah, Nirvana was, it didn't really affect us in the way it affected everyone else because we already kind of had everything going from Faith No More.

Speaker 2:
[39:52] Oh, cool. That's interesting. I didn't know that.

Speaker 1:
[39:54] Yeah, it's kind of like a weird take to think. But then you feel like, oh yeah, Green Day and Nirvana both are putting out their records at the same time.

Speaker 2:
[40:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[40:04] It's like parallel.

Speaker 2:
[40:06] Yeah. We covered Smells Like Teen Spirit. My Influence 13 did when it came out because it was just like, you know, it was, you know, that song swept the nation, swept the world. So we had to take a shot at it. It was really bad.

Speaker 1:
[40:21] Well, you know, you certainly had to, you know, win over those parties. You know, you're not going to win them over if you're doing like a CapCas cover or something.

Speaker 2:
[40:30] We would always put the Capul's Casualties part in the cover. Like we covered Unchained Melody, but then it has a blast beat part at the end. No matter what we covered, it had to have the blast beat part of it.

Speaker 1:
[40:41] That's awesome. So who ran Key Lime Records?

Speaker 2:
[40:48] I think that was, I mean, you know, ran. That wasn't really a real record label, I think, I think it was Jeff's kind of thing.

Speaker 1:
[40:57] They put out a CD last year, an AFI CD last year or something. I saw.

Speaker 2:
[41:02] Yeah. I think that there's been some kind of releases that are not okay by the band.

Speaker 1:
[41:12] You know, without getting into details about everything there, you guys have had a real rough go of record labels. For the pre you joining the band experience, I mean too. Then certainly you joining the band, there were some bumpy roads in that. I feel like there's always that argument, certainly like the Steve Albini argument, like don't sign a major label, they will fuck you over. I think AFI could write a pretty good counter essay about how indie labels can also fuck you over.

Speaker 2:
[41:48] Yeah. I mean, we've actually had pretty great experiences on major labels, and all the drama was, well, my perspective was on an indie label, so yeah, the opposite.

Speaker 1:
[42:02] Yeah. Even before you join the band, it's like the things we're talking about and certainly the stuff with Wingnut Records as well. There's a lot of not great experiences on the indie side to make you want to stay necessarily out of this loyalty to these people.

Speaker 2:
[42:25] Yeah. The Wingnut thing, I don't think, at least didn't have any long-lasting effects. It was just like, I think compared to the stuff that happened after that, that was a minor blip, even though I wasn't in the band at the time, but I was very close friends with those guys at the time, so luckily that one didn't have much ramifications.

Speaker 1:
[42:49] Well, going back to a much more pleasant label experience, with Shredder, the first seven inch is called Lucky Dog. Is that in reference to Lucky from 15?

Speaker 2:
[43:01] No. It's just funny because I don't think we... One must have known... Because we had Swain's first bike ride, played the shit out of that. It must have been around the same time, but the dog on the cover of that seven inch is our friend Alexa Dye's dog, and the dog's name was Lucky. So it was totally unrelated somehow.

Speaker 1:
[43:24] Very weird. Yeah, because I was thinking, you must have known him because he's roading for Green Day, I think even before 15 even or something.

Speaker 2:
[43:32] We didn't know him, but like I say, I don't know when Swain's first bike ride came out. But if it was around that time, then we would have been aware, I guess, but looking at the cover of the album and seeing who's in the band.

Speaker 1:
[43:44] It's like a Cheetah Chrome motherfuckers, Cheetah Chrome from the Dead Boys thing, where Cheetah Chrome motherfuckers, the Italian hardcore bands claim they never heard of Cheetah Chrome.

Speaker 2:
[43:54] They just came up with the name Cheetah Chrome independently?

Speaker 1:
[43:56] Yeah, just completely out of their mind.

Speaker 2:
[43:59] I guess it could happen.

Speaker 1:
[44:00] Cheetah Chrome motherfuckers, sounds good. Got some good phonics going on there or something. Then you guys are also on Loose Change. I told you we're going to talk a lot about Loose Change.

Speaker 2:
[44:13] Yeah, I never talk about Loose Change.

Speaker 1:
[44:15] You're on Cold Front Records, which is another really super fucking cool label.

Speaker 2:
[44:19] Yeah, Brett. Brett was a huge fan of Loose Change. It was nice because he's just one of those dudes that was like, ran it out of his apartment. It's just a very small operation, but he's like, I love your music. I really want to put a record out. He's like, we did that Fire It Up CD album with him. To pay for the recording, he had a Marshall half stack of his band he was in. He basically gave it to the engineer to pay for our album. He was putting up his own possessions to make our record happen. It was cool and you could tell that he was really devoted to the idea of our band.

Speaker 1:
[45:09] It's interesting because it's all the smaller labels and the people that are doing it, that are losing money on themselves, they're seemingly the most generous sometimes with music. It's like when there's money on the table, all of a sudden, that's when the weirdness starts happening.

Speaker 2:
[45:28] I guess that's the difference between doing it for the love and doing it for the money. These people in these small records, labels like Mel Shredder and Brett Coldfront, they were doing it for the love. I don't think the money ever even really came into it.

Speaker 1:
[45:42] Yeah. You had an interesting perspective, I imagine, until you joined AFI as watching as this band that, once again, I'm just going on what Davy said, was not necessarily liked in the Bay Area, it suddenly become the main band, even pre-Black Sails, it seems, in-

Speaker 2:
[46:02] Oh yeah. Once again, because I was good friends with those guys and I was a fan, I moved to Berkeley in 1994 to go to the university. At that point, AFI and Screw32 were like the local heroes. They were like the two biggest bands in the scene. That not being liked thing, I think was pretty brief. They were very quickly, very liked. Well prior to me joining the band, they were pretty big in the Bay Area at least.

Speaker 1:
[46:39] I kind of love that era of the Bay Area too, where it was like Screw32, AFI, and I guess like Swingin Utters would also be dead and gone.

Speaker 2:
[46:48] Yeah, great bands. Those Creeps on Candy. What other bands were happening at that time? I mean, Redemption 87 had started at that point. I guess Filth wasn't around anymore. But yeah, Swingin Utters, man. Those two, I mean, the EP, those two albums are just incredible. When Streets of San Francisco came out, I just played that incessantly. Such a good album.

Speaker 1:
[47:15] Yeah, I was listening to it the other day. It's like one of the perfect records from that era. Like it's just perfectly produced. Like Lars did that, I guess he did the Union 13, the first Dropkick Murphys and A Business, the business comeback record around then. And all four of them sound fucking awesome.

Speaker 2:
[47:37] Yeah, he knows that sound inside and out for sure.

Speaker 1:
[47:40] Yeah, it was really dialed in perfectly. And I think Ken Casey from Dropkick when he was on, he's very heated at fat records for the way the next record turned out.

Speaker 2:
[47:52] Yeah, I mean, I love that record. I understand fat records was a very polarizing thing at that point. I remember it being like a very big deal in the scene that they were on fat records because they were such heroes of the Bay Area scene. But I didn't give a shit. I mean, I never had that mentality. Like I love Jawbreaker when they signed to a major label. I love that record. I mean, dear you, I had no issues with anything like that. So I didn't really buy into that bullshit. I thought the production was different. Whether or not it's worse, I guess that's a matter of taste, but I thought it was a great record.

Speaker 1:
[48:28] Given that like the Bay Area is so antagonistic to the major labels in that era, did you guys have to deal with it when you guys signed? Or is it kind of petered off a little bit after the Green Day stuff?

Speaker 2:
[48:41] It had not only changed things and started shifting, but also we were not a local band anymore. We were kind of like, we weren't just playing in the Bay Area all the time. We played in the Bay Area as much as we played in New York or anywhere else. So even if people had a problem or some people had a problem, it wouldn't really affected us.

Speaker 1:
[49:04] Yeah, had you guys been, because there was like a time where you guys couldn't play the Gilman anymore because of just popularity, right?

Speaker 2:
[49:12] Yeah, I mean, we signed to a major in 2002. So at that point, it would have been kind of crazy for us to play Gilman because it would have been such an underplay.

Speaker 1:
[49:26] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[49:26] I mean, we probably would have done it, but I don't think it really came up.

Speaker 1:
[49:31] It's interesting because AFI is a band that I find is taken up so differently depending on what era you were first exposed to the band, and also geographically where you lived in that era when you were exposed to the band. Like I went and saw, you must have, I'm trying to remember if it was 99 or 2000. I went to Santa Cruz and saw AFI playing DBS opened. I was just blown away because on the East Coast, it was much more subsumed into the epiphat pop punk world. But on the West Coast, it was crazy moshing and kids doing insane stage dive. One of the biggest circle pits I've ever seen in my life. It was a really different fan base, it seemed like, or at least the way the fan base interacted with you guys was very different.

Speaker 2:
[50:27] That first, the Black Sails Tour, which was 99, was very much, most of the places we went, hardcore kids. At least in my memory, it was not epiphat fat records scene type of kids, it was like hardcore kids.

Speaker 1:
[50:47] Yeah, also, I guess Toronto is different. Canada is different than America, so I'm only basing it on Toronto.

Speaker 2:
[50:54] Are you talking about that show that was at the Cathedral?

Speaker 1:
[50:57] That Cathedral show was fucking crazy.

Speaker 2:
[50:59] That was a great show.

Speaker 1:
[51:01] That was one of my favorite shows ever, that Cathedral show. And I think that was because it was also like, by that point, it was already clear that you guys were kind of like, leveling up in terms of like, audience size and attention. It felt like that was probably a bit of an underplay for you guys at that point.

Speaker 2:
[51:21] That was on Black Sails, wasn't it?

Speaker 1:
[51:23] Yeah. Oh no, it was after Black Sails, because I was living in-

Speaker 2:
[51:26] Oh, it was.

Speaker 1:
[51:26] I stole my friend's copy of Black Sails before I went to England for a year and stole his copy. I remember listening to Black Sails on the plane and it just came out and being like, holy shit, this is insane. So it must have been after that, because I'd moved back to Toronto by that point, but surely you're after.

Speaker 2:
[51:45] In my mind, that was the last show on the Black Sails tour, but that was a long-ass time ago, so.

Speaker 1:
[51:53] Yeah, but it was, it stands out very vividly in my memory, that show.

Speaker 2:
[51:57] Me too, I mean, that was a great show, Hot As, I remember.

Speaker 1:
[52:00] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[52:00] It's one of those where the sweat and condensation is just raining down from the ceiling.

Speaker 1:
[52:05] And it was also one of the first shows, because Toronto, there's a little bit of provincial quality to Toronto. And so we didn't necessarily have that sort of crazy style moshing yet. Certainly people weren't necessarily head walking at all. And that was one of the first shows I can remember just kids head walking all through, like from the front of the room to the back of the room type vibe. It was nuts how packed it was.

Speaker 2:
[52:31] Yeah. Toronto was, I mean, I guess we started playing Opera House after that, but those shows are always incredible. It was always such a joy to go there.

Speaker 1:
[52:39] What was it like the first time you guys, well, you would have played the Opera House, but for them going back to the Opera House after the AFI riot, was there like a weird vibe in the band?

Speaker 2:
[52:53] Not really. I mean, I had heard the stories and it was going to play there. Probably even at the Cathedral, it was like, oh, well, maybe some of these people could show up or something could happen, but it wasn't really like a fear. It was just like this happened. There might be some blowback, but probably not.

Speaker 1:
[53:13] Yeah. I guess they had played Toronto at least one time in between that Cathedral show and then.

Speaker 2:
[53:20] Yeah. Also, those kinds of things happening in shows, it wasn't like that out of the ordinary. I mean, we weren't like a huge riot band. A lot of riots that now at AFI shows, but just when the scene we came up in and just how things were, it wasn't like that was that crazy. No.

Speaker 1:
[53:41] It's only reading that Gilman history book that I really got an understanding like, it's a very dramatic scene.

Speaker 2:
[53:50] I mean, the Bay Area scene in general was very, very chaotic. Going to see like agnostic front in the 80s and having at The Stone, which is like where so many great shows happened when I started going to shows and having like all of the white power bikers, Hells Angels and Skinheads there and like Riot breaking out immediately. It's like, it's like exploited GBH, all of these crazy shows where it was just like, that was what happened. There was a riot, a crazy brawl, some kind of insane chaos. It's just like, that's how it was.

Speaker 1:
[54:27] And then Roger told me they played the Gilman the next day after that show.

Speaker 2:
[54:32] Oh, really?

Speaker 1:
[54:33] Got invited by Neurosis and kind of like jumped on the bill. And it was an early controversy, I guess, of the Gilman.

Speaker 2:
[54:40] Oh, yeah. I mean, that was right after he got out of prison. And I remember like he had long hair and he came out, he had his shirt off and he had the crucified skin. And I was just like, whoa, this guy is crazy. Like this guy's intense. That was when Craig was in the band. And yeah, it was like immediately a riot and like they probably played half the show. So it was a great show, though.

Speaker 1:
[55:02] Did Verbal Abuse play that show too?

Speaker 2:
[55:06] I think it was Slam-Bodians, which was like a local kind of thrash band that played every show. I don't remember if Verbal Abuse was on it. I don't know. I can't remember. Possibly.

Speaker 1:
[55:22] What kind of bands would those guys gravitate to, maybe Slam-Bodians, like the kind of the Nazi guys, like was there like a Nazi music scene also kind of running parallel?

Speaker 2:
[55:32] I don't think so. I mean, White Power Music was always really bad. So I think that they had to come to, and they wanted to come to the shows that were big because that was where they were going to get to throw their weight around. So they came, certainly some, I remember seeing DRI and they're being so many skinheads there. But like I said, they came to MDC, which was like they're clearly not wanted there. And they came, I saw Fugazi and I don't really remember them being there, which is surprising. But you know, I saw Slayer and there were like clansmen there in the Bay Area, like dudes with clan tattoos and shit. So like, yeah, they came out to anything.

Speaker 1:
[56:20] There's also like a parallel kind of like, you know, like certainly anti-fascist sort of oil thing that's beginning to bubble up like a sort of a strong anti-fascist kind of skin and thing too, right?

Speaker 2:
[56:31] Yeah, that was always there too. Like when I saw the exploited at the stone, there was a big brawl between the sharp skins and the white power skins. And it was like, there were a lot of sharp skins there. And so it was like the skins, the white power skins would target the punks. Like if you had a mohawk or, you know, spiked leather jacket, they would target you. And so it was like the punks and the sharps would sort of band together to fight the skinheads. And we were like kids, so we were like, luckily not targeted. We were like not really involved, but you get fucked up in the pit. Those pits were crazy. Like when I went to the MDC, my first show, my shirt was immediately torn off in the pit, bloody nose. And so I had to like ride home in the back of a truck with no shirt on. But yeah, like luckily we were, just kind of flying under the radar.

Speaker 1:
[57:23] Yeah. With the moshing thing, it was definitely, definitely born out of wanting to hurt people. Like it feels like people can be like, no, no, it's not about that. And it's like, yeah, it might have evolved to a place where it's not about that, but it certainly Sid Vicious when he invented the pogo was trying to hurt people. He says it on the record.

Speaker 2:
[57:40] Yeah. It kind of just is also the excitement of the crowd. I'll tell you what, some of the most intense circle pits I've ever been in were at those early Green Day shows. They're playing pop punk. Yeah. Like at the Phoenix Theater and stuff. The circle pits would be as intense as any of the most heavy music I saw. It was just kids were so excited and it was such an energetic music that caused the chaos.

Speaker 1:
[58:09] I've also heard that Green Day was maybe not out of the gate when you first saw them, like Sweet Children era, but later on was like you could tell they were going to be big. They were popular and it provided a different kind of fan base than a normal punk show would.

Speaker 2:
[58:26] Yeah. Especially when Kerplunk came out, but even on the first record, I remember we were listening to Green Day right away. We loved that first record. You'd play it and the girls would be like, what is this? Can I borrow this? They never wanted to borrow your DK record or RKL or any of the other stuff. That was our first inclination. This has such a broad appeal. Everyone is loving this. I think we all knew that this was a different kind of band. Jawbreaker was great and one of my all-time favorites, but you didn't really get that feeling that they were going to be some massive sensation.

Speaker 1:
[59:10] Yeah. It's interesting. It wasn't until those guys were on the show, and I realized how deeply rooted they are to that New York sonic youth underground art scene world through Kembra Fowler and just playing those shows early on. I'm like, yeah, they do have an anti-mainstream art equality to them, where, like you're saying, Green Day, there's just like, it's just made to be enjoyed by everyone.

Speaker 2:
[59:40] Yeah, and I don't think Billy Joe was aiming to be some pop star. He just, that's what he loved to play and he was so good at it. Such a great songwriter. It was just kind of written in the stars that it would happen.

Speaker 1:
[59:54] Kind of look at Green Day versus like Nirvana and just like the two different bands and how they weathered success and also how their kind of respective punk scenes reacted to their success. Like I think obviously Green Day received this major backlash, but the immediate circle was tight. It seems.

Speaker 2:
[60:15] Yeah, I think Green Day had a similar. I think by the time they blew up so fast when they signed to the to a major that it didn't. I mean, they were probably sad that their old scene was turned their back on them, which would have sucked, because they came up in that scene. But they were immediately like for the world. It wasn't like they were still stuck playing in the Bay Area, and now everyone hated them. It was like, I don't think it affected them at such a level as maybe Jawbreaker, where they got, it's just gross. The backlash they got was gross.

Speaker 1:
[60:52] Yeah, and I've always wondered and I've, and it's, and I'm trying to maybe bill from Pinna Gunpowder brought it up even, that like, was it because Jawbreaker's not truly a local band? Like they're obviously beloved in the Bay Area at that point, and in the Bay Area, but they're also like an LA band, and they were also kind of briefly in New York. It's not like, it feels like, you know, when Jesse Lushas was on the show, like, you know, he still has vitriol towards Jawbreaker, but Green Day was okay. And I'm like, it feels like it's a lot of like, I don't know, it's like a lot of like hometown love that went into the Green Day success from the immediate circle. And they've also brought all the friends with them too, that, for the ride.

Speaker 2:
[61:39] Yeah, I guess everyone probably has their own perspective on it. Mine was kind of like Green Day, like I say, you kind of knew this was in the cards for them. So for them to sign to a major and blow up, it's like, how could it not happen? Whereas Jawbreaker was like an art band and so cool and the lyrics. And it was like, I guess it was more of a betrayal because it wasn't something that was written in the cards that it was going to blow up. It was something that maybe should have stayed underground in people's minds. And then, you know, then they signed and got all the backlash, none of the success. So that's just double painful.

Speaker 1:
[62:16] Yeah. It's interesting to think of what would have happened if they had stayed, because they weren't really a lookout band, right? They didn't really have that cool indie label that could be built around them to stay with. So it's interesting, what would have happened to them if they had signed? Yeah, or signed somewhere else, right?

Speaker 2:
[62:37] I don't know. I mean, I feel like they would have been maybe like a, I don't know, like a cool mid-level indie band. Yeah, like unless they start from the crypt or something, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[62:51] Well, yeah, but Rock from Eclipse signed to the major too, right? Like for a period.

Speaker 2:
[62:56] Yeah, I guess success wise, you know, just being like a band everyone like, you know, your mom doesn't know about, but it's like a cool band that like the cool people know about.

Speaker 1:
[63:06] I never had to worry about it being in a band and getting up and doing what I do on stage. But for a lot of friends that were faced with that choice and chose either to or not to do, now in retrospect, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't moment for your band, because eventually your scene is going to age out of you. And so this is your opportunity to kind of find a new scene and to expand your world, or you can kind of stay there and hope that people stick to your band, but the reality is people are going to change and the punk scene is certainly not going to ride with you forever.

Speaker 2:
[63:46] Now, and making decisions based on other people's idea of what you should be doing that don't even know you is definitely not a recipe for success. And unfortunately, the signing to the major has not worked out for so many bands, but I do think you got to take that leap and just see what happens. And I think it's worth just if you have that opportunity because it's better than regretting it and regretting having never at least tried. At least that's my opinion.

Speaker 1:
[64:15] It's got so much weight, especially at that age when we're all younger, that this is like a religion, right? Like we're all like adhering to these sort of like weird principles that someone said that may not have adhered to them themselves ultimately, or certainly some definitely have, like Ian McKay and Tim O'Hannon, I think went to the grave kind of by his principles. But you're also kind of like been given this doctrine throughout your teenage years that you're like, I can't do this. I shouldn't do this. I'm letting everyone around me down. Like we were talking about earlier how we all want attention because we're in punk rock. I think a lot of it's probably born out of the fact that there's a lot of insecurity in punk rock. So when people signed to the major label, there's like a personal attack felt. Like it's like you're leaving me to go, I'm not good enough for you anymore. This scene is not good enough for you. So it's like a hard thing to be faced with, I can imagine for bands. Like I guess you guys had already achieved success enough that maybe it was different, but like I could see why bands would wrestle with it.

Speaker 2:
[65:26] It was such a false doctrine though and such a zeitgeist thing because look at today, no one cares anymore if you sign to a major. People probably still have morals and they probably still have a code of ethics they adhere to, but it's not based on who your record label is. I think it was such a bandwagon that everyone jumped on, like major labels are bad and you're a sellout. Like the sellout thing was such a bandwagon thing. I think that's why it doesn't really exist anymore. You have to do something really egregious these days to be labeled a sellout. But back then, it was just like kids that didn't give a shit, didn't know, didn't have any code of ethics, they would call you a sellout just because that's what you're supposed to do. So it was a very hard time for bands like that, like Rancid Face, that major label question, and Jawbreaker obviously being the one that got the worst part of it that I can think of, at least from the Bay Area scene.

Speaker 1:
[66:25] Yeah, there was definitely backlash. There was that aggressive attack like you sold out, but then there's also that even worse thing that happened. And it certainly happened to bands from here that signed to major labels, where everyone just gives the shrug to your next record. And I feel like a lot of those records where music's gone kind of age pretty good, but at the time people were just like, no.

Speaker 2:
[66:51] Yeah, I think that's also a sign of the times. It's like, oh, this sounds too produced. I understand that to a certain extent, but I mean, Teriu is an incredible record. So, you know, and things like Pinkerton or Sam Amstine do a major label and put out what I think their record Clumsy, which is like a fucking great record. And everyone, like you said, it was like kind of a shrug thing, but that's a great record. And I think to this day is a great record. And people would have looked beyond this sort of surface level politics and just enjoyed these records for, I mean, Dear You has obviously stood the test of time.

Speaker 1:
[67:31] Yeah, Sam Amstine, we played with him recently with the Flatliners at the Flatliners Christmas show up here, and they were fucking unbelievable. Like still.

Speaker 2:
[67:41] I love that band.

Speaker 1:
[67:43] So good. And like, and like it's, it's weird because like they, they almost like pre-date or they're like, or the inception of the Gilman kind of scene. Certainly members were in other bands at the actual inception of the Gilman scene. But like the, they did the major label. They were on so many different labels over the years that it's hard to appreciate kind of the run that they had as a band. Like when Daryl from Snapcase was here, he was talking about how like, yeah, like meeting those guys and them talking about being friends with the Goo Goo dolls back in the day, back when the Goo Goo dolls were still like a punk and hardcore band. Like they were like doing the thing before the thing was really a thing.

Speaker 2:
[68:27] Yeah. It's nice to see a band like Sam I Am still putting out great music. I mean, they're still putting out great music and still going and they weren't destroyed by that whole major label part of their career. And yeah, definitely one of my all time favorites.

Speaker 1:
[68:50] When you guys did Black Sails, was there, because it was like, I guess it wasn't a sonic shift in any sort of major way because, but it feels like it's a great leap forward in the direction that was kind of being indicated. Was it sort of an immediate response where you guys knew that this was going to be a change for the band?

Speaker 2:
[69:11] Do you mean response from people that heard it when we released it?

Speaker 1:
[69:15] Yeah, certainly from people at the shows and coming to see you guys.

Speaker 2:
[69:20] Yeah, it was in that beginning era of message boards and all that, which had actually started happening on the previous AFI record, which before I was in the band and I would go on these message boards, and I'd be so angry because people would be talking shit about AFI, about Shut Your Mouth and this record sucks, and I'd be like, how dare these? I wasn't inoculated to trolls yet, and it was because it was so early. I'm like, these people on the internet are talking shit. How is this happening? Not realizing that that would come to define the world for the next several decades. But anyway, so there was some people, like every AFI record, it's like, this is different. This isn't very proud of you. And even at that point, it's like, this isn't shut your mouth. People that were talking shit about shut your mouth were now like, this isn't shut your mouth. But it really quickly caught on. And it was weird. We got these reviews in like metal magazines. Metal magazines were like, this is an incredible, we got like a 10 out of 10 on this one big metal magazine. And so it was being embraced more widely than maybe previously if I had been. And we did that first tour and it wasn't like we were selling out big venues, but it was the passion was was crazy. And we would go to these places like Minneapolis. We'd be, you know, the next day would be Minneapolis. And the guys in the band would be like, yeah, Minneapolis fucking sucks like Boston sucks like no, no one likes us there. Like it's going to suck. So I just want to warn you that it's going to suck. And we get there and just be like the most incredible show. So something had started shifting because of this record.

Speaker 1:
[71:00] Yeah, because as you mentioned before, it was a weird moment because the audience wasn't that epithet. And I'm just judging this from Toronto, like certainly in Toronto because of touring with Rancid and certainly coming through on shows, playing with good riddance and stuff like that. Like there was an audience that would come and see the band that was sort of this like, I guess, at this point, aging out of teens kind of skateboarder type crowd. But then there was like a much younger kind of hardcore scene that was also happening. And on that record, those kids were all out too. And then also just like lots of other kids, people were finding out about this record. And it was kind of crossing over. It was perceptible even to me as someone watching from the sidelines.

Speaker 2:
[71:42] Yeah, I think even that previous record, Shut Your Mouth and then the Fire Inside EP and End of Black Sails, the hardcore elements of those releases were so much more prevalent. And you look at Dave from that era, he's wearing the braids and the choker, and he looks like a hardcore kid. So we definitely, there's a lot more hardcore kids coming in to our fandom.

Speaker 1:
[72:10] Yeah, Dave was exing up too, I think early on at one point as well. And there was a straight edge kind of vibe around the band. And also hardcore was shifting at that point too. You know, like that AFI riot show Weston played, but also Lifetime played on Hello Bastards. And by the time they broke up, New Jersey's Best Dancers had come out. And I feel like that was such a like a tide change in hardcore and kind of like people embracing more melody and kind of like it begats so much stuff and obviously like major sonic shifts in punk. I feel like AFI also was kind of like those earlier records before this huge explosion were benefiting from that.

Speaker 2:
[72:56] Definitely. Yeah, there was bands like Ignite and stuff that were considered harker bands but were super melodic. And what we were doing was not that far off from that. It was like melodic punk with hardcore. So we kind of appealed to a kind of a broad base of people.

Speaker 1:
[73:14] Once again, the geographic thing, I think comes into play. And I bring this up on the show a few times, but on the East Coast, power violence, and I say this as a nerdy person, was nerd music. In the Bay Area, when you go there, it's sketchy graffiti dudes, hard partier type dudes. It's like there are certainly nerdy people that enjoy it, but it's also a lot harder of a scene that is enjoying that kind of music. And in the same way, I feel like East Coast hardcore, particularly in the early 90s, like the Born Against era, it was such a defined thing, and it was very DIY, almost like anti-enjoyment of the audience. You're not trying to bring anyone into this kind of thing. And obviously, it starts changing as we go through the 90s. You guys are kind of like riding that change as it's happening on the East Coast, almost, it seems.

Speaker 2:
[74:13] Yeah, we didn't... I guess we weren't really aware, so much aware of that. We were more, I guess, in spirit, more like youth crew, you know, like posse, inclusivity. Like, we're not trying to antagonize the audience. We're trying to include the audience.

Speaker 1:
[74:33] Yeah, which I feel is like definitely more of a West Coast mentality in punk at that point than it was on the East Coast mentality, where there's like a real deep bitterness. You know, it's like the lack of sunshine or the cold. I'm sorry, in particular, the Northeast, but yeah, like, and it's not even just confined to the US. I think it's in Canada, too. There's like this difference between the way Vancouver stuff happens versus Toronto stuff.

Speaker 2:
[75:02] I appreciate that too, you know, that kind of flipper mentality of just like, you know, trying to make you leave the venue. I want you to be so dismayed of what we're doing here that you don't want to even be here.

Speaker 1:
[75:16] You know, what we were talking about earlier, like that's what we all want to do in the beginning when we get into punk rock, right? Like we're like, I want to make everyone that I don't like leave. And then I feel like because there is a path to popularity at that point, like you're saying AFI got eventually very popular there. So there's like, oh, there's a way to bring more people in. And there's like an upside to this where on the East Coast, it's still like, no, 20 years in, still playing the same 15 fucking people in this basement. I'm bitter as shit.

Speaker 2:
[75:45] To me, I think I was influenced by being in Redemption 87 and the horror scene where it was, you feel that exchange of energy with the crowd. And once you feel that, that passion for what you're doing, coming from people, I don't understand how you could ever want to have the opposite. Cause there's nothing like that feeling and to want to have the opposite of that, I just, I could never be in that headspace, I don't think.

Speaker 1:
[76:14] It's interesting though, cause there are people that are, like you brought up Flipper, but then you look at like obviously Gigi Allen being the most extreme. But even like Choke from Slapshot, when he was on the show talking about like, just wanting that, like, just saying this shit to piss off the crowd. Like Seth Putnam from Anal Cunt, right? Like these people that are almost like pariahs, like just give themselves over to like being hated because they're getting the, I guess they're getting the charge from that.

Speaker 2:
[76:41] Yeah. I mean, there's, I appreciate that kind of meat men kind of thing where you're, it's either coming from a place of just anger and confrontation or some extreme level of comedy.

Speaker 1:
[76:56] Mental health, mental health might play a part too.

Speaker 2:
[76:58] And mental health. Yeah, I can understand that. I appreciate that because that, you know, that's what the Sex Pistols were doing. I mean, it has the deepest roots in punk. But I think both things are equally valid. And, and, you know, whatever, whatever fulfills you as an artist, you know, I got no problem with it.

Speaker 1:
[77:17] And I think going back to what you said, like that's what I think draws so much of us to this thing. Initially is the idea of like alienating the people around you. Like they don't fucking understand this. It's my own thing. But then as you get older in this and you're like aging through your 20s, you're like, how do I, how do I exist in this world and bring the lessons I learned from this thing with me? Carry them for the rest of my life. But like, also I can't, you know, like none of these people live, Choke obviously has had a very long life and Knock on Woodie will have continued to have a long life. But like Seth's dead, Gigi's dead, like sadly two members of Flipper are passed away. Like there's like a, there's like a, it's not a path to longevity with this sort of like, just going from anger.

Speaker 2:
[78:08] I guess it depends on how, I mean, Gigi obviously, I don't think he, there was any possibility of him living to an old age, you know, it was just too on the margins and you know, like a, so Duce and people like that, it's just like they were living this, they were on this path that was going to just go one place. But you know, if you die of cancer or something, that's different, even if you're in the most confrontational band, but you die of cancer, I mean, you can't say that's because of like what you're saying on stage.

Speaker 1:
[78:37] Very true. Yeah, no, I definitely, and I think, I don't know what Seth did pass away from, it wasn't cancer though, it was a drug overdose, I believe as well. I'm mistaken. I will correct that in the intro and I think, sadly, I think Flipper as well, there were some cases of drug overdose and Alduche there's a lot of conversation we could have around Alduche's death and I'm not quite on the Fat Mike side of the conspiracy theory side of things, but yeah, like I think it was no doubt involved in sort of like living on the margins and yeah, did you see that? I mean, go on, sorry.

Speaker 2:
[79:12] Go ahead.

Speaker 1:
[79:13] Did you see that Frankie Sidebottom movie that came out a couple of years ago?

Speaker 2:
[79:17] About Alduche?

Speaker 1:
[79:18] No, about Frankie Sidebottom. He's like a British Liverpool performer.

Speaker 2:
[79:22] No.

Speaker 1:
[79:23] It's really interesting and it's got a great cast, but Frankie Sidebottom was like a new wave performer who wore a big paper mache mask his whole time. It was like riding in the middle of the new wave, but his music was decidedly like a Camp Vaudevillie vibe to it too. There's a great novelization of the script written by the guy who wrote the script about Frankie Sidebottom. He's got a quote in there. It's like, the margins are always the most interesting part, but living in the margins, you always risk falling off the page. I'm probably brutalizing it with a paraphrase, but these people just surrendered themselves to the margins, and yeah, all fell off the page.

Speaker 2:
[80:02] Yeah. It's the oldest story in the book. Growing up, the town that I'm from, I have so many friends that have died, and people that were living on the margins, not involved in the punk scene, but just it's easy to live on the margins regardless of... People from many walks of life having that life where it's just like you see it happening, you see the future, and it's just unfortunate. I guess I and my band were fortunate enough to... We wanted to be other, but we didn't want to be self-destructive.

Speaker 1:
[80:42] Yeah. It's only... Once again, I talked about it earlier, but the idea that people from different time frames take AFI up differently. It's obviously a huge band for me, getting into it as a young person, getting into this music, but then I'm recording vocals in the studio with Dylan, who does all my vocals with me, and he's younger than me. I was calling Dave to set up, Dave coming back on the show last time, and he's like, are you talking to Dave Havoc? I'm like, yeah. I'm like, oh shit, this is his nirvana. Because he was slightly younger, and so it's like for a whole generation, you guys, because I think punk is people that were all on the margins in our own little ways, and this was a place that provides us an off-ramp from the margins, or at least a way to live on the margins and not fall off that page, to just crush this metaphor to death. But for a lot of kids, you guys became the on-ramp to this thing. He's obviously very much involved in punk and plays in all these punk and hardcore bands, and it's the bands that ultimately did make that risk or that jump, and maybe you fail and it doesn't happen on the major label, which is a lot of bands, but if it does happen, you wind up becoming the next generation's entryway to this thing, like the suicidal tendencies for the next group of kids.

Speaker 2:
[82:15] Yeah, which is crazy and not something I ever really think that much about, but you meet some dude or some woman at a show that's like an adult, and they're like, you were right. When I was in high school, you were so important, and you're just like, damn, I'm old. But also, it's very fulfilling to be that band.

Speaker 1:
[82:35] And also just like the way culture shifted in the wake of AFI, and I'm sure this is going to lump you in with a bunch of stuff. You don't want to be lumped in much like the pop punk thing with Green Day. But like the aesthetic shift that that brought to what gets labeled emo, what's now also labeled post-punk, post-Hardcore. I think I've heard people call it now, too. So that whatever that scene is, like the aesthetic and the the sonic influence you guys had on that, like in the way that kind of there's like emo trap now. Like there's it really did kind of like cause like a whole cultural change in kind of like the wake of you guys being on MTV for a bunch of these kids.

Speaker 2:
[83:18] Yeah, it's interesting that I don't I feel like AFI is not when you're talking about aesthetic or sound at AFI people don't you know, often don't credit us with being one of the genesis of that thing. Which is strange. Not that I care. Not that I'm looking for that, but you know, I just really hear it very often, you know.

Speaker 1:
[83:44] No, and it's funny because like my friend and I are working on a project right now and we're researching a lot of different things for it and he was and he's reading this book and I'm like where does it start and it's about the mainstreaming of emo type thing and I'm like where does it start and he's like oh with Follow or My Chemical Romance and I'm like that's crazy. Like AFI had been on MTV years before that and like the what was misogynistically became Guy Liner at a certain point, but the idea of like wearing makeup, you didn't see bands necessarily doing that, like unless they're dressing like vampires in Ink and Dagger and that influences like that changes all post-AFI and like the all these bands.

Speaker 2:
[84:29] Yeah, you would think and like I'm not one to say what our influence is. That's not for me to decide really, but definitely there was a, especially Dave and his look. He of course got it from other places like Dave Vainion and stuff, but those people that came after us weren't getting it from Dave Vainion, they're probably getting it from Dave. There's other things like we were the first band, as far as I am aware, that did the online mystery thing when you're promoting a record, like the mysterious clues and go here and get this thumb drive, which became a big thing for a while. Nine Inch Nails did it right after us, and I think they get credit for it, but we never get credit for doing that, which is interesting.

Speaker 1:
[85:17] It's interesting though, Justice from Trapped Under Rice and Angel Dust, when he was on the podcast, we're talking about Nirvana. I'm like, yeah, I love Nirvana, but at the same time, what they were doing wasn't completely revolutionary. When you look at the wipers and you look at the source material they're pulling from the Melvins, and he's like, yeah, but those bands were never going to be what Nirvana was. Nirvana is the master of it because what they could do is take other ideas and synthesize it into something that made it completely consumable to a mass audience. And it's kind of true. It's never the pioneers of stuff that get the credit for it. It's always the people that kind of found a way to make it more acceptable, as big as the strokes are in people's mind. The killers found a way to make it streamline that thing or streamline Interpol maybe or whatever it was and make it huge. And that's, I think, you see it happen time and time again.

Speaker 2:
[86:19] Yeah, I mean, that would make sense. But we if we had stayed an underground band, but we did that and then also became this incredibly mainstream band.

Speaker 1:
[86:29] But I think you guys go in me. I mean, you came off, but I'm hot now on this topic.

Speaker 2:
[86:34] But it's just, you know, like, it'd be one thing if I once again, let me preface this by saying I don't need any credit for influencing anyone. Like, please, I don't need that. It's not necessary. I'm not looking for it. It's just an interesting sort of intellectual topic.

Speaker 1:
[86:51] Absolutely. This is what I live for. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[86:54] Like if we would have stayed that small band, then I can understand. Like most people aren't going to reference the wipers. That's not something that everyone knows about. Or even the Melvins for that matter. So if like AFI had remained that kind of like little Nitro records band, you could be like, okay, well, when you're talking about my Comical Romance or The Used or whatever, you're not going to mention AFI because maybe you don't even know AFI. But because we became this huge band with that aesthetic still in place, to not at least say that like there must be some kind of correlation. This would be kind of strange.

Speaker 1:
[87:30] Well, here's my thing is what you guys did in the same way like these bands stayed underground. You made going mainstream from the underground. That was like, no one had done that smoothly or tastefully in a way that, and I think a lot of those best practices that you guys introduced, bands that would make that move next, or bands that were already playing the game, shifting their way to follow those. I think the way you kept your fan club and the insanely rabid fan club in a way, I think a lot of bands tried to, I know bands that directly tried to copy that when they made that move too. The way that it was still like, it wasn't like you shifted your sound when you got to the major label. Like the sound was the way it was going, and that was clear to everyone that would follow the band. I think a lot of bands do that now as opposed to prior to that, where there was be that sort of try to make it more polished, or completely reinvent the wheel, and change your band sound, to try and sound like the Red Hot Chili Peppers, or U2, or whatever it would be, right? I think that's what a lot of people kind of copy from you, and then definitely the aesthetics. And like, no, it's really not underground, but I think you guys being on MTV broke down the barrier. Like I think about, I didn't get to go to this Warped Tour, but there's that Warped Tour 2001, maybe 2000, you guys played the Sky Dome in Toronto.

Speaker 2:
[89:00] 2001, we did the whole Warped Tour that year.

Speaker 1:
[89:03] Yeah, and which, I got, imagine you got stories from that. But like, Davey was walking around, people were like, yeah, Davey's crazy, Davey's walking around with a parasol, he's wearing makeup and his hair's teased up. And like, these are like friends telling me this. And then fast forward, how many years on the Warped Tour, and every fucking band's doing that aesthetic.

Speaker 2:
[89:21] Yeah, I mean, once again, I don't want to be like, hey, we started all this, like makeup, that's AFI. Like, but it should be, I would say it would be in the conversation at least. And once again, we take it from, like that early day of, before I was even in the band, it was very Dave Ainean. I mean, you can look and see direct parallels and wearing makeup also, from the hair metal influence and Bowie and all these things. So it's not like we invented this stuff.

Speaker 1:
[89:52] No, but you brought it into punk. And I say this, I've also said it to Justin from the Locusts, and I said to my friend Jason, who played in the Orchid. At the time, punk and hardcore was very much like the Protestant austerity approach. Like there wasn't like, you know, like you talked about Dave, how Dave used to dress. Like, and he always had a little bit of flair, like the suspenders and all that kind of stuff. But like you wore sweatshirts, you wore skate shoes, like it was very, you wore the same clothes on stage that you wore off stage. It was like that sort of presentation of things. And then there are bands kind of in the late 90s that start styling their hair or paying attention to their clothing. And obviously they've taken up in a super negative way by the next generation. But I feel like AFI did bring sort of this goth vibe to the party. And there are other bands like, you know, Engendag are doing this, but not like in the same sort of aesthetic way, not like you're saying, going back to Dave Vainion and like Bauhaus and kind of that world of goth stuff, like that wasn't really happening. I think that's AFI bringing that into the world.

Speaker 2:
[90:54] I don't remember anyone looking, doing what Dave was doing in, you know, the late 90s, early 2000s. I don't remember any of our peers doing that. I mean, there probably was, but I don't remember it.

Speaker 1:
[91:08] I remember talking to Jesse from DBS at that Santa Cruz show. And he's like, I couldn't believe how Dave looks. This is in like 99, 2000 kind of era. And he's like, I couldn't believe it. Like it's just so shocking. Yeah, because no one looked like that back then.

Speaker 2:
[91:24] Yeah, I mean, we went on that tour, sick of it all, indecision, hot water music, AFI tour. You know, Dave is like in white face with like crazy makeup, lipstick, PVC, like full PVC outfit, and we're sick of it all. It's like most people there are there to see sick of it all. So it's like all these kind of like hardcore tough guys, and they're like looking, and it was a good tour. It wasn't like we were getting abuse. People were so shocked by him, and then we come out and we're playing this fast aggressive music. I think people are just like, they couldn't fuck with us because they were so taken aback by us.

Speaker 1:
[92:06] And also the music started sounding so epic at that point too, where it's just like, yeah, like it's fast and it's still like, you're still doing that hardcore thing, but there's also like these like buildups and sort of this epicness that's kind of coming in around that point where it's just like, especially in those small rooms, like no one, as great as these bands are, like no one sounds like that.

Speaker 2:
[92:28] Yeah, you know, I think as being a songwriter, my coming from hardcore, like before I joined AFI, like the band I was in before, I was still on Loose Change, but you know, I was in Redemption, so big like epic buildups is a very hardcore thing. But also I was, you know, seeing Rancid early on, like I started seeing Rancid like even before Lars was in the band, so like I was immediately like on board. It's like that first seven inch. Remember Jeff Kresge actually played me that seven inch right when it came out and the first song on it, I just blew my mind. Like looking back now, it's, you might be like, well, why would this blow your mind? But I was like, it was so fucking good to this day. Like one of those watershed moments where I'm like, what the fuck is this? And they were so good at that explosive chorus thing, where it would be like this thrashy kind of dirty mangy punk verse. And then it goes to this major key chorus. And then all three dudes are singing, like Matt Lars and Tim are all singing this incredibly simple, hooky, amazing thing. And that really struck me. And that was an influence on like, you know, write these choruses that are just glorious and have everyone singing, like in the band singing. So we would have all four of us singing the choruses and like, so, you know, that's a little bit of the genesis of that thing.

Speaker 1:
[93:50] Yeah, and it was like a complete presentation. Like, you know, it's like, if I'm not wrong, it was unbelievable live, like one of my favorite live bands. It wasn't like everyone came out with the exact same vibe like you guys did at that point. And then obviously, the lighting's coming in later on. But like, there was like a, like you could tell that this was like a, and I want to say more professional because it implies like there's like negative connotations too. But it was like, this is like a more cohesive presentation of a band than you're seeing in hardcore at that time.

Speaker 2:
[94:24] Yeah, we definitely had our thing. Like, you know, we have the pumpkins that we got at like Walgreens, like plastic pumpkins, and you have them all go into one power strip. And then, you know, the lights would cut and my brother, who was our tour manager, like hit the power strips and like these little pumpkins. And it's the most simple kind of janky production you could ever have, but it was so effective. It's amazing how effective that was for a couple of like $2 pumpkins.

Speaker 1:
[94:51] It's also funny because you look at the Gilman scene and there's like, there's performance art happening, there's like the Diesel Queens, there's like a lot of bands with like these sort of like production aspects to them on that DIY level. You guys are kind of coming in, I guess, from that tradition too.

Speaker 2:
[95:06] Oh yeah, like Babyland was like one of my favorites, like seeing a band like Babyland, I mean, they were kind of just doing like a throbbing gristle thing, but they were incredible. Like they don't, that's a band that doesn't get enough recognition in my opinion. But seeing them doing that kind of stuff on stage at Gilman Street was so shocking because it was like, you know, it's not something you usually see at Gilman.

Speaker 1:
[95:26] Yeah, there's like that infamous live sex show thing that happened where the cops got involved on the performance. There's like, people are pushing boundaries in that space at that time.

Speaker 2:
[95:38] Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1:
[95:40] Was there a weird moment for you? I was listening to you and Dave on Adam Carolla podcast today. And to go from like this world that you come from to all of a sudden this moment where you're now thrust in these situations where, I think you said it on this thing, where you guys had the record for being on Loveline in one year, where you're like on these other platforms and you're interacting with like a whole different side of society. Like, was that something that was hard for you to reconcile with or was it an easy sort of shift to kind of balance?

Speaker 2:
[96:14] You mean as far as being on these big platforms or just kind of being like a popular band?

Speaker 1:
[96:19] I mean, just interacting with these kinds of people. Like, I feel like, you know, I don't know Adam Carolla personally or anything like that, but I imagine I can't think of a few people. There are very few people on this planet that would have known Adam Carolla and, you know, been in a band with members of Unit Pride type thing, right? Like you've interacted with like very disparate parts of culture.

Speaker 2:
[96:42] It was weird because in our minds, it was such a gradual and organic thing, even though we went from being an underground band to being all over everywhere. To us, we didn't have that. And we were, you know, we were in our late 20s, early 30s. So we had, we were pretty grounded. And so it was just fun and it could be bizarre, but it wasn't, you know, like going. I remember we went to do some MTV thing. And it was like we're sitting in the green room and it's like us and John Heater who played Napoleon Dynamite and Billy Bob Thornton. And then we go out on camera and Ludacris is interviewing us, asking us questions and he obviously doesn't know the hell we are. And it's just so bizarre. It's like, what is going on here? I just still felt like the same kid, but it was like put in weird situations like that. And like, you know, so the Adam Carolla, like Love Line thing was way less weird than some stuff like that we experienced like that. And being on, you know, being on TRL, like going live on TRL and just, you know, like these talking heads that were on TRL, it was just, it was weird. It wasn't like something that felt very natural, but it was just, I guess, part of the game.

Speaker 1:
[98:03] Yeah. And it's, it's only when I, you know, worked at other places that I realized like how much of a bubble punk rock is. And like the fact that like within reason, everyone's kind of on side on all these different issues. And everyone knows has this sort of shared musical history that we can all tap into. And it's, and it's entertainment. I find it the most shocking, like certainly other places in my life, I don't expect people to know, you know, who Iggy Pop is necessarily. But like when you're in these, some of these entertainment worlds and you're like, oh yeah, you came to this thing entirely differently than I did. And not necessarily in a negative way all the time, but certainly sometimes in a negative way. And like how these people are engaging with this culture is so alien that I find it was like, it was an adjustment for me and I'm kind of doing it way after you guys are doing it. There's a lot more punk people around when I'm doing it.

Speaker 2:
[98:57] Yeah, I mean, there were definitely situations we were in where, whether it be, you know, like Nick Lachey or his wife, you know, interviewing us on TRL and, you know, they're nice, but you could tell they're like, you know, who are these guys? Like, what is this? Am I talking to these guys? And like, you know, we did MTV's New Year's show. So we're like playing in the studio above Times Square. And it's just they fill this and we're with Three 6 Mafia. And like, they're like, okay, we're going to do this part where you guys are going to play and then Three 6 Mafia is going to like freestyle over. And it's just like, it's so bizarre. And then they filled the studio up with these people that were like from a like car commercial. Like they didn't know, none of them knew who we were. They were like central casting characters, but they're like dancing, like doing the kind of like sexy dancing as if they were huge. It's just, it's so weird, but you know, once again, you just kind of roll with it.

Speaker 1:
[100:03] Yeah, like in a few years later, it would make a lot more sense. And now certainly like these kind of worlds are combined, but I think it's because there's a generation of kids that are watching Three Seasons Mafia perform with AFI on the MTV New Year's special. They're like, oh, I can mix these two things. And you get this.

Speaker 2:
[100:21] Yeah, certainly it probably makes more sense now.

Speaker 1:
[100:24] Yeah, absolutely. It makes it a lot. But then again, I think it's because the world you guys are coming from is so the antithesis of this world. And you guys are like the antithesis of this world as people too, like the straight edge thing. I assume everyone's vegan, right? There's like the vegetarian, there's like this sort of like different politic, different worldview that you're kind of mashing into like the opposite side of it at that time.

Speaker 2:
[100:57] There's definitely that thing where when we were at the height of mainstream success and you do interviews, and people just wanted that they expected you to have that hedonistic rock and roll lifestyle thing, and they wanted to hear about it. They didn't know who you were, but they're like, so let's tell some crazy stories from the road. We have zero crazy stories like that. There's no girls on the bus ever. There's no drugs on the bus. There's no alcohol. We don't do that. People couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that we were this successful in their eyes, really edgy rock band, and yet we were so straight-laced.

Speaker 1:
[101:34] Yeah, even with straight-edge too, because the straight-edge I think is at a huge mainstream moment in the wake of CM Punk who used AFI famously as entrance music for years.

Speaker 2:
[101:45] Still does.

Speaker 1:
[101:46] Yeah, still does. Yeah. He came back with it and I think it got announced that it's going to be in the new video game. There's a special old-school style CM Punk entrance.

Speaker 2:
[101:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[101:56] I think there's now a generation of people that probably have no idea about minor threat, for instance, but know about straight-edge. But even in the early 2000s, that's not the case. CM Punk still on the Indies. There's like, it's still a very alien thing to people.

Speaker 2:
[102:13] Yeah, and probably still is. I don't think something like straight-edge, even with the preponderance of veganism in popular culture now, I still think people, it just blows people's mind that you don't want to eat meat or that you wouldn't drink. Like people can't wrap their heads around it, and they never will be able to, because it's such a fundamental aspect of the human experience to drink alcohol, to eat meat. And so it kind of goes against people's, they just can't really grasp the desire or the lack of desire to do these things.

Speaker 1:
[102:51] And I think it's also threatening to people when...

Speaker 2:
[102:54] Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[102:55] You know, especially if they've been thinking about it for years, or they know deep down, like, it's probably a better idea if I don't eat this or drink that for my health, the world's health, everything. But yet it's so, like you're saying, it's so much part of our society, right? Like it's every show you play, it's you're paid in beer before you're paid in money in the music industry.

Speaker 2:
[103:14] This is something as, you know, being straight edge for, you know, almost 40 years now, something I've always experienced. And even back in my hometown, before I was ever in a band, it's people feel judged by you, even when you're not judging, even when you're completely okay. You drink, I'm totally okay with that. But they feel because they know that you don't do it. They assume you look down on someone who does it. And so now they're feeling judged by you. They're creating this whole scenario that you're not a part of, that's like, oh, you hate me? You think I'm a piece of shit? Well, fuck you. Even though I don't care. I don't care what you're doing. So everyone always thinks that you're judgmental towards them. And maybe some people, like Dave's probably more judgmental towards people than I am when it comes to that. And rightfully so, because he's a Spanish vegan warrior, but he had a lot of people being preemptively pissed off at you.

Speaker 1:
[104:13] Yeah, it's amazing how much of the hate and anger and vitriol in this world comes out of an insecurity of one form or the other from people. And I know this is not a revelation by anything, but certainly with Straight Edge, obviously with a lot of the negativity towards LGBTQ2 plus people, you feel like how many of these people are insecure about it? Like how many times does it come out later on? Like, oh, like, yeah, the guy that was running screwdriver security for all those years, he was also very out in the gay scene at the same time. And it was like, it's kind of reconciling these two worlds that, you know, led him to commit violent crimes towards gay people because he just couldn't deal with it himself because he's fucking insecure.

Speaker 2:
[105:02] Yeah, I mean, all of these things, all of these various forms of bigotry are crazy, to me homophobia is one of the craziest ones to me that I just cannot wrap my head around. It's so prevalent. It's been just such an intrinsic part of the fabric of society since day one, since we were living in caves, across all time, across all geographical barriers, religion, race, people. The homophobia is just like, I just cannot, I can't fathom it.

Speaker 1:
[105:37] Yeah, I feel like it's what you're saying. It's like part of our cultural or like being makeup since like the dawn of humanity, like the very first humans. But it's also this thing that society, probably because they want everyone to just make babies so they can have a cheaper workforce to draw from. And I'm sure that what it goes back to when, when religions are kind of finding a way to put this stuff into their doctrine. And it's, I think there's two things slamming up against in some people that causes them to not be able to reconcile and resort to violence.

Speaker 2:
[106:11] Like I suppose, but you even look at societies that aren't, you know, these monotheistic Western religions, homophobia is there. Homophobia is always there. Non-religious societies. It's like some poor guy living in the mountains in Tennessee, who maybe isn't religious, but hates gay people. Like, well, why do you hate gay people? You don't care about there being more people for the workforce?

Speaker 1:
[106:37] I think that's been bred into them, right? Like it's been taught to people. It's been, and I guess you're right. Like there's certainly not all cultures, but like you can see how this thing has become part of who we are. Cause it's just told to us by these religions, by music in some cases, by-

Speaker 2:
[106:53] That's definitely part of it, but there's something weird in human nature. I think it's some kind of like biological Darwinian imperative or something, something, I don't know, maybe it's part of ignorance. Some, I don't know, facet of ignorance. I don't know, but I just, I can't understand it because anyway, we could talk about that all day.

Speaker 1:
[107:13] This is a separate podcast. We'll have a whole other thing. I, and I've realized now I've kept you for a very long time, Jade, and I, Oh, that's okay.

Speaker 2:
[107:19] I didn't even, I wasn't looking at the clock.

Speaker 1:
[107:21] I haven't even talked to you about Redemption 87, which is a huge band for me.

Speaker 2:
[107:26] Okay, cool.

Speaker 1:
[107:28] We just start touching on it a little bit. I feel like Redemption 87, by the time I got the record, I think it was pretty much towards the end of the band. Because by the time you join the band, it's not too many more years before it's over completely, right?

Speaker 2:
[107:41] Yeah, I think it was two years, but I think it had only been around for maybe a year or two when I joined.

Speaker 1:
[107:48] Yeah, the New Age record comes out in 96, I think.

Speaker 2:
[107:52] Oh, okay. Well, then...

Speaker 1:
[107:53] 97, maybe?

Speaker 2:
[107:55] Well, the record that I was on came out in 99.

Speaker 1:
[107:58] Nine, right?

Speaker 2:
[108:00] No, no, no. It says 99, but it... Like, the band was way broken up by 99.

Speaker 1:
[108:06] Maybe LP comes out in 95 then, and I didn't get it till 96.

Speaker 2:
[108:09] Yeah, because I think the one I was on came out in 96 or 97. And I think it's either wrong somewhere. It says it has the wrong information on it. Yeah, because I'm looking at the Wikipedia and it says, Allgun's Poolside was released in 99, which is definitely not the case because I was touring an AFI in 99. So it was well after the band had broken up. I think Allgun's Poolside at the very latest came out in 97. So anyway.

Speaker 1:
[108:38] Wild, okay. Yeah, because I was trying to figure that out because I got the LP eventually, a very damaged copy at the record store because it was the only one available. But it was, it felt like it was just ahead of the Youth Crew Revival, which would come a few years later. And also like a band that I think if you guys had toured more on the East Coast, it would have found maybe more of an audience because it was very much in keeping with the way hardcore was going.

Speaker 2:
[109:07] Yeah, we did that one. The only tour we ever did was we did like a two week thing on the East Coast. It was the first time I had ever been on an airplane, which is pretty cool. Yeah, we didn't tour really. It was, we played a lot of shows in California. Played a lot, but yeah, it just never, I don't know, it never became a bigger thing.

Speaker 1:
[109:31] It's weird because I don't think I've seen too many flyers for that East Coast run. Like where were you guys playing? Like I assume New York obviously in Boston?

Speaker 2:
[109:38] Yeah, we played in Virginia Beach, like a skate park. We were playing with In My Eyes, Blade Crasher, a few other bands, and we played in Maryland, Jersey, I guess maybe New York, I can't remember. A few other places.

Speaker 1:
[110:01] Oh my God, that show sounds incredible at Virginia Beach show.

Speaker 2:
[110:05] Yeah, it was a good one.

Speaker 1:
[110:07] That Blade Crasher.

Speaker 2:
[110:09] Yeah, I think Blade Crasher might have played all the shows. Maybe In My Eyes did too.

Speaker 1:
[110:14] That's wild. That's awesome. Well, I guess, yeah, because that would have been that youth crew revival kind of era, which is also where hardcore, I think, gets its speed back in a lot of ways without being grind. It starts kind of going to, yeah, we were talking about more melodic. It starts finding kind of like that era. But I feel like that Redemption 87 record was certainly one of the big records of that era doing that sort of sound.

Speaker 2:
[110:39] Yeah, it's funny coming into the band. I loved, I mean, I started out listening to hardcore in the 80s, all those, the first wave of hardcore bands. But by the mid 90s, it was like Earth Crisis and Snapcase, like that stuff. I was still listening to bands that were playing fast hardcore, but I loved that stuff.

Speaker 1:
[111:02] Did you like any of that ebullition stuff, like Downcast and those types of bands? No, Downcast.

Speaker 2:
[111:10] Well, Downset too.

Speaker 1:
[111:11] Yeah, Downset is the LA band that had been doing the Radius Machine.

Speaker 2:
[111:15] VOD and 108, and there was just so many heavy, slow, more metallic bands. That scene was, I really liked that scene a lot. Coming into a band like Redemption was going back to my roots of listening to youth crew stuff, so it was cool.

Speaker 1:
[111:35] Was there a big scene for you guys at that point in the Bay, or is it more on the East Coast you guys had a following?

Speaker 2:
[111:41] No, I mean, we didn't really know what kind of following we had anywhere because like I say, we never left California really. But there was a good Bay Area, Harker scene. None of the bands were big, but it was like Powerhouse and I guess Powerhouse and Redemption 87 were probably the two biggest bands in that scene. But we would go down to San Diego and play with like a suppression swing. There was bands like Triceratops and there was this whole scene at the time of mid-90s hardcore. But like I say, all the shows were pretty. It wasn't a huge scene. They're pretty like we played with H2O. We did play some cool shows. We played when the Beastie Boys played under the name Quasar. We played two shows with the Beastie Boys and Sick of It All, which was pretty killer. We played with Weston, which is pretty sweet.

Speaker 1:
[112:39] That's awesome. Did you guys play that show with Four Punch and I think the Hoods when there's that riot fight with the Nazis?

Speaker 2:
[112:49] I think so. Where was that? What venue was it?

Speaker 1:
[112:51] I think it's at the Gilman. There's photos from it like Sammy, All That's Off Sammy, Rest In Peace, about to crack a Nazi over the head with a crowbar. I think it's possible.

Speaker 2:
[113:05] That kind of shit was just like every show. Maybe not Nazis. By that point, the Nazi thing had petered out. But Sammy getting into a fight was certainly many shows. But yeah, I'm not sure if I was at that show. It might have been before me.

Speaker 1:
[113:24] I think it would have been after your time. But I don't know if it would have been after your time. I think you would have been playing with them at this time, I should say. But I don't know if they played. I'm trying to remember.

Speaker 2:
[113:33] I think I probably remember playing Floor Punch.

Speaker 1:
[113:36] Because they did that one at West Coast Run, I'm pretty sure around then too. All that's off, fantastic band. But that guy, Sammy, first person I ever met when I went out to the Gilman. I went and showed up at two in the afternoon. He was outside of the show and was just super nice to me as a sort of like Punisher kid that was like tourists going down to see the show and gave me the first All That's Off split that day.

Speaker 2:
[114:03] That's cool. Yeah, he was like mayor of the scene.

Speaker 1:
[114:07] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[114:07] He was the heartbreaker scene.

Speaker 1:
[114:08] Yeah. It felt like that was the next wave after you guys had blown up.

Speaker 2:
[114:18] Yeah. The hoods and All That's Off were kind of like the small, like Rely, Lockjaw 44. There was a huge scene, but like I say, none of the bands ever really took off. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[114:29] It's interesting how it happens in that way, where there's certain eras where there's just a bunch of bands that kind of like get found, but then there's like, it's almost like a hangover period that follows it directly after, where the scene's slightly smaller and you see it happen all over the place like that.

Speaker 2:
[114:48] I just thought it was weird that there was such a sort of thriving hardcore scene with so many bands, but none of them ever broke out of that scene. You look at it like New York, which obviously New York is a much bigger scene, a much bigger place, but how many legendary bands came out of New York? There wasn't even really one legendary hardcore band that came out of that scene, of the East Bay scene.

Speaker 1:
[115:15] I guess like Neurosis, but you're right, they're more legendary for going more metal.

Speaker 2:
[115:19] Yeah, even the early... I guess I'm talking, there's that semantic thing of hardcore. Hardcore is like second-wave punk, but I'm talking about... When I say hardcore, I usually am referring to hardcore with a capital H, which is like AF onwards, chromags onwards. I just call hardcore punk, if you're talking about adolescents or Black Flag or whatever, I just call that punk. So excuse my ignorance of these terms.

Speaker 1:
[115:47] No, we all have different definitions. When people come on the show, I think that's the interesting thing. Like right down to punk, right? What is and isn't punk, but what falls under these different little subgenres and into these little subsections?

Speaker 2:
[116:02] I understand that hardcore originally referred to those second wave punk bands, germs, etc., all those bands. I think we should just call those bands punk. Now in 2026, we should reserve the term hardcore with a capital H for what we generally recall hardcore, which is bands like Chromags and AF, it's sick of it all, and, you know, grilled biscuits. It just makes it easier.

Speaker 1:
[116:29] Yeah, and there's a lot to go on this one right here. Like, I feel like we could definitely debate this. I feel like there's a sonic through line that I can hear in early AF to what Black Flag was doing, but there's the decided break, I think, and it happens with SSD, where bands didn't necessarily want to be punk bands that got faster and then became hardcore bands. Like bands were coming in being like, no, we don't want to be a punk band, we're going to be a hardcore band. And that was like, I agree with you, that's capital H hardcore period starts there.

Speaker 2:
[117:04] Yeah, like, I think Vinny Stigma says something like that. Like he came from punk, but he's like, we're doing this thing. This is our thing. This is a different thing.

Speaker 1:
[117:13] Yeah. And it's interesting how it spreads too, because like in America's hardcore, I think Henry Rollins says like, we went on this road trip with the Teen Idols. We brought back all this west coast hardcore stuff that we saw in terms of like the way you dance, the way you crude up, the way you dress, and all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2:
[117:29] And then the engineer boots, the freaking circle pit.

Speaker 1:
[117:33] Yeah. And then they go to Boston, they go to New York, and they kind of spread this gospel. And you can see all these other little scenes kind of like pop up in their wake. And it's like, yeah, but I agree with you. It's certainly, there's those LA bands, especially that first wave, they kind of wanted to be rock star still, or like wanted, there's still like the idea of getting popular. And then with hardcore, it's sort of like the idea of like, no one's gonna like this shit. So we're just doing this because we like it.

Speaker 2:
[118:04] Yeah, to me, that was punk. Cause when I came into it, it was, you know, obviously the first wave of punk was extremely mainstream, Clash, The Ramones, Sex Pistols, The Damned even, like Buzzcocks, those were all extremely mainstream bands. But when I came into it, punk was that thing where like, no one knows what this is. No one cares about it anymore. Anyone that liked those bands, they don't, no one cares anymore. Everyone hates you if you listen to this. Like that's to me, that's like the punk to me.

Speaker 1:
[118:34] And I feel like the hardcore is where you take a pride in that. Where you're like, I want it like this. And you see it with like Revolution Summer stuff too, where there's almost like that's where the politics kind of enter it. Because a lot of the first wave stuff, and even into sort of the second wave, it's largely apolitical or in some cases, downright anti-political. But then you're like, oh yeah, post-Revolution Summer, the idea of being political becomes part of this thing. And I guess in the Bay Area, it probably comes from more of a 60s mentality too.

Speaker 2:
[119:06] Yeah. I mean, there was probably not that many apolitical Gilman Street bands or, you know, like you kind of had to take a side.

Speaker 1:
[119:18] Yeah. And you probably wouldn't be playing at Gilman too long if you took the other side, I imagine.

Speaker 2:
[119:23] Oh, you wouldn't be playing at all.

Speaker 1:
[119:26] It's wild. Like, you know, in fucked up, there's been, I can count on maybe two hands, maybe three hands, how many fights there's been in a up show in our whole history.

Speaker 2:
[119:37] Really?

Speaker 1:
[119:37] Yeah. The vast majority of them have been at the Gilman.

Speaker 2:
[119:42] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[119:43] Like clearing brawls many times.

Speaker 2:
[119:47] Wow. I actually haven't seen, as many times as I've been to Gilman, I haven't seen many brawls at Gilman Street.

Speaker 1:
[119:53] When I say brawls, I should dial it back, like just intense street standoffs after fights broke out in the show. And yeah, it felt like for a while there, every single show we played at the Gilman would have something like that happen.

Speaker 2:
[120:08] Actually, I have seen a lot of fights outside Gilman Street. I guess I should amend that. There's very few fights, in my experience, inside, but there's been a lot of violence outside of Gilman Street. I don't know why that is, but yeah, lots of standoffs. I've been involved in some myself.

Speaker 1:
[120:25] I wonder if... I think it's because of the idea that this is a melting pot of all these different interpretations of punk and hardcore too. And when these different subcultures run into each other, sometimes there isn't that warm acceptance of other cultures going on.

Speaker 2:
[120:45] Yeah, I think some bands come into Gilman Street knowing that they are not accepted by that scene and having Chip On The Shoulder ready to be part of a confrontation. Being like, we're playing there, but I know these people hate us. They're like the Tim Johanan, MRR types, and we're not going to fit in. So we're going in ready for a fight.

Speaker 1:
[121:06] Yeah, and stage diving also. I think the no stage diving rule mixed with people that are like, I'm going to fucking break that no stage diving rule, leads to some conflict. But what an amazing experiment it is, like that it's still able to kind of be there and do this all these years later, in spite of all these venue clearing brawls.

Speaker 2:
[121:25] I know. It still shocks me. I think because I have not lived in Berkeley in so long, but to know that the shows are not $5 anymore, and that you don't need a membership card anymore. I think the side door isn't there anymore. All these things have changed, or they made the side door into a double door. Just all these things are shocking to me.

Speaker 1:
[121:49] I think making a side door into a double door would have served all those fights really well because the security, which was always really good about getting the fights outside, like you said, would have more area to kind of push these people outside as they fight each other.

Speaker 2:
[122:02] I mean, all those classic security guards like Nando and Jeremy Skew, those guys are like legends in their own right, just for being security at Gelman Street.

Speaker 1:
[122:10] And it's like almost this like going back to Hardcore vs. Punk, like this service that you do because you love the thing, like you're volunteering to do a job that people are paid reasonably well to do in other places because you just want this thing to be able to happen.

Speaker 2:
[122:27] Yeah, I mean, it was all volunteer. I mean, even Dave was a flyer boy there for a long time. I used to walk around with him while I was putting up flyers on telegraph and stuff. So yeah, people just gave their time to this idea of this community and this sort of socialist type of a collective. It was cool. It was a great idea. It was beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[122:49] Jumping back to when you guys, because you guys have obviously toured with other bands now, like as an opening band on like stadium type tours or large venue type tours and then gone back to do your own tours. Are there any like bad experiences that change the way that you approach how you guys tour or interact with the opening bands? Because you've dealt with, once again, people so far removed from punk rock and some of these experiences.

Speaker 2:
[123:16] No, because we have always treated opening band the same, which is we have that same mentality and ethos from the earliest days. Like you don't treat, I don't care if we're playing headlining arenas and you're the first band, you never treat someone as lesser than or big time them or make their show shitty because we've definitely had that happen. You know, you have like this tiny sliver of stage to play on because the headline band doesn't give a shit if you have room for your gear or not. Or you don't have a dressing room because the headline artist needs a room just for their fricking teapot, you know, like we've had all these things happen where it's just like the band you're touring with clearly does not give a shit about you. They don't give a shit about making your show go well or having just basic amenities. So we would never visit that on someone. Just, just, just from general kindness.

Speaker 1:
[124:15] Do you find like, obviously playing the show, it's probably way better playing your own headlining show, but in terms of like, just what's required of you mentally throughout the day, do you find it easier to do an opening slot like that where there's less stakes, or do you find it just like, I wish I was doing my own show?

Speaker 2:
[124:34] I mean, you wish you were doing your own show because it's always better to play to your fans rather than people that don't know you or don't care. But the low stakes support thing is very attractive. It is very nice to just be able to play, and it doesn't matter if how many tickets are sold. It doesn't matter. Like none of it matters. You do your thing, you play your show, you do your best, and that's all you're responsible for. It is nice to do those once in a while.

Speaker 1:
[125:02] Yeah, those offers have definitely dried up for us, but I would much rather be playing in no stakes opening slot for a big band than doing my own slow show for the reasons you mentioned.

Speaker 2:
[125:12] Yeah, we've luckily got some really good ones over the years. We just continue to, and playing like, we just last year went down and played in Brazil with System Over Down to 80,000 people, which was the biggest crowd we've ever played to. It was fun, and we played with Lincoln Park down in Mexico to 60,000 people. To play in these massive shows and getting people still wanting us to open up for them. They don't need AFI to open up. System Over Down does not need AFI to open up for them in Brazil, but we get to do it.

Speaker 1:
[125:44] I leave after the opener. I guess I am talking shit that way, but I'm saying I would have been there in Brazil for you guys. Then I got into record shopping.

Speaker 2:
[125:53] Yeah, but I'll tell you what, I don't know if you've seen footage. Look online at footage of that show. It is crazy. It would have been worth to stay and see System Over Down at that show.

Speaker 1:
[126:07] So, yeah, I don't know. I don't want to say anything bad. I'm like, my taste has not matured in any way. And like, I would find it, I think, very difficult to be on a tour with a band where I found no entry point to like what they were doing. And like, but I guess that's because I'm not a musician, so I can never respect anything for like the musical side.

Speaker 2:
[126:33] I have pretty broad tastes. I can usually appreciate something in a band. Like, Toxicity is a great record. I mean, that's a great record. You could say otherwise, that's fine. But I mean, I maintain that's a fantastic record. So for me to play that show, I thought, you know, it was great.

Speaker 1:
[126:54] Well, no, for you guys, like, I feel like that's the thing, is you guys have had to, I don't know, like you guys became, on your own terms, part of this sort of like world. Whereas I don't know, and once again, the option was never presented to me, but I don't know if I'd be able to have the maturity to exist in that world.

Speaker 2:
[127:19] Do you think, like, let's say, you know, like, Biscuit's having this big moment right now. If they said, we won't fucked up, six-week tour, direct support.

Speaker 1:
[127:28] Not a chance.

Speaker 2:
[127:29] Look, tons of money, you're just like, I couldn't do it. I mean, we wouldn't either, but, you know, is there a cutoff point for a certain type of band?

Speaker 1:
[127:37] I have to, like, find a way in, you know, like, and we've only done, like, a few big tour support songs like The Foo Fighters and Arcade Fire. Like, I knew that they were all in punk and hardcore bands, and so I had that relation.

Speaker 2:
[127:55] Okay. So that has to be, well, I don't think that has to be the connection.

Speaker 1:
[127:58] I don't think it necessarily has to be the connection. Like, if, like, let's say the Kinks were like, hey, we're going to get back together. Does fucked up want to go on tour? I'd be like, absolutely. But I think, like, I'd have to, like, understand the cultural side of things. Like, we opened for Public Enemy one time, and that to me was like a no-brainer because it's like it was really bad. Probably some brain should have been involved for all parties involved. But it was...

Speaker 2:
[128:20] If you have a black plan, it's one of the best records of all time.

Speaker 1:
[128:23] Perfect. And I met Chuck D on the phone beforehand. I thought it was going to be an amazing thing. And then the reality was maybe my slight taste of jamming live on MTV with Three 6 Mafia kind of vibe. But yeah, for the most part, I don't know. There's definitely bands that aren't from punk and hardcore that I'd love to tour with, and I could find a way to tour with. But there's bands that I find, in particular with Limp Bizkit. And I know says the dance is a completely different beast, but it's so different to... Or just, I don't know, and maybe I've just put too much weight on this music bullshit, I think.

Speaker 2:
[129:01] Well, hey, like, I think it's laudable to have these lines. I mean, we have lines, too, obviously. These lines you wouldn't cross, like, no matter how big the check is, we're not doing it. We don't like that band. We don't like what they stand for.

Speaker 1:
[129:15] Yeah. Yeah, we had that recently with a band where I'm like, no, I know they're shitty. I can't do it. And it was like, it was a lot of money. And I'm not in a position to turn down stuff. But then it becomes like, like, the money will go. And then forever, you've got that thing where you're like, fuck, was that something I didn't want to do? And like, you know, it's different than signing to a major label. Like when you know something actually feels wrong versus something that just feels unknown.

Speaker 2:
[129:44] We've done that. We're in retrospect, I or we have been like, you know what, we shouldn't have done that. And it wasn't at the time where it was like, this sucks, but we're going to do it because we want to get paid or we want exposure or whatever the thing was. But there's things in the retrospect where you're like, damn it, why were we thinking we shouldn't have done that? And probably every band has that. So it's not like we have a perfect track record of always making the right decision.

Speaker 1:
[130:14] Yeah, like I can remember playing a festival one time beside a giant inflatable deodorant thing. I don't know if this is a good fit for us. Like this might have been a mistake. But yeah, it's just like, but like then again, like I think you guys did it in such a cool way. And like it has served to bring more people on board as I talked about, like directly it served me because you brought people on to punk. Because no one wants to record my vocals other than Dylan. So if you guys hadn't gotten Dylan to punk, I don't know what I'd be doing right now for vocals. So like it is like this sort of like, and with Nirvana, I think you really see it. It's almost like this weird maybe sacrifice that you're going to have to do. Like it's a leap of faith certainly as a band because you might wind up influencing a new generation, but you might wind up all your friends hating you. And in the case of Nirvana, you might not live through the experience for one reason or another. And so it's a lot that goes into this thing that ultimately, like you said way back when, doesn't really matter. It's just like some artificial thing that you kind of put on. These things that are external forces that you're kind of listening to.

Speaker 2:
[131:25] Yeah, you're talking specifically about signed to a major, right?

Speaker 1:
[131:29] I think all of them is kind of rolled in together. And obviously their major is very different than compromising your ethics. But I mean like these decisions that you've make in the course of being in a band and how they affect and are interpreted by your community.

Speaker 2:
[131:47] Yeah, some things are kind of out of your control too. It's like, you know, just recently we did a fan thing, like for our fan club where it was like some kind of little thing, you know, for a fan club. And there was this image we put up. We paid an artist to do it. And apparently, unknown to us, the artist had used AI to help him make this image. And so, like, all of a sudden we're getting this backlash because of AI, even though we made no conscious decision to use AI, nor would we have. But, like, you know, there's these things that just happen where it looks like you're doing a bad thing. You didn't do it, but you get the backlash for it.

Speaker 1:
[132:32] Yeah, and it's because you end up... And an AI thing is I've got a couple of friends that have fallen into similar situations where they hired someone with the full expectation that it was just going to be them doing it, and it ultimately became something that AI was involved in. Shoot, I got to go because my kids just got sent home from school. I'm just singing a note. So Jade, at some point in the future, would you come back for a part two?

Speaker 2:
[132:55] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[132:56] Thank you so much for doing this.

Speaker 2:
[132:58] Thanks for having me.