transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Mindy and I are so grateful for the following sponsors who make Bigger Pockets Money possible. Your business identity is everything that makes your business legitimate and professional. From public records and compliance to your website, email, and phone number. With Northwest Registered Agent, you don't just form a business, you start a complete foundation built for privacy, credibility, and growth. When you form your business with Northwest, you get a complete business identity, not a stack of vendors to deal with, and that includes a registered agent service, a business address, operating agreement, domain, website, professional email, phone number, and built-in privacy. Northwest doesn't outsource or resell services. Everything is built and managed in-house, which means fewer hands on your data and privacy by default for every customer. Don't pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what you can get from Northwest for free. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree.

Speaker 2:
[00:59] When you want more, start your business with Northwest Registered Agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They are the largest registered agent and LLC service in the US with over 1500 corporate guides who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data and all services are handled in-house because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy, just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/biggerpockets. Just go to indeed.com/biggerpockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. indeed.com/biggerpockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. Today, we've got a special bonus episode. Scott and I are highlighting real stories from people living in New York City who've achieved financial independence. Today, we're talking to Walli. Most people leave New York City to achieve fire. Walli moved there and still retired at age 39. After discovering fire in 2015, she and her husband got intentional with their spending, leveraged New York City perks, and reached early retirement on a combined income of under $200,000. Her story proves that fire isn't about high income, it's about intentional living. Walli, welcome to the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. I am so excited to talk to you today.

Speaker 3:
[03:47] Thank you so much for having me. I am glad that I could be here to bring a different flavor to what fire looks like in a high cost of living area.

Speaker 2:
[03:55] Well, I love that you are telling Scott who said, oh, you can't fire in New York City. I love that you're telling him he's wrong. So tell us a little bit about how you reached financial independence.

Speaker 3:
[04:06] Yeah. So I discovered fire or the fire movement through a very clickbaity blog post, or actually was a Forbes article talking about how a couple had reached financial independence in their 30s in order to travel the world. And I remember reading the article and I sent it to my then fiance. I was like, wow, this is kind of cool and it kind of stayed there. And then just like what many people's story is, I had a really bad day at work, and I went through my sent inbox and I reread that article and they were using terms like investing and wealth building. And I didn't know what any of those things meant. The more I sort of Googled, I literally came home on a Friday after a really bad day of work. The more I Googled, the more I found out that, wow, there's a whole bunch of people who are reaching financial independence and using their nine to five income in order to be able to fund retirement when they want. So that was how I came to the FIRE movement. Me and my husband both worked a nine to five job. The most money we ever made was the year prior to us firing, was the most money we ever made. And it was less than $200,000. I think that year gross, it was 180,000, 179,000, something like that. Yeah, that was how we reached financial independence.

Speaker 1:
[05:23] Where in New York City did you or do you live?

Speaker 3:
[05:26] So at the time in 2016, we were actually living in California. My husband is from California. I'm born and raised in New York City, but I was living there. I had moved there for a job transfer. Then I came back to New York City and I moved back to New York City in 2017. We were living in high cost of living areas, both in California and in New York City. And I'm originally born and raised in the Bronx, but I live in Manhattan now and I've lived in Manhattan since 2017.

Speaker 2:
[05:52] Oh, that's the expensive part of New York City, right?

Speaker 3:
[05:55] I think some people might consider it that for sure.

Speaker 1:
[05:58] That's the part I was specifically referring to is, I don't think that's that compatible with FIRE. Walk us through what you did here. How did you keep expenses low and what did you invest in, in order to get to this point?

Speaker 3:
[06:08] Yeah, absolutely. So again, my journey started in California. And so my cost of living there was still pretty high. When I moved back to New York, we did get a slight increase in salary, but that was eaten away by the fact that we were not only paying federal taxes and state taxes, but now we were also paying city taxes. And our mortgage, so we owned a home in California. Mortgage, you know, everything, principal, insurance taxes was like $1,800. And now we were living in a 400-square-foot apartment that was like $2,500. So our cost of living also increased. One of the things that we did was get really clear. And this is something that we did even when we first started on our journey was what was important to us. Now, I know a lot of people's entry point into FIRE is like Mr. Money Mustache. I did not hear about Mr. Money Mustache till a couple of years later. So the frugal side of financial independence or that path wasn't something that I really gravitated towards, because it wasn't even something that I realized. Like some people sort of frugal their way to FIRE. And that is a path. For me, it was never something that I sort of connected with. One of the things that we did was decide what was it that we wanted to spend money on. And what was it the thing, you know, where did we want to get really intentional and sort of reduce our expenses? My husband is not a big spender, but I'm a natural spender. I'm a natural shopper. I love to shop and spend money on all the things. So for me, it was really evaluating, like, where is our money going? You know, and I realized that it was going on random trips to, you know, Target and random trips to, you know, I was on my way to the gas station and I would stop off at, you know, TJ Maxx or Marshalls. And so I really just got intentional about where the money was going. And it was at that point where I realized, okay, once I listed out all of our expenses, I was supposed to have money leftover, but every single month I didn't have money leftover. So I realized, okay, I think I need to get kind of clear about where is money going actually.

Speaker 2:
[08:22] So I'm listening to you talk about, oh, I just went into Target for these staples and I came out with all of this other stuff. And I was reminded of way back on episode four of the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast, we had Rosemary Groner from The Busy Budgeter come on and talk to us about her money story. And she said that she was the exact same way. She would go for one thing and come out with a cart full of stuff. So her idea was to create a mini store in her house. She says, when I go to the store and I need tide, I buy two or three when they're on sale. And then they go into my store at my house. So when I need laundry detergent, I already have it. I do the same thing with deodorant and dish detergent and all these things that you run out of and you know you're going to run out of and last for a super long time. And I love that idea so much that I am currently building a house and I have a space under my, the cupboard under the stairs, which will be my little store for all of these things that I need and will trigger a trip to Target that comes out with a whole shopping cart full of stuff.

Speaker 3:
[09:34] Yeah, I will say, I always was the type of person who liked a good bargain. So I love, like it was very, I really gamified spending money. So even when I did spend the money, it was generally things that were like, oh, this is a good deal. My husband in his vows when we got married was like, I promised to help you clip coupons on Sundays to build your, to do the couponing. Like I was huge into couponing. But one of the things that was happening was that I was quote unquote saving money on toothpaste, deodorant, shampoo. But and then I wasn't really saving it. I was just, it allowed me to spend on something else. And so once I began to realize, wait a minute, if we're really talking about saving money, it's actually using the money that you're spending less on in whatever category, whether it's, you know, airfare, or, you know, those household staples and supplies, and actually putting it into a savings account or putting it into investments, which was really, it did help me as I was on that fire path, right? Because I knew that I could find a good deal. Like, I know some people don't want to spend their time doing those things, but to me it was always fun and I still enjoy it. But it was being able to say, okay, I'm really gonna live up the whole saving aspect of it, right? So it's like save, you know, a few dollars on this thing or on this experience so I can truly save it. And that also helped me on the path.

Speaker 2:
[11:03] What hacks do you have to keep your expenses low in New York City while still adding all of these things back into your life or keeping them in your life?

Speaker 3:
[11:14] I think it's really important to spend intentionally. One of the things that I did not want to do was to stop traveling. That was something that was always important to me. I had solo trips before I got married. I've taken solo trips after I got married. Me and my husband love to travel together. So traveling was something that I did not want to reduce that category. And my husband was actually food experiences. We loved going out to eat, but we just got really intentional about how those things happened. So rather than just ordering takeout and then forgetting three days later, what we had that week, we got really intentional. So we didn't even reduce the amount of money that was spent in the eating out category, but we made more intentional decisions about, we are going to have a food experience. And what ended up happening was that then naturally, the area of food, for example, just reduced because we didn't need to spend money on Uber Eats, or DoorDash, or Takeout, because we knew we were going to go to a really nice restaurant once a week, or we're going to have a date night at the end of the month. And so I think it's really important to spend intentionally about the things that matter to you and that bring you joy. As I mentioned, for some people, sort of frugaling their way to fi is the path to fi, that was just not something we wanted to do. And one of the things that I will say is that New York City, because it is New York City, there are so many free things to do out there. I'm talking about meeting authors of books, right? There's always some sort of book signing or some sort of like author panel reading, right? There's always something going on. There's always free concerts happening. There's always last minute tickets for a Broadway show that if you have the flexibility, you can just go and watch a show that you've wanted to watch for years. My husband and I, we watch Hamilton for free, front row because we entered in the lottery, right? So there's so many things that you can do and just get really crystal clear about what are you willing to, not only spend money on, spend money on the things intentionally, and then what are you willing to maybe take a little bit more time, right? So I think for some people, they would say, okay, I want to go watch whatever Broadway show on this day, this specific hour. And for us, we were a little bit more like, okay, well, we'll join the lottery and we'll see if we get it. And I think I did that for a few weeks and then we ended up getting free lottery tickets to go watch Hamilton. So, you know, and it's not to say we don't spend money on, you know, something like a Broadway show. But if you are willing to be a little bit more flexible or going for a matinee, for example, you're able to experience some of those things. So yes, living in New York city has a high housing cost, but I think for entertainment, there's so many free ways or less expensive ways to do those things that you really enjoy.

Speaker 1:
[14:14] How do we ballpark your annual spend for your household?

Speaker 3:
[14:17] One of the things that happened for me is that I've always been somebody who had a spending plan. And so when I was trying to think of our FI number, I thought about, okay, what is all of my living expenses? And that included things like entertainment, that included things like vacationing, that included things like eating out, right? And we just did what everybody else does, which is multiply that number by 25. And because our numbers stayed pretty consistent, as we got closer to reaching financial independence, like I felt really comfortable with that, because I could look back at the years prior or the year prior and say, yeah, we tend to spend, let's say, 10 to $12,000 a year on vacation. We would just add that to that number. That's how, I mean, we just use the 25 times rule.

Speaker 1:
[15:10] Your housing is $2,500 a month. Is it still $2,500 a month or has it gone up since then?

Speaker 3:
[15:15] No, so our housing actually has gone down. So our housing expenses now is about $1,800 a month. And we live in a two-bedroom apartment, which is we have a relatively low cost of housing expense. We own our property here in New York City mortgage-free. We live in a co-op, so it's an apartment. And in New York City, they have these things called co-op. So you pay like this flat monthly fee, consider it something like a HOA. It includes everything from all utilities, insurance, taxes. And so we pay $1,800 a month.

Speaker 1:
[15:51] Okay, great. And so this is a paid off primary residence with $1,800 a month in the equivalent of property taxes, insurance, HOA dues, all that kind of stuff, utilities.

Speaker 3:
[15:59] Yeah, monthly, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[16:00] Okay, great. And so do you include this this home in your fire number, or do you reduce your fire number by the amount of excess rent or housing costs you'd pay, otherwise pay?

Speaker 3:
[16:11] Yeah, so we include it in our net worth, but our fire number is specifically in our stock portfolio. So that house in California that I owned or that we lived in, I purchased it before I even got married. So I include that in my net worth, but I never include that in part as part of my fire number, right, because the amount that I get in rent and things like that after expenses, it's only a couple hundred dollars a month that I can actually live off of, and that is building that safety net for that rental property. So the properties that we have, we include it in our net worth, but our fire number is the money that we actually would need to cover all of our living expenses. And our rental property in California, we don't use that money at all to live off of, we only use our portfolio. Now, at some point, we'll either sell the rental property we have in California or it will be paid off and then we'll have an additional amount. But even that, I've never counted it because again, right now, it's not accessible to us. It's not available to us.

Speaker 1:
[17:16] Your business identity is everything that makes your business legitimate and professional. From public records and compliance to your website, email and phone number. With Northwest Registered Agent, you don't just form a business, you start with a complete foundation built for privacy, credibility, and growth. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business, they give you all the free tools you need after you form, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of guides that explains all the ins and outs of running a business. Don't pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what you can get from Northwest for free. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree.

Speaker 2:
[18:01] When you want more, start your business with Northwest Registered Agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business all in one place. Build your complete business identity with Northwest today. Northwest Registered Agent has been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the US, with over 1,500 corporate guides, who are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. Northwest makes life easy for business owners. They don't just help you form your business. They give you the free tools you need after you form it, like operating agreements, meeting minutes, and thousands of how-to guides that explain the complicated ins and outs of running a business. And with Northwest, privacy is automatic. They never sell your data, and all services are handled in house, because privacy by default is their pledge to all customers. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/moneyfree. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy, just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. That means you can stop struggling to get your job notice on other job sites. Indeed's Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out and hire the right people quickly. Your job post jumps straight to the top of the page where your ideal candidates are looking. And it works. Sponsored jobs on Indeed get 45% more applications than non-sponsored posts. The best part? No monthly subscriptions or long-term contracts. You only pay for results. And speaking of results, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 people just got hired through Indeed worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/biggerpockets. Just go to indeed.com/biggerpockets right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. indeed.com/biggerpockets. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.

Speaker 1:
[20:03] You have a paid off home, two-bedroom apartment basically in Manhattan. And you have a, I imagine several million dollars stock portfolio that you can withdraw from at the 4% rule to sustain your cost of living. And you have a rental property in California. And you never earned more than $200,000 a year in household income. How long did this journey take you? What are the other ingredients that are going on here for us to comprehend this?

Speaker 3:
[20:30] Yeah. So our investment portfolio is not several million dollars. Actually, we have a lower cost of, let's say our annual expenses are a little bit lower, right? Like for New York City, I know for most people it's like, that's a mortgage, but for us $1,800 in New York, like it's pretty good deal. So as I had mentioned, sort of like off topic, I just looked at an email that I had sent. And in 2016, right when we started our fire journey combined, me and my husband had about $110,000 in investments. That was all 401Ks. Really between 2016 and when I received my last W-2 paycheck, which was in January, 2024, our portfolio just grew because we maxed out our 401Ks, we maxed out our Roth IRAs, and then we also put money into a taxable brokerage account. So by the time that happened, I turned in my notice at my job in June, 2023. We were really close to our fine number, but me and my husband had agreed that he would stay working for an additional year to, you know, to test things out to make sure everything was going to be okay. But once I told my boss that I was leaving, all of a sudden I had so much flexibility and I turned in my notice in June to leave at the end of the summer. And then I ended up staying in additional six months. So January 2024 was like my last time. And then my husband, he was supposed to continue to work for another year. But by June 2024, he was like, okay, we've surpassed our fine number. Like, I'm done. And so he left as well.

Speaker 1:
[22:14] You know, you sent this in this very wonderful email you just reached out that he is a Air Force reservist, right? And that's how that covers all the health insurance and those kinds of things. So that's eliminated as a concern essentially because of that reservist role.

Speaker 3:
[22:28] Yeah, that's right. So my husband considers himself semi-retired because he still works one weekend a month, but like his pay is like $400 a month and that essentially covers our dental and health insurance. But we had talked to several people who are already FI here in New York City to get an estimate of what their health insurance was going to be. And so we knew that it was going to range anywhere between $800 to $1500 for a family. And we just sort of knew that if he were to leave the military, that we would need to increase our FI number in order to cover an additional $12,000 a year. But as long as he stayed in, our health insurance would be covered. I mean, that was part of the FI plan, I guess I should say.

Speaker 1:
[23:12] Tell us about your transportation and food budgets. I think you mentioned you drive to Target and that was I was like, oh, that's surprising, right? Because you think of Manhattan as as generally folks opting not to have vehicles. Why do you have a vehicle and does that relate in any way to lower expenses in other areas because of those car trips?

Speaker 3:
[23:31] So the driving to Target and the gas station was really an example of when I lived in California. So in California, both me and my husband had cars. When we moved to New York, I decided to keep one car. So we decided to sell one of our vehicles and we kept one vehicle. So we are very rare breed where we have a vehicle here in New York City, but I will say that vehicle rarely gets used. We use that car maybe on the weekends, a couple of times a month if we're going to take a road trip or something. We have a Trader Joe's within walking distance. We have a Key Food, which is another supermarket chain here in New York City within walking distance. We have a Target within walking distance. We have a Lidl's that opened up within walking distance. So we use our legs to get around, but also we use public transportation. So when my husband and I were working, although we had a vehicle, we would take the subway to work because trying to find parking in New York City can be a hassle and can be very expensive. So we do have a vehicle that is paid off. The car is a 2008 Honda Accord with 150,000 miles that still drives pretty solidly. I will say that we've already decided that we're going to give that car to one of my nieces. She's going to be 16, so we're going to give that car to her, and we're going to upgrade. So we're going to get a nicer vehicle now. But again, this is all part of, you know, these are sort of thoughts and plans that you have as you make that decision. Do you need a car in New York City? No. And I think that that's where a lot of people save money, because even if you're buying sort of like a monthly metro card pass, if you're not paying, you know, vehicle insurance and you're not paying a car payment and you're not paying for tolls and parking and things like that, your cost of transportation can be greatly reduced because that car was already paid off. And, you know, we just have the car insurance and, you know, I think we put maybe 30 or $40 of gas every month, if that.

Speaker 2:
[25:35] Where do you park this car?

Speaker 3:
[25:36] We are super lucky that we live in a small little pocket in New York City, in Manhattan, where it's very residential. So there's a lot of street parking. When we lived in a different neighborhood where that like $2,500 a month apartment was, parking was a nightmare. We had really considered parking it somewhere, and the parking would have been about $400 to $500 a month. Thankfully, we never did that. We just sort of dealt with street parking and all its hassles, because we have alternate street side parking. So it's not like you can park it in likes that didn't forget it. But now we live in a really residential area. So parking is pretty plentiful here.

Speaker 1:
[26:13] Help me understand something. You said $1,800 a month in your co-op fees.

Speaker 3:
[26:16] Yeah, maintenance.

Speaker 1:
[26:17] And I'm going to say like $300 a month for the car or insurance and all those other things. Between those two things, we get to like $25,000, $26,000 and spend just those, not even counting food or fun or travel, the $12,000 a year in travel. How does this work from a FI perspective, given that you say you don't have a multimillion dollar stock portfolio? Do you earn additional income in some other way? We have $400 bucks coming from the reservist. How does that work?

Speaker 3:
[26:42] Yeah, so our vehicle expenses, for example, our car insurance is $100 a month. So it's a 2008 Honda Accord, right? So our vehicle insurance is $100 a month, and we spent maybe $30 to $40 on gas. So vehicle expenses is really low. Our food expenses have gone up since both me and my husband left nine to five work because we're home a lot more. So I tend to do a lot of cooking, but our monthly expenses on groceries around between $350 to $400. And I will say me and my husband were both meat eaters. So sometimes I know like if you're a vegetarian, like that price might be a little lower, but I tend to cook a lot. So we eat home pretty regularly. Our dining out costs are, we separate maybe about $200 to $250 a month on dining out. Sometimes we use all of it. Sometimes we use more of it. Sometimes it's less of it. We also have like credit card reward points that we use for things like travel. So our annual expenses right now is about anywhere between $40,000 to $45,000 a year. Last year, we spent a little bit more than that because we have a dog who had to have two surgeries that cost $20,000, or each surgery cost $10,000. Thankfully, we had pet insurance, so it covered a good amount of it. But that was a nice shock to the system right after reaching five. But I think also we have quite a bit of cash on hand as well.

Speaker 1:
[28:13] Okay, so between the Army Reservists, the stock portfolio, and then let me ask you another question then just out of curiosity, why do you keep the rental in California in your situation, given that you're financially independent in New York City, and do not count it as part of your net worth, and do not factor really any cash flow, it sounds like, from the rental property into your position. What is the thought process there?

Speaker 3:
[28:35] So when we originally, my husband is from California, I'm born and raised in New York City. So the idea was always that once we reach five, we might move back to California, or would like to spend some time in California, and some time in New York. When we were moving from California to New York, it was during the fall heading into the winter, so it was a bad time to sell. And so we decided, let's put it up in the rental market, and let's just test it out. And so we kind of became accidental landlords. And since then, we've had a couple of tenants through there, but they tend to stay for two, three years at a time, and it's worked out really well. And so for right now, because it is cash flow positive, as I mentioned, we don't use any of that money, because as you know, as rental properties, we had to replace a whole HVAC system, right? And I'm like, okay, the house is gonna be almost 20 years old, the next thing to go is the roof. So we just stock up any of that money that we collect in rent and any of that profit, we just put it in towards that. There was a time right around the five year mark that we were trying to decide whether or not we were going to sell. And honestly, it was kind of emotional. It was like my first investment, even though I didn't really think of it as an investment at the time, but it was sort of an emotional decision. As I've gotten further away from initially buying that home, it's not such an emotional decision anymore. Now it's okay, well, the renters have already been there for two years, when they decide to leave, we'll make a decision at that time whether or not we will sell it. And I think probably so because when I did the math of, had we sold it in 2017, and we would have just put that, had we put the money that we would have gotten from the rental property into the stock market, what would we have had if we would have just put it in a simple index fund? And to go back to what you asked previously, so our portfolio now is almost 1.7 million. So we'll be hitting multiple millions and soon we'll see what the stock market does. But that wasn't even our fire number. Even though we've been living off of our portfolio for going on, we're entering into our third year, our portfolio value continues to go up because the stock market has gone up. We have way more than what our fire number initially was, but we continue to spend what our original fire number was, knowing that we have that flexibility. And also knowing that that's exactly what it's meant to be doing. It's supposed to get higher so that if the stock market drops, we can still live pretty comfortably off of what we have. Our living expenses, as I mentioned, it's about $45,000 a year. Our housing costs, it's $1,800. It's like $1,789 or something like that, so $1,800.

Speaker 1:
[31:24] What does Tuesday look like for you? A random Tuesday tomorrow, what will you plan to do? What will that look like in Manhattan?

Speaker 3:
[31:31] Yeah, so it really depends. I will say in the beginning, I filled up my schedule with a lot of fun things. I filled up my schedule with having brunch and lunch with friends and doing a whole bunch of activities, and I realized that I was sort of perpetuating the same productivity desire that I think is so ingrained in us that if you're not a productive member of society, or you must be a productive member of society. I think now, generally, my days of the week, my husband is an early riser. He tends to wake up early. He's into options trading a little bit now, so he's up early watching the stock market. I tend to have very slow mornings. I tend to wake up around 8 o'clock and stay in bed until 8.30 or 8.45, maybe 9. Me and my husband have breakfast every day together. He tends to make breakfast. I do all the dinner cooking. We walk our dog. We have a French bulldog here in the city. And then one of the things that I have done is, I think it's almost like my responsibility to help other people find this path. Talking about finances and talking about investing and wealth building is not something that happens all of the time. So one of the ways that I fill up my time is by helping other people understand what fire is and what investing is and how to build wealth. And so I do a little bit of financial coaching on the side, but it just so happens that Tuesdays are my day off. So I don't do any of that on Tuesdays. But on a regular day, I might be coaching a client or two.

Speaker 1:
[33:03] Awesome.

Speaker 3:
[33:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:04] Just to kind of get a synopsis here, you guys earned a good but not top 1% income across this journey. Generally speaking, went through very traditional order of operations for investing. Did a lot of that building out in California. Moved to New York a few years back. Have a co-op, which keeps your housing costs low. And it includes all, that is all your costs, utilities, taxes, all those kinds of things. In that $1,700 a month payment, you keep your food expenses really low. $350 to $400 a month is almost incomprehensible to me. But I don't know what the term is there. But I eat a tremendous amount of food there. And we have two little girls on there. You keep those expenses really low. And then you travel and see the world. But you also do Manhattan for free or for a very low cost because you're very good at finding these fun free events that are going on or entering that raffle or getting those last minute tickets to Broadway. Is that the right way to summarize what I learned today from you, Walli?

Speaker 3:
[34:02] This is the way I will say it. Because we were on the fire journey, even though we were grossing $180,000, like that was never our take home pay. We never spent that. Like I said, we have federal taxes, city taxes, state taxes. So this is going to wipe out almost like 40 percent, right? Then we were also saving and investing about 30 to 40 percent of our income. So we've been living in this same exact way for several years. And so we had a really good idea of what that looked like for us. If you are someone who spends $200,000 a year, then your fire number is going to be higher. We never had that much money to spend, right? So it was just not something that we ever did. You know, I've worked with clients who make $100,000 take home, right? And they have $10,000 saved because they are spending a lot of money. So I think it's sort of like understanding. I will say that in some ways, I would consider myself frugal. Like if I'm going to go to the movie theaters, I'm going to buy a big old thing of popcorn, but I'm bringing my own candy that I got from the Dollar Tree, right? Like some people are like, oh, why even waste your time? But I'm like, that's just the way I've always been. But also, it's the same thing for travel. Like I am beyond spending my nights traveling and staying at a hostel. Will I stay at a five-star hotel? You betcha, but I'm going to make sure that I use points for that. Otherwise, I'm going to be staying at a three or four-star hotel, right? So I think it's sort of like understanding what is really important to you and then funding your life in that way. Yes, we do find ways to spend less money, but also if we really want to do something and it costs what it costs, then we're going to do it. Even, let's say, Hamilton, right? So we decided, okay, like we want to go see that when it first came out. And we were willing to wait a couple of months in order to see if we could get the lottery and like get the free tickets. But had that not happened, eventually we would have just bought the tickets on our own and like spent the money for it, right? So I think it's sort of understanding like where are you willing to be flexible on? And I will even say for FI, that's it is going to require flexibility, right? In the last several years, the stock market has been great. And there might be a time where the stock market hasn't been so good. Do we have flexibility in another area? Right? So I think it's like that is sort of the key takeaway. If you spend $200,000 a year, then your FIRE number is going to need to reflect that, and that's okay, but you probably also have the money to save more and invest more. But if you spend less, then you probably need less. Being in New York City allows you to do certain things that in other areas, I think people would need to get on a plane to sort of experience, right? Because we have it here in New York City. Going to museums, for example, people will spend thousands of dollars visiting in New York City for a week to go visit some of the best museums that we have in this country. And it's like we get to go and experience that for free.

Speaker 1:
[37:11] So I guess that brings us to the question. We just interviewed Eli. Eli is like 23, 24 in Manhattan. And it was very clear from the conversation why Manhattan is a goon to Eli's fire journey, right? He's starting out earning a higher income. The job is elite. It is a really promising start to a career at a big four accounting firm. It pays well now. And there's every reason to believe that if you succeed and can make it, you can make hundreds of thousands or maybe even seven figures a year, a decade, 15 years into a career. And his employer encourages very long hours, especially during the week. So he can go to work and get most of his meals paid for at work and various networking events and his expenses are super low. And so he wants to do something fun, he can find something for free just the way you said. And so there's no question for me coming out of that conversation like, oh, that makes sense. That is a really powerful way to pursue fire, regardless of where you end up later in life. And it sounded like he was thinking about moving out of the city once he fired. Onto that. Yours is the opposite. You built your fire journey elsewhere and are firing in Manhattan. And so I guess the question there is, and you sort of answered it in what you just said, hey, the best museum in the world is right here. Does Manhattan offer advantages to the early retiree other than maybe the free access to museums or certain components of it, over and above what you could get somewhere more suburban or rural or a smaller major metro in the United States? What is it for you that you feel makes it particularly attractive or feasible to do this in Manhattan?

Speaker 3:
[38:47] Yeah, I think there's two things. One is most of my family actually no longer live in New York City, but they live on the East Coast. When I was living in California, visiting family was quite a big trek. Now, I can buy round-trip tickets down to Florida for 100 bucks, and it's great or I could drive from New York down to Florida. I won't be doing that very often, but I could if I wanted to. I think personally, I really wanted to be closer to my family. Then on the entertainment side, unless you live in New York City, you might not really understand all of the things that New York City has to offer. It's not just the museums, it's the ability to be able to go to the supermarket at any time and just walk there, and just go to the discount store. It's not only just the museum or the Broadway shows that's available, it's about being able to watch authors and important people, inspiring people, give a talk, because it's hosted by your local club or organization. It's about being able to go to these amazing concerts, because if they're going to happen, it's going to happen in New York City. I think that there's so many events, both entertainment, sporting, cultural events that happen here in New York City, that it's really hard to experience anywhere else. I lived in California and I actually went down, I lived in Florida for college. I went to college down in Florida. In Florida was very rural, and I remember having to spend money to drive to Tampa or to drive to Orlando. I had to get in a car and be in a car for an hour and a half to go somewhere. Versus here, all I need to do is walk out my front door and go to the many different type of community organizations or events that are happening. One of the things that I do like to do, which is something that I've discovered since having more time on my hand, is I love the pop-up shops. I love going to these pop-up shops and seeing anything from a pop-up art presentation, art gallery that's happening to maybe a designer that I really love. These are happening all of the time. Not only are they generally free, but they also have, yes, things like free food, free gifts. I never have to buy any skin care products, because I'm talking about 100, maybe even 1,000. I need to actually add this up. I probably have gotten about $1,000 worth of gift cards and things like that from different skin care pop-up shops that I've been to, but I'm like, where else can you experience that? And then you're meeting new people and experiencing new things. So if you are somebody, and I will say that I am generally a homebody. I do like to be at home. I'm an introvert, so I do like to be at home. But if I wanted to go out, I know that I could go out and within 20 to 30 minutes be somewhere that would give me a whole new adventure or new experience. And I love that. Even as I mentioned, I grew up in New York City, and I remember as, I don't know, maybe 11 or 12 years old, getting on the subway and going to the Museum of Natural History. And I would just spend the hours there. And that was like as a kid. And I'm like, generally now, if a kid wants to go somewhere, a parent has to drop them off, it has to go with them, right? So there's like so many experiences that you have here in New York City, that if you don't value it, and if it's not important to you, then yes, New York City, Manhattan is not going to be the place for you. But I live right by the East River, you know, it's beautiful park there. You know, me and my dog and my husband will go out there, and we'll just, you know, be able to have these beautiful skyline views. And again, if you don't appreciate it, then it may not be worth it to you. But I am someone that as soon as I get on the highway, especially at night, I still get mesmerized by the city lights, and I grew up in New York City, right? So if these are things that you value and enjoy and appreciate, it's just like, you know, living in Colorado and watching the mountains. Some people are like, who cares about the mountains? I don't ski. Okay, so maybe living in Colorado and being by some of the best loves isn't for you. But if you do enjoy that, then it's important to you. We talk about Manhattan, but also outside of the city is beautiful, right? And that's not something that I valued until I was older. So being able to go drive 45 minutes to an hour north and being in the woods and hiking, like that is something that I love to do in the summer, which again, I didn't really appreciate younger, but now it's something that we do all of the time during the summer.

Speaker 2:
[43:33] So essentially you are closer to your family and closer to all of the things that the East Coast has to offer. I mean, the East Coast is pretty amazing, as well as all of the entertainment that New York City has. And even just walking in Central Park is so much of an amazing thing. So when I'm visiting there, I can see what an awesome space it is. It's just, it's a really magical place. Walli, where can people find out more about you online?

Speaker 3:
[44:00] I am most active on Instagram and I have an Instagram, and it's financially underscore thriving. I also have a blog that I'm sort of revitalizing. I just wrote recently about like sort of a reflection piece of like my first two years in financial independence, and that's called Millers on Fire. And I started that blog anonymously several years ago to sort of share like what I was learning on the journey. But I just recently wrote two blog posts of like some of the things that I hadn't expected in financial independence. So if you're interested in that, people can find me there.

Speaker 2:
[44:38] Awesome. All right, that was Walli Miller, and that was a really fun story. I really appreciate that she reached out to us to let us know that, no, Scott, you are incorrect. You can reach financial independence even if you're living in an expensive area. Would you like more financial independence information? Hop on over to biggerpocketsmoney.com and sign up for our newsletter. I'll only send it once a week. We also have free resources, templates, and calculators to help you accelerate your journey to FI. And we can't wait to see you all again tomorrow for Paula Pant's episode. Obviously, as you know, you can afford anything but not everything. So we're excited to hear how Paula can afford to live in New York City. That wraps up this episode of the Bigger Pockets Money Podcast. His name is Scott Trench. I am Mindy Jensen saying, Take care, Brown Bear.

Speaker 1:
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