transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
[01:08] What's up, everybody? Happy WHOA That's Good Podcast Day. I am so excited about the conversation we are about to have. And to be honest, it might end up being a little bit like marriage counseling, which Christian and I are totally here for.

Speaker 4:
[01:21] It'll definitely be a counseling.

Speaker 3:
[01:23] Hey, there's a reason I invited you to come on this episode.

Speaker 4:
[01:26] I love being counseled.

Speaker 3:
[01:28] I felt like we both needed to hear every word that Dr. Emerson is here to bring today. If you don't know who Dr. Emerson is, he's really no stranger to probably most of you. But he wrote a book called Love and Respect. He has a new book out. I have it right here, Lightbulb Moments in Marriage. If you are a married couple listening to this podcast, it is going to bless you. If you're not married yet, I highly encourage you to still listen to this podcast because there are going to be so many truths in here that are just good for any stage and any season of your life. So much biblical advice that I can't wait to dive into. But without further ado, Dr. Emerson, thank you so much for coming on the WHOA That's Good Podcast.

Speaker 5:
[02:08] Oh, no, thank you. And what an example both of you are, just your humble hearts, teachable hearts, we're all in admiration of you. And here you are just soaking in these ideas potentially. And so what an example.

Speaker 3:
[02:21] Thank you for that. Thank you so much. So there's a question I ask everyone who comes on the WHOA That's Good Podcast. This might be a hard one for you to answer up upfront, just because you have probably given so much advice in your life. But the question is, what is the best piece of advice that you've ever been given? What's some advice someone gave you that helped shape you to become the person that you are today?

Speaker 5:
[02:45] Well, one of the early things happened when I was a freshman at Wheaton College in a class called Interpersonal Dynamics. And it was like, I didn't even know there was a field of study like that. And this professor said, before you speak to people, you need to ask this question. Is that what you are about to say, going to build trust or undermine trust? And that was perhaps one of the most revolutionary piece of advice. I was just ready to hear that. Because I think I wanted to be an effective person. I wanted to serve people. I wanted to help people. But I had a tendency to be intense. I even spoke in chapel during the summer. The chaplain asked me to speak to the wheat and body of the students there. And I met with him afterwards. And I wanted him to tell me how wonderful I was. And he said, well, I just have one piece of advice. I said, well, what? Don't beat the sheep. That was classic. I love the metaphor. So I was too intense. And so I had to kind of be more restful. Is that which I'm about to say, going to build trust with this person or not? And it applies. I've been married to Sarah over 50 years. Still, is this going to build trust or is this going to undermine trust? Am I coming across in a way that feels accusatory, too intense? That, for whatever it's worth, was one of the most helpful pieces of insight that I received. Whether it's relevant to others, I don't know. But I certainly have been.

Speaker 4:
[04:11] Well, that's so good, because like you said, it affects the dialogue with your spouse or with another person. But I feel like it also helps you, even from the gossip standpoint, of the idea of, if I start saying this about this person, is that going to build trust, or is that going to tear them down? Yeah, so it's effective from your...

Speaker 3:
[04:31] Across the board.

Speaker 4:
[04:32] It's across the board. So I think that's cool to look at it through that lens, too, about the gossip.

Speaker 3:
[04:37] That's good. We've been talking about that a lot lately, and so that's really cool to hear you say. And I love that, don't beat the sheep. That's actually really good advice, too. That was like a little side piece of advice in that story, but I'm like, actually, that's really, really good. I love it so much. It's cool, too, that you heard that advice and then adapted. We're big Survivor fans. We love to watch Survivor. And one of my favorite things about watching Survivor is you get to see so much humanity in this game, in the way that they're playing. And one of the things that I love about any good player is they start to realize at the beginning, maybe what's making the rest of the tribe mad at them or frustrated at them or bothered. And then they adjust their game play. They're like, oh, it's annoying to people whenever I don't pick up the wood and serve the fire. It's annoying to people whenever I talk like this. So I need to adjust my game play. And it's amazing how those good players end up making it to the end because they made this one pivot day four in their attitude or behavior that served them well in all of their relationships. And I think in life, it's a good lesson. Like you heard this at Wheaton College and here you are. How many years did you say you've been married?

Speaker 5:
[05:46] Over 50, we married in 1973 before you were a thought in the mind of God.

Speaker 3:
[05:51] That is amazing. And it's like that one pivot has served you so well in your relationship for over 50 years. So I just love that so much. Before we get into the book and everything, and the things you've written and done, tell us a little bit about your background. How were you raised? What about your background kind of shaped even why you do what you do today?

Speaker 5:
[06:13] Good question. I was not raised in a Christian home. My mom and dad didn't know the Lord. I have an older sister, five years older than me. So the four of us, I grew up in Peoria, Illinois. And when I was two and a half, I witnessed my dad attempt to strangle my mother. He had her up against a refrigerator. I didn't ever surface that scene until after my dad had died. And I brought it up to mom and she said, you were too young to know that. And I described what happened and I said, is that what happened? She said, exactly. And I said, well, I wasn't too young. But I spoke to the Liberty University student body, what 10, 12,000 students about being the wounded healer. And this upbringing affected me. And my dad later committed adultery. Dad had rage issues. Mother had two businesses. She taught acrobatics and tap dancing and swimming. She was very successful, very dynamic. But she felt I needed to go to military school. So at age 13, she paid for me to go to military school. So I was there from age 13 to 18 at Missouri Military Academy. But at 16, I went to a movie called For Pete's Sake by Billy Graham. And that's where I heard the gospel, that God love made it. But my sins separated me from that love. But Christ died for me. And all I had to do is receive Christ into my heart for forgiveness. And I came forward in that Liberty theater. And I found out that Billy Graham had gone to Wheaton. I was headed for West Point. I had met with my congressman, the president of the academy, can make recommendations. And so I was thinking West Point. But when I found out that Billy Graham went to Wheaton, I thought Billy and I were the only two that knew what was coming down. But I applied and my freshman year, my mom's watching me, my dad's watching, my sister's watching me, her husband who's a professor watched me. My freshman year at Wheaton, all four of them prayed to receive Christ. So my whole family came to Christ. But the dynamics of male and female communication, the problems mom and dad had, I think was a significant factor. And then being a military school with no girls at that time, at the academy, I thought, how do we communicate with females? And how should dad have communicated with mom? And they changed, when they came to Christ, they changed. Dad was driving mom to speak at Christian Women's Club about how Christ had changed them and their marriage. And so they changed, but I still had to process the upbringing. And I think the male and female dynamic and communication was deep in my soul. And I wanted to try to figure it out better than my dad had done. And I'm so grateful that things kind of worked in that direction.

Speaker 4:
[08:53] It was incredible.

Speaker 3:
[08:54] It's so cool. Thank you for sharing that part of your story. I know that's going to resonate with so many people. And also just the message of hope and encouragement, because so many people are living within family. A lot of people who listen to this podcast, we get this response a lot of times. Your podcast is the only place that I hear Christian conversations, godly conversations. I haven't seen that model in my home. So when your mom comes on, I'm learning so much from her. When your grandma comes on. And that's why I love having people like you come on, because so many people are coming here for godly advice. Maybe they've never gotten before. And it's really cool to hear you say that you weren't raised in a godly family. I mean, it's sad to hear you say, I don't mean that's cool. It's cool for people to know that they can relate to that. And now, you know, look at what you've done for all these years to help so many families and what the enemy went for evil, God really can take and turn it for so much good. And so this is so encouraging.

Speaker 4:
[09:46] I have a quick question about the... So when you said the Billy Graham movie that you went to go watch, were you, because I know that you did not have a really a reference point to faith and Christianity, did someone invite you to that or did you seek that out or was it something that someone invited you to and you had no idea what you were showing up to?

Speaker 5:
[10:04] No, I think the good question. It was an elder in a Presbyterian church that would have been when that denomination is a bit more conservative, gave free tickets and they were all free to the cadet corps and anybody who wanted to go could go. And so, I don't know why I even, that's a good question. I don't know what prompted me to go. But I did go and on that invitation and that's where I sat in that Liberty Theater, which is ironic. I was liberated that day. And received Christ into my life. And it was a true conversion. I mean, it really was significant.

Speaker 3:
[10:40] Wow, that is so cool. I love it. This time of the year, the days are getting longer and the nights feel a bit shorter, whether it's evening at the ballpark or squeezing in a date night. Life's just busier. For me, good sleep isn't a luxury. It is a necessity. So upgrading to a Helix Sleep Mattress was legit. One of the best decisions we made for our home because honestly, I didn't realize how much my old mattress was affecting me until we made the switch. Now I'm falling asleep faster, staying asleep longer and waking up feeling more rested. Even if the girls wake me up during the night, which they do, it's kind of a thing. To help find the best fit for you, Helix offers a super simple sleep quiz that matches you to your perfect mattress for your sleep style. That's how Christian and I got matched with the midnight model. It's not too firm, not too soft, and perfect for us as side sleepers. Helix mattresses also have reduced motion transfer, which is amazing for this season of life, like when I'm feeding Kit in the middle of the night, or when Honey and Haven come and crawl in bed with us. It really is just amazing. We actually just gave our midnight mattress to a friend who is obsessed with it now, and we got the new Midnight Elite mattress, and it's legit, and we love it so much. So we are giving the gift of Helix and receiving it for ourselves. So don't wait, try Helix for yourself. With their 120 night sleep trial, there's no pressure. They seriously make upgrading so easy. Go to helixsleep.com/sadie for 20% off site wide. Again, that's helixsleep.com/sadie for 20% off. Make sure that you enter our show's name when you check out so that they know we sent you there. That's helixsleep.com/sadie. So this is a really cool story. Let me tell you, let me tell you our little piece of our personal story with love and respect. This blows on mine. Okay, so Christian and I, how long ago was this? Do you remember? Our marriage counseling? Yeah, when we went, this is not, this was like two years ago, not like pre-marital counseling. It was probably like two years ago. Christian and I were, you know, just a little, we were struggling a little bit. Okay. We just had this, which I'll get to in the book, but the crazy cycle was very much so our cycle. We could not figure it out. Our communication, it was just like every time we started to have a conversation, it would not take long before it just went south. And everything you described in the book was like so similar to how we would do. Shut down, go outside, go on a walk, leave, not know what to say, frustrated, the whole thing. So we went to our marriage counselor. We've been seeing the same counselor since pre-marriage, and we did like our premarital counseling. She's amazing. She's been on this podcast several times, Ms. Tara Tucker. And it was so wild because we go to Ms. Tara two years ago, and we're like, we're struggling. And we were, before we even said anything though, she always says, I prayed before y'all came, asked the Holy Spirit, you know, how could I speak into y'all's life? And she said, there's a book I want to give y'all. I think this is going to be so helpful for y'all. And she said, but here's the crazy thing. She said, when I was praying about y'all, the Lord just put on my heart, I need to give y'all the book, Love and Respect. She said, I have given this book to so many people. This has served so many marriages so well. She said, but the crazy thing is, I pull out the copy in my bookshelf thinking it's my copy I'm going to give to y'all. And she said, I opened it and the letter in the front, this was what was in Ms. Tara's bookshelf says, Sadie and Christian, may God bless you with love and respect. Dr. Emerson and Sarah. So I have no idea how this landed in Ms. Tara's bookshelf and not to us, but she gave it to us at the most perfect time we could have ever needed it.

Speaker 4:
[14:25] Thinking it was her book.

Speaker 3:
[14:26] Thinking it was her book. Is that not crazy?

Speaker 5:
[14:29] That really is. I mean, that's very, it's kind of like the Lord may be saying, Hey, I have good news for you. I am going to encourage you and bless you. And we talk about signs, wonders and miracles. Miracles, the blind see, wonders are kind of like even the creation. But signs point to something. When Jesus told the fishermen, cast your nets, he was a carpenter. It's kind of like they've been fishing all night. It wasn't a miracle that they caught all those fish, but it was a sign. I mean, you could say, well, it's just a coincidence. But they knew because it pointed to something. And this is a little thing, but a significant thing. It would be what we would call a sign. The Lord was really trying to encourage both of you. And partly because you have a platform and you have a heavy responsibility. And I believe you feel that pressure in these kinds of our God moments. And I thought of your child, whoa, good.

Speaker 3:
[15:22] Whoa, that's good.

Speaker 5:
[15:23] This is really, well, this is whoa, this is God.

Speaker 3:
[15:26] Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 5:
[15:26] Whoa, this is God. And what a joy for you to receive that because you need encouragement like that. Now, signs can be misread. We can read into things that we ought not to. But I'm going to go on record and say that was pretty pointed.

Speaker 3:
[15:39] That was definitely pretty pointed. You could not miss God in that saying, hey, you two, you need to learn how to love and respect. So I'm so excited to talk about this because we had definitely seen this be pivotal in how we communicate with each other. I am happy to say two years later, we have way better communication, such a stronger marriage. And I look back, even as I was listening to the audio book. This morning, I was laughing thinking, man, we were really struggling two years ago. And this is, I'm so grateful how far we've come. And we have a long way to go. We are so far, you know, so far to go. You're at 50 plus years, we're at almost seven. So we got a long way to go, but we've learned so much. And this was so foundational. But before we dive into some of the specific things, can you just tell us the basis of love and respect a little bit about Ephesians 5?

Speaker 5:
[16:30] Yes, I was a pastor. I exposited scripture. I studied the Bible 30 hours a week. I was in an academic community, East Lansing, home of Michigan State University, the Spartans. And so 20 years, pastored there, pulpit ministry, teaching. And I came across this verse, Ephesians 5.33, husbands love your wives, agape love, and wives respect your husbands. I had my PhD in family studies, and I knew that respecting a man would fly like a lead zeppelin. It wasn't going to play. Women say, I don't feel respect for him. He hasn't earned it. He doesn't deserve it. He's not superior to me. I'm not inferior to him. I'm not going to be treated like a doormat. I believe you have a hidden agenda of returning to patriarchy, not going to go there, not going to set the feminist team back 50 years. I certainly not going to subject myself to emotional abuse. But other than these things, Dr. Emerson, I'm really open to hearing what you have to say about this. And that's where we're at as a culture. Christian and I serve and die for honor. The gladiator, saving private Ryan, you know. These, we serve and die for honor, but the feminist movement sees this as narcissistic, as egotistical. But as I got into this passage, I realized there must be something from the father's heart to us that's important. And why would God command a wife to put on a respectful demeanor? Why would God command a husband to put on a loving demeanor? And no wife is commanded to a God-feel-of-her-husband. That's only in the marriage passages, applies to the husband. That is very telling. That silence screamed at me. And so as I exposited this and studied this, I realized, ah, and I said to Sarah, what happens when I fail to love you? You tend to negatively react. Your default mechanism is a negative reaction. You don't default to positivity, you know. There's a negative reaction. And I'll bet it appears to me as a man is disrespectful. And maybe that's why the Lord has commanded you to put on respect and why God has commanded me to put on love. Because when you feel unlove, it's natural for you to appear to me as disrespectful. When I feel disrespected, it's very natural for me to react in ways like withdrawing. Eighty-five percent of those who withdraw in stonewalls, the male, appear to you as unloving. And as I meditated more and more, that's when this crazy cycle emerged. Without love, she reacts without respect. Without respect, he reacts without love. Without love, she reacts without respect. And this baby starts spinning. And I always ask our audience at our conferences, have you had a conflict with your spouse recently when the issue didn't seem to be the issue and something else was going on? The issue was real, but it wasn't the root because now you're off on this other issue. In most cases, she's probably feeling unloved, right or wrong, and he's probably feeling disrespected, right or wrong. And so the question is, how do we get off of that crazy cycle? And that's been our ministry and mission for all these years, helping couples jump off sooner.

Speaker 3:
[19:31] It's so good.

Speaker 4:
[19:32] We definitely a crazy cycle.

Speaker 3:
[19:34] We needed to jump off, we needed to dive off. And I'm so glad that we did. I mean, for those listening, if you start reading this book, I mean, it didn't take us long to realize why Ms. Tara would have naturally thought to give us this book. But I think it was also a prompt from the Holy Spirit as well. But it was so encouraging. And one of the things that you talk about in the book is how this is so obvious. So why don't we do it? You know, like this is something, Ephesians 5 is like one of the most, you know, I mean, one of the, there's a lot of times in scripture it talks about marriage, but like that seems to be the one that we go to a lot. And it's so obvious. But why do we struggle with it so much? Like, why is it so hard for the woman to respect? And why is it so hard for the man to get out love when it seems like, oh, that would just fix all of our problems? What is that root in all of us that that's hard to get past? If I could say that.

Speaker 5:
[20:30] Right. Because we don't intend to be unloving or disrespectful. So when we get on a crazy cycle, let's say with Christian, when he has shortcomings, as I have shortcomings, you're going to react in a way because of hurt, maybe frustration, maybe a measure of anger, and you're going to respond to him as a woman. And women tend to be critical. They'll complain. This is the research. You'll give voice to this because you care. But in that caring, because you're trying to help him understand you, you come across in a way that probably nobody talks to him. So it appears and hears as disrespectful to him. But that's not your aim. You're not trying to say, hey, you don't get up early in the morning to storyboard ways to show him disrespect. That isn't even your mindset. Actually, you're feeling vulnerable. And so something happens that you feel unloved, you seek to do the loving thing by aggressively moving toward him to give voice to what it is that hurt you. You suddenly hear him saying, you're being disrespectful again, which blows your mind and you feel even more unloved. And there are four levels of proof that you're right. And then when you talk with your girlfriends, they all have the same story. And so you're not, you don't want to be right. You just know that you are right. So there is this lack of ill will. And the same thing on the man. Men are not putting a voice in vocabulary, but he comes home. He's just a good hearted guy, like King David comes in after having worshiped the Lord. And Michael, his wife, looks at with disgust, she's despising. He came home to bless when suddenly he gets this onslaught of contempt. And he said, I will be more lightly esteemed. So he comes in and suddenly feels disrespected. He tries to do the honorable thing, probably by not escalating the thing. And so pulls back withdraws only to hear that he's the most unloving person on the side of the Mississippi River. And he feels even more disrespected. And so he's looking at this and think, man, I can never be good enough. She's telling me I'm inadequate and she doesn't respect me. And so what happens is that he doesn't see his own reaction as unloving. She doesn't see her own reaction as disrespectful. So one of my calls, based on 1 Corinthians 7, verses 33 and 34, Paul said, the husband is concerned about how to please his wife and the wife is concerned about how to please her husband. And we all have to come to a point where we're going to believe that scripture more than we're believing our feelings in the moment of the craziness. That's good. And I ask people, does your wife have goodwill? Basic goodwill. It doesn't mean that she has good follow-through and it doesn't mean we don't have nasty moments. But in the deepest core, does she have goodwill? And almost 100 percent of men say yes, unless she's committing adultery or something. But almost every man will say yes. Does your husband have basic goodwill? Would he literally die for you if someone came in to threaten? And Jesus Christ said, No, greater love is a man than this. And he laid down his life for his friend. Does your husband have basic goodwill? And women say yes. So what we have to then do in these crazy moments happen when they happen to Sarah and me, we don't like each other when it gets crazy. But one of my roles is say, honey, we're allies, not enemies. We're friends, not foes. We're on the same team. We're not opponents. Now, let's have our argument.

Speaker 3:
[23:49] That's good. I love that.

Speaker 4:
[23:52] I have so many thoughts.

Speaker 3:
[23:53] I know everything he brings down, it's like, yes, yes, that's exactly what happens. But I love how you said it's good willed people who genuinely love each other, and it's not their aim to hurt each other. And I think that's why it was so confusing. Why we were struggling so much is because I genuinely love him so much, and he loves me so much, and we know that and we're good people and we're good friends. And it doesn't seem like we have these problems in any other relationships in our life. And why is it like that with us when we actually do love each other? And then that piece of the puzzle was like, oh, I can see why this keeps happening because I'm not meaning to sound critical. You talk about criticism and stuff like that whenever I'm encouraging you. But I can see how that might sound that way. I'm trying to encourage you. I'm trying to help you. But you don't need me to do that. You don't need me to respect you. The whole thing, it was like, whoa, it's actually a lightbulb moment in marriage of like this is why this keeps happening, you know. I feel like one thing motherhood has taught me is to be more mindful, especially when it comes to what my kids are watching, because that content shapes them more than we realize. Screens are just part of life these days, but I still want that time to be healthy for them. And that's why we love the Mendo app. It is such a game changer for families who want their kids to grow in their faith in a way that's fun and engaging. Mendo is the number one streaming service for Christian kids content, filled with shows that spark their imagination and point them back to God in the Bible. I love that it makes it so easy to experience faith together, whether it's just a quick show during the day while I take a phone call or something they can watch while I make dinner. They got some favorites just the other morning, we were turning on Veggie Tales on the Mendo app on the TV and Honey loves Veggie Tales. Haven's favorite is Young David. They also have the new Light of the World movie. So many great things on there. So not only can you actually trust the shows that they're watching, but it's also all ad free, which is amazing. At the end of the day, it's about more than just keeping my kids entertained. It's about helping them grow into who they're meant to be. Like I said, my kids just absolutely love the Mendo app. They love all their little shows, and it's really cool to hear the stories they know about Jesus just from the shows that they're watching. So visit gomendo.com to start your free trial today. Plus, you can use the code WHOA to get your first month for free. Hey-o, this is a web-only exclusive offer, so make sure to sign up on the gomendo.com website with the code WHOA to get your first month for free.

Speaker 4:
[26:28] I love how you said there's levels to it, and it is a cycle because there are times where there is something said and it's atone, but a lot of times, it's the things that go unsaid is when you feel not respected, so if it's, you know, so for me, it's like if I do the dishes and then take the trash out and then do all these things, it's like if there's no appreciation for that, then to me, I could feel disrespected, and then for you, if you come home from work and if I'm uninterested in your day, then you don't feel loved, so a lot of times, it's the things that go unsaid that lead to those triggers of not feeling respected, not feeling loved, and then oftentimes, too, yeah, it is the tone in which you can say things, and I feel like for us, oftentimes, it's the things that go unsaid that leave you feeling disrespected and unloved.

Speaker 3:
[27:16] Actually, on the note of tone, one of my favorite things you said in the book is, it's like maybe in Chapter 1, but you talked about how when you said to Sarah, you're saying the right thing, but you're wrong at the top of your voice or something like that. It's like the right thing with the wrong tone really does matter, and I could see that even for me, because it's kind of like beat the sheep, I have a strong way of talking sometimes, where I'm like, I'm trying to be encouraging, but it sounds like too aggressive. Aggressive, yes. And so it's like a coach. It's like, that's not what you need from a wife. And so I love that. Can you speak a little bit about just the power of our tone and how we speak to one another from a wife and a husband perspective? Because you even talk about this, we can go into the pink and the blue, the pink hearing aids and glasses and the blue as well is very helpful.

Speaker 5:
[28:09] Well, I talk about hone the tone, hone the tone, and that's one way of expressing. But yeah, you can be right but wrong at the top. Your voice is the quote there. And that is proclivity for all of us. We have a propensity when we're upset or we're a little insecure to overreact and come out maybe a little bit louder, but also just normal inner personal dynamics. Women are just going to express themselves. They're not trying to be disrespectful. They're actually trying to be caring and helpful pointing out something if he just kind of did that. I'm sharing this with you to help you. But men have vulnerabilities where women don't and women have vulnerabilities where men don't. He says, is that your second piece of cake? Whoa. We all have vulnerabilities and if we're not aware of that, it's so easy to be dismissive because if we're equal, therefore we should be the same. If we're equal, therefore we should be identical. But God made us different and yet what happens, we're just approaching this in innocence. We're approaching this with goodwill as we've been talking about. You're trying to do the loving thing. You're not trying to be disrespectful. However, one of the things that we can begin to do if we're thinking, yeah, I feel like I'm in dark on this, Emerson. I don't really know then because I think I'm trying to help. Then suddenly my spouse shuts down on me. What a woman needs to do is introduce what I call the respect talk and the man needs to introduce the love language. So if we see the spirit of our spouse deflate, we don't even have to do something proactive. We can say, wait a minute, I'm not trying to be disrespectful here. You're an honorable man who would die for me if I don't kill you first. But you're an honorable man. So help me say this in a way that you don't feel that my underlying motive here is to diss you. I'm oblivious. I know I don't do this well. Help me because you're an honorable man. I don't want to diss you, but I am upset about something. How can I have this conversation without you thinking I've got another agenda and that's to put you down, say that you're inadequate and that I don't respect you because of it? And same thing, saying to Sarah, help me here. You know my old man, you know his rage issues. I don't want to get, I want to say this in a loving way, but help me say this in a loving way. I don't want to be unloving in this. So if we introduce it with the love and respect concept, sometimes that's very disarming because the other person sees our sincerity. So those who are new to this, you don't have to be a perfect lover, a perfect respecter. Just tell them that you're not trying to be unloving.

Speaker 3:
[30:34] That's actually really good.

Speaker 5:
[30:35] I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

Speaker 3:
[30:37] That is really good. That's been really helpful for us. We've had to talk about that a lot.

Speaker 4:
[30:41] Well, I think too, and it's like you've kind of said too, it's like there also is like, even for men to be respected, and you kind of mentioned this earlier, but I think sometimes that idea of, you know, the respect aspect, it can seem domineering of like, you just need to respect me. And it's like, there also needs to be accountability for men to be, well, if you want to feel respected, then you need to do things that are respectable. So if you come home, or if you're living your life in a way that you aren't loving your wife, you're not honoring your kids, you're not being a good man, you can't just demand respect because it says it in the Bible. Yes, yes, it's Biblical, but you have to live out these traits that are going to make somebody respect you. You can't just demand respect and there'll be no accountability in your life. And I think that's when the domineering and just kind of that assertiveness can be misguided is when you're demanding something that you're not exuding. But I love how you kind of hit on that earlier, because I think sometimes in our culture, we can get wrapped up in it.

Speaker 5:
[31:50] Yeah, no, that's exactly right. And one of the things I say is that I never have told Sarah to submit to me and haven't ever said, you're not respecting me, because that's God's command to her. That's God's command to her. And so I don't go over on that side of the equation. I made a commitment. God calls me to love Sarah. Now, we'll have discussions where she will see me deflate. She said, I come across as disrespectful. I'll give voice. Yeah, that felt disrespectful to me. But it's not accusatory. It's more of helping us mutually understand each other. And so I say to men who are men of honor, do we have a right to say to our wives, you must submit, you must respect me? Because the minute I do that, then I'm probably not leading in love. Because the better way to get her to respond is to say, and I said it guys, if your wife's coming across to you disrespectful, why not ask this way? That just felt very disrespectful to me. But that I just come across earlier in an unloving way that triggered the crazy cycle, help me understand what I did to trigger this negative reaction. Help me understand what I did that was unloving. A true leader, an honorable man, is not afraid of asking that question. And I sometimes say to men, you have enough courage to die for this woman, but do you have enough courage to live with her? And do you have enough courage to ask that question? Because that's really the way you need to approach it. And so the challenge is, if she's coming across disrespectfully, and if she's got goodwill, she doesn't want to do that, that's not a turn on to her. That's not her goal. She's usually upset, hurting, and she's insecure, and she's negatively reacting to get your attention through the deeper cry of her heart. So if you say, did I just come across as unloving because what you just did here felt so disrespectful to me? Can we talk about that? And if you're a man's man, you'll do that. It's not a comfortable conversation. It's much easier just to intimidate her and threaten her. But that's not good leadership. And the same thing with a woman who's a great leader, dynamic person, you say, well, you're this wonderful leader. Hey, if you see very clearly that he's come across in an unloving way rather than just speak contempt and disrespect, have enough courage as a great leader to say, honey, that just came across as very unloving to me. Did I say or do something earlier that felt disrespectful to you? Did I fail to express appreciation for taking out the garbage? Did I notice you've been moody? Did I do something that contributed to this? Don't be afraid. But this is what's really the issue here. We're afraid of doing that. So part of the self-awareness that even you talked about earlier, we have to become self-aware. Why would I not do that? Well, I'm fearful. I'm fearful that they're going to say, yeah, and that's what you do all the time. You're the most unloving human being on the planet. You're the most disrespectful creature on the planet. So if we're going to give into that fear, then I would have you step back and ask yourself, hey, maybe this is a moment for me to be a little bit more courageous because at the end of the day, the only thing that's here is going on is social ostracism. This isn't death. This isn't persecution. This is social ostracism at its worst. And the question is, can we handle this? You know, or is it going to be, you can't handle the truth?

Speaker 3:
[35:06] That's so good. I love when you talk about to like, who's going to be the first to apologize or to come have the conversation. And you say, well, which of you is the most mature? It's like, oh, that's so challenging and so good. Because yes, you got to swallow your pride to have those conversations or be brave enough or courageous enough to have those conversations, despite the feelings of fear that you're having or insecure that you're having. One of the things that I'm thinking about is that, you know, in our culture today, we love to like, we love to do things like Enneagram, Meyers-Briggs. We love to like know who we are. We love even, what's your love language? And so, you know, I could say, oh, I love Words of Affirmation and he loves Quality Time. Or we can go to the Meyers-Briggs and it's like, he's more of the feelings person. I'm more of the thinking person. Like, we have all these things and how we respond. I can see people going, well, yeah, I'm a girl, but I actually need respect or yeah, I'm the guy. You know what I'm saying? They might think, yeah, they're this person and they're that person. They're the wife or the husband, but it's actually different for them because of the type of personality that they have. I love how even going on that, and I want you to speak to that. You even talk about how Aretha Franklin's song, you know, Aria, S-P-E-C-T, if I know what it means to me, like girls love that song. Cause like, yeah, we need respect. And there's this feminism movement of like, we want that more manly role sometimes, I guess. And so can you speak to just like the core of like, how we were created from God by God to need love and a man's need for respect. And those aren't really interchangeable. I mean, yes, we both need both, but like, it's not like a personality test thing. It's a how we were designed thing. Spring is one of those seasons when people start thinking about what's next, whether that's starting something new, finishing a degree or starting to think about what school might look like for your kids next year. And that's why I want to tell you about Liberty University, a school I genuinely love. Their mission is to train champions for Christ, which means students are grounded in biblical truth while also growing academically. And that balance really matters. If you've been thinking about an online education, you have to check out Liberty University online programs. I actually took online classes myself from Liberty and it was such a great experience. They offer more than 600 degrees, and most courses are 100% online with no required login times, so that you can really learn anytime, anywhere. Their classes really are amazing. My sister has been a Liberty student for a long time. She has furthered her education and seeing her balance so much of what she does in life while also doing school is very inspiring. She does a great job with it. So if you're looking for something for your kids, Liberty University Online Academy is a fully accredited K through 12th private Christian online school. My sister Bella did that. So LUOA and had a great experience, ex flexible, self-paced, supported by certified teachers and students can even join clubs, field trips and other activities so that they still get that community experience. And here's something really special just for my WHOA That's Good listeners. Application fees are waived for all Liberty programs. Right now, you can also enter for the $50,000 Sadie Scholarship Giveaway for a chance to win one of multiple scholarships for Liberty University. So go ahead, take the next step in your journey. Visit liberty.edu/sadie to enter the giveaway and get on your path to purpose. Don't wait. Visit liberty.edu/sadietoday.

Speaker 5:
[38:43] Yeah, no, I think it's an excellent question. I mean, one point is that we all need love and respect equally. I mean, I do believe that. We need it equally. But we've asked 7,000 people this question. When you're in a conflict with your spouse, are you more likely to feel in love at that moment or more likely to feel disrespected? Eighty-three percent of the men said they feel disrespected. From a statistical standpoint, that is statistically significant and it's off charts. And 72 percent of the women say they feel unloved. But to the point you're making, there's a percentage of people, he feels unloved, she feels disrespected. And I have a whole chapter in Love and Respect about how to honor, esteem and respect your wife based on 1 Peter 3 verse 7, where a husband is to live with his wife and honor her as a fellow heir of the grace of life. So I never push back on the woman who says, you know, I need respect. My mother needed to be respected. I come out of that. Dad was disrespectful and dishonoring of mom. And so that is big on my radar screen. At the same time, there's not 1 movie that ends with the hero embracing the damsel saying, I want to respect you the rest of my life.

Speaker 3:
[39:59] True.

Speaker 5:
[40:01] And if you'll see every movie where the woman is feeling, do you love me? And so there is this cultural, I think, recognition of that. And so to me, it's not a matter of choosing one or the other. If you get on the crazy cycle and you're reversed, and some are, then the same applies. If she's feeling disrespected, that needs to be addressed. There are times Sarah feels disrespected. I dismiss, maybe come across dismissing her opinion. And so she's feeling, I don't feel unloved this moment. I feel like you're not respecting me. And so each person has to be aware of that. But if there is this cultural pushback, particularly among females, it's almost dominantly female. Women kick into a default mode that they somehow are going to be dismissed. And so there is always a counter. I wrote a book called Mother and Son. And Mother and Son on all the emails mothers were sending me about how they applied this to their sons with, and they began to connect with their sons. But whenever I go in an area and I say, I've written this book called Mother and Son, the first question, almost every woman in the room said, when are you going to write one on father daughter? They will hijack the conversation, not because they're ill willed, but because they've been conditioned to believe that you're saying something against women if you say something favorable about men. And so if we say a man is motivated to serve and die for honor and respect, it isn't too long before some women will take that conversation back over to themselves. And these nurturing, loving individuals need to step back and ask, wait a minute, we're not saying something against your daughters when we're talking about your sons. I'm talking about Christian here. Let's let Christian give voice to this himself. And if a woman says, I need R-E-S-P-E-C-T, and by the way, Otis Redding wrote that song and it was a song to his wife. And Aretha Franklin came along and turned it. So I say in our conferences, men, we had one song, one song and even that they took. They took the one song we had.

Speaker 4:
[41:57] That is really funny. Well, I love to, because I think even the idea of love and respect, it's so helpful in marriage, in relationships, but it also crosses boundaries to friendships. And I think it provides such a healthy framework for friendships and how you do friendships in life. And you have in-law dynamics, you have all kinds of things. And it's even been helpful for us to where there's situations with friendships where it might be something like if I don't get invited somewhere, right? My primary instinct is I don't feel respected by this person if they invite all my other friends, but they don't invite me. I don't necessarily feel unloved. I feel, do they not respect me? And then for her, it's kind of the same thing. If she gets left out of something, her primary instinct is, I feel unloved or unwanted, so it's even helped us communicate in those aspects to where if something happens like that and there's a flare up, she might be kind of confused by why that maybe triggered me so much, but because it is that core instinct of feeling disrespected and desiring to be respected. So yes, it's helped us so much in marriage, but also just in life and relationships. And so I'm saying that to the person listening, if you're single, if you're not married, if you're not dating, it still is a primary core in how you do friendships, in your relationship with your family. So I think it even just crosses those boundaries outside of marital relationships too.

Speaker 3:
[43:30] It's so true.

Speaker 5:
[43:31] Yeah. And you have a happier audience, I believe, is single and it's challenging for women in particular, think, okay, when I come across to a man or anybody, do I come across in a way that appears disrespectful? We know your hearts may be hurting, you're longing, they're trying to get a message through. I applaud all of that and I'm 100 percent in your camp. But if you misrepresent yourself, if you come across in a way that's way too negative, too disrespectful, you're trying to be rescued sometimes, trying to help them see that they hurt you, stepped on your arrows. It's important for you to step back like in that class that I was in freshman. Is that which I'm about to say going to build trust or on my trust? Is that which I'm about to say going to come across disrespectful? Maybe they deserve disrespect, but you can't motivate people with contempt. It never works. It's toxic. It is the number one toxic ingredient, contempt and disrespect. That's why I had my choice between two people living in a relationship lovingly or a relationship respectfully. The research at the University of Washington said contempt is the most toxic. And this is why Peter tells wives to respect and husbands to honor. He never talks about love. He talks about respect and honor. And therefore, if you want to develop in one area, as a woman in particular, how do I come across in a way that's respectful without losing power? And respect doesn't mean that you somehow acquiesce. No, it's unconditional positive regard toward the spirit of another human being. So as you're communicating what upset you, when you're communicating the truth, you do so in a way that shows respect to their inner person. You're coming across, well, as Jesus said, the spirit's willing but the flesh is weak. So they may have failed you, but Jesus never showed contempt toward the spirit of the three disciples that fell asleep. He came across to them as saying, your spirit's willing, but your flesh is weak. And so the important thing is, what's my attitude like when I'm giving voice to my brother, to my father, to a male cohort? This is a beautiful moment to begin to develop. As Christian is saying, the insights on this, because it'll do you a great deal of service as you then get into a relationship. And furthermore, it may be inadvertent on your part that you're undermining relationships going forward, because you don't realize how negative and disrespectful you come across. Your heart's in the right place. So to men, if you come across as harsh and angry, one of the longings of every woman is to find a man who's kind, kindness. And if you're coming across a way that's unloving, even though you are noble and you'll give your shirt, you cannot have a demeanor that's unloving and expect any woman to be interested in you. That's so good.

Speaker 3:
[46:17] That's so good. This is so helpful. One thing I want to bring up, and this is more in the new book, Lightbulb Moments in Marriage. So you have this chapter where you talk about like the Holy Word and Hollywood. And I want to bring this up because this is such a, even knowing this conversation, this is going to encourage so many people, help so many people. There are also going to be a group of people who are frustrated by this conversation. And I know that because for me, I don't know that I've ever actually talked about this publicly or even acknowledged it publicly, but here we go. It was a few years ago, we host a conference called LO Sister Conference. And it is like one of my favorite things we get to do. We host 4,000 girls here in Monroe, Louisiana. And it is just all things like encouraging women to be like the women that God called them to be. The whole thing is called LO Sister. We're a sister and a friend to those who don't have one. We encourage each other. It's girlhood. It is fun. It's freedom. It's worship and messages and shopping together and food, eating together. Like it's amazing. It's so positive. I literally say we're throwing a birthday party for every girl and that's how we want them to feel. So it's all things happy. Well, Cosmopolitan, the magazine, started saying that I'm doing this LO sister conference and got interested in it. So they, you know, let us know that someone would be coming from Cosmopolitan to cover the conference and I thought that's interesting. And honestly, I didn't even know if it was going to be real because it felt so random that Cosmopolitan, which is known for being a very provocative magazine, would want to come to LO sister conference. So from the start, I never really felt great about it, but all are welcome. Please, you're welcome to come, be a part of the conference and we're glad you're here. Well, they asked me for an interview and I said, you know, sure. And they asked me a couple of questions and then they said, do you believe that women have to submit to men in the interview? And I was very like, it was kind of like the tone shifted, the conversation just shifted. And I was like, well, you know, in the Bible, it does talk about, you know, women submitting to the man as the spouse and as a husband. And I break down a little bit of what that means and whatnot and carry on the conversation. Okay, a couple of weeks go by and all of a sudden I wake up one morning, I'm getting texts from friends. I'm so sorry. I saw this on the news and sure enough, I scroll left and on the main news, you know, there's only like five things that are there. And one of them is Cosmopolitan Magazine with me as the headline saying that I say women have to submit to men. And then there's a seven-page spread in Cosmopolitan Magazine of My Hello Sister Conference with an underlying negative tone of what I'm telling women they have to be or should do. That was never mentioned at our conference. That's not even, that's not a focal point of our conference. That's nothing we talk about. However, she asked me that question and I said, well, that is in the Bible. That's not really, that's not Hello Sister's message here. But again, when you start talking about that, it's like people feel all of a sudden, you're saying something against women or whatever it is. And so it was just very eye opening to me, people's defense when it comes to this topic and how quickly people are like, okay, that's good. You're doing this thing, but it has to do with the Bible. And if it has to do with the Bible, there's this verse in the Bible and that makes me mad. I want to bring that up because you have that about the Holy Word in Hollywood. And I happen to have an experience in a Hollywood setting where these things clash. Can you speak to that a little bit? Because I know there are listeners who feel those walls of defense rising up. And what does this mean for me? How does that fit into everything? And maybe it's even stopping them from even a relationship with God because they don't understand how those things can work together, where it can call you to that, but you're still loved. And like you've said, equal and made in the image of God and all those things. Okay, real talk, Mother's Day gifts can feel a little repetitive. Yes, flowers are sweet, but they last what, like three days on the counter? Then it's just another thing to clean up, and that's why I'm gonna tell y'all about Ore Frames, because it is such a meaningful upgrade. It's something that keeps giving long after Mother's Day is over. So instead of giving another gift that fades, this is something that keeps her favorite memories right out in front every single day. And what's so cool is you can add unlimited photos and videos, so no awesome moments get left behind, and you can even preload it before it ships. 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Speaker 5:
[51:52] No, I'd be glad to do that. And there are several levels there. I wrote a book, Speak Your Mind. And before you speak, is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? And Cosmopolitan entrapped you. They had an agenda. They know they weren't honest. They used that against you. And they're going to be responsible for that because they're not, they weren't being truthful. They had an agenda. They didn't want to appreciate all that was going on in those 4,000 young women's lives. That wasn't their interest. They had an agenda. And in some ways, they need to be very honest with themselves about what they did. And that's on them. But in terms of if you want to know what the Bible says about submission, I teach this. I've been teaching it for 20 years. Paul says, and listen carefully to me, if you want to know what it says, not you two, but anybody out there, Ephesians 521 says, be submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ. He begins that text with verse 21. So we are to be submitted to one another out of reverence for Jesus Christ. That's that's what we do. And what does submission mean? It means you're submitting to the other's need, not submitting to the other's lust. Peter confronted Ananias and Sapphira, who lied to the Holy Spirit and they lost their lives. He didn't say to Sapphira, you are a dutiful wife and submitted to Ananias and you get to live. No, she lost her life. Peter saw firsthand that she displeased Jesus Christ because she went along with her husband. And that is very clear. Anybody who wants to know what the Bible says, it better be pretty good at it and not just take verses out of context. So first of all, we say we submit to one another out of reverence for Jesus Christ. It isn't about your spouse even, it's touching the heart of Christ. So if you don't have a relationship with Christ, those of you at Cosmopolitan, do you love Christ? Do you come out of a Christian background? Do you know what we're talking about? It's about Jesus Christ first and foremost. But then he says in that passage which you want to unpack, husbands love your wives, and then he says to, wives submit first of all, excuse me, I did that, submit to your husbands, huppotasso is the Greek word, and then husbands love your wives. That's the sequence. Then he concludes with husbands love and wives respect. And I thought, wait a minute, why doesn't he say, husbands love, wives submit? Because he had said they submit, love, you should be, wait a minute, love, submit, but he says respect. Then I went over to Peter, Peter says, you wives, huppotasso submit to your husbands, and if any of them are disobedient to the word, they can be won by your respectful behavior. Why doesn't he say submissive behavior? Because he started with submission, but then he says respect. And one day it hit me. Here's what the scripture is saying. I submit to Sarah's need to feel love for who she is when we're having needed fellowship in a doozy of a conflict. I submit to her need to feel loved. The first and foremost definition of submission for a wife is submitting to your husband's need to feel respected when you don't feel respect for him, that you respectfully address the issues that are upsetting you. That's what submission first and foremost is in the apostles' mind, both Paul and Peter. The text is very clear. Now I say if push comes to shove, if there's an, Sarah and I have never had a decision where we, you know, I had to just trump the situation. But philosophically, you can't have two heads and every organization knows that. So we say in the Christian community, it isn't the right of the husband to be the head to make that final decision in the event that happens. He has the responsibility before Jesus Christ, and he will have to give an account to Jesus Christ. The wife is not responsible for that. Philosophically, theologically, that's where we land. And I have my PhD in family studies. And when you get into the research, this is not only representative of an egalitarian position, but it is complimentary in the sense that there are male and female differences. But even today, women still expect the husband to die for them, even if they're egalitarian. It isn't like the wife says, Well, we're 50-50 here and I'll die for you. It doesn't go down that way. And so I just ask for a little empathy here for those critics to revisit this a little bit. And let's be honest about this situation. But if you want to know what the Bible says about submission, there it is first and foremost. And you have to then debate it on that level, rather than somehow say, Oh, the Christian community is telling women just to be doormats and submit and go along with anything the husband says. We don't teach that. And if you're going to speak what is true, kind, necessary and clear, you need to make sure that you do that cosmopolitan. I'm very disappointed in your editorial.

Speaker 3:
[56:33] I'm so glad I asked you that question. And I'm one of the I I love podcasting for this reason, because a lot of people on social media are so quick to make statements. And you got to come out, you got to say it. And I tend to do this for someone will happen. It will be months, years later. And I'll finally bring it up when it feels right. That's why I love having people on this podcast who have so much wisdom. I'm seeking wisdom because I haven't really addressed that. It just was what it was. I believe in what I'm doing.

Speaker 5:
[57:03] They entrapped you.

Speaker 3:
[57:04] And I know what's true. It's OK. That kind of thing. And you just keep doing your thing. But I'm so grateful that I did bring it up in this context because I learned so much even by the way you just broke that down. And that was very, very helpful. So thank you so much. And I appreciate your passion towards the subject because it really does confuse so many people. And it is huge and it's hard to get in debates with people when you don't understand the context or the truth. And also you're not coming at it again with the right tone. And those just even how you broke that down was so beautiful. That was that was awesome.

Speaker 4:
[57:39] That was so good.

Speaker 5:
[57:41] It's mutual deference. It's mutual deference. And submission is not a bad word. And so I say to the cosmopolitan people, if you're in a relationship, you'll submit to your spouse. That's why, because you love them and you respect them. You will defer to their needs at certain points. And that's what this is all about. This has been the call of Christ. He submitted himself on the cross. We don't apologize for that. But if you're saying it's always one sided man against woman, we are in the same camp as you are cosmopolitan. But you need to be part of our community to know what we teach. Don't you presume what we teach.

Speaker 3:
[58:09] That's really good. Well, I think I did say this to her that day about how Jesus, he embodied and showed submission to God by literally dying on the cross. And so it's not just something for women. It's something that our Savior showed us. It's what Jesus did on the cross. And so I think that that's such a beautiful thing that Jesus, he really can empathize with us in our weakness and all of our things because he has gone through it. As a man went through the ultimate submission and laying down his life. So everything you've been saying, it's just that was amazing. I don't have enough words. I was really good.

Speaker 4:
[58:49] Well, we're almost out of time, but I have like a selfish question to ask at the end.

Speaker 3:
[58:53] But ask it.

Speaker 4:
[58:54] Okay. So chapter nine of your book, you talk about self-awareness and being defensive. And I think in our marriage, this is something that I've seen. I've gotten a lot better at it. But for me, for a while, it was a struggle. So we've kind of talked about the endogram a little bit. I'm a type one, which, you know, just perfectionist. I'm very self-introspective to where I'm very critical of myself in certain situations. And there would be times where I would make a mistake or I would do something that if, you know, I said something I shouldn't have said, I did something I should not have done. And I'm so hyper aware of the sinfulness of that, that I, in my mind and thoughts, I'm just beating myself up, telling myself I'm stupid, I'm dumb, I shouldn't have done that. To where, when my wife goes to call it out on me, I've already, I've already beat myself up so much about it. And I'm trying to work it out in my own headspace with, with God to where she, when she lovingly speaks into it, it frustrates me. And it's this defensiveness of like, I know, I know I did that, I shouldn't have said that, I'm working that out. But can you kind of-

Speaker 3:
[60:03] in a like practical, it's kind of what you said where you say like, okay, how can I say this in a way that doesn't come off disrespectful? Because even if I would say, hey, when you said that it hurt my feelings, even if I said it very nicely or simply, because he's already beating himself up for it, he's like, I know when I said that, you know, whatever. And so then I'm like, well, I, I feel like even though I know, you know, can I still say it hurt my feelings? So we can still get to the point where- I feel like you're sorry for it, that kind of thing.

Speaker 4:
[60:35] Even if her tone was perfect, you know, perfect situation, great time to bring it up, it's still, it's still, because there is an insecurity there and there is a, there's a wall up there. But can you kind of speak into that a little bit? Like I said, this is kind of a selfish, I'm asking you this as a counselor.

Speaker 5:
[60:52] No, no, I mean, it's true. We all live there at one level or another. And that's why I wrote Lightbulb Moments. We have thousands of testimonies of people who had lightbulb moments. We referenced Chapter 9 on self-awareness, that our defensive reactions can be offensive and we don't see it. And I give a whole lot of insights along this line. And one of the points I make, sometimes we don't need more effort, we need more light. And sometimes we think we're just miles apart in relationship and just a little insight can be very, very helpful. First of all, I'd say, Christian, I like the fact that you lean in that direction because you're gonna be self-examining. And even though you beat yourself up, as you reflect on these situations, even though you may feel yourself being more insecure, and I blew it and you really punish yourself, that's going to be, I think, beneficial to you to become a man of tremendous wisdom, because you're gonna be assessing your own reactions. Why did I do that? What happened here? How can I make that different? And the pain of the moment isn't pleasurable at all. But over the next so many years, you're gonna become wiser and wiser and wiser. I'd rather have a person be in that situation where they're self-examining themselves and self-aware and beating up on themselves rather than justifying themselves and blaming everybody else. The first sin after the first sin of Abed and Eve was blame placing. He blamed the woman in God in one sentence, the woman you gave me made me eat, and then she blamed the serpent. The natural tendency in these situations is to place blame. But your natural tendency is to come inward. And it's not a pleasant experience, but I'd rather you be that way.

Speaker 3:
[62:25] Really good.

Speaker 5:
[62:26] Than the other way. So first of all, that's very, very important. But in the book, on that particular chapter, this comes back to our innocence again, our good intent. When we get on that crazy cycle, as I said earlier, we're not trying to be offensive. Without love, she reacts without respect. Without respect, he reacts without love. But you put this information in chapter nine in this, without love, defensively, she reacts offensively without respect. And without respect, defensively, he reacts offensively without love. And when we're feeling disrespected, we're on the defensive, we put up our shield, we don't understand the extent to which we're contributing to the craziness that we start offending our spouse. And then they react and we feel like they're piling on. We're in disbelief. So part of self-awareness is understanding that particular dynamic. But I think the other point, as you journal, as you reflect on these things, I just want to high-file with you because I predict in the next so many years, how old are you right now, Christian? Yeah. I mean, when you're 35, even before then, right now, you are going to be that. But you keep leaning into that. Don't be afraid of that. It's not at all pleasurable. But keep allowing that, keep reflecting. I think that is part of my temperament as well. Growing up, why did I just do that wrong? You know, you beat the sheep, right? Oh, man, you mean I was that horrible, that really weighed on me. How in the world did I come across in that way? But as a result, I began to reflect. How do you say things in a kinder way, yet truthful way? How do I come across in a way that doesn't beat the sheep? I remember being so discouraged when the chaplain said, I just have one sentence, don't beat the sheep. And I beat myself up. But I'm grateful because I became teachable, and I began to improve on that. My concern today is that people are not moving into self-awareness. They're not self-examining. They're just suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. And you're doing yourself a great disservice because you're afraid of going through the pain that we see Christian going through here in that situation. Now Sadie is saying, hey, if he didn't do, though, something, do I have a right to say, well, yeah, I'm so grateful that you're humble right now and confessional. But I also have to give voice to my feelings that you hurt me. And the question is, is that piling on? And that's where sometimes we have to think through, is this the moment? How do I broach that subject? Is he going to self-improve? Do I need to say anything? Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? Sarah and I will often say, is it really necessary at this point to say that? Is it really necessary? And there's no formula on this. We just have to be more discerning. And but you both are doing so well. I'm very impressed just with your wisdom and just how God is using both of you. So you need to both be greatly encouraged. May your tribe increase. That's what I say.

Speaker 3:
[65:26] This was so encouraging.

Speaker 4:
[65:28] I think this is my favorite podcast.

Speaker 3:
[65:29] I know me too. I loved it so much. It's my favorite we've ever done together for sure. That was so fun. And like I learned so much. I really do feel like sometimes we're in these moments and you're thinking about the listener and then sometimes you're like, okay, can I just ask something really fast for myself? Everybody else will hear it, but it feels so personal. And I'm so grateful for that. So truly thank you so much for you and Sarah Yall's life that you live and lead the books that you've written. Incredibly helpful for us and our family. And we just couldn't thank you enough. And I can't wait for everybody to listen to this episode.