transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] I'm a paycheck player, as I like to say. I'm good at hitting deadlines, so everything a New York publisher could ask for, but I wasn't really getting super anywhere. I would have one book that would do fine, it would do great, and then it would just taper off. Around 2015, I had been self-publishing some stuff that was under my manuscript bed, because I was still writing faster than what New York wanted. And in 2015, Amazon came out with Kindle Unlimited. And I was like, oh, I want to try that, but I do have a lot of New York books, and I don't want people immediately coming in back and being like, I can't read this one, I have to pay for this one. So I was like, I'm going to make another name.

Speaker 2:
[00:42] That was The Voice of Ruby Dixon. And you are listening to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah MacLean, I read romance novels and I write them. And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And Sarah had this great idea. We have, as you all know, done many Trailblazers, which when we first started doing them many seasons ago, was sort of the idea was, who is it that is like recording romance stories? And we're like, I guess we are. And, you know, many of those were kind of what we'd sort of conceived of as like, you know, authors who built the house, right? Like the people who were like early boots on the ground, kind of early in the romance space, first people to do something interesting, right? A lot of the people that were like doing it first. And, you know, we are in no way saying that we captured all those voices, right? Like there are people we couldn't get to, there are people we haven't thought of, right? Like that doesn't mean that that idea will never come back. But then we started to really think like, OK, but a lot of our listeners maybe didn't read those books like they're interesting. But, you know, who are the modern Trailblazers? This was Sarah's idea, right? The people who we all know and love, but that are also leaving a really big mark on the genre in some way, right? Either an innovation in the kinds of books we're reading, an innovation in the way that we are publishing books, an innovation in the way that we are thinking about tropes or characters, right? Whatever. And so we really then sort of started to make a list of like, well, who are the people we would love to have on and hear about like those same sets of questions, right? Your romance journey, what made you a reader? What are your, you know, what were you trying to do? Did it work at first? And one of the first people on our list was Ruby Dixon. Because for all the reasons, those of you who listened to our Ice Planet Barbarians deep dive, you know that we really do believe that Ice Planet Barbarians left an indelible mark and is currently leaving a mark on the genre. So this was a really fun conversation which you're about to hear. And then of course, as usual with our Trailblazer episodes, we'll come back around and talk at the end about what we took away. So here we go with Ruby. Welcome Ruby Dixon. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. We are so excited to have the creator of Ice Planet Barbarians with us. We are really excited to get into it and learn more about how this all came to be. But in Fated Mates fashion, let's go back and talk about how you came to romance as a reader, as a writer, however you think about that.

Speaker 1:
[03:33] I came to romance. I was always the big reader. So little backstory about little Ruby Dixon. When I was five, I was diagnosed with idiopathic scoliosis. So most children get scoliosis when they are hitting puberty. I got it at age five. And it was severe enough that I had to wear a back brace 23 hours a day. And so my mother was always very worried about me. So I was the kid that would, you know, while your brother's playing peewee, football, wherever, I would sit on the sidelines and I would read books. And I loved reading. So I was a voracious reader, voracious library kid. And I grew up reading. I feel like Anne McCaffery was very formative for me.

Speaker 2:
[04:26] Very unsurprised. I was like, this totally checks out. It was either that or an alien crashed in your backyard and you dug up a tentacle. Could have gone either way.

Speaker 1:
[04:35] I also loved, my mom loved like Silver Age science fiction. So we had like the old fantasy and sci-fi magazines.

Speaker 2:
[04:42] Oh yeah, fun.

Speaker 1:
[04:44] Old Edgar Rice Burroughs books, Andre Norton. And as I think about all those, those were all like very, very prolific writers, like where they were constantly having books out. So maybe that's one thing that influenced me that I didn't realize. And then as I hit around 12 or 13, I was looking for something to read and my mom was like, well, I have Clan of the Cave Bear, which can't read the second book. And I was like, okay, cool. And I read the second book.

Speaker 2:
[05:13] The one that's really sexy? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:15] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[05:15] The first one, I feel like the first one was.

Speaker 1:
[05:17] The first one has some pretty high-opening things. Yes. But I loved it and it left off on a cliffhanger. And I was like, well, screw that. I got to read book too. And so I stuck in the room.

Speaker 2:
[05:32] I'm not going to read book too.

Speaker 1:
[05:33] No worries. What a queen your mom was though. Yes. And I was like, oh, and she caught me reading it. And I was like, oh, well, book three is right next to it. So go ahead and grab it. Yay, mom. From there, it was just like, I visited a cousin who was a, it was an older cousin and she was a big romance reader. And she was like, you know, while you're on vacation, grab any of my books that you want. So I looked for the ones that had like the little zebra heart and the little corner. And if it had that, and there was like a cowboy on the cover pulling somebody's clothes off, I was like, it all goes in the bag. And I can't hold so many books. And so that was like really eye opening to me after reading like all this old school sci-fi fantasy. These were all stories about women and these historical timeframes, because it was all historical. Good Evil, Bertrice Small was writing like the harem fantasy.

Speaker 2:
[06:32] Oh yeah, Sky O'Malley singing my song.

Speaker 1:
[06:34] They were all really big into historical accuracy, except for Julie Garwood. But we'll allow it because she's Julie Garwood.

Speaker 2:
[06:42] Sure. I mean, what's not accurate about Al Cain and his plaid and people throwing jewels in a pile on the ground?

Speaker 1:
[06:52] Plad in 10th century Scotland, right. Yes. Ruby, stop, stop Ruby. I know so much about Scotland right now. I could tell you anything, ask me anything. You know, they play golf, like all learn from romance novels. Yeah. And I loved it. It was like fantasy of a different sport, but it was facing fantasy. And so from that point on, I was just like gone. And so when I started writing, it was never a question of like, oh, are you going to write romance? It's like, of course, there's quite a romance in it. It's not necessarily 100 percent romance. There might be like some other storylines in there, but there's going to be a romance in here because that's like, that's the spice, that's the fun.

Speaker 2:
[07:38] So let's talk about that. So you're in high school, you're reading all of these old school historicals.

Speaker 1:
[07:46] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[07:46] And then at what point does young Ruby think to herself, like, I'm going to try my hand at this?

Speaker 1:
[07:54] Oh, it wasn't till I was post high school, post college, didn't really go to college because I grew up, family did not have money. It was like, if you're going to go to college, you're going to get a job and you're going to pay for it.

Speaker 2:
[08:08] Where did you grow up?

Speaker 1:
[08:10] I grew up in DFW, Texas. My parents both worked retail all their lives, never had money. It was just expected, all my friends were like, we're going to go off to college. I was like, okay, I'm going to get a job at Kmart. Then anybody that's been in that situation, you take a year off and you're like, I'm going to work. Then the next thing you know is like you have a car note, you have credit cards and you're like, oh, I can't just go to college. I'm tired. I went through a couple of different jobs and I ended up getting, I went from retail to a phone pool to an office job. It was a well-paying office job and I was like, oh my God, I'm so lucky to have this job. I hate it with every fiber of my being. It felt like I was trapped because it was very well-paying. I was like, do I want to do this for the rest of my life or what's my plan B? I thought my plan B is either I need to go to college at night and get a degree in something practical.

Speaker 2:
[09:22] Accounting or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[09:24] Accounting was what I was going to do. I was like, maybe it'd be different if I was my own boss. I was like, okay, going to school, all my credits just expired. I would probably need like six, seven years of going to school at night and working full time. I was like, well, maybe I'll just write a novel. And I was like, maybe that'll be a better way to go about it.

Speaker 2:
[09:52] I was going to say, very easy, just no problem.

Speaker 1:
[09:55] Just put that out. Yeah. And I started, I had always kind of written as a teenager. And then I think I saw, I saw a movie, Last of the Mohicans, I saw Last of the Mohicans.

Speaker 2:
[10:06] Stay alive, no matter what occurs.

Speaker 1:
[10:08] I loved like 90% of the movie.

Speaker 2:
[10:10] I will find you. Sorry.

Speaker 1:
[10:11] Let's all just take a moment. Okay. I'm fine. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[10:13] For a hot young.

Speaker 1:
[10:14] The most beautiful movie, the most beautiful movie with beautiful people. And I absolutely hated the ending.

Speaker 2:
[10:21] Of course you did because it's written by a man.

Speaker 1:
[10:24] Like, yes, Alice and Uncas like should have been together at the end, have a parallel romance storyline. Like, come on. And it was just, I was like, I was so mad at the ending. And I was like, well, I could do better than that. And so I was like, I'm going to write something. And I started writing and everybody that starts writing, once you get like 15,000 words in, you realize, oh, this is not easy.

Speaker 2:
[10:51] No, I need a middle.

Speaker 1:
[10:53] Yes, yes. Oh, the initial thrill has died down and now it's work. And it took me like two years to finish that first book. And it was dreadful. And there was like, like if they were they were traveling in this story, because it was a big travelogue, you know, like everybody wants to read in their romance, it's just people constantly wandering.

Speaker 2:
[11:15] Just so much research just in there.

Speaker 1:
[11:17] Yeah. And I was like, if you're going to wander, I really want the reader to feel it. So there's going to be like pages and pages of just endless wandering. So you really get in the moment. And it was awful. It still lives under my bed somewhere. Terrible. But you finish that and you're like, oh, oh, I can write a book. Like that's, that's really cool. And so I think I wrote like three or four, getting progressively faster before I decided to query. And I queried my, my like fourth or fifth book. And I think I got an agent after like a couple of years. And then it took a couple more years to sell. And then I started writing professionally for New York, not enough to quit the job that I hated. It was, it was income and it was something that I enjoyed doing. And then-

Speaker 2:
[12:15] And when would this have been like in time? Like 20?

Speaker 1:
[12:18] I would say-

Speaker 2:
[12:19] Tens, like what, like earlier?

Speaker 1:
[12:22] 2006, I think is when I got my first agent. And so my first book came out like in 2009 or 2010. And that was several names ago. And like anybody that's been in New York has been like, okay, this book didn't land. Let's try another name. And Ruby is actually my fourth name.

Speaker 2:
[12:46] Are you able to talk about like the the Mrs, the kind of which which were the books? What were you writing that just, you know, didn't work? No, because we have Janeanne Krentz, for example, on the on the show. And she talks a lot about how like she's been through so many pen names because there are ebbs, there are flows, and then, you know, a genre dies or like a book doesn't land, and then suddenly it's a new, you have to try again, you have to keep persevering.

Speaker 1:
[13:14] Right. The first one that came out was just did not land. I don't know if it was like, it was urban fantasy when urban fantasy is kind of blowing up, but it was very romantic urban fantasy.

Speaker 2:
[13:26] Like mid to late aughts.

Speaker 1:
[13:29] Yes, yes. And it had like a sexy guy cover, you know, even though it was a female focused urban fantasy, I guess we'd call it romancy at this point. And the publisher was like gung-ho behind it, printed 100,000 copies and like 95,000 came back. So that, it was over before it started. That was a big eye opener. And then they were like...

Speaker 2:
[14:03] Now listen, that's not your fault. That's a publisher who printed too many books.

Speaker 1:
[14:08] Right. Well, and they had buy-ins. The thing with the publisher is, is they go out and they're like, and I think this is what a lot of indies don't understand is like, why do publishers print so many books? Because they go to Walmart, they're like, we're excited about this book. Look how pretty it is. How many do you want? And Walmart's like, we love it. Let's have 20,000. And they go to Target. Target's like, we love it. Let's get 20,000. And so you have all these stores that are like, we all want so many of this book. And then you put it out and like people just look at and they're like, nope, and just keep on going. So it's not the publisher's fault for printing that many. It's somebody upstairs was like, oh, this is going to sell. And you get it to the store front and it's like, oh, no, it doesn't sell. And I don't know a lot of reasons behind it. Nobody knows.

Speaker 2:
[14:57] I mean, it's a mystery.

Speaker 1:
[15:00] So I don't really blame anyone other than like, it was my first published book. Looking back, it was kind of a weird baby. So maybe it was a little too weird. And that's a thing with me, recurringly. It's like, maybe I'm a little too weird every now and then, which whatever.

Speaker 2:
[15:16] Okay, so Urban Fantasy is a no.

Speaker 1:
[15:20] So then it was, I went to more Paranormal Romance. Different name, Paranormal Romance. First one did really, really well. Had like five or six printings right off the gate. And then it got caught up in, when Simon & Schuster was feuding with Barnes & Noble. And my book had came out, my second book in the series was supposed to like really blow up. And it got, it never left the storeroom.

Speaker 2:
[15:47] Oh no.

Speaker 1:
[15:48] So I want to say all of those came back.

Speaker 2:
[15:53] And when you say, I just want to probe a little and again.

Speaker 1:
[15:57] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[15:58] When you say Paranormal, are we talking creatures? Like shifters.

Speaker 1:
[16:04] Shifters.

Speaker 2:
[16:04] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[16:04] Yes. Shifters and vampires and things like that. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[16:08] I'm trying to piece out like what's the DNA here of a Ruby Dixon book.

Speaker 1:
[16:13] And that I do think would have done better, but it was timing. It was timing. Right book, wrong time. So I still look fondly at those like, yeah, I was doing, I was doing something right there. And then I went to a different publisher and they were like, well, you're writing Paranormal for them. Can you write same vein, like contemporary-ish sorts of things? And I was like, yeah, I can do that. I'll do whatever you want, pay me.

Speaker 2:
[16:42] How many, I'm sorry, at this point, how many books have you written and published?

Speaker 1:
[16:46] At that point, probably seven or eight.

Speaker 2:
[16:49] So they know that you can write, they know that like, and you can produce. And how many years are we talking about at this point?

Speaker 1:
[16:57] Probably like three or four. Like I'm pretty fast. Like whenever I would get a contract with somebody, I'm like, you know, I've got extra books in me. Like just put the label couch, you know, I will perform.

Speaker 2:
[17:12] This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Little Brown & Company, publishers of Elin Hilderbrand's 30 novels, including this one, The Academy, with her daughter, Shelby Cunningham. So it's move-in day at Tiffin Academy. And amidst all of the happy chaos of friends reuniting, there is a sort of sense of real satisfaction among this campus of New England's popular boarding school. It has jumped 17 points on the best boarding schools in the country list and is now number two. So everybody's kind of like patting themselves on the back because there's absolutely no reason for this to be number two. At least nobody ever thought it would be. The dorms need to be renovated. Everybody's a little more social than they are academic. But people are feeling pretty great. Problem is there's a brand new blind item app that everybody loves and immediately after the announcement is made that Tiffin is number two on the list, a bunch of blind items start to come out that are pretty scandalous. Everybody is a mark. There are international influencers, queen bees, young history teachers, transfer students with secrets, and of course the admissions director who's got a little bit of a weird methodology for who she likes to let in to Tiffin. Everyone has something to hide. All of these secrets are being revealed. This is a book that if you liked prep or gossip girl, this is definitely going to be for you. This is like the clique. It really feels like Elin Hilderbrand knows how to write a really buzzy take on something. This is going to be a real take on boarding school. And I'm excited. Yeah. So the Academy is new in paperback this month, and you can read it to get ready for the return to Tiffin Academy this September with the thoroughbred. So if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book in print, ebook, or audio. Thanks to Little Brown & Company for sponsoring this week's episode. This is right around the time historically, like that end of the aughts, beginning of the tens, when publishers were trying to do like monthly releases. So they would say like, we want to buy this series, we want you to write all three, and then we'll publish them June, July, August.

Speaker 1:
[19:45] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[19:45] Were you in this mix?

Speaker 1:
[19:48] My first series, so they did book one and book two, and they both printed like, like 100 grand and 120 grand of book two, which I was like, why would you do that? And they both like flopped spectacularly, then after that it was just like, no. So that was the only back to back that I really had. But when I went to the other publisher, it was more like, okay, we're going to do contemporary. And I did several different types of contemporary romance for them. And basically what they were asking for, because I had a really good relationship with my editor, Cindy Hwang. Love her, have worked with her for a really long time. And she's always been very supportive. And then I guess I'd been doing that for a while. And I was kind of like, okay, you know, this is, I'm a paycheck player, as I like to say. Who isn't Ruby? It was like Jerry Maguire when they said that. You know, you show up for your check and that's all it is. And that was fine. Because it beat working in an office.

Speaker 2:
[21:01] And you were fast and you had the ideas.

Speaker 1:
[21:05] I'm good at hitting deadlines. So everything like a New York publisher could ask for, I wasn't really getting super anywhere. I would have one book that would do fine. It would do great. And then like, it would just kind of taper off. So, and my husband is convinced that it's because they were throttling the weirdness.

Speaker 2:
[21:26] Weird. I mean, it seems like you might be right. Keep going.

Speaker 1:
[21:30] Right, right. So around 2015, I had been self publishing like some stuff that was under my main, my bed, my manuscript bed for a while because I was still writing faster than what New York wanted. And in 2015, Amazon came out with Kindle Unlimited and I was like, Oh, I want to try that. But I do have a lot of New York books and I don't want people immediately coming in back and being like, I can't read this one. I have to pay for this one. So I was like, I'm going to make another name. Because I just love names and I was like...

Speaker 2:
[22:08] That's so smart. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of people who were doing it, but you are probably the first person we've had on who admits that this is how it works.

Speaker 1:
[22:17] I was like, yeah, I'm going to do this. If you see Ruby Dixon, you know it's in Kindle Unlimited. And I have a couple of author buddies and we were like, let's all make names and we'll cross promote each other. And so we came up with like The Club, which is the most generic name ever, but we're going to write for a bunch of writers.

Speaker 2:
[22:34] It's especially funny, right? The Club, like you're writers, you could have come up with something amazing.

Speaker 1:
[22:40] Right, right. No, it was just the club. And it was me and a friend that was going to go by Ella Goode and Kati Wilde. And eventually we pulled in a friend, Alexa Riley. And so we were like, we're each going to put out a novella every week. And then, Oh my God, so fast. Kati would put out one, Ella would put out one, I would put out one. And then we would just cycle back. That was very ambitious.

Speaker 2:
[23:05] I mean, but it's not happened that way for long. But Alexa Riley, I mean, they write really fast. They do. And then you got two brains in there. Yeah. You also write pretty fast. And I mean, I feel like all of you do, but a weekly.

Speaker 1:
[23:21] Yes. Well, it was like, you know, it's only 10 to 15,000 words. Like you're popping up once a month.

Speaker 2:
[23:26] And they're super sexy. That's the deal. You're like, we're going to do high heat.

Speaker 1:
[23:31] Easy.

Speaker 2:
[23:32] Everyone at home is not really getting the full Ruby Dickinson experience because there's a lot of like eye rolling and like air quotes. And I just want you to know it's all delightful.

Speaker 1:
[23:40] I hand talk her for sure.

Speaker 2:
[23:41] Me too.

Speaker 1:
[23:41] No, I love it.

Speaker 2:
[23:42] I love it. Are you, so were the books at, in traditional also high heat?

Speaker 1:
[23:51] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[23:51] Did you, so you were like, I like writing these kind of super sexy things.

Speaker 1:
[23:55] I was like, and for the time challenge, I love a challenge too. I'm like, let's see if I can throw anal in this one. And she will see anything. I'm like, no, the editor is like, she is, I love her to death. She is the horniest person I've ever met. So nothing is too spicy for her.

Speaker 2:
[24:15] Put it on her tombstone.

Speaker 1:
[24:16] That's right. Your lies, Cindy. Man, she's horny. So, and I love you, Cindy, if you hear this. But she knows, she knows. So I started writing as Ruby and I was writing motorcycle club stuff. Cause we were like, what's popular right now? Let's get that money. It was motorcycle club. Do I know anything about motorcycle clubs?

Speaker 2:
[24:43] No one knows anything about anything in romance.

Speaker 1:
[24:46] I've seen a couple of gifts of Sons of Anarchy, you know.

Speaker 2:
[24:50] You were driving down the freeway and a motorcycle would buy you. It's fine.

Speaker 1:
[24:54] I live in Texas. I'm sure it's all, you know, completely above board. It's totally not racist in the slightest, you know. And I wrote like a couple of those. And my whole motorcycle club thing was that they were going to be two guys, one girl, male, female, male. So every guy had a partner that he would ride with and then he would ride with.

Speaker 2:
[25:20] I was going to say the swords cross.

Speaker 1:
[25:22] Yes. People got really mad about that.

Speaker 2:
[25:26] When this is 2015, this is right when it starts to get OK that swords cross.

Speaker 1:
[25:31] Yes. And I was like, do you think they're just holding hands?

Speaker 2:
[25:35] That they're not touching. No touching.

Speaker 1:
[25:37] Right. Right. So I did hit a wall with those. I was like, you can only do so much, you know, with this very specific setup that I have created for myself. And between that and like the New York books, where I was like, yeah, OK, I'll write another like feel good holiday book.

Speaker 2:
[25:58] Don't get those confused. Right. Right.

Speaker 1:
[26:02] And it was just, I don't know if that was when Trump was first getting into office. Maybe that might have had something to do with it. And I was like, I just I was feeling tapped. And so I was like, you know, I love writing, but I'm not loving it right now. I need to do something to make myself love it again. And this is the longest origin story, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[26:28] I love every second of it. Just keep going. This is going to be a seven-hour episode, and it's going to be fine. We're going to build in bathroom breaks, reading breaks, maybe even. Intermission. Everybody stop, go read something, come back.

Speaker 1:
[26:39] It's fine. Keep going. And I was like, okay, what do I want to write? And I had been reading, this was back before science fiction romance really started to hit. And I read a couple of authors that were, okay, a little preface. There was a little bit of science fiction romance back in the day through Ellora's Cave.

Speaker 2:
[27:06] Of course.

Speaker 1:
[27:08] We all remember them. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[27:10] Well, we don't all, but- Okay, we all do. Oh, geez. We, the three of us. Oh my God. Remember those Jaid Black books? Like what? Where were we reading them? Wait, the ones- Sorry.

Speaker 1:
[27:22] Like Evangeline Anderson had one-

Speaker 2:
[27:25] Who was the one who did all the shifters were made in a lab?

Speaker 1:
[27:29] Laurann Donner. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[27:31] Laurann Donner. You love those. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[27:34] So there was some science fiction romance, like Evangeline Anderson, Jaid Black. Like, Laurann Donner had a Cyborg series. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[27:48] She had so many books.

Speaker 1:
[27:50] And I had read like everything. And I was like, there's not enough of this.

Speaker 2:
[27:55] Because for listeners who don't remember the like deep magic, the Ellora's Cave, when Kindles came out, when like e-readers came out and those of us who were high volume readers bought Kindles, there was a limit to what you could put on them. I mean, now you're like swimming in books. But back then you're like, I don't know what's out there. But like so Ellora's Cave was there. And those were books that were, those writers were prolific. And when they wrote almost as fast as we read.

Speaker 1:
[28:26] And so, you know, Ellora's Cave got prized too because it was like, oh, you want this 40 page novella, 699, please.

Speaker 2:
[28:36] And I was like, well, okay, if I must, my divesting my entire paycheck into.

Speaker 1:
[28:42] Yes, but they were making bank. But I read everything. I had read everything. And like, I would like go to the science fiction romance category and scroll by new releases and look for anything there. And there would be something that would trickle in. And every once in a while it would be okay, but it wouldn't scratch the itch. And I read R. Lee Smith. And R. Lee Smith is an Indie faceless entity. It's R, the initial, Lee, L-E-E-N-S. And they, I don't know if it's this year or they, I mean, they try and do they, they wrote very epically long fanfic-y feeling science fiction slash dark fantasy books. Okay. And they were grim.

Speaker 2:
[29:33] For Ellora's Cave.

Speaker 1:
[29:34] And gritty. I'm sorry?

Speaker 2:
[29:36] For Ellora's Cave or on the-

Speaker 1:
[29:37] No, no, no, not Ellora's Cave, past Ellora's Cave, just self-published.

Speaker 2:
[29:41] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[29:41] And they like broke my brain. I was like, this is the weirdest stuff and I loved it.

Speaker 2:
[29:47] And was it aliens? Was it- Yes.

Speaker 1:
[29:50] There were aliens, there were bug men, there were humans.

Speaker 2:
[29:55] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[29:56] Like just very cracky feeling. And like this was somebody that had never been told, you can't write that. And I loved that. They were all very, very dark, millions of trigger warnings. If anybody goes to pick them up, millions of trigger warnings. And I absolutely- Were they sexy? Yes, some of them.

Speaker 2:
[30:16] But not, they could have been more sexy. Sensing from your face. Right.

Speaker 1:
[30:21] And like, I wouldn't tell anybody to go in reading for Spice. I would say go in reading for the bonkers. And I was like, oh, you know, nobody told this person they can't write this. And I love that about them. And so I was like, I'm going to go back and I'm just going to write something that is purely spun out of whatever I have in this old file over here. And because I had read a lot of science fiction and fantasy and historical growing up, I was like, I'm going to pull back on all those and pull in things that I enjoy and that I would love to see in one of these science fiction romances. And I think that's kind of where Ice Planet Barbarians came from. I had an idea and I was like, I'm going to do the characters that live on this planet are going to have a symbiote where they have to have this parasite that helps them live here. And initially it was going to be like a superhero parasite and it's going to make them like fly and be super strong. And then I was like, nah, that's kind of stupid. So it changes as you start writing. And you realize, oh, I can do this and I can do this. And I also really enjoyed serials at the time. And so I was like, OK, I'm going to try and write this as a serial.

Speaker 2:
[31:44] Pause because now you've just like activated an old memory of mine because I had forgotten about serials.

Speaker 1:
[31:51] It came out in six parts.

Speaker 2:
[31:53] Yeah. Yeah. That was happening at that time. Remember that one Crestley book that came out in threes or whatever? Oh, yeah. The professional or whatever the first one was.

Speaker 1:
[32:03] I think for a hot minute, people really liked serials because I knew people that had like.

Speaker 2:
[32:10] But they were shorter.

Speaker 1:
[32:11] They were like 2015, 2016. Was this around the time of what was it?

Speaker 2:
[32:14] Radish, right? Like, wasn't there like a.

Speaker 1:
[32:17] No, I think Radish was after that. I think the reason why there were so many serials that were coming out was because it was all about money. Kindle Unlimited was like. Kindle Unlimited 1.0. And this is like this is how the sausage is made. I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[32:32] This is so useful. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:36] And what it was, was that if you opened a book on Kindle Unlimited and you got to 10%, you were paid for the full price of the read. And so when you would, people would write shorter books and then just release a lot of them because you would get paid the full price.

Speaker 2:
[32:53] And then there was also the bonus, the bonuses were happening to them.

Speaker 1:
[32:59] Yes. Well, that happened afterwards. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:
[33:03] Explain to people about the bonuses.

Speaker 1:
[33:05] Right. Kindle 1.0, Kindle Unlimited 1.0, people would then create like a serial, quote serial, that would be like 10 pages long. So you open the book, you get 10%. And they're like, read on for part two. And so Amazon was like, we can't do this anymore. So they did Amazon, I guess they did Kindle 2.0, where you got paid by pages read. And that's when people started doing the stuffing.

Speaker 2:
[33:33] Yes. They would ask for stories. That too, there was a whole like scandal around stuffing. But then, but in Kindle 1.0, if you got a bonus, if you were the top read author in a category, right? Every month.

Speaker 1:
[33:48] They do. They have done bonuses for a while. They change how the bonuses were. They did do that too, I think.

Speaker 2:
[33:54] And that was the other reason why serials work, because people would download all of the books. And that would make you more likely to be in the top 10 authors of the month or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[34:05] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[34:05] And I remember friends telling me, and I don't know if you can confirm this, but I remember somebody telling me that she was number one in one of those early categories one month, and she got a $75,000 bonus.

Speaker 1:
[34:19] Okay. I never got that.

Speaker 2:
[34:22] You're like, excuse me. I mean, but this was early days. Sure.

Speaker 1:
[34:26] And they were throwing money at things to make them happen. And you know, I will say a lot of things about Amazon. I have never had issues with like their system, and everybody I've ever worked with at Amazon has been super professional. So like it is a corporation. You have to keep that in mind, like 100% of the time, they're going to do what's best for their corporation, not what's best for you, Peggy Sue, the author.

Speaker 2:
[34:52] This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Lucy Score, author of Mistakes Were Made, the second in her Story Lake series. So our heroine here, Zoe Moody, is very down on her luck. She is broke. She has been kicked out of her New York City apartment building. She is really having a difficult time as a literary agent, and she is in Story Lake under duress. She's there because she no longer has an apartment in York City and her one client, the only one who has been loyal to her, her best friend, Hazel, needs to finish her romance novel and hopefully, they're going to turn this romance novel into pure gold for both of them. Then Zoe can get the heck out of Story Lake in this tiny small town, which she cannot stand and head back to New York. The problem is, in walks, handsome like sexy lawyer, Gage Bishop, who is smart and serious and very ready to settle down. Gage is looking for a wife and he is looking for children, and he is looking for the next stage of his life. Zoe is the most beautiful woman he has ever met, but it is clear that they are completely wrong for each other. She is allergic to commitment, he is looking for a wife, she is afraid of animals, he lives in a literal barn, but when he has one night where he is rocked by a devastating family secret, he turns to the only woman he's wanted for a long time, and they have one night to forget everything. But as you know, Jen, one night... No, one night's never enough, Sarah. So if you would like to find out what happens, then you should check out Mistakes Were Made. It is available in print, audiobook and ebook, and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. Thanks to Lucy Score for sponsoring this week's episode. So at this point, you're still writing traditional for New York. You are sort of burned out. You want to write something that's like just pure id, right? Like open a vein and Ruby Dixon comes out. Yes. So you have this idea, and are you instantly like this is an indie idea? Like this is Ruby Dixon.

Speaker 1:
[37:13] Yes. I was like, I called up Kati and I was like, Kati, I was like, I need you to make me a cover. Here is the stock photo I want to use. I need you to make this man blue. And I was like, and I'm going to call it Ice Planet Barbarians. And because that is the most on the nose, like pulp fiction sort of title I can think of. I was like, this will weed out the science fiction bros.

Speaker 2:
[37:42] Yeah. Yeah, right.

Speaker 1:
[37:44] Sure. Good point. Everything I did was like, these men are not my target audience. I need to make sure.

Speaker 2:
[37:50] To repel them.

Speaker 1:
[37:51] Yes. So when I put it up, I put like Ice Planet Barbarians, I put a sci-fi romance novella, because sci-fi is a term that SFF readers hate.

Speaker 2:
[38:05] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[38:06] Because it's considered the wrong sort of shorthand. They like SFF, or they like science fiction, or they like speculative fiction, but they didn't like sci-fi. And I was like, sci-fi romance.

Speaker 2:
[38:20] Yeah, you're like, let me just, yeah, like, nice.

Speaker 1:
[38:23] Let me throw in all the things that say, this is not for you. I was like, this will either fail spectacularly, or somebody else is going to be like, yes, finally, somebody's writing this weird alien stuff that, you know, that I've been looking for. And the first one did, the first part of the serial did okay. And then the next one got a little bit more. And the next one got a little bit more. By the time I hit the sixth one, which was the finale, it was hitting the top 100 in Kindle.

Speaker 2:
[38:53] I'm sorry, can you just, so you're saying the first Ice Planet Barbarians, not what we think of as Ice Planet Barbarians, the book, was six parts.

Speaker 1:
[39:03] Yes, it was six parts.

Speaker 2:
[39:04] Okay. I did not read it in parts. The first time I read it, it was a whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[39:09] Yeah, and I did book two in parts also. And then by the time I got to book three, I had been getting enough emails from people that were like, please skip doing the parts thing.

Speaker 2:
[39:20] Let me pay you six dollars. Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[39:24] And they were like, well, I want to read it all now. And I was like, okay. So book three onward was just like a full book.

Speaker 2:
[39:31] And now, can we talk about the writing? I'm sorry, I keep cutting you off, but can we talk about the writing of serials? Were you writing and publishing like fixed style, or were you like writing the whole thing and then separating it out? What was the process there?

Speaker 1:
[39:48] I wrote like each section, and I was like, oh, that's a fun little cliffhanger, and then just publish. Yeah, yes.

Speaker 2:
[39:55] Amazing.

Speaker 1:
[39:56] Yeah, and I do love serials. I read a lot of comic books growing up too. So I think if you read a lot of serial type fiction, you start to learn where the beats are, that you can kind of like pause it here, or where this would be a good stop to get people to come back again. And I still enjoy serial fiction. Like I still do a serial like on my website or whatever, every now and then, because I enjoy that day to day, let's check in and see what the next chapter is. Fanfic is real big on serial sorts of things. Like you might read a complete fanfic, and you're like, why does this drag on for so many chapters? It's because they're feeding people day to day or week to week, little bits of this story.

Speaker 2:
[40:40] So do you, we just did a deep dive of Ice Planet Barbarians on the podcast, and we read obviously the whole book. Where was the first cut? Do you remember?

Speaker 1:
[40:52] The first cut, I want to say it was when she runs into Vectal.

Speaker 2:
[40:59] So we get all the way to him, and then we cut.

Speaker 1:
[41:02] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[41:05] You know, it's funny, I was just looking back, I started in romance reviewing for the Book Queen, and it was in September of 2017. I reviewed another sci-fi romance that I didn't really enjoy that much. And then at the end, I was like, if you're looking for something, you should try this Ice Planet Barbarians series. And I actually sort of explain it a little bit, like, here's what it's about. And it seems wild to me to think that there was ever a time where I couldn't say Ice Planet Barbarians and everyone already knew what it was, right? That I would be like, hey, listen, if you're looking for something more like this, you might try and let me tell you what it is. And that's, but it was, right? I mean, September 2017, people knew it, but it wasn't like what happened after TikTok.

Speaker 1:
[41:56] It was considered super weird, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[41:59] Well, I feel like, was it TikTok though? Because I feel like it blew up before TikTok.

Speaker 1:
[42:04] It was very healthy before TikTok.

Speaker 2:
[42:07] At what point do you wake up in the morning and go, holy shit, I have done a thing here?

Speaker 1:
[42:14] I still don't get that.

Speaker 2:
[42:15] No, I know, but-

Speaker 1:
[42:17] I never do.

Speaker 2:
[42:19] Really? So there was never a moment where you were like, oh my God, people are really into this. This is-

Speaker 1:
[42:26] No, I guess because I grew up reading- Cressley Cole is a huge inspiration for me, and she had this big, long series of like, here are these individual stories. They're all bat shit crazy and fun. Have a good time. Come back for the next one. And so I really appreciate that model. And so to me, that's just what I'm doing. Here's a crazy story set in this world. Come back for the next one, you know? And like, to me, it's never felt like it was a thing. Like, it was good in its little segment of the universe.

Speaker 2:
[43:06] This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Lumi Gummies. Consistent, mellow and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de-stressor, a mid-day mood boost or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that's right for you. So, we have been experiencing some very unsettled weather here in Chicago and I have been having a really hard time sleeping, right? Like, just like there's thunder and lightning and, you know, just like the temperature is all over the place. And I have just really found that this has been a week where I have been really leaning into Lumi Gummies to help me sleep. You know, so if I go to sleep and fall asleep and it's great, then fine. If I wake up in the middle of the night, it's just like a way that I can like just like pop a gummy and then just like kind of fall back asleep and then like still wake up in the morning and feel like kind of refreshed as opposed to feeling like, you know, like, oh my God, I, you know, just overwhelmed by some other kind of medicine. So it's just been a really great time for me to just like remember how helpful that can be when I have that, like I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm wide awake. And in this case, it's the weather. Sometimes it's just like anxiety or worrying about the world, but I do find that this has been really a great time for me to lean back into the gummy. Nice. Lumi Gummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com. That's L-U-M-I gummies.com and use code Fated Mates for 30% off your order. Again, that's L-U-M-I gummies.com code Fated Mates. lumigummies.com code Fated Mates. Thanks to Lumi Gummies for sponsoring this week's episode. In my mind, it feels like Ice Planet Barbarians was the first of the new wave of monster romance. It inspired a huge, a wide swath of authors to move toward monsters. I separate that and we've talked about this on the podcast, but tell us if this is wrong because that's part of why you're here. Is the sort of, there is Paranormal that came before, and then there is Monster, which is, which then came sort of on the backs of Ice Planet Barbarians, it felt, and the heroes feel really different in them.

Speaker 1:
[45:30] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[45:30] Right, like you talked about Cressley, we are first, the first season of our podcast was a deep dive of, of Immortals After Dark. Lothair would never be an Ice Planet Barbarian.

Speaker 1:
[45:41] No, most monster romance heroes are Golden Retrievers, Slats, Simps.

Speaker 2:
[45:46] So can you talk about that? Were you always writing Golden Retrievers?

Speaker 1:
[45:51] No, but I was like, I kind of wanted him to be like, oh, he's this really terrifying, monster-y looking, like seven feet tall, horn, glowing eyes, like he's an alien, this should be terrifying. And I wanted him to just be like, just the nicest, like you're a gentleman, you know.

Speaker 2:
[46:14] When we say gentleman, he does eat her out, like the second he meets her, Ruby.

Speaker 1:
[46:18] Yes, and like that is like the litmus step.

Speaker 2:
[46:22] Thanks for your service.

Speaker 1:
[46:23] Right. And that is the part that everybody struggles with. They're like, oh, this is not consent. Well, she wakes up and she's pretty consented.

Speaker 2:
[46:30] She's very fine.

Speaker 1:
[46:31] You know what? This is fine.

Speaker 2:
[46:32] They're wrong. We didn't struggle with that at all.

Speaker 1:
[46:36] I wrote it from her point of view, too, because I wanted you to know, oh no, she's fine with this. And he makes it very clear, if she pushes him with her foot, oh, he backs off. He makes it very clear that whatever, you're running the show here. So I tried to convey that, but I did get a lot of flak from that. I was like, should I take this out? Should I leave it in? I ended up leaving it in. And anytime you think like that as a writer now, I'm like, if you wonder about it, leave it in because it's going to be the part that most people remember.

Speaker 2:
[47:11] That's a great piece of advice. So it was, okay, so it was actually, you're right, like pretty popular, right, up into the TikTok time, right? Like our friend...

Speaker 1:
[47:20] In circles.

Speaker 2:
[47:21] In circles, right? Our friend Dani Lacey had a whole Ice Planet Pod, right, where she was doing a read along with every episode. And that predated TikTok. That predated TikTok. I mean, I felt like there was a kind of a wave of Ice Planet Barbarians readers, but then we have to admit that TikTok must have put high-octane fuel in the tank.

Speaker 1:
[47:40] A whole other level. Yes. And I had no idea what was happening.

Speaker 2:
[47:45] Until you open up your Kindle Unlimited, like, royalty statement or whatever one month, and we're like, wait.

Speaker 1:
[47:51] I'm not on TikTok because every once in a while, social media just becomes too much. And I was like, every once in a while, every minute.

Speaker 2:
[47:58] I know.

Speaker 1:
[47:59] And I had, like, gotten off of Twitter because Twitter was just toxic. And like, I'm just going to look at cat videos on Instagram. Like, you know, live my life. And I would get, I would, I would check my book ranks every once in a while. And I'm like, yeah, okay. You know, it's, it's where it normally is, whatever. And then like Ice Planet Barbarians jumped into like the top 500 on Amazon after years and years of being, years. And I was like, oh, how neat. And I was like, maybe it got mentioned somewhere. And then it jumped to like 200 and then it jumped to like 100. And then it jumped to like number 10 in the store. And all the other little books were following behind it. And I was like, what's, what's going on? I don't understand. My mom, my 70 something year old mom was like, honey, I think it's on the TikTok. What are you talking about? And she's like, I saw somebody mention that it was on TikTok. And so we both downloaded TikTok at lunch and we're looking for it. And I found a video and it was by a reader. And I think she writes now a Charlotte Swan. She writes Monster Romance, Real Super Spicy. Oh, and Charlotte Swan. And she was like, you know, during the pandemic, she's like, Ice Planet Barbarians was my cozy place. This is just what I would go to, to escape. And I was like, oh, that's really sweet. And then I saw a bunch of other videos where they were like stitching her and they were like, oh my God, this was amazing. And it just kind of turned into this thing. And the book one hit number one in the store. And like at one point there was like 12 Ice Planet Barbarians in the top 100. And I was getting all kinds of bookstores like in my inbox. And they were like, we can't order your books because they're Amazon pod. And I was like, uh-oh. So and I saw lots of videos where like bookstores were like people were coming in asking for the Blue Barbarian books and they were like, no, no, we don't have them. So my agent reached out. She was like, hey, I just saw, you know, a TikTok about Ice Planet Barbarians. She's like, do we want to reach out to your publisher and see if they want to do something?

Speaker 2:
[50:13] This is Holly Root.

Speaker 1:
[50:15] Yes, Holly Root. Love her. The most like zen sweetest person. I've been with her for like 15 years now.

Speaker 2:
[50:25] So she was with you from the beginning?

Speaker 1:
[50:28] Yes. She was actually like the third agent I had. She's my third agent too. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[50:34] Third time's the charm, ladies. Everybody lands at Holly.

Speaker 1:
[50:39] Yes. She's just delightful and she knows the industry. She knows romance. She was like, why don't we go to your publisher and see if maybe they're interested in doing something with Ice Planet?

Speaker 2:
[50:52] So does your publisher know you are Ruby Dixon?

Speaker 1:
[50:56] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[50:56] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[50:58] Like I said, I've had a really good relationship with Cindy for a long time. But it was more like, oh, that's neat.

Speaker 2:
[51:04] Yeah, because when you started, right, these were crazy.

Speaker 1:
[51:09] Right. They were like, that's nice. That's a Kindle Unlimited sort of thing.

Speaker 2:
[51:14] Yeah. How the tide has turned.

Speaker 1:
[51:18] Yeah. I was getting all kinds of crazy industry people in my inbox. So we went to Cindy and I was like, Cindy, I have like 12 books in the top 100. I was like, you better back up that money truck. Paycheck player, right? Right. Right.

Speaker 2:
[51:40] Hey, perv, back up that money truck. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:43] And it was, well, it was also like, this was my thing.

Speaker 2:
[51:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:47] Say no.

Speaker 2:
[51:48] This is your baby.

Speaker 1:
[51:50] I'm still fine. I don't need New York because I'm doing just fine on Kindle. And I have been doing just fine on Kindle for like five years.

Speaker 2:
[52:00] And like, let's just take a pause here because I don't need New York.

Speaker 1:
[52:04] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[52:05] This is a transformational time in publishing. I mean, I just want to say, everybody knows that we brought Ruby on because we're doing this new series of like modern trailblazers. And I feel like you just said the thing that really does set you is a hallmark of your time of publishing.

Speaker 1:
[52:25] Right. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[52:26] I don't need New York is a thing no one said before, right around that time. I mean, a handful of people, right? Like Bella Andre and Barbara Freevy. Like people who had written a backlist and were very successful in their own way. But like, this is a big thing, right? It's become huge. You know, Penguin Random House is coming hard for these books, like wants these books. And you're able to say like, make it worth my while. And that is the dream.

Speaker 1:
[52:58] Yes. And so they came back and they were like, okay, we do want these books. We think we can get them in stores and solve this problem. However, we can't back up the money truck. Because like, it would be such a commitment. And I think they were afraid at that point, because anybody that's been in self-publishing for a long time knows that around 2011, 2012, publishers bought up a lot of self-published stuff. And then the wealth ran dry. So then they stopped again. And when Ice Planet Barbarians hit, they were like, okay, let's try this new crazy thing, where you keep your ebook rights and we do the print rights. Do you want to roll the dice with us on that? And I was like, you know what, let's do that. Because I would look at my print books, and they would be like one one hundredth of what the Kindle Unlimited or the ebooks are selling. So I was like, you know what, you can have print rights. And that ended up working out really well.

Speaker 2:
[54:03] With Katie's covers.

Speaker 1:
[54:05] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[54:07] No, the early ones were just using those early covers. The original print book had those different covers. That was like the big deal.

Speaker 1:
[54:16] They were the illustrated covers. I was like, I want illustrated covers.

Speaker 2:
[54:20] Right. Those beautiful illustrated covers. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[54:25] And people were like, oh, that's YA.

Speaker 2:
[54:27] So it was the POD that had those original covers.

Speaker 1:
[54:30] POD has the very lurid.

Speaker 2:
[54:32] I think that's the copy I have just FYI. That's where I am in the Ice Planet Barbarians world.

Speaker 1:
[54:38] And it's so funny too because I was like, I want an upmarket illustrated cover to pull in a new audience. If you've seen the Kindle Unlimited cover, you've already decided if it's for you or not. So I want to pull in new people. And so the initial cover just had Georgie on the cover. And Walmart came back and they're like, where are her boobs? We need some boobs to show that it's romance. And I was like, okay. So we added some cleavage. And then I think Target came back and they're like, where's the hero? We need a hero on this cover. So that's why you have like the hero photo.

Speaker 2:
[55:19] And he's beautiful. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[55:20] Yes. And then they were like, real like Fabio style, that hero. Yes. So everybody that's like, why did this author pick this cover? It's a committee every time. You could be like, I have the most beautiful cover on earth. And Walmart could be like, we think she needs a raccoon on the cover. Because raccoons are really hot. And then get a raccoon because Walmart will buy those books.

Speaker 2:
[55:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[55:44] So it's all very committee. And so we had Ice Planet Barbarians and we just put the print book out. And it didn't do crazy well at the beginning. Like, cause everybody had already bought it.

Speaker 2:
[55:58] Right, read it, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[55:59] Right. And, but it just kept selling and it just kept selling. And like I, the next one came out and the next one came out. And they have all sold consistently. It didn't hit the New York Times. It didn't hit USA Today. I don't think it hit USA Today until like number six. And I think it hit like number 150 out of 150. But I was like, yay, USA Today. But they just consistently sell. And I think Ice Planet Barbarians, the Penguin version is now like in the 23rd printing.

Speaker 2:
[56:33] That's amazing.

Speaker 1:
[56:35] Yeah. And I've been doing events and 90% of the time, if you do an event at a bookstore, these people only read at bookstores. They go to the bookstore and use it like shopping. They look at what's on the shelves. They don't go on Amazon and see what's coming out. They just read what is at the bookstore. And I thought that was fascinating. It's this whole niche of the market that you cannot get as a Kindle Unlimited author. And I was like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to grow sideways, instead of just focusing all in on Kindle Unlimited.

Speaker 2:
[57:16] I mean, listen, we were all just bookstore only readers until we weren't. I mean, that's how I mean, sometimes I'm like, how did I find people in the 90s? You went to the store. You just went to the store and you shopped until you found something you wanted to read, right?

Speaker 1:
[57:34] Yes, so yeah, I mean, it's been really great and it's fascinating to me because I will meet people and they're like, I can't wait for Book 11. When's Book 11 coming out? I want to be like, Book 11 has been out since 2017. Go read it on your Kindle. But they read the paper.

Speaker 2:
[57:51] Yeah, they're just going methodically in their format.

Speaker 1:
[57:54] They share it with family. They borrow it from the library. And I'm like, that's fantastic.

Speaker 2:
[57:58] So where are we at now with parallel publishing? So how many books are there in the series that you have written in E?

Speaker 1:
[58:09] Okay. In the initial series, I want to say there was 21, but three of them were novellas that I would just put out to bridge the gap. So those don't necessarily count. So maybe there's going to be 17 or something like that.

Speaker 2:
[58:22] And then there are the spinoffs.

Speaker 1:
[58:25] There's the spinoffs, which is Ice Home. And I want to say there was 17 of those. And then there is a spinoff of the spinoff called Ice Planet Clones, where it's another group of people on the same planet. And then there's also a wider Rubyverse. Imagine me spreading my hands. Because it's a spacefaring race. So there's, you know, corsairs in space, and the people, a home planet. And like, there's cat aliens, and there's an entire planet where they do like a little house on the prairie style homesteading. Because it's like a human refuge. And just like, I just keep playing in the same universe. And it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 2:
[59:11] And then in print, so far, it's just the Ice Planet Barbarians.

Speaker 1:
[59:16] And books, book 11 comes out December 1st.

Speaker 2:
[59:19] This lady is going to be so excited.

Speaker 1:
[59:21] Yes, she will be there on day one. And then like 12 and 13, I want to say, come out next year. And then I'm also doing Romanticy with Burleigh.

Speaker 2:
[59:32] So then you sort of started this new, like the Minotaur book was the beginning, right? That's the first. And those are traditionally published in both E and print, right? Those aren't NKU, right? Okay.

Speaker 1:
[59:46] I don't know if it was the first. It might have been bound to the Shadow Prince. That was the first. That was through Yonker, which was an experimental sort of thing that Webtoon did, where it was the serial.

Speaker 2:
[59:57] Oh, right.

Speaker 1:
[59:59] Bitch loves the serial. They would do like a chapter a week, but you had to like pay to unlock it or whatever. And readers were like, we absolutely hate this so much. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I mean, fast readers, I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[60:14] That is a really, that is tough for a fast reader. Like it is.

Speaker 1:
[60:19] It is. And as a reader, I get it. But as the author, it's fun to make you sweat for like a week, you know, so. Sure. It is the evil part of me. But I think that one initially, it was on the app and then it was audio and then it was print and then it was ebook. It was a very weird sort of rolling roll out. So.

Speaker 2:
[60:47] Is that that aspect in Anchor series, you mean?

Speaker 1:
[60:49] No, that's why it's not published.

Speaker 2:
[60:51] Okay, that, yeah. I love those. Again, I was like, I was literally like, Ruby is doing, like I just, one of the things I think readers might be curious or like listeners to hear about is, you clearly have a very fertile imagination, right? I mean, so you talked a lot about where it came from, like with your childhood reading, but like, how do you keep feeding, how do you keep feeding that, right? It must, or is it just really still all up in there, right? Do you struggle ever with like ideas or how to get them out into book form?

Speaker 1:
[61:23] I don't, no, I don't know. I think a lot of my ideas, they come from, I love reading non-fiction, like non-fiction about, usually about tragedies, like shipwrecks or my husband jokes where I've never met a book about a cannibal I didn't like. Like the Donner Party, like terrible situations that people have been in. And I also love like archeology books. I just read a book by Aiden Dodson about Amarna. I just read another book by Donald Ryan that was about his experiences working in the Valley of Kings. I just like a lot of history and you pull ideas from like these weird things that they throw in and it kind of forms an idea. And this idea sits in the back of your head. And I joke that it's a ball of trash. And it's a piece of trash that sticks in the back of your head. And then you get more pieces of trash. And then eventually all these pieces of trash form into a ball and that ball becomes the story. So a story is never one idea. It's like 20 ideas that ended up sticking together and forming a concept.

Speaker 2:
[62:39] Yeah, interesting. You should read books about Chernobyl. Sorry, that's like my personal. I mean, if you like a disaster story, it's unreal.

Speaker 1:
[62:47] Whaling ships in the 18th century, read them all, read them all.

Speaker 2:
[62:54] Amazing. So I think also people would be interested in, you're so prolific. What does it, I mean, do you write, you must write every day, all day long, how it is?

Speaker 1:
[63:06] I do write every day. It's not all day long. I've been actually a lot slower in the last year or two, and I think there's just a variety of things like the general situation as part of our society. And there's a lot of like administration with self-publishing and traditional publishing because like every time I turn around, I've got copy edits on something, I've got galleries on something, I've got 10 emails from bookstores that want stickers or whatever. And so like it ends up taking a lot more out of me than I realize. I do try to write every day because it bothers me anxiety wise if I don't. I'm still trying to get better about like, you can take a day off, can't I? But I do meet with friends on Zoom every morning, and we talk a little bit. I meet with Alexa Riley, Kati Wilde, same group. Yes, and we chat for a bit, and we work. That's so great. Yes, and we work. And we meet like in the morning and at night, and then sometimes it just drags on. But yeah, we get together and we're like, hey, let's get some work done.

Speaker 2:
[64:18] And so are you bouncing ideas off of each other?

Speaker 1:
[64:23] Sometimes it's just encouragement. Sometimes it's like, I know you have a book on sub, but you still got to work on something else, bitch.

Speaker 2:
[64:31] Oh yeah. When a book's on sub, you're like, I have nothing to do with anything.

Speaker 1:
[64:35] I can't do anything until the discussion. Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[64:40] And sometimes it's just, you know, And so can we talk, I really want to get back, I want to go back to the kind of hallmark of a Ruby Dixon book.

Speaker 1:
[64:55] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[64:55] Because I think there is some, I mean, I talked about how I think like your heroes really did transform the genre in a certain way. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that piece again, and do you feel like there was, it was in response to, you've clearly, you've said that politics sort of impact you. Do you feel like those heroes were birthed on the backs of politics in some way? Why do we, why are we so drawn to these soft boys?

Speaker 1:
[65:27] I think because like as current day women, there are so many responsibilities and there are so many men that feel like they have to act a certain way or do a certain thing. Or even like, you know, when you get married, the expectation is like, oh, you know, everything's equal, but is it equal at dinnertime or are you making dinner? You know, or is it like, you know, I don't know a good way to say it, but it still just feels unequal. Yeah. Or like, anybody that's worked in the workplace with a bunch of men and you're like, one of the 20% of the women, you know it ain't equal, you know?

Speaker 2:
[66:17] Well, and it's like the emotional labor that you do in those cases, right?

Speaker 1:
[66:22] And I do think a lot of it is like, I was tired of the women being the ones doing all the emotional labor. So I wanted the supportive guy. I wanted the guy that's like, he's just thrilled to have a wife, you know? Instead of like, oh well, you know, this is the best you can do sort of thing. And I say that, I love my husband. My husband is fantastic. He's the most-

Speaker 2:
[66:50] We all love our husbands.

Speaker 1:
[66:51] No, but people read into that.

Speaker 2:
[66:52] Yeah, not all men, but always a man.

Speaker 1:
[66:54] Right, right. I write about women having all kinds of babies. I have no children, happily. You know, it's just like, it's the fantasy. But, yeah, I wanted to write, like, you know, if I'm throwing everything in the kitchen sink into this fantasy world, why not make them just the nicest, most happy wife guys, you know? And because it's also fun to think that he's very monstrous on the outside and he's actually just like the opposite of like your chads, your incels or whatever, that you're meeting in like online dating now, which is pretty much all dating now. And I don't know, I just like the juxtaposition of like, yes, you can read about these terrible billionaires or these, you know, the dark romance and like, you know, the hero's so aggressive and angry. And I'm like, I don't know that I want angry. I could see snuggling up to in the cave. Right.

Speaker 2:
[68:01] Do your, so, and we've talked about like sort of TikTok and like that like huge wave of readership, but what about like individual readers? When you meet, you know, when you meet readers, like sort of one-on-one, or do you get like letters or emails? Like how do, is that, what do you hear from your readers?

Speaker 1:
[68:19] Readers love the different types of heroines that I have. And that's not something I consciously set out to do.

Speaker 2:
[68:30] But they are so different.

Speaker 1:
[68:32] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[68:32] And they're so like, some of them are really like tough and some of them are really like, like a mess, stiff, you know, like shy. I mean, like the whole range. It's lovely. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[68:46] Yeah. And I wanted, you know, I initially started out with like, it would be great to be able to write like three books in this series because I didn't have expectations for it. And then I was like, oh, it would be great to write Josie's book. And I always had planned hers to be like book six or whatever. And along the way, I ran into Tiffany's book and Tiffany is a black heroine. And I was like, I would feel really gross if I skipped it just because she's black. And I was like, well, I'm going to write it knowing that I, a white person, do not have the right context to write about this woman. But at the same time, I wanted to write it as a universal sort of story. Like it doesn't matter what color she is. I'm going to write about a woman in space. So I was hoping that that would be the right way to go about it. Was it correct? I don't know. Hindsight, I would have had a lot of sensitivity readers at the time. It was not a thing. And then as I kept writing, readers would write me and I'd be like, Oh, can you put a person that is Puerto Rican in this? Can you put a woman with anxiety in this? And I had like a deaf hero and I had a fat hero. I had all kinds of heroines. And the only thing that I heard from readers was, this is great. Can you make one that looks like me or has this problem that I have? And I was like, you know, people just want to be seen in a story. And I love that and I have definitely messed things up. I use a lot more sensitivity readers now than I did when I first started because I did have readers correct me. And they're like, you know, hey, I'm Cuban and you got this wrong. And I was like, oh, the good thing about self-publishing is you can take it, fix it. And so now I do use sensitivity readers and I'm like, hey, I need like 10 of you to read this and tell me what I did wrong. Tear me a new one if you need to, because I don't know what I don't know. I'm asking you for help. And so I pay sensitivity readers and I get a variety of opinions because you're always going to have somebody that's like, I loved it, no changes. Right. And that's a bad note.

Speaker 2:
[71:03] That's a bad note.

Speaker 1:
[71:04] And then you're going to have somebody else that's like, this is absolutely terrible. Let me tell you everything that you did wrong, which I really appreciate because like you see everything through your own perspective, you have blinders on. And so I want it to be, I don't want you to pick up a book and be disappointed in me. So it's a process. I'm always trying to get better. So, but I do enjoy writing a variety of heroines. I like writing people that have anxiety. I have anxiety. I don't know what it's like to not live with anxiety. You know, I wrote a heroine that is hard of hearing. And in addition to a deaf heroine, and like she needed like hearing aids, I wear hearing aids. So I went through her experiences where like, you know, she tells people she's, she pretends like she's following along with the conversation and she's not. And all the problems that that causes. I have a book coming up where the heroine has scoliosis and it's a fantasy world. And it's not corrected. And it's, and it's her perspective on how people treat her and how it affects like her perspective in the world. She, she gets angry at how people treat her and she decides she wants to do something about it. And I'm like, this is a perspective that I want to see because a couple of months ago, I was looking for books about scoliosis. And as a scoliosis, as an adult, and there's nothing, there is nothing, it doesn't go away once you hit 14. You know, your shoulders are still crooked. You still have back problems. Like your clothes fit funny. Like if I wanted somebody that had that sort of perspective, we're like, yeah, you know, if I do too much, my back's going to go out and then I'm for the next week and a half. And there was nothing there. I was like, I'm going to have to write it.

Speaker 2:
[73:01] So I love that.

Speaker 1:
[73:03] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[73:03] I'm just going to have to do it.

Speaker 1:
[73:06] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[73:06] You know, that to me is very Georgie, right? Like one of my favorite parts about like Georgie's book is her and Liz kind of being like, okay, who's going to go out there and do it? And they all look to her like you. Yeah. And I felt like that was the kind of like model of like womanhood that I really felt like was, you know, like Earthlings kind of brought to the table, right? Of like the planet itself, right?

Speaker 1:
[73:30] That was my, okay, I've been in a group project before and there's going to be like 80% discussion and 20%, someone's just going to have to dig in and do it. And then always the one that's like, let me just take over and do it because I know how I want it done.

Speaker 2:
[73:45] So that's the benefit of you having that terrible job that one time.

Speaker 1:
[73:50] Yes. I still have dreams where I'm in an office, like, you know, being called in to talk to my boss about what I did this last week. And it wasn't a terrible job, but there's just something about it that's like, it wasn't for you.

Speaker 2:
[74:07] It wasn't for you.

Speaker 1:
[74:08] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[74:09] You were destined for this greatness, not a different one.

Speaker 1:
[74:13] There we go.

Speaker 2:
[74:14] There we go. So, tell us about where you think this all goes. Are there, is there something in your head where you, do you have like a wish that you, you know, do you have something you really want to write? Something that, you know?

Speaker 1:
[74:33] Um, you know, I take it, I do try to take it book by book. Like, there are, like, I do want to write everybody's story for characters I have recently dropped on the Ice Planet. Because I feel like if there's a name, readers want a book.

Speaker 2:
[74:48] Oh yeah. And have you, now that you know, like, how expansive this world is, are you thinking of it that way? Like, I'm dropping people and already know, like, Yes. I put Sarah on the planet, she's going to be this. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[75:00] Yes. I have definitely done some of that. I would like to write the story of the initial crash. Like, because the whole thing is that they were a spacefaring race and they crashed there like a thousand years ago, blah, blah, blah. I've had people asking for that and I do want to write that. It's just that it's going to be a lot of work in fact checking myself. And not so good at fact checking myself.

Speaker 2:
[75:26] Where's the Ice Planet wiki? Come on. Wait, there definitely is one. It has to exist.

Speaker 1:
[75:32] There's a wiki.

Speaker 2:
[75:32] I was like, no, I've consulted with the wiki.

Speaker 1:
[75:36] Yes. I've had volunteers are like, just send me your pages, Ruby. I will fact check you. I'm like, that's useful. Yes, it is. But at the same time, I'm like, it has to be in my brain. That's a project I would definitely like to write. I would like to write the kids, but I don't want it to be like, oh, I just read book four and now-

Speaker 2:
[75:58] Yeah, now they're old.

Speaker 1:
[75:59] The four is old and she's got like 30 kids. Singing my song.

Speaker 2:
[76:03] Yeah, I don't know. Or my problem with kid romance. Yeah, the next generation. No one dies. No one should ever die.

Speaker 1:
[76:11] No, I'm still horribly scarred from like Juliet Marillier. Love her writing. The one with the seven swans and the brothers, Daughter of the Forest, Daughter of the Forest. The most beautiful love story in book one and in book three, she's old and she dies and her husband is there.

Speaker 2:
[76:31] Spoiler alert, that book's like 15 years old.

Speaker 1:
[76:33] Yeah, but I was like, that just ruined it for me. How could you? So nobody ages and dies on the Ice Planet.

Speaker 2:
[76:42] Then what about, do you think about like new pen name and also writing something completely different?

Speaker 1:
[76:47] No.

Speaker 2:
[76:48] This is it.

Speaker 1:
[76:48] If I wrote something completely different, it would be Ruby Dixon because I'm like, yeah, right now this is where you're sharp. You're working with all my Ruby fans. Yeah. I've had people-

Speaker 2:
[76:57] Yeah, this is where the reader truck is parked in the Ruby Dixon parking lot.

Speaker 1:
[77:02] Yeah. Yes. They're like, is your other name Nora Roberts? And I'm like, baby, if I was Nora Roberts, I would get that Nora Roberts money.

Speaker 2:
[77:11] You would have your own town if you were- That's Nora Roberts money. I own a town.

Speaker 1:
[77:17] I'm a company town now.

Speaker 2:
[77:18] If you ever own a town, will you name it Ice Planet?

Speaker 1:
[77:22] I would name it Croatoan because that's the village.

Speaker 2:
[77:26] Can I ask you a question? Okay, sorry. This is now that we're talking about how to-

Speaker 1:
[77:29] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[77:30] Can you give us the final word on how to pronounce the Cooey?

Speaker 1:
[77:37] So there's layers to that. I always say Cooey.

Speaker 2:
[77:42] I knew it.

Speaker 1:
[77:43] Okay. I always say Cooey because it sounds like cootie. Sure.

Speaker 2:
[77:46] That's what they call it. That's what they call it.

Speaker 1:
[77:48] They call it. The narrators of the books, some of them ask me how to pronounce things and some do not. So no judgment, but sort of judgment.

Speaker 2:
[78:03] Right.

Speaker 1:
[78:04] But I'm also like, it's a written medium. I picked that word because of how it looked on the page versus how it sounded. So there's no wrong answer.

Speaker 2:
[78:16] Fine. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[78:17] She says Cooey.

Speaker 2:
[78:19] She says Cooey. That's what we want to know. That's the tech. I'm like, what did your mother name you? Sometimes I say that to my students. What does your mother call you? That is your name, not what you're saying.

Speaker 1:
[78:31] I say Cooey.

Speaker 2:
[78:32] Cooey. You say Cooey.

Speaker 1:
[78:33] All right.

Speaker 2:
[78:35] One of the other questions we have is, is there a book that readers love best, and then is there a book that you love best? Or that you're really proud of? The one that you're like, this is Ruby Dixon. Wow.

Speaker 1:
[78:56] Let me think.

Speaker 2:
[78:57] Sometimes we frame that question as, is there a book that if you could only leave one behind, what's the book you would leave behind?

Speaker 1:
[79:05] I think right now, I mean, you always love the one that you just turned in. Villain Origin Story, which is My Heroin with Scoliosis, comes out in February of 2027. And I'm excited for that one because it's kind of a different sort of vibe for me because she's like, oh no, I'm going to ruin people's lives. I want to ruin people's lives. And I want to make people pay for how they've treated me. And she meets a hero that's like, he's like, cool. Let's behead everyone.

Speaker 2:
[79:41] Heads of Your Enemies as a love language is a real Crestly Cole, Sarah MacLean, Jen Prokop love. We love that.

Speaker 1:
[79:49] Usually my people are usually leaning towards good. So for me, it was a lot of fun to be like, well, what if we just go around murdering people?

Speaker 2:
[80:02] It's a 2026 vibe, really.

Speaker 1:
[80:05] It is. The whole inspiration was because she was sick of men's shit. And so she's like, yeah, I'm tired of this. I'm sick of being overlooked.

Speaker 2:
[80:16] That's great. I can't wait. I know. I can't either. And then what about readers? What is their?

Speaker 1:
[80:22] Readers. I get a lot of readers that love Josie's book. And I get a lot of reader mail about Barbarians Hope, which is Asha and Himalo, which are the two aliens that when they first land, they're like a broken up couple. They resonated. They lost a child. And they were no longer together. And I got so many emails when that book came out because their story is them finding each other again. And she ends up like pregnant with their second baby and like how they feel about it and process it and how they find each other again and forgive each other. Because when you have something that monumental that happens in a relationship, somebody blames somebody. Somebody acts out because of trauma. And I didn't intend to write it as like working through a trauma sort of story. But I think a lot of readers really resonate to that. I got so many emails from people that are like, you know, thank you for writing this. I have a rainbow baby writing this. You know, we lost our child and broke up and like, you know, I still think about him and just like so many people reading such a deep emotional thing in a book that I wrote about aliens, you know, and that really opened my eyes to like, you know, you can write about silly books and you can write about serious topics, but it doesn't have to be framed in a serious way. It's a lot of the time it's like, okay, this terrible thing happened. How do we move forward and still live our lives and still find happiness day to day? And I think that's what a lot of my books are, like something terrible happened. You know, maybe the world blew up. Maybe, you know, you were kidnapped from Earth. I don't know. You know, and it's like, okay, how do I move forward and still have an awesome life? And, you know, a lot of the stories, there's a guy in it, but he's not trying to change you. He's just trying to be awesome with you.

Speaker 2:
[82:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[82:43] And I think that speaks to a lot of people. It's a cozy sort of read.

Speaker 2:
[82:49] Yes. Romance. It's unmatched.

Speaker 1:
[82:52] That's right. Because if you have to change somebody, you shouldn't be getting with them anyhow. You have to love them with all their flaws. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[83:04] Ruby Dixon, you're amazing. That was amazing. I knew this conversation would be amazing, but now I'm very happy to know that I was right. This was really incredible. I'm so grateful to you. I'm so grateful to you for your books and for your time, but also because I feel like we spend so much time on Fated Mates like thinking about the movements of romance and the touchstones of romance. And we spend so, and it's so difficult to see them when you're living right up against them. Absolutely, yeah. But I just feel like from the moment I read Ice Planet Barbarians, I was like, this is something totally fresh and important. So your silly books about aliens were never silly to me.

Speaker 1:
[83:53] Yes, it's like, it's, I've always joked that like on the Taco Bell of literature, because like, who doesn't love Taco Bell though? But also like you get so many books thrown at you as a young adult or as somebody in college of like, here you have to read this because it's a literary icon, it's something formative, it's going to change your life. Well, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's just really dry and boring. And I just want you to love reading. I want you to have the same love of reading and fun when you open a book as I did when I was little.

Speaker 2:
[84:36] As when we were little, exactly. There's a joyfulness to the way children read that a lot of adults never find. And that's okay. Reading can be a lot of things, right? But I'm sure I'm going to tell you this really funny story. Maybe this is an inappropriate way to wrap up. But I was at a teaching conference once and someone's like, I kind of mentioned being a romance reader. And then sometimes they'll say, oh, me too. And I think they're now going to say, I love- Nicholas Fiery, Nicholas Sparks. Nicholas or whatever. And I was like, oh, so then I'm kind of always like, okay, well, what do you like? Let me test out this assertion. And this woman was like Ruby Dixon.

Speaker 1:
[85:13] And I was like, oh.

Speaker 2:
[85:14] One of us. You're for real. And we had a great time. So. That's awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[85:20] I just, I think it should be a good time. And that's one thing why I'm really excited for Complete Tangent, for the Dungeon Crawler Carl books to really be taking off. Because I feel like that's the twilight for dudes. Bring back into being and being like, yeah, reading doesn't have to be like, you know, military fiction or spies or whatever. It can be silliness, you know. Show them the silly side. And I think if everybody reads more, it wins.

Speaker 2:
[85:51] Yes, I agree. Well, thank you so much for being with us. This is amazing.

Speaker 1:
[85:56] Thank you. Thank you for being such big supporters of the books for so many years.

Speaker 2:
[86:02] That is honestly not at all a trial. Um, Ruby, everybody knows who you are, but would you just tell us a little bit about where we can find you and the next book, the next book?

Speaker 1:
[86:18] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[86:18] I'm sure there are several.

Speaker 1:
[86:20] So I am chronically online. I do have a website, rubydixon.com. I have a Facebook. I have an Instagram. I'm really bad at answering DMs. Don't DM me. It will just disappear into the void. But I do post a serial on a daily basis right now, just to throw a little something positive out into the universe and this hellish black pit that we are in. And I have a newsletter. It will not spam you. It will just be like twice a month. Here's what's going on with Ruby. I do have a book coming out in December. It is Farley's book, which is Book 11, Barbarian's Choice. And then in February 2027, I will have a hardcover called Villain Origin Story with Penguin Random House. And it's about a woman who gets tired of the patriarchy and goes to the evil emperor to teach her how to be evil too.

Speaker 2:
[87:21] So I want to read that right now. Evil lessons. It's like sex lessons, but for now.

Speaker 1:
[87:28] Yes. It turns out to be very different than what she expects.

Speaker 2:
[87:31] Oh, great. I can't wait. I'm so excited. If you're listening, Berkeley, you know my address.

Speaker 1:
[87:38] Same. I'll get Holly to send you some.

Speaker 2:
[87:41] There you go. You all know people.

Speaker 1:
[87:43] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[87:45] It was funny though. So we are recording this only about 12 hours after Artemis 2 splashed down into the ocean. Just like everyone, everything I ever think about is really filtered through the romance brain. I found myself feeling really hopeful about space, really. I thought this and the Ice Planet Barbarians make me feel hopeful about space.

Speaker 1:
[88:09] You know what? I couldn't watch it because...

Speaker 2:
[88:11] Challenger. Sure.

Speaker 1:
[88:13] Challenger. Watched it in a geometry class when I was a kid. Teacher turned it on.

Speaker 2:
[88:19] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[88:20] Turned it right back off.

Speaker 2:
[88:21] Yeah. I was like, okay.

Speaker 1:
[88:22] Yeah. So an entire generation of comments.

Speaker 2:
[88:25] But they're back and everything is great and the moon is perfect from the back side. And I couldn't be happier for everyone involved. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Ruby. We hope it's not the last time you come back anytime.

Speaker 1:
[88:40] All right. Sounds good.

Speaker 2:
[88:43] The best ones are the ones where you just wind them up and they just tell you their whole story in a perfect three line, which frankly, no fucking surprise, this lady's written 400 books and is great at it. At the beginning, we talked a little bit about the first wave of Trailblazers. Now we're in our second era. In the first round, we are talking to women who are like right older than us in a lot of cases. And they're sort of like entrance into the romance space. Like over and over again, you're hearing things like The Flame and the Flower and Kathleen E. Woody Wesson, right? Like sort of those early books. And for all the authors we've ever talked to, a big through line was like, what was I reading as a child? What was on the shelves of my home as a child or in the places I can access books? And so of course, it was so fascinating to hear her say, her mom loved old sci-fi, right? Like old westerns and then- That was the first time we've heard Clan of the Cave Bear. Yes. I mean, which of course, like- Of course. I can't believe I've never said Clan of the Cave Bear in an interview. Like I remember picking that, I mean, my mom, everybody's mom had that. Everybody's mom had that book and everybody was like, I'm gonna read this, right? It was, and I was just like, of course, right? What went into the primordial soup that was, that is like Ruby Dixon's baby. Ruby Dixon being birthed by Clan of the Cave Bear makes such perfect sense. Yes. I assumed she said it. I was like, of course. Listen, there is a lot about this world that we live in that I am just flummoxed by today. But that moment of just utter clarity, just the universe is writing itself, everyone. Right. Often you hear people putting it together for themselves, too. And I don't know, maybe, you know, I can't read Ruby's mind. But when she was talking, I felt like there was a way that even she was like, oh, even it was making sense to me, right? I mean, the moment, the first name she said was Anne McCafferty. And I was like, oh, wait, say less, as the children say. Like, that is 1000 percent correct. That these are the people who stitched your DNA. And then, and then the last of the Mohicans. Again, lost on a kind of unhospitable planet. I didn't bring it up, but I found myself thinking, it's also a really different time in terms of like how adults like really thought of like their children as readers. And there was just a point where kids like ran out of books to read. And then it was totally cool to just give your kids like adult books. You know what I mean? Like, what else was there? I mean, I remember like reading like James Michener and like this Travis McGee series of mysteries. And, you know, you were just really hungry for any adult to like sort of steer you to a book. And be like, okay, I'll try this. And so, you know, I think the other thing too is I really want to say if you are a person who is potentially over involved in your child's reading life, like just let them read, like write, let them read. And I think whatever it is that's interesting to them, you know, I think that that is like a, you know, they will put down the things they don't want to read and read the things they do and it's fine. Yeah. And don't be so scared about them reading sex, everyone. You'd rather have them reading consensual, like wife guys from Ruby Dixon than- Yeah, right. Whatever they're discovering on the rabbit hole of Reddit. Right. So there is that. I'm really, I was really, and I'm sure you saw it and heard it when she was like, I don't need New York. Yes. Like the words, she said the words and I thought that's it. That's the modern Trailblazer, right? Like every other Trailblazer we've ever had, right? The dream. You know, even EE Ottoman, who is our youngest Trailblazer, right? Probably. Yeah, that's probably true. And EE started really desperately, you know, when he talks about his story, he talks about, you know, desperately trying to get published by small presses. Radcliffe talks about the creating small presses, right? Yeah. And the pure desire to be published in print for bookstores. But the moment that Ruby said that, that's really the shift. And there are other people who, you know, I reference Bella Andre and Barbara Freevy, like, who both of whom I think are also people who, like, are people who would be interested in, interesting in this context. But that's it. And yeah, and I would say, like, the big shift. So if that's like 2020, I don't need New York. I feel like in 2026, it's like, and New York needs us. Well, the fact that she was being published traditionally during all of this by Berkeley, and they knew about Ice Planet Barbarians, but just didn't think it was, that won't sell traditionally. And now look at the way these books are, are selling, like a constant stream. I had just sort of assumed that, like, Berkeley came calling, right? Like, let us, let us put these books in print. And so it was really fascinating to hear instead that, like, and it does make sense, right? Like, who is getting the emails and the DMs saying, I can't get this in my bookstore? Who is being tagged in those social media posts saying, people come in and want to buy these books, right? And I think, like, we, that's an echo of all the things we heard all throughout the heated rivalry, like, big push, like, right? Like, you know, people, you know, books after books are saying, people are coming in looking for this book and they, and I don't have it. And I do think that is, like, a really, how fast a book goes from being, like, well, it doesn't matter because you can read it online. These are e-book first and to know, like, at some point, reader, like, rightly capturing the reader who only reads in print. Yeah, the Venn diagram of readership. I mean, the, that story that she told where it was like, you know, the lady was looking for book 11, and what just downloaded on your phone, my friend. Like, but no, that's not, that's not how she wants it. And I think it's just, this conversation felt really transformational for us too, like in the series, because it was like, oh, this is, this is how we talk about the shift. I love that she talked about her work around trying to write to readers, like, you know, she hears from readers who want, you know, a character who looks like them, acts like them, is from their same culture, and how she sort of has evolved as a writer to think about that. I talk a lot whenever, like, people ask us about the podcast in the world, like, and what we've learned from writers. One of the things I think the most about is that we sort of fall into two camps and the camps are writers who write for themselves and writers who write for readers. And I say that everybody, and I always feel like I have to qualify, I am not placing judgment on either of these things. Like, I think great books come from both of these camps.

Speaker 1:
[96:34] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[96:36] But it's very clear to me that, like, Ruby is really thinking about readers. Yeah. But also, like, only to a certain extent, right? Like, you know, and I think that that, like, right? That there's like a, and I think this is true in genre fiction. I think you probably have to keep your eye on both at, like, different times. You can sort of be situated in one of those, but, you know, if you're only writing for yourself in genre, of course, at some point, they're going to be like, what about the readers? But if you're only trying to, like, write to the reader and they're, your readers are just too different, right? And so I was really fascinated by the whole part about, like, I still like to, you know, kind of, like, release things as a serial every once in a while. Like, that is really fulfilling for Ruby to, like, think about it that way and to, like, you know, sort of have her, what do you call it, her villain moment or whatever. And I think that that was, so that I was really, I was really fascinated in the idea that, like, there are times and, like, limits on that, like, right? Like, she cares about the reader, but also she is really writing to, I mean, you know, I, like, the club was also really interesting, right? Oh, yeah, that was the next thing I was going to break. You know, here's then, like, four of us who, like, kind of sat down and said, we think that we can produce, I guess, five, Alexa Riley's two people, right? We think we can produce in a certain way and at a certain time, at a certain pace, and that that will be really, like, well regarded by readers who have a Kindle, who read like we do, right? And so I thought that was also just really fascinating. I love that. I also love the longevity of that group. Like, same group that started together in 2015 is now still meeting daily. Like, it speaks to the need for community even in the work that we are doing.

Speaker 1:
[98:33] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[98:34] It speaks to, and like obviously she named, we recognize the names that she spoke. They're all like successful writers in their own worlds. But I think often, and I worry about this as somebody who's like been coming through romance for so long, right? Like, my career in romance feels ancient in a lot of ways. And the community piece was built in many ways by places like RWA, places like RT, where you would go and you would meet each other. And I know that it does feel a little more, a little lonelier now. I think people always find new outlets if you're looking for that, right? Like, I have heard about so many like writer discords, for example, or write things like that where people are sort of gathering together to write. But I do think that there is like a small group of your writer, your club, right? Your writer's club, the people that you can get on a Zoom with, that you can ask questions to, that you can sort of like feel like you're in the room with people. You know, that's going to make the books better. It is going to make your book better, it's going to make their books better because, you know, writing, I think, I think it has such a funny, especially now that I'm editing, like such a funny, like, oh, you just sit in alone in your house and do it. And then when you talk to writers, it's like, no, I have my people. I have the people I write with. I have the people who I bounce ideas off of. Yeah, so I was really interested in hearing about that too. Well, I thought this was so fun. Yeah, I loved it. I feel great about this. I just feel so warmly towards people who really love romance and realize and recognize just how much opportunity there is in the romance face, right? That if you're burned out, I mean, I think that was like to me too, if you are an author, it has to feel so compelling to essentially have someone say, like, just write what you want, write your weird little books, you know? Write the thing that is like in your brain and go ahead and do it. And I think that that is another really big part of what I found really inspiring, is just like the idea that the reinventing yourself isn't just for the market, it's reinventing yourself for what you love, what you're interested in, the stories that you want to tell. Absolutely. I mean, especially because if you listen to the story that she told, she was like, well, first, I wrote motorcycle because motorcycle was the market.

Speaker 1:
[101:26] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[101:27] And it's like Kati Wilde did too, and she could write a banger in motorcycles, right? But like, chasing the market works for some people because they have the instinct for whatever the market is doing. But man, if you had told me in 2013, if you had said to me, the biggest fucking series coming down the pike is Blue Aliens, I would have been like, that's crazy talk. But it was because she clearly, I mean, there is no question that this woman's DNA was coded with Blue Aliens.

Speaker 1:
[102:06] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[102:06] Right. This was her destiny.

Speaker 1:
[102:09] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[102:09] Of course. And ours. I love it. Yeah. It was great. It was really fun. If you have not had a chance to read Ice Planet Barbarians, and you do decide to read the first book, which is a banger, we earlier this year did a deep dive of it. And then if you have read Ice Planet Barbarians, don't forget to go over and listen to Ice Planet Pod, which was a podcast from Dani Lacey, right? Which is still available. It's like you have to dig for it. We'll put it in show notes so that you can check it out. And it's really fun. And you and I were both on that one. But it also, like, there's just like a lot of, I think, like I said, you as an author, like, no one's gonna want to read my weird book about blue aliens. And then it's like, no, everyone is, right? And I can't always promise that's gonna happen. But I do think that there are ways in which, like, if you come to a topic with like, I just love this and think it's the best thing ever, there is a sort of authenticity to it that I think romance readers really flock to. It's contagious. One of the biggest problems I think of with romance right now is that writers are flattening their texts, right? They're saying like, oh, well, I have to write a book that feels exactly like these other people, like Emily Henry, Ellie Orselwood, Abbey Jimenez, Carly Fortune, whatever, like make your list, and you lose yourself in that. Unless, of course, like some people are very good at that kind of book, but don't lose yourselves. I mean, you don't need New York. I'm Sarah MacLean, and here with my friend Jen Prokop, we are Fated Mates. You can listen to us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts, or you can find us online at Threads or Instagram at Fated Mates Pod, on Blue Sky at Fated Mates. If you go to fatedmates.net, you can click on episodes and see show notes for where we'll list all the authors that Ruby talks about in this episode and some other things, anything else that we sort of talk about. Also a list of the books she references that are hers. Her most recent book or the book that she felt most proud of, which is Villain Origin Story is not out until next spring. There is no cover yet, but we'll come back and add the cover in the future. What else? If you want to talk more about Ruby, about Trailblazers, if you want to suggest people for this idea of modern Trailblazers, we want to hear all about it. You can obviously mention, you can tell us on all the social media outlets that I talked about, or if you'd like to come over and hang out with a bunch of other Fated Mates listeners, we talk about romance all the time. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com/fatedmates, which will get you access to our Discord, where romance readers are talking about romance constantly. Also you get an extra episode every month from the Discord or from the Patreon, and we'd love to have you over there. Thanks so much to Ruby Dixon for spending time with us and sharing your story, and we will see you all next week.