transcript

Speaker 1:
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At one point, Chad admitted to a sexual encounter outside of their marriage. A counselor urged Donielle to leave, but she didn't, because she chose to stay and repair what was broken to keep her family intact. And for a while, life moved forward. But over time, Chad became more distant. He spent nights away from the family, often sleeping in his downstairs office telling Donielle that he had work. Then in February of 2017, everything unraveled. At around 3.30 in the morning on February 7th, he broke into the rural Illinois farmhouse of Larry and Connie Van Oosten, an older couple in their 60s, well known in their community. And he came prepared, a handgun, a stun gun, a ski mask, and a voice altering device. He waited until morning and then woke them, held them at gunpoint and forced them into the trunk of his car. He drove roughly 20 miles to another property that he owned, where he had constructed something chilling. A hidden, soundproof safe room. And it was equipped with cameras and intercom and a microphone so he could monitor them from upstairs. And he kept them restrained, threatened their lives, and even threatened their children and grandchildren if they did not comply. And for nearly 48 hours, they were missing. Then came the next step in his plan. He drove Connie still in her pajamas to a bank about 30 miles away and forced her to withdraw $350,000. But inside the bank, she managed something remarkable. She slipped a note to the teller that read, My husband and I are being held at gunpoint. Do not react. Do not follow us. Well, that note set everything in motion. Police were called. Surveillance footage captured Chad's vehicle. And shortly after, following a high speed chase that ended in a crash, he was arrested. And inside the car, authorities found a mask, gun, stolen plates, pieces of a plan that had already begun to collapse. After his arrest, he confessed. And he led police to the couple who were rescued alive. The motive, prosecutors later said, came down to desperation. Financial troubles had been mounting. He had stolen more than $300,000 from his own family and was facing the threat of legal action. So the kidnapping and the extortion, it was all part of this attempt to cover it up. In 2019, he pled guilty to multiple counts, including aggravated kidnapping and home invasion. A judge called the crimes heinous and sinister before sentencing him to 60 years in prison. But even with the facts laid out, even after the arrest and the confession and the sentencing, there's another side to this story that isn't captured in court documents. Because for Donielle, the devastation didn't begin and end with what her husband did. It was the realization that the life that she had believed in, the man that she had trusted, the reality that she had lived within, was not what she thought it was. And so that is the part that has stayed with me. Because while the crime is shocking, it's also in a way contained. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. But for Donielle, there was no clean ending. There was only the aftermath. So six children, a family suddenly defined by something that they did not choose, questions with no easy answers. So I got the great privilege of interviewing Donielle to ask her about the aftermath of this. The red flags, what she now in retrospect thinks that she looked away from, and how she is moving forward after this. So you can watch the episode of Betrayal, Secrets & Lies, on Hulu. And I, again, I'm so grateful for her time. Here is my interview with Donielle. Well, first of all, I'm thrilled to meet you. I was unfamiliar with this story, and I'm scrolling through Instagram last week, and I came across the People magazine article. Actually, you can see I wrote in the responses, say what now? And then I had to track you down and find you. So I am so thrilled that you're with me today. Welcome.

Speaker 2:
[06:10] Thanks. I'm a little bit flabbergasted that I'm on your show. You have an amazing show.

Speaker 1:
[06:17] Thank you. Well, first, tell everybody a little bit about your own family. So where did you grow up? Tell me about your parents and your siblings.

Speaker 2:
[06:25] Well, my parents and siblings were all very, very close. We grew up in California, in the Bay Area. I have an older brother and two younger sisters. And my brother still lives in California. I now live in Illinois with the rest of my family. My dad got transferred back, I think it was 95 or something like that, to the Rock Island Arsenal. And so we all moved to Illinois and we stayed really close. All of my sisters are still, both my sisters are still here with her families. And we get together all the time, play games. All holidays are together. My brother joins in on Zoom sometimes.

Speaker 1:
[07:07] That's sweet. And what would you say your high school experience was like? And I know that faith and your church community was really important.

Speaker 2:
[07:17] Yeah. I grew up as a homeschooled child, all of my siblings with me. Our faith is very important to us. All of my family is what we call Christ followers. We don't like to identify with a certain like religion. Christianity, I guess, would be the closest. But yeah, Bible believing, Christ followers.

Speaker 1:
[07:42] And so you had one boyfriend that was really important to you in high school, and his name was Billy. And then you had to move. And because of it, of course, you have to break up.

Speaker 2:
[07:54] He actually became sort of like a son to my parents because he was around so much. But yeah, my dad got transferred to Hawaii and we had to live there for a little bit. And that was like right at the end of my high school. No, that was right after high school. And so I had to kind of cut it off with Billy. I don't remember the full reason why I cut it off with him. I just remember that people were saying, there's more fish in the sea because he was my first love. They're like, maybe you should go and see what else is out there.

Speaker 1:
[08:28] So after Hawaii, what happens then? You went off to school and tell me about meeting Chad.

Speaker 2:
[08:34] Okay. So after Hawaii, I came back and I actually started college in California. But then my dad got transferred out to Illinois. And so our whole family, except for my brother, moved to Illinois. And then I was like, I don't really know anybody here in Illinois. Kind of a strange place for me. The way people acted in Illinois was a lot different than people in California, to be honest. It's just a whole different feel in the Midwest. And, but anyways, so my sister had started going to a junior college here and she invited me to a Bible study at that junior college because we were trying to meet new people and yeah, just get established here in Illinois. And at that Bible study was Chad. And for whatever reason, I immediately fell in love. I think it was mainly because the questions that were asked in that Bible study, he was answering them the way that I would answer them. And so I felt that we were on the same level spiritually and, you know, he was cute too. So, and I thought we were actually the same age. Turns out he's like three and a half years younger than me. But yeah, it was an immediate reaction to seeing him and seeing the way he was portraying himself.

Speaker 1:
[10:06] And the other people that were around you in that Bible study and at that school, did they seem to be taken with his personality too?

Speaker 2:
[10:12] Oh, yeah, everybody, you know, they all felt that he was genuine. You know, he's just a normal college kid that's, you know, at a Bible study and participating actively in the Bible study. You know, a lot of times in Bible studies, the leader will ask a question about the Bible or, you know, about what somebody thinks about that passage. And usually there's hardly anybody answering. You know, usually it's super quiet and maybe one or two people will offer an answer. But he was answering almost every question, and the answers were very similar to what I was thinking in my head. So when I saw that he's able to answer confidently and, you know, in a way that I agree with, I felt like he definitely knew his Bible and must have a relationship with Christ like I do. So that was attractive to me.

Speaker 1:
[11:07] So how soon into the relationship are you discussing, potentially getting engaged and when does he propose?

Speaker 2:
[11:14] When I date someone, I date them because I'm looking at them as a potential life partner.

Speaker 1:
[11:20] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[11:21] So when I saw him and I saw that he was, you know, seemed to be on the same page as me. But I also didn't want to like rush in to a relationship, a committed relationship. So I waited a couple of years before we got married. I think I met him in 96 and we got married in 99. So it was a good long dating season. And we went to counseling and talked deeply about how our marriage would look and what roles we would play in our marriage as far as, who would be the main breadwinner, who would be the main person taking care of the different household things, how would we would take care of our finances, whether we wanted kids or not, all that stuff that you talk about when you're dating somebody that you're looking to marry.

Speaker 1:
[12:15] So remember hearing you say that within the first year, you're trying for a baby, it doesn't happen right away. And in that first year and you're navigating potential fertility, he comes to you one day and tells you the most surprising thing. Will you walk us through that?

Speaker 2:
[12:35] Yeah, so it's funny, I'm looking over at the couch where it's not the same couch, but it's exactly the same place that it happened because I'm living in the house that I was living in when we were first married. So he came home and sat me down on the couch, and he said, there's something really important I need to talk to you about. I was like, okay, what? He said, I just have to let you know that I had an encounter with a guy in the bathroom. I was like, an encounter with a guy that I don't understand what you're saying, that doesn't make any sense to me. What are you talking about? And he would not give me a full story about it. He just was very vague. The most I could get out of him was that he was looking and the other guy was looking. I don't even know what that means. Was this full adultery? Was this just somebody looked at him, and so he looked at them? I really don't know. And I'm a pretty naive, innocent person. And so this type of stuff is, especially newly married to somebody you think you know, it was extremely devastating, but also confusing. I didn't know how to handle it. I had to work through whatever was going on with this, whatever encounter he had. So we decided to get counseling. We went to our church and asked them to recommend a counselor that we could go to see. And we started seeing that counselor together, as a couple.

Speaker 1:
[14:34] At that point, did he say, I'm committed to this relationship? Or did you get a sense that maybe he was looking for a way to get out?

Speaker 2:
[14:42] No, at that point, I felt that we were still absolutely together and in agreement about stuff. I mean, he was crying and saying he was sorry and that nothing like this would ever happen again, nothing like this ever happened before. I mean, to me, it just sounded like an indiscretion and he wanted to work through it and continue our marriage.

Speaker 1:
[15:06] Did you share with anybody in your family or your friends what was going on or did you keep it pretty quiet?

Speaker 2:
[15:13] I kept it between us. Yeah, I didn't feel like that was something I should share, mainly because it was something that he had done. And so I felt like that was something if he wanted to share that, he should share it.

Speaker 1:
[15:28] So then you go on to have six children, and tell me the age range for the kids.

Speaker 2:
[15:34] The oldest right now is 23 and the youngest is 14.

Speaker 1:
[15:40] And what is the mix, girls versus boys?

Speaker 2:
[15:43] Two girls, four boys, girls are the bookends.

Speaker 1:
[15:46] Okay. And your life is obviously very filled in those years. And you have said raising children has been the greatest joy of your life, especially when you're the first one, and she's so cute and people are stopping you at the stores and saying, I mean, could this baby be any cuter? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:07] She was very adorable and very easy. Like, you know, when you think of a dream baby, that was her. She slept with the night almost immediately, didn't have problems nursing her. She ate whatever I put in front of her after, you know, I went through because I nursed her for the full year before I put actual food in front of her. But yeah, super easy baby. Laughing all the time. Always very alert. From the day she was born, from the minute she was born, she was looking around and she was very alert. She's always had a very wise old soul.

Speaker 1:
[16:43] While you're raising the kids, he is working. So tell me a little bit about the jobs that he had.

Speaker 2:
[16:50] Let's see. Beginning of our marriage, he worked at an elevator company. And he was gone during the normal hours of the day. Came back and it was just a normal family. Comes back and we welcome him and we have dinner together and we do the normal family things. And then he became a manager at, there's a like a gas station convenience store that's close by. He became a manager there and worked there for a long time. And then we had two more kids at that house in Geneseo, and then we moved to another house in Geneseo. And that's the house that I was in right when everything happened, which I like to refer to that time as Freedom Day, because it freed us from a lot of like blindness and abuse, and yeah, just freed us from that life we were living.

Speaker 1:
[18:00] So he is somebody who is really over the top with gifts. And you said that you're living in this gigantic house. And he's online, and he's saying that he's getting certifications. He's busy all the time. So for you, you're assuming, of course, because why wouldn't you think, that everything he's telling you is true. That he's getting these certifications, he's really busy with clients, he's got all of these projects. Would you say one of the first red flags is that he's not sleeping with you, he's got like a cot in an...

Speaker 2:
[18:38] It's not even a cot, it's a full like king size bed in his office, in the basement. Yeah, because when we moved to that house that we were in on Wolf Road. At that point, I thought he had quit his job at the gas station. That's what he told me. But he had quit his job because, no, he was let go, is what he said. They let me go because I was trying to get the system up onto like a more of a modern way of keeping track of the accounting and stuff. And they didn't like it, the owners back then didn't like it. They liked doing everything on actual paper. And so they didn't like the way I was doing it. So they let me go. That was the story he told me. But I found out later that it was because he was actually stealing money from the gas station. And so they fired him. But at that point, when we were living there, he had put a bed in his basement. And he was, what he told me was getting a financial advisory certification so that he could do his financial advising. And that's the job that he got after he was fired from his gas station job.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[21:45] Yeah, I mean, I was not involved at all with his business because he was doing it all in the basement. I was upstairs homeschooling my kids. At that point, I had four, and then I had two more in that house. And so I was busy with babies and homeschooling. So I didn't, like, the finances and stuff was his thing. I didn't even look at the bank accounts because I felt like he had that under control. Looking back on it, I felt like, wow, I was really just turning a blind eye to all that stuff because if I had really thought about the finances, there's no way a financial advisor could have made enough to pay for not only the house we were living in, but several rental properties that he ended up purchasing. The house that I'm living in now that we kept. So he had a bunch of mortgages, right? He must have. Plus, he would take all of us, me, six kids, and him on vacation across country to California, which is where a lot of my family is, my extended family. And we would stay in like rental homes, you know, those vacation rental homes. And not, not, you know, run down ones, really nice ones. And then we would go to zoos and amusement parks, water parks, you know, all this stuff. And I remember thinking, how are we able to pay for all this? And I remember asking him, are you sure that we have enough money to do all of this stuff? And he was like, why are you even asking me that? Don't you trust that I can take care of this family?

Speaker 1:
[23:38] So he's shaming you, like you don't trust me. How dare you?

Speaker 2:
[23:42] Yeah. How dare you? Yeah. Ask about that. I thought we talked about, you know, me being in control of the finances and you trusting me about being able to do this stuff.

Speaker 1:
[23:53] Did you ever notice other behaviors that were odd with people in your community, your friends or your family, where he would react in a similar way, very just defensive?

Speaker 2:
[24:05] He didn't. I think he was only that way with me. Like he, when we were with other people, he was like a different person. Like for instance, my parents would come over every week to watch movies or play a game. And when they were there, he was always like a doting husband and father. He would sometimes make the meal. He would play around with the kids. He would play board games with us, with my parents. He was just very loving, and that's the way he portrayed himself when my parents were there. When my parents were gone, with a different story, he would clam up or go straight to his basement. Or the way he played with the kids was different when my parents were there, as opposed to when they weren't there. He would play with them until they would cry, and then he would say, you know, why are you crying? This doesn't hurt. You're having fun. You know, like telling them, you are having fun. So stop crying. Yeah, it was totally different when people were around than when we were alone.

Speaker 1:
[25:29] So we know now that he was essentially robbing people in his life, skimming money off of people, their investments, because he would portray himself as some sort of wealth manager, financial analyst. So for the people that he would meet, was it, like I said, always talking about his business and what he can do for people? Did it ever make you uncomfortable? Like, do you really have to talk to the person at church about how you can help them with their finances?

Speaker 2:
[25:59] I wasn't there when he was talking to them about it. That's stuff that he would do in his office. So when we were out, like, when we were attending church, finances and his work did never come up. When we were out with people, that stuff didn't ever come up. It was anything that he had to do with his business or finances was all done away from me. So, yeah, I wasn't part of any of that.

Speaker 1:
[26:23] Now, going back to that moment that he sat with you on the couch and he said, I have something very, very serious to tell you about. Did you ever get in any sense after that, that he may have been intimate with anybody else outside of your marriage after that occurred?

Speaker 2:
[26:39] No, but there were incidents of me being on the computer and all of a sudden coming across pictures, like pornography pictures. And I remember it happened at least twice, maybe three times, where I would come across those pictures and I would get so shaky, like, this can't be happening, what is going on? I would approach him about it. Like, I remember the first time it happened, I approached him about it, I'm like, what is this? You know, I know I'm not the one who put those pictures on there, so it had to have been you. And it was again, the whole crying, I'm so sorry, I'll never do this again, maybe we should go see a counselor, you know, all the, you know, portraying himself as very sorry about what had happened. And then the second time it happened, I came to him again, and, you know, the same thing. And whenever, like, that would happen, he would say, I'm going to get an accountability partner, and I'm going to do all this, and I'm going to, you know, maybe I should resign from my position at church because he was an elder in the church, and, you know, he would write me a big, long letter about all the things that he was going to work on, and, you know, and he even asked me to be his accountability partner by asking him every once in a while, out of the blue, just ask me, you know, how I'm doing with, you know, my temptations, is how he called it. And so when I would ask him, you know, so how's it going? You know, what, are you having a problem with it at all lately? Or, you know.

Speaker 1:
[28:18] Like putting the problem on you.

Speaker 2:
[28:21] Yeah, like basically saying, hey, you know, you asked me for when I'm having a problem. Yeah, but then when I would do that, I would get, how are you even asking me this? You know, what is it that I'm doing that's making you feel this way? How could you even not trust me to, you know, take care of that stuff and not be tempted by that stuff? And so it was, it was always turned back on me. Everything was twisted back onto me. Like it's my problem, my fault.

Speaker 1:
[28:54] And if he does it again, it's because you were not holding him accountable.

Speaker 2:
[28:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:00] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[29:00] And it was always like, I like to use the word, word salad, because when I would talk to him about things, the words that I was saying to him, he would bounce back to me and they would become completely twisted around. Like if I was concerned about something, then he would say, oh, well, you're just making a mountain out of a molehill.

Speaker 1:
[29:23] Right.

Speaker 2:
[29:24] You're being way too sensitive about that. Or he would say, you are not remembering that the way it happened. This is how it actually happened. I remember coming to him at some point where I was like, I feel like I'm going crazy because you keep telling me that things are happening differently than what I'm remembering. So I feel like I'm going a little crazy here. For me, if I had a spouse that came up to me and said, I feel like I'm going crazy, I feel like I would say no. Automatically, I would say, no, you're not crazy and give them comfort. But what came back from him was just kind of a laugh and a smirk and no reassurance that, no, you're not crazy.

Speaker 1:
[30:08] So then this leads us to the night in which you're sleeping, or you're at home. Can you walk us through what happened that evening?

Speaker 2:
[30:19] Yeah. So I had gone to bed, and I usually go to bed pretty late. And I all of a sudden heard a loud banging, and I remember glass breaking. Later found out there was no glass breaking, so I don't know why my brain heard glass breaking, but there wasn't any. And the next thing I heard was police hands up, state police. And I came and walked, I mean, there's a really long hallway in that house. And so I came walking down that hallway. I hadn't put my glasses on or anything, so I couldn't see who was yelling state police. And so I didn't know if it was actually state police, but I could see a gun. And so I obviously put my hands up, because I didn't want to get shot, you know? And just hope for the best. Like, I don't really know what's going on here, but somebody's got a gun in my face. So then they sat me down on my piano bench and started to ask me questions. I could barely even answer because my mouth was so dry because I was so scared. I was like, can I go to the bedroom and get my water? I can't even talk because my mouth is too dry. And they're like, no, no, somebody else will get it. Can somebody get my glasses so I can see? Somebody else will go get it. Can I get my kids? No, you cannot go anywhere. You have to stay right here.

Speaker 1:
[31:46] And the kids are all at home and they're asleep.

Speaker 2:
[31:49] Yes. They're all in their beds. I thought they were still asleep. I don't know why I would think that because if I was woken up by a loud banging, they probably were too. But yeah, I found out later that some of them had woken up, not all of them, but some of them had woken up. Here's a funny story that I just found out from my son. He did not hear them say state police. He heard them say, say please. So when they came into his bedroom, he had his hands up in the air and he was like, please, please, please. Because he thought that they were saying, say please or else I'm going to shoot you.

Speaker 1:
[32:30] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:
[32:30] It was a really scary thing. And he said that he got down out of his bed before they came into his room, and it was hiding all of his toys in the corner underneath his clothes. They would ask me, do you have a hiding place in your house? And I was like, I mean, my kids play hide and seek sometimes. There's a little place underneath that area in the porch that they sometimes use for a hiding place. But where's your husband? I think he's downstairs sleeping because that's where he usually is. If he's not, I really don't know. Is his car in the garage? Because if he was gone, the car wouldn't be there, which is another thing that I didn't know about. I didn't know he had a Chevy Caprice. The only thing I knew was that we had an SUV and he had just sold his red truck. And then he sold the SUV because he got in an accident with it, and bought a Mountaineer, which didn't make sense to me because we're a family of eight and it only seats seven. So that's the only cars that I knew that we owned. But prior to that night, my son later on told me that he had seen a car that, the way he described it, it had to have been the Chevy Caprice, come up our drive because we have a private drive. And he was wondering who it was. And a few weeks before everything happened, I had noticed a car sitting on the street, like in our easement. And I was like, there's a car out there that's just sitting there and it's been there for a while. And he was like, oh, we'll just, we'll call the police about it. Don't worry about it. So I think that that was the Caprice and he was parking it there because he didn't want me to know that we had a good reason. So many things like that, that hindsight. I'm like, oh, that's what that was.

Speaker 1:
[34:37] Like all clicking together.

Speaker 2:
[34:38] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:40] When did you get an opportunity to see him after that, that moment in your home?

Speaker 2:
[34:48] The first time I saw him was at divorce court.

Speaker 1:
[34:51] So what happened in the aftermath of the police coming there?

Speaker 2:
[34:55] They took me to the interrogation room. My friend took my kids from our home and brought them to her home. I was in the interrogation for I don't know how long, because time is weird. I think maybe an hour or two, but I don't really know. They took me to my friend's house that had my kids after that, and at that point, I was still very confused because they were not giving me any information as to why they were asking me all these questions. The only thing I knew was that my husband was safe, and that they had him in custody, and that's it. I didn't know why they had him in custody, and I didn't know why they were asking me questions about my Sunday school teachers. All of it was just like, this makes no sense. Why? Why? Then I heard on the news, I think, or it might have been his dad called me first. When his dad called me, he said, do you know where Chad is? And I was like, no, do you know where Chad is? Because I don't, and I would like to know. And he said, well, I think that the police have him because there's a rumor around town that he kidnapped this couple. And I was like, no, that's impossible. That's, that's not Chad. They must have the wrong person. Yeah, I was very, very confused. And it sounded like his dad was confused a little bit too because he was asking me questions. And the question is, I wasn't able to answer because I didn't know. And then shortly after that, I saw a news update and it had his face on the news update. And then that was when I was like, okay, it is the right skipper. How is this possible? And I just like, I crumpled. Because I had no idea that that was something that he was involved in.

Speaker 1:
[37:08] What's the first conversation with your kids look like after this? Because at some point, do you have the kids share with you that there was behaviors that they thought were bizarre? So, as a family, you're collectively working through the reality that your father is, or their father is not who he had presented himself as. And you were confronted with the realization that not only is he not the person that you thought you were married to, but also is involved in this hellacious story.

Speaker 2:
[37:44] Yeah. So, I remember going up to the bedroom where they were staying at my friend's house. And I don't remember how many of my kids were in that bedroom. I think it was just my oldest two or three. I think maybe the youngest ones might have already fallen asleep because it was pretty late, I think, when I got there. But the first conversation was, your dad did something really, really bad. And so, now he's going to have to be paying the consequences for that. I think that's about all that I said at that point. Because I was still like, in confusion and not knowing exactly what was going on. So, all I could offer them was that he did something really bad. And now, he's having to pay for it. And by really bad, at that point, the only thing I knew was that he kidnapped. I didn't know all the details of that kidnapping. You know, so, yeah, it was very confusing. That whole first, honestly, months, first few months were really confusing.

Speaker 1:
[39:00] I'm still thinking, too, of, you've been kept away from all the financial matters.

Speaker 2:
[39:08] Yeah, and I was not in charge of any of the responsibility of bringing in money to pay for all food and clothing and all that stuff. And I remember, I stayed at my parents' house for the first six months afterwards, trying to gather myself together and earn enough to be able to move out on our own. And I remember being up in that bedroom and on the bed, just like crying my eyes out, pleading with God, asking for guidance, asking him to somehow, I don't know how, because it doesn't make any sense for me to be able to have enough to feed these six children. I hadn't been in the workforce for a long, long time. So, and I was homeschooling my kids.

Speaker 1:
[40:03] Right.

Speaker 2:
[40:04] I did not want to stop homeschooling my kids. That's a very, very important thing for me. So, I had no clue how I was going to support all of us. I did not want to stay with my parents. Not because they're not amazing, they are amazing and they helped so much with, you know, attitudes with my kids because they were. I had become pretty much a great rock shell in my marriage. I was not taking care of my kids the way I should have. Mainly because I had been told if I did this, why are you doing it that way? And if I changed to do it the way I was told, then that's wrong too. So, no matter what I did, if I discipline them, oh, why are you disciplining them so badly? If I didn't discipline them, why aren't you disciplining? You know, no matter what I did, so I became this shell of a person and closed in on myself and was not taking care of the kids the way I should have. So they became wild children, you know, like fighting with each other and, you know. But when I went to my parents' house, it was like this break, and a break from that way of living to a more loving way of living. And my mom was so amazing with that, where I was on the bed crying out to God that He would provide some way for me to take care of my kids. And yeah, He did. He brought in, I was in another Bible study where one of the ladies in the Bible study said, hey, have you ever heard of the VIP kid? I'm like, no, what is that? And it was turned out, it was a English, like online teaching English to Chinese children. And at first, I was like, that's weird. Is that real? Sounds like a scam. But I signed up for it and did all the paperwork and the background checks and everything. And turns out it's a good thing I had a bachelor's degree because you had to have a bachelor's degree. And yeah, I worked for VIP kid teaching kids how to speak English for a really long time. And it worked perfectly with my homeschooling schedule because I, taught these Chinese children at the time when they were awake, which is completely the opposite of the time when my kids are awake. We made it work and my kids were amazing. They knew that when I was working in that early morning hours, they had to be quiet. So if they wanted to get up and do some schoolwork, they could. But they had to know that if they had any questions, they had to wait until I was done with my classes.

Speaker 1:
[42:57] I wonder too, I mean, kids are so wise, especially your oldest. I know you've said that she just always has been paying attention to things that other people don't necessarily pay attention to.

Speaker 2:
[43:10] Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
[43:11] I wonder if they, though you were probably so sleep deprived and working so hard, they were so proud of you and felt so connected to you because you were the best version of yourself. You had not been who you really were in your marriage to Chad.

Speaker 2:
[43:28] Oh yeah. Absolutely. Especially during the last eight years, I would say. I had become very closed off and not parenting them. And if you talk to them, they would agree. They would say, yeah, you were not yourself.

Speaker 1:
[43:44] What was it like hearing someone walk through his criminal activity and what he had done? How did you reconcile that with the person that you thought he was and you're a person of deep faith? So how did you manage to go through that?

Speaker 2:
[44:04] I mean, it was, I was blindsided. It really, really flipped my world around. And I know for a lot of people that will flip their trust in God to complete distrust of God, like, God, why did you do this to me? For me, it actually pulled me closer to God, because I actually could start seeing things that God had actually put in place in my life prior to all of this. That could not be coincidence. For instance, the house I'm living in now, Chad had completely demolished because he was changing it around. I think he was trying to make it into a duplex. So there was no flooring, there was no plumbing, the electricity was all messed up. Downstairs had walls but were not finished. It was shambles basically. So prior probably two years to any of this even starting to happen, that I knew of, God had brought into my life through my knitting community, people who knew how to drywall, people who knew how to hang a drop ceiling, people who knew how to plumb, people who knew how to do electricity, people who knew how to put on a new roof. That stuff, I mean, altogether, all of those things, that cannot be coincidence. Prior to that, I didn't know these people, but they were coming into my life. And then when they found out what had happened to me, they're like, hey, I know how to do this. Can I come help you do this?

Speaker 1:
[45:50] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[45:51] I had so many people come and paint. And, you know, I mean, just all the time, people were offering cash envelopes to me. My church offered, there were so many things that my church offered me. And things happened exactly when they needed to happen. Just little things. Like, one time, my kids, I know they didn't have any socks because all their socks were starting to get hold of them. And I did not have money to buy socks. You know, the IP kid paid well, but not enough to do anything outside of paying for food or, you know, we had food stamps, but still we had bills like, you know, our mortgage bill and our light bill. And, you know, all those normal things that people have to pay for. I didn't tell anybody that my kids need socks. All of a sudden, somebody shows up at my door with a bag full of socks. Hey, I don't need these socks anymore. Can you use them? I'm like, that had to have been God, you know?

Speaker 1:
[47:01] Well, I'm glad to hear that too, because I would assume, and maybe wrongly, that when something like this happens in a community, that there are questions like, how much did that, the wife must have known, and I was afraid that you would face some pushback from people, like not to be in support.

Speaker 2:
[47:24] Not verbally. There's never been a verbal, other than right after it happened, I noticed there were some like replies to a post. My sister did a GoFundMe for me, and under that GoFundMe post on Facebook, there were some people saying negative things about me, like, oh, she had a known, or she just didn't want to lose the life that she was living, or, you know, just really mean things about me. But face to face, I never got any kind of, oh, you knew. But there were non-verbal looks that I got, especially living in the same town. You know, it's a very small town. On the flip side, there's been so many people who have helped me, too, you know. But when you're walking through town or at the grocery store in town, and you look at somebody as you're passing them and smile at them, and they kind of avert their eyes, right? It's not normal in a small town to do that. In a small town, you usually, you know, at least wave and smile. So, there is that little bit of like, I don't think, I think they know who I am, and I don't think they want to associate with me at all.

Speaker 1:
[48:43] Now, his need to control still continues today, I'm sure. And he tried desperately to get your attention and to be in communication with you, and at one point, he either writes the letters to himself or has somebody else write them in the voice of an older woman from the South, trying to get your attention. We have been married to somebody so long, and there's the residual feelings of regret. How are you able to completely cut that off and disassociate yourself and to see yourself as somebody disconnected to him, having six children with him and being married for so long? Because I think a lot of people have been in maybe not the same situation, but they've been with a partner who does something, maybe it's criminal activity or maybe something like infidelity or something. And the process of which you see yourself as a person that's separate from that partner, as you move into a new chapter in your life, how were you able to do that?

Speaker 2:
[50:00] I read a ton of books on narcissistic and sociopathic and psychopathic behavior disorders. I listened to lots of podcasts. I actually had an Instagram page. It's not active at all anymore, but about a year after everything happened, I felt like I wanted to write, number one, get on paper or some form of writing down. The things that I felt were red flags that I completely ignored. A lot of it was based on my research about narcissism and the different things that most narcissists do. It's almost like a playbook. But if you're not aware of them, then you're blind to it, especially when you're in love with somebody and you don't want to see those things. Or you just think it's a quirk and not something that you should be worried about. I wrote down tons of different things like, if he does this, this, this, and this, he might be a narcissist. Then the next post would be, if he does this, this, and this, and this, he might be a narcissist. I would recommend if anybody's going through any of this, they could go to that page because there's a lot of good information on that page that I wrote down, not just the actual Instagram picture, but what's written underneath it because it was a lot of my processing through what I was going through.

Speaker 1:
[51:36] Tell us, what is it?

Speaker 2:
[51:38] It was called Hope for Abuse Survivors, but the four is like the number four.

Speaker 1:
[51:42] Yeah. Now, I remember you said to me that you had your own experience when you were a kid where police arrive at your house. There was like a robbery in proximity to your house. And in reflection of that, you thought about your own kids and what they went through.

Speaker 2:
[52:01] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:02] How have you worked through some of that with them?

Speaker 2:
[52:06] Honestly, talking about it. I feel like communicating about it. What was that like for you? This is what happened. What was your experience about that? My mom and dad, like I said, they come over every week. And lately, it's gotten really sparse when we talk about stuff. The Hulu episode brought a lot of stuff back up. We've been talking about it a lot again lately. But at first, for the first few years, every time we got together, we would rehash stuff like, okay, so this is what you've heard, this is what I heard, this is what I actually experienced, how does that mesh together? And my kids were always invited to be part of that conversation.

Speaker 1:
[52:54] Now, I remember too when I was listening, and then when I watched the episode, they began by kind of talking about Billy. And I thought, even before I knew what happened, I went, well, where's Billy? Like, what's going on with Billy? So where is Billy?

Speaker 2:
[53:10] So I'm living in Illinois. Billy's in California still. He's lived there his whole life. He's living his own life. We had connected over the years through Facebook. Like, if he made a post and I, it happened to come up in my feed, then I would say, you know, hey, you know, glad you're okay. Or if it was something rough that he was going through, I'd be like, anything I can pray for you about, you know, praying for you. So, it was kind of like a really sparse, every once in a while, we'd be in contact with each other. Let's see, about five years after I went through what I went through, he made a post and I'm super glad that it came up on my feed, because, you know, algorithms with faith, so it's weird. Sometimes you see things and sometimes you don't. But this one popped up in my feed and it was a post that he made. I don't remember the exact words, but the way he worded the post made me feel really concerned about him. Like, oh, he's really going through something really bad. I need to reach out to him. And so I messaged him through Messenger and asked, are you okay? Like, that post scared me. Are you, like, okay? And he messaged me back and he was telling me about the stuff he'd gone through. It was like, his dad had just died, his fiance just died, his dog just died. Everything was happening for him all the same time. And so, yeah, we started talking. He was still in California. And we were messaging each other through Messenger. And my daughter was like, my oldest daughter. She's like, who's this dude you're talking to a lot? I was like, oh, he's just an old friend, you know? But I think she was clued into, this is becoming more than just a friend now, because like I said, she's very aware. And I think she knew before I knew that I was starting to have feelings for him again.

Speaker 1:
[55:26] And so today, you're together.

Speaker 2:
[55:28] Today we're married.

Speaker 1:
[55:30] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[55:30] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[55:32] What advice do you have for people who may think, I'm overwhelmed in this moment, I don't know how I'm going to get out of this?

Speaker 2:
[55:42] I think they need to talk to somebody outside that abusive relationship.

Speaker 1:
[55:49] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[55:51] But do it in a safe way. And the reason why I say do it in a safe way is because I am 100 percent convinced that if I had said anything, if I had found out anything and had confronted him, I think I would not be here. And I think my kids wouldn't be there now knowing what he is. So I want people to be safe, but also to be able to get out if they need to. And I think the best way is to reach out to somebody, whether it be an abuse hotline, they could reach out to Betrayal podcast. Betrayal podcast has a really great resource. They want to hear your story. And with my story and with all the stories I've heard on Betrayal podcast, they are very sympathetic and are very careful with your story. But yeah, definitely talk to somebody. Don't keep it inside. Don't ignore all the red flags. I think that was one of my big mistakes is that I turned a blind eye to a red flag over and over and over again, instead of opening my eyes up to all those little hints that something was not quite right.

Speaker 1:
[57:09] Do you still find yourself looking back and running through things, or do you feel like you're at a place now where it doesn't consume you as much?

Speaker 2:
[57:18] It doesn't consume me as much, but I still do replay certain things. My husband is amazing at helping me through those things. Like one silly example is crunching, when you have a water bottle and you crunch it after you're done, throw it away. My ex used to do that all the time. And so that is a very big trigger for me, just hearing that sound. And at one point, Billy did that. He was drinking some water and he crunched his water bottle. And I immediately, my body just got tense and he noticed and he's like, I'm not going to do that anymore. And he started pouring his water into a glass and throwing away.

Speaker 1:
[58:10] Yeah, a small thing. But so kind that he said that, wow, I'm not going to do that anymore.

Speaker 2:
[58:15] And that he was aware.

Speaker 1:
[58:17] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:17] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[58:19] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:19] Wow. And there's things like that all the time, like little triggers that I have that are stupid. They shouldn't trigger me, but they do. And he immediately works through them with me and talks to me about them. And, you know, he's never blaming me for that trigger. He's always like, that idiot did that to you. Let's work through this. Let's get past it. And now whenever he drinks water, he comes up and gives me a kiss. You know, it's kind of like a reworking of that sound. That's a good sound now.

Speaker 1:
[58:52] I'm really glad all those people listened to you in your moment of real deep grief. And they all rose as a community to help you. The thought of a mother of six children having to work and live through a legal case, to put food on the table, and then to keep her kids happy and emotionally healthy on top of taking care of yourself, is enormous. And I'm really glad that they all rose to the occasion and helped you. And it reminds me of deep humanity. And I would assume that even in the darkest of days, you've seen a lot of light holders.

Speaker 2:
[59:38] Absolutely. I mean, yeah, going through this really brought up front to me how people can be so kind when they see somebody in pain. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:55] Well, I am so grateful for this conversation, for your time. Thank you for being so open about your life experience. And I really hope that you know that this is so helpful for other people. And there may be people that you will never meet on the street, who may never message you, but they listen to your story, and something shifted in their mindset. Yeah. And they got out of a painful situation, and now they are on the road to recovery, and it's because of your honesty.

Speaker 2:
[60:24] That would be amazing. That's one of my big hopes, that my story can help other people.

Speaker 1:
[60:29] Yeah. Well, thank you again.

Speaker 2:
[60:31] Thanks, Kate.

Speaker 1:
[60:39] I want to thank my great guest, Donielle, and remind you to make sure that you click Subscribe. Please leave a five-star review. Join the Facebook group, Reality Life with Kate Casey. You can get my weekly What to Watch list at katecasey.substack.com. And also make sure that you are subscribed to the bonus podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts and on Patreon. More behind-the-scenes stories, and I cover more outside of unscripted television. Finally, follow me on social media. I'm on Instagram at KKCCA, TikTok, It's Kate Casey, and Twitter threads and bluesky at KKC. Check back tomorrow for an all new episode.