transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:03] Girl, girl, what's going on, the world. What's happening, happening? I know the earth spins, but we feel extra spinning today.

Speaker 2:
[00:13] Yeah, not loving the vibes. I will say that, not loving the vibes. Well, let's get into it. I'm Saeed Jones.

Speaker 1:
[00:21] And I'm Zach Stafford, and you're listening to Vibe Check. Today's episode is going to be a bit heavy, and it needs to be. Because we were in our editorial meeting on Monday, and our dear Chantelle, who leads us here, she heard the kittens of Vibe Check. She brought, we feel like kittens all over the place sometimes, but she brought up something that was so important because we had not even clocked it ourselves as the host of the show. And Chantelle brought forth a bunch of news, articles and headlines this month in April, which April, if you aren't aware, is Sexual Assault Awareness Month, which I like to think of as Gender-Based Violence Awareness Month because a lot of sexual assault is tied to larger systems and forms of violence that can lead to lots of terrible paths for women specifically. So she brought forward these headlines that we had missed entirely of black women, black women who were mayors, black women who were major influencers, all have been killed this month, and no one's talking about it, and it's all by the hands of their partners, which is so, so tied to Sexual Assault Awareness Month because we know that sex-based violence is most of the times by an intimate partner. So today's episode, we want to hold space for what this month is all about, which is highlighting the real experiences of women and femmes in this country who are facing an epidemic of violence from men, and we want to say the names of women we've lost this month and talk about their stories, what happened to them, and what we think we can do to move forward with those issues that are at hand. And the story of David, the singer who I was not aware of until this week, but he is a famous singer, has huge records, the kids love him. He was finally charged with murder for killing his girlfriend just an hour after Chantel brought this up. So it is important. We're going to talk about it and it's going to be heavy, but we're going to get through it together. And then after that, some levity. Saeed has some fighting words for Vogue magazine. The week of The Devil Wears Prada 2 comes out.

Speaker 2:
[02:27] They had one job, they had one job not to embarrass Anne Hathaway and Meryl Streep. That's all they had to do.

Speaker 1:
[02:36] And they maybe failed at it on accident. It was so, it was so unforced. So if you have not seen the headlines, Vogue has deemed one of the summer haircuts of the year as the cloud bob, which is an afro.

Speaker 2:
[02:51] It's just, it's an afro. It's an afro.

Speaker 1:
[02:56] And the real gag, which then this is Saeed's sister girl, Tracy Ellis Ross was the picture. So that's what really sent the girls like, it's finally.

Speaker 2:
[03:04] Because you don't mess with her. Don't mess with her. Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[03:09] Saeed, I wish people could see this. Saeed is really stressed about this. So we will save the ammo for then, but also Saeed, Julia said to me afterwards, as we were talking about something else, she's like, isn't cloud the Pantone color of the year two? Two, girl, gentrification across the board.

Speaker 2:
[03:26] Shook. Oh no, that's why it feels so sinister.

Speaker 1:
[03:31] That's why people, I think that's why everyone's talking about it. So, anyway, well, before we get on to all of that, Saeed, how are you? I feel like you've been very busy at school this week. The children have been keeping you busy.

Speaker 2:
[03:42] Girl, these kids. They're not kids. They are students. Many of them are actually older than me. They're doctors. They're getting ready for their capstones, and they're stressed out, and I'm stressing out with them. But if you're listening, students, and I know a few of you are, the end is in sight. You're going to make it. It's going to be okay. One day, you will look back in this time with great fondness.

Speaker 1:
[04:12] I'm not a teacher, but I've been mentored by many teachers, and I remember I had a professor, Leila Farah, say to me that teaching was like a never-ending existential crisis because you yourself get older, and everyone else stays the same. She's talking about undergrad students, and she was also reflecting on how every year they go through the same emotional roller coaster. And she's like, I swear you will survive this. Like, I promise you it's going to be okay.

Speaker 2:
[04:34] And that's the, it's like, yeah, this is my second year teaching in this program at Harvard. And yeah, so I've seen the narrative art, right? And so I'm like, oh yeah, it's going to be fine. But you have to remind yourself that they don't have that perspective, you know, and of course, it's like these are Harvard students. They work their asses off. They're all type A's. They all, you know what I mean? But they're doing incredible work. And yes, so much of my teaching is often about working with them and being kinder to themselves actually, because they just want to be perfect at everything and that's just like not sustainable.

Speaker 1:
[05:11] So, ooh. My dad used to say, practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect persistence. And I used to live by that. And that's what Harvard people live by. And that is unhealthy. Y'all need to let it go. Perfection is not real. It's not a thing to strive for. We are humans. Give yourself grace.

Speaker 2:
[05:32] Well, how about you? What are you doing?

Speaker 1:
[05:34] You know, speaking of the children, I don't know if I told you this.

Speaker 2:
[05:38] Okay, wait. I see it in the notes, and I saw it in your Instagram story. And was very confused.

Speaker 1:
[05:46] I know. I'd love a shock and awe moment. You know, I love a surprise. Why is Zach at a gymnastic studio on a balancing beam doing cartwheels literally off the beam? Which, friends, that happened. That happened this weekend. So, over the weekend, you know, it was my partner Craig's birthday this month. And we couldn't celebrate on the day with a bunch of friends. And every April, I am shocked about how I have somehow become so close to so many Aries. Like, it is a problem. A lot of my closest people in my life are all Aries. And I forget about it until April hits, and I'm at a birthday party every single day. So, because we couldn't celebrate on Craig's actual birthday or to other friends' birthdays and other conflicts, I booked a tumbling gym this past Sunday and in afternoon. Because I love, like, a funny, nostalgic birthday. Like, Craig once threw me a movie theater birthday party where all my friends came and watched a movie. Still Magnolia is one of my favorite birthdays. So, he'd mentioned he wanted to do tumbling. I was like, why not do it with all of our friends? So, we invited most of our friends who also just had birthdays and did, like, a birth and Aries tumbling. And it was so fun. Saeed, let me tell you something. We are not spring chickens anymore. I am in so much pain. I think every person has left with an injury. I was like, are you still hurt? My right leg, I can barely bend it very well. It's been icing a lot and stretching. Craig's upper back is really sore. Everyone has a different body part that they've messed up. So, now I've realized that if I'm gonna do anything childlike for adults in the age range of 30 to 40s, I need to have icy packs, ice and all these other things. I was about to say your first and last tumbling party. Yes, ibuprofen, all these things. But we were at this gym here in LA. It's called Club Gymnastics. I highly recommend it to Angelina's locally owned. All run by women. We had a black woman running the class. It was such a fabulous time. But they were like, you guys are our second adult class ever. It's mostly just kids that do this. And they were like, we should do more adult classes because this is actually way more entertaining to see you guys on the... I did the... What's it called? The horse thing?

Speaker 2:
[07:58] Pommel horse?

Speaker 1:
[07:59] Yes, the pommel horse. I did that. Surprisingly good at it.

Speaker 2:
[08:02] I'm amazed that I even knew it was called.

Speaker 1:
[08:03] I was like, whoa. I was like, whoa. But what was interesting, Saeed, and I know you already know this, within minutes, I was like, I have such a respect for Simone Biles and every other woman because this shit is so hard. I did not know. You do not know until you try it. It is exhausting. Friends of mine who came with couldn't get through the warm up because they were so exhausted. Yeah, highly recommend it.

Speaker 2:
[08:29] For a while, it was during the Olympics, I guess because I was really into gymnastics at the Olympics. It was interesting seeing male gymnasts try to do the routines that women gymnasts do, and it was like beating their ass.

Speaker 1:
[08:42] It's so hard. Like the beam, so that beam is so high. Like everything is so much higher, and the gymnasts aren't very tall people. I'm like 5'11. The gymnast, if you think of X-Mobile's, I've stood next to her, I think she's 5. And I was seeing, like, I try to jump up, how she jumps up on things, I could barely do it. I was like, that little, little woman is a deep respect. So I will now be getting tickets to the 2020 Olympics in LA. I am now sold. They have now got me. I'm in it. Like, I had to try it to really understand it. Now I really understand this.

Speaker 2:
[09:16] You're locked in. I forgot that LA's, I think America forgot that we're hosting.

Speaker 1:
[09:21] We have to have the World Cup.

Speaker 2:
[09:23] Are we allowed?

Speaker 1:
[09:24] No, we shouldn't. They should reschedule all of this. This is a disaster in the matrix.

Speaker 2:
[09:28] Genuinely worried for athletes from other countries.

Speaker 1:
[09:31] Yeah, people, when Paris was about to happen and they were kind of not fully together, I thought, well, at least people could go have, like, a glass of wine, a steak free, hang out at the Eiffel Tower. What are they gonna do here? Sit in traffic? No, they should reschedule this whole thing.

Speaker 2:
[09:44] Yeah, it all just feels wrong.

Speaker 1:
[09:46] It's just somehow, by the grace of somebody, it's gonna happen, but I have little faith, but I have much faith in the women gymnasts and their tumbling routines, because I tried out some of those routines, and my God, that is so hard. And I feel it today.

Speaker 2:
[09:59] We salute you, Simone Biles, and the rest of you. Before we jump into the rest of the episode, we want to thank all of you who continue to listen to the show. Don't forget you can email us anytime at vibecheckatstitcher.com. And of course, a special shout out to those of you who have subscribed to our Patreon. If you want to join that group chat, you can find us at patreon.com/vibecheck. But for now, let's jump into this important conversation.

Speaker 1:
[10:23] Let's do it. All right, listeners, first up, as mentioned, we wanna spend some time reflecting on some headlines we don't think are getting enough attention this month. And you know, I have mentioned this in the past, but especially in my college years, I spent a lot of my time advocating around this month. I worked for a SAM group, which is Sexual Assault Awareness Month group, where we would do a lot of activations on campus. We'd make sure that everyone was talking about it. We made sure hotlines were passed out, resources were given, and so much information was readily available. But, and I was saying this slide earlier, it feels like since Trump's gotten back into office every month, Black History Month, Pride Month, everything, just feels so much quieter. But this month particularly feels quiet, and that quietness leads to feeling more dangerous to me. Saeed, you're on a college campus. Have you noticed any shifts at all at large with celebrating months in which we honor things like this? Or is it just something I'm feeling in my bubble here in LA?

Speaker 2:
[11:29] I've absolutely noticed it. Another university right down the road, Boston University, they're having an issue right now. Actually, a friend of the show, Joe, a professor there, they've been trying to get professors to take down pride flags in their offices. And professors are like, have y'all lost your minds? Yeah, I think in general, college campuses have become a target of this political moment. So absolutely, yeah. There feels like both like an institutional tamping down, and then also I think there's a chilling effect. And I think we see this maybe when we're thinking about this, when we think about this month and gender-based violence, like what you said, the quiet is a type of rhetoric as well. We know this violence is happening. But yeah, when we aren't made to feel that we can speak out about gender-based violence, then we're also contributing to an atmosphere in which it happens more frequently.

Speaker 1:
[12:25] Yeah, I agree so much. And you saying that actually reminds me of something I did not even put in the notes, which highlights even the point more, which is, you know, we're preparing to have this conversation which we're sitting around black women, and we're about to read their names and their stories, and women of color generally, because one of these victims is sadly also a woman of color, but not black-identified. But in the past week, you know, we've seen Eric Swalwell, who was running for governor of California, and was once a presidential hopeful, you know, stepped down from Congress, the race, because of multiple allegations that are very credible. So many, and what really shook me about them. And I've gotten to interview him before, and I've always thought he was, I was like, why is this man, who is this person? Why is this white man being allowed to be given all these opportunities? He's not really giving us much here. He's just kind of like vaguely fine. Like it's like whatever. Not fine as an attractive, but he's fine. Like he passes the bar of like what you would cast. He's very, what we say, central casting politician. It's like, yes, you would be someone that's like background character in a movie.

Speaker 2:
[13:31] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[13:32] These allegations were all, you know, post me too. These were in an environment in which we were allegedly canceling men, men were so afraid.

Speaker 2:
[13:42] And like, he's a pretty high profile, you know?

Speaker 1:
[13:44] So high profile.

Speaker 2:
[13:45] Because I think, you know, by the time someone becomes senator or, you know, certainly it's like running for governor, I think you kind of assume that whatever skeletons are in someone's closet would have already come out. Yeah. So I think it, yeah, it's really disturbing because you go, wow, how long did he get away with this? How long was he going to get away with this?

Speaker 1:
[14:06] And was willing to become governor knowing very recently he was in some of the tricky situations that are violence, that are illegal, that are criminal. They're being investigated by multiple cities currently. And when that news broke, one of the first videos I saw was of his wife campaigning for him and the children. And I thought, this man did all this with two kids and a wife at home, and he thought he could be president one day. So think about what people who aren't running for president are doing, if you guys want to understand the gravity of the situation in America. So, speaking of gravity, let's start with one of the more famous cases that I was unaware of until news broke right after our editorial meeting. This news involves singer David, and this really sickens me to say this, but the singer's most famous song when I began doing research, is a song called Romantic Homicide.

Speaker 2:
[14:55] What? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[14:57] And Saeed and I both are not very aware of this man, but as we begin...

Speaker 2:
[15:00] Sorry, this is me learning in real time.

Speaker 1:
[15:02] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[15:03] Huh? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[15:04] And Saeed, this song came out after the young woman, Celeste... Actually, not young woman. Let me be very specific. Young girl. She's 14 years old. Celeste Rivas Hernandez, his girlfriend. He is an adult, a young adult, but an adult.

Speaker 2:
[15:21] Wait, wait, wait. He was dating a... Yeah. Is he a teenager?

Speaker 1:
[15:27] He is not a teenager. He's 21 years old. And at her time of death, she was 14. So they had known each other for a minute. And he'd written a few songs about this young girl, young girl, everybody.

Speaker 2:
[15:40] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[15:40] But he wrote a song called Romantic Homicide. And the internet, because she did disappear, assumed that his music was Easter eggs for what happened to her. And they've been pushing the police to do something for over seven months, actually. So getting close to a year. Nothing had happened, nothing had happened. And then recently, they found her body, sadly, in the trunk of his Tesla. And it had been sitting there since he had murdered her. And it does appear that his songs were the Easter eggs to what had happened to her. And he had done all of this stuff to her to help cover for his music career and ensuring that he could be successful and keep going on. And when he got away with it, he just kept making music. And now we're in the situation where he's charged with first degree murder here in California. And we'll have the book thrown at him, and it's becoming a very high profile case. But at the core of it, Saeed, it really embodies a lot of things we're hearing people talk a lot about. She's a child. Child trafficking is a huge topic. I don't even want to say dating him because she's a child. You can't say that.

Speaker 2:
[16:43] You don't date a 14 year old.

Speaker 1:
[16:44] You don't date. But how people on the internet are perceiving it, teenagers, or this is a romantic relationship, what happened, and we know as adults, this is not a romantic relationship. This is predator shit. But you did not know any of this information. Hearing that, Saeed, what are reactions? Because I know you, and while this is shocking, this is not a new story, right? You've heard versions of this before.

Speaker 2:
[17:09] I mean, yeah, because it's two types of violence, right? I mean, it's the violence of being in a sexual relationship with a 14-year-old. The reason I said that's a 9th grader. When I taught high school, my 9th graders were 14 years old. So, you know, not that being a senior in high school would be any better, but I mean, I just want to be very clear to people. He was dating, he wasn't dating, excuse me. He was in a sexual relationship with a child. So that's already...

Speaker 1:
[17:41] And to be more specific, when she disappeared, I believe she was still in middle school technically. Like, it was, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[17:48] Bro!

Speaker 1:
[17:49] Yeah. Yeah. What? It's pretty, like, eighth grade, yeah. So she hadn't even gotten...

Speaker 2:
[17:53] And this man wasn't already in jail?

Speaker 1:
[17:55] Listen, we said this in our conversation about Usher, everybody. That's why we brought it up, and R. Kelly, and everyone else. The way in which we let famous people in the culture get away. Aaliyah was singing the song, age ain't nothing but a number, and was not much older than this young girl. To R. Kelly. Like, Destiny Child singing, bills, bills, bills, 15, a year older.

Speaker 2:
[18:19] Oh, speaking of, because we talked about Usher recently, do you know who he's touring with right now?

Speaker 1:
[18:26] Say it, it's perfect for this.

Speaker 2:
[18:27] Chris Brown.

Speaker 1:
[18:29] Chris Brown. Another abuser.

Speaker 2:
[18:30] I was like, if we had any doubt about, y'all can go back and listen to that conversation, whatever it was, a couple of weeks ago. But I was like, well, there we go.

Speaker 1:
[18:39] And Saeed announced in April during this month. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so this David's story, we're gonna be tracking very closely now as he faces this murder trial. But all the details already. I don't believe in prisons, but I might build the prison and put him under it right now. This guy David, like this really challenges my ethical course around prison incarceration because this is horrible.

Speaker 2:
[19:06] I do believe in prisons and I think he needs to be in one. No, this is, I mean, just, I mean, her family, I mean, they've been grieving her for almost a year. I mean, it's just...

Speaker 1:
[19:20] It's horrifying.

Speaker 2:
[19:21] Oh my God. I keep, I'm still processing this, but...

Speaker 1:
[19:25] Well, let's, yeah, so there's another person too. So the next person I'm gonna bring up, I remember this woman's name, and I have not heard that she passed away. And her name is Nancy Meteor Bowen. She came to be known because she's the vice mayor of Coral Springs, Florida. But what's very important about her is that she was the first black woman and first Haitian American woman ever elected to the Coral Springs City Commission, which isn't a big city, but it's important in Florida. But what that allowed her to become was Kamala Harris tapped her to lead the Caribbean voter outreach in Florida. As we know, during the last presidential cycle, voters in Florida were incredibly important, incredibly, incredibly important, especially immigrant community voters who did swing right and gave the election to Donald Trump. And there were whispers that she was going to run for Congress in Florida. Again, a place where she as a Democrat was to win would be hugely positive for the Democratic Party. On April 1st, the first day of this month, her husband shot her in their home. He wrapped her body in blankets and garbage bags and then went to his uncle's house and said he couldn't take it anymore and then disclosed what he had done. So he killed her in a fit of rage and then told someone and now is facing the consequences. Saeed, again, she is a famous person in her community. She was a leader and still that didn't protect her. I think a lot of people look to celebrities sometime and they're like, there's no way they're going through what I'm going through. Yet we always hear stories like this and then these awful outcomes from what happens. What do you make of her story if someone that was on such an incredible path that was maybe going to be so helpful for all of us politically?

Speaker 2:
[20:58] I mean, it's heartbreaking. Yeah, when you begin to hear these women and girls' stories alongside each other, it just underscores this is systemic violence. And so it's like these women were killed by the men in their lives, but also these women were killed by their country. They were killed by the culture they lived in. And I mean, you can't be a 14-year-old, you can't be a politician. You know what I mean? Nowhere is safe. You know, and I was saying before we started recording, I got to see the papers of the feminist writer and editor Barbara Smith here at Harvard a couple of months ago. And in her papers, there are posters that said stop killing black women, stop killing women, you know? And this was a consistent outrage of Barbara Smith. So, you know, protesting this. And so it's striking that in 2026, it's like, God, if Barbara Smith was here, she would be heartbroken to know that women still aren't safe in this country, especially black women.

Speaker 1:
[22:12] It's terrible. And to kind of couple with what you just said from Barbara Smith, I have some data that really brings that home. You know, black women on average are murdered six times higher than their white peers. So six times higher than white women. Homicide rates for black women did decline between 1999 to 2013, but then they saw a sharp increase between 2013 and 2020. And then in 2020, they increased by 33%. So all of this is happening again. Me too. Barack Obama's president. The moments in which we thought liberalism was winning, progressive, we were celebrating these months. All of this was happening even faster and harder and more violently. Also, what overlays this is black trans women's murder rates skyrocket at this time. And that wasn't because they just suddenly started happening. It's because we were paying attention to them. And they also mirrored the same pattern. So whether you're a black trans femme or black cis sister woman, violence is only increasing for you in this country. And we only continue to focus on the white women impacted by it.

Speaker 2:
[23:15] It's striking, too, because what's interesting is that cis women's identity is being weaponized by conservative politicians across the country, who say they're trying to protect women and girls from trans people. When it's like, it's not the trans people that they need to worry about. It's their partners. It's the men. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it makes that all the more cruel.

Speaker 1:
[23:38] Into that same politic, not to be hyperbolic here, but the conservative party has run in one off this idea that women are under attack. We must protect young white girls. We must protect white women, womanhood. And yet they did all of that in the face of a black woman running for president who has been running everything, whether you like her or not. Vice President Kamala Harris has been categorically right time after time after time of everything she predicted that this man would do within the first year. And now with all of this information about what she has navigated, her time on this earth around the black woman, around violence and men, and still even at the doorstep of the White House as the vice president, she was being told, oh, white women need our help more than you is just appalling. Appalling to hear. Appalling. So to end this, I will give space for one white woman to speak. And I love this white woman, Charlize Theron. She hit after hit after hit. Every time she interviews, I swear she has done the work. And you know Charlize is from South.

Speaker 2:
[24:39] Oh, right. Cause she talked about her father.

Speaker 1:
[24:41] Yes. So I want to bring this up. This week, she is promoting a new movie that's out this week, I think Apex. And Charlize is one of our biggest stars on the planet. You know, she A-listed through and through Academy Award winner. And she is a huge activist from the country of South Africa. She is South African. She's very aware of her whiteness within the South African context. She has an HIV AIDS foundation, which I've worked with. It's a really fabulous organization, but she was interviewed in the New York Times talking about her own story, where when she was 15, her mother had to hold the door of her bedroom closed. They both had to. As her father shot through the door while drunk, trying to kill both of them, with his brother standing by his side, helping him. Yep. Helping him try to kill his child and wife. The mom got free from around the door and killed him. She never faced charges. And then Charlize became Charlize Theron and has never batted an eye about that moment. And she's like, listen, what happened to me? Crazy. This happens to women every day around the world. And it's even sadder that it happens in the United States of America every day. And no one seems to care at all. And she's like, and no one cared about my mother. Even afterwards, no one came to care for her because what happened to her. So Saeed, Charlize Theron, A-lister. She's like, I experienced this and yet no one cares anymore. How do we all live with that? Living in a world where the women we love, women we look up to, Charlize Theron, even herself is like, people don't care the gender-based violence I'm going through, especially when it comes for men.

Speaker 2:
[26:07] Yeah, I mean, it has to be an incredibly painful time to be a survivor of gender-based violence when the president of the United States is a rapist. Pete Hegseth, I believe, is, you know, he's been accused. Literally just like the cabinet is just littered with violent, proudly violent men. And what does that say about the culture? We know what it means politically, but it also sends a cultural message to abusers as well. And survivors. And it's just, this is so banal. Like, and then that's what, that's what Charlize Theron is being like. We know about her because she's a famous white woman, right? And she's famous enough for her situation and her mother's situation to register with us, right? But she's absolutely right. I mean, it's, it's, it's banal. I mean, we know, like, for sexual violence, it's one in four people. So I'm always, I'm like, if you're sitting at a table with four people, you're sitting at a table with someone who survived that type of violence, right? What I do think we're reluctant to admit though, is that we also know rapists.

Speaker 1:
[27:27] Yes. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[27:28] You know what I mean? Like, it's like, we're barely able to acknowledge that survivors are amongst us, but I think we're not even willing to have a conversation to say, well, what about the other three people? You know what I mean? And we all have a part in that, you know? And culturally, you know what I mean? And I really think it's something, it's a conversation we need to have, because I think sometimes when we talk about sexual assault or gender-based violence, it's like we're only talking to the survivors. You know what I mean? Which is necessary. But I'm like, well, yeah, but also these people who are hurting other people, you know, need to heal this well, because until they, you know what I mean? Like this David Young man clearly was a trouble, an incredibly troubled person.

Speaker 1:
[28:20] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[28:21] And now, you know, now this young woman's life is gone.

Speaker 1:
[28:24] Yeah. I think what you said is so important to the fact of we only talk to the survivors. And that has to stop, because if we're only talking to the survivors, the violence is already done. We're already too late. Now we're, you know, now we're just treating something, the pain, the bullet hole. And we do maybe need to live in a world where we look at the young boys around us and think they could. And instead, we live in a world, Charlize Theron talks about this interview. She, A-lister, says, every time I go into a parking garage, I get scared, I'm worried. And I'm like, that's not okay. Maybe we need to live in a world where we're like, we look at young boys and say, I'm scared what you're about to become. And we start working from that space.

Speaker 2:
[29:07] I mean, you and I did, we watched that Manosphere documentary recently, right? And the fans of those men were boys. They were like 13 and 14 year old fans. And it's scary. You know, so yeah, I don't, I mean, you know, when it comes to LGBTQ rights, I feel that there is a sense of actual progress. But when it comes to gender based violence, oh honey, it is, we are going backwards. You know what I mean? Like it's really, really scary. And all of it is of course connected. I'm glad that Charlize Theron used the platform she has to connect the dots, you know, but we have to do this too.

Speaker 1:
[29:55] We do, we do. Well, listeners, let's take a quick break there. Take a quick breath, but don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. And this next part will be quite fun. I promise you, so don't go anywhere.

Speaker 2:
[30:20] All right, let's change things up. Let's change things up. We're going to rant, basically. We're gonna talk about Vogue Magazine and that damn article about Cloud Bobs, or as Zach and I call them, Afros. Friend of the show, Anna Gifty, brought this to my attention, I'm glad she did. If you don't know, so it was an article on vogue.com that has since deleted, they've deleted the actual photo they were using of the actor and model Tracy Ellis Ross with her Afro. And did you see this too? The hairstylist that's quoted in the article had to put out a statement.

Speaker 1:
[30:59] No, wait, I didn't see that.

Speaker 2:
[31:00] Yeah, did you not see that?

Speaker 1:
[31:02] No.

Speaker 2:
[31:04] Baby, his name's Tom Smith. He went to Instagram. He said, they did not interview me. They did not use, they did not ask for my permission.

Speaker 1:
[31:16] Oh, he said, I caught her stray and I didn't even know I was standing there.

Speaker 2:
[31:20] He hit the Vogue on me out to dry.

Speaker 1:
[31:23] That is, wow.

Speaker 2:
[31:24] And it's wild, because he's quoted in the article.

Speaker 1:
[31:28] That is crazy. I did not see that.

Speaker 2:
[31:30] Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
[31:30] I feel like I saw this in passing, and by the time I got to it, which we can get into how the mechanics of this, I think I saw the end of the wave, because I went to the article and it was gone. And you were like, what's happening? Like, what Cloudbob? Where are we at? So yeah, they had already begun backtracking the whole thing. So, no.

Speaker 2:
[31:52] I mean, the thing is, Vogue has such a racist history. It's almost laughable that this is registering, because I'm like, well, I remember when they had LeBron James, you know, posing like an ape on the cover.

Speaker 1:
[32:10] Giselle, Bündchen, oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[32:13] And that was what, when I was in college. So that would have been like 2008. Gosh. But this is just, I mean, first of all, if white people need to understand anything, it's respect Tracy Ellis Ross.

Speaker 1:
[32:27] That period. The daughter of Diana Ross.

Speaker 2:
[32:31] If y'all do anything, what you're going to do is respect Tracy Ellis Ross.

Speaker 1:
[32:39] I just, I don't even want to get into like the psychology of how this happened, because I can imagine actually how it happened very easily. I just, I think the larger trend that is really the problem here is how black trends do get gentrified by fashion houses or fashion magazines so breathlessly. And I think beyond it being racist or not racist, it's just bad history. Like we're not talking about like kind of-

Speaker 2:
[33:09] It's inaccurate.

Speaker 1:
[33:10] It's inaccurate. Like this Bob doesn't come out of nowhere. We didn't just like randomly figure out how to create a cloud, which also it's not a cloud. Like this is just like, it's just kind of-

Speaker 2:
[33:20] I mean, that's what, when I first, when Anna Gifty was posting it, I was like, when did Google cloud pop? Because maybe I'm not, I was so confused. And then when you search literally, it's Bob. It's a light, it's a Bob, but like a little, it's got a little air to it. A loose Bob. It is not an Afro.

Speaker 1:
[33:44] It's not an Afro, no. So when they did it for Tracy, it was like, you guys can have a Bob. We would have given you the Bob. The Bob is sickening.

Speaker 2:
[33:53] And Tracy Ellis Ross is beautiful. Who wouldn't want to use her picture?

Speaker 1:
[33:57] And Tracy has had Bob's before. The girl is a style which black women can have a Bob. Kelly Rowland, an angel on this earth. Lives for Bob. Lives for a sickening Bob. But she had an Afro. That is an Afro. What are we doing here?

Speaker 2:
[34:13] And I think the thing too that is, how do I say this? I will never believe white people don't know what Afros are. Because when they want to mock us, one of the first things they do is put on an Afro. Like, it's literally, there's no way you don't know what an Afro is.

Speaker 1:
[34:36] Also, white people have a deep resitment around black hairstyles and what they can and cannot do. Bo Derek, when she was photographed in the 80s with those damn braids, set every white girl into a tizzy because she was like, I now can go to Jamaica and get my hair done like Bo Derek. And that's okay now. So now they've all been in this battle and Kim Kardashian's really, you know, inflamed it where it's like, well, if I do a box braid, is that the same as the braid that the black person gets? And so they're always trying to find ways to braid their hair that isn't racist.

Speaker 2:
[35:08] And look, and this is like the work we do. I just Googled the writer of the article because I was like, is she, no, of course she's a white woman. Hasley has a crown bob herself.

Speaker 1:
[35:21] It's just, wait, Julia just said, there's someone else too that did it. What's this? Marie Claire did it.

Speaker 2:
[35:27] Where is it going?

Speaker 1:
[35:29] So they all just stole it from each other. This began in 2025.

Speaker 2:
[35:34] It looks like AI.

Speaker 1:
[35:36] I think this is AI. I know what this conversation is about, AI.

Speaker 2:
[35:40] Because that's why the Stylist said he was like, I wasn't interested for this article.

Speaker 1:
[35:44] Wait, this is all AI generated, all of this. That is, this makes so much sense. Oh my, they're all using AI to generate these articles. And that's how it just kept, because AI does it, I mean, people call it hallucination. They're fucking wrong. It's wrong. It's wrong, period. Like it made a mistake and then it keeps building on the mistake.

Speaker 2:
[36:08] I'm sure bad at recognizing black people.

Speaker 1:
[36:11] It doesn't know. It's like, oh, that's a cloud. It just sees the shape.

Speaker 2:
[36:14] Wait, did we just break news? We just break news.

Speaker 1:
[36:16] They're using, this is ChatGPT.

Speaker 2:
[36:20] That makes so much, because even the, I mean, granted it's been a minute since I've read Vogue, but I was reading the article and I was like, this just...

Speaker 1:
[36:29] Like, how did y'all do this? So like, it's AI, wow, that's so, this is fun. And this, friends, is why we need humans involved, because this is, like...

Speaker 2:
[36:41] I told y'all.

Speaker 1:
[36:44] Because like, it is, because there's like, there's two things. Like, if we think of this as an AI thing, I 1,000% see how this scaled too, because it, you know, it scrapes the internet, it looks at everything, says it's true just based off what it's finding, and then builds these articles off of that. So it's like, sure. I think one person probably built an article using AI and then the rest just stole from it and didn't fact check anything and they're just moving fast. But the larger issue of the gentrifying of black style and renaming it things is ongoing. I mean, even the verbiage be used. Like right now, the kids are saying, you're the birthday. Do you know you're the birthday? Have you heard this phrase? So that's the new thing Jennifer says. So like, you're the birthday has a variety of meanings, but it's like the phrase you're about to hear everywhere. But it's like, Saeed, if you're like, like if you're doing too much or if it's all about you, I'd be like, oh, it's like you the birthday. And there's like all these variations of it. Like that's what the kids are saying.

Speaker 2:
[37:36] Is it a compliment?

Speaker 1:
[37:37] It can be, it can be a read, it can be so many things. It's actually quite fun. People look on whatever platform you're on, look up you're the birthday and look at all the videos, but it's coming from like a black sensibility, like most slang does. But eventually when we even like clock, clock that T, clock. That's all like black people. I think black deaf people created that because eight, this is how you say eight in ASL, is through putting your middle finger on your thumb. And that, the number eight, sounds like the word eight, and that means to leave no crumbs, you ate it up. And that comes from black people. And now all these white people will be like, oh, eight, T, clock. And it's like, that's also from black culture.

Speaker 2:
[38:15] I'll never forget watching, I don't know why I was watching ESPN, watching sports with somebody, and listen to the sports commentator talk about shade. I was like, now wait a damn.

Speaker 1:
[38:26] My show, Ladies of London, these English people, white people, with one black girl in it, were like, oh, I love T. I said, well girl, I know you love T, but you don't love that T. Like this is a different type of T. The aristocracy doesn't know how to spill T. You know how to like build empire, stealing T, but you don't know how to spill it. Like spilling is American tradition out of Boston. So anyway, it just like, white people remix and take things. It gets very frustrating. And another thing that I've seen Vogue do lately.

Speaker 2:
[38:53] Well, also, yeah, because it's a historic, right? Yes, it's just factual. They could just do an article celebrating the beauty of Afros, but they're not going to center black women in that way, right?

Speaker 1:
[39:04] That's all they have to do. It's like, look at all the hairstyles referencing black hairs. But then they're afraid they'd be called racist or whatever. It's same with, you know, this week has been 420. So this is very tangential. And, you know, when you look at even like the incarceration rates of people who are in prison for weed possession, and the way in which we look at who's in prison today for weed possession, and then who owns weed businesses, and the race of that, stark, depressing. Black people are serving huge sentences, while white people are becoming, we're just so rich off of it.

Speaker 2:
[39:37] It's wild that people are still in prison for weed possession.

Speaker 1:
[39:40] So it's like, we see it and it becomes violent. So we, you know, the hair thing is a funny joke, and you know, it's like, and hair can become very violent, but it's just like annoying when we see how white people take things from black people and it becomes scalable. It becomes like, even like Blakely Thornton, who's been on the show, posted something, which I actually think is right, and I'll say it on the show. He posted that GQ, a sister of Vogue, referenced that he launched the phrase, slutty little glasses. And he did. Like, you know, have you seen every celebrity wear slutty, so Blakely is one of the coins, slutty little glasses and launched a glassware brand that's called slutty little glasses. So there's all these articles that always reference Blakely and that phrase and Blakely's been on our show, we've talked about it, et cetera. Blakely's never been given a Time magazine feature, never been given any treatment like the white girls get, like Alex Earl and Alex Cooper, like, look at this influencer, changing culture, et cetera, et cetera. So he just posted this week saying, if I was white, not only would there be a feature about how I've changed all these things in Hollywood, but I'd have venture capitalists lining up to give me money. And I will say, not to be messy, because I sit at the intersection of all these, I do see white influencers get those articles, get the money, get the businesses like that, so fast. And the black ones do not at all. And they're the ones actually shaping the culture and reap none of the benefits. So again, Cloudbob, girl, have it. Have it for your white girl summer. But the fact that black women created the aesthetic, the sensibility, and you're just erasing them, and that's Vogue is now paying some hairstylists to do it. Like it just is crazy.

Speaker 2:
[41:10] Yeah. And the irony is, you know, they can't have Afros.

Speaker 1:
[41:15] It's called Afros for a reason.

Speaker 2:
[41:16] Y'all get everything else, but you can't have this.

Speaker 1:
[41:20] Insane. Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[41:25] This is, I mean, the moment we realized it was AI, we'll stay with it for some time. This is just AI.

Speaker 1:
[41:30] I think they're using AI and y'all got clocks.

Speaker 2:
[41:33] Y'all got got.

Speaker 1:
[41:34] And you didn't eat that. There are crumbs all over this. Like that was, that took us like two seconds of actually looking at it and being like, Oh yeah, AI girl. Got it.

Speaker 2:
[41:42] Well, we cracked the case. We're gonna take another break, but Don't Go Anywhere will be right back. All right, we're back, and before we end the show, we talk about other aspects of culture in which the vibes are on and off. And then I read a poem, Zach, get us started. And I guess you're gonna break some news, cause you didn't know this. Can we start with your vibes being off?

Speaker 1:
[42:15] I love that you live in a very different part of the internet than me. It is refreshing. It makes me feel...

Speaker 2:
[42:19] Those are different people.

Speaker 1:
[42:21] These are different people. They're not even very different people, because that's the problem right now. So my vibes are off are with Alex Cooper, host of Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 2:
[42:30] Oh, the Call Her Daddy. Okay, I know.

Speaker 1:
[42:32] Yes, she's Call Her Daddy Podcast, Empire Builder, fellow SiriusXM. Alex Earl was also a podcaster within the Call Her Daddy universe. Left is a huge influencer, I think like has a soda brand, has all this other stuff.

Speaker 2:
[42:47] Oh, so that's kind of why I'm getting a little confused.

Speaker 1:
[42:50] They had joined forces for good, and now they've separated. And now they are warring in public, because Alex Earl keeps sub-tweeting her and reposting things. So Alex Cooper got, that's the thing, we don't know yet. Alex Cooper got on her Instagram and posted a video and said, Alex Earl, I see the likes, I see the reshares. Say to my face, you're not under NDA. Tell the girls, spill the tea. Why are we fighting? Cause I don't know, I'm not afraid. Which I love the gesture. Like someone's talking shit about you, call them out. Call them to the table, call them in. That's Darn No More used to tell me. I love that. But something is off with this. I'm feeling, it's feeling marketing scheme. There feels like something else. Like I think they're about to announce a brand deal. So I don't trust this and people become so enraptured with it. There's also this loss of internet allegations.

Speaker 2:
[43:44] So it's a whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[43:45] It's like a whole thing. People think they're a side.

Speaker 2:
[43:47] We do live on different sides of the internet.

Speaker 1:
[43:49] It's a huge, huge thing for white people on the internet. Alex Earl allegedly is maybe MAGA, maybe not. We know she has allegations of being racist in the past. We don't know. No one can figure it out.

Speaker 2:
[43:59] I would say I do not like how she spells her name.

Speaker 1:
[44:01] I know. There's something off there. And then Alex Hooper, of course, had Kamala Harris on her show during the campaign, but not Trump and got a lot of backlash. So anyway, they're positioned as the same person, but one's maybe far right, one's far left, and they're out more. Anyway, they become avatars for our political moment. And the whole thing, off, off, off, off. Don't like it. But the vibes are on with the podcast, The Idiot by M. Gessen. M. Gessen, if you're not familiar. Journalist from Russia. Fellow queer person.

Speaker 2:
[44:35] Who has the best rings? Have you ever seen the rings M wears? Just the coolest jewelry.

Speaker 1:
[44:40] No, I haven't noticed. Well, M is a legendary reporter, has focused on LGBTQ rights, began in Russia, came to great fame in journalism in Russia, and has written for The New Yorker, is now at The New York Times, and is now doing opinion work. And I love this pivot. Typically, I don't love a, you know, pollster level journalist doing opinion journalism all the time. I'm like, oh, your reporting was so good. But they're able to mix their investigative chops with a point of view that is so needed right now. And they've turned their gaze onto their own family. And they've released a five-part series about their cousin, a straight guy who married a black woman from Zimbabwe, a Russian married a Zimbabwe woman, and kidnapped their children, and then was arrested for trying to have her killed, and lied about it. And M. Gesson interviews their cousin in prison, and it's the story of how this person is such an idiot that they thought they could get away with trying to have their wife murdered, the mother of their children. And so M. Gesson is like, fuck family. This is bullshit. I'm supporting this woman who is an immigrant, who's dealing with all these things, and goes to great lengths to ensure justice is served against M's own cousin, who's a white man that will remind you of so many people in DC right now. It is an incredible five-part series of people who face the most brutality from men in this world, fighting back in the most beautiful ways within the systems in which we live. So I highly, highly recommend, especially this month of April, if you want a story that will inspire you and see how people can work within systems to maybe seek some resemblance of justice and also find out about how women can be also your biggest enemies within these moments, because Em's aunt is a villain in this in ways that is racy when you listen to this.

Speaker 2:
[46:27] Okay. I'm shook. I'm gonna have to listen to that.

Speaker 1:
[46:31] Saeed, what about you?

Speaker 2:
[46:32] Well, I have strong opinions about Drag Race. We don't talk about it on the show very often. I will say the vibes are on with this year's Miss Congeniality. This season, there's so many seasons in a damn year.

Speaker 1:
[46:48] It's like 18.

Speaker 2:
[46:49] This season's Miss Congeniality, Jane Don't. I'm obsessed with her. I think she should have won the season. I'm just gonna be honest. Very happy for Mikey Meeks, but Jane Don't, she's one of one.

Speaker 1:
[47:01] Jane Don't is a great name. Jane Don't.

Speaker 2:
[47:04] It's just a brilliant name. She's so funny. You're gonna be obsessed with her. I'll send you some clips. And the vibes are off with Drag Race because they kicked Jane Don't off before the final four. It's just, it blew my mind. She was clearly going to win this damn season and they eliminated her. And I just, I'll never forgive RuPaul for it. I, Ru, I think you're a bad person, actually.

Speaker 1:
[47:30] Ru knows you think that from that review in the New York Times. Ru does, right? I was at an event with Ru the other day and I had met Ru before that review and I haven't talked to Ru since that review and I'm always like, will Ru remember my connection to Saeed Jones? I'm like, I really hope amnesia is real at this moment.

Speaker 2:
[47:53] He won't. He will not forget it. Because he's a triple scorpion.

Speaker 1:
[47:57] Oh, exactly. Triple scorpions do not forget. And we were sitting right in front of each other and I was like, I feel like you're glaring at me, but I...

Speaker 2:
[48:06] He is glaring at you.

Speaker 1:
[48:07] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[48:07] Listeners, if you're not familiar with this part of the lore, The New York Times asked me to review RuPaul's memoir a couple of years ago. I was like, oh, sure. So excited to read it. You know, delighted. I thought it was going to be a fun time. I did not have a fun time.

Speaker 1:
[48:27] You really didn't have fun.

Speaker 2:
[48:29] I was miserable. It was one of the... And I'll be perfectly honest, because now... Oh, well, now I have a podcast, so I can say, literally one of the worst reading experiences I've had in years.

Speaker 1:
[48:44] Oh, God.

Speaker 2:
[48:47] Oh, how I hated that book. Oh, how I hated reading that book. And it's long. And of course, you have to read the whole book, because you're like, well, maybe at the last minute. Did I tell you the thing that drove me crazy about the damn book? It ends, like...

Speaker 1:
[49:05] Oh, I know how it ends.

Speaker 2:
[49:07] Yeah, he meets the man who becomes his husband.

Speaker 1:
[49:10] I know.

Speaker 2:
[49:11] And he's like head over heels. And then he finds out his husband is doing meth and has been hiding drugs like all over the house.

Speaker 1:
[49:20] In their other home, like been like off on his own and in a meth den of his own working, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[49:26] And then he's like, and so my husband goes to rehab. And then it just ends.

Speaker 1:
[49:29] It just ends, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[49:30] It doesn't even, you don't see them get back together. And also, it's really early in Ru's career. Like it's, the song is just, You Better Work has come out. So it's, there's no drag race. Also, Michelle Visage.

Speaker 1:
[49:47] Gone. Madonna shows up for two seconds.

Speaker 2:
[49:50] She's in there for two.

Speaker 1:
[49:51] Literally, she's working co-check.

Speaker 2:
[49:52] And Liza Minnelli.

Speaker 1:
[49:53] Yeah, Madonna's, god.

Speaker 2:
[49:54] They both are in there for each one sentence. Anyway, RuPaul, I don't like you. I forgot what we were talking about.

Speaker 1:
[50:01] This is why we don't talk about drag race on the show. Because we just go on and on. We're not a drag race podcast. That's a different part of the internet. You guys can go there.

Speaker 2:
[50:09] It's trauma. Chantel's like, please shut up. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[50:15] Well, I love this poem you've picked.

Speaker 2:
[50:19] Thank you. I'm very excited to read this poem. I think many of you listeners love this poem as well. It is Won't You Celebrate With Me by Lucille Clifton. Won't you celebrate with me what I have shaped into a kind of life? I had no model. Born in Babylon, both non-white and woman, what did I see to be except myself? I made it up here on this bridge between starshine and clay, my one hand holding tight my other hand. Come celebrate with me that every day something has tried to kill me and has failed. That's Won't You Celebrate With Me by Lucille Clifton.

Speaker 1:
[51:05] It's so good. It's so good.

Speaker 2:
[51:08] Such a beautiful poem.

Speaker 1:
[51:09] Well, listeners, what vibes are on or off for you this week? Check in with us at vibecheckatstitcher.com.

Speaker 2:
[51:24] Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Vibe Check. If you love the show and want to support us, please make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast listening platform and tell a friend or two. As always, huge thank you to our producer Chantelle Holder, our executive producers, Camille Stanley from SiriusXM, and Brandon Sharp from Agenda, and Marcus Holmbard, theme music and sound design. Big shoutouts to our Patreon producer Julia Leo and Aisha Yu, who creates our social content.

Speaker 1:
[51:52] As always, we want to hear from you, so don't forget, you can email us at VibeCheck at sister.com and keep in touch with us on Instagram on our page at VibeCheck underscore pod. For direct access to our group chat, you can join our Patreon at patreon.com/vibecheck. Also, VibeCheck listeners can now get a free three month trial on the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/vibecheck. Again, that's siriusxm.com/vibecheck. Stay tuned for an episode this Friday. It's all about body fascism. It's a great episode to prep you for the summer. So until then, be safe.

Speaker 2:
[52:38] SiriusXM Podcasts.