transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] The following presentation is a Delmarva Studios production. Welcome back Truth Seekers from Around the World. It's time for another edition of The Fact Hunter podcast. It's lunchtime here in the Mid-Atlantic region on this Tuesday, April the 21st, 2026. Hope everybody had a great weekend. You're doing well. Obviously, the news cycle continues to churn on. Peace deal, war, peace deal, war, inflation, inflation. They try to keep your mind worried and busy with all that nonsense. I hope you have the armor of God on and you're just deflecting that nonsense away. But I hope you're well. Isn't it interesting how we've watered down our greetings to people? I mentioned this a few weeks ago, right? You say to someone, hey, how are you? And they say, fine, how are you? Oh, great, never had a bad day in my life, or whatever the case may be. When you see your neighbor, when you see your friend or a family member, you know, ask that with the make it genuine and from your heart, how are you doing? Because I'll tell you, there's a lot of people struggling. I met a family member in Wilmington. It's about an hour, 10, hour, 15 minutes north of where I reside for a nice lunch on Saturday and cruising up I-95 and we got off on the Delaware Avenue exit. And there's just this huge homeless encampment. And listen, I used to take that route to work every day when I worked for Chase Manhattan Bank in the late 80s and very early 90s. And here I am. I can't remember the last time I got off on that exit, but it had been a while. And just to see that, it kind of broke my heart. It really did. There are people going through difficult times. So, you know, pray for them. And speaking of difficult times, you know, I'm a very keep-it-down-the-middle guy. I don't try to get too high. I don't try to get too low. Right. And last Wednesday was a very difficult day for me. Last week had a lot of hurdles to overcome, a lot of obstacles, you know. When you're invested in something and someone asks you for ideas, and you put in a lot of time and effort to come up with something to make a real difference, not just in people's lives immediately, but in the community, and to make a real impact and to have them just tossed aside with no reason, just pure laziness. People don't want to do extra things that cause extra work, that benefit the good, both physically and spiritually in people. I was really beat up, and on the verge of tears coming home and called my wife, talked to her, and the foundational people in my life, I called them and talked to them, and you have to make a wholesale change in life sometime that's not comfortable. And unfortunately, sometimes people put you in unenviable situations that you have to withdraw your time and effort from, and either way you do it, you're kind of the bad guy. And that's the world we live in. Unfortunately, when people's visions aren't aligning and it's something that you value is supremely important, then you have to do your own thing. So you gotta pray, you gotta listen to God, and he makes those signs quite clear. You just have to be willing to listen. But the reason I'm mentioning this is how awesome our audience is. I came home from that 30-minute drive from that meeting, and I sat down at my computer feeling bad about myself, logged on, and there must have been seven or eight emails from our listeners just saying nice things. Like, I really enjoyed last night's podcast. I like your conviction. I got your book. Thank you. I shared it with somebody. And it's amazing how God works, really, because I was feeling bad for myself and opened my email. One of the gentlemen actually reached out to me on Facebook and sent me a long heartfelt message. And I told him straight up, I was like, what do you say kind things for people? You don't understand sometimes what just a few kind words can mean to somebody. You don't know. Even the guy you see at your office, who's always walking around cracking jokes and making light of everything, he may very well be the guy who's going through the most. And you'll be surprised how just a couple of kind words can change people's day. And for me, it was just the greatest. And just thank you all because we're humans and we tend to only reach out when something's not right. When we go to a restaurant, we have a great meal, how often do we make sure we leave a five-star review and say our server was fantastic and cordial and the food was great? It's usually when something doesn't go our way, then we got to complain about it. So God bless you all. That meant a lot to me, so much. It picked me back up, put me on the horse. I stopped feeling bad for myself and I've made the necessary adjustments. I'm still kind of in the process, but my compass has been realigned and we're back in the saddle again. Today, by the way, please check us out, foundationsandfaith.net. We have our 24-7 streaming radio which simultaneously broadcasts our Thursday night 8 p.m. broadcast on 5950 kilohertz on WRMI, Radio Miami International. And you can get the book there as well, Foundations and Faith. So, you know, we have talked about Waco and Oklahoma City ad nauseum on this podcast for many, many years. It is something that we will, you know, continuously talk about as long as I continue to do this podcast. You know, there are some things that are very near and dear to me. Obviously, COVID, which is still something that we have the chance to ensure accountability happens. Oklahoma City, Waco, Ruby Ridge. I believe Mr. Randy passed recently, if I'm not mistaken. Let me just double check myself in real time, but I feel like Mr. Weaver passed away a couple of years ago. Idaho, what a beautiful state, too. If you've never been there, we had the chance to go up there when I was stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado. And, yeah, Randy Weaver was a factory worker in Iowa. He was an Army veteran. Oh, wow, it's been that long. It's been almost four years? 2022? My goodness gracious. But even, you know, going on talking about the things that are near and dear to my heart, 9-11, obviously, the lies there and the things that bring about war. And I've said to a lot of people, a good way to wake people up, because there's still a lot of people within the church that want you to just pray for Team A or Team B, right? And sometimes you got to sit people down and say, listen, you understand in World War II, you had a German soldier with a Bible in his cargo pocket and an American soldier with a Bible in his cargo pocket shooting at each other because they were told, you know, they hate each other. And again, if you have to be told to believe a certain way, you may want to step back and use your discernment. And that goes for everything in this world. If you're told to believe something that doesn't make sense, well, then, yeah, you should pull back and kind of think things through before just going along with the mainstream, just to fit in. And there's a lot of conspiracies that people won't touch because they don't want to be that guy, right? So many of the things we speak about goes back to the Chabad Mafia, right? And Chabad Lubavitch is something that we have spoken about on numerous occasions. Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law, his father was a big part of it. A lot of it is on calendars, and Old Testament, and sacrifice. That's the reason we still have all of this nonsense. But there's something called the Chabad Calendar, right? The Jewish calendar that they used. And I had thought about that because that's some of the history I've been looking at. And I thought, let me go back to 28 Nissan 5753, which in the Jewish calendar is associated with Monday, April 19th, 1993, which is the day that Waco occurred. By the way, again, in the past, we did Waco in Oklahoma City in the same week. I just don't have that time. Chickens come in this week. I'm in the last couple of weeks of the semester. I have huge papers that are due. A lot going on. So this week, we're doing Waco, next week, we're doing Oklahoma City. So bear with if you would. But Jewish history, on that day, April 19th, Jericho's wall collapses. And if you remember that the archaeological evidence indicates that ancient Jericho was heavily fortified, a city or a compound. And what was Waco? A compound, right? Interesting. Now also, the Torah reading for that day, Monday, April 19th, 1993, according to the Chabad calendar, is Leviticus 12.1 through Leviticus 13.5. And if you look at verse four, it talks about, And then she shall continue in the blood of her purifying three and 30 days. That's 33. It is very interesting how they look at the Torah, right? And that passage, again, this is Leviticus 12, verse 1, through 13.5. That particular passage deals with purification, separation, the identification of uncleanliness, right? Moving from childbirth to the inspection of disease, on and on. And if you set that beside what happened at Waco, a group was surrounded, examined from outside, labeled, right? They were labeled as soon as, you know, the initial confrontation took place. The Mockingbird News started parroting the same terms, cults, crazy. And we, who were walking zombies at that time, at least I was. You know, God bless you all, who were born with the glasses on to see the world for how it is. I was so far gone when I was 22 years- that was 93, I was 24 years old. But I do remember where I was at that day. I was a salesman, had the old, you know, the TV with the rabbit ear antennas on, picking up a Philly station, and just watching that building burn, knowing that human beings were inside there, and that to this day has stayed with me, and it's been how many years? Thirty-three years. And you look at Leviticus, which was their reading for that day, and I think this is intentional why they do these on this day, right? It describes a system where the priest stands in authority to make these calls. And as I noted in my sub-stack this morning, and yeah, it was not long and thorough as I have in the past, it's just I wanted to put the effort into the audio podcast versus the writing. I don't have the time to do everything right now. But you look at Waco, that role shifts into federal power, making determinations about threat, legitimacy, and action. And again, we'll talk about it, but David Koresh was downtown all the time. They could have simply walked up to him and brought him in. Even the people when we moved down, we lived 30 minutes from Waco for almost a decade. And still a lot of people, it's been 15 years since I first moved down there. But they still felt horrible for those people, right? Sure, they may not have agreed with their way of living, but that doesn't give us the right to just obliviate these people, right? And that's what happened. You look at April 19th, 1993, that falls within the Passover cycle. And again, those folks are still waiting on their Messiah. Ours came 2,000 years ago. They're still waiting on their false Messiah. They want to build another tabernacle so they can continue these sacrifices, right? April 19th, 1993 fell within the Passover cycle, right? The vidicus 12, the number 33, appears in that purification period, marking a defined span before the restoration is complete. And that number doesn't sit alone when you start looking at the patterns. It becomes part of a broader framework, right? Then there's Jericho, the tradition that tied the fall of Jericho places it in the same seasonal window, with that seven-day encirclement, ending in a sudden collapse after the final signal. Is it mockery? Is it just recycled sacrifice? Right? Waco followed its own drawn-out sequence, days after standoff, pressure-building, negotiations. Until that final day, April 19th, when everything happened, you know, very quickly. Fire replaced the collapsing of the walls, but the structure is there. And when you bring it all together, right, with the purification laws, the appearance of the number 33, the Jericho timeline, and that April 19th date, which is known as the Feast of Moloch, you get more than just a coincidence on a calendar. And it's something that I think that needs to be examined more often. And I've just started my research into Oklahoma City and that date, and there are some ties connected there as well. But it's going to take, again, a little more research. I've read this article before on this day, and I think I'm going to do that again today. We've covered it again ad nauseum for several years. But some of the big points needs to be pointed out. But I'll just tell you, this isn't going to be a three-hour podcast. It's just not going to. But we're going to go back to the founding of the Branch Davidians, a gentleman by the name of Victor Huteff. He left the Orthodox Church of Bulgaria to join the Seventh Day at Venice. By the way, this was written by Dean Kelly in May of 1995. So in 1929, he moved to California, Mr. Huteff. Though not approved by the main body of the Seventh Day Adventist, he gained a following with his preaching. He and his followers moved to Texas in 1935. They founded a community called Mount Carmel in order to follow Huteff's teachings without distraction from their neighbors and the mainstream society, right? A la the Amish. We're just going to detach ourselves into this small area. Huteff died in 1955 without seeing the coming of the millennium that he had preached. And that is one thing with the Davidians that were very big into eschatology and times, right? All the prophetic books of the Bible. His wife, Florence, succeeded him as leader of the group, which called itself the Davidian Seventh-Day Adventist. They announced a new era would begin on April 22nd, 1959. That's interesting, that timeline. And there were about 900 people across the country. They sold their homes. They moved to Mount Carmel near Waco to await the end. Now, according to some, it did become a considerable burden on the public welfare program of McClannan County, which is the county in which Waco exists. So again, when the date come and went, nothing happened. Many of the disappointed adherents drifted away. And if you're following someone on YouTube or wherever, and they are telling you a certain date, that is the number one reason to click that unsubscribe, or delete, or power off button. Okay, nobody knows a time or date. Now, there was about 50 people who remained, but they moved to the New Mount Caramel, about 10 miles from Waco. And that's when the leadership devolved on a gentleman named Ben Roden, who called his following the branch Davidians, to distinguish it from another group that had continued the plain Davidian strand. And after his death, his wife, Lois, had led the group, traveling and meeting with foreign heads of state in the effort to spread the message. And after her death, a struggle took place between her son, George, and a relative newcomer to the group by the name of Vernon Howell. Now, she actually had favored Vernon as her successor, but George remained in control of the colony. So Vernon moved to Palestine, Texas, taking with him those among the faithful who accepted him rather than George as their prophet. Whether moving to Palestine, or maybe it's pronounced Palestine like it is in Ohio, I'm not immediately sure of that. I'm sure somebody will send me an email explaining that to me. George challenged Vernon to a duel. Man, I haven't seen a good duel in a while, have you? 1987, to prove which was the true prophet. Now, the form of the duel was to see who could bring back a long dead Davidian whose casket was exhumed by Rodin. Now, Howell declined the challenge and complained to the authorities about the exhumation. When they demanded proof, Howell and seven armed followers stole into the Mount Carmel premises to photograph the coffin. Rodin caught them, a gunfight ended up breaking out. And all of the eight branch Davidians were tried for attempted murder. Seven were acquitted, and Howell's trial ended in a hung jury, and he was never retried. George Rodin didn't prosper at Mount Carmel. He lost most of his followers, went to debt. He rented out some of the ramshackle buildings to non-Davidian tenants, including two drug traffickers. Rodin would be jailed for six months for writing threatening letters to a judge. Not a good idea. And during that time, Howell gained the title to Mount Carmel by paying off 16 years of delinquent taxes. In 1989, Rodin murdered a man with an ax and was committed to a mental institution where he remained. Though he did escape briefly in 1993, and Howell's followers, in apprehension that Rodin would return to attack them, they maintained an armed vigilance against that threat. So now we're in early 1990. Vernon Howell legally changed his name to David Koresh after the Hebrew King David and the Persian King Cyrus, who freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity. He was not the first to choose the letter, the latter name, pardon me. In 1869, Cyrus Teed changed his name to Koresh, taught that he was the Messiah, and wrote commentaries on the seven seals of the Book of Revelation. He drew a following of Koreshians, but he actually was killed in Florida in 1906 during a violent encounter with a marshal. When Howell joined the Branch Davidians in 1981, he was not a prepossessing figure. He was dyslexic, he had a stutter, a high school dropout. He was really obsessed with his cars, we talked about that in prior episodes, guns, and of course his rock music, he loved playing guitar. He was described by one commentator as a tearful, insecure, pesky young man. He was very intelligent. He was articulate. He was mechanically adept. He had a memory. He could just call off verses, just write off, write. Some people are like that, just they can memorize every verse. It's, it's something. Now, sometime during the mid 1980s, the finger of God touched him. And within a few years, he had matured. He lost his speech defect and shown an amazing ability to enlist followers attracted to his Bible-based vision and his ability to articulate it. You know, how he overcame that. You know, maybe there was a brief time where he was faithful to Jesus. You can't call yourself the Messiah. You can't appoint yourself as the Messiah. Obviously, defending the burning down of this entire compound of women and children and men doesn't mean you're defending the person itself. A government cannot just wipe out- and the correct word would be sacrifice- just dozens and dozens of people in a time when they could have simply walked into town and arrested him. So again, he became to be quite the wordsmith and the talker. They said he could have sold ice to an Eskimo, right? He was persuasive with his message so much that he started to draw converts. Now, mostly those who were already Seventh-day Adventists. But they came from many states and foreign countries. Remember, there was no internet back then. It's not like they could just go on Zoom and meet with like-minded people from around the world. People's faith means a lot to them. There are pastors in Calispell, Montana. There are pastors in Jacksonville, Florida, who mean so much to people. They are willing to pack up their stuff and go to be a part of that congregation. If people are willing to move for a job, why wouldn't people want to move? That job brings financial security. Why would you not want to move for something that you believe brings you that spiritual stability? And there are a lot of people doing that. They're realizing where we are in the timeline, and they will do whatever they can to find a true church, not one of these dispensationalists, not one of these, they're afraid to point out sin, they're afraid to point out hell, they just want you to show up for an hour, give you a feel-good message, make sure you give your money, and then we'll see you next week. I don't want to go into the community and help the poor. They don't want to clothe people, they don't want to feed people, they don't want to go up to a stranger, right? That's the sub-stack I wrote last week. If you're walking by a house and you see it on fire, 99% of you are going to do whatever you can within your power to get them out of that burning flame. Well, if you know a friend, a family member that is headed toward that flame, why aren't you doing whatever you can to pull them out? Back to the podcast. David Cresh inherited a millennial view from Huteff and the Rodens, along with their authoritarian style of leadership. His message was focused on the decoding of cryptic apocalyptic passages, right? He was always talking about the seven seals in the Book of Revelation. He understood it better than anyone else. That's what he said, right? And he presented that, that the lamb, you know, the forces of evil would be concentrated in the present center of earthly power, right? That government of the United States is that Babylonian might who would be brought to bear against the lamb and his elect. But the lamb wasn't going to submit meekly to the Babylonians. That was his viewpoint, right? The battle of Armageddon must be waged with maximum effort by the faithful to draw the heavenly host and bring the city of God. And to that end, Howell accumulated arms for his followers, and that's how they ended up making their money, going to gun shows. That's how they were able to provide sustenance to their families and their quote-unquote followers. And again, Texas, especially back then in the 90s, gun ownership, listen, even when I live there, people have their shotguns on their gun racks in their truck. They're walking with their guns on their holsters around. That's, you know, people have a right to defend themselves against evil. He was stimulated in that endeavor by a curious and unseemly event, which was described in the chronology of a post-mortem report by the US. Treasury Department as follows. Local law enforcement- this was from March of 92- local law enforcement conducts SWAT training near Mount Carmel. David Koresh reacts by bringing back members from California and England, making large purchases of weapons parts, acquiring chemicals which can be used to make explosives, purchasing NVGs, night vision glasses, night vision scopes, sensors, and then accumulating large supplies of ammunition. So, here's the thing. They intentionally, in March of 92, held a large training event next to them. So they felt threatened. So what did they do? Well, they armed themselves. They saw this three-day episode within ear range of Mount Carmel as brazen intimidation by the Babylonians. That was their perspective. And he responded with what he deemed was strong defensive measures. And then that, in turn, brought him to the attention of federal authorities. So it was this escalation back and forth, which again, started with the obvious, without a doubt, obvious brazen intimidation of the local law enforcement and the SWAT teams. Listen, just south of there, is it- I'm trying to think on the map, is it southeast? Fort Hood, they could have trained there easily, without a doubt. But one of the other features of the teaching of Quresh was pertinent to the unfolding of events. There were certain Bible passages that he clung to, especially the 45th Psalm, the implication that the lamb should be united with the king's daughters, honorable women, the virgins, to beget children who thou must make princes in all the earth. So his understanding, which came to be shared by his followers, was that only the seed of the lamb was pure, and that lamb alone should beget the children who would rule the world in the coming age. Now, again, you have to understand that somewhere between what we're told and what we believe is the truth, to what extent did this guy believe he was the lamb, he was the messiah, or was he someone who was just a, maybe an extreme Seventh Day Adventist who just wanted to be left alone? I think, I say this all the time, one extreme begets another extreme. And that just keeps trying to outdo each other until it gets to a point where it explodes. And with all that going on, right, what was Koresh? He was the father of, what, 12 children at least? And of course, when the government started getting hold of the story, they start portraying it out. Obviously, there was criticism from the outsiders. There was a nine-week investigation just the year before, in 92, by the Texas Bureau of CPS, which, let's be honest with each other, we've had people on this podcast who have exposed the system. Again, not every person who works for CPS is bad. Most people are just trying to save children in bad situations. However, comma, the system can be corrupted. We've seen it, right? So again, a nine-week investigation in 1992 by the Texas Bureau of CPS found zero evidence of child abuse. Discipline of children did not appear to have been strict at Mount Carmel, and Koresh did sometimes paddle the children. I got my butt whooped when I was a child in the 70s, maybe the very, very early 80s, right? You heard that the closet open up and the belts jingle. Oh, what did I do? But the children who were examined by the Texas authorities were found to be healthy. They were well adjusted. They weren't traumatized. They were educated. They could speak well. There was a- remember those who were pictured on the videotape with Koresh, made during the siege, during the siege when most of our children from today would be just traumatized. They were very fond of him and very unapprehensive, to be honest with you. Now, new religious movements often have unconventional marital arrangements, right? The complex marriage, Utah, all around the world, right? Whatever the arrangements were at Mount Carmel, they were part of a project of soteriological procreation, which was used by the- that term was used by Lawrence Sullivan, one of the government's chosen commentators, to wordsmith the federal reports about Waco. Because remember, immediately after this, it was a CYA, everybody for themselves, Reno, Clinton, and everybody else at the ATF, the FBI, and all of that. They all went into self-protection mode. No one was held accountable, right? So again, it was a collective project joined in by the religious community. It was an undertaking to treasure husband and disseminate the pure seed, as he said, as a precious resource for raising up the heirs of a new kingdom. Now, as the branch- pardon me, as the government told the story in retrospect, its attention was drawn to the branch Davidians near Waco in May of 92. And I think most of you remember this from the movie, right? There was a UPS driver. He reported that a carton for delivery to Mount Carmel had broken open, wink, wink, to reveal a shipment of inert hand grenades. That incident was reported to the sheriff's office, which notified the office of the ATF in Austin, which is about a little less than two hours away, because we were right between Austin and Waco. It was about 35 minutes to Waco from- we were in the Temple Colleen area, and then it was an hour south to Austin. So probably 95 minutes from Waco to Austin. An agent named Davy Aguilera was assigned to investigate. By tracing UPS invoices, he compiled a list of $43,000 worth of guns, gun parts, kits, grenade hauls, black powder, et cetera. He contacted former members of the religious group for information about his activities, and then would end up writing a report in which allegations, once again, of child abuse figured prominently, right? Even though they'd already had a nine-week investigation. So were these people- did they have a falling out with David Koresh, and were they encouraged by the FBI to say these things, to give them justification to move in? Again, nine-week investigation. Now, the agency's interests lagged until about mid-92. There was a television program on sexual harassment within the ATF. And if you remember, this threatened the agency's existence. There was a TV show in, I think, it was June of 92. And there was this mass sexual harassment investigation going on. And they were afraid this was going to impair the agency's prospects at the congressional budget hearings that just happened to take place in March of 1993. So, the head of the ATF said, we need some kind of good press. We need to get the people behind us, right? When George HW. Bush, old poppy, he didn't get the backing of the people during Desert Storm. He had to pull out that 15-year-old girl, Nayir Al-Sabah, to claim that the Iraqi soldiers were throwing babies out of incubators. We had to send our young men and women over there to save them. And then October 92, 60 Minutes, or Nightline, it was Nightline. So it turned out she was the daughter of the ambassador to Kuwait in the United States. She hadn't even been in Kuwait in years. And she was- they paid a talent agency $10 million to coach her as she sat in front of that congressional hearing that sent and made a lot of people sick. My father had to retire in 94 from the post office. He was so sick from Desert Storm Syndrome. He was the first speaker of the Desert Storm investigation in August of 95 on C-SPAN. I still have the 7-minute and 30-second clip of him speaking. That's how our government takes care of us. And, you know, God forbid a government agency doesn't get its contract. What are we going to do to make ourselves look better? We have to do something. We need some good press. Hey, what's going on down there in Waco? So in the fall into the winter of 92, the agency began to plan a major raid on the branch Davidians. They worked hard to get to gain a warrant for the arrest of one Vernon Howell, who was downtown all the time. All the time. They wanted to search his property for illegal firearms, and then after assembling a large number of agents, and they did rehearse for several days, the ATF launched its raid on Sunday morning, right? That's what they tell you in, when you're in, whether it's war college, as a senior officer, any historian knows if you're going to attack the enemy, you do it on Sunday morning. It's not so much the spiritual side of things. It's the known one day a week when most people don't get up early in the morning. That's what they say, right? That's when Pearl Harbor was Sunday morning, right? And that's what they did. They launched its raid on a Sunday morning, February 20th, 1993. And it was described as a dynamic entry. Dynamic meaning just multiple facets to the attack. It was impaired. These guys were well-armed. They went to the range. They could shoot. They were very- They knew their tactics. They lost their element of surprise as well. So on the morning of the raid, several converging lines moving toward the house. There was a mile-long convoy, a mile-long convoy of 80 government vehicles with their headlights on, including two covered cattle trailers containing over 70 agents in full SWAT gear. And they reached the staging area at Belmead, on the edge of Waco at 7:30 a.m. When you see something like that, if you live in Kansas City and you're at the whatever grocery store that everybody goes to, and you see 70 vehicles go by, up-armored SWAT vehicles go by, your text and all your friends, hey, what's going on? Back then, they were calling each other, running to the pay phone, hey, what's going on? There were two helicopters that were supplied by the Texas National Guard. Robert Rodriguez, an undercover ATF agent who had infiltrated the Davidians, but they suspected him. They knew he was a plant. He entered the residence to join them during the morning Bible study. Isn't that something? And again, they say, well, we did it on Sunday morning because that's the war colleges, and they all say, that's when you attack the enemy, right? Well, it's a shame, number one, that you perceive American citizens as your enemy, right? Number two, to do it during sunny morning, during Bible study. Again, mockery. It's mockery. So look, you see this convoy driving through the town. People are calling. Back then, people literally called the media directly, right? In 1984, if I wanted to listen to Van Halen jump, I'd get on the phone and call WSDW or WCAU out of Philadelphia. And I tell the DJ, hey, you're going to play jump. I Dave, you know, George from Wilmington. Here's jump of Van Halen, right? We had access to the media. And that's what happened. People started calling the newspapers, the radio, what's going on? And man, everybody starts to converge. One of them, one of the people who would end up converging later played a part in 1995. He played a, I should say he played a role on the stage of the Oklahoma City event. Of course, that's Timothy McVeigh. So here we are. You got these reporters assigned to scout the scene of Mount Caramel. One of them got lost and asked directions from a local mailman. Hey, excuse me, sir. Can you tell me where this Mount Caramel is? There's an assault about to happen and I got to go cover it. The mailman's name was David Jones, who happened to be David Koresh's brother-in-law. So he headed to the residence to give the alarm. His father, Perry Jones, called Koresh out of the Bible study to tell him what David Jones had learned. And when he returned to the study group, Koresh was visibly upset. He called out to Rodriguez, he said, neither the ATF or the National Guard will ever get me. They got me once, will never get me again. He walked to the window and said, They're coming. The time has come. And Rodriguez, who was afraid the raid was about to begin while he was still on the premises, he said, I have an appointment, gotta go. Koresh shook hands with him and said, Good luck, Robert. And he knew that was goodbye. Rodriguez hurried out to notify the raid. And if this was the real enemy, Koresh could have just pulled out a gun and held him as a hostage, right? That's not what he did. He knew he was a plant, he knew he was part of it. But he let him go. That's something I don't think gets talked about enough. Right? A real bad guy. And again, I'm not- I'm just saying, right? This guy who was about to be converged on by a tyrannical government could have, and I'm not saying it's justified so. But I think many people in that situation, knowing that Rodriguez was the enemy, would have taken him as a hostage for self-protection. And he didn't do that. So now it's 9 a.m., the convoy gets under way. It arrived about a half hour later. In the meantime, you have helicopters that were scheduled to create a diversion, right? That's what you do when we're at PLDC, when you're planning an attack, you always have the diversion. You have one or two guys over here making noise. When the enemy looks that way, then you come from the other side with overwhelming force, right? So, again, the helicopters that were scheduled to create a diversion, so the approach of the cattle trailers that were filled with agents wouldn't be noticed. They were late. They didn't come by, right? They didn't come by until the cattle trucks were already pulling into the yard. It was too late to create a diversion. And to be honest with you, a helicopter is going to create such a temporary distraction. It's just going to raise everybody's attention, and it's going to say, hey, everybody to your post, and then whoever's on that post is going to see the convoy coming. I don't think that was ever meant to be the case. That's my opinion. They claimed it was too late for the raid to be aborted. And that is nonsense. You could abort at any time. There hadn't even been a single bullet fire. That is the biggest lie. Well, that's one of many, many lies out of all this nonsense. So again, the events unfolded. The two unmarked cattle trailers drove up in front of the building as Mount Caramel. And, you know, you have all these agents dressed in these commando suits with ski masks, racing into this compound with women and children. I have a real problem. And I've said this before. I respect our first responders. Absolutely, I do. Again, it's the system. But I saw a police officer one time at a Wawa in Middletown. And again, I don't know why I said it. I just looked at him and he was full battle rattle. And I said to him, I was like, wow. I said, things must be tough around here because I wore less kit than that walking around Baghdad and he just kind of looked at me like, whatever dude, but that is, it should bother you that our police drive around with, you know, they have these up armored vehicles. They have full body. They have M4s, right? In the 50s, if you go by, I always say go back and watch Leave It to Beaver. You don't see police, police officers. They have their Billy club. They wear short sleeve shirt. And then that's basically it. That's because there was accountability back then. And that was the whole, you know, preface of my article today was accountability. If there's no accountability on either side, when someone commits a crime against people, or the government commits a crime against the people, whether it's people against people or the government against the people, there's no accountability. Here in the state of Delaware, 99% of the time, someone commits a crime, they're out the next day. Sell for cognizance, $500, right? Manslaughter, more than $500 bond. Oh, that's going to show them. That'll teach them. There's no accountability. But they want a world that isn't turmoil. It's easier to govern a world that isn't turmoil, because we're screaming for safety. We have it. Now it's going to cost you a little bit of your freedoms, but you're going to be safer. And that's how they get down to it, right? So, you know, at some point, you know, the gunfire begins. Koresh, who was unarmed at this point, I must make that perfectly clear, opened the front door before they reached it and says, what do you want? What are you doing? There's children and women in here. And of course, what does the lead agent do? Police, get down. And you know, sometimes I'll watch these police videos on YouTube, and there'll be a shootout, and they'll just drill the guy in the chest, and he'll go down and they'll continue to yell, hands up, hands up, and the guy is dead as a door now. And I get the adrenaline rush in those situations. I've been in those situations, you know, when bullets are flying, when there's explosions, but not against women and children. Absolutely not, I can't tell you. I always get to this point to the podcast, and I start to get very upset. It's 33 years ago, I can't change it. But you would think somebody, a grown man within that, would have said, this is wrong. And I'm not saying there wasn't, but it wasn't the loudest voice, that's for sure. And before you know it, heavy fire breaking out from both sides. Two teams of the ATF agents with ladders mounted the roof. Never forget that, right? Shots coming through the windows, the agent getting hit, being carried down. One team did make an entry, but the other did. But they weren't able to advance, because the gunfire, they were prepared. And that was the key. I think, deep down, all of this was intentional to get the people mad. That way the news could come on and start talking about cult, crazy. And, you know, I'll never forget. Going- We went out to dinner that night. And I remember people in the restaurant. Maybe I just remember, maybe it wasn't that day. Maybe it was the next day. I just remember people being, well, thank goodness those people are gone. Like, that was a lot of people. Not- I'm not saying that was the overwhelming majority, but there were some people. It was like, whoo, those Waco's are gone. Thank goodness we can go back to our normal lives, not have those people around here again. It's just obscene. So a few minutes after the raid began, one of the Davidians, Wayne Martin, who was a Harvard trained lawyer, very well regarded in Waco, he called 911, he reached the sheriff's office in Waco, and you can still find that audio on YouTube, I believe. He's screaming. He's like, what are you doing? There's 75 men around our building, and they're shooting at us. Tell them there's women and children in here, and get out of here. And, you know, this is repeated on and off. As the Sheriff's Office even tried to reach out to the ATF and put them in touch with Martin. And finally, luckily, they were able to arrange a ceasefire, and they allowed the ATF agents to recover the bodies. It was, I think, four killed, and there were several wounded agents as well. They withdrew to a safe distance, and they regrouped. And of course, there was mass confusion. The leadership of that day, again, inept, yes, purposefully, we can debate that. I think so. I think the goal from the beginning was to get to April 19th, so they could do their sacrifice. That's my belief. When you're in this business long enough to see how this world operates, these things don't happen. They're not coincidental. They're not. They didn't have a backup plan. They said, this is how it's going to go. And listen, any time we've gone on a raid or anything before, there's A, B, and C. You're right. If we go into this entryway, if it's blocked off, this is our way. And if that doesn't work out, this is our exit plan, right? No. It's like some kid playing Call of Duty came up with this plan. Now, of course, the Branch Davidians suffered casualties as well. Perry Jones, Koresh's father-in-law, who was standing behind him in the foyer when he opened the door, he was shot. Koresh was hit in the hand and the side, right? The famous video of him holding a side, bleeding on that videotape. Winston Blake, he was killed at one end of the building when JD. Wendell was killed at the other, just as she had finished nursing her baby. Peter Gent was shot and killed in the water tower. Peter Hipsman was hit inside the house. Several Davidians hurrying to Mount Caramel from a warehouse called the Mag Bag several miles away, were intercepted by ATF agents. One was killed, Michael Schreider, and one was captured, and one got away. So the next day, the FBI takes over the investigation, right? The famous Hollywood movie, We're In Charge Now, right? They had mutual recognition that its HRT was more experienced, right? The ATF's hostage rescue team wasn't quite as seasoned as the FBI's, or so they say. The FBI established a containment perimeter around the Mount Caramel buildings, cut off all telephones, other communications, except with its own negotiators, and settled down to a patient process of trying to talk to the Davidians out of their home, which again, was returned as a compound, a fortress. And of course, this consisted of several hours, the negotiators listening to Koresh. I've played his calls before, where he's literally almost giving a sermon over the phone to the negotiators, constantly reciting scripture. And these guys don't know how to react. And they're like, well, what are we going to do, David? And he's just saying, you guys need to leave, you need to get out of here. And they're like, well, we're not going to do that. So again, these negotiations were sabotaged from the beginning. And the FBI referred to it as Bible babble. And again, this is the words that they're throwing across on the television, that they're intentionally making the Bible sound like gibberish. Well, if this guy believes the Bible, huh huh, right? It's not a coincidence when you look, the 90 was really the initial downfall of the church. The numbers are staggering. This again, this was a multi-faceted operation. And one of the intentions was clearly to trivialize the word of God. I believe that 1,000 percent. That's the term. Bible, Babel is what they called it. This guy, Koresh, gone on reading these, something about psalm, something about revelation, crazy words. Then they started to use pressure tactics, and they did get some women and children out during the first week of the siege, 21 children and two utterly women did come out. And of course, the two women were immediately, and I'm not laughing because it's funny, I'm laughing at disbelief, just handcuffing these elderly women, handcuffing them, shackling them, and charging them with murder. Negotiators persuaded the prosecutors to back off a little bit. Oh, my goodness, in the ensuing week, two weeks, pardon me, 12 additional adults came out, they exited the compound, as the federal jargon put it, but each such departure would be punished by an increase in pressure tactics. So what did they do first? They turned off the electricity. They turned it off occasionally, and then shut it down permanently. After several adults had come out on March 21st, the FBI announced that it would clear the ground of the buildings, bulldozing automobiles, go-karts, propane tanks, and other quote, obstacles that stood in the way. So their private property became obstacles. That evening, the FBI began playing very loud music over the public address system, the psychological operations that had been used for a long, long time. Loud music, rabbits crying, all of these things that they do to make people lose their mind is what they started doing. Remember, the government assaulted them first. Could have arrested him anytime. Just waited when he went downtown, rested him, but no. Again, intentional. Koresh and the Davidians had asked many times over the phone that it be turned off. About midnight, Koresh announced angrily, because of the loud music, no one else would come out. Then they started the floodlights, right? So it was constant light into the building. Then they started playing recordings of Tibetan chants, Christmas music, the cries of rabbits being slaughtered. Very intense psychological operations. Beginning March 29th, two attorneys retained by the relatives of Koresh and his lieutenant, Steve Schneider, were permitted to meet with them at the door of Mount Carmel. Later, they were allowed to consult with them in doors for several hours and to talk with them by phone without federal monitoring. During the first week of April, the Branch Davidians were observing Passover, which I mentioned at the beginning. The negotiations were at a standstill. Starting at April 10th, the FBI began laying large coils of razor-sharp concertina wire around the buildings to close the perimeter more securely. Two men, adult males in federal leaves, had snuck into the buildings during the preceding period. They had also fired flashbangs, these distraction slash concussion grenades, at anyone who came out of the buildings for any other purpose other than surrender. So someone came out of the building that were harassing them, throwing flashbangs and those type of things. Just constant torture and harassment of these people. And throughout the siege, the FBI only approached the buildings in armored vehicles. Again, this sends a message to the opposing people, that you are in combat mode. That escalates them. Well, if they're coming with, you know, an armored vehicle, I better have my AT-4 ready, right? And the escalation just went back and forth. By the way, this blows my mind. And obviously, you all know this, but there was nine Bradleys. You know, these came to for Wiston just a few years before that. The Bradley fighting vehicle was the ODS, the Operation Desert Storm Vehicle. Kelsey Grammer made a satirical movie about, boy, if you- the taxpayers and the Bradley fighting vehicles. Oh my goodness. But they had nine Bradley fighting vehicles that were built for Operation Desert Storm, are against these people lined up. And of course, you had engineering vehicles. They had a tank retrieval vehicle in case one went down, they could pull it out. And Abrams tanks. Seventy-five men and women. Tanks, Bradleys. Can you tell me they didn't go there to kill those people? Reno walked, Clinton walked, everybody in the ATF, FBI walked. Half the population were just glad it was over. The other half couldn't believe what happened, and they went about their day. And that's the truth. During the 51-day siege, the Davidians made 41 requests to the FBI. Milk, a lot of it was for the children, right? Typewriter ribbons, batteries. Half of them, I think 25 were granted. With the milk cartons and other deliveries, the FBI slipped in electronic listening devices that gave them a partial understanding of what was going on inside. Toward the end of March, the FBI began to consider the possibility of inserting tear gas into the buildings. Now, remember MOVE in Philadelphia, that was, I think, 85, where they burnt down an entire city with the same tactics. They knew what was going to happen. They knew what was going to happen, right? This expedient was eventually presented to Steve Reno, or I'm sorry, Janet Reno, after consideration- that was intentional, by the way- and consideration and consultation with the president. She approved it. Ironically, just as the federal government was abandoning hope of a peaceful solution, there opened up the possibility of such an outcome. You see, early in the siege, Koresh had promised to come out if his message could be aired on national media, and he did indeed prepare an hour-long audio tape that was broadcast locally, but not nationally. Two quote-unquote scholars of apocalyptic religion, Phil Arnold of the Reunion Institute in Houston, and James Tabora of the University of North Carolina, studied the broadcast and believed Koresh could be reasoned if approached within his own frame of reference. Right? You can't address Koresh with FBI lingo. If somebody with- who could match him doctrinally and kind of reason with him that way, they believed that he would- they could get him to come out. So again, they tried to plead with the FBI to say, hey, I think we can reason with this guy. Well, why don't you hear us out? Nah, this is just another delay tactic. We're just going to go ahead with our plans to use the tear gas. They did send in writing materials on Sunday, April 18th. And Koresh worked most of that night dictating to Ruth Riddle, who typed his words on a battery-powered word processor. We went from the typewriter to that word processor. That was a short-lift thing, right? And then just into computers and printers. He completed a five-page introduction to The Seven Seals, a poem of 13 quatrains and a seven-page exposition of the first seal. Now, at that rate, Arnold and Tabor estimated he would have completed in about two weeks. And as you know, he didn't get the chance. The next morning, the FBI gas assault began. And David Koresh must have concluded that his original scenario of imminent destruction was correct. Ruth Riddle barely escaped the ensuing fire with her life, with a small computer disk in her pocket. Late 1993, her attorney was able to recover that disk from the FBI and did turn it over to Arnold and Tabor, who with her help carefully transcribed it. It is a systematic explanation of Koresh's apocalyptic vision, ending with an imitation, I'm sorry, intimidation of a readiness to come out, a seclusion adapted from the words of the prophet Joel 2.16. Let the bridegroom go forth from his chamber and the bride out of her closet. Yes, the bride is definitely to be revealed, for we know that Christ is the heavenly sanctuary, anticipating his marriage, of which God has spoken. Should we not eagerly ourselves be ready to accept this truth and come out of our closet and be revealed to the world as those who love Christ and the truth and righteousness? So what's happening here is Arnold and Thabor, these scholars are saying in this writing that they made clear that Koresh did not in any way, shape, or form consider himself to be Jesus, as many of the media had pushed that narrative, right? Very interesting, and that's something I'll leave up to the listener to discern and study and things of that nature. So April 19th, the FBI began 6 a.m. to spray riot-controlled CS gas. Anybody who's been in the military has been exposed to that. That is part of your basic training. You go into this. It's horrible. You go into this building outside, far away from post. I mean, it's on post. I was at Fort Leonardwood, and it was just a building out in the field. CS gas would be in there. It was just to show you that your mask worked. You would walk in with your mask. You could breathe, do jumping jacks, and move your neck around. And then the drill sergeant would tell you to take your mask off, and everybody would hold their breath as long as they could. And then you'd start choking and tearing up, and you would go out, and you would be drooling and choking and coughing. That was, whatever, a week, five or six of the Army. Ah, the memories, almost 40 years ago, which is crazy. But again, here they are spraying this gas into the buildings of Mount Caramel by the means of two heavy combat engineering vehicles. And remember, they had those long booms with the spray nozzles on the end. And they did that in order to inject the substance into the living quarters. The tanks, remember, it plowed through those walls at several points. And the original plan was to continue slow spraying over 48 hours with these tanks. Are you kidding me? Unless the residents compromised the process by resisting. Now, as the tanks approached, I'm going to say this again. As the tanks approached, I'm going to say this one more time for those who may have missed it. As the tanks approached, the FBI insisted, this is not an assault. So for those of you who are scoring at home, coming at someone's place of their residents with a tank is not consisting of an assault. And of course, the residents didn't submit to this treatment meekly. They fired back, of course, a bullet doesn't do anything to a tank. Bing, bing, right? It just bounces off. And that's just hearing the gunfire, they automatically went to play Plan B. They're just like disperse all the gas as fast as possible. None came out. So around noon, a fire broke out at several points. And in the brisk 30-mile-an-hour wind that day, that place went up quickly. At 12, 13, the FBI called the fire department. And imagine knowing ahead of time you're going to spray CS gas and not having the fire department. Just for that alone, somebody should have spent many years in prison and a loss of all benefits, pay, pension, all of it. We go to a range to fire our weapons, our M4s. We have all that stuff on the standby. We've got the fire extinguishers, all of it. And the fire department is on standby, ready to go nearby. Doesn't take much, especially with tracer rounds. And you have CS gas, which you know just eight years prior burned down an entire city. 1213, the FBI calls the fire department. The fire trucks arrive at 1234, but were held at the FBI checkpoint because of the danger of gunfire. Yeah, there's 75 people burning alive in there, but we better hold up. Of course, there was probably rounds popping off from the fire, right? By the time they got there, at almost quarter till 1245, there was nothing left to be salvaged. Nine residents were able to get out, and they were hurt. Oh, by the way, these people were burnt seriously. They managed to escape with their lives. They were in tough shape. They were arrested, shackled. Unbelievable. After the ruins had cooled, the forces of law enforcement combed the site for evidence. And of course, they subsequently bulldozed the grounds for health reasons. The remains of some 75 bodies were recovered, and examined by the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's Office in Fort Worth, Texas. The magnitude of the disaster and the obscurity of it causes, and its handling by the federal agencies, led to demands for investigation and explanation. Of course, with any other thing that's happened, congressional hearings were held. You know, Clinton took the unusual step of directing the two cabinet officers, and they were responsible to investigate and report what happened, right? They always- it's always CYA with these folks. Cover your behind, right? And for seven weeks, the public had been absorbed by daily accounts of what was going on. In this day and age, when something stays in the news for like an hour, no matter how big it is, this was the headline for a month and a half. You had 700- I'm sorry, several hundred reporters from across the country and around the world gathered in Waco, and everybody had the shot of that building burning to the ground, knowing that they were women and children and men, human beings in there. There were a few representatives of the alternate press. They tried to do independent investigating. But we know how it goes. Their voices aren't widely heard. I'm suppressed. The definition of the situation for government agencies and the media alike was strongly colored by negative stereotypes about the cults that had become an endemic over the past decade, right? And they aligned Koresh and those people who were killed that day with Jonestown. These people were drinking the Kool-Aid, right, the Krishnas, the Scientologists, and all of that. They really did a number on the public when they should have really got- These people should have been standing in Austin, which is the capital of Texas, and they should have been in DC screaming for accountability. So we know how it goes. 1,300 pages issued by the Department of Treasury, the Justice Department. Yeah, we made some errors, but I think, you know, that the people did the best, what they could with what was in front of them. They had every opportunity to nip this in the bud before it got to where it was. And, you know, we've covered the end ad nauseum, and that's the biggest part, right? They had 10 outside experts who were invited to comment on the Treasury and Justice Department reports. You had six of them focused on law enforcement methods, organizations, their tactics. But four of them were asked to address the problem of dealing with persons whose motivations and thought processes are unconventional. The only scholar of religion to be included was Professor Nancy Ammerman, Sociology of Religion at the Candler School of Theology at Emory University. She was concerned about the lack of understanding by the federal agencies of what they were dealing with at Waco and their failure to consult experts could have helped them. And she goes on to the Millennious Movement and all the other ways that the communication should have been handled on and on and on. But with all that nonsense aside, this, if they didn't want it to be what it was, they simply could have arrested him downtown. This was all intention, right? And it goes into 94, the federal government brought to trial 10 men, one women among the 25 adult branch Davidian survivors. The principal charges against all 11 were conspiring to kill with malice, a forethought. Federal agents in the discharge of their duties and aiding and bedding such killing. By the way, another woman, Catherine Schrader, she actually pled guilty to a lesser charge and agreed to testify for the government, which meant that she- they wore her out. You want to go to jail for 25 years? You know, that's what they do. They just sweat everybody until one person turns. The trial was moved to San Antonio. They had a anonymous jury selected. Ten attorneys represented the 11 defendants, and the trial, just like the siege, lasted several- I'm sorry, seven weeks. The evidence that was adduced didn't settle who fired the first shot, or who started the fire. But some new light shed on the claims that set forth in the government's version of the events. And some light was lacking that should have been shed because of the evidence was strangely missing. Some very important evidence that really could have tossed some serious issues into the government's case, just happened to disappear. On and on and on. And just, I don't even want to focus on the court case. It's just a bunch of government agents covering for each other about, like Agent Craig testified that after he inserted the first bottle of CS gas, he heard on his radio that the residents began to fire back. Apparently, he was not aware that his vehicle had been hit by gunfire because of its heavy armor. And of course, those engines are extremely loud. So he switched to Plan B on his own and injected as much gas as fast as he could. And he emptied his other three bottles. He actually returned to get more. So that place was full of gas, just full of gas. After impassioned closing statements by both sides and a lengthy instruction from Judge Walter Smith, the jury retired to deliberate. They called. They said, hey, could we hear the tape of Wayne Martin's 911 call to the Sheriff's Office? And we need a few clarifications on the law. They debated, and on February the 26th, 1994, the jury found that all defendants, all of those branch Davidians, were not guilty of the most serious accusations, conspiracy to murder federal agents, and aiding abetting such conspiracy. In doing so, you have to understand the jury rejected the government's repeated charge of ambush. The jury did convict five of them of a lesser offense that the judge had been defined as acting in the sudden heat of passion caused by adequate provocation. Almost four months later, on June 16th, 1994, the judge convened a hearing for sentencing. In the interim, pre-sentence reports had been prepared on each convicted defendant by probation officers. But an odd thing happened. The judge had reinstated the convictions on count three. Ruth Riddle, who had been acquitted of all other charges, was being deported to Canada for overstaying her visa, was tree from the Immigration Service, and brought back to sentencing on that charge. And the other six faced an additional year in prison, or years, I should say, in prison. Before sentencing each of the nine convicted defendants, they had the opportunity to address the court. One or two asked to retry the case, insisting, among other things, that the court did not have jurisdiction. And that Janet Reno and Bill Clinton should have been called as witnesses, but they did not. Others maintained that they had not been responsible for the deaths of the ATF agents. And yes, 100 percent, Janet Reno's behind should have been standing in there for that trial. No one expressed contrition or remorse. Perhaps the best articulation of their views was that of Livingston Fagan, the Jamaican who was probably the only branch Davidian with any formal theological training. He said, first of all, there's no doubt in our minds we are innocent. Never at any point have I sought to distance myself from David Koresh, his teachings, or from the actions of the residents of Mount Carmel. The actions that were forced to take were justified given the circumstances that we were placed in by the actions of the agents of the government. We were pursuing realities pertaining to the spirit that this court did not, does not recognize as they did not recognize 2000 years ago. Right from the very beginning, the spiritual aspect of this was totally and absolutely rejected. But it was the very core of why we were out Mount Carmel, and essentially why we acted the way we acted. He closed with this. We don't particularly care what you want to do. You're going to do it anyway. But we also serve a god who sits on a throne like you judge. He's got a book in his hand, sealed with seven seals. Men don't know his judgment. Consequently, Mount Carmel happened the way it did. As you have judged so too, you will be judged. And we do not accept this notion, this façade that is being presented in this court, that somehow we have agreed with this judgment, with this sentencing, with anything that has taken place. We have not. We are innocent. Absolutely, without any doubts whatsoever, we know we are innocent. Livingston Fagan declined to appeal his sentence, saying, the Lord would look after him. And some folks did appeal, many of them under a religious basis. And the government reiterated its call for maximum sentences for all defendants. And the judge entirely adopted the government scenario despite the jury's findings to the contrary. His characterization of the Davidians' beliefs, right, just laid it out. In sentencing, the judge turned the import of his jury instructions upside down. He had told the jury that they could not convict on count three unless they had found a defendant guilty under count one. The jury made a mistake and convicted seven on count three, but not count one. The judge then concluded that the jury had found a conspiracy after all, and bootstrapped count one into the lesser count three. He threw the book at them. So by reinstating convictions on the third count, the court brought this draconian sentence system into the court. And some very heavy, heavy court findings, right? These rulings. They added 30 years to the 10 years of voluntary manslaughter. Was it Reno's Avram, 40 years, plus $10,000 fine, Brad Branch, 40 years, $2,000 fine, Jamie Castile, 40 years, $2,000 fine, Mr. Feggin, who we talked about earlier, 40 years, Kevin Whitecliff, 40 years. On and on and on. But not one. No government agents from the 1993 Waco siege went to jail. Despite all the scrutiny, scrutiny, despite all the scrutiny, all the investigations, which of course are done under their guise, their watch, all the known accusation of misconduct, that was ultimately everyone was cleared of criminal wrongdoing for the deaths at that compound on that day. Now obviously, these podcasts are not all encompassing, right? You have to kind of pick the main story, go with it, because otherwise it would be 40, 50 hours. We'd have to do several, even the one they did on Netflix, was barely touched. And how many hours was that? The big picture is we continue to allow the government to get away with the tyranny that it does. And it has been doing so for the last, you know, 250 years. And we'll continue to do so because they know how to conquer, they know how to divide. And until we get everybody on board spiritually with the Lord Jesus Christ, it doesn't really matter. And that's what we should be focused on because our time here is limited. And the Bible says we will be persecuted. So you got to get yourself right spiritually, and everything else will just fall in place. And you won't sweat these things. But it's just so shameful that people support a government that does this type of evil. Next week, we're going to look into Oklahoma City, Timothy McVeigh, The Double Explosions. And of course, Terrence Yakey is someone we always recognize every year, who- how that story is not mainstream. You know, we've got several books going. We're editing book number two now. I think that's something, if I can reach out and find his family, what an important book that would be. But God bless you all. Thank you for your kind words, your continued support. Please stop by foundationsinfaith.net. Check out the radio there. We have a prayer wall there. A prayer is powerful, it sure is. So anyway, we'll see you next week. God bless you. Keep your head on a swivel, and Christ in your heart. Until we meet again, my friends, we will see you. You're listening to The Fact Hunter Radio Network. Just the facts, ma'am.