transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Hello, I'm BBC presenter, Myra Anubi, and this is The Interview from the BBC World Service, the best conversations coming out of the BBC, people shaping our world from all over the world.

Speaker 2:
[00:15] If you're not a little bit afraid, then you're not paying attention.

Speaker 1:
[00:19] We have never seen a people so united. Do not make that boat crossing. Do not make that journey.

Speaker 3:
[00:25] Being born in America, feeling American, having people treat me like I'm not.

Speaker 4:
[00:29] We're more popular than populism.

Speaker 1:
[00:33] For this interview, I speak to Dr. Gladys Kalema-Zikusoka, a Ugandan wildlife vet and the founder of Conservation Through Public Health, about an unexpected idea that helped pull mountain gorillas back from the brink of extinction. When she first encountered the gorillas in the 1990s, there were only a few hundred left. They were under threat from habitat loss and poaching, but also from increasing contact with human disease. But the solution she developed sits at the intersection of conservation and public health. It's built on the simple idea that protecting gorillas depends on improving the lives of the people who live alongside them.

Speaker 4:
[01:15] We don't only focus on the gorillas, we also focus on the people. With people, we improve the health of the people through community volunteers who are based in the villages where these people live. They're essentially community health workers promoting conservation with public health together. And they carry out a lot of behaviour change communication on good health and hygiene practices, the dangers of poaching animals, the importance of planting trees, and they also talk about the importance of having a food crop garden so that you have some level of food security or a cash crop such as coffee or tea. And so all of this is to make them self-sufficient so that they're less dependent on the forest to meet their basic needs. And also don't pick up diseases from poaching animals or give diseases to the gorillas. Because then if they're able to care for themselves, then they're able to make sure they shouldn't get proper health care and the gorillas don't get sick.

Speaker 1:
[02:21] Welcome to The Interview from the BBC World Service with Dr. Gladys Kalema-Zikusoka.

Speaker 4:
[02:27] The first time I saw a mountain gorilla, it was a moment I will never forget. First of all, when I got to Bwindi Forest, I had to spend a whole week not able to see the gorillas because I had a cold, a nasty cold. So when I finally got better, I was so eager to see them. So we went up to the forest with the rangers and tourists actually, we moved in the same group as tourists. Then we got to Kachupira. That very day when I saw a mountain gorilla, it was supposed to be in a group, Katendagiri group, but that day we could only see one gorilla. They couldn't locate the others very easily. So all we saw was one silverback gorilla. He was very calm and accommodating. He was chewing on a piece of bark. He also had a deformed hand. And they said to me, that's why they call him Kachupira, which means broken hand. But what struck me is that he was very accommodating towards us. We went a distance of five meters, which is the regulation at the time. He didn't move. He was very relaxed. And I looked into his eyes and felt a very deep connection.

Speaker 1:
[03:34] And that just reinforced what you knew that you had to help these gorillas.

Speaker 4:
[03:39] Yes, it did. It made me also realize how intelligent they were because when I stared into his eyes, he glanced back at me and we really connected. And it made me realize how intelligent and majestic they are, but how vulnerable they are.

Speaker 1:
[03:53] Now, let's talk about that vulnerability, right? What were the issues at the time that these gorillas were facing?

Speaker 4:
[04:00] At the time, the biggest issue the gorillas were facing was there were very few in number. There were only about 300 at the time, but the loss of their forest habitat. If tourism hadn't begun, their habitat would have disappeared and there would be no more gorillas. So the Uganda government got concerned about this, and so they upgraded it from a forest reserve where people could go in and cut trees sustainably to a national park where you're not allowed to go in. And so that meant the habitat was no longer being cut, but there is now a very hard age between the community and the park. And that's what characterizes most of Windy Forest, apart from the southern sector, where some tea was planted as a buffer crop. So the gorillas are very vulnerable, and at the time it was quite easy when you leave the community gardens to find them in the forest. And I could see how easily they were impacted by people. And later on what I found was, you know, gorillas kept going into community land once they lost their fear of people. And that led to further issues with the gorillas.

Speaker 1:
[05:10] Why were they going into community land?

Speaker 4:
[05:13] Because they used to range in those areas before their forest habitat was cut. So they were going back to their former ranges, but they found that people were living there or planting crops. And then it led to a lot of human-wildlife conflict. And actually, that was one of the first cases I had to handle as the first vet for the Uganda Wildlife Authority, is they told me the gorillas were losing hair and developing white-scaly skin. And so when I went to check on them, I found that they had scabies, which is a disease of poor hygiene and poverty. And it's a disease that is quite common in the rural areas. But it turned out that they actually did pick up diseases from the local community, because when they went into people's gardens, they found dirty clothing on scarecrows that people put out to chase away gorillas, baboons and other wildlife. And because it was from humans, which is a very closely related host, we share over 98% genetic material, and can easily make each other sick. It was easy for them to pick up the mites, and it spread quickly through the group.

Speaker 1:
[06:18] So it was clear you identified what the problem was.

Speaker 4:
[06:21] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[06:22] But you also had these two communities that had to live together or around each other.

Speaker 4:
[06:28] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[06:28] So what was your solution then? What did you do to try and help the gorillas, but also make sure the people were safe?

Speaker 4:
[06:36] Our solution then ended up becoming, setting up an NGO, a charity called Conservation Through Public Health, to be able to improve the health of the gorillas and people together. Generally to prevent disease between people and gorillas and other wildlife as well. So that was the main focus of Conservation Through Public Health. But right now what we do is we improve the health and the livelihoods of the local communities. Because as long as people are poor, they're going to keep entering the forest to poach and collect firewood, and they're going to end up making the gorillas sick or picking up diseases from wildlife in the forest. But we don't only focus on the gorillas, we also focus on the people. With people, we improve the health of the people through community volunteers who are based in the villages where these people live. And these community volunteers are called Village Health and Conservation Teams. They're essentially community health workers promoting conservation and public health together. We currently have a team of 430 Village Health and Conservation Teams. So they visit over 10,000 homes with over 50,000 people. And they carry out a lot of behaviour change communication on good health and hygiene practices, such as having a handwashing station outside your toilet, having a clean toilet, having a drying rack, so you don't dry your dishes on the ground, separating human and animal shelters. And they also talk about the importance of family planning, so they can have manageable families. And they don't have to enter the forest to poach and collect firewood. And at the same time, they talk about the dangers of poaching animals, the importance of planting trees. And they also talk about the importance of having a food crop garden, so that you have some level of food security, or cash crops such as coffee or tea. And we do teach them to do sustainable agriculture, so they have to cultivate the land properly and make sure that they can grow a lot on a small plot of land. And so all of this is to make them self-sufficient, so that they're less dependent on the forest to meet their basic needs. And also don't pick up diseases from poaching animals, or give diseases to the gorillas. The gorillas are picking up less diseases from people that cause diarrhea and things like that, so which we're pleased about, especially from the local communities. And people care much more about the wildlife. They're much more tolerant to gorillas if they go on their land. They are much more willing to protect the gorillas. We work closely with the Human and Gorilla Conflict Resolution Team. We call them Gorilla Guardians. And these Gorilla Guardians heard the gorillas back when they come out. So local communities are quicker to call them, to support them, so that because they realize the importance of the gorillas, and they don't want people to get hurt and gorillas to get hurt, or their property to get destroyed. And we find that they're poaching less because they have alternative livelihoods. They have food security. Some of them are coffee farmers. Some of them plant tea. Some of them have food crop gardens. So there's less need for them to enter the forest to poach.

Speaker 1:
[09:54] And what about the gorillas? I mean, when you started, they were actually critically endangered, right?

Speaker 4:
[10:00] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[10:01] What sort of difference have you seen there with their numbers?

Speaker 4:
[10:03] I'm very excited that the numbers of mountain gorillas have almost doubled since I first started working with them in 1996. I participated in the first gorilla census at Buindi, where we counted 300 gorillas to add to 350 in the Virunga to make 650. Over the past 28 years, the number of mountain gorillas has grown, I would say, and the last count in 2018 was 1,063 in total, which is a minimum of 459 at Buindi to add to 604 in Virunga to make 1,063. Last year, we had another census, and we hope to count more gorillas. So in 2018, there was IUCN, International Union for Conservation of Nature, took them off the critically endangered list, and now they're endangered. So they're one step away from extinction, and we're really excited about that. Although there's only just over 1,000 individuals left in the whole world, their numbers are steadily growing, and that's why IUCN felt that they can now reduce their status from critically endangered to endangered.

Speaker 1:
[11:14] And like you said, you know, there's still just around 1,000, probably a bit more.

Speaker 4:
[11:18] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[11:20] It's good what's happened so far, but it's clear that a lot more needs to be done.

Speaker 4:
[11:25] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[11:26] That's definitely a challenge, because there are still very few gorillas.

Speaker 4:
[11:31] Yes, there are still very few individual gorillas, very few. We still really need to protect them, because their numbers need to go much higher than that.

Speaker 1:
[11:41] What more do you think needs to be done to get those numbers to rise?

Speaker 4:
[11:47] I would say we still need to continue with what has worked well. Very intentional community engagement. When Windy became a national park, they made sure that local communities, most of the people hired to work in the Windy Forest are from the local communities. They know the forest better than anyone else. Yes, many of them were poachers or came from poaching families, but now they were earning a better living, protecting the wildlife rather than killing it. And so they were the best protectors of the wildlife. Actually, we called them born again poachers. Now they are called reformed poachers.

Speaker 1:
[12:24] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[12:24] Yes. So we also work closely with them.

Speaker 1:
[12:26] They are preaching the gospel of conservation.

Speaker 4:
[12:31] They're preaching the gospel of conservation. Another thing that was done is that some of the money from the tourism, some of the money from the guerrilla permit is shared with the local community.

Speaker 1:
[12:41] And does that actually go into the community?

Speaker 4:
[12:44] It does. 20% of the park entry fee and $10 from every permit goes to the local communities. And the community are excited about it and they're feeling it. They're happy that money is being shared with them. Another thing that happened is that there are lots of small businesses around the park. Some people sell crafts, some food, some accommodation. And so, entrepreneurs within the community are also benefiting a lot from tourism.

Speaker 1:
[13:12] You're listening to The Interview from the BBC World Service with me, Myra Anubi. I first came across Dr. Gladys Kalema-Zikusoka last year at a conference in London. In a room full of people, she spoke softly and passionately about her life's work with these intelligent animals, as if she was talking about children. I was intrigued. Months went by, but her story stuck with me, so I had to go to Uganda to see her work in action. There's something about Dr. Gladys. She's got a quiet confidence and an inviting smile that can shift the energy of a room. When we met for this interview, we sat outside at her coffee shop, right beside a busy road. Cars driving by, people moving about. But when she started speaking, everything seemed to slow down. Her story cut through the noise. It was like the sounds of the city faded in the background and I had suddenly been transported into her world, deep into the forest to meet the animals and the people that she was working hard to save. She's got the most fascinating personal stories as well, like how she organized an airlift operation for a mountain elephant. In the end, it didn't feel like an interview. It felt like catching up with an old friend. That's the power of Dr. Gladys. It's a rare quality. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Dr. Gladys Kalema-Zikusoka. I would imagine tourism would also be a problem for these gorillas. Yes. Not just that they're interacting with them, but these are people who are going into their spaces and constantly really. How do you mitigate that from impacting the gorillas?

Speaker 4:
[15:02] Yes. Tourism is a necessary evil because the only gorilla subspecies that has tourism, which is the mountain gorilla, is the only one which is growing. The Eastern lowland gorillas, the Western lowland gorillas, and cross-route gorillas, the numbers are going down and there's very little tourism to these gorillas. So why is tourism important? It makes people realize that the forest is good. It can give them an economic benefit. And that's very important in an area where people are so poor. And so tourism basically has lifted people out of poverty. It's created jobs from the government, the Uganda Wildlife Authority, the lodges provide jobs for the community, the tourism lodges, the local Bindi Community Hospital, NGOs like Conservation Through Public Health, and others that are based at the park, provide jobs for the community. And so they provide jobs. On top of that, tourism has created businesses for the community. Tourists come and buy crafts, they buy food, they stay in their accommodation, they go on walks. The coffee farmers love meeting tourists. And all of this makes them feel that it's worth protecting the gorillas. Even if a gorilla comes to their garden, they won't harm it because they know these tourists are helping us. The money from tourism that is shared with the local communities has helped to build schools, clinics and roads. And some tourists actually sponsor children directly. And so a lot of children have received good education or have received an education because of tourism. So the communities now are so reliant on tourism that I think they can't even live without gorilla tourism, which is also a problem in itself. And it became a big issue during the pandemic when tourism disappeared overnight. And for six months or so when there was no tourism in the park because of global lockdowns, also in Uganda, poaching went up again. It went up very high. And we talked to the communities through the Village Health and Conservation teams, the reform poachers, to them tourism is going to come back. We have to make sure our gorillas survive. And then we got them to start having fast growing seedlings ready to grow. We started that program where they can have something to eat and stop using tourism money to buy food. Tourism money can help to pay school fees and things like that, but not to buy food, which is a basic need. Because when tourism began, people stopped planting in their garden, surviving how they used to. Because in one day if someone takes your luggage, the gorillas, as a porter, they earn the same amount of money as they would in a month from selling food. So they just gave up what they normally did and just resorted to tourism. And when it disappeared overnight, we told them, it's fragile, you have to keep doing the things you used to do before, but do them sustainably. And tourism money can be for other things. It has its advantages and disadvantages. But another thing that tourism has, specifically for the great apes, is that because we are all great apes, humans are great apes, just like the gorillas and chimps, and we share 98.4% genetic material with the gorillas, and we can easily make them sick. So from the very beginning when gorilla tourism began, the greatest threat to gorillas became disease, from tourists who get close to them and can cough on them and give them a flu or a fatal disease like COVID-19. And so that has been a big concern. And now since the pandemic began, everyone has to put on masks. And because you don't even know if you have COVID or not, but even during the pandemic, the gorillas in Virunga, which is a higher altitude than Windy, had much less flu or spiritual disease because people were wearing masks anyway. So we've all realized it's very beneficial and for the gorillas to remain forever. And as you saw when you visit the gorillas, you get really close. Yes, there's a 10-meter rule, but sometimes people break the rules, but sometimes the gorillas break the rules. And so as long as people are wearing masks, at least you're reducing the risk of respiratory disease spread to the gorillas.

Speaker 1:
[19:16] And I suppose from the gorillas as well to people, can things spread as well?

Speaker 4:
[19:22] Yes, things can spread, except it's much easier for us to go to the doctor than for the gorillas to go to the doctor. And they're much fewer of them than us.

Speaker 1:
[19:31] Well, they have you now. I wonder, you know, it's been 28, almost 30 years of doing this work. What are the challenges that you still face today despite everything else you've been able to solve?

Speaker 4:
[19:46] Well, the challenge is to continue. I've been working with gorillas for 30 years now. And it's amazing, amazing working with the gorillas. More than half my life. I would say that the challenges remain. Before gorilla tourism began, the biggest challenge was habitat loss. Then when tourism began and we gorillas could get close to people, so people can pay money, the biggest threat became disease, which is the reason why we set up conservation through public health, the main reason. But now we're having another challenge of habitat loss. Again, not enough habitat. Because as the numbers of mountain gorillas are growing, they need more space. They need more space. They need more space and they're becoming, there's more and more human-wildlife conflict because they actually need a larger place to range. As the groups split and the numbers grow, they need more space. But remember, people have cultivated right up to the edge and now there are lodges. With the tourism growing, the number of lodges are growing and the gorillas are going to be locked in. So our biggest challenge now is, one of the biggest challenges we have right now, if we're going to ensure that the numbers of mountain gorillas grow beyond 1,000, is to increase the protected habitat for the mountain gorillas. So we've spoken to some landowners, a number of them, and they want to sell their land, over 200, close to 300 landowners want to sell their land, and we're raising money to be able to expand the protected habitat for the gorillas, so that the numbers keep growing. If there aren't enough gorillas, then everybody is going to lose out.

Speaker 1:
[21:31] But for you as an individual, how does it make you feel, seeing all this work? How does that feel for you?

Speaker 4:
[21:41] I'm seeing all this work, I'm really proud and fulfilled that I've helped to make a difference to the survival of the mountain gorillas, helped to bring them one step away from extinction, and I've helped to uplift the communities bordering the park. And so I just feel I want to keep going. There's still a lot more to be done. We want to scale up to other places beyond Uganda, to other countries that have gorillas, to other protected areas, to get a one-in-one approach going in other places, working with local partners. I still feel there's a lot to be done, but I'm very proud about what I've been able to accomplish so far.

Speaker 1:
[22:29] Thank you for listening to The Interview. You'll find more in-depth conversations on The Interview wherever you get your BBC podcasts, including episodes with Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelensky, and Antonio Guterres, Secretary General of the UN, plus many others. Until next time, bye for now.