transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:08] Welcome back to Feeding The Mouth That Bites You, a weekly podcast guide on parenting teens and launching them into the world. I'm Cynthia Yanof, and as always, I'm joined by psychologist and author Dr. Ken Wilgus. Dr. Ken, how's it going over there?

Speaker 2:
[00:22] Not bad, beautiful weather. How are you doing, Cynthia?

Speaker 1:
[00:25] We're great over here. I've been thinking about this. I just feel like everyone deserves to know a little bit more about Dr. Ken, and I was thinking, I'm gonna ask you once in a while, maybe not every week, it's not a new addition to the show, but here we are. What was your first concert that you went to?

Speaker 2:
[00:43] I think it was Yes.

Speaker 1:
[00:48] No, you can answer.

Speaker 2:
[00:49] Oh, that was the answer. Good. Oh, that's good. Who's on first? Yeah, I think I saw Yes in Dallas, and I was a high class rock and roll fan. Obviously, that goes without saying. Yes, that was very fancy. And Yes had a, the lighting's thing was like a giant crab with three heads, and the heads raised up and that's where each of the band members' lighting was. It's very similar to a scene from Spinal Tap, which, if you haven't seen it's a parody on rock and roll bands, and they get stuck in this weird cocoon thing, it just malfunctioned and it reminds me a lot of this kind of progressive rock cool that could be ridiculously funny if it goes wrong. So, yeah. Yes, what was yours?

Speaker 1:
[01:53] My first was you two. I mean-

Speaker 2:
[01:55] That's a pretty great one to go to.

Speaker 1:
[01:57] Now, listen, I didn't mean to show up your yes, but that's where we made-

Speaker 2:
[02:02] I think it's kind of for levels that you were at, that's fine. You probably could have handled Rick Wakeman and all them.

Speaker 1:
[02:10] Couldn't get to yes. I was busy that day. Okay, and then here's the next one. If you could go now to a concert, see anybody alive or dead, who would it be? Who's the dream concert now?

Speaker 2:
[02:21] The problem is that now you can see some of the people I'd want to see, but they're almost dead, so you probably shouldn't go. So I think that makes it harder. Yes, yes. I still would go back to you too if need to. I mean, we went to see them and loved every minute. You can't really go see The Stones anymore. It's just, I had tickets to The Stones, but my grandfather had his 100th birthday, 90th birthday. Something silly that I had to go to.

Speaker 1:
[02:52] I thought you were going to say his funeral.

Speaker 2:
[02:55] No, that would have been different. Anyway, who would you go see?

Speaker 1:
[02:59] I don't know. I was thinking about that. I mean, should I say Bethel Music and Go Christian? I don't know. U2 is always good. I like Sting. I went to, you know, my daughter, I took my daughter to Taylor Swift back in the day. I'm not a huge Taylor Swift fan, but that girl can put on.

Speaker 2:
[03:16] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[03:17] Put on a concert. So I don't know. There's so many options. Well, that I'm just going to take a hard turn. I just wanted to start with that.

Speaker 2:
[03:24] But I'm just going to say, I'm waiting to see you work that into this.

Speaker 1:
[03:29] I'm going to take a hard turn into residential treatment facilities.

Speaker 2:
[03:31] OK.

Speaker 1:
[03:32] No, but yeah, that's what we are going to talk about today. We are going to talk about kind of the non-negotiable slash things. It's not even expectations or rules like this has to happen for you to live in our house kind of things, because there are hard situations. And we don't obviously make light of that at all, because there are some very difficult things that we face as parents and that you see all the time in your practice. And so let's just talk about that for a minute. We talk a lot about rules for sleepovers and rules to drive your car. But what are really like if when things are getting rocky and tough and you're like, do I allow them in this house? Like, what are the things we're looking at?

Speaker 2:
[04:11] Yeah, you know, parents can get into discipline issues with teenagers that get, they're bad, it feels like we're always arguing, there's always, they're grounded for something, whatever. And it can kind of feel like things are out of control. But sometimes what happens is that you're in the midst of battling all this feeling of out of control and things actually are out of control and parents don't even realize it. In other words, there are a few times that parents need to know, oh, we have crossed a line, not that they're breaking our rules that we can't allow, but that this teenager is really not under my control anymore. I cannot handle this. Teenagers have to, certainly older children even, but certainly teenagers have to have a certain level of self-control, self-management, that if they can't do that, as I've told many parents, you guys are not mental health workers. You can't be in charge of, if you can't even trust your teenager to do the following, then it's really not a time to get mad at your teenager. It's a time to sit down with a white flag and say, we're not sure you're going to make it to the end of high school in this house, and make sure you mean it. It's not a threat. Parents do that. They're like, you know what? We're going to send you to a military school. Just as a little aside, you can't send your kid to a military school against their will. Military schools do not do that anymore. I had a kid sent to a military school, and he was sent right back home after he drank half a bottle of cough syrup. They don't do that, you know, tough it out with your kid. Your kid has to be moderately in agreement. I've had kids go to a military school that knew that if they didn't stay at the military school, their next step would be residential treatment, where you do have to go. But regardless, whether it's send you off, that's never an empty threat. Don't make that threat that you can't fall through.

Speaker 1:
[06:11] Yeah, so we're not obviously talking about, like, if you're cussing in the house or things like that. I mean, of course we don't want those things. Or, I mean, I don't know, maybe they've experimented with pot or something like that.

Speaker 2:
[06:26] Yeah, they came home drunk. You don't send them off because of that.

Speaker 1:
[06:30] So what are the things that you would say, like, this is where you're evaluating, if you're seeing these things, you need to evaluate, like, are we off the rails enough that we need to go and do something different? We're not mental health workers. What are those things?

Speaker 2:
[06:43] So I've been surprised that when you do this over and over again, that line really consists of three basic things that you have to have, you have to be able to have from a teenager or you probably can't let them stay there. The first one is you have to basically know where your teenager is that they will be where they say they are. I say basically because, you know, kids fudge around, like you went to that girl's house when you said you were going to your friend's house, you didn't go to the place we said to, of course, you restrict them for that. But I'm talking about a teenager that is regularly gone, like, especially at night. You cannot, I've literally had parents try to keep a teenager from leaving the house when they're not allowed to. I had a father who was sleeping in the hallway outside of his daughter's bedroom. I've certainly had a lot of security systems used and so forth. Once you're at that kind of level where you think, we are the ones keeping our teenager here, not our teenager who has at least basic judgment to know that if I leave the consequences will be huge and I do not want to pay that. If that kid is just going anyway, regularly gone, regularly not where they said they'd be, gone overnight. You're very quickly to the, I don't think you can live here. That's where you have to call the law enforcement. I have a lot of experience with law enforcement. If you're in a small town, they tend to be more responsive but still not terribly effective if they're trying to be tough with your teenager. If you're in a big city, it's very complicated. Most places, parents can be surprised that my 16-year-old has run away. Okay, well, that's a runaway. My 17-year-old has run away. Well, we'll put that in our missing persons file, but that's not a runaway. That happens in a lot of states. So the first one is, you have to be able to basically know that your teenager is where they say they will be, virtually, you know, with some exceptions. That would include, for example, if your kid is grounded, and they never stay grounded because they just leave. Well, okay, you're pretty quickly out of your control. You can't make them stay at your home when they're told when they have to. That's the first one. They just, they're out of your control. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:
[09:05] Okay. Yeah, that makes total sense. And so, and I think the key there is this is a routine issue, not once they snuck out. Once I figured out they weren't at school, once I figured it's routinely. And yeah, if you're the sleeping on the floor is a good example. I mean, I think all of us have the alarm systems or think about that or the cameras or whatever. I'm just trying to keep everybody honest around here. But a difference between I'm just keeping everybody honest versus literally they're leaving. I have no control.

Speaker 2:
[09:34] That's right. So that's the first one. The second one is pretty much out of control drug use. So if you've got a kid not vaping, by the way, a lot of kids vape and then we got it and we put it away and, you know, they're punished for it. And then, oh, no, two months later, they're vaping. I know that's bad. But no, I'm talking about intoxicants, drinking, especially drugs that we have said no to. And we continually, especially continually find things in the house that show that they are regularly using drugs and have no interest in stopping. They're, you know, they're really, it's fine that, you know, other states have legalized it, you know, which teenagers will tell you that. Things that show you they're in real denial and that they have no intention to stop. They just, their intention is to get sneakier. Then pretty quickly, there'll be a line there that you need to think about, you know, this kid may not be able to stay here. This is particularly true if you have younger children. You need to be able to draw that line and have relative certainty. A lot of times younger siblings, they just know, like, you know, my parents don't know, but my older brother is smoking weed all the time, you know, that kind of thing. It's really, it is not only affecting that teenager, but it's affecting your younger kids. That's also a line that you may have to really say, you know, we don't. And again, the key is that this meeting you'd have is a sad one, is that we are concerned that you will not be able to stay here. And so that's the second one, basically out of control, continued drug use.

Speaker 1:
[11:13] Okay, and let's just get very clear on drug use, because I think everyone would say definitely, I mean, if we have cocaine or heroin or whatever, mushrooms or whatever, but pot is one of those things that if a parent's listening to this and they're like, yeah, he smokes pot all the time, I know adults smoke pot all the time. Yes. I mean, where do you land on that?

Speaker 2:
[11:34] Well, first of all, that's an important point that no teenager under no one under 21 is it legal anywhere and it comes up. You know, that's a different topic is about the kind of denial that teenagers use that parents are like, well, he has a good point. No, he does not. He does not have a good point. The state that it is legal in is still not illegal for your 16, 17, 19, 20 year old kid. It is not legal and that is the kind of thing that if you don't draw a heavy line of, you know, we have told you this, you've already been restricted over and over and over. And now we're finding it's still quote just marijuana, but you've got a grinder. That's a pretty sophisticated kind of drug, you know, paraphernalia, things like that. Do you really want to consider letting them know you may have to go, you may have to finish high school elsewhere. And then the third one is school. You have to have a kid that can basically attend school. If they are refusing, regularly not going, regularly missing, you know, it's funny how states do this. That's one of those that I think most of the time the state leaves it to parents, like parents actually get fined for not doing all they can to keep their kid in school. So that means that those same parents need to know, I'm not going to go back to court again and talk to that judge. Those are for the parents that are delinquent parents. But for parents that don't have control over this adolescent, then that's the same thing that the community is saying. Like yeah, if you can't get them to go, that's a kind of criminal thing. And again, with a teenager, you'd sit down and talk about, we know that you don't like school, we know that you skip with your friends and that you keep telling us it's no big deal. But we are not kidding, it is a big deal. And you may have to go somewhere else to live for treatment where they can make you do these things. So, but the key is that's about it. I mean, that's, because of that, sometimes parents are surprised that, you know, to find out, as I keep saying to them, you guys are not mental health workers. What happens is, take for example, the kid that runs off, takes off, whatever. What ends up happening is that then you're afraid to get into a big blowout because the kid, and certainly physical violence is one that would fall in that. I think parents know that. But what ends up happening is that if you can't trust your kid to be able to do just that basic, then you'll start backing off of everything. Then, you know, you didn't empty the dishwasher you're supposed to. Well, if we say something, it's going to be a big thing and then she's just going to take off. And so, and the next thing you know, you're not really enforcing, you know, your own rules. And especially if you have other kids, they're all watching. So those are like that.

Speaker 1:
[14:27] Let me ask you a follow up on the school thing. You're talking about literally like truancy. What about the kid that goes to school and is either failing everything or the kid that goes to school and gets in trouble is and is suspended or, you know, and all those alternative programs, whatever, does that still fall under or are we literally looking at truancy?

Speaker 2:
[14:49] I think that's a good question. I think you're mostly, you're literally looking at truancy. In other words, as long as your kid is still within that school's discipline options, which I must say, I'm a big fan of public school, but I'm really disappointed in, there's a lot of schools that seem to just kind of not do anything. I think it's partly because in their defense, I was on school board for years and years. In their defense, a lot of parents object to schools getting firm with their kid, but most of the parents I work with are happy for the school to get firm, but they don't really have much. So, you know, they skip and they just leave you a message that your kid didn't show up. What about, you know, but if a school has Saturday school and detention, I'm all about that. And if the kid is regularly having that and struggling to pass, those are important, but that's not necessarily the sit down and say, you may not be able to live here thing.

Speaker 1:
[15:50] Yeah. Yeah. OK. And so, by the way, I saw the Breakfast Club and they had the Saturday detention.

Speaker 2:
[15:56] And that was, I don't think realistic. I'm just saying, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[16:01] It's kind of how I modeled my parenting, but now we know. OK, so we've got these physical violence was the one that you kind of said at the end, that you said most people probably know. But let's talk about for just a second. Physical violence, like literally, they're hitting, threatening to hit, bearing up on you with a fist out, like, I mean, is, is there any time where you're like, OK, well, that was just a little outburst or I mean, how do we look at that with physical violence?

Speaker 2:
[16:30] I think it's really important for teenagers to know that there's none of that. That's just a little bit of a we got a little overboard. That's not an unusual thing where parents don't realize that teenagers, especially boys, not infrequently, if you keep thinking of them as well, my little junior in high school that plays defensive back in his 6'2. He came over with a little friend. Those are not little friends. That's not a little, that's a man. It's very common that teenagers need to know that you are scary, and you may not be scary here. That goes without saying, then, that parents should not do the scary thing, particularly fathers. It can be something that many fathers don't even think about, but it's just kind of there that, well, you know, their mom can't get them to do it, but when I get home, they'll do it. I always ask, why is that? What is it that you have in your arsenal that your wife didn't have? And if it's a kind of a general intimidation thing, that's not the power that we use. General physical intimidation is not going to prepare a young adult for the community. We don't, you're not allowed, even though if you watch YouTube, you might forget. You're not allowed to beat up each other. You're not allowed to physically require or make your teenager do something. As I've said over and over again, if you're still doing that and being intimidating, then you just look like a bully, which is what your children think you are. But for a teenager to be intimidating, certainly, and I think it should go right up on, wait, did you just walk toward me? Are you walking toward me? Why are you walking toward me? That's going to be a big problem, but I've already told you about this. So you have an extra day of grounding because you walk toward me. If I see that kind of thing, we're going to have a real problem because you may not be intimidating to us.

Speaker 1:
[18:33] That makes sense. I would assume that that all also is the same for a sibling. I've heard of situations where the sibling is concerned, and so they put a lock on the door, like a stronger lock, so the sibling can feel safe at night. I mean, that's the same thing, right? If there's a threat of violence.

Speaker 2:
[18:52] But if you have a teenager that you're having to lock a door to keep them from being violent, then there's a real issue with the teenager. I don't like that solution. That makes it seem like this teenager is really a six-year-old and doesn't know how to not fight. We've told you that if you harm your brother, again, even if he deserved it, you know, older kids are always like, well, he deserved it. Then you will not be driving our car for a month. You need to find a better way to handle this stuff. Putting locks in, you know, to me is implying that you'll be safe with this young adult next door that cannot control himself. This is one of the things, this is a sidetrack. It's one of the things that bothers me about unrestrained or not careful use of neurological data. Neuropsych parents are told in a way that makes them think, well, my 17-year-old, his brain isn't developed enough and he's, you know, can't keep from being violent with his sibling. Oh, no, no, no. We've never discovered something in brain research that, quote, explains why you can't keep a teenager from being violent. Absolutely, you can't. Maybe a small child, but not a teenager. There's that's a real problem. So, yeah, physical violence, you know, you really do need to discern. All of these things would be something you'd see a therapist before. You'd see a psychologist first, and we can let you know if this is out of control or not.

Speaker 1:
[20:24] Okay. And then let's say that there is these one of one or all of these are being broken, and it's time to consider a residential treatment center. That's what RTC is. That's the that's the acronym y'all use. That's right for. Okay. Talk to us a little bit about that. Let's start with this. As a parent, I must be a failure if we have to resort to RTC.

Speaker 2:
[20:48] Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny, I used to think that I worked at a residential treatment. First thing out of college when I was before I got into grad school. And you go to residential treatment. This was in Austin. It was a really good place. I had 16 to 18 year old boys. And and you know, you'd think, oh, these are bad kids. I loved them. They were just fascinating. And and we had very strict structure. This is when you get up. This is where you put your dirty clothes. This is about this is a long time ago. This is when you get your cigarettes. That's that's a thing we did back then. But but they talked, they calmed down with the structure. And then and they would talk about their homes. And I remember thinking, man, these poor guys, their parents, who what kind of parents would have would have these sweet? They weren't sweet, but they were good kids. And then Parent Day would come along and the coolest good folks would be there. And suddenly I was confused, like, wait a minute, I thought I had this worked out. Well, it's not ever that way. It is never a situation that a parent causes this. And I think we, I hope we overdo it in saying that you are arrogating to yourself responsibility you do not have. You are not able to make a teenager out of control. One of the bigger things is just that you are able to not signal when they are out of control and make sure they know that. But that parent has not caused their teenager to be out of control. That's not your fault. And holding on too long, like misreading that, is often a cause of not seeing that this is out of my control because you are still trying to right this ship that is halfway sunk and not realizing that this isn't under your control, either cause or in repair.

Speaker 1:
[22:48] Yeah. Okay. And so, you don't just start by calling, start calling the local ones, right? Like you start with going to get a counselor first or...

Speaker 2:
[22:56] Yes. It needs to be evaluated by a psychologist. And we all know these places, the area, because things change rather a lot, the scene. Residential treatment is by and large still quite safe. You'll hear lots of stories about things that were dangerous or abusive in the past and so forth. And the fact that you're reading about that, the fact that things are being controlled is part of what's the good news. It's the same thing at schools. You hear about abuse in schools, yeah, because we're done with it. And if we hear about it, we're going to do something about it. So, it's not a major risk. The issue, though, is when will it be useful? What will it require? And a good place can really settle down. It takes out all of the noise a parent can't do. We're not 100% consistent. Maybe that's why they don't follow. But boy, RTC, we're 100% consistent. We were good at it. We did not yell at kids ever. But we also didn't take manipulation. Kids had to sit and talk to each other. The kid that got into a little bit of a fight with the other kid had to go that evening, oh great, here we go. And we're going to share and we're going to talk about it and talk about how we felt and all that stuff. And we could make them do that. It was what you did there and it was very therapeutic. Parents cannot do that. But you need a psychologist to help differentiate between, know there's still a lot of environment here at your home that can be more consistent and that would probably bring things down. I've had many teenagers where my job was to sit down and say listen, you and I have met a couple of times, I've already talked to your parents, and I need to let you know they are looking into a place for you to live. So now is your chance to, you need to get mad at them, tell them, I hate your guts, but don't run away from this home anymore or you're not going to live there. I know that you think their deal about drugs is stupid, but you need to not do anything for six months anyway, like nothing, or you aren't going to stay home. You give them a chance to show that they can control themselves. And it happens, I don't know, 50-50, you know, that in fact, that kid, and the key is for them to believe it. If you've had a parent that has over and over said, that's it, you're out of here since they were a little kid, they don't believe you, and then they don't take it seriously. But if you can get their attention and realize that if you have the self control, this is the time to do it, because your parents cannot control this, then that gives you a chance to see whether they can or cannot.

Speaker 1:
[25:56] Yeah. What's the longevity in these types of facilities? I'm sure there's a broad time, but I mean, is this something that can be as short as like six weeks and as long as a year? Or how does that work?

Speaker 2:
[26:06] It's rarely as short as six weeks. Those are tend to be, there can be some kind of outbound programs in the summer that can be real good as far as kind of providing a therapeutic outdoor type setting for some weeks. But for real residential, you're almost always looking at a minimum of three months and sometimes a year or longer that really gives them the needed opportunity to refocus outside of their environment into a very steady environment and learn how to manage themselves. So it tends to be at least three months to a year or longer.

Speaker 1:
[26:49] Yeah. Okay. And then so if you have a teen that is like you're saying, kind of headed down this path, it feels like or at least one of these that you've talked about, things is not happening, the school or they are doing drugs or there's some abuse or whatever the things are, they're running away. Are there conversations to be had before you even get to that next level? And you put it beautifully when you said, the counselor hopefully will step in and be like, bro or sister, you're headed out. But is there conversations we should be having as a parent saying, like, listen, these are the four things that are a no go and you're breaking it? Or are we just lecturing for no reason? I mean, or do we get our head this kid can't control themselves? There's no need to have a conversation. Like, how do we just approach it practically on a Tuesday night where they were out last night again or they were smoking pot? Like, how do we address that with them?

Speaker 2:
[27:39] Well, that's a good way to put it. I think that, number one, you want to stop making your empty threats if you're one of those parents. That, you're not going to live here if you're going to do that. Well, what do you mean? An eight-year-old might go, oh, no. But a 15-year-old is going to go, what are you talking about? Because they know you can't make uncle so-and-so isn't going to let me live there, whatever. So stop making empty threats. But number two, if you do have what looks like the beginning of a pattern of really out of control behavior, this is the third time now that you left school and didn't tell us you came home, but you didn't tell us you were doing it, whatever. Or certainly the third time we've found drugs, you're pretty quickly, I guess my advice would be, don't be afraid to show them that you have a white flag that you might be waving. Like that's a sad conversation. That's more, like I say, show them the limits of your power. But it's like chess, don't make that move if it's not real. Those are the things we've talked about. The real things would be, you are again out at night and we didn't know where you are. You again are not doing school and refusing to do school, or you're again involved heavily into drugs and we literally don't know, we think you're doing it all the time. That kind of thing, or certainly if you've been violent, don't be afraid to have a conversation adult to adult that says, we're afraid that you won't be able to finish out here, and we hope that you can't because you are too big, too independent for us to be treating you like a six-year-old where we pick you up and take you back home. You look in the mirror, dude, you're big and we can't. So don't be afraid to do that if needed, and certainly don't make empty threats. It's never good for any child age to hear, we're not going to put up with that in this house.

Speaker 1:
[29:43] You've seen, assuming in your practice, you've seen success stories of that over and over again. I'm sure of people that like, it feels like this is probably worst-case scenario. I mean, they're never going to do time one day. It's never going to, this is the end. If I acknowledge that we need some form of treatment, this is the end of the end. But have you seen this success and for families this being a really great viable option?

Speaker 2:
[30:07] Yeah, you know, the hard thing is that you make this choice because you have to, because you don't really have the ability for them to stay home. Which means that there are cases where residential was a kind of failure. The kid that goes off for, I had a kid went off for, I think it was 10 months, it was over six months because of drug and alcohol use and came home and celebrated by getting drunk. And it was like, wow, that didn't work. So there are some definitely, it is, again, you don't make that choice because, wow, there's this place that they do this thing and it's a guaranteed turnaround for the child. That's not why you do it. But for those that feel like hope is lost, I'm just going to have to send them off to this place. I've had some really great examples of kids who came back. I remember telling one girl, I said, you know, it's only been like six months, but you're like 18 months older. She was, she knew herself. She was aware of where things had gone way off before. Her faith had strengthened more than her own family, really. And it was just amazing to see what happened in her own life, separate from her family. And if nothing else, it's a good reminder. These kids aren't just about what we do and don't do with them. Kids have their own life. And residential is a very healthy setting, if you have to, for them to be able to really grow emotionally, if that's going to happen.

Speaker 1:
[31:37] Yeah, that's good. Do you remember back in the day when there was a kid that struggled or, you know, a troubled teen, if you will, they'd send them sometimes to grandparents? Like, what do the grandparents ever do? Or they go to Aunt Wilma's for six months? What did Aunt Wilma ever do to y'all?

Speaker 2:
[31:53] I kind of think maybe Aunt Wilma was criminal in some way. I don't know. No. You know.

Speaker 1:
[31:59] I just sent mine to Uncle Ken.

Speaker 2:
[32:02] Hey, I've had that offer over and over again. The answer is no. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:
[32:06] Oh.

Speaker 2:
[32:08] And they'd sell the kid to me for X amount per pound. I appreciate that, but no, you can do this yourself.

Speaker 1:
[32:16] Okay. Good information. All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Ken. We appreciate it.

Speaker 2:
[32:20] Thanks, Cynthia.