transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:00] It's funny, because I would often hear critics of occultism cite the Emerald Tablet and say, you know, as above, so below, that's the occult thinking. And anybody who says as above, so below is clearly an occultist. And I'm like, well, didn't Jesus say that? Isn't that the prayer that we have? That God's will be on earth as it is in heaven? Isn't that what as above, so below means? But at the same time, I kind of understand, I think that the way you presented it is the best way of understanding it. And you see that in the development, for example, of technology in the Bible, which is that on the one hand, you have a kind of Enochian cane line of technology, which is something like stealing the fire from heaven, like stealing the secrets from above, bringing them down to earth in order to serve our purposes and to serve our greed. But then you have another tradition, which is the tradition of building of the tabernacle and of the temple, which is also in some ways to have certain things from heaven be revealed to us so that we can build something in the world that is a reflection of heaven. And so it seems like, like you said, in some ways it's just really about what is directed. And so when you look at alchemical traditions, you have some traditions which are more about the notion of finding the philosopher's stone for its own sake. That is, what can we see in the world that is a kind of image of what is above, and how can we meditate and participate in those images in a way that purifies our soul? And then on the other hand, what can we get? How can we turn this stuff into gold so that we can make more money and have more power? This is Jonathan Pageau. Welcome to The Symbolic World. Hello, everyone. We are here with our local Symbolic World CS. Lewis expert in general. So Annie Crawford is here with me. She's going to be speaking at the Symbolic World Summit. She's already given courses for us on CS. Lewis, and just a great, just medievalist and thinker involved in education, so I'm happy to talk to you, Annie.
Speaker 2:
[02:23] Thanks, Jonathan. It's always so good to see you and talk with you.
Speaker 1:
[02:27] Well, I can't wait for the summit, and the people that are going to be there, because we have the official people, we have the people on the list, having Father Josiah and Mary Harrington in the same space, to me is like a weird, exciting thing. But there's going to be all these other people that aren't named that are going to be there. I know Jordan Hall is coming. People from around the little corner are going to come. And so I think it's going to be even more fun than last time for that reason. And so I'm definitely looking forward to it.
Speaker 2:
[02:57] Yeah, I'm excited about it. I think, I've mentioned this to you before, but how I think about living in this digital space is through the motto, let the good serve the better and both serve the best. And the best is incarnational presence, right? And so finding ways that are good, online connections are always aimed towards and serving what's best, which is being together, which is why I'm so glad that you've bravely been willing to host another summit so that we can have, we can have that time of really gathering together and letting that personal presence infuse our conversations throughout the rest of the year. So it's important. I'm doing this.
Speaker 1:
[03:36] There's a huge difference between someone you've actually met in person. It's hard. I mean, you don't have to even say that. But once you met someone in person, it's just, it's just a different vibe. Even after that, when you encounter them online, you have something, there's a connection that happened. So yeah, definitely looking forward to it. So what I want to talk to you about today is, you know, you sent in your title for the talk, which was Cosmic Alchemy in That Hideous Strength. And I thought, oh my, Annie's going in that direction. And so obviously, we don't want to give away your talk, but I would like to tease out a little bit what CS. Lewis' relationship to alchemy is. You know, I was telling you a little bit before we started recording that I rarely reference alchemy and I don't reference it because in the modern world, it's become associated with occultism and they're all kind of, and it might cause confusion amongst people about what it is we're talking about, but there's a lot of the symbolism of alchemy, which is very relevant to the things that I talk about and to the symbolic world. And in the proper context would be an appropriate vehicle. So that's why I was excited. I'm like, all right, Annie, you can open the door for us. You can get all the arrows and then we'll be fine. So maybe tell us a little bit about what was CS. Lewis' relationship to alchemical ideas?
Speaker 2:
[04:55] Yeah. Well, his relationship to alchemy is complicated because it is a complicated symbolism. It's very old. It is itself very complex. And then it moves in and out of those controversies. It moves in and out of orthodox Christendom and occult stuff. And so it really is complicated. And Lewis, as a medievalist, had a good grasp. I think, like you, he was subtle about how he used that symbolism, knowing that it could easily, it does easily lend itself towards occult fascination. But I think, you know, if we dig into, like, all symbolism, it really is always rooted in the nature of creation and just the way things work, right? Scripture itself talks about your faith being tested by fire, becoming more precious than gold. You know, the refiners fire symbolism is itself in scripture. It's rooted in the way creation is made. We take these corrupt mixed or, you know, and we refine it in fire and testing and hardship and suffering and it becomes purified, saintly, shining. So that just basic symbolism is not occult or evil or weird. It's just part of creation. Okay, but then it's, you know, this is the thing about symbolism is it really is always polyvalent and can be twisted toward the light or toward the dark. And so the whole history of alchemy, I think partly because of the connection to gold and the desire for wealth, right? As opposed to some other forms of symbolism which don't have as practical of an application is why the practice of alchemy, the symbolism of alchemy is easily corrupted because it's easily turned toward. It's early roots are connected with sorts in Alexandria, the Greco-Egyptian at that time. So in Alexandria, you had this mix of philosophy, Greek philosophy coming in, the metallurgy tradition and then a rise in commerce. So hey, if you can make things look like gold, if you can make false gems, you can sell them. So I think that connection to commerce, to material advantage, is what makes it easily corruptible. Again, so you asked me a little bit about Lewis. I think Lewis is aware of all of that. So he in that hideous strength, one thing we'll talk about is the way he uses the alchemy with this polyvalency, because you could see the NICE as a kind of alchemy, right? We're trying, it's very relevant to our world today. We're trying to turn matter, base matter into pure spirit for material advantage in a pseudo eternal life. That's the NICE and their corrupt alchemy. But you also see the alchemical symbolism in St. Anne's with Ransom, who is an Apollonian figure. He's clearly using the imagery of Apollo in order to describe Ransom and his role. Right? So you could see that hideous strength is really this tale of, it is structured, the tale of two cities, a tale of two kingdoms, and in that way, a tale of two alchemies, where we are asking the question, how do we transmute from death to life? And at the NICE, we have a false and demonic form of transmutation through occult-driven tech, but at St. Anne's, we have a sacred, a holy transmutation of moving from death to life through our union with Christ, right, as symbolized by the marriage with one another. So it's really, I think, a fascinating and potent symbolism that if you can keep your head on straight and not get lured away by the occultic connections, if you can keep your head on straight, there's actually a lot of fruitful potency in the symbolism to unpack together.
Speaker 1:
[09:16] Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I would often hear critics of occultism cite the Emerald Tablet and say, as above, so below, that's the occult thinking. And anybody who says, as above, so below, is clearly an occultist. And I'm like, well, didn't Jesus say that? Didn't Jesus say, isn't that the prayer that we have, you know, that the kingdom of heaven be on earth, like that God's will be on earth as it is in heaven? Isn't that what as above, so below means? But at the same time, I kind of understand, I think that the way you presented it and the best way of understanding it is that, and you see that in the development, for example, of technology in the Bible, which is that on the one hand, you have a kind of Enochian cane line of technology, which is something like stealing the fire from heaven, like stealing the secrets from above, bringing them down to earth in order to serve our purposes and to serve our greed. But then you have another tradition, which is the tradition of building of the tabernacle of the temple, which is also in some ways to be, have certain things from heaven be revealed to us, so that we can build something in the world that is a reflection of heaven. And so it seems like, like you said, in some ways it's just really about what is directed. And so when you look at alchemical traditions, you have some traditions which are more about the notion of finding the philosopher's stone for its own sake. That is, what can we see in the world that is a kind of image of what is above, how can we meditate and participate in those images in a way that purifies our soul? And then on the other hand, what can we get? How can we turn this stuff into gold so that we can make more money and have more power?
Speaker 2:
[11:09] Yeah, exactly. Which is the fundamental distinction in terms of all conversations about magic technology. You can think of conversations around the Lord of the Rings and the orc-like magic versus the elven magic, right? And that you really do have a tale of two magics, where one is how do we live within the natural order, that there are latent potentialities and powers given within God's divinely ordered world, and how do we live in harmony with those as co-creators? You know, that's white magic, that's good technology. And the other, the dark magic, the dark technology is in, the good magic is incantational, which canto means sing. It means to sing along with the song of the universe, the order of the universe, we sing along with it. Dark magic is invocational. We're going to invoke or call into ourselves powers that aren't natural to us or rightly given to us, in order to exercise dominion over, power over, which is inevitably always going to twist nature. As we try to exercise power over it, and that's the tradition of dark magic, of bad technology, of bad alchemy. I think it's really an apropos topic. Because of everything that's going on with AI, we've really got to grasp the difference and take time to think carefully of what does it mean to sing along with the created order of the world serving those latent powers and potentialities as rightly ordered toward the kingdom. And then where are we compromising? Where are we getting confused? Where are we being tempted to bend the order of the world, to exercise undue dominion over it? These are just urgent conversations to have right now.
Speaker 1:
[13:08] I said I would never do it again, but here we are. We are announcing the Symbolic World Summit in May, 2026. I have so many great people around me and I'm just excited to do it, even though I thought it would be crazy to do it again.
Speaker 3:
[13:21] Our summit is going to be from May 14-16 in Broadview Heights, Ohio. You can buy tickets at symbolicworldsummit.com. Keynote speakers this year are Father Josiah Trenham and Dr. Mary Harrington, which is a combination nobody knew that they wanted, but I think is going to be absolutely incredible. Of course, Jonathan and I will be speaking as well as several people from around the Symbolic World community.
Speaker 1:
[13:44] A lot of people that you like, that you've seen, are going to be there, are going to come. We're going to have book signings. There will be a lot of time for people to meet and to greet. We're also doing supra as well. And so come and join us. We can't wait for this and we're excited to meet you in person.
Speaker 2:
[14:07] These are just urgent conversations to have right now.
Speaker 1:
[14:11] Yeah. And I think that, you know, if you meditate a little bit on these differences, you kind of see them pretty clearly, which is that, let's say, the difference, like you said, between prayer and invocation. You know, if I pray, you know, I am submitting my will to God's will. I'm asking God, I'm saying, you know, here are my needs, your will be done, but this, I'm exposing, you know, my needs and my suffering to God in the hopes to have God answer my prayer. But if you look at the occult practices, you know, things like demonology or these different types of invocations, in some ways, there's these two opposite things that happens in the stories. It's always, I try to call down some kind of spirit in order to control it, to make it do my will, and then it flips, and then the thing rules over me and makes me do its will. Whereas in prayer, you actually have symbiosis. You have a kind of participation, right? You have a synergy between me asking God my needs, but also understanding that I submit to His will, and my will gets refined as I realize that in my prayer gets transformed. Obviously, a mature Christian doesn't ask for a Ferrari, but you can understand why a naïve or an early Christian would ask for a Ferrari, because their will hasn't yet been purified, and as they ask and they see the answer, and they kind of move through that cycle, at some point they may be asked for the salvation of their friends rather than ask for a Ferrari. At least you hope that that's what would happen.
Speaker 2:
[15:48] Yeah, and note you use that word purified, right? That's a metaphor of this alchemical process, right? Which maybe we can talk about a little bit is how the story structure, right? So this is a summit on the cosmic epic, or the cosmic story. What's the relationship between story and alchemical process? If you want to unpack that a little bit, if you think that'd be helpful.
Speaker 1:
[16:14] Yeah, yeah, let's do it. I mean, it's funny because I asked Annie, I said, I don't want to give away your talk. She said, you can't give away my talk. There's so much to say that there's no way that I could give away my talk. So please tell us everything you feel would be relevant, and then we'll look forward to doing what you say also at the Summit.
Speaker 2:
[16:30] Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I feel like, akin to Richard Rowland, right? That there's always too much to say and too little time, if you notice that... We both have that problem. Yeah, so I love that you're doing the Cosmic Epic. So, you know, your first Summit, the first Summit, the Cosmic Image, which, you know, I understand is looking at the structure of the world, the image of everything, that Cosmic Mountain structure, which we can think of, you know, to me, that's how we see the world in general revelation. And then in the coming of Christ and special revelation, that Cosmic Structure is revealed to be the cross, right? The mountain, the cross, it's the structure of the world, which we meditated on at the first Summit. And now the second, it's very appropriate to move to the Cosmic Story, because we're taking that structure, how does that structure move through time? Right? Story, that it's symbolism moving across action in time, that space and time. And so, you know, there's a structure to our movement through time, just as there's a structure to the order of the world. And, you know, I think we, it's very simple and facile, it feels that way, but it just is true. You know, that old plot chart that most of us learned somehow, it's like the only little bit of gold that was present in most of our public school educations, right, this plot chart, which seems very simple, but it really is the structure of every story. You begin with a creation, a place and a people, and then you encounter a problem, and the problem develops until a climactic resolution. And then always at the crux of that climax has to be sacrifice. You know, the problem is a disordering and the order is restored when we make right sacrifice, and we sacrifice lesser things for the higher things, and that brings the world restored, and that gives us our comedic structure. If we fail to make proper sacrifices, then we fall into death and tragedy, and we have our tragic structure, right? And what fascinates, you know, Jordan Peterson talks about how this is even the structure of attention. That I exist, I have a problem, I go out to solve that problem, I attend to something, and then that is result, it's the structure of attention, it's the structure of every movement within our world. But what fascinates me about looking at that story structure through alchemy, it's alchemy like the hero's journey, okay, like the hero's journey is just a different lens through which we can see that structure and it will open up different particularities latent in the structure. Alchemy likewise is a lens through which we can look at that structure because our stories are really experiences of transformation, right? As I go out into the world and exercise right sacrifice and then return to myself transformed, these stories are transformative experiences of meaning. So I'm fascinated by the symbolism of alchemy as a way of understanding that transformation of my soul, as I participate imaginatively in these right sacrifices. So that's the connection between the story and the alchemy, because the stages of the alchemy follow that story structure. We begin with our raw material and then you encounter a problem, and you have to be broken down. It does help to think about it through the hero's journey. You know, the hero, he's the prime material. He enters into the crucible, which is the extraordinary world, and he goes through a series of trials, right? Where sin, dross is broken off through challenge, through suffering. That's your negrado or your black stage of alchemy, where the ore is broken down into that raw material. Then you enter into the white stage, which is where it's purified and strengthened and seeds of goodness are fermented within the soul to prepare it for that red stage, that final ordeal, which is the final fire of testing wherein it is finally, you know, coagulated or consolidated into gold or the philosopher's stone or whatever precious material, you know, is the aim of it. So, this symbolism is a way in which we can think more deeply and in more particular ways about what's going on through the story structure as, yeah, as we're...
Speaker 1:
[21:16] Yeah, and like you said, it really is just the... It is just the, you could say, the process of transformation of anything. You know, it's actually how anything kind of reveals itself from one point to the other. You know, you can imagine, if you think about it, in terms of the classic example of you're in a room, the fire alarm goes off, and all of a sudden, you have to leave the room, right? So you have to dissolve the state that you're in. Like whatever it is you were doing, you have to dissolve it, or else, that's why they tell you in the airplane, don't take your bags, folks, because if you don't, if you take your bags, it means you haven't understood, really, the type of dissolving that you need to do. You don't take the old world into this new reality, because it's going to hold you back, it's going to pull you aside from this new purpose. And so you have to dissolve your attention, you have to dissolve your purpose, and then you have to be able to concentrate on the thing that needs to happen, and then you have to do it. And when you do it, that's that final fire, because even if you have the seed, even if you know what it is that you need to do, doesn't mean you're going to get through the test. It doesn't mean you're going to make it through the door as you run for the door as you leave. And so you can see that, but obviously this is an extreme example, but every time you do something, every time you move from one email to the other, for goodness sake, that's what you have to do. You have to let go, let the old thing kind of fall apart and not pay attention to it. Then you have to move towards the next thing that you're doing. And in that moment of transformation is the greatest danger, right? Everybody knows that between two tasks is where distraction is the most possible, where you can get lost between two moments of attention, you could say. A teacher knows that too. For going to move from one task to the other, man, that moment between the two tasks, obviously that's where the kids are going to start to talk amongst themselves. Obviously that's where they're going to start to do all the things that aren't related to school. You have to be able to really catch them and kind of coast them through so that they don't get lost in that distraction. That's the same pattern, right? It is the hero's journey, but it also can be represented in terms of transformation of matter in the basic alchemical principle. So there's nothing, so I mean, I think that the biggest point for people to say is that this can obviously be used towards evil if the thing that you're aiming for is just making money. But the process itself is simply the process of transformation, which has been identified over centuries of wise people just attending to how the world functions and how transformation happens.
Speaker 2:
[23:58] Yeah. I love the way that you frame that. It makes me think about how is the process then distorted. Because I've had the, yes, in teaching and in I ride dressage, I ride horses and the hardest part of that training is always transitions. Transitions, transitions, transition is exactly where the energy can fall apart and not be properly redirected toward the next good, right? You know, and as you're describing that, I'm thinking, well, isn't that what our technology does to us? How often we're transitioning more and more and more and more. I got to go from email from email, from scrolling from post to post to post to post. Even just our embodied life though. I got to go to the grocery store. I got to do, like everything feels, the element of transition is really accelerated right now and heightened. As you're describing that, I'm like, is that a means in which we're being broken down and our ability to gather ourselves with purposeful attention towards what's good, right, is largely being dissolved, corroded. In that way, then, this distraction, this massive fragmentation of distraction through that breaking down process is being then harvested by something else that wants to focus its attention towards its own transmutive goals, right?
Speaker 1:
[25:29] Yeah, we know that for sure. I mean, it's wild that we've come to a world where this tool, like this computer that I'm on right now with my screen, is both the place of focus and the possible place of levels of distraction that never existed in the last century, in the history of the world. And so, and like, as you said, it's like, and all of those distractions, whether it's social media or whatever, or YouTube videos or whatever, all of those are going towards someone else's treasure, like someone else's purposes, whether it's propaganda and social influence, or whether it's just money, it's mostly just money. It's mostly about just kind of taking your gold and putting it in their purse. And so, I think that, like you said, being attentive to the alchemical process right now and kind of understanding it is a, it's something that will help us even as people. So I cannot wait for you to dive deeper in that hideous strength because, you know, obviously I've read it a few times in my life, when I read your description, I thought I had never realized that this was, that it had an alchemical aspect to it. But then as soon as I saw it, I was like, well, obviously, obviously that's true. It's just, I never thought of it. So I cannot wait to hear you break it down for us at the summit.
Speaker 2:
[26:53] Yeah, I'm excited about it. As a final teaser, I'll just throw out a teaser for people, think about who the head of the NICE is, the ostensible head, right? It's Al-Khasan, an Arab radiologist who poisoned his wife, right? So I mean, right there on the nose, Lewis is giving us a signal of the alchemical theme that's going on. Then here's the second teaser because I'm really saying it's a tale of two alchemies, right? So Al-Khasan signaling that false alchemy. And then the first time we meet Jane in the first chapter, Jane, our heroine, who will travel to St. Ann's to meet with the Apollonian ransom, right? When we first meet her, she is reading John Donne's poem, Love's Alchemy. Right? That's the poem that she's reading, right? So he's clearly signaling this in a really subtle way, right? I won't trigger all of our anxieties, but in this subtle way.
Speaker 1:
[28:00] I guess not that subtle, once you point it out. I'm like, that's not very subtle. That's actually, you know.
Speaker 2:
[28:04] Isn't that how symbolism always works, Jonathan? Isn't that how symbolism always works? Like, we're just blinded to it. And I feel like so much of the work that I do more and more feels like pointing out, hey, water is wet. The sun is bright. You know, like, what is wrong with the world that all this energy has to go into pointing out, like, what for millennia was like common sense understanding of the world, right? So yeah, it's obvious once you point it out, but that's the state we're in. We're illiterate. We're symbolically illiterate. We cannot read the meaning of the world. But, you know, one of the wonderful things about teaching literature is this is where we can practice it because literature is symbolically composed. And so, you know, as we read great books together, practicing understanding the way they work and the way that symbolism composes the meaning of the story, it heals us. It transforms us. It transmutes us, right, towards people who can again see the meaning of God's story and God's poetry. So we can, in that, find health and eternal life, ultimately.
Speaker 1:
[29:14] All right. I'm getting ready. So just in a few weeks, I can't wait for this to happen. So if you haven't bought your ticket yet, folks, get your ticket. We can't wait to see you in person at the Symbolic World Summit and we'll talk to you very soon. Thanks, Annie. Bye, everyone. If you enjoyed these videos and podcasts, please go to thesymbolicworld.com website and see how you can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase. So go to thesymbolicworld.com and thank you for your support.