transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:01] Hi guys, welcome to an episode of Illegally Brunette. I'll be your host today, Emily Simpson, with Shane. Okay, first of all, before we get into the bulk of what we're gonna talk about today, we do have an update on a case we talked about previously. So if you have not listened to this episode, it is the Anna Kepner case, which was the, I'm sure you remember this case. It was the young girl that was found on the cruise ship. So Anna Kepner was 18, and she was found dead under her bed in the cabin she shared with her stepbrother during a November 2025 cruise. The death was later ruled a homicide by mechanical asphyxiation. This was what we learned afterwards.
Speaker 2:
[00:43] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[00:43] So the FBI has been investigating, and TH, they don't release the name because the stepbrother.
Speaker 2:
[00:49] Yeah, but they're trying him as an adult, but they don't wanna, they're like, we're gonna treat you like an adult, but sometimes we're gonna treat you like a minor.
Speaker 1:
[00:56] Yeah, that is true. That is contradictory, that they won't release names because he's a minor, but they're gonna try him as an adult. This is the 16-year-old stepbrother of Anna. Anyway, he was initially arrested in early February.
Speaker 2:
[01:08] How old was Anna again, 18?
Speaker 1:
[01:10] She was 18, he's 16, and they were sharing a room, a cabin together on a cruise ship, and then she was found dead underneath the bed by housekeeping. He was charged in juvenile court before prosecutors sought adult charges. This was back in February of 2026, so only a couple of months ago. TH, I remember finding his name originally. I think it was posted somewhere, but now I can't remember what TH stands for. But he has been indicted as an adult by a federal grand jury on first-degree murder and aggravated sexual abuse charges in connection with her death aboard a Carnival Horizon cruise ship, which was sailing in November of 2025. Prosecutors allege he sexually assaulted and then intentionally killed her. I would assume this is what I picked. First of all, as parents, I don't know how I have stepchildren, but obviously you have two daughters, but they're female. But I don't know if I would combine step siblings in a cabin when they're teenagers.
Speaker 2:
[02:15] You mean mixing genders?
Speaker 1:
[02:17] Yes, when they're step siblings and she's 18, he's 16.
Speaker 2:
[02:21] Well, I don't know. There has to be a history there though. It can't just be like there's no signs whatsoever. And then aboard this cruise ship, all of a sudden this guy comes on to her and wants and kills her. I mean, there's nothing that leads up to that.
Speaker 1:
[02:37] No, there is because we talked about it in a previous episode. There were things where she had said she felt uncomfortable with him.
Speaker 2:
[02:42] So in that case, I wouldn't mix them.
Speaker 1:
[02:44] That's the point. That's my point. My point is I don't know if I would mix that period because you're talking about, I mean, you're talking about a 16 year old boy and 18 year old girl sharing a cabin together on a cruise ship. It's very tiny and small. They have to share a bathroom. She has to get ready in front of him. I mean, that's just weird to me. But the fact that there was also some indication that he was obsessed with her and had had feelings for her, that we talked about this in a previous episode. And then the parents were okay with them sharing. My takeaway, because we don't know details, would be that he made some type of advancement or tried to do something.
Speaker 2:
[03:21] He was rejected.
Speaker 1:
[03:22] She rejected him. He became angry. Maybe there was a struggle. He ended up strangling her and then hid the body underneath the bed.
Speaker 2:
[03:29] You put all that together yourself.
Speaker 1:
[03:31] I'm brilliant like that. So I feel like that's probably what happened. So his arraignment is scheduled for April 22nd of 2026 in Federal Court in Miami, where the indictment will be read and he can enter a plea. TH has invoked his right to remain silent and a court motion currently limits law enforcement from questioning him further about the case. Although he is charged as an adult, he was previously released under juvenile supervision after his February arrest and was not held in detention. Prosecutors are now asking a judge to revoke that release and have him taken into custody pending trial because the case has been transferred into adult court.
Speaker 2:
[04:11] So he was released under whatever benefits there are for minors being charged with a crime.
Speaker 1:
[04:16] Right.
Speaker 2:
[04:16] And now that he's being tried as an adult.
Speaker 1:
[04:19] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[04:20] They want to go backwards and say, okay, he shouldn't have that benefit of being released to his parents.
Speaker 1:
[04:24] Exactly. So we'll see what will happen with that. And if he's convicted, TH faces a possible life sentence. Okay, we're gonna move on. In this case that we're gonna talk about for the bulk of this episode, so interesting, fascinating, all the things. And also thank you guys, because I got so many DMs where you were all asking that we talk about it and recommending it. So it's a new Netflix series. It's four episodes. It's called Trust Me, The False Prophet, and it's new to Netflix. It's a documentary that follows Christine Katas. She's a former Mormon who infiltrates a fundamentalist community to expose Sam Bateman, who is a self-proclaimed prophet who forms a breakaway group from the FLDS. I think, first of all, you have to start with Warren Jeffs. This is an offshoot of that. And there's a documentary on Netflix, I forget exactly what, Sweet Pray, Love, or Love...
Speaker 2:
[05:35] A prequel?
Speaker 1:
[05:36] That would be the prequel, yes. This would be the sequel.
Speaker 2:
[05:38] Is that guy still alive?
Speaker 1:
[05:40] Yeah, and he's still in prison.
Speaker 2:
[05:42] Is he still receiving inspiration?
Speaker 1:
[05:43] I'm sure he is. And so this guy, Bateman, gains power and manipulates followers into giving him their wives and daughters, including minors, under the guise of religious authority. Despite early resistance from local law enforcement, Christine secretly gathers evidence of abuse, eventually helping the FBI build a case against Sam. With the help of insiders like Julia Johnson, we'll get more into Julia later. I think Julia is really the hero in this entire story. The investigation leads to a raid, arrest, and ultimately Bateman's conviction. Though the case reveals the lasting psychological control he maintained over many of his followers. So really like we were talking about, it starts with Warren Jeffs. This FLDS community was left without leadership and I think that they didn't really know what to do. They were still, and I know he was still controlling a lot of what was going on.
Speaker 2:
[06:41] Basically the seat was open and it was a matter of some guy, some other creep to think, I want that chair.
Speaker 1:
[06:46] Exactly.
Speaker 2:
[06:47] And so all they, I'm guessing you're gonna tell me, but all he had to do was basically speak up and start manipulating people and declare as being the next person in charge.
Speaker 1:
[06:55] Right, and you know, I do know that they followed Warren Jess for a long time because he was still giving, I don't know what you want to call it, off orders or he was still manipulating that community from within prison. But this guy, Sam Bateman, who, when people describe him, he's not even like that savvy or smart or like any kind of stand out.
Speaker 2:
[07:17] Like politics, you don't have to be, you just have to be the loud one.
Speaker 1:
[07:21] Right. So Christine Katas was previously a practicing Mormon. When she was young, she met a man who convinced her that he was a modern day prophet and she married him. After leaving that situation, she felt lost herself. So she spent the next decade studying cults and psychology. Her goal became helping communities affected by cult influence, especially the FLDS. So she's interesting. This is what happens is to give a little background. She was previously a Mormon. She was married to some man that considered himself a prophet, and she shows emails in this documentary of communications from her husband, where he's controlling her and using religion as a control and all those types of things. She finally gets away from him, but then she wants to study why she was maybe so easily manipulated.
Speaker 2:
[08:12] Do you know how long she was with him or anything? Or do they have kids together?
Speaker 1:
[08:15] I don't think they had children together. Well, I don't know. She does have a daughter because her daughter is in the documentary, but I don't know if that was his child. After the Warren Jeff situation, she decides that she wants to go live within that specific community and help those people.
Speaker 2:
[08:30] She had been on one side of it, right? So she thought there's something going on here and there's clearly a power of these people over the victim.
Speaker 1:
[08:40] I think her original intent in going and living there with them is nothing more than to actually to help and to study and to learn and to be. She says something really interesting. She says, and I'm not sure where in the documentary, but I really took this away. She said that she never went with the intent of judging or telling them that they were wrong in their thoughts or their religion or their choices.
Speaker 2:
[09:01] Well it sounds like she just wanted a bird's eye view and be a fly on the wall of what's going on.
Speaker 1:
[09:05] No, she wanted to, she infiltrates and lives among them.
Speaker 2:
[09:09] For what purpose? To study them, right?
Speaker 1:
[09:12] Maybe, not really to study. I think she really feels like she can go and help. I think she wants to just be kind of.
Speaker 2:
[09:19] Like go in and then rat them out and help or go in and try to give the women like more power and ability and a voice and teach them.
Speaker 1:
[09:27] Well, I think in the beginning, cause her husband, so her husband's name is Tolga. He's Turkish and he moves there with her. So they move from Las Vegas to Colorado City, Arizona. This is where this FLDS community is. Tolga is a music producer and a photographer who is documenting their move and the FLDS community around them. So their goal is to create their own documentary about this group, but the members are very wary of Christine and Tolga at first, because I mean these are outsiders that are coming to live within this very structured community where all the women dress with the dresses and the hair.
Speaker 2:
[10:04] Basically running a criminal enterprise and then someone's like, hey, could we come in and document this and live with you? So of course he's going to have reservations.
Speaker 1:
[10:12] Right, so at that time the FLDS previous prophet, Warren Jeffs, is in prison, but he still controls a lot of the community. He instructs during this time period that she's there, he instructs followers to stop marrying and having children despite traditional expectations of having one child every year. You know, and I don't really understand that other than some people explained it in this documentary that he, he issues this order that there's no more marriage. And I think he said no more sex period, not just have children. But a lot of, when I was watching it, the interpretation was that he was in prison and so he just didn't want anyone to like enjoy life. So he was like, if I'm going to be in prison.
Speaker 2:
[10:52] That's like if we go to prison and then we tell the kids, no more spending money.
Speaker 1:
[10:56] Right.
Speaker 2:
[10:58] Get out of the house.
Speaker 1:
[10:58] No more candy and watching movies. And right. So many FLDS members are forced out of their home due to state action.
Speaker 2:
[11:08] Can you put a moratorium on sex?
Speaker 1:
[11:10] Yeah. And marriage and, you know, he's like, I'm in prison.
Speaker 2:
[11:14] So first, first he probably doesn't he kind of manipulate everyone talking about some higher level of sex and all this crazy stuff and polygamy, like they're a higher order. And now it's like, no sex for you. Yeah. Stop. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[11:28] Right. So Christina and her husband Tolga, actually they end up, they do, they actually end up gaining the trust of this community and they become beloved members of the community as they fight to protect FLDS members. So a lot of them are getting evicted. I'm not sure why they're getting evicted. I don't know. I mean, I guess it has to do with probably not paying rent or whatever.
Speaker 2:
[11:48] Yeah. Usually that's the case.
Speaker 1:
[11:49] No, I know. But I don't know why a high number of FLDS members, I'm not sure exactly what the background is of what's going on in the community, but they, Christina helps some of the women start their own business because they sell home goods, like things that they've made.
Speaker 2:
[12:06] Okay, like crafty?
Speaker 1:
[12:08] Yeah. And so she helps them, I forget what it was called, but it was like some kind of little cottage that was within this community, where I think they were selling baked goods and things that they made, homemade things. And so she helps them kind of be more self-sufficient and learn how to operate a business and things like that. So I truly believe that her-
Speaker 2:
[12:27] She's trying to strengthen the women and help them probably have more confidence in themselves.
Speaker 1:
[12:30] And they're documenting everything because he does, her husband Tolga does have a camera and he's documenting everything. So that's what's so interesting about this documentary, is that everything is caught on video, but their original intent in being there isn't to document Sam Bateman and the sexual exploitation that's going on. It's to document the community and help them. But it just so happens that it shifts into something else.
Speaker 2:
[12:57] She wasn't going in there to address the criminality of anything. She was probably going in there trying to just see if she could improve the structure or write the morale.
Speaker 1:
[13:09] And not to judge, which I think is very important because that's why they gain her trust. Or she gains their trust because she never says things like, why do you believe this? So she's there to protect the FLDS members by helping them raise money, garner supplies, and even opening a local store for the women to sell homemade items. This is when, so Christine meets Sam Bateman after he asked for help following an eviction. So, many of the FLDS members did not have respect for Sam Bateman. He wasn't wealthy and he wasn't a prominent member in the church. So that was my point when I was talking about how he rises to this level of profit is that he wasn't a standout. You know what I mean? I feel like within the community, there's certain men or women that take on leadership roles that people respect and probably go to for counseling or leadership. And he was not one of those people. No, they really, I forget what they call him, but she even said something like a schmuck or something. You know what I mean? He wasn't wealthy. He wasn't a leader. He wasn't in a leadership type of position. He wasn't someone that people...
Speaker 2:
[14:12] So why did people invest in him then or follow his lead?
Speaker 1:
[14:17] That is the biggest question, but we will get to that. I don't really think there's an explanation for that.
Speaker 2:
[14:22] Well, they lost their leader, right? And so that space was open. And if these people are... If this community is groomed to follow one person, not just follow like this person gives guidance, follow like he is the law. You must do as he says. And then that space is gone. Now they're looking for some type of leader, you know?
Speaker 1:
[14:46] Well, let me ask you a question.
Speaker 2:
[14:48] Uh-oh. I don't want more than one wife, no.
Speaker 1:
[14:51] That wasn't my question, but that's good to know. Why don't you make a distinction between FLDS and LDS? Because here's where I think the problem lies in the mass. When you talk about the public, when you say Mormon or LDS, I think people, if they don't know much about the religion, their mind goes to what they see on the TV or news or documentaries, and it's always the FLDS because that's a very...
Speaker 2:
[15:18] Well, that's more of a story to follow.
Speaker 1:
[15:19] Because that's salacious, right? That's more of a, that's the story. That's Warren Jeffs. That's the polygamy. That's the living on the compounds. That's the women that wear all the dresses that look the same and don't wear makeup and don't...
Speaker 2:
[15:32] And have the fancy hairdos.
Speaker 1:
[15:33] I don't know if they're fancy, but if that's the way you want to describe it.
Speaker 2:
[15:36] Subjective.
Speaker 1:
[15:37] Yeah, you're right. But I feel like if someone doesn't have much information about the LDS Church...
Speaker 2:
[15:44] They'll just combine the two.
Speaker 1:
[15:45] Right, like if I say to someone that doesn't know me very well and I say, oh, my husband is Mormon, and they don't know much about the religion, I think they think compound, dresses, strange, polygamy, all the things.
Speaker 2:
[15:59] So you get a bit of a reaction. I get a reaction when I tell people my wife's on the show housewives.
Speaker 1:
[16:06] Oh, yeah?
Speaker 2:
[16:07] Yeah, they casually take a step or two back from me. Oh, they do.
Speaker 1:
[16:10] I can understand that. So Sam disappears from town for a while. And then when he comes back, he returns and he brings back a new, much younger wife. This goes directly against Warren Jeff's demands that he issued earlier that said no getting married, no sex, no children. Then Sam arrives, I don't know what the timeframe in this exactly. It didn't really explain in the documentary. I was kind of confused because they were interviewing one of the FLDS women about Sam and she basically tells a story about how he shows up outside this, I believe it was this cottage place where they sell all these home goods and things. He arrives with a flatbed trailer with 20 women on it. He just drives into town.
Speaker 2:
[17:04] He just imported them?
Speaker 1:
[17:05] I don't know. There wasn't enough background. I was like, I don't understand. What did I just miss? This man marries one girl and then I believe he marries the sister later. But then he shows up with a flatbed trailer and parks it and it has 20 women on it and they're all singing. There's minor children on there and they're all with him. So the FLDS community... Where did they come from? I don't know. That's my question. I don't know. But he shows up back in town and he has a... And it's on and told us, the husband videos. I mean, there's video recordings of him pulling this trailer up.
Speaker 2:
[17:41] This is just... You have someone that has no conscience, no regard for decency of any kind. So they will manipulate left and right and they'll say whatever it is and get these people to follow them. And that's it. You know what I mean? It's like you can get anyone to do anything as long as you have no conscience and you don't care and you have no guilt or remorse and you just say whatever needs to be said. Those people are scary. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[18:07] So the FLDS community largely rejects him, but Christine, this is the woman, right? She's the woman and told us her husband maintain contact. She maintains a good relationship with him because she's realizing she wants to gain information.
Speaker 2:
[18:21] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[18:22] I mean, like where did these minor girls come from? I believe it's like 20 women and I would say up to half of them are are minors and look like minors. Like they're around 9, 10 years of age. Even on the show, they don't blur them out because now we have the technology. They digitally alter their face, which is kind of creepy in the documentary.
Speaker 2:
[18:41] Is it just so the viewer doesn't have to see a blurry face? Well, that's dumb.
Speaker 1:
[18:45] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[18:45] They should blur it because I think blurring sends a signal that these are minors and it's inappropriate and we shouldn't be exploiting them.
Speaker 1:
[18:53] Right. So I didn't like how they didn't blur them anymore. They just digitally altered their face into like something else instead of blurring them in order to protect their identity.
Speaker 2:
[19:03] What if the day comes where it's digitally altered and it actually looks like someone?
Speaker 1:
[19:07] Like Annabelle or something? Yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 2:
[19:11] Or like they forget to click on one face and they didn't alter that one, but they don't know the difference because they all have faces.
Speaker 1:
[19:16] I know. I thought it was kind of odd.
Speaker 2:
[19:18] One day we might be able to wear glasses and then you see things as you wish they are. You just live in that. You could wear glasses and then our kitchen is renovated. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[19:30] So you don't have to pay for it.
Speaker 2:
[19:31] Right.
Speaker 1:
[19:31] So you're getting me those glasses.
Speaker 2:
[19:33] I could wear glasses and I could program it so it looks like you got a facelift or whatever else it is. Beauty treatments that you want. You don't have to get any beauty treatments.
Speaker 1:
[19:43] So I look like Carmen Electro when you put the glasses on?
Speaker 2:
[19:45] You don't have to get your hair done. You don't have to do anything.
Speaker 1:
[19:48] Yeah. That's scary though.
Speaker 2:
[19:50] And then you will look at, yeah, no, no, it's better.
Speaker 1:
[19:54] Why? You would like to live in some digital world where you just wake up every morning, you put glasses on and then it just puts your big gulp in front of you.
Speaker 2:
[20:01] Well, I'd have to, you don't really taste.
Speaker 1:
[20:05] No, I understand. But okay, so you walk out the door. I look like Carmen Electro. Where are the kids? They're gone. They're in college.
Speaker 2:
[20:12] They're smiling and happy.
Speaker 1:
[20:14] Yeah. Happy to see you.
Speaker 2:
[20:15] They have their glasses on.
Speaker 1:
[20:17] There's no dogs in the house.
Speaker 2:
[20:19] Yeah. I don't see dog hair everywhere.
Speaker 1:
[20:21] What's parked in the driveway when you walk out? Not a flat bed with 20 women in it.
Speaker 2:
[20:27] No, no, no. But do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:
[20:30] Yes, I know. You're saying that we're just going to get to the point where we put glasses on and our whole world is digitally altered to what we want.
Speaker 2:
[20:35] In a way, it will be like The Matrix.
Speaker 1:
[20:36] All right. Let's get back to this. So Christine is invited to a dinner at Sam Bateman's home, and the wives perform for her and Tolga. There are growing rumors. This is what Christine is hearing. There are growing rumors that Sam is marrying underage girls. So Christine reaches out to local law enforcement and contacts the police, and others, I believe, had previously reported concerns as well. However, the local law enforcement cannot act because there is a lack of concrete evidence. At this point, all they're hearing is rumors, right? That he's allegedly married to these younger girls, even though...
Speaker 2:
[21:11] Isn't that enough of a, like...
Speaker 1:
[21:14] You know what? I think it's very hard for the police even to infiltrate the FLDS community. They're clearly not wanted there.
Speaker 2:
[21:19] Yeah, I think that's more what it is.
Speaker 1:
[21:20] It's towards the end of the documentary.
Speaker 2:
[21:21] They probably have large properties.
Speaker 1:
[21:23] Yes, and they all protect each other. They all know to be silent, and they don't talk.
Speaker 2:
[21:28] What I imagine once police start to drive up or authorities come, they alert each other, they have procedures in place.
Speaker 1:
[21:34] Right.
Speaker 2:
[21:35] Because if you call right now, you call school and you say there's a bomb under Classroom 4 and a desk, they're going to be like, well, we don't have enough. That's not enough for us to do anything. No, they're going to go search. They're going to clear it out because that's a big deal.
Speaker 1:
[21:50] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[21:51] So this should have been a big enough deal that they do something about it, or at least start to look into it. But you're right. I think they know that's an uphill battle.
Speaker 1:
[21:59] Yeah, and they can't get a search warrant based upon someone calling and saying, I think there's some rumors that he's married to underage girls.
Speaker 2:
[22:05] So it might have been more of a go back and get us more, so we can really crack down on these people.
Speaker 1:
[22:11] So Christine starts to learn that Sam is leading a breakaway sect called the Samulites, and he recruits key male followers. This is the part where I get confused because there are three other men that are involved in this. It's Torrance Bissline, Liddell Bissline, their brothers, and then Moroni Johnson. He convinces them, I guess, that so he claims that Warren Jeffs died in prison, and that now Warren Jeffs is communicating with him from the beyond, and that now he is the prophet who's issuing the orders.
Speaker 2:
[22:44] That means these people don't have access to the Internet.
Speaker 1:
[22:47] Well, no, they're not allowed to use the Internet.
Speaker 2:
[22:48] Right, because all it takes is one person to think, oh my goodness, even if it's genuine, oh my goodness, he died, I want to see with the details.
Speaker 1:
[22:55] Well, no, they also convince the community that even if they did have access to the Internet and they could look up, the media is lying to them. So he backs it up with saying, if the media is lying to you, Warren Jeffs is dead. So if you see news that says-
Speaker 2:
[23:10] Don't believe your eyes.
Speaker 1:
[23:11] Right, so not only are they not allowed to use the Internet, but then he also convinces them that if they do see something-
Speaker 2:
[23:16] This seems like a lot of work. It seems like it'd be easier to get someone to like you for who you are.
Speaker 1:
[23:22] I don't know. But then you don't get-
Speaker 2:
[23:23] Not that that's easy, but-
Speaker 1:
[23:24] But then you don't get 20 wives. So there's these three key men that are also involved in all of this. They start to follow Sam as the new prophet. I believe Moroni had been going against Warren Jeffs, and he had been taking new wives and having kids and all the things that he wasn't supposed to do, which meant he felt like he was going to go to hell. So then I believe that as Sam comes along and is a new prophet and can offer him some type of salvation, then that's why he starts to follow him, I guess. Moroni then allows Sam to...
Speaker 2:
[23:58] These people could really lead big companies by inspiring...
Speaker 1:
[24:03] Well, Torrance does, and we'll get to that.
Speaker 2:
[24:05] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[24:06] So Moroni is very important in this whole thing. I hate to say I feel sorry for him, but he's easily manipulated, and I don't understand why, but he is. But Moroni allows Sam to marry all of his daughters after accepting him as prophet. I believe he gives four daughters away to Sam.
Speaker 2:
[24:29] No kidding. Can you imagine giving all your...
Speaker 1:
[24:32] And then the baseline men that we were just talking about, the two brothers, give their wives and daughters to Sam as well.
Speaker 2:
[24:41] My goodness.
Speaker 1:
[24:42] I know.
Speaker 2:
[24:45] Do they feel it was a sacrifice? Like, I'm giving up my marriage for a higher good?
Speaker 1:
[24:52] I don't know. I really don't understand that part of it.
Speaker 2:
[24:55] It's more like good riddance. It's like someone came and said...
Speaker 1:
[24:58] You couldn't have my wife.
Speaker 2:
[24:59] Yeah. Someone said, I need Emily Simpson. I'd be like, good luck, sir. It's taken a decade and a half to try to get through the day with her.
Speaker 1:
[25:09] A decade and a half? Why didn't you just say 17 years? That's how long we've been married.
Speaker 2:
[25:12] It was about two years ago that I had learned how to...
Speaker 1:
[25:14] Oh, I see. Okay.
Speaker 2:
[25:16] How to get through the day and make it to bed safely.
Speaker 1:
[25:22] All right. So Torrance Bisslein, this is the interesting part. You're going to love this part. Torrance Bisslein had a successful green energy company, which Liddell and Marow and I both worked for. Very successful. He gives money to Sam from his company to buy houses for all for his expanding family, right? Because he's got 20 wives now.
Speaker 2:
[25:47] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[25:47] And these wives are starting to have kids. So like, so there's kids coming, right?
Speaker 2:
[25:51] It's like snowballing.
Speaker 1:
[25:52] Right. And he buys Sam bentleys and Range Rovers. And Sam drives around in a Bentley and flaunts their material items to the people in town that don't believe in Sam so that he can like, I don't know, try to hype them up into believing that he's the prophet. He drives around in a Bentley.
Speaker 2:
[26:12] Is that like the real estate agent? Like, see my fancy car? I sell fancy homes.
Speaker 1:
[26:17] I guess.
Speaker 2:
[26:17] I'm successful.
Speaker 1:
[26:18] But in what, this is what I don't understand. He convinces these men, grown adult men, one of which owns a very successful company. So the man has to be intelligent and savvy and very business oriented. He convinces him to turn over his wives and children. And then he convinces him to buy him bentleys and Range Rovers. But they also live in like, the homes they live in are like dilapidated.
Speaker 2:
[26:41] That was my next thing was he's driving around these bentleys and these homes are probably falling apart. And the conditions that they're living in aren't of the Bentley status.
Speaker 1:
[26:48] No, which cracks me up that I'm watching this because Christine and her husband are documenting all of this and they're going to dinner at their home and they're going over to their home and meeting Sam and the wives. And the house is a mess. It's small, it's falling apart, it's messy. There's, it's not well kept or nice or anything. It's just kind of cluttered and there's crap everywhere and there's kids and it's falling apart.
Speaker 2:
[27:10] You mean he's not cleaning up the apartments?
Speaker 1:
[27:11] No, and then he, and then he like drives around in a Bentley. It's, it's crazy to me. Also, I just have to comment on this. They don't go into it. He wears, he wears a white motorcycle jacket.
Speaker 2:
[27:24] How do you know it's a motorcycle jacket?
Speaker 1:
[27:25] Because it's, it's, you know, it has like the zippers and the, oh, the attachments. It's a motorcycle jacket, but it's white. And he wears it in like every scene that they've filmed. He has this white motorcycle jacket on. Like he thinks he's very cool.
Speaker 2:
[27:43] So I shouldn't be getting a white motorcycle jacket anytime soon?
Speaker 1:
[27:46] No, do you have one on your wishlist or something?
Speaker 2:
[27:49] No.
Speaker 1:
[27:50] All right. So Sam wants to be featured as the star of Christine and Tolga's documentary. So he's allowing them to, to film him and the wives and his life and his Bentley.
Speaker 2:
[27:59] I bet you he went and bought that jacket for the documentary.
Speaker 1:
[28:03] I believe so. Cause he wears it in every scene. I'm telling you, like he thought that was a really cool jacket. And he also, you know, drives Christine around in his Bentley. And so he wants her to like, you know, film him driving around his Bentley with his motorcycle jacket on. Sam asked Christine to film the wives insisting that the girls speak to the camera alone. The wives appear completely devoted to him. It's creepy when you watch it, when you watch all the wives around him, they all like are all touching him and they stare up at him.
Speaker 2:
[28:32] You think some of that was exaggerated for the documentary? Like they, they saw the cameras or maybe he told them.
Speaker 1:
[28:37] No, I believe that behind closed doors, he is very authoritative with them and tells them how to behave, how to act, act like you adore me, act like, you know, all the things.
Speaker 2:
[28:49] Oh, so you're saying on and off camera, that's how they are. I was just wondering if they, if he had them, if he was like, build me up when she comes over.
Speaker 1:
[28:58] Okay, so then after they're filming, Sam takes Christine and Tolga into his Bentley and tells them not to record. So he doesn't want them to record.
Speaker 2:
[29:08] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[29:08] Christine secretly records audio on her phone. So she uses her phone to secretly record him.
Speaker 2:
[29:13] It's a good way to build trust.
Speaker 1:
[29:14] And Sam admits to abusing minors and Christine captures it. He doesn't say abuse, obviously. He's talking about, you know, his, his wives and, you know, ages and things. She contacts police, but there is a delay in their response. Authorities later say the footage is not enough for a warrant. Did you know, while I was researching this case, after I, so after I watched the whole documentary, I was so obsessed with just all of it and I had so many questions. I was just out there Googling and reading more and reading articles. I don't know if you knew this, but in 2020, Utah passed Senate Bill 102, which decriminalized polygamy among consenting adults by reducing bigamy from a felony to just an infraction, basically like the same as a traffic ticket. And when I first read that, I thought, why would they do that?
Speaker 2:
[30:04] I don't know.
Speaker 1:
[30:04] And then as I read more, it made sense to me. The reason why they did that is because the fact that polygamy was a felony kept women, especially women, right? From coming forward and talking about the abuse that goes on within these communities.
Speaker 2:
[30:22] It was really, if that's the word, protection.
Speaker 1:
[30:26] It was, yeah.
Speaker 2:
[30:27] Or some type of guard.
Speaker 1:
[30:28] Really, the intent of the law was to take away the felony aspect of it so that women and minors or whoever.
Speaker 2:
[30:34] So they don't feel like I'm confessing to a crime if I come forward.
Speaker 1:
[30:36] And I'm gonna get arrested.
Speaker 2:
[30:38] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[30:38] They can now.
Speaker 2:
[30:39] I said they're like, I'm just gonna get a little.
Speaker 1:
[30:41] A traffic ticket.
Speaker 2:
[30:41] Yeah, it's like a movie violation.
Speaker 1:
[30:42] Maybe, probably nothing, right? But it was, the purpose of the bill was so that women could come forward and speak freely without fear of prosecution for being polygamous.
Speaker 2:
[30:52] Okay, so if someone gets married to a second spouse, they will get, that's an infraction?
Speaker 1:
[31:01] Well, it's an infraction, but it's not a felony anymore.
Speaker 2:
[31:03] I know, so it's an infraction.
Speaker 1:
[31:04] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[31:05] Because infraction, misdemeanor, felony, right?
Speaker 1:
[31:07] Right.
Speaker 2:
[31:07] So every day, are you getting an infraction? Like a ticket citation?
Speaker 1:
[31:13] No, I don't even think. I, my, I, when I, when I read about it and the intent, the legislation intended to bring polygamous families out of the shadows, allowing them to interact with authorities regarding abuse, exploitation, or fraud without fear of immediate incarceration for their lifestyle. So the bill was passed with near unanimous support in the Utah Legislator and signed by Governor Gary Herbert. I think the intent of the bill was just so that people would feel free to come forward and talk about the abuse instead of trying to keep it secret.
Speaker 2:
[31:42] Or yeah, they feel like I can't go in public or someone asked me who my husband is, I can't report it. Like, like they can't speak at all.
Speaker 1:
[31:49] So the law did not legalize polygamy. The state still only recognizes one legal marriage license, but it reduced the criminal penalty for entering into additional voluntary religious unions. So I thought that was interesting. It just took place in 2020. Back to Sam. So Sam sends his wives over to Christine's house to film for the documentary. All of the wives described Sam as the center of their life and only portray him positively. Julia Johnson. So we're back to Moroni. Moroni's first wife is named Julia Johnson. I have to say, watching this documentary, I know Christine, Dr. Christine, who infiltrated the group and had all this amazing intent to just help them and befriend them and be there for them. And I know she's a heroine in all of this. But for me, my takeaway after watching this entire documentary was Julia Johnson is the true hero in this. She is a woman that has lived within this FLDS community. She is the one that is married to Moroni. She's his first wife. She is the one that had the four daughters that were taken away and given to Sam. She is the wife who secretly comes forward and starts communicating with Christine after she trusts Christine. She starts going over to her house and little by little, she starts opening up and she starts talking about how what is going on is wrong. And she does not follow it and that she feels like he's leading them into hell. And she starts telling Christine all these things.
Speaker 2:
[33:20] Yeah. How long of a period of time was this from when she first started to go into the community and when Christine moved to this FLDS community in 2016?
Speaker 1:
[33:31] I think it was around 2020, maybe when they started making documentary or film.
Speaker 2:
[33:35] It was a long time that she was really had to be diligent and and being a part of the community and really befriending and really becoming part of it.
Speaker 1:
[33:44] So Christine then secretly meets with Warren Levi, who is Moroni and Julia's son. He does not support Sam Bateman. He says that he has seen Sam with underage girls including his own sisters, he like nine years old. We learned that before Sam Moroni had been shunned for taking additional wives and having children with them. Moroni believed he was spiritually condemned. So when Sam offers him redemption, he fully commits. Moroni gives Sam his money, wives and authority. It's so odd to me to think that just some man who rises up and says that he talks to Warren Jeffs and Warren Jeffs isn't alive anymore and he's a new prophet and someone's like great and he jumps on that because it makes him feel better about his own choices.
Speaker 2:
[34:32] I don't know. I don't get anything that these people are doing.
Speaker 1:
[34:36] So Christine secretly meets with other FLDS members to gather more information and learns about Naomi. They call her Gnomes. Her name is Naomi. This is one of Sam's wives. She is always by his side. She's completely loyal to him and she was brought into the group by Ladell, who's one of those three men that we talked about earlier. Soon after, Sam reveals his ambitions. This is so crazy. This is on record that Sam, because I think Christine asked him, what is your goal in life? What are you trying to accomplish? And he basically says that his ambitions are to govern the world and he begins posting self-help videos to YouTube. He also talks about how he's going to rule England and he's going to marry the queen.
Speaker 2:
[35:22] Well, that would be the next step.
Speaker 1:
[35:24] That would be the next step. I mean, he just says that very nonchalantly. Like that's just the next plan. And all his wives sit around and nod and agree with him as to the next step. Christine continues gaining trust and collecting information. She talks to the underage wives, and they tell Christine that Sam is the one who taught them about sex. They say that priesthood does not frown upon marrying a minor, and the Lord is letting them get blessed, meaning as in having sex when they are ready. She sends this evidence to local police, but receives no response. Christine then pushes to involve the FBI due to activity across state lines. I think Sam travels with the women across state lines. I don't even know what he's doing, like why he travels, why he takes them places. So the FBI then joins the case and questions local law enforcement in action. And despite video evidence, the case is difficult because no victims are willing to testify. These women that are all married to him were very close. They'd been coached and brainwashed and all the things. And these younger girls, these nine, 10, 11 year old girls, they'd been coached, I'm sure, as to what to say to. And they knew what to say, what not to say. So they had a hard time getting evidence that he was actually having sexual activity with these younger, minor girls.
Speaker 2:
[36:51] Well, the only way is if one of them becomes pregnant. That's a key way that they, then you can't deny sex.
Speaker 1:
[36:58] Christine begins to subtly warn the girls to stay safe from predators. And Julia, this is Moroni's wife, Julia, who I talked about, who I said I feel like the true hero in all of this, senses that Christine is someone she can turn to for help. Julia admits that there is suffering in the group, but initially avoids criticizing Sam. Then Christine shares her own past trauma, where she was married to a false prophet and went through abuse and all those things. And I feel like once she shares her own story, Julia then breaks down and realizes that she needs to help to get her family away from Sam. So Julia's four daughters are now married to Sam, and she knows that there's all these horrific things going on with these children. Sam verbally abuses the wives when cameras are off. He forces them to write repetitive phrases like, Sam, I am in f***ing love with you for hours. And it shows their notebooks on this documentary. It's so strange to see these notebooks filled with these young girls.
Speaker 2:
[37:59] You know, like I think about like, they have to write that over and over and over again, just to put it in their brain.
Speaker 1:
[38:04] Yeah, yeah. Julia never supported giving her daughters away to Sam, but felt forced due to Moroni's desires because that was her husband, right? She was the first wife. And she talks about how in this type of culture, you don't question the husband. He's the top of the food chain, right? He makes all the decisions. The women aren't there to lend, you know, opinions. They're there to obey. And they talk about that a lot in this FLDS community, that these women from a very, from the minute they're born, they learn to obey. And so later on, this Naomi, which is one of his wives, I will tell you from the very beginning, when I first started watching this, I'd say in the first two to three episodes, I didn't like Naomi, this wife. They show her a lot. She's very, she's always next to Sam, always holding him, always hugging him. She's, she just-
Speaker 2:
[38:54] She's building him up.
Speaker 1:
[38:55] She rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't like her. I felt like she just had like this evil look in her eyes. She was always controlling everything. She was controlling the other girls. She was, she just-
Speaker 2:
[39:05] I'd say that's how you feel about most people you meet.
Speaker 1:
[39:07] No, I'm just telling you, but my opinion of her changed drastically. So I just wanted to point that out, that in the beginning, she was very difficult for me. Cause I felt like she was the ringleader. Despite fear of law enforcement, Julia agrees to meet with an FBI agent named Dawn, who is leading this case. She provides testimony about Sam's abuse and gathers critical evidence, such as photos, birth certificates, and videos. And she and Christine create secret ways to pass evidence without raising suspicion, often meeting each other extremely late at night in inconspicuous locations. This is where I feel like Julia is really the hero in all of this, because you know she is a wife of Moroni. You know she is taught to obey. She has lived within this FLDS community, I'm sure, her whole entire life. She has children with Moroni that have been given away to Sam. And she is secretly meeting with Christine, giving away information, and she is secretly meeting with the FBI. Now can you imagine the fear that she is feeling?
Speaker 2:
[40:06] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[40:07] Or, or...
Speaker 2:
[40:08] Because the risk that she is running. Right, because...
Speaker 1:
[40:11] She is, and she is putting it all out there and she is risking everything. She is not obeying, she is not doing what she is supposed to do. She is going against everything she has been taught. But it is so bad, she realizes that this whole situation with Sam and all these minor children and all these things that are going on is so bad that it is even someone as brainwashed as this community is, for her to realize that it is wrong and to do the things that she did, I think is so commendable because she really is risking herself and her position and where she is going to go.
Speaker 2:
[40:44] That she has come to realize how bad it is, that she needs to do all this.
Speaker 1:
[40:49] So the FBI pushes for warrants but cannot act without direct disclosure from an underage victim. Agents ask Christine to stay close to Sam to continue gathering evidence. Then there's this weird thing that happens in the documentary. I don't remember which episode it is but Sam decides that he wants to make a music video. So they're preparing like, and Christine is, she does such a great job of knowing he's a sexual predator and knowing that he's preying on these young girls and that he's married to them and that he's having sex with them but she does such a great job of just continuing to act like everything's normal and that she likes him and respects him because she's trying to, she's gathering more information at this point, right? So she can't show disgust or disdain. She can't act like she doesn't like him. She has to continue to play this role of this woman that respects him and thinks he's a great guy, which I think would be so difficult to do.
Speaker 2:
[41:45] She got an Oscar.
Speaker 1:
[41:47] So Sam plans to create a music video to gain global attention from the Queen of England specifically, right? He's going to marry her and she's going to come out there. Christine and Tolga go along with it to maintain access. After filming, Christine tries to photograph Sam with all his wives. So she was kind of smart in that she was like, I remember in the documentary, she says, oh, you just made this music video, and why don't we document it? Why don't I get a picture with you with each one of your wives? Because she's trying to get evidence of all the women that he's married to, and there's young girls in there. So Sam refuses to be photographed with the underage girls because that's what took Warren Jeffs down. I think he, I believe he even says that. Julia becomes increasingly fearful and panicked, and Moroni questions whether she is considering reporting Sam. Moroni pressures Julia to sign over guardianship of her children to Sam, and Sam begins planning to obtain passports for all of his wives suggesting possible relocation or escape.
Speaker 2:
[42:47] To where?
Speaker 1:
[42:48] I don't know, but I think he, I think, yeah, I think he's becoming paranoid. He probably knows that like people are looking into him. So Sam, I don't know why he does this or where he's planning on going, but he puts all his wives into a car and trailer. And some of the wives are actually like in the trailer part. And I'm not, I don't mean like a trailer you travel in.
Speaker 2:
[43:10] Yeah, for transporting cargo.
Speaker 1:
[43:13] Right.
Speaker 2:
[43:13] Shipments, yeah.
Speaker 1:
[43:15] So Sam is first detained while traveling with multiple wives in a car and trailer. They actually could see why he gets pulled over is because you could see the wives sticking their hands out of the trailer doors outside. Like, wow, they're on the freeway.
Speaker 2:
[43:28] And they were doing that.
Speaker 1:
[43:30] They were holding the door shut because the doors were broken. They were going to like fly open.
Speaker 2:
[43:34] So they were like a Bentley and he can't he can't fix the lock on his trailer to keep his wives in there.
Speaker 1:
[43:40] Julia's children contact her and provide trooper information, which is important due to the on-going FBI case. Julia was actually very smart in this. So the trooper pulls them over. He sees that some of these girls are underage. He says, I have to call your parents. Right. So he ends up contacting Julia, who is the mole at this point, right. Within the FLDS community, she is smart enough to one, she acts like she gave permission for her children to be there. So the cops like, okay, I can't do anything because the mother is saying, I don't know, they're allowed to be there. Right. But she asked the trooper for his contact information and his name, which was so smart of her to do.
Speaker 2:
[44:15] Because then she could call them at another time?
Speaker 1:
[44:17] No, because then what she does is then she contacts the FBI that she's been working with and says the state trooper just pulled over, Sam, he's trying to leave. He's got all the wives in the back of the trailer. The FBI then contacts the trooper. She can't let her daughters know that she's telling the cop that they're not allowed to be there. So she plays the role very well when she gets the phone call. She says, yes, I gave permission for my daughters to be there. Then she secretly goes, she gets his name and number.
Speaker 2:
[44:48] In a way, it's almost like an anonymous tip. So when they, I'm guessing you'll tell me, but if the feds come and sees the trailer and this and that and pull them over or whatever, then it won't look like that information came from her because she permitted them just prior to that.
Speaker 1:
[45:03] Right, so she's very smart on the fly to know that she needs to maintain her figure as this mother who obeys and allowed her children to go with Sam within this community, but then she goes and makes the call to the FBI, tells the FBI that they got pulled over by a trooper, and then the FBI contacts that trooper. So then it's outside of her being involved within it. The media begins to take interest in this case, increasing fear among the wives. I'm telling you, these wives have been trained because when they get pulled over by the police, they are so rude to the cop. They won't give their name.
Speaker 2:
[45:37] Oh yeah, they probably are taught to not respect authority They don't respect authority at all.
Speaker 1:
[45:42] They argue with him, they get in his face, they tell him to let Sam go. They are so, for these-
Speaker 2:
[45:48] It's like spring break in daytona or something.
Speaker 1:
[45:50] Yes, it's crazy. I'm like, for these demure women who don't talk much and don't wear makeup and they all dress the same and they obey and they do as they're told and they're so pious and they're religious and they don't know anything about the real life. And then I'm telling you, a cop pulls them over and they're like, F you.
Speaker 2:
[46:09] Because they were told that those cops ever cross the line.
Speaker 1:
[46:13] I'm not giving you our name and you let Sam go and we're not listening to you and they like try to run. I mean, they're, it's like a whole other personality when the authorities come around. They're like feral women that got trapped and they're crazy.
Speaker 2:
[46:29] Like gremlins, right?
Speaker 1:
[46:30] Yeah, it's like they have fed after midnight. They are crazy. So Torrance, that's the one of the men that owns the successful company, he posts the $150,000 in bail. He pays the full amount. He like brings a check. This guy does well. So he's buying Billy's.
Speaker 2:
[46:48] What's he doing?
Speaker 1:
[46:49] What's his business?
Speaker 2:
[46:50] Green what?
Speaker 1:
[46:50] Green energy or something. I don't know.
Speaker 2:
[46:52] But he's scamming the government.
Speaker 1:
[46:54] You think?
Speaker 2:
[46:55] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[46:55] He's making allegedly.
Speaker 2:
[46:57] Collecting welfare off of everyone too.
Speaker 1:
[47:00] So Torrance posts the $150,000 bail. He brings a check and despite FBI concerns about Sam's release, Sam is reunited with his wives, reinforcing their belief that he is being persecuted as a prophet.
Speaker 2:
[47:12] So then, yeah, they're like, use it. Never let a crisis go to waste. Right. Right. So he's like saying, see, the evil is against us.
Speaker 1:
[47:19] Right.
Speaker 2:
[47:19] Now come sleep with me.
Speaker 1:
[47:20] Christine secretly captures Sam discussing plans to delete evidence from his phone while he's in federal custody. This leads to authorities finally obtaining a warrant and planning a raid. So they finally build up enough evidence against him in order to be able to raid the compound. So from what I understand, he lives in two different homes. There's like a green house and a blue house, and he kind of goes back and forth between them because he has a lot of wives. Right. So you got to like, you can't keep them all in one place. Naomi is interviewed and describes total devotion to Sam. She believes that he was her only path to salvation and she explains that she learned to behave exactly how he wanted and gave him complete obedience. All right. That's Naomi. So again, she changes in the end. She does a whole 180. So we'll get to that in a little bit. The FBI plans a raid. And so Christina and Tolga use Sam's ego to lure him into an interview away from the group. They were actually very smart about that. I think Tolga was the one that talks him into doing like an early morning interview because he wants it as part of the documentary. He talks him into coming and sitting in a chair and doing an interview. He gets him away from the wives so that the FBI can come in and they end up raiding. Naomi senses something is wrong. Sam is arrested during the interview so the FBI comes in.
Speaker 2:
[48:37] Does it show Sam getting arrested?
Speaker 1:
[48:39] Yeah, it shows all of it.
Speaker 2:
[48:40] Did he have his motorcycle jacket on?
Speaker 1:
[48:41] I believe he did actually. I don't know for sure but I'm pretty sure, I feel like he probably had his motorcycle jacket on.
Speaker 2:
[48:47] He was stylish.
Speaker 1:
[48:47] Yeah, well he was doing an interview for his documentary so I feel like he had it on. That was a big deal.
Speaker 2:
[48:50] He should be wearing it.
Speaker 1:
[48:52] The FBI then raids the houses where the wives are staying and all of the wives deny being married to Sam during questioning.
Speaker 2:
[48:59] When did this raid take place?
Speaker 1:
[49:01] I believe this is 2022 when the FBI raids this Sam Bateman group. The underage girls are then taken into state custody and the adult wives are placed in a house with Christine. The FBI gathers significant evidence during this raid but still lacks victim testimony. This is what they can't get. They can't get any of these minors saying, yes, there's sexual activity with this man. They have been...
Speaker 2:
[49:29] No, they don't even... You could easily scare a 10 year old to never open their mouth.
Speaker 1:
[49:34] Right.
Speaker 2:
[49:35] And they have been frightened.
Speaker 1:
[49:37] Right. So here's the interesting part, or I don't know if this is interesting, but this was, I was like, are you kidding me? So the minor girls, they all send them together to like a foster home or something. So they're all together. First of all, that was the number one mistake, because as long as these girls are together and there's older girls and younger girls, those older girls are-
Speaker 2:
[49:57] Like the cancer will still stay with them.
Speaker 1:
[49:58] Right. So then the Department of Child Services had some type of memo or something or some type of, they had written something down that said basically that Christine was an informant. And then they had thrown it away in the trash at this home where these girls are. The girls found it in the trash and like, and taped it back together. And they learned that Christine was an informant for the FBI. So then they're all mad. They tell Sam, they tell everybody. So now Christine's been outed that she's been working with the FBI as an informant. And they become furious with her. This is also, like we were talking about before about how these girls are so obedient and they have this personality of very demure and pious and quiet and they don't have opinions and they don't, all these things. When they find out that Christine is an informant, you should see the text messages that they send to her.
Speaker 2:
[50:51] Pretty nasty.
Speaker 1:
[50:52] It shows the text messages and I'm just like, it's like you effing this and eff you and you rot in hell, you effing, it's like crazy. They go feral when they get.
Speaker 2:
[51:03] They got a lot of anger built up from all the abuse that they've been put through.
Speaker 1:
[51:07] Julia is exposed also as an informant. Julia confronts her husband Moroni and tells him that they have been following a false prophet. Moroni realizes the truth and he agrees to cooperate with the FBI. He admits to abusing minors and confirms Sam's actions. He is having sex with all of these wives and the minors and also doing it on video chats with other people watching and also having group sex where some of the wives are watching and some of them are participating. And also according to Moroni, the husband of Julia, Sam and Moroni had sex. So I'm just telling you just they left a lot of that out in the documentary and maybe it was to protect the minors. Maybe it was to not be so much about.
Speaker 2:
[51:57] So they're protecting the minors and now you're going to expose it here on the podcast.
Speaker 1:
[52:00] Well, it's out there. No, but I'm saying maybe the point in not going into the dirty details of that was to take away from, I don't know. I mean, I guess you could just, you could use your imagination.
Speaker 2:
[52:12] Yeah, when enough was said, they didn't need to go into such horrific details.
Speaker 1:
[52:17] Right. And I guess it was even so, so bad at a point that he used to, Sam Bateman used to have all these religious classes and teachings with all the wives, right? And then it got to the point where he wasn't even holding those religious classes or lectures or talks anymore because they were just, there wasn't time because he had to have sex with his wives all day. And record it and have orgies and live stream it and have all the different people involved and watching and doing all the things. There was no time left for any.
Speaker 2:
[52:50] Yeah, priorities.
Speaker 1:
[52:52] Right. Sam continues communicating with his followers while in custody and he instructs his wives to take the underage girls from DCS and flee. This is crazy too. So they do come up with a kidnapping plan. So they had the younger minors in like a foster home under control of DCS. Naomi is part of this plan and she is located by police and told she is under arrest. She briefly flees from police. She actually runs and hides and they can't find her. I think she sleeps like underneath something in the cold. I mean, that's how much these girls are dedicated to not, to him and to not participating or being under any type of authoritative, like when they tell them they're under arrest, they don't care. Like she fled, ran. They end up finding her. The FBI locates.
Speaker 2:
[53:40] This is a community that you would not adapt well to.
Speaker 1:
[53:43] No.
Speaker 2:
[53:43] You would not. You don't even lift a finger for me. You're definitely not.
Speaker 1:
[53:48] I know.
Speaker 2:
[53:48] I don't know. Unless these guys, maybe these guys could give some motivational classes and teach some skills.
Speaker 1:
[53:56] Well, here's the thing. Here's my question. Because I was thinking of this the whole time I was watching it. And this is what we talk about a lot when we talk about minors and crimes and things. We talk about nature versus nurture. My, this is what I kept thinking about. Because we're talking about minor children. And the reason that they think the way they think, they behave the way they do, they're loyal, they obey is because they were born into this community.
Speaker 2:
[54:18] It's all they know.
Speaker 1:
[54:18] They don't know anything different. They don't have access to the internet. They don't go to schools, like traditional kind of schools. They don't know history. They don't learn things.
Speaker 2:
[54:27] They don't know what they're capable of. No, they don't know what's right and wrong.
Speaker 1:
[54:31] And yeah, they're not, they're not given the freedom to explore talents. They don't create art or take gymnastics or go to tennis or they don't socialize with people outside of their group.
Speaker 2:
[54:41] They're not allowed to think for themselves.
Speaker 1:
[54:43] Right, exactly. And so here's my question. And the whole time I was thinking this, we have a 13-year-old daughter, Annabelle, who is the feiciest, most feral child I've ever come into contact with. Talk about her first reaction to anything I say is no. I wonder if you took that child, and she's been like that since day one, right? I mean, she came out of the womb, like, just.
Speaker 2:
[55:09] I bet your mom says the same thing about you.
Speaker 1:
[55:11] Okay, you're not allowing me to get to my point.
Speaker 2:
[55:13] Sorry, go to your point.
Speaker 1:
[55:14] Do you think if Annabelle Simpson was born into an FLDS community and raised like that, that she would obey like those, like those.
Speaker 2:
[55:24] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[55:25] You do.
Speaker 2:
[55:26] I think they come down so heavy, they don't give them any opportunity from day one.
Speaker 1:
[55:31] Even a child like her that is completely spirited from day one.
Speaker 2:
[55:34] Maybe she'd be like the one that ended up ratting when they got older and stuff. But no.
Speaker 1:
[55:40] So you think if she, even with the mindset.
Speaker 2:
[55:43] Sad to think about that, isn't it?
Speaker 1:
[55:44] It is.
Speaker 2:
[55:44] Isn't it sad to think that someone so independent could be so controlled?
Speaker 1:
[55:49] Well, it made me sad because I just kept thinking about Annabelle the whole time. Because these girls that are married to him and are loyal to him and have no life, they're just in there being sexually abused by this man. They're the same age as my daughter. And while I'm watching this, Ann Younger, and while I'm watching this, I'm thinking, if my child was-
Speaker 2:
[56:07] You're putting it into perspective.
Speaker 1:
[56:08] I'm putting it into perspective because I'm thinking if my child was born into that community, me knowing what I know about her and her personality and how that child never backs down, she's opinionated, she said her first response to anything is no, absolutely not. It made me wonder if she could be broken down like that within that community because she knows nothing different.
Speaker 2:
[56:29] We could helicopter in and drop her.
Speaker 1:
[56:31] Yeah, you want to see?
Speaker 2:
[56:32] And give her 30 days.
Speaker 1:
[56:34] See if she comes out.
Speaker 2:
[56:35] She'll be like Rambo. She'll come out and save everyone.
Speaker 1:
[56:37] Yeah, she would. That's what we need to do. We need to drop Annabelle into the FLDS community. So Naomi ends up going to prison because of the kidnapping of the underage girls. And, you know, she talks about how... Here's the really interesting. If you watch this documentary, I'll tell you there's a pivotal moment in this documentary where I actually wanted to jump up and clap because I did. Yes, because I could not stand gnomes. I couldn't. I admit that. They show a chair and the producers are going to interview someone and they show her... I'm getting emotional. I don't even know why. They show her walk in and sit in that chair and she's dressed in regular street clothes. She's got makeup on, her hair is curled. And I thought, thank God this child has seen the light because she was the hardest. Like she was the hardest. She was the one that was like defending him till the bitter end and controlling the other girls. And she just had that look in her eye and she was tough.
Speaker 2:
[57:44] But she's going to still have some healing to do.
Speaker 1:
[57:47] So Gnomes ends up in a jail cell next to Sam Bateman and she talks about how he was talking to her for like four hours straight. And when he was talking to her, he was telling her things. And it started to click that some of the things he was saying weren't true because he was contradicting things that he had said earlier. And something clicked in her mind where she thought, I don't believe you. I've been taught to obey and believe everything you say. And now I'm catching you in lies. I don't know, but something happened in her mind.
Speaker 2:
[58:11] Well, probably being in a cell, she wasn't under complete control all the time.
Speaker 1:
[58:15] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[58:16] She was able to get away and reflect on what he was saying and think.
Speaker 1:
[58:20] Right. So anyway, she spends, I think, a year in prison. And being away from him allowed her to just what you said. Her mind was free. She could think for herself. She does a lot of art in prison. She's an amazing artist. I think she didn't even know she was talented.
Speaker 2:
[58:36] Probably not.
Speaker 1:
[58:36] And now she realized that. So eight months after Sam's arrest, underage wives come forward and confirm the abuse. And this is when they start talking, is when they didn't have them all together within a home. They put once the kidnapping, once they caught them, after they tried the kidnapping scheme or whatever, when they finally, the authorities get them back, they put them in separate foster homes. So they weren't all together. And that's when they started talking, because I believe they were taken out of that environment. They didn't have the other wives, the older ones, or they weren't sticking together with their plan or what they had been taught. They start to just assimilate into a different life. And that's when they started talking about the abuse and they started confirming what they had been through. Sam is sentenced to 50 years in prison. And while some of his wives recognize the deception, others continue to follow him. And of course, I'm sure he still has followers and I think he still has some wives that believe in him. And you know, the whole-
Speaker 2:
[59:35] I probably always will.
Speaker 1:
[59:37] The problem with the prison is like Warren Jess where then they become a martyr, right? Then they compare themselves to Jesus or being on the cross. It's like I'm being persecuted for my beliefs.
Speaker 2:
[59:49] See, I told you they were evil. Look what they're doing.
Speaker 1:
[59:52] Right. Moroni goes on to plead guilty to conspiracy to traffic a minor and receives a 25 year sentence that has to do with giving away his minor children to Sam, knowing full well what's going on within that. And then eight adult wives receive prison sentences. Torrance Bisslein and Liddell, those are the brothers, are convicted and sentenced to 35 years and life respectively for sex trafficking. For sex trafficking minors, knowing what was going on, knowing the abuse of these children, handing kids over, being a part of it, being involved in it, transporting them, all the things. They're all convicted, they're all in prison as they should be.
Speaker 2:
[60:31] They should cut off their communication too.
Speaker 1:
[60:34] With each other?
Speaker 2:
[60:35] Well, no, with those in prison, with these men in prison back to their families because then they're just going to continue to mislead.
Speaker 1:
[60:43] Yeah, and you know what I also, I don't remember if this is what I read after it was in the documentary, but because Sam has access to so much money, because Torrance has the business, I guess you can buy video time. So he spends all his time in prison, constantly out there talking, communicating.
Speaker 2:
[61:04] There should be a cap on that.
Speaker 1:
[61:06] Yeah, I thought that too. I thought, why is he allowed to continue to communicate as much as he wants? Because it's just based on how much money he has in his account or whatever. He can do some video call all the time.
Speaker 2:
[61:18] What else can he pay for?
Speaker 1:
[61:19] I don't know. Also, Dr. Christine is still within the FLDS community. She wants to stay and continue to offer support for all the things, which is kind. I really liked her. She's eccentric and quirky. She has a great personality. I thought she was fun. Don't let the cover art of the show, if you see it on Netflix, it's a little corny. It's because it shows Dr. Christine, because she's a little quirky. It shows her with a cowboy hat on and I think pink cowboy boots or something. Then it shows the FLDS women behind her. So I think the cover art is a little, you know, a little...
Speaker 2:
[62:00] I mean inaccurate as to what you're going to end up seeing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[62:03] So don't let that fool you. I feel like it's an amazing documentary because it documents everything. And the purpose with her documenting everything was not to catch a predator, but she ends up catching a predator.
Speaker 2:
[62:16] It surely was a documentary that resulted in a capture.
Speaker 1:
[62:21] Right. Right. And so I don't know, I think it's one of the best documentaries I've ever watched. I think you take away so much from it. You question it. I was questioning my own daughter and what would have happened if she was within this community. I wanted to know where Naomi was now. So I found her Instagram and it looks like Naomi Gnomes is out there living her best life. It showed some, they're doing press for this docu-series. And so it looked like she was in New York and she has this like really good looking boyfriend in her photos on Instagram. So I was like so happy to see that she's taken a terrible situation that she was born into and is now doing art and traveling and went to New York City and doing press.
Speaker 2:
[63:02] You did a lot of like putting your own kids in the situation and kind of having perspective on that. Did you do that with me?
Speaker 1:
[63:10] Oh, did you mean you're not, cause you're not a predator?
Speaker 2:
[63:13] Yeah, you're like, she's not so bad.
Speaker 1:
[63:14] I always do my takeaway.
Speaker 2:
[63:15] He's downstairs doing the laundry right now. And I'm up here complaining.
Speaker 1:
[63:19] I'm not complaining, I'm watching Netflix. Yes, my takeaway is that I married a very, very, I don't know, amazing father to our children and husband. And I don't worry. Here's the thing, Shane's so solid, I should tell him this more often, but I don't. But Shane's so solid, I don't question things, I don't worry about things. He's always doing the right thing. And we'll just end that episode with that. There you go. Was that good?
Speaker 2:
[63:48] Sure.
Speaker 1:
[63:49] All right. Thank you guys so much for listening to Legally Brunette. If you get the opportunity to watch it, it's called The False Prophet and it's extremely good. I recommend that everyone watch it. It's four episodes. Please be sure to follow Legally Brunette wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, I know if you're listening to our episodes within the Two Ts Network, not all of our episodes are there. So you're gonna have to come over to Legally Brunette to listen to all of our episodes. And then lastly, I just want to give a big thank you to all of you who send me DMs and recommend cases. This was one that you recommended and so you guys did a great job. Thank you. I really appreciate the feedback and the recommendations of cases that we should talk about. So thank you so much.