transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] You're now listening to Sound Talent Media. Check out more shows at soundtalentmedia.com. When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Skims or Allbirds, sure, you think about a great product, a cool brand, and great marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business, making selling and for shoppers buying simple. For millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. It's home of ShopPay, the number one checkout in the world. You can use it to boost conversions up to 50 percent, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going through to checkout. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Allbirds uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com/income, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com/income to upgrade your selling today. shopify.com/income.

Speaker 2:
[01:18] Welcome to Axe To Grind, the Hardcore Podcast. I'm Patrick.

Speaker 3:
[01:23] I'm Bob.

Speaker 4:
[01:25] And I'm Tom, I was just turning the light on, sorry.

Speaker 3:
[01:27] And joining us today, a guest who has been long in the waiting.

Speaker 5:
[01:33] I'm Scott, Scott Vogel, very happy to be here. Thanks for having me, guys. Thanks, Scott. I'm a fan. I'm probably a weekly listener minus a bad week when I don't have time.

Speaker 3:
[01:45] We appreciate that. Those are the people who make the best fourth mic. So Scott's going to join us. Guys, before we get into the fun talk, let's say thank you and appreciation to our benevolent sponsors. Thank you and appreciation to Convulse Records.

Speaker 2:
[02:03] Tom, I didn't have anything at bat. Ficus.

Speaker 3:
[02:07] Thank you and appreciation to To Live a Lie.

Speaker 2:
[02:11] Fern.

Speaker 3:
[02:12] Thank you and appreciation to Closed Casket Activities.

Speaker 2:
[02:16] Spider Plant.

Speaker 3:
[02:18] Thank you and appreciation to Run For Cover Records.

Speaker 2:
[02:23] I don't know what the hell that one is over there. It's got glossy leaves.

Speaker 4:
[02:27] Rubber Plant.

Speaker 2:
[02:29] Rubber Plant. Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[02:30] We got the Michelin Man here. Everybody, we're going to direct you to go to closedcasketactivities.com, closedcasketactivities.com. And since we have a guest, when you have a guest over, it's always nice. Scott, do you need something to drink? Do you want to put your feet up on the tables? Can you get you anything? What would you like to tell the people about from closedcasketactivities that they should give some time and attention to?

Speaker 5:
[02:53] All the skinhead stuff is from closedcasket, right?

Speaker 3:
[02:56] That's right.

Speaker 5:
[02:57] Like, what a dangerous poet. That's where I'm leaving that. He's a dangerous poet, but a beautiful one.

Speaker 3:
[03:06] That's really well put. So everybody check out the skinhead material.

Speaker 4:
[03:09] I think a new single.

Speaker 3:
[03:10] Yeah. I think it's like four out of four on this call are all fans. Skinhead is tearing up and doing really well live too. So shout out to them. closedcasketactivities.com get your skinhead fixed. Now let's swing over to run for cover. Run for cover records.com. Scott, tell us something. Give us some run for cover love.

Speaker 5:
[03:31] Can I give you two? Of course. The new and now I believe there's no young, but Gov is on run for cover, correct?

Speaker 3:
[03:40] Yes, sir.

Speaker 5:
[03:41] Okay. So Gov, because I love Ben. And the band I listened to probably the most, second to Sunny Day Real Estate, now Citizen. So what a fucking great band.

Speaker 3:
[03:56] A band we don't talk about on here very much. And I gotta admit, I was late to the Citizen game, but what a band. Able to kind of evolve their sound, do different things, but really in this like fascinating dynamic way, you know, kind of rare in that way.

Speaker 5:
[04:11] Yeah, they're great. I love them. Great lyrics, just super good.

Speaker 3:
[04:15] I did an interview with Ben for run for cover, not that long ago, maybe a year, little over a year ago. And he had just done some time with you in the studio, Scott. And he said he had to come out of there because he was just in a hardcore mindset from spending time with you. And he was like so amped up and he was like, and now I'm trying to shift gears and do this Gov stuff. And it was quite endearing. What a musician too. You got some Toronto Buffalo love right there?

Speaker 5:
[04:43] I do. And of course, Jordan. And not the last, not the terror record that's coming out soon, not that one and not the one before that, but the two before that. Ben was in the studio with us, helped me with a lot of cadences, lyrics. He was super, super hands on. And that's just a thing like at this point, I've been doing this for so long. So to grab like an extra brain and kind of redirect the way I think, I'm totally open to that at this point.

Speaker 3:
[05:16] Hell yeah. And I mean, like, look, you couldn't get it from someone better. Like even when I go back and listen to Ill Blood Now, and think about just that Ben's about the same age as me, and I'm just listening to it and going, damn, he already had these ideas of how it should sound. And it's like primitive now to him, but his phrasing, his cadence, how he hit certain pieces, that's, it's so unique, so.

Speaker 2:
[05:44] Yeah, we end up talking a lot about voice in hardcore, but equally important or maybe more important, because you can have a pretty standard-ass hardcore voice. And if you have clever cadences, it elevates your songs to just, people want to listen to them versus that was cool. You know what I mean? So and yeah, he's always had it with that. That's, he is somebody that you would go to for hardcore cadence.

Speaker 3:
[06:10] So everybody go check out that gov record, check out all the Citizen Records, rumpforeverrecords.com. Guys, thank you. Scott, we hear you are a fella who likes hardcore, but also likes music in general. So we're going to talk about that a lot today. Okay. Let's see. So we thought, you know, sometimes much like Murphy's Law has challenged us all, why can't you play fucking games? We've got some games, so we're going to do on that. You have a new terror record coming out. Let's give that a couple of minutes. What's the story? When's it out? What's the whole thing?

Speaker 5:
[06:46] It's coming out on FlatSpot. I believe on the 24th of April, 424, I think that could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure. Yes, that's right.

Speaker 4:
[06:56] The Friday of the week of this. This comes out on the 21st, so it'll be out this Friday.

Speaker 3:
[07:02] So this Friday, there you go.

Speaker 5:
[07:04] I mean, the quick rundown is, it's terror. I couldn't be happier with the way terror is as people, the way we get along. Where I think we're super comfortable in who we are, the size of our band, our live show. We're just kind of in this nice cruising spot. We're not trying to be the biggest band. We're just happy. And I think that reflects in the music. I think we know our sound. We lean in to what we can do good. And Pat knows this. John Markson mixed the record, and he made it sound so good. When I did that World Be Free stuff, he mixed one of those records. And I remember, we had someone else mix it first, and it sounded bad. And I remember, I didn't even know him at the time, his name. And I think Sammy found him or whatever knew him. And when I heard what he did, I was just like, holy shit. So when he was brought up to do this record, I was like, it wasn't my idea. I think it was Nick, our drummer, Nick's or Flat Spot. I was like, holy shit, that's such a good idea. And I love what he did. Todd again, produced it. Taylor Young engineered it and definitely really leaned in, really went above and beyond and definitely did some producing on the record. We're happy to do it on Flat Spot. What's up? I'm missing. Guest spots are really cool. We got Chuck Reagan, Jay from Mindforce, Brody King and Dan from King Nine. And one really cool thing because he just called me today. We released a song today called Fear The Panic. And when Nick wrote the song and we had done two records with Chad Gilbert, and Chad is really showed us for the first time what a producer does. Like he was so hands on and had so many ideas and he's really like, you know, musical and anthemy. And we said, man, if we could get Chad to look at this song and kind of produce it. So I hit him up and he's like, yeah, that sounds like a cool idea. So we just, he produced it like via the phone and voice notes. And I'm sure a lot of people know, he's really battling for his life right now, his health. And I had sent him the finished song, the mix song, and I didn't hear back from him. And he just literally called me today and we talked for like 20 minutes. And he was like, you know, telling me, I'm so happy we did this and it came out great and all that stuff. So a million thanks to him and everyone I just mentioned and everyone I forgot. We're just so I mean, the big thing I can say that is insane. We've been a band for 23 years. We put out 10 records. It's like fucking insane. Like when I stop and think about it, it's fucking insane. So and the only way that happens. Is if people care and want to keep coming out and supporting us. So everyone listening that gives terror love. Thank you very fucking much.

Speaker 2:
[10:19] It's awesome.

Speaker 4:
[10:20] Shout out to Chad Gilbert. I just, yeah, I want to.

Speaker 2:
[10:23] Shout out to Chad Gilbert.

Speaker 4:
[10:23] He's going through a lot of stuff. But like, you can even hear like talking about producing, like he produced Big Kiss Good Night.

Speaker 2:
[10:29] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[10:30] And you can tell there's a difference from one record to the other. And I think he's, shout out to him. He's a sweetheart. I've known him for a long, long time. Talking about Scott, like 23 years ago, my first terror memory is me and Ian Larrabee being like, yo, Vogel has a new band. And we were trying to find the demo somewhere in Springfield, Massachusetts, at that place, Fat Cats. We all bought it at Fat Cat. Someone had it in like a distro. We're like, what the? Like it was a fully formed band right from the rip. Like not many bands, you know, you do a demo. And it's like, I mean, you guys were all like in bands and all this stuff, but I feel like, you know, you do a demo first. It's like, this is kind of what it's going to be, but not a hundred percent. Like, because it was you and Nick and Todd, obviously. Who else was back?

Speaker 3:
[11:16] I don't know. Matt Smith.

Speaker 4:
[11:17] Matt Smith, right. But like, it was like a fully formed, like this, that could have been an album. You didn't even need to do a demo. And it just came out like fully done, which is crazy.

Speaker 5:
[11:26] You know why people had that demo there? As soon as we made those, I boxed up like 20, 20, 20, and hit up like Joe Hardcore, I know. Sent him like 20, just to either sell or give away to people. Like I did like the street team with our demos, just to get them out. I just remember going to the post office and sending all these people. I remember maybe Scott Lee, I sent him them.

Speaker 4:
[11:49] And that makes sense, because Ogre was booking the shows back then. Yeah, over there especially. Bob, you had a question that cut you off. I'm sorry about that.

Speaker 3:
[11:55] No, you know, it's one of these things that I think about it. And it's, you know, you mentioned it, the duration. How does that feel when you think about it, you know, that you have been there and been this go-to for people for a long time. Does that make it, do you feel, I mean, what do you feel off that? Because I would hope you feel a sense of pride. There is, I mean, and at the same time, there might be pressure, like, how do you outdo things you've done in the past? And how do you do new things? And is that even something you think about when you're putting the record together?

Speaker 5:
[12:30] The hardest pressure is trying to stay relevant with young kids. Like, and I think we haven't done it perfectly, but we've done it the best we can, and I'm happy with where we are. Like, you know, it's hard to, like, keep people that, like Tom, got the demo when it came out. And then there's so many new bands, there's so many different styles. The word hardcore has been taken in so many places. But to be able to have a 16, 17-year-old see, like, I'm 53, a 53-year-old front man, and not be like, why is this old dude yelling at me? It's a tough thing to grab them. So that's what, I don't know if it's pressure, but that's something we try to navigate. And I think that comes with just being part of the scene, like going to shows, knowing what's up. People in Terror, besides Terror, do other bands, record bands, do labels. Martin does Sound and Fury. We all go to shows. We all don't know everything, but are still just a part of it. We always want to play with younger bands. Whether we're taking them on tour, or a younger band asks us to play with them, we've never had a problem playing before a younger band. Please let me play early. Please don't make me headline. That's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[14:01] You've done this better than anybody. On this podcast, you've probably heard me. I give it up to you and I give it up to Comeback Kid for your complete lack of ego when it comes to getting what you do out to people. It's inspiring because it's easy to get caught up. If you're having any type of moment, and Tera's had at least two, when you're having any type of moment, it's easy to get caught up in this idea that, why am I playing underneath anybody right now? Like, fuck this. And you guys don't have that at all. I mean, I'm sure you have it internally. Occasionally, you've seen some bum bands you've played under and you've gone, what the fuck is this? But at least on the touring band level, you always handle it with grace. And we've talked about it on the podcast. I have a lot of respect for it. By the way, everybody, these guys can see me. You can't, people at home. I look like I'm tweaking because I'm checking the window every 10 seconds. It's because I've been tasked with getting a delivery that the guy is playing games. He says that he's here and he's not. So for the next five minutes, I might be spotty. But Scott, I wanted to ask you a related question if you don't mind, which is, okay, Drug Church has not been around as long as Terror, but we've been around long enough that people like at least three records. And as a result, when we put out new music, the comment that we get is, another great Drug Church song. And that sounds cool. Like that sounds like a compliment, but it starts to feel like people are taking you for granted on some level because they anticipate, oh yeah, it's going to be good. And that's, again, that's a compliment, but maybe you feel the same way that I do, where you're managing your expectations of, no, this is some of our best work. You should be more hyped. You shouldn't say, yeah, another great drug church song, another great terror song. I heard the single today. If I read the comments and I see another great terror song, I'm going to be irritated because you want, musicians want more than that. And I guess what I'm asking you is, do you wrestle with any of those feelings? You said you're at peace as a band, a rare thing, but do you ever look around and go, yeah, not for nothing. Maybe as much love as we get, people don't realize that we're kind of our best right now.

Speaker 5:
[16:30] That's interesting. I mean, all I can do is I know that I've put everything I can into this record, song being there for all the songwriting, giving all my ideas. Every aspect, the cover art, the lyrics, the mix, I was as hands on as I could be. And I think it's the best terror record that we could make right now. And I think it sounds great. And I think it's got energy and urgency. But the thing that I can go back to for what you're describing, I'm the same way to other bands. Like, there is nothing a band like Hatebreed or Madball could put out right now that is gonna compare to their first couple records for me. It just can't be done. So I just have to be realistic that saying another great terror song, I'll take it. It doesn't bother me.

Speaker 4:
[17:33] It's better than the alternative, right?

Speaker 5:
[17:35] Like, please stop and play the old stuff, now that would bother me. Or why another terror record? And another thing I hear, you always know what you're going to get. Same old terror, that's not so great wording, but you always know what you're going to get. To me, that can go both ways. But for who we are and who we want to be, I'm like, thank God. I don't want to say we're ACDC, but I'm glad you can rely on us to deliver actual hardcore. I think that's what we're known for and that doesn't bother me. I'm not so caught up on stuff. I don't worry too much. I worry about other stuff. When we go on stage and I need it to be a good show every night, that's the stuff I worry about. But Instagram comments, nah.

Speaker 3:
[18:27] I think that's a healthy perspective for people to hear, especially younger people, because I think I see it and I see how people can react and live and die with a comment like that, you know, and think, and so it's almost healthy to think, you know, the audience's expectation and, you know, it's hardcore, right? Hardcore isn't, there's no separation between band and audience, you know, we are the band, audience, we are the band, you know. But I wonder for you, you know, all three of us are old enough to remember that there was a rare demo being everywhere, everywhere. And then when Lois Lowe hit, and it was somebody's favorite record for years, and then all these records, is it odd to you that you're able to see, and in conversation with people at shows, and just people you probably know, you probably have good friends who there's kids who are, guys who are like, Lois Lowe, that's my record, or people who are like, Keepers of the Faith, that's my record. Is that sort of an interesting thing for you? How do you internalize that when you realize that you've had different records that have had these peak moments for so many different people at different spaces?

Speaker 5:
[19:41] I think that kind of touches on what I was saying. I think a lot of people's favorite record might be their entry point. There's some that we like eclipsed it with something. Maybe there was a certain song that really touched on something they needed to hear at that time. But I think a lot of it like is the entry point when you first either saw the band or learned about the band. And that's always like a special thing, like the first for a lot of things. And like I was saying, that's the same for me. But like, there's got to be examples of bands that their first stuff isn't my favorite. They've put out something later that is actually better. That does happen. But, and it could be at the time we toured with two of their other favorite bands, and it's just where they came in. But I'm happy to, you know, there's ones like you mentioned, Lowest Of The Low, Keepers Of The Faith for sure. A lot of people bring up the last one, Pain In The Power. Maybe that's younger people. But sometimes people even bring up like the records that I like the least, like that I'm just like, that's my least favorite. So and there are ones that I like more than others. There was ones that I definitely know we worked harder on and stuff. But there isn't one in the in the catalog, I guess, that I would be like, don't even mention that to me. That's like, that's embarrassing.

Speaker 3:
[21:08] So and that's that's the way you should feel because, you know, thankfully for us life can be long. And if you're able to create something for that time, like, of course, there's going to be things you like better than others. And no, I mean, I am sure no matter what record you're looking at in the terror world, somebody's that's somebody's favorite record. And for all the reasons you mentioned, I think that it's one of the things that I hope it's like, it's like the computer becoming self-aware, right? We're, you know, 40 years deep in the hardcore. Everyone should acknowledge that first couple years in hardcore, whether it's your memories from the shows or the records you attach to, damn, hard to escape that magic, you know? And you can accept it. And then you should value those moments you hit later on even more, where it's like, yo, this record from 2005, I can't believe how much I love this record. I've been in hardcore for however many years and it just hits me still. So I like to hear that from you.

Speaker 4:
[22:10] How do you write a setlist, 10 records in?

Speaker 2:
[22:12] Yeah, this was my question. Do you feel any obligation? Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking. Do you have any obligation to include? Because Drug Church is out on a tour. We thought, oh, people have seen us three times this year. Let's throw some old songs in. And they're brickin, despite the fact that people ask for them and all that nonsense. So I'm asking you, as a guy with an expansive catalog, do you feel any obligation to put the... Let's say that there's a record that you don't like, but you know it's got two songs on it that you think are great, and they should get the attention, but it's a dice roll because you don't know how people are going to respond. How do you build a set list, like Tom asked?

Speaker 5:
[23:02] Me personally, who makes the set list, but then I get some pushback from band members, whether it's immediately or mid-tour. My only goal is every single one of these songs is going to have people going off and singing along. So I don't feel any obligation to throw something in from a record.

Speaker 4:
[23:21] Right, every record, right? Like you don't go like, we need to add something from Damned and Ashamed, it's gotta be in there.

Speaker 5:
[23:26] Right, nope.

Speaker 4:
[23:27] Right.

Speaker 5:
[23:27] But that might also be because I want it to be as awesome as possible, but is also as easy on me as possible.

Speaker 4:
[23:36] I respect that.

Speaker 5:
[23:39] There's a Terror song off the Keepers of the Faith record called Shattered that I wrote about my ex-girlfriend and it's super personal. And for a long time, I refused to play it. I was like, if we play this, I'm going to break down right here and like right there. So we, as soon as the record came out, I shelved it and we recently, like a year ago, it was actually when, when MindForce came out, we, we us, MindForce and Outburst did some shows in California. Right. Right. And I put it in the setlist, total brick. It was in for like two shows and then back in the garbage. Because we like, we slept on it too long. Now it's just like a, like a seaside. It's not even a B side. So it's just gone.

Speaker 2:
[24:24] Yeah. And, and somebody will, somebody will emerge after this podcast and your DMs to tell you that's their song and, and all that. And you just got to be honest with them and say, okay, well, I'm going to need you and everyone else like you at every show moving forward, because otherwise I can't, I can't, I can't be putting bricks in this.

Speaker 3:
[24:46] Hey, it was, it was a song for me too, but you know, with those couple of shows, it was, we needed you up front, my friend.

Speaker 4:
[24:51] And it's hardcore, because you're not going to be like, you know, fucking YouTube puts out a new album, they, then they play for two and a half hours. Like you're getting a 45 minute terror set, right? Like at the most, or maybe, I don't think you guys do an hour unless it's Euro.

Speaker 5:
[25:05] Less than 45. We're pushing hard for 39 minutes.

Speaker 2:
[25:09] So that's, that's a band, that's a band.

Speaker 4:
[25:12] That's like 15 songs, it's a lot of songs.

Speaker 5:
[25:16] When we get, like when we did that tour with Obituary, it was Obituary Nails Terror. We were playing at like 740 every day, 30 minutes. I was like, this is the greatest thing ever.

Speaker 2:
[25:28] I'm with this man. This is the greatest thing ever. When we did those Def Tones things, it was 30 minutes and you were showered and eating by 830 at night. You know what I mean? You're done. You're in grandma mode. It was fucking awesome.

Speaker 3:
[25:48] You've got that Doobie Brothers record on and everybody's happy. Exactly.

Speaker 5:
[25:52] You know what else I like? If it's the right stage, the wrong stage can really ruin your set. But when they leave their back line and drums up and you have less room but still enough room, and I don't have to work this huge stage. Thank God. Thank God.

Speaker 2:
[26:15] Yo, Scott, that touches on a thing that was my main question to you. It's the only thing I wrote down before we entered this conversation. Because it's on my mind, it's this thing that the three of us have talked about, maybe off mic a little bit, is as we get older, now you still got it, but presumably your body will betray you someday like every athlete.

Speaker 5:
[26:42] Right?

Speaker 2:
[26:43] So, do you, at that point, and off mic I'll say which band I'm talking about, but there's a band that I think both of us really love, who are now older, and the impact is very different. The singer has to lean very heavily on sing-alongs versus everything else in his toolbox. Can you see a world where Terror is the the OYS style show, where everybody's singing along, and it doesn't have that same type of thing that we're accustomed to?

Speaker 5:
[27:26] So, BODY definitely is in betrayal mode. I've got something a lot of bands don't have, and that's Martin and Chris Linkovich that sing so much of the Terror set.

Speaker 4:
[27:39] You have to three singers in your band, which is pretty sad.

Speaker 5:
[27:41] It's great. I also get like, I don't know if I invented this, but for a very long time, I see anyone singing the words. I physically pull them on stage and give them the microphone like all the time, all the time. Like you're singing this. I do this every night. Just do it. And it's really like, give me a give me a break, please. Please do this. I don't know if this is true, but my knee jerk answer is, if it became too mellow and just about singing, maybe it'd be time for Terror to say, the game is over, pack it up, become a spectator, enjoy the music. You don't need to do this anymore.

Speaker 2:
[28:31] I get the instinct, but your songs are pretty anthemic. You know what I mean? Like you could have the old guy audience.

Speaker 3:
[28:38] He's trying to sell you on becoming Cox Bar. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[28:41] That's what I'm trying to do.

Speaker 4:
[28:42] Well, like you and Scott's gonna do acoustics at some.

Speaker 2:
[28:45] Nah, I'm just saying.

Speaker 3:
[28:46] Look, he's got too good a head of hair for the Cox Bar thing right now. Maybe, let's talk in five years. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5:
[28:56] I mean, there were some dark days of terror with way too much violence at our shows, like early to mid-2000s. And that's how the whole more stage dive thing came about. Like I was literally thinking, what can I do to stop people from fighting at our shows? And I'm like, maybe if I try to make everyone move up and concentrate on stage diving, that'll take some attention off of what's going on in this mosh world. That's where I really started leaning into that. But a single lot, like, I mean, I think we all know what a perfect show is. There is no horseshoe. There's about seven rows of people packed up front that know all the words and they're getting dove on. There is also an awesome pit going on. There's people in the back also singing. And there's just a great energy. And maybe someone is getting a black eye, but it's not because someone's trying to punch them. It's because someone's mashing so hard because they caught an elbow.

Speaker 3:
[30:07] It's just part of the action. That's right.

Speaker 5:
[30:08] So when we don't have one of those shows out of 30, if we do a whole tour and it's just singing, then it's time to pack it up. But a good sing-along is an amazing thing.

Speaker 3:
[30:23] Right. We just, we just, yeah. You're describing that and all three of us are hearing the angels and bells in the background because that's heaven, right? You know, and that puts us in the great minority in the world, but everybody listening, I think, is with us. So Scott, I think I mentioned we were going to play some games. Would you like to play a game of hardcore this or that?

Speaker 5:
[30:42] Love to.

Speaker 3:
[30:43] All right. I'm going to start us off. This is the question I thought of first. It's too bad.

Speaker 5:
[30:47] I got a question. Is this just to me or are there other?

Speaker 3:
[30:51] It's just to you, but we can't keep our opinions to ourselves. Yeah, we're going to aim at you and then we'll circle around.

Speaker 4:
[30:56] Right. It's a game we've done in the past. It's like two things that you probably like both. If you had to choose, what are you going to choose? And why? And no disrespect to whoever loses.

Speaker 3:
[31:07] It's love versus love. It's chocolate and peanut butter. You know what I mean? You just pick the one. This one's going to go for you. Mad Ball or Earth Crisis?

Speaker 5:
[31:19] Wow.

Speaker 3:
[31:20] I know. I didn't start easy. I didn't start easy. I started on you pro level.

Speaker 5:
[31:25] Am I allowed to give one answer and then jock both?

Speaker 3:
[31:28] Absolutely.

Speaker 4:
[31:29] Yes, that's what we do all the time.

Speaker 3:
[31:30] It's expectation.

Speaker 5:
[31:33] I'd have to say Mad Ball because. Like they just have records and songs that I connect with so much. But living in Buffalo, so close to Syracuse, you know, like I have a real connection to Earth Crisis and seeing their, like I don't know if I saw their first show, but their very early shows. They were an incredibly energetic band that did something super unique. And on top of that, it cannot be understated that they are still a straight-edge vegan band like that. Two things that I am not. I've never been straight-edge. I was vegan for a long time, but I am not. But it cannot be understated that they're still doing that. That is unbelievable.

Speaker 3:
[32:28] What was your, like, what are some of your earliest impressions of that? And like being a guy from Buffalo, like you said, Western New York, you're close enough to Syracuse. Did you know any of those guys beforehand? What was that early gestation? And then to see what that became sort of, not right away, but pretty quickly, they became a movement, you know?

Speaker 5:
[32:49] So I, Buffalo's about two, a little over two hours to Syracuse. And in the early 90s, that scene really started taking off and having really good shows. So I would go there at least once a month, if not twice, if not three times a month for a show. And I had seen the band Before Earth Crisis Framework, which is basically all the members of Earth Crisis without Carl with this guy, Shane Durgin. It's really good. It's melodic. It's heavy, but he could actually sing, and it was really good. And my first introduction with Earth Crisis was, I'm just standing in the Lost Horizon, and the guitarist of Framework walks up to me, and this is Ben Reed, the early guitarist of Earth Crisis, who literally has... Maybe him and Vic DeCara have the sickest stage presence I've ever seen with someone with a guitar in their hand. He would go ballistic, and he walked up to me. I like to romanticize this story, that what I'm about to say was because he was liberating an animal from a cage, but he had this cut across his whole face, all the way across his face, and he's a little guy, not intimidating, but just walks up to me and was like, do you want to buy this 7-inch in my new band? I'm like, sure. I give him like $3. And I went home and put this on, and this was when I was in a band called Slugfest, and Tim Redmond, the drummer that people know from Snapcase, was in the band with me, and we were like a mosh duel. We loved to mosh. And I got the 7-inch and I went home and I put it on, and it was just so, like first of all, the lyrics were just so militant and insane, and the backup vocals were like off time and like one person just like screaming. And like, I just remember calling Tim, I'm like, you are not going to believe what I'm hearing. Like, we are going to mosh so hard to this, and we did. And they like just, and Carl just was, I remember one time Carl took me into his car. He was like, Scott, I got a new like, it was like a Dodge Ram truck or something like that. And like, you know, I know him a little bit, not a ton at this time. And he takes me into his car and we're just sitting there in the parking lot. And he's like, should be good for running people over, wouldn't it? And I'm like, damn, you are your lyrics.

Speaker 3:
[35:22] All right, who's up? Tom, take it.

Speaker 4:
[35:25] Sure. All right, this is going to be tough and I apologize as a New Yorker.

Speaker 5:
[35:29] I like it.

Speaker 4:
[35:31] Li Wei or Killing Time?

Speaker 5:
[35:33] Li Wei.

Speaker 4:
[35:36] Hands down?

Speaker 5:
[35:36] Yeah, I mean, you cannot take anything away from Killing Time. There's just Born To Expire. Like, I think I'm... All right, here's something where I'm going to get in trouble with the youth that I need. I need the youth, but I'm about to like, give them a karate chop in the throat. Anyone that tells me Desperate Measures is better than Born To Expire, but like, I can't take it.

Speaker 3:
[36:04] Thank you, Scott.

Speaker 5:
[36:05] I can't take it.

Speaker 3:
[36:06] Thank you, Scott.

Speaker 5:
[36:07] And the sad part-

Speaker 3:
[36:09] How do we become the minority on this?

Speaker 5:
[36:12] I don't know, but the beautiful-

Speaker 3:
[36:13] I like your zine, Born To Expire fanzine, by the way.

Speaker 5:
[36:17] Desperate Measures is like a nine out of ten. Like, it's not bad. It's amazing. Pokey's drumming is amazing, but like, there is just something about Born To Expire that is just so perfect to me. It's just such a good record. And I'm saying that while I'm like, ignoring the raw deal demo and Brightside, those are close to perfect, too. But like, just something about Liway is really one of my favorites.

Speaker 4:
[36:47] Do you mess with the later era Liway stuff? Like Open Mouth Kiss and the Out of Crash? Have you revisited it in a while?

Speaker 5:
[36:57] There's a song called State on one of those two records. It's like a heroin song. It's like, you got me stuck on the tracks. I don't know. And like Pokey's drumming on that is amazing. And there's songs and parts, but it's almost leaning into like grungy, which really isn't my thing. And it's like one of those things like, can you please just do what I want? Don't do what you guys want as a musician. I know it, just do what I want. But you know, I get it.

Speaker 3:
[37:29] Born To Expire, part of it, I think, for me, is that I imprinted on it young, young it became. In my town, it might as well have gone in the mail with Calgon. We all love Born To Expire, and we all liked Desperate Measure, you know? Desperate Measure is a great record. But Born To Expire is just this like explosion of personality and energy and still this like, it was the exact right amount of metal that I wanted from my New York hardcore. And I just, I love it so much. So happy to hear that. Born To Expire fan club coming soon. Patrick.

Speaker 2:
[38:07] Scott, I got one for you. There's very few 53 year old men, I could ask this question and get an honest answer or an answer that is cogent, makes sense. 2000s or 2010s?

Speaker 3:
[38:23] That's a fun one.

Speaker 5:
[38:24] Do you mean 2000 to 2010, and 2000 to 2020? Or just those two years?

Speaker 3:
[38:31] 2000 to 2009, 10, whatever, 2010 to 2020, you know?

Speaker 5:
[38:36] You know what? This is like going off track here, but Yoon, the kid from Atlanta. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[38:45] Shut out.

Speaker 5:
[38:46] He said something to me so crazy, I thought was so crazy at LDB, just like what it feels like two months ago. We were just sitting around bullshitting. And he said that hardcore right now, man, I hope I'm not misquoting him. I hope if I'm saying this wrong, it was something along the lines of like right now, hardcore has the best bands it's ever had. And I was like, you're gonna compare right now to 1990? Like I could not imagine being in New York City and having all the hardcore like 1988 to 1992, and all the hip hop at that time. Like it's just like fucking mind blowing to me. And when he said this, I wanted to be like, are you fucking insane? But I also think it's fucking beautiful that he thinks that. That must mean things are really good right now. Of course, there's great fucking bands right now. But again, maybe it goes back to when you got into this. That's what's precious to you. But back to the question. 2000 to 2010. Man, I think I'd have to go for the first half of the 2000s. I think I'd have to go with like Ill Blood and Bitter End and Early Trapped Under Ice. When Trash Talk shows first, I first saw one of those and I was like, this front man is insane. And like, yeah, I think I'm going to go with that.

Speaker 2:
[40:32] It's a good question.

Speaker 3:
[40:33] I think it's a good question. We should let's throw that one out for a full up. Like that's a whole episode for us to dive on that. All right.

Speaker 2:
[40:41] Hold on. I want to let Scott just do me a favor. Expand on one thing for me. You don't seem to have an ounce of hater in you. Is that true?

Speaker 5:
[40:52] No, that is not true.

Speaker 4:
[40:54] You haven't lost to Scott on the side, have you?

Speaker 5:
[40:56] That is not true.

Speaker 2:
[40:58] I ask because you're gracious about everybody that does something well. And sometimes, I'm not saying you can't... If you dislike something, that's one thing, but you give respect verbally in front of whoever to anybody that is... Like, you don't... It doesn't sound like you're in competition with anybody. It sounds like you're able to say, yo, that dude does it right. And not everybody has that. That's why I say you don't come off like a hater at all, because most people pause. Like, these guys can see it. Sometimes I'll just swallow my tongue. When it's time to talk about a certain person, I'll just go, yeah. But you seem to give flowers to everybody who deserves it. You think you got a little secret hater in you?

Speaker 5:
[41:47] I see a lot of things that disappoint me, that bother me. You know, if we were going in a different direction and talking about all the things in hardcore then and now that bother me, I could talk on all those things too. Like, there's a lot of shit that bothers me. But so far, the vibe has been very positive. And whether it's like, whether it like, I remember the first time I saw Fury and the singer just ripped the stage up. I went up to him. I was like, dude, you can I have some of your energy? Like, you just really impressed me. You got it. You fucking got it. So I have no problem giving complements where I see do. But there's a lot. There's a lot of shit that bothers me.

Speaker 3:
[42:33] I think I think it's true for anyone who's been around and they've seen enough. You know what I mean?

Speaker 4:
[42:39] We got a Fury record and you think we'll get a Fury record in next year?

Speaker 3:
[42:43] Next year, maybe not.

Speaker 4:
[42:44] In the next year. I mean, they're playing more.

Speaker 5:
[42:48] They're like the opposite of Terror. They have no problem doing a U-turn on their sound. It's wild.

Speaker 3:
[42:53] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[42:54] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[42:55] And taking the damn time with records. No, the last record, both their LPs are really phenomenal. Failed entertainment. All right, Scott, let me see. I'm gonna let you decide. You want me to do two bands or two labels?

Speaker 5:
[43:09] Labels.

Speaker 3:
[43:10] Victory or Initial?

Speaker 5:
[43:14] Oh, that's tough.

Speaker 4:
[43:16] Your experience is on both or the bands on the other?

Speaker 3:
[43:19] I want his. You give us whatever. You want to go catalogs, you want to go the experience, the whole thing.

Speaker 5:
[43:24] Andy Rich from Initial Records actually text me today, and that's not a very often occurrence, so that's coincidental.

Speaker 3:
[43:33] Synchromisticism.

Speaker 5:
[43:34] Contrary to a lot of stories you heard, I had a pretty good relationship with Tony. And I mean, it's probably because we didn't sell so many records that we thought he owed us a bunch of money.

Speaker 3:
[43:49] Sure, that helps.

Speaker 5:
[43:50] If he wanted to get crazy on me, I can go crazy right back at him. I'm not fucking normal at all. So if he wants to like walking around with him in Chicago and him doing like weird stuff, I'll just do it with him. Like I don't fuck with him. But victory, I mean, I'm going to start with the loser of this battle, which is an initial records, but like like Falling Forward, Elliot, like Mark Bricky and the and Kindles. What a character that fucking wacko. He lived when I didn't live in Buffalo. He lived in Buffalo. Like that's so bizarre.

Speaker 4:
[44:30] He moved from Louisville to Buffalo.

Speaker 5:
[44:32] Yeah, probably for a female, I'm guessing, but I'm not sure.

Speaker 4:
[44:36] He was a party guy, like a party front man before that was like a thing.

Speaker 5:
[44:40] Yeah, he was like, you know, he's got a lot of personality. I used to have like a handwritten letter where I sent initial, I think the Slugfest 7-inch trying to get a, let's call it signed. He wrote back like, thanks, but no thanks, but this Metro Shifters touring, if you can book the show. I was like, eh.

Speaker 3:
[45:04] Not going to scratch your back, but can you give me a hand here?

Speaker 5:
[45:07] But initial really cool people and that movement in Louisville was really musically cool. And those people were always good to, eventually, he did put out the Slugfest record on a CD and some despair stuff and a really cool label that probably is kind of lost to time, right?

Speaker 3:
[45:27] I think they're lost. I don't think there's enough talk. There's a, you know, it's one of these things that we talk about here and there is that, you know, the nineties gets talked about a lot, but you lose certain things. Like initial was a thing, man, you know, like I remember being young and it was sort of like, oh, that's something you should know about. You don't need to know, but if you know it, it was cool. I remember tracking that, I thought the Despair 7-inch had one of the coolest covers.

Speaker 5:
[45:53] I did, that was a good cover.

Speaker 3:
[45:55] That's a cool looking record. And initial did a lot of cool stuff. Shout out to the very Distro catalog.

Speaker 4:
[46:00] Shout out John Dudak, man.

Speaker 5:
[46:04] What a great guy. I think maybe the thing that could hold initial back in the front of people's minds or in the middle would be like Ink and Dagger. They're like cult classic. But to pivot to Victory, I mean, look what they have. Like, do I even have to say it? They put out Satisfaction, they put out All Out War, they put out Ringworm, they put out...

Speaker 3:
[46:33] Integrity.

Speaker 5:
[46:34] And then...

Speaker 4:
[46:34] Integrity, Strife.

Speaker 3:
[46:37] So much stuff.

Speaker 5:
[46:37] Yeah, right. They redid that Raid record.

Speaker 2:
[46:43] They did so much of that stuff.

Speaker 3:
[46:45] Re-press the Insight 7 inches, all the greats, you know?

Speaker 5:
[46:49] I love vegan mosh. I love vegan mosh.

Speaker 3:
[46:54] All right, Tom, you're up.

Speaker 4:
[46:55] Yeah. Pat, what are you going to say?

Speaker 2:
[46:57] No, no, no. I can talk about vegan mosh too much. Let's keep it moving.

Speaker 4:
[47:01] I mean, you are vegan mosh.

Speaker 3:
[47:02] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[47:05] All right, later on, we're going to do a very quick drink champs, this or that, running through a speed run of hip hop stuff, because I know that's your shit. We'll get to that later on.

Speaker 3:
[47:15] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[47:17] Let's see. Where do we go? We go... All right, here's one. Because I feel like you like a melodic, and Pat likes to shit on one of these bands. Bold or Beyond?

Speaker 5:
[47:34] I'm going to go beyond, but I... Nice. I mean, beyond is just, it's just so good. It's so musical. It's unique. Like Alan Cage, whatever he touches, the whole record is just unbelievable. I love BOLD, and I love E-Town Concrete. But when people tell me they don't like those bands, I get it. I can understand. But I am a fan of both of them, but I get it. And what BOLD has that beyond doesn't have is, if you pick up, speak out, you don't even have to listen to it. Every picture, every bit of that layout is the coolest fucking thing in the world. And I have to say this, as someone that just said they really love BOLD, the layout is actually better than the record.

Speaker 2:
[48:39] Thank you. That's it.

Speaker 4:
[48:40] Are you a looking back guy or you're a speak out guy?

Speaker 5:
[48:44] I'm a speak out guy over the seven inch. The looking back thing, I know it exists, but I never owned it. It's kind of like a discography, right?

Speaker 3:
[48:53] Looking back, it's just the seven inch plus a couple extra tracks. Okay.

Speaker 5:
[48:59] I like speak out better than the seven inch. And I would get, I don't want to speak for Pat, but I bet he likes the seven inch better than speak out if he had to listen to one.

Speaker 2:
[49:10] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[49:13] If he had to, if he was chained down to a railroad track.

Speaker 2:
[49:18] If this was the motion picture saw, and the only way that I could get out of the death trap was to listen to one or the other. Scott, can I put you in a position, California or Northeast?

Speaker 4:
[49:32] Do that to the camera.

Speaker 5:
[49:36] Buffalo. I'm going to say this. These fucking weathers are this. This winter is might have broke me like it's it was fucking cold, but I don't want to disparage California, but. It's so crowded, it's so I'm not good with the heat. I hate sweating. I'm I'm going on tour for 25 years straight. I do not need to socialize. I don't need to be in lines. I don't I go. I go to the supermarket alone with headphones in. I walk. I go to the movies alone. I go to sporting events alone. And this is when I do anything because I I'm fine with seeing nobody for a month because when I go on for tour, all I do is see people every second for a month. So LA is that it's just too much for me. It's too much in so many ways.

Speaker 2:
[50:37] All right, Scott, can we very quickly? I'm trying not to monopolize you. Can we discuss as guys who tour a lot, the phenomenon of, oh, the guy, my homie for years, the guy I love is in this town. Jesus, I hope he doesn't go to this show.

Speaker 5:
[50:55] You know what my version of that is now? I drank on tour every day for 20 years, and now I don't. And I actually have learned how, I don't wanna say annoying, but how off-putting drunk people can be when you are not drunk. And most of the people that come out that are my long-time friends still love to drink. So I know that very too well. I know. And I'm high. I'll hide. I don't give a... And my band knows. They help me hide. They want me to hide. They don't want me to be around these people.

Speaker 3:
[51:39] All right. Let's go. Let's get in some more bands here. Do you want older or newer?

Speaker 5:
[51:49] Let's try a newer one.

Speaker 3:
[51:51] It's not that new, but it's a little more contemporary. Nails or carry-on?

Speaker 5:
[52:01] I have to say carry-on because A Life Less Plagued is so fucking good at that thing. That record is the reason why Terror exists, because I was done with music. It's weird because I was just done. I moved to California. All my bands did a little bit and broke up. I was like, this is fucking stupid. I'm done. And my friend Larry from Buffalo, who worked at Rev at the time, I went...

Speaker 3:
[52:30] John Larry Ransom.

Speaker 5:
[52:31] Yes, what a great person. I visited, he was living with Dave Mandel, so I visited him. And he gave me a... And I knew No Warning already, because I had seen them before I left Buffalo. And he gave me, here's the No Warning 7-inch, and Carry-on A Life Less Plagued was on the other side. And I had never even heard that name. And I took it home, and I was like... And this is like 2001, when 18 Visions, bleeding through. That's like what's... Every time I die, that's like really what's popping off. And I got the tape, and I was like, okay, good, Hardcore's like doing some really cool shit. And then I want to say, like a month later, I got this phone call, hey, two guys from Carry-on are starting a new band, and they want you to like sing. And I was like, motherfucker.

Speaker 4:
[53:20] I thought I was out.

Speaker 3:
[53:21] That's right.

Speaker 5:
[53:23] But nails, like they're a little bit outside of my, like I'm not a metal guy. I'm not, I want to like death metal so bad. I try, I try to like get Martine to give me suggestions.

Speaker 2:
[53:37] No, Scott, just give up, man. I'm with you.

Speaker 5:
[53:40] I can't do it. I want to do it.

Speaker 3:
[53:42] I feel the pull. I've tried, I keep trying.

Speaker 4:
[53:44] I mean, yeah, Cannibal Corpse is like your local band and shit.

Speaker 5:
[53:48] But I will say we just played a terror, just played a month ago, a skate park in, is it or does it do? Does anyone know where obituaries from?

Speaker 4:
[54:02] Tampa.

Speaker 5:
[54:02] Okay. So in Tampa, we played a skate park and this is like a DIY skate park with a little stage in there. They and we have toured with them twice now. They hit up terror. I didn't go because I, like I just said, do not try to socialize. They took everyone in terror out to eat and bought them drinks and then came to the skate park in their home city where they're like literal celebrities, walked through the crowd with their own cans of beer, stood on the side of the stage and were like partying and having so much fun. Acting like not like where's the, there was no green room. They were just, so they are my favorite death metal band now. But Nails is so intense and Todd is just such a fucking, like his personality, it just, it's Nails, like it just.

Speaker 3:
[54:58] Yes, it's so him. It's so the perfect expression of, if you've ever dealt with Todd when he's revved up, that's Nails.

Speaker 5:
[55:08] I also have told Todd and I will forever wish I came up with the title, They All Come Crawling Back. That is such a hardcore title. Like I wish I could, I wish that was mine.

Speaker 3:
[55:22] No, he's, we're gonna get him on at some point because that's a dude who loves hardcore like nobody's business. So, all right, Tom, you're up.

Speaker 4:
[55:32] All right, let's do, we won't do, I got a couple more bands, we can go back to that. Here's one that I think will scratch an itch for you. And I think will be surprising to people that may not know your musical taste.

Speaker 5:
[55:46] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[55:48] Midwest Emo, New York Post Hardcore. You go Quicksand, you go American Football, or Texas The Reason, or...

Speaker 5:
[55:59] I gotta do some preliminary, I gotta get some, I gotta understand what we're talking about here. Is Splitlip Midwest Emo. Oh.

Speaker 2:
[56:08] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[56:09] Before they became Chamberlain, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[56:11] Yeah, we'll do that. Is Falling Forward.

Speaker 2:
[56:13] Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[56:15] Okay, I know the get up kids are. I don't know all that Chicago stuff, cap and jazz and stuff.

Speaker 4:
[56:22] Yeah, I didn't fuck with that back then, but yeah.

Speaker 5:
[56:25] I listened to so much of this ballpark of music, but there's also some stuff like that missed me, cause it's such a big world that I probably would love. But okay, so that, my Midwest Emo are those bands that I just named. I'm trying to think of who else is really Midwest Emo for me. That might be it.

Speaker 4:
[56:49] You throw an endpoint in there?

Speaker 5:
[56:51] I'm not a big endpoint guy.

Speaker 4:
[56:52] No.

Speaker 5:
[56:52] I'm not. I'm really not. Not a big guilt guy.

Speaker 4:
[56:55] No.

Speaker 5:
[56:55] Like respectable, but yeah.

Speaker 4:
[56:57] Not for you. Yeah, I'm trying to think, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[57:00] Okay, now we're going New York Post Hardcore. Is Rival School's New York Post Hardcore? Yes. Yes. That's a big piece to this puzzle. We got Quixen, Rival School's Shift. I like a lot.

Speaker 3:
[57:17] You're a handsome guy?

Speaker 5:
[57:21] Yes, but not huge.

Speaker 3:
[57:22] Yeah, that's about me.

Speaker 5:
[57:28] I am not into another guy.

Speaker 4:
[57:33] We go in Texas Is The Reason, obviously.

Speaker 5:
[57:35] Are they in there, too?

Speaker 4:
[57:37] I think they have to be.

Speaker 3:
[57:37] Put them in there.

Speaker 4:
[57:38] They're not even. I think they're a post-Hardcore band. Those are all hardcore dudes.

Speaker 3:
[57:41] Coming out of Resurrection. Let's go.

Speaker 5:
[57:43] Fun fact to everyone listening, the singer of Texas Is The Reason is from Buffalo. Buffalo.

Speaker 4:
[57:52] I was getting a kick out of seeing pictures of him that you post when he's a kid, like all X'd up, like up front at like a judge show.

Speaker 5:
[57:57] It's like, yeah. He was 1000% in. He was 1000% in. I'm going to have to go to the New York. If Texas Is The Reason, we don't, yeah. I mean, Rival Schools, to me, is watching Sam. Sammy is a great drummer. Watching Sammy with Judge is a beautiful thing, but when he has some time to breathe and really pull off some fills in Rival Schools, it's unbelievable.

Speaker 4:
[58:28] Amazing band. Amazing band. I'd like to talk a little bit more about Shift with you because I feel like they're a band that's been lost to time, and I feel like those, the EVR records, even the first major label record.

Speaker 5:
[58:39] That's the one I know the best. Get in, get out.

Speaker 4:
[58:41] Yeah. I wanna be rich. It's a great fucking record. But the EVR ones, like Pathos and whatever, like, dude, so good. And then they kind of came and went and sort of, the drummer became the drummer Motley Crue for a little bit.

Speaker 5:
[58:57] I met her once with Sammy. We, it sounds so stupid, but we met up in Toluca Lake to get a protein shake, literally.

Speaker 3:
[59:09] Welcome to California.

Speaker 5:
[59:10] And he's like, this is my friend Samantha. And I'm like, looking at her, looking at her. I'm like, I know who you are.

Speaker 2:
[59:16] You were in Shift for a year.

Speaker 5:
[59:18] She probably thought I was going to go and you were in Hole or Motley Crue. Went right for the gusto.

Speaker 2:
[59:25] Scott, related to Shift, what's something that you've been around long enough and you've toured an awful lot. What's a band that you thought had it and went away before they should have?

Speaker 5:
[59:42] Oh, that's a good question. It's a band I thought had it and went away. I mean, I don't know if this is exact, maybe if we keep talking, something will pop into my head that answers this more directly. But like, Conviction, which is pre-Turmoil, is such, to me, yeah, they're just such a powerful, like they're mosh parts to me. Like, if someone covered a Conviction song right now, I would not be able to stop myself. It's on. It's on no matter what. And on that same note, I think Turmoil is so explosively energetic and just has something so special. And I know, like, just recently, they've been getting a little bit of love, which is great, but I think they're a little bit underappreciated. But I know that's really not what you're asking me. What was a band?

Speaker 2:
[60:55] I mean, Conviction certainly counts, and you can you are confirmed moshers because the problem with Conviction is they don't have songs. So like I say this is I say this is a casual fan of the band. They have mosh parts. There's no doubt about that. But the songs don't come together into like something memorable enough. But you are confirmed moshers if you are if you rank that band, because that's what they have on offer. So that's interesting.

Speaker 5:
[61:22] I would say their their vocalist is the weakest point. So you might I might agree with everything you're saying. I really want to want to like, I mean, maybe this is like, like I don't exactly know what happened, but like that band Gloss was like taking over the world and they just disappeared. Like, that's something I saw coming and this kind of went away. I don't know if that's exactly like the.

Speaker 2:
[61:55] I mean, that counts.

Speaker 3:
[61:56] I think that's this weird, it's almost this weird modern phenomenon because we're seeing that a little more where it feels like there's things that are like meteoric, like just come burn out and then it's just gone. And people's memories of it, it's like gone and then like, how often have you heard anyone talk about Gloss in the last five years? Meanwhile, three years before that, that was all anyone could talk about.

Speaker 5:
[62:20] I'm trying to think of a band that I saw that I was like, oh, they're going to do it. They have it and no one else saw it that way. And they really, they tried and it just didn't catch. Let's keep going. And if something pops into my head, I'll bring it back up.

Speaker 3:
[62:36] All right, we'll pull it in here. Pull it into center.

Speaker 2:
[62:41] Regarding to this or that.

Speaker 3:
[62:43] You're going to skip me.

Speaker 2:
[62:46] No, no, sorry. I don't know what the extent of your sort of melodic love is, but let's do a Leatherface or Jawbreaker.

Speaker 5:
[62:59] I got to go Leatherface because they did a split with the greatest band ever, Hotwater Music.

Speaker 2:
[63:03] Wow, that's all it takes.

Speaker 5:
[63:05] I mean, that's also a cover up for that. I don't know either of those bands too well. So that's my biggest connection.

Speaker 4:
[63:12] Good answer.

Speaker 2:
[63:14] As a lyricist, you got to go down, either one, honestly, but Leatherface, you got to go down the Leatherface hall as a lyricist. You're going to cry. You saying that you can get emotional about certain songs, listen to Mush, you're going to become mushy.

Speaker 5:
[63:32] Pat, let me tell you something about myself. I often, more often than I like to admit, try to find movies to make me cry. That is a good movie to me. I don't exactly know what that means. And I have go-to movies.

Speaker 3:
[63:53] To bring out the tears?

Speaker 5:
[63:55] Yeah. And I'm not talking like balling, but if it can push me to that point where I have to hold it back or a couple of tears drop, that's what I want out of a movie. And like that's like when I see a trailer and I'm like, oh shit, this might make me cry. I can't wait to watch this. That's literally what I want.

Speaker 3:
[64:12] That's the desire to feel emotion. That's good. All right. All right. I'm going to bring it back easy core here. Confront or brotherhood?

Speaker 5:
[64:22] Oh, that's, that's tough.

Speaker 3:
[64:26] I'm just trying to throw you some burly late 80s straight edge. Let's go.

Speaker 5:
[64:30] I mean, I'm going to again start with the loser of this battle. I really love confront. I really do.

Speaker 3:
[64:39] I had no idea where you were going to go. I'm so excited to hear this.

Speaker 5:
[64:43] I have to say two things. Brotherhood, like for, I don't know if they're like youth crewy or whatever they are.

Speaker 3:
[64:53] Right.

Speaker 5:
[64:55] They're actually really good musicians. Like that is played very well. I saw them live. They came to Buffalo with The Accused, and I saw them.

Speaker 3:
[65:09] Oh, I've seen that flyer. That's an amazing flyer.

Speaker 5:
[65:11] They were awesome live. They've got the Fuck Racism shirt, which is amazing.

Speaker 3:
[65:18] Perfect Hardcore shirt, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[65:20] But bringing it back to the Leatherface thing, they also share members with Sunny Day Real Estate. So that's why they win.

Speaker 3:
[65:29] There we go.

Speaker 4:
[65:30] Nate Mendel.

Speaker 5:
[65:32] Unbelievable.

Speaker 4:
[65:35] Did you ever get to be friendly with Ron in the 90s and 2000s?

Speaker 5:
[65:39] I got two stories about Ron. The first time I ever saw him, he was in Buffalo. He was tour managing Orange Nine Millimeter. I don't know the connection at all.

Speaker 4:
[65:50] Oh, weird.

Speaker 5:
[65:51] But they played with Sick of It All, and I saw him, and I was like, fuck. And I went up to him and jocked him about Brotherhood. And I tried to pitch him because this is when he was doing Overkill Records and he just put out the Those Who Fear Tomorrow. And I was like, I got this band Slugfest. It would be perfect for your label or whatever I said. And again, I've never been straight edge. But during this talk, I noticed that he had a beer next to him, and then he took a sip. And I was like, the guy from Brotherhood can't fucking drink?

Speaker 2:
[66:22] Like, I was like, what's going on?

Speaker 1:
[66:24] You should have said that to him.

Speaker 3:
[66:26] Years later, people would be like, the guy from Goatsnake was drinking a beer? Weird, all right.

Speaker 5:
[66:32] More recently, like, I'm not, I don't remember what year he passed away, but probably for maybe like three years before that, he would come out to terror shows, seemed like a really, really good guy. And that's really sad. So I, yeah, I met him that one time back in the day, and then probably saw him about three times. He would just come to terror shows and just say hi, and we'd talk for five minutes and seemed super nice.

Speaker 3:
[66:58] Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:
[67:01] Tom, I think that's you.

Speaker 4:
[67:03] All right, I got three more hardcore ones.

Speaker 5:
[67:06] Just so you guys know, I love this. What we're doing, this is like, people in terror make fun of me, because when I can find young people in bands, like when we toured with like Abusive Power and like Yoon, and I know they want to talk about hardcore, all I do is go up to them and like, all right, what's the topic?

Speaker 3:
[67:23] It's the premise of the show.

Speaker 4:
[67:25] Yeah, and I think we've all done that with younger folks. It's like, I love to talk about this shit more than anything. Like this is sports, I'll talk about it to anybody. But for someone to be like, oh, what was this like? I'd be like, well, you know what, let me tell you. Pull up a seat, let's talk about what, fuck, you know. This one's gonna be tough.

Speaker 5:
[67:42] One second. If we weren't being recorded and put out to the world, Pat could see the real me, but go ahead.

Speaker 4:
[67:50] Me and Scott have had some good conversations. I was like, is this really happening? I go, I don't think so, man. It's like, what happened with this band? I'm like, I don't know. We just, so this is a tough one because one of them is part of your email address and one of them is an OG friend of yours that toured with Buried Alive and is a wonderful guy, Mike Scor. All Out War or Marauder. I feel like those are the two top of the pops of that style. There's nobody better. That's true. 100 Demons is in there too, but that style of music, there's no better bands than those three.

Speaker 5:
[68:27] Oh, that is tough. I mean, the only bands that can touch these two are like Cold As Life, Stigmata, Dying Breed, for if you want to listen to actual, like actual, like devastatingly hard music done by people that live it. That's like my holy grail.

Speaker 4:
[68:50] Devastatingly hard.

Speaker 5:
[68:51] Yeah, I don't put Death Red in there. Death Red might be my favorite.

Speaker 4:
[68:55] Hardcore, right?

Speaker 5:
[68:56] Yeah, they might be my favorite of all the bands in there. But, um, hmm. Oh, man, that's tough. I mean, I love Mike Scorer, one of my favorite people, but Master Killer is that Carl Earth Christ, as I heard him say one time, Master Killer, Masterpiece. So that's what I'm going with. What a fucking record.

Speaker 4:
[69:22] You know what a hot take, though? Wall Out War has more good records than Marauder. Yes. Yes, but Marauder's got the one.

Speaker 5:
[69:31] Yeah. I'm a five-

Speaker 4:
[69:33] Wall Out War's got a couple of records.

Speaker 5:
[69:34] I'm a Five Deadly Venoms guy, too. It's pretty good with Poki. It's pretty good.

Speaker 4:
[69:37] It is good. Mike from Candiria.

Speaker 5:
[69:40] Yeah, that's pretty good.

Speaker 4:
[69:41] But I even like the Until record, that last one. Or is it Until? The last LP they put out. It's like good. It's his voice.

Speaker 5:
[69:52] I mean, Mike's voice, too, but his or his voice is unbelievable. Unbelievable creates stagefaces. Just a good frontman.

Speaker 4:
[70:01] He's the best. Shout out to Jorge. It's my guy. All right. Do you have other ones or do you want me to go through the other two I have? Patrick.

Speaker 2:
[70:09] Oh, I'm I'm ready to pop. You go.

Speaker 4:
[70:12] Oh, go ahead.

Speaker 5:
[70:13] I want a vegan one. I want a vegan one.

Speaker 2:
[70:17] Oh, I mean, listen, we could. I'm going down holes that I didn't know existed on vegan, that's really, yeah. We can get into those, but I want to. I don't know the limits of your affection for heavy music. We hit that you and I are both not death metal guys. OK. You've toured with an awful lot of metalcore bands. So you got to, you at least hold your nose. Take the personal affection for the people involved out of it. Would you go, would you go southern California, like Orange County, Orange County Metalcore, or Weirdo Southeast Christian Metalcore?

Speaker 5:
[71:06] Definitely the southern California one. The south, like Florida Christians, like Strongarm and stuff like that?

Speaker 2:
[71:13] Strongarm, Zay-O, that sort of, well, Zay-O's like West Virginia, but that sort of shit.

Speaker 5:
[71:17] Out of that, Stretch Armstrong, if they're applicable, is really good band and good people, but too hardcore.

Speaker 2:
[71:26] I'm talking pure, kind of past the point that you probably actually enjoy and into that realm where you go, I like this band more than that band because they have attributes. I assume that you're an every time I die guy because those are probably your guys, right? But you might not reach for it otherwise. You don't have to say that out loud.

Speaker 5:
[71:51] I will say out loud, I love the people and every time I die, but they know that it's not my musical wheelhouse at all. Like not at all.

Speaker 2:
[71:59] Okay. So that's what I mean is where do you get off the bus? You know what I mean? And Orange County has more mosh. So I thought, okay, he's probably going to go Orange County, whereas the Southeast stuff has a bit more proper metal to it. So I kind of anticipated, but you never know what's the absolute limit for Scott Vogel without disrespecting anybody. We're not talking about shit you think sucks. I'm saying the last record that you reach for in terms of this is no longer hardcore music. This is now into metal, but I like it.

Speaker 5:
[72:39] I'm going to say this. I was never on the bus for any of those bands. I can appreciate those bands. I don't know if I like any of... I don't say I dislike it. I don't know it. And it's just not for me. I broke my hand mashing to 18 Vision because they're my friends and they have some hard fucking parts and I can go off to it live. But I didn't own... I don't know if I've ever owned a Bleeding Through record. Is Throwdown, are they part of this?

Speaker 3:
[73:16] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[73:17] Throwdown... So, Scott, you tell me...

Speaker 3:
[73:20] You could say that might be your logical limit.

Speaker 2:
[73:22] Yeah, I delineate between Metalcore and Mosh Metal. That's Mosh Metal to me.

Speaker 5:
[73:29] What is Buried Alive?

Speaker 2:
[73:31] Yeah, you're a hardcore band that touched... that began to kiss the fingers of Mosh Metal.

Speaker 5:
[73:39] Okay, okay. Thank you. I like that, because I don't know what we are sometimes. Hey, Throwdown Haymaker is really good. The earlier stuff, it must do something because I have seen like the Keith Throwdown have a thousand people sing their songs. But it was like, you know, that's not my thing either. Yeah, I don't know enough about this stuff. I've never had... If you threw like 20 of the bands at me, maybe one of them, I would say, oh, that's cool. But I don't really like musically ride for any of that. A lot of them are my friends and I can appreciate it. But yeah, even Poison The Well, what's their big record? Ocpsis of December?

Speaker 4:
[74:21] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[74:21] I don't know it. I never, it's not... Nope.

Speaker 4:
[74:24] Yeah, it's in a weird time that you might not have been fucking with any of that type of stuff. And you didn't tour with it. So you're like, just never hit your radar. That makes sense.

Speaker 3:
[74:32] All right, this is my last one. And it's funny, because I didn't know what a sunny day had you were. I hope I'm not putting you in a spot.

Speaker 5:
[74:41] Dan, Dan. No, that's the answer.

Speaker 3:
[74:43] Sunny day real estate or quicksand? I know. I was like, it was a random one, but I figured that might hit a spot.

Speaker 5:
[74:54] I am not scared. Walter knows that I jock the shit out of him. Like I'll tell him to your face, like what's it like to be the coolest person in the world and stuff like that. Yeah. And we just did a tour in Europe with GB and shared a bus with them. And he was like, Scott, you're like the nicest person. You're just doing nice stuff for people all the time. And I'm like, I'm just doing this for you, Walter. I didn't say this, but I'm just like...

Speaker 3:
[75:25] It's all for you.

Speaker 5:
[75:26] So what I'm about to say, I've told him. So I am not a manic compression guy. I'm not. I can't... There are two records that I try every three or so years to get into because I want to like them. The Earth is Flat by Super Touch.

Speaker 2:
[75:44] I'm right there. Yep.

Speaker 5:
[75:45] And manic compression. I want to like them, but I don't. So that said, I'm going Sunny Day. But Rivals.

Speaker 3:
[75:56] See, if I was going to say, if I said Rivals Schools, that's a tough one. I think Rivals Schools has a flawless catalog. Flawless.

Speaker 5:
[76:04] The song, Small Doses by Rivals Schools might be my favorite song in the world. Now, maybe there's like a Tom Petty song or something that's the next level. But Small Doses is one of my favorite songs ever written. I think it still goes Sunday. Sometimes I'm listening to Sunday Day Real Estate, and he's singing so high and saying there's the weirdest phrases. And I'm like, why the fuck do I like this so much? I don't know. It's like weird, but...

Speaker 2:
[76:43] That's the Into Another experience too.

Speaker 5:
[76:46] That's the idea. Like my friend Busky, one of my best friends, he loves Into Another, and I'll just be like, dude, I don't get it.

Speaker 3:
[76:52] It doesn't connect, huh?

Speaker 5:
[76:53] Yeah, it's just them and Orange Nine. It just never did it for me.

Speaker 3:
[76:56] Into Another of those, so Orange Nine never did it, but Into Another. At some point, when I was young, I listened and didn't connect. And then at some point, it just opened up. And put them on your three to five year list.

Speaker 5:
[77:11] Here's a strange thing about, excuse me. Here's a strange thing about Into Another. The newest thing they put out, like-

Speaker 3:
[77:18] Omen's, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[77:19] Yeah, that was good. That was my favorite. That was the best thing I heard about them.

Speaker 3:
[77:23] They're interesting. Look, I had a friend, I have a friend, good friend, who I was obsessing on Quicksand. I'm like, he's like, you listen to Slip every day. And I'm like, that's right. And yeah, me. And he was, Dave was like, he's like, I just don't care. He called me from tour. And this is now 20 years ago. He calls me from tour. And he's like, I was in San Diego after a show at the Che cafe and Slip was on. And I finally got it. I finally got it. Okay. And that's the thing I think we all, like you said about you listen to Earth is Flat, you listen to Manic Compression. We've talked about it here too. There's these records that you're like, I want to like this.

Speaker 5:
[78:03] I want to so bad.

Speaker 3:
[78:04] Every few years you revisit. Have a revisit list people. That's our lesson. All right, I'm out. I'm out of questions. So Tom, you hit them with a few.

Speaker 4:
[78:11] Nobody's writing for Orange Nine Millimeter. I'm very, this offends me.

Speaker 3:
[78:14] I love Burn so much and it just never, Orange Nine I've tried.

Speaker 4:
[78:17] The Rev record and that first album. Oh man.

Speaker 2:
[78:21] I actually, I like the corporate record.

Speaker 3:
[78:23] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[78:23] Oh, I mean, I feel like that Revelation record is just unbelievable.

Speaker 5:
[78:29] Can I do Truth Time?

Speaker 4:
[78:31] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[78:31] Oh, yeah. Safe space.

Speaker 5:
[78:35] What year is all the stuff happening? 92, 93?

Speaker 3:
[78:38] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[78:38] Yeah. 93, 94 for Orange Nine, probably.

Speaker 3:
[78:40] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[78:41] I'm way too hardcore for my own good.

Speaker 2:
[78:45] Everybody has that experience. 100 percent, yes.

Speaker 5:
[78:48] It's the guy from Burn and then they go to that. It's like Underdogs, one of my favorite bands, and I'm mature now. I totally get it. I'm older. I'm more mature. But just like those things being thrown at me, I was just like, I can't do this.

Speaker 3:
[79:06] I think that's something I don't think it's talked about of the 90s experience. Look, we all can now look back and say, these are some incredible bands. But in the moment, there was also a feeling of betrayal. There was a feeling of like, yo, these guys were hardcore and now they're kind of not. And what does that mean? And look, I was a young guy getting in stuff in the mid 90s and being really young and remember those conversations like, yeah, this is the band they did after the good stuff, you know? And that had like a lasting impression.

Speaker 5:
[79:41] And don't get me wrong, Orange Chaka is ultra talented and there are riffs on Into Another that are so heavy and I can appreciate the musicianship of both, but it didn't click for me back then, so it's going to be hard for me to pull it back in 10, 20 years later.

Speaker 4:
[80:00] I mean, that totally makes sense.

Speaker 5:
[80:01] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[80:02] I mean, I think, yeah, coming from Byrne, though, I could see why. Like, Quicksand is the only band that came from their predecessors. You're like, you know, this is still like that rev record, the rev 7 inch. It's fucking heavy.

Speaker 5:
[80:12] And he can do no wrong. Like, the guy can. Here's another thing. I like, he, I don't want to say he can do wrong, but I'm not a World's Fastest Car guy.

Speaker 4:
[80:20] Whoa! Really?

Speaker 5:
[80:22] But I am a Moon Dog guy. I am a Moon Dog guy.

Speaker 3:
[80:24] Moon Dog's perfect. I think World's Fastest Car... Well, so Moon Dog's different. Moon Dog doesn't feel like primitive Quicksand, right? There's a real difference there. Moon Dog's got its own thing, but World's Fastest Car feels more like the awkward bridge between what he was doing with Quicksand and then into Rival Schools, and it wasn't quite there yet. It's like almost a little more indie, a little less... It doesn't have quite as much melody and pop sensibility as Rival Schools pulls in, so I could see it. It's really moody. I fuck with World's Fastest Car, but I can see why people, even Walter Heads, wouldn't say it's their favorite.

Speaker 4:
[81:05] Will the Moon Dog record ever be officially released?

Speaker 3:
[81:08] I don't think so, because I don't think Walter cares. I think he's like, oh, that's not even real. When he's been asked about it, he's like, yeah, I mean, it's cool that people like it. I don't even know if I consider those complete songs. Right.

Speaker 4:
[81:19] And that was him, Sergio, maybe Armand played drums on that?

Speaker 3:
[81:24] Is that true? Sounds right.

Speaker 5:
[81:26] I don't even know.

Speaker 3:
[81:27] I know Sergio was in it.

Speaker 4:
[81:29] I remember I was asking when we had Walter on, and we also talked about World's Fastest Car, and he was like, yeah, we broke the band, though, it was just like we played in Philadelphia, and it went so badly that we were just like, and that was it, and then Quicksand was back and whatever. All right, I have two more and then my rap run. So we'll do an older one and I mean, it's not newer, but it's newer to us because we're both over 50. First, judge your youth of today.

Speaker 5:
[81:58] Dang, that's tough.

Speaker 3:
[82:03] And do you think your answer has changed over time?

Speaker 5:
[82:06] Yes, I know it has.

Speaker 2:
[82:09] I think I know which way you're going to go then.

Speaker 5:
[82:12] I think I'm going to just say judge because Mike's lyrics are so good. That's it. I mean, you cannot take anything away from youth of today. Unbelievable. They changed the whole scene. They changed everything. But Mike's lyrics are so personal and good. Like Capo's lyrics are really good in a different way. So simple and catchy and you just hear it once, you know exactly what it's about. But Mike, there's something about Mike's writing to me. So I'm just going to give it to him. Pat, I could say youth of today tomorrow. Like they're that close.

Speaker 4:
[82:57] Yeah, I feel like Judge sort of laid the groundwork for a lot of what came after, like lyrically and stuff that like, today I don't have to, I mean, it's a good call. And then my last one that's more recent. And then I wrote this and then I was like, Jordan's the best and I love the dude. No warning to you why.

Speaker 5:
[83:18] Oh, wow.

Speaker 4:
[83:21] Because both bands when they came out were like shifts in hardcore. Like it was just like a fucking, like I feel like people don't like, you know, that are not old enough. Like when Ill Blood really kind of happened, it was like such a thing that I think like, there's only so many bands in the last 30 years that have had that kind of like changed hardcore when it came out.

Speaker 5:
[83:45] I'm in deep thought. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1:
[83:46] This is the whole.

Speaker 4:
[83:48] That's the whole. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[83:49] I love comparing the scriptures, man.

Speaker 5:
[83:52] I'm going to have to say, let me, it's going to be a, it's going to be, don't, don't jump to the conclusion. I like ill-blood shit. I was going to say, I like ill-blood better than anything trapped under ice ever did. But the trapped under ice discography coupled with their live show and what a front man justice is. And I was about to say it, and then I remembered the first No Warning 7 Inch.

Speaker 4:
[84:32] Also amazing.

Speaker 5:
[84:35] I'm just going to say that. I'm going to go with Trapped Under Ice because of the whole thing. But ill-blood is so good. And if I kept talking this through, it might swing back to No Warning. They're an unbelievable band. And Ben Cook, what a little, he's just a little like, ooh, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[84:57] So great.

Speaker 2:
[84:58] I like that.

Speaker 4:
[84:58] I mean, especially then. I was going to say, I felt like he was like 18. I don't know if he was, but he seemed like it.

Speaker 3:
[85:05] Ill-Blood comes out in 2001. I think he was 19. We're like the same age.

Speaker 4:
[85:10] 2002. Oh shit. Okay. I think we always talk about the sort of like, when you compare bands, it's like, well, this band has like the number one, but then two, three and four is the other band. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5:
[85:22] That's tough.

Speaker 4:
[85:23] Maybe Brightside might be the number one, but then Leeway's got two, three, four, or whatever. It's sort of like, but TUI has several classic records.

Speaker 5:
[85:33] Let's just take a five second moment of silence and think, how fucking cool is hardcore? All this stuff we're mentioning, whether it's fucking some vegan band in Syracuse or fucking 18 Visions, it's just very cool.

Speaker 4:
[85:49] Hardcore is the fucking coolest, it really is, we do this every fucking week for, how long is this now? Seven years?

Speaker 3:
[85:56] Long time.

Speaker 4:
[85:57] Eight years, something like that? And it never gets old, and it's so much fucking fun to talk about hardcore with your friends. And this is the whole point of the whole goddamn thing.

Speaker 5:
[86:05] I don't want to bring up a bad thing about Axe To Grind, but I feel like it was like three weeks ago, I hit up Tom, I'm like, you're ruining my Tuesday, there's no new episode, what's going on?

Speaker 4:
[86:16] That was past fault.

Speaker 3:
[86:17] We're so regular, anytime there's a deviation from it, it's tough, because you gotta keep it steady. People need something to listen to on those Tuesday mornings.

Speaker 5:
[86:27] I wake up every day and go for a long walk, and I know on Tuesdays, it's going right to you guys.

Speaker 4:
[86:33] I love it. And I was telling her, I was like, you were the one that told me, like, yo, there's no episode. And I was like, oh shit. And it was like noon, and I had to get in touch with Patrick, like, yo, the episode never went up, and he's like, oh, god, all right. So we're gonna do my speed run, my hip hop speed run, and then I wanna talk about some newer bands you fuck with. All right, this or that, you can go as far into it as you want, or just kind of just pick it out. Mobb Deep, CNN.

Speaker 5:
[87:00] Oh my god, that's it. That's like, Queensbridge is my favorite. It's the same thing as we just said. I'm gonna have to say Mobb Deep, but War Report's better than all that. Is War Report better than Infamous? I think it is. I don't know about better, but I like it more. Yeah, I like it more. Love it.

Speaker 4:
[87:22] All right, Lyra says, Guru or Rakim?

Speaker 5:
[87:29] For me, it's Guru. I've stolen more lines from Guru.

Speaker 4:
[87:32] That's what I brought up.

Speaker 5:
[87:33] Rakim is a better MC, but lyrically, I connect more to Guru.

Speaker 4:
[87:41] All right. And then producer, Premier or Pete Rock?

Speaker 5:
[87:45] Premier, for sure. He's my favorite. He's my favorite. He called me once. And he actually texted. No, here's the story. So I have learned that Premier loves porno because over a few things. And that Jules Jordan.

Speaker 3:
[88:04] Yeah, shout out.

Speaker 5:
[88:07] He is definitely a hardcore band, a kid and sang for a band called Vigil, which is basically like conviction.

Speaker 3:
[88:15] I was like an Allentown PA kind of kid, straight edge guy for a long time.

Speaker 5:
[88:19] Yep. So and he lived in LA and would come to shows and stuff. And he found whatever he's friends with Premier from porn conventions. And I, we, Tara was making like this mixtape of it was basically like a I don't know. I don't even know how to say this. A great, I can't even say it. A greatest hits of all Tara's songs at the time. And we got all these hip hop guys to do like little drops. And then we gave, we got our merch company to pay for it and we gave these CDs out. And he was going to get Premier to do it. And we were playing in LA that day. So my phone rang and it was like a weird phone number. And I just sent it to Vo, I thought it was someone like hitting me up for the guest list. And I wrote, who is this? And he was like, oh, I'm sorry, it's DJ Premier. I don't mean to bother you. And I was like, oh!

Speaker 4:
[89:20] That's fucking insane.

Speaker 5:
[89:21] And this was like 15 years ago. I still, I'm sure it's not his phone number, but I saved his number and I can show people like, look it, I have DJ Premier's phone number. Never talked to him on the phone, but I got his number.

Speaker 4:
[89:34] And that's all that matters. That's all that counts. And was that the same idea? Like I know Alexa sent over the new Terror record and you have like that whole track of like voicemails and like with JP to doing like a background beat and stuff. Was that sort of like the same idea, like a mixtape kind of idea?

Speaker 5:
[89:50] Yeah, there's a there's a Gangstar track called RI like R.Rite, but I Chill. And it's basically the same thing. It's a beat and then just people leaving premiere. It's more like, yeah, meet me at the studio and we'll check this out, blah, blah, blah. But it's just a direct. And it was more of a way just to like not, you know, everyone connects now on Instagram and more like that. It was just just a way to make some sort of audio connection of stuff, have extra friends on the record and just kind of stuff like that. And honestly, listen to that sometimes can make me almost tear up some of the stuff people say and stuff like that.

Speaker 4:
[90:30] It's super cool. It's super fucking awesome. And then, yeah, Frank Thurigan was like, I'm just going to go up to Buffalo. I know, like, you know, we don't have to do anything like I just want to come and hang out. That's pretty amazing.

Speaker 5:
[90:43] Fun fact about that. I one time Bared Alive was playing in Albany and Scarhead and Scarhead and Ringworm needed a place to stay because they were on tour. They stayed at my apartment, but I had my good friend Janelle. She's actually on the phone call, too. She's on that track, too. I had her go in like, watch my house because Scarhead staying at my house without me there. And her and Frank like fall in love and he dated her for like three years. So he used to come to Buffalo all the time. So that's kind of why he's saying that.

Speaker 4:
[91:19] That's really, really funny. And I mean, Cleveau to Buffalo is not that bad, right?

Speaker 5:
[91:23] Ah, it's three hours or something.

Speaker 4:
[91:25] It's around the lake, right?

Speaker 2:
[91:27] If you're in love, that's not bad.

Speaker 4:
[91:29] Yeah, right.

Speaker 2:
[91:30] Scott, can I ask you a question that I couldn't ask a young man? Without hatin, right? We've established that you're capable of it, but I'm not asking you to. I'm not asking you to. So be delicate in whatever respect. Okay. Is there anything that's come back around that you've been shocked to see? Anything that you thought probably was in the dustbin of hardcore history? No judgment in that, just meaning that the world had turned. And now you see that young people are pulling from it, and you go, oh, didn't see it coming.

Speaker 5:
[92:12] Okay. Huh. Something that's caught back on that I didn't expect.

Speaker 2:
[92:23] Because we've all sat through eras that maybe didn't appeal to us, or maybe they did, who knows, maybe they did. But we never thought we'd see them again. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of shocking how deep young people will dive in influences for their band.

Speaker 5:
[92:46] This isn't the answer, but what I'm waiting for, what I'm patiently waiting for, is for bands like Turning Point, even a little bit of Lifetime, Dag Nasty. People that can actually sing and write some really good lyrics, and I know, Pat, like the whole world you're in, but even a carry on, more of an actual melodic hardcore with fast parts. I'm waiting for that to please come back around, because that's one of my favorite things. And it just, what am I missing? Who has done that in the last 10 years that I'm missing? It might be there.

Speaker 3:
[93:36] Maybe one step closer? No, and they only really just one record, that the first 12 inch, The Reach, and then it kind of, sonically, they pivoted it a little differently. But no, that's a sound that's been really hard. And I sometimes wonder if kids don't even know how to wrap their heads around it, both, like, what does this music do? And then also, what do you do to this music in a live setting? Because you don't, it's not necessarily mosh. 100% sing-along, if the band has the right energy, absolutely stage dives. But I think it falls into this weird middle ground, because that's some of my favorite stuff too. But it has to be done, like, to me, if you don't do that at a S tier level, it falls flat.

Speaker 4:
[94:22] But do you think that stuff has kind of gotten picked up and pulled up into, like, the saves the days of the world, that people just go to saves a day rather than going to, like, other adjacent stuff. People go to, like, Full Out Boy, but it's like, yeah, those dudes all listen to Lifetime.

Speaker 5:
[94:37] Like a Coyote leans way more into that world. But if they maybe dumb down the singing a little bit and got rid of some of the melody, they would be in that ballpark.

Speaker 3:
[94:51] Pushing a shove in there where you're talking about, 100%.

Speaker 5:
[94:55] I'm not a huge DC guy. Like, Fugazi came to Buffalo and walked off stage because people were stage diving when I was like, whatever, 15 or 16. That'll do it.

Speaker 2:
[95:09] That'll leave a bad taste in your mouth.

Speaker 5:
[95:11] And Embrace and Rites of Spring are, again, I respect them, but they have never grabbed me like other, they have grabbed other people. But can I say is like any type of music, that's a top 10 record for me. It's like perfect. It's the lyrics are so good. It's just such a great ride. Like that's my DC record and it's one of my favorite records. But a lot of that DC stuff just doesn't get me.

Speaker 3:
[95:49] We'll do a Diagnasty episode with you. There's so much to talk about. There's so much. It's just a really interesting band.

Speaker 5:
[95:56] I'm a Field Day guy too. It's a great record.

Speaker 3:
[95:58] Great record.

Speaker 5:
[95:59] So we dig out. Wake Out is such a great record.

Speaker 3:
[96:04] Such a great record. And it's just they're interesting. And it took me forever. And it was years and years into being a Dag Nasty super fan, where I felt like they felt different than some of the other DC bands. But it's like, but this is Brian Baker from Minor Threat. And so they were doing this, and Ian's doing Embrace, and then Fugazi, and the Red Spring guys, then they do Fugazi. But why does Dag Nasty, why isn't? And then it comes to me later in reading interviews and books and getting people telling stories, where it's like, yeah, they were apart from some of the other stuff. And that is, they're fascinating. All right.

Speaker 4:
[96:42] I even like the return record. Four on the floor is good for Dag Nasty. No.

Speaker 3:
[96:49] It is good. Yeah, there's some songs.

Speaker 4:
[96:51] And it's a Rev one too, right?

Speaker 3:
[96:52] Isn't it? There's a Rev record way later that Larry actually worked a lot on, actually.

Speaker 4:
[96:56] Is that audience of one or something?

Speaker 3:
[96:58] Minority of one.

Speaker 4:
[96:59] Minority.

Speaker 3:
[97:00] Four on the floor feels like to me and Tom, I don't know if you've ever dug into Down By Law, but the first two Down By Law records, and then four on the floor have a lot of comparisons to me. Four on the floor is maybe a little more hardcore, but there's just, there's a lot of poppiness there. There's some good stuff on both of those.

Speaker 4:
[97:15] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[97:17] I often wonder if that, because I hear so many people of like my age or a little bit younger than me reference Fugazi as like a life-changing band. And obviously like their ethics and stuff is very interesting and it's very unique and I can respect so much of it. I often wonder in the way I do love melodic stuff, if they didn't come to Buffalo and do that, I wonder if they'd be one of my favorite bands.

Speaker 3:
[97:48] It's an interesting question. That's such a, it's such a, that tone to set on a stage when you're young and all you want is to stage dive and be- it connected the music like that and they're saying, no.

Speaker 5:
[98:02] And all I knew was another state of mind, the Minor Threat videos have so much stage diving. And we're talking fugazi dives. No one's like kicking people in the face.

Speaker 3:
[98:15] No steel toes to the chest.

Speaker 5:
[98:16] I was just like, they stopped and said if one more person's stage dives were leaving and someone did and they left, and I was like, really?

Speaker 2:
[98:24] Like what?

Speaker 5:
[98:26] But it is what it is.

Speaker 2:
[98:29] I mean, the other day, our merch guy says to us, Drug Church is coming on stage to walkout music. And he says, really? And I said, what do you mean? He goes, if I was a kid, I'd fucking hate you.

Speaker 3:
[98:43] Were you playing like put me in coach? Like, what do we got? I said, I said, walkout music.

Speaker 2:
[98:48] He goes, just fucking rock and roll shit. I would hate this if I were a kid. And I was like, damn, you were a judgmental kid.

Speaker 4:
[98:54] What did you walk out to? Bob has a good question. What was the walkout music?

Speaker 3:
[98:57] Put me in coach. I'm ready to play.

Speaker 2:
[99:01] Yeah, it was some like some stompy alt thing from like the 90s that those guys like that it worked well enough. But but my whole thing, I mean, I relate because I always play hardcore between hardcore bands at the hardcore show.

Speaker 3:
[99:13] Energy right there. Yeah. Don't play stompy alt before Drug Church plays. New rule. I listen.

Speaker 5:
[99:20] Can I can I hijack the podcast for a second?

Speaker 3:
[99:23] Go always.

Speaker 2:
[99:24] Of course.

Speaker 5:
[99:25] Pat, I have a question for you because I don't I don't know you all that well. Do you care about MF Doom?

Speaker 2:
[99:34] No, no, I, are you going to say, are you going to say this because lyrically he wanders in a way that I wander?

Speaker 5:
[99:42] No, because I'm going to implore you is that is encourage you. Yeah, I'm going to encourage you to look into MF Doom's life. He the I'm not. I'm becoming more of a fan now than I ever was, and his story of his life is so insane, it's there needs to be a real documentary. But the reason I ask you is because he was super into to comic books. So I thought you might have a connection with him there. That's why I asked you. And I don't know anything about comic books, and I don't know many people who do, but I've heard you talk about it. So I was like, I wonder if you have a thing for MF Doom. So that was the connection.

Speaker 2:
[100:30] Correct me if I'm wrong. The only MF Doom factoid that I think I know is he was in a group with his brother and then his brother died. Did I make that up?

Speaker 4:
[100:40] Your brother got hit by a car.

Speaker 5:
[100:41] That's correct.

Speaker 4:
[100:42] And he was also like, he was on Gasface by Third Base. I don't know how far back you go.

Speaker 5:
[100:47] That's true.

Speaker 4:
[100:48] He was Zev Love X. He wasn't, before he was MF Doom.

Speaker 5:
[100:53] The whole story is really intriguing and crazy. Like he got shelved. That band with his brother got shelved because of their cover art. Then he disappeared and reemerged with the mask and became this phenomenon. And then he got deported because he wasn't born in the US. And he was just like off the grid in the UK. And the way he died, there's just like so many crazy things to his story.

Speaker 2:
[101:24] All right. I mean, listen, I'm not, I'm not above it. I'll check it out.

Speaker 5:
[101:28] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[101:28] All right. I think we, I think we've got some time limitations here that we're coming up again. So guys, I think we need to get Scott back on here. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[101:40] I'm, I'm, I'm free for hardcore talk whenever you guys need me.

Speaker 4:
[101:44] That's why man, to band. What name? What's a newer band that you're stoked on?

Speaker 5:
[101:48] Bum Bust. That's a content motherfucker. Like sometimes I'm like, oh, I just do not. I love him, but oh, he's got a mouth on him. And that if, if anyone can hate, he can hate. But his band, like I love him and his band is, they just do it right. And he's a great front man. He's a great front man.

Speaker 4:
[102:11] Yeah. This is his best. Yeah. I think the records have been great. We're all fans of his band and fans. I'm a big fan of that guy personally. I've seen his face at shows, like at shows that he's not playing. The hate is so apparent. Like you can see him like side-eyeing bands. They're like, this band is getting this reaction. The fuck is this? I watched it like two weeks ago. I won't say the band because it's whatever. But like I watch him be like, I give it like the fucking.

Speaker 3:
[102:38] Stink face.

Speaker 4:
[102:39] Oh, like he had like a bad batch of like orange juice or something. But Combust, can't go wrong with Combust. They're out there now.

Speaker 5:
[102:47] I think Scarab's really good. That's a really good record.

Speaker 2:
[102:52] There's your mosh element right there. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[102:55] See, like to me, that's like nails, but for like a less metal person like me.

Speaker 4:
[103:00] More hardcore nails.

Speaker 5:
[103:01] Yeah. It's really good. I think there's all sorts of good shit going on. Like Division of Mind, that's some serious mosh. Yeah. I think there's cool shit everywhere. We're about to tour with Start Today. I'm really intrigued by them to see. I've seen them live once, but they seem like really good kids. I want to see what they can do. Like our tour is so long. I want to see. I want to see it.

Speaker 3:
[103:32] I want to see how far they can go.

Speaker 5:
[103:34] Yeah. And maybe they'll really grow or stuff, or maybe they'll break up. Who fucking knows?

Speaker 4:
[103:39] You should like take a picture with them the first day and then see how grizzled they are at the end.

Speaker 3:
[103:43] Oh yeah.

Speaker 4:
[103:44] That's the photo. Because this is their first US tour. So that tour is Start Today, End It, Pain of Truth, Terror.

Speaker 5:
[103:51] Yep.

Speaker 4:
[103:51] Starts in end of April?

Speaker 5:
[103:54] Starts in Denver on April 22, and it's long. It's like six weeks. So.

Speaker 4:
[104:00] Coming to New York, they're playing with Poison the Well in Vegas. I saw like a side gig.

Speaker 3:
[104:07] But all right, yo, everybody, go see Terror on this tour. Get the new record. Scott's going to be back. Talk hardcore. Thank you so much. Shout out Buffalo.

Speaker 5:
[104:17] Thank you guys. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4:
[104:19] Thank you.

Speaker 5:
[104:24] Do I log off?

Speaker 3:
[104:25] Do I stop recording? Just go up to the recording piece, Tom, and hit stop recording.

Speaker 4:
[104:31] Why is this not working? Recording settings. Why?

Speaker 2:
[104:34] I'm going to keep this in as it sounds like we're just old men with dementia.

Speaker 5:
[104:40] I might be.