transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] If you or your partner has fallen for a scam, I wanna help, especially if you've recently fallen for an email or text scam, or you've gotten bad financial advice from someone who did not keep their promises, or maybe you just have not even told your partner because you are embarrassed. If this is you, I wanna talk. Apply for free coaching with me by being on my podcast. Apply today at iwt.com/apply. That's iwt.com/apply.

Speaker 2:
[00:29] I think we both wanna like really make some money. Like I will teach you to be rich. Like we wanna be rich. We wanna buy our first house.

Speaker 3:
[00:36] I'd like to retire early. I know that sounds crazy once we look at our numbers.

Speaker 1:
[00:40] Zero dollars in savings. And you have a daughter.

Speaker 2:
[00:43] We just spend money and then figure it out afterwards.

Speaker 1:
[00:45] Do you ever actually go and look into your spending and find out what happened?

Speaker 3:
[00:50] Not very often.

Speaker 2:
[00:51] We should make enough money to not be in our position that we're in, and that's why it's just a confusing web. I don't even know how to unravel it.

Speaker 1:
[00:59] You spend over $4,000 a year on subscriptions alone.

Speaker 3:
[01:03] Right.

Speaker 2:
[01:04] I just knew it was bad, but I did not know it was that much.

Speaker 1:
[01:08] You feel very disconnected on money.

Speaker 2:
[01:11] We've been together for three years, and it seems like we just never get ahead. We're always living paycheck to paycheck.

Speaker 3:
[01:17] I feel resentful on the fact that I feel like I'm working really hard all the time so that we have money.

Speaker 2:
[01:23] I sometimes look around and I'm like, this is what I wanted. I got what I wanted and I'm still unhappy.

Speaker 1:
[01:30] How many times have you talked to someone who has big dreams? They want to retire at 45, they want to buy a 20-acre property, they want to travel all the time. But when you look at what they are actually doing to make that dream a reality, they haven't taken any concrete steps. We know people like this. They talk about all the things they want to do, but often they don't have any idea where last month's paycheck went. It's like people who talk about all these advanced weightlifting techniques, but they're not even consistent about getting to the gym three times a week. Today's guests, Molly and Jason, are 45 and 46 with a two-year-old daughter. And they have big dreams. They want to buy a house, they want to invest in multi-family properties, and they want to retire early. But when you hear what they are actually doing with their money, you're going to realize it doesn't add up. I'm looking at their conscious spending plan. This shows me a very simple overview of all their numbers. And if you want help with your own conscious spending plan, you can join my money coaching program at iwt.com/moneycoaching. Here are their numbers. Household income, $142,000 a year. Savings, zero. Debt, $46,000. Net worth, $4,000. Let me put it in another way. They make nearly $143,000 a year, and they have zero dollars in savings. They live together. They have a child together. But they keep completely separate finances. In fact, she asks for money. He decides and sends it to her. She manages everything alone while overdrafting to cover bills. And neither of them can explain where his paycheck actually goes each month. They're stuck in the same cycle month after month, wondering why nothing ever changes. Now I have a quick favor to ask. Molly and Jason were brave enough to come on Money For Couples and share their story with us. As you listen and you watch, I'm going to ask that you keep your comments respectful and constructive. That is the type of community I want for my show. Let's get started now with Molly and Jason. Molly, you wrote to us in your application, quote, We live paycheck to paycheck, have virtually no savings, and I'm trying very hard to get us out of this hole. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2:
[03:47] Spent a lot of time researching what we can do to, what we need to do because after having a child in our 40s and looking around, reading the room, I was like, we're not doing well. The price of daycare went up in the fall, and two out of the three months that we, since it's gone up, it over draws my account.

Speaker 1:
[04:10] Why?

Speaker 3:
[04:10] Money is still very tight, but we always pay it every month. We've always been able to pay it.

Speaker 2:
[04:15] But then it's a little scary every month. It comes out on the first, so it's like, there's just never enough. And so the excess comes from my credit card.

Speaker 1:
[04:25] I got you. A couple of questions about just account structure. Do you two have combined finances or not?

Speaker 3:
[04:31] No, they're not combined. I send her money multiple times a month.

Speaker 1:
[04:36] What does that look on Molly's face? Molly?

Speaker 2:
[04:39] It is combined. We spend everything together. We're a unit that spends money, but the fact that most of the bills come out of my account, but the money goes into his account and then he sends me money.

Speaker 1:
[04:53] Hold on. What in the hell? Try that again with me.

Speaker 3:
[04:57] Most of the utilities and other expenses like medical are all in Molly's name. They go through her account. I just send her money for most of it and I paid the rent myself.

Speaker 1:
[05:11] Questions. How do you send the money?

Speaker 3:
[05:14] Venmo.

Speaker 1:
[05:15] Okay. You two are married, correct?

Speaker 2:
[05:18] No.

Speaker 3:
[05:18] No, we're not married.

Speaker 1:
[05:19] Not married. You live together? Yes. Kids? How many kids?

Speaker 2:
[05:23] One. She's two.

Speaker 1:
[05:25] Okay. When did money become a source of tension for the two of you?

Speaker 2:
[05:30] When I stopped working and had a baby.

Speaker 1:
[05:33] Was that when your daughter was born or was it while you were pregnant?

Speaker 2:
[05:37] I basically worked up until she was born. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[05:41] Because of financial reasons or were you just enjoying work or were there other reasons?

Speaker 2:
[05:46] I enjoyed work. It was physically active, which I like, but also I was trying to build up an egg, a little nest egg because we didn't really have a plan.

Speaker 1:
[05:58] I see. Did you two talk about the financial part of having a baby?

Speaker 2:
[06:03] No.

Speaker 1:
[06:04] No, you didn't.

Speaker 3:
[06:04] I don't think we really did.

Speaker 1:
[06:06] Molly, why did you laugh when I asked that question?

Speaker 2:
[06:08] Because you think that would be like an important conversation we have with you. You have nine months to have it, but we definitely did not.

Speaker 1:
[06:15] Okay. How did you come up with the system that you have developed where you have separate accounts, he transfers money to her? How'd that come about?

Speaker 2:
[06:26] I'm the responsible one in the couple that does the, let's open the energy account, let's open the water bill, let's do all like, and I'm home, so it makes sense for me to do that to the admin, if you will.

Speaker 1:
[06:40] Got it. What's the thing about her daycare that comes out of your account? Explain that one to me.

Speaker 2:
[06:47] Again, this is all the things that I have set up. I found the daycare, for instance, I am the one who's communicated with them. They signed us up. I am the one who goes out and, you know, I got our health insurance signed up for that. I get all of her stuff. I pretty much take care of those things in our household. That's all me.

Speaker 1:
[07:11] How would you describe each of your roles with money?

Speaker 2:
[07:16] My role with the household money is trying to make it all work. It's like almost flying by the seat of my pants.

Speaker 3:
[07:24] I guess my role isn't that large at this point. I go to work, I work full time, and basically send as much money as I can above rent.

Speaker 1:
[07:33] Are you the primary earner?

Speaker 3:
[07:35] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[07:36] Okay. That's your role then, right? I mean, if we're going to simplify it.

Speaker 3:
[07:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:40] So you're the primary earner, but it sounds like you do not track much of the money or organize or manage most of the money. Would that be fair to say?

Speaker 3:
[07:50] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[07:51] All right. So you make the bulk of the household income and then do you send all of it to Molly or some of it?

Speaker 3:
[07:59] Definitely don't send all of it. I send what I think is as much as I can afford to send.

Speaker 1:
[08:04] Does it come up when, Molly, you need Jason to transfer money over and he says, I don't know if I have that much?

Speaker 2:
[08:11] Couple times a month, at least, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[08:13] And then we'll negotiate and maybe change the amount.

Speaker 1:
[08:18] How do you decide that?

Speaker 3:
[08:19] Usually based on how much is in my bank account.

Speaker 1:
[08:22] You're checking, right?

Speaker 3:
[08:23] Yes. Hold on.

Speaker 1:
[08:24] Explain. So you get paid what, like every two weeks or four weeks?

Speaker 3:
[08:28] I get paid every week.

Speaker 1:
[08:30] Every week? All right. So what do you do? Like on Friday, do you log in your checking account? And then how does it work?

Speaker 3:
[08:37] Sure. Yeah. I log into my checking account. I look at how much money I have. Yes, that's true when I get paid. And at that point, it's always time to send money. There's always a need for money.

Speaker 2:
[08:46] Often, he doesn't just send me money. I have to ask, hey, I need more money. We have all these bills coming out beginning of the month. And it's just kind of like literally counting days to being like, when can he get money that he can then send me money and it will take this much time because it's Venmo. And then I have this many days before it's absolutely late. We get a fee. I guess that's what I mean. It's like very much living in this moment of scrambling. You like it? No, and I don't like try. I've tried to do budgeting software, but it's too confusing. I just give up because I have no idea how much is coming. Money is coming in. I just end up being really like, yeah, confused. It's too hard to figure out by myself.

Speaker 1:
[09:30] And when you ask Jason for help, or do you ask him for help?

Speaker 2:
[09:34] I have, yeah. I've asked him for help, but often when we talk about money or like even just getting into details, it never, it's just not fruitful. It doesn't ever flow well. Admittedly, sometimes come in hot. Sometimes I'm already upset, right? I'm not preemptively being like, hey, we're both in a chill mood. Let's talk.

Speaker 1:
[09:56] You don't do that?

Speaker 2:
[09:57] No. We talked about trying to set that up, but it never happened.

Speaker 1:
[10:01] How often do you talk about money?

Speaker 2:
[10:04] Once a week, but it's not like a productive way of talking about money. We just spend money and then figure it out afterwards.

Speaker 3:
[10:14] That's true.

Speaker 1:
[10:15] How much visibility do each of you have into each other's spending and finances?

Speaker 2:
[10:21] I have limited into his, but more than he probably does into mine because I have accessed his account. When I was trying to figure out different budgeting software, I've gone into his account, but he's never looked at mine.

Speaker 3:
[10:35] Right.

Speaker 1:
[10:35] Do you care to, Jason?

Speaker 3:
[10:37] Honestly, I haven't cared that much. No.

Speaker 1:
[10:40] Do you ask Molly questions about money?

Speaker 3:
[10:43] As far as our day-to-day expenses and monthly, or just day-to-day life, no.

Speaker 1:
[10:49] Do you ask Molly questions at all?

Speaker 3:
[10:51] Sometimes. Not a lot of questions.

Speaker 1:
[10:55] Molly?

Speaker 2:
[10:57] I don't know why that makes me emotional. Yeah, it's a lot of me, I feel like, trying to, I guess, be curious about this.

Speaker 1:
[11:10] I suspect it's not just this.

Speaker 2:
[11:12] Yeah, I mean, I'm in charge of all the things. And he's like, trust me with that, but it's a lot to constantly figure out, like finding the pediatrician or even when she was born, like figuring out what she's going to sleep in, or where she sleeps, or what she eats, or what we do, like that's all on me, for sure. He works also a lot, and he has since day one. So I was, he was home for one week when we had our daughter. And then I was in the middle of nowhere with a newborn. And then we moved into a new state, and like some things would have been better with community, but then now he's gone even longer. He's gone like 60 hours a week. And I've just learned to like deal with it, but it's, it just feels like a lot of the responsibility of like our family is on me.

Speaker 1:
[12:09] You all familiar with this phrase, emotional labor? Have you heard of this?

Speaker 3:
[12:15] A little bit.

Speaker 1:
[12:16] When we think of work in America, a lot of times we think of like, who's going out to mow the lawn or go to work or things like that. But there's like a lot of emotional load that is often invisible. What do you notice about the emotional labor in this household? Jason?

Speaker 3:
[12:33] I think it definitely falls mostly on Molly.

Speaker 1:
[12:37] Did the two of you agree on that?

Speaker 2:
[12:38] No.

Speaker 3:
[12:39] No, I don't think we agreed on that.

Speaker 1:
[12:40] It just usually falls to mom. That's part of the reason that you're crying, Molly, is that it doesn't feel fair and it's not fair.

Speaker 3:
[12:50] I know it's a lot and I feel bad. I feel I know I can do better.

Speaker 1:
[12:54] Why haven't you?

Speaker 3:
[12:55] I have offered to, and I still would like to, and I haven't done enough with that. I'd like to take over more of the bills, take care of that as well, but I haven't done anything about that.

Speaker 1:
[13:05] Why?

Speaker 3:
[13:07] Because it's not been a focus. I haven't focused on it and I should.

Speaker 1:
[13:12] Jason says he hasn't focused on taking over the bills. But notice what just happened. Molly described their entire financial system, daycare, overdrawing her account, Venmo transfers, negotiating amounts, multiple times a month. She is tracking when bills are due. She's tracking when his paycheck hits, even how long Venmo takes to transfer. And Jason's response? I haven't focused on it. That's not very satisfying. In fact, that's not acceptable. Here's what I'm seeing that they can't see yet. Jason completely disengaged. And not just from the money, but from Molly and the family responsibilities, I think in some ways even from himself. Meanwhile, Molly has fallen into the trap that is so familiar to many of my guests, especially women on this show, of carrying the mental load, of assuming the role of someone who has to ask permission of their partner, and of being okay with a partner who doesn't actually act like a partner. And I actually hate that. I hate when people play small with their money, but especially women, because I want all of us to be able to live a rich life. That is why I spend so much time talking about the taboo topics of money and gender and social class on this show. I want you to know just because your parents didn't teach you about money, you can still get very educated and live an amazing rich life. You can redefine how traditional responsibilities and roles go in a family. Just because one person earns more doesn't mean they have more power. You can decide what your rich life is. And that is what brings me back to this couple. Not only do we see this very common and in my opinion dysfunctional dynamic, but she's not actually good at managing money either. This is a very common toxic cycle. One person, the avoider, opts out. So the other person compensates by controlling everything. But actually most of the time, neither one of them is very competent at money. You cannot live a rich life in this dynamic. You can't even manage a paycheck. So if you recognize yourself in this dynamic, whether you are the avoider or the one who is trying to carry everything on your shoulders, please understand this. An unequal partnership with money always reflects something much deeper. This is not just about money. This is about something way, way deeper. In fact, the money is simply a symptom of much deeper beliefs. And today we are going to find out what those beliefs are. If you filed a tax extension this year, I am talking directly to you. Please don't wait until October. I know it feels like it's ages away, but it's going to be here sooner than you think. And taking this time to plan for your taxes is a great opportunity. Don't wait until the last minute to get organized for your tax extension. Instead, work with Gelt to get a tax strategy in place right now. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps your business take control of your tax strategy year round. 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That's zocdoc.com/ramit, zocdoc.com/ramit. And I want to thank zocdoc for sponsoring this message. Can we go back to a recent time where you remember the last time that you were talking about money?

Speaker 2:
[18:39] It was basically in the kitchen and...

Speaker 1:
[18:45] Do it as if I'm there just watching. Go ahead.

Speaker 2:
[18:48] Okay. So after we pay rent, then what's left?

Speaker 3:
[18:52] I just paid the rent. I barely have enough money to get to the next paycheck. I'm not sure where it all went. But I felt like I was lucky to have rent this month, which is strange because we had an extra check this month.

Speaker 2:
[19:07] Yeah, this was supposed to be a bigger month. Not only do we have an extra check, but we had an extra... We got our deposit back from our last rental. So this should have been a huge month. I thought in my mind, which is crazy, that I was like, oh, we could put a certain amount of money towards some of our credit card debt. This would be the month.

Speaker 3:
[19:29] Yeah, I kind of did too. I don't know what happened. I'm not sure.

Speaker 2:
[19:33] You just have no idea?

Speaker 3:
[19:35] Not really. I mean, the money just kind of went. I don't know what happened to it.

Speaker 2:
[19:41] I mean, you can look at your account.

Speaker 3:
[19:43] Right, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[19:45] And see.

Speaker 3:
[19:45] I will look at it. I'll check it out. I'll see. I'm pretty sure it's no different than any other month, which doesn't help, but I don't know what happened to it.

Speaker 1:
[19:56] Okay. So what happened in that conversation? If you both zoom up and you almost look at the two of you as players, how would you assess what just happened in that conversation? Molly?

Speaker 2:
[20:10] What happened and what happens a lot is I just, I get really mad. I kind of give up halfway through the conversation because I already know that I'm not going to get any clarity. And he just gets mad because I feel like he thinks I'm pestering him about something that is trivial. Somewhere in him, he knows it's not trivial. But the fact like I'm questioning him and that he knows I don't trust him, he gets then defensive and mad. I go into like a fugue state almost. I'm just like, this is pointless. Yeah, like he can't do what I need him to do.

Speaker 1:
[20:53] All right, Jason, what about you? If you zoom up, how would you assess that conversation? What happened?

Speaker 3:
[20:58] I think like many of these conversations just put me in a defensive state of mind and I just kind of shut down. I'm like, well, it is what it is. The money is there, not there. I don't know what else to say about it. They got spent on something. And I think part of it is being caught off guard with something I wasn't prepared for. I'm not always, I'll admit I'm not always in the mood to talk about money. So I think because it never seems to go anywhere. That is a very typical cycle of how the conversation goes. Typical example.

Speaker 1:
[21:29] She'll bring it up, you'll be defensive and then it will dwindle off. In other words, no decisions are made. You just spin and then it comes up two, three, six weeks later again.

Speaker 3:
[21:40] Right. That happens quite often.

Speaker 1:
[21:43] Does that feel good? Seems frustrating.

Speaker 3:
[21:47] Very frustrating.

Speaker 2:
[21:49] Yeah. I feel like it's a big part of why, for whatever reason, our finances, we should make enough money to not be in our position that we're in. That's why it's just a confusing web. I don't even know how to unravel it.

Speaker 1:
[22:04] Jason, do you ever actually go and look into your spending and find out what happened?

Speaker 3:
[22:10] Not very often. Downloaded Rocket Money and added that to my account.

Speaker 1:
[22:15] And where did the money go?

Speaker 3:
[22:17] There's still a lot of spending that's on account before. So I need to dig deeper. A lot of average daily spending.

Speaker 1:
[22:24] What? Hold on. That doesn't work on me. If you downloaded Rocket Money, which is a great tool, then it shows you line by line where the money went. So where'd the money go?

Speaker 3:
[22:33] Daily spending, whether it was groceries, eating out, definitely subscriptions.

Speaker 1:
[22:39] Can we just look at Rocket Money? Do you have it?

Speaker 3:
[22:42] I have it on my phone. I suppose I could pull it up.

Speaker 2:
[22:46] He has what you didn't mention. He says a lot of it goes to subscriptions, but he has like double subscriptions.

Speaker 1:
[22:50] All right. What do you got, Jason?

Speaker 3:
[22:51] I do.

Speaker 2:
[22:52] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[22:53] I do have some doubles. So for subscriptions, I have, let's see, one, two, three, four, about 12, no, 14 subscriptions.

Speaker 1:
[23:04] How much is the total?

Speaker 3:
[23:06] 43.68 per year for 18 subscriptions.

Speaker 2:
[23:10] 4,000?

Speaker 3:
[23:12] 4,368 per year for 18 subscriptions.

Speaker 2:
[23:18] I just knew it was bad, but I did not know it that much. Not even close. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[23:25] And Jason, did you know?

Speaker 3:
[23:26] No, no, I did not.

Speaker 1:
[23:28] So far we know that you spend over $4,000 a year on subscriptions alone.

Speaker 3:
[23:33] Right.

Speaker 1:
[23:33] What does that tell you?

Speaker 3:
[23:35] Seems like I could cut that amount by a good bit, I would hope.

Speaker 1:
[23:39] How would you describe your familiarity with your own spending, Jason?

Speaker 3:
[23:44] Not great. I think I could be a lot more familiar with it.

Speaker 1:
[23:47] All right. And Molly, how would you describe your familiarity with your own spending?

Speaker 2:
[23:52] I mean, I guess I know pretty much what I'm spending. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[23:57] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[23:57] So good. The ground about concise answer for you.

Speaker 1:
[24:01] You wrote something that caught my eye. Quote, I don't fully trust him about how and where he's spending money because he hasn't been super forthcoming in the past about investing in the stock market. Can you tell me more about that?

Speaker 2:
[24:19] I knew he was using Robinhood and doing day trading or options, and things that I'm not super familiar with, to be honest. I didn't know how much money he was funneling into that because that's just not how our accounts work.

Speaker 1:
[24:35] How much money are we talking about?

Speaker 2:
[24:37] I don't know.

Speaker 3:
[24:37] It was 100 times 200 a week.

Speaker 1:
[24:42] 200 a week, so 800 a month.

Speaker 3:
[24:44] Yes, that's right. I just want to make sure.

Speaker 2:
[24:47] And I didn't know that.

Speaker 1:
[24:49] Jason, what was going on with these investments?

Speaker 3:
[24:52] So, what Molly is referring to with the automated withdrawals, that was just a long-term investment account. I wasn't actually doing any of my own option trading or anything like that.

Speaker 1:
[25:06] What was the options trading about?

Speaker 3:
[25:08] So, the options trading was on a different platform and I had a friend that was actually very successful last year. So, I started getting some tips from him and I put a little money here and there. I started with probably $500 and I think I only ended up adding another $1,000 on top of that. Either way, not as successful as him, still had a lot to learn. So, kind of up and down.

Speaker 1:
[25:34] Did you loop Molly into what you were doing?

Speaker 3:
[25:37] As far as the options, I didn't explain it a whole lot. As far as the money I put in there, I probably wasn't that specific.

Speaker 1:
[25:45] Why?

Speaker 3:
[25:46] Not that much. I guess I probably thought I was going to do better than I did. So, I expected to have better news.

Speaker 1:
[25:56] Can I ask you guys a question? Like, in just speaking to you just for a little bit so far, you feel very disconnected on money. Extremely disconnected.

Speaker 2:
[26:06] From each other or from money?

Speaker 1:
[26:09] Both.

Speaker 2:
[26:10] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[26:10] We were having a conversation about this a little bit the other day, and we're talking about how we went from being two single people in our 40s, three years ago, to basically married with children. Both of us have traveled a lot when we were younger and just kind of lived a single life, and I feel like I'm still spending money that way, and I haven't been able to switch gears in the way that I should. Basically living as if we're single, and I think that's part of the problem.

Speaker 2:
[26:42] Yeah, I feel like in some ways, the way I think about our finances together is like, it just feels like a disaster, and I just like, every time I put a lot of energy into figuring it out or unraveling it, it just seems like it goes nowhere, and I just like don't, then I just kind of get, I just tune it out or something, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[27:04] That's actually very common. That's very common. All of us, me included, we like to pay attention to stuff where we feel competent, where we feel good. And so for some people that's parenting or cooking or fitness or money or even cleaning the house. But conversely, we don't like to spend time on stuff where we feel incompetent, where we feel out of control. Yeah. Honestly, if there's something in your life that you avoid because you're just like, I don't like this. And it's like, I don't like using pledge on this wood table. Who cares, right? It's not going to hurt anybody to a large extent. But relationships and money and safety for the family, those are things that are actually important. So avoiding them, it's going to get you one way or another, whether it's today or tomorrow.

Speaker 3:
[28:01] Right.

Speaker 1:
[28:02] Molly, you also wrote in your application, quote, We have similar goals, but for some reason when we talk about our present money issues, there's hurt and frustration. What are the similar goals that you both?

Speaker 2:
[28:16] We don't want to be poor.

Speaker 1:
[28:18] Are you poor?

Speaker 2:
[28:20] No, but we are probably pretty low middle class.

Speaker 3:
[28:26] I feel paycheck to paycheck is borderline.

Speaker 2:
[28:29] We're probably pretty poor. We don't want to just be a little bit over living paycheck to paycheck. I think we both want to really make some money. I will teach you to be rich. We want to be rich.

Speaker 3:
[28:42] Absolutely. I would like to be well off. I'd like to be successful. I'd like to actually retire early. I know that sounds crazy once we look at our numbers. At least to me, it seems like a long hill to climb. But yeah, I would like to figure out ways to make good money and just be a lot better off than we are now.

Speaker 2:
[29:07] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[29:07] Molly, you agree or see things differently?

Speaker 2:
[29:10] Yeah. We want to travel. We want to spend time with our daughter and we have a similar goal on how we want to get there with real estate and stuff like that. We have a shared vision on what that looks like, I guess, but not on how to get there. We have a shared vision of what would be great. I think on how we get there, there's similarities, but the literal brass tacks of the daily work it takes to get to even next year is where we, maybe next year we have a similar goal, we want to buy our first house. But how to get that is where things I think are different.

Speaker 3:
[30:00] What we would want to do first, we would be looking at multifamily units that need to be remodeled, some sort of state of disrepair that's not too far gone where it would make sense to make improvements and eventually resell or rent.

Speaker 1:
[30:16] Okay, and like, have you, where are you on this process? Have you run numbers? Have you purchased a property? Where are you on that?

Speaker 2:
[30:25] Basically, we're at the like this, I mean, the kind of research stage. I have looked into different ways of like how we would get alone like FHA 203K. I'm kind of like, that's been my fun project to research.

Speaker 1:
[30:43] Is that a goal or is that just something that one day you'd like to have? Sounds like a dream.

Speaker 2:
[30:48] I guess it hasn't moved from dream to goal yet, to be honest.

Speaker 3:
[30:53] I kind of like the way you put that, Molly, that's a good way to put it. We've talked about starting with some sort of real estate investment maybe next year, but as far as actually putting any kind of plan together, very little.

Speaker 1:
[31:08] And what does that feel like?

Speaker 3:
[31:11] It feels like we're not going anywhere. I mean, we're just still stuck in the same place.

Speaker 2:
[31:19] Yeah, I keep having this thought where it's like free beer tomorrow. It's just like always tomorrow. It's always next year. The goalpost is always moving, I guess, if there ever was one.

Speaker 1:
[31:32] This reminds me of an email I sent out to my readers years ago. It's one of the favorite responses I've ever gotten. I asked the question to my email list, what is something you claim you want to do, but you actually don't do it? And one woman wrote back saying, I claim I want to run three times a week, but I don't. So I replied to her. I talked to a lot of people on my email newsletter. And I said, why don't you just go for a run once a week? And she wrote back basically incredulous. She's like, why would I go for a run once a week? That doesn't do anything. And I thought, what a perfect example of human behavior. She would rather dream about running three times a week than actually go for a run once a week. How many of us do the exact same thing in different parts of life? We would rather dream about living this multi-millionaire life rather than actually read, I Will Teach You To Be Rich and Money For Couples and Take Control Of Our Money. That's Jason and Molly. They would rather dream about real estate investing rather than save $250 a month. They'd rather talk about retiring early than figure out where Jason's last paycheck actually went last month. I like dreams. I encourage people to dream bigger. I want them to tell me what they really want. But I always go one step further. I want a plan to reach those dreams. Without a plan, you're just fantasizing. That's not my job. This isn't the Ramit Sethi fantasy show. My job is to help you engineer a rich life. And that's what I'm doing with my own life. I'm here to engineer a rich life while I'm alive. If you want to go to Japan, tell me when. Tell me where you're going to stay. Tell me what you're going to do, how much it's going to cost, and how you are going to set that money aside. Fantasy is something that feels good to think about. But a plan makes it a reality. Children fantasize, adults plan. If you want to learn the skill of turning your dream into a reality, you don't have to do it alone. You can join my Money Coaching program. I will show you exactly how. This is one of the most valuable skills you will ever develop. Join at iwt.com/moneycoaching. And now, let's look at their numbers. All right, let's take a look at the numbers here. I'm going to throw them up on screen. Let's go with Molly first. Molly, can you read the word in bold and the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

Speaker 2:
[33:52] Sure. Assets, $28,000, investments, $23,482, savings, zero, debt, $46,640, total net worth, $4,842.

Speaker 1:
[34:07] What do you think about those numbers?

Speaker 3:
[34:09] I was mainly focused on that debt number. I don't like that number.

Speaker 1:
[34:13] You don't like it?

Speaker 3:
[34:14] Okay. Way higher than I realized and seems like a lot.

Speaker 1:
[34:17] What do you think it was?

Speaker 3:
[34:19] I thought it was closer to roughly, and this is mostly guessing because I haven't really looked at the numbers, about 18.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] I knew that you were going to say that.

Speaker 1:
[34:29] 18. So it's more than double what you thought.

Speaker 3:
[34:32] Quite a bit higher.

Speaker 2:
[34:33] I think we should mention here too, part of my problem is that I had better credit and so both of our vehicles ended up being in my name. Like in my credit cards that we have, I used that I've used for our family for big purchases or big things is all in my name. So a lot of the big debt, it's all in my name. So that's why I'm aware of that.

Speaker 3:
[35:00] You're aware of that?

Speaker 2:
[35:02] That's why I'm aware of the numbers more than he is.

Speaker 3:
[35:04] The amount of debt.

Speaker 2:
[35:05] The amount of debt we have.

Speaker 1:
[35:07] It sounds like Jason has bad credit. So Molly took on all the debt and now the debt is in her name.

Speaker 2:
[35:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:15] And by the way, all the emotional labor and having to manage it is all in Molly's name and Jason's like, cool, I get a vehicle and I don't really have to worry about it.

Speaker 3:
[35:24] I agree. I don't think it's fair.

Speaker 2:
[35:26] Yeah. It doesn't feel fair. And it's probably why I am angry.

Speaker 1:
[35:32] Tell me more about that.

Speaker 2:
[35:33] Well, I just feel like I've had to process. I feel like a lot of my resentment and anger alone because I don't want to be that person and I don't want to be that for our daughter. But I am. Yeah, I'm just kind of mad. I'm just feel like it'd be great if like one of these big things was not on me. But I also don't know if I can. It's never, he's never stepped up to like change it. I would have to be the one to get him to change. You know, like, okay, now you're gonna do this. Like it's still me guiding him through it, I guess. Maybe, maybe not.

Speaker 1:
[36:12] Maybe not. Maybe there's other ways.

Speaker 2:
[36:14] Maybe.

Speaker 1:
[36:15] But I think we can all sense your resentment. Jason, I can sense your detachment from this. It's kind of like, I'm not connected to the money. I send over money once in a while. Can't send over what she wants, so I negotiate. But like, she deals with it. And like, I should probably be better, but like, I'll do better. I'll try to do better. That's essentially the conversation so far. Would you both agree or disagree?

Speaker 3:
[36:43] No, I agree.

Speaker 2:
[36:44] Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3:
[36:45] Guess what it's been.

Speaker 1:
[36:47] You think you want a soft mattress. You think you want to jump on your bed among 58 pillows in a Ralph Lauren catalog and sink into the mattress. No, you don't. I have slept in many different beds. Oh, some of them look so beautiful. Oh, I love the fringes on the pillow. But the minute you lie down in that soft ass bed, that's why your back is hurting in the morning. And I know because I intentionally chose to buy a firm mattress from Leesa, which I sleep on every night. Leesa has a lineup of beautifully crafted, high quality mattresses, whether you sleep on your side, your back, somewhere in between, they've got a mattress that's built for you. And from the first night, you're going to feel the difference. They use premium materials in every mattress and they are designed for full body support. Every Leesa mattress is assembled in the US and it comes with free shipping, easy returns, and a sleep trial of 120 nights. Plus they have a helpful sleep quiz to figure out which mattress is the best fit for you in under two minutes. Go to leesa.com for 20% off mattresses, plus an extra $50 off with promo code Ramit, exclusive for my listeners. That's leesa.com, promo code Ramit for 20% off mattresses, plus an extra $50 off. Support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout. leesa.com, promo code Ramit. The number one financial question I get from parents is what account should I open up for my kids? And truthfully, investing for your kids is not the first thing you should be doing as a parent. Your kids have time for their money to grow. You have much less. So the first thing you want to do is make sure that your retirement plans and savings are dialed in, including making sure your family is protected in case something happens to you. One option I recommend is getting term life insurance from our friends at Fabric by Gerber Life. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance. You can get done today. It's made for busy parents like you, all online, on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes, often with no health exam required. If you've got kids, especially if you're young and healthy, now is a great time to lock in low rates. They have flexible, high quality policies to fit your family, all with a 30 day money back guarantee. So even if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not be enough to protect your family, especially if you leave your job or get let go. Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at meetfabric.com/ramit. That's meetfabric.com/ramit and use my links so they know I sent you. M-E-E-T, fabric.com/ramit. Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Jason, can you read off the combined gross monthly income, please?

Speaker 3:
[39:51] Gross monthly income combined is $11,900.

Speaker 1:
[39:57] What do you both do for a living, Jason?

Speaker 3:
[39:59] I am a project manager slash site superintendent for a residential construction company.

Speaker 2:
[40:06] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[40:07] And Molly?

Speaker 2:
[40:08] I work remotely doing HR and benefits. And then I work for my friend's deli on the weekends. And then I stay home with our daughter.

Speaker 1:
[40:18] Got it. The HR role, is that part-time?

Speaker 2:
[40:22] Yeah, it's remote part-time.

Speaker 3:
[40:24] Cool.

Speaker 2:
[40:24] All right.

Speaker 1:
[40:25] Combined on an annual basis, the two of you as a household make $142,800. What do you all think about that household income?

Speaker 3:
[40:34] I think considering where we live, it's average.

Speaker 1:
[40:39] What part of the country do you live in?

Speaker 2:
[40:41] We live in the Tahoe area.

Speaker 3:
[40:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[40:43] Oh, all right.

Speaker 2:
[40:45] But not on the expensive side.

Speaker 3:
[40:46] But not up on the mountain.

Speaker 1:
[40:49] Can I go out on a limb and just guess that you all make a lot more than the median salary in your area? Would that be fair to say?

Speaker 2:
[40:57] I bet we do.

Speaker 3:
[40:58] Maybe we do.

Speaker 1:
[40:59] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[40:59] All right.

Speaker 3:
[41:00] No, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[41:01] So you make $142,000. What do you think about that number, Molly?

Speaker 2:
[41:04] It's like a total that I had never thought I would make personally. Like I didn't think that would be attached to me. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[41:12] What's further confusing is that the two of you don't combine your money. So we have Jason making $9,500 a month gross, or roughly $120,000 a year approximately. Then we have Molly making $2,400, which is considerably different. The thing is, every month, you can see the dynamic that has been set. Molly has to go to Jason, please transfer this money. And then what is Jason's role?

Speaker 3:
[41:40] Look at my account and send what I think I can send.

Speaker 1:
[41:45] Like how do you know what you can send?

Speaker 3:
[41:47] Well based on what I think I'm going to spend the rest of the week, which is hard to say.

Speaker 1:
[41:51] I can't even get a straight answer myself. How do you think Molly feels?

Speaker 3:
[41:55] Oh, I know. I don't like it either. I wish I need to change. We need to change our setup.

Speaker 1:
[42:02] You do need to change your setup, but what is happening here is, Jason, do you believe that you have control over your own behavior?

Speaker 3:
[42:10] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[42:11] Oh. So then why do you say we need to change our setup versus I had changed my own setup last week?

Speaker 3:
[42:18] That's a good point. I feel like I could initiate way more than I do.

Speaker 1:
[42:24] But you don't. Why?

Speaker 3:
[42:25] Because I feel too tired at the end of the day. I don't take enough time. I'm sure I have a lot of excuses I could say, but bottom line is.

Speaker 1:
[42:35] I think you just don't do it because you don't have to.

Speaker 3:
[42:37] Maybe that's it.

Speaker 1:
[42:38] Molly is just going to come beseeching, oh, please, please, please. Then, so the role of the beggar, that is the role that has been established. Please, please, please transfer over money for our household. Then Jason is the decider. He crosses his arms and he says, I can do this much but not this much. That's the way it's going to be. That's the roles you've established for yourselves. The rest of the CSP, I'm going to move through quickly here. Your fixed costs are at 77%. Typically, that number should be at 50 to 60%. At 77, you can immediately understand why you feel stressed out. Bottom line, which leaves less for the rest of your money. Let's see where it's going. Investments, 3%. That explains why you have relatively low investments for your age at a total of $23,000. Savings at 1% or $125. Well, we know that's not true. I bet you set that up in the last two weeks. True or false?

Speaker 2:
[43:29] Well, that's a fun one is that that actually it's an automatic transfer. And I always end up spending it.

Speaker 1:
[43:36] The reason that you don't have any savings is that you don't save money. And you have a young daughter.

Speaker 2:
[43:44] Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[43:45] And finally, let's look at guilt-free spending. 25% or $2,200 a month. Is this number accurate?

Speaker 2:
[43:52] I actually had to adjust it because I went back over everything the last three months. And like we've had some big months for because we moved and for a lot of reasons. But it does change. But it was on average the last three months, probably at least that. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:10] You'll find that when you talk about money, you don't give each other a straight answer.

Speaker 3:
[44:13] I don't think we know as much as we should. I think that's part of the problem.

Speaker 2:
[44:18] I think we both operate in a similar way, which is not in like hard, like not in like specific details. It's a lot of feeling, a lot of feeling, a lot of guessing. Guessing.

Speaker 1:
[44:32] I think I'm going to spend this much next month. I'm not sure where the money went and on and on and on. You all know why you are able to do that, right? Like a couple that's making a third of what you make, they don't have the luxury in operating the way you are. They track it. They have to know. They can't be like, oh, I didn't realize I'm spending $4,000 a year on subscriptions. That's just not an option.

Speaker 2:
[44:57] Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:59] So your income, in part, has allowed for you to become sloppy with your financial setup. But that's not all, because you all could make double or triple and it would still be the same dynamic here. The two of you do not talk about money regularly. You certainly don't do it proactively. It's not positive. I want to understand a little bit more about how you were raised, but I'm going to guess that you did not have great financial role models for thinking ahead, planning long term. Okay, Molly's smile indicates that I was right about that. Jason?

Speaker 3:
[45:30] Definitely not.

Speaker 1:
[45:31] There's no worry about failure. I don't think that basically, to put it bluntly, I don't think you felt the pain of actual failure, like running out of money and not being able to feed your family.

Speaker 3:
[45:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[45:44] I don't think that's happened.

Speaker 3:
[45:45] No. No, you're right.

Speaker 1:
[45:47] I would like to just pause for a second. What are you noticing already in this conversation?

Speaker 3:
[45:52] We're not aligned in our fanances in the way that we should, and that we need to spend a lot more time working on them together. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[45:59] Molly?

Speaker 2:
[46:00] I don't know. I, in some ways, feel like more hopeless right now than I did at the beginning.

Speaker 1:
[46:06] Tell me more.

Speaker 2:
[46:07] I just, I guess I feel like, yeah, like we're just so not aligned. And neither of us, we're both bad at the same things.

Speaker 1:
[46:20] Which is?

Speaker 2:
[46:21] Which is being, I think, responsible when it comes to our finances. Being responsible when it comes to having boundaries and making sacrifices. And like just, we could have gotten ourselves out of this situation much sooner, but neither of us did. And almost combined, we're like even worse.

Speaker 1:
[46:43] When Molly said she felt hopeless looking at their numbers, notice what I did not do. I did not try to make her feel better. The truth is that they've dug themselves into a really serious financial situation. And I don't think that either of them have truly suffered as a result of that. Let's take a look at the facts. Jason thought their debt was $18,000. It's $34,000. He was off by basically half. All of that debt sits in Molly's name because he has poor credit. He's spending $4,000 a year on subscriptions he didn't know about. And he was secretly day trading, hoping to surprise her with gains that never came. This is not acceptable. They don't need someone to tell them it's going to be okay. They actually need the gift of consequences. Remember, in life, suffering is not always something to be avoided. Any Asian or Indian person here is like, yeah, what are you talking about? Life is suffering. That's why I suffered studying so hard in high school. I was telling my nephews the other day, I took them on a college tour at Stanford, and they are in the midst of SAT prep, and we were talking about it. How's it going? And I asked them, and they have it tougher than I did, because they have the allure of these addictive phones. I did not have that back then. But one thing I share with them was, I worked really hard on my SATs. I took it multiple times. I took a class. I really studied. And when I think back to all the work that I put in, it was hard, but I don't remember all those hours. What I do remember is getting a good score, getting into Stanford, meeting friends who have become lifelong friends, getting these amazing career opportunities, and all of the things that came with working hard. Did I suffer studying for the SAT? Yeah, it was hard. Did I suffer getting really good grades? Yeah, it was really hard. But sometimes suffering is not something to be avoided. It's actually something to be embraced. Do you know why Molly and Jason have not embraced suffering? Do you know why they haven't even faced consequences? Because their income of $142,800 a year has actually enabled this dysfunction. They make enough that they've never really felt true financial pain, so they've never really been forced to change. As I always say, if you still have a roof over your head, an internet and your phone, most people think it's fine. That's why they operate in vague feelings. Like I think I spent this much. I'm not sure where it went. Because they can afford to stay sloppy. A couple making a third of what they make does not have that luxury. They have to track every dollar. But Molly and Jason do not. In fact, they're living like two single people who happen to have a baby together. Separate accounts, Venmo transfers, no shared vision. Deep down, I think they know this isn't sustainable. And that is why they dream rather than plan. Now we need to find out if they are willing to do something about it. I will say that the good news is any couple can change their dynamic. Any couple can. I've seen it happen in a lot of places. Molly, I actually don't mind that you feel even more hopeless now. I don't mind it. And that's why I'm asking you to tell me a little bit more. I want to hear you understanding the depths of the challenge here. Like there's no easy math fix where I go abracadabra and everything goes to the way it should be. Do you get that?

Speaker 2:
[50:21] Yeah, I think reality has been setting in. Okay. There is no magic wand.

Speaker 1:
[50:25] Good. That's great. That's actually the key lesson of life. There is no magic wand. It actually takes a lot of work and sustained consistency. Would you say that the two of you are good or bad at sustained consistency, realism, holding each other accountable, good or bad?

Speaker 3:
[50:47] Bad.

Speaker 1:
[50:47] I could work with that.

Speaker 3:
[50:48] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[50:49] I can work with a couple that is honest about their shortcomings and open to making radical change. Actually, one of my favorite things to do.

Speaker 2:
[50:57] Okay, good.

Speaker 1:
[50:58] I looked at your housing costs, your mortgage, 2000 bucks, utilities, 425, which is a percentage of 20.2% of gross. That's not bad.

Speaker 2:
[51:11] We actually recently, we moved in September to a lower rent. It's rent, it's not mortgage. We actually moved to lower our rent.

Speaker 1:
[51:21] Great, really?

Speaker 3:
[51:22] Yes, we did.

Speaker 1:
[51:23] You specifically said, we got to get a lower rent, so let's move to a smaller or less desirable place.

Speaker 3:
[51:29] We were talking about that for several months before.

Speaker 1:
[51:31] I'm pleasantly surprised. How did you decide to do that? Most couples don't.

Speaker 3:
[51:36] I think it's probably because it's the biggest glaring number. That faces us for our expenses?

Speaker 1:
[51:42] Truthfully, the biggest savings that anybody can have is reducing their housing costs. It's also the hardest one, because moving, whether you're renting or certainly owning, is a big challenge. It's uprooting everything. Sometimes there's kids involved with school districts and on and on. Though almost nobody does it. So I'm pleasantly surprised because it tells me you can do hard things. That's actually giving me more confidence about your ability to change as a couple. Great. All right. You have debt. I want to understand this debt. You have $46,640 of debt. What kind of debt is that?

Speaker 2:
[52:20] Let's see. 21 of that is two vehicles.

Speaker 1:
[52:25] What's the interest rate?

Speaker 2:
[52:27] The interest rate on the truck. I think it's like 4%. I actually don't know that one.

Speaker 1:
[52:35] Fine. What's the other?

Speaker 2:
[52:36] The van is like seven.

Speaker 1:
[52:39] Okay. All right. What else?

Speaker 2:
[52:41] The rest of it is credit card debt.

Speaker 1:
[52:43] $25,000 of credit card debt. Why?

Speaker 2:
[52:46] Great question.

Speaker 3:
[52:47] First one was moving across the country. Then we bought some furniture.

Speaker 2:
[52:54] I mean, when we moved, we did have to buy some stuff because we got rid of so much, and we didn't want to move it across the country. So getting reestablished, I guess, cost money, but then a lot of it was unexpected bills. We had to get a new transmission in our vehicle. We had to get tires. We had dog teeth pulled. And then a lot of, like, you know, I have spent money on my credit card to cover, like, daycare costs. Just...

Speaker 1:
[53:28] What? Why?

Speaker 2:
[53:31] Because it's like it would withdraw from my account, and then it just goes to my credit card if there wasn't enough in there.

Speaker 1:
[53:37] What the f***? Why not get Jason to transfer the $9,500 per month in gross income that he makes?

Speaker 2:
[53:46] Great question. It just doesn't... I've told him before we've had this conversation, Jason and I were like, just transfer the money to me regardless when you get it. I'll pay the rent. I'll do it all. And he's like, we should do that. We should. And then that's it.

Speaker 3:
[54:03] That is a great question. I want to be able to transfer more, and I need to spend more time figuring where all the money is going. I know I can do better day-to-day spending, but the money is not always there. There's a lot of food spending.

Speaker 1:
[54:19] How much?

Speaker 3:
[54:21] I might spend as much as 20, 25 per day.

Speaker 1:
[54:25] All right. This is a lot of money. That's where some of it's going, not all of it, because you make $6,950 a month net. All right. Your debt payments are $1,375 a month. And did you tell me that's a minimum?

Speaker 2:
[54:42] Probably should be, I think we should be.

Speaker 1:
[54:45] Why can't I get a straight answer?

Speaker 2:
[54:47] Well, because I don't know what he spends up. What he spends up.

Speaker 1:
[54:51] Then Molly, why are you answering for him?

Speaker 2:
[54:53] I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[54:53] You've done this several times. Hold on. When I ask about the debt, you answer for him. When I ask about the vehicles, you answer for him. Why is it that you feel that you are taking on so much emotional load, but when I ask questions, you are the first one to answer it?

Speaker 2:
[55:10] Because I feel like he doesn't know.

Speaker 1:
[55:12] Well, why don't you let him try? Let him fail. What's the worst that would happen?

Speaker 2:
[55:15] You're right.

Speaker 1:
[55:16] In how many other places of your relationship have you stepped up to save the day because you're afraid he doesn't know the answer?

Speaker 2:
[55:23] A lot.

Speaker 1:
[55:24] Do you see that you are perpetuating the very dynamic that has caused you to be stuck as we are talking? You guys know it's okay to say, I don't know?

Speaker 2:
[55:35] Maybe not.

Speaker 3:
[55:37] I guess not. I guess not.

Speaker 1:
[55:39] Yeah, that's an honest answer.

Speaker 2:
[55:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[55:41] I actually find that the smartest people I know are very comfortable saying, I don't know. Think about the dynamic that's happening right now. You guys came to me because I've written books on money and I know this stuff. It's okay that you don't know this. It's totally okay. That's why you're here. Do you see what I meant when I said that money is just a symptom of how you feel about yourselves and your relationship? When Molly keeps answering questions for Jason, she's actually not helping him. She's protecting him from having to admit he doesn't know. And Jason is letting her do it because as long as she's the one managing everything, he can wash his hands clean of responsibility. She manages the money. She answers questions for him. It's not the dollar amount here. That's not the issue. It is their dynamic. Molly gets to feel competent and in control. In fact, she has this virtue of I'm protecting Jason. Jason gets to stay disengaged. He gets to avoid discomfort. I don't know. I haven't thought about it. I don't know. Do you know this dynamic? Have you ever seen this dynamic? Are you in this dynamic? This is really common. Where do you think they learned it? We're gonna find out in just a second, right after this. You know, Mother and Father's Days are coming up and I have a great gift idea for you to give to them. Give them a subscription to Masterclass, this episode's sponsor. They have tons of great classes your parents would love, like Developing Good Repeatable Habits with Atomic Habits author, James Clear, Designing Stunning Floral Arrangements with Maurice Harris, or People Intelligence with Vanessa Van Edwards. We all love to see our parents focusing on something new, learning something new. Masterclass is an incredible way to do that. Unlike other platforms, Masterclass puts you in the room with the people who defined their fields. They're not just experts. They are the best in the world. Masterclass has plans starting at $10 a month giving you unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and even me talking about financial wellness. There's no risk to joining. Every new membership comes with a 30-day money back guarantee so you can try it out before you commit. Masterclass keeps adding new classes so there's never been a better time to get in. Right now as a listener of this show you get at least 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/ramit. That's 15% at masterclass.com/ramit. Head to masterclass.com/ramit to see the latest offer. Going back to your childhood, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

Speaker 3:
[58:23] Very little talk about money. I had kind of a unique upbringing. I grew up in essentially what you might call a cult, a community where a bunch of family lived together, shared, pooled all their money.

Speaker 1:
[58:36] Wow.

Speaker 3:
[58:37] It was a whole farm. So had our own livestock, massive gardens, fed our own livestock from the farm as well. Some of the fathers worked in a town nearby and basically pooled all their money together though, just about all of it. And never really a lot of talk about money. I was always outdoors on the farm. Never really had to think about it that much until I was about 15. And then moved away, I got my first job working for a contractor and started to realize what money was all about. That was the same year that my dad actually passed away. At 15? At 15, yes. So I never really got to see him in the real world, I never got any advice from him as far as how to use my money, what to do with it. As far as I remember, I think he only ever saved money. I don't think he ever invested it. He just had a savings account, saved whatever he could. I didn't grow up with a lot, but I never felt like that.

Speaker 1:
[59:40] Was this a, you called it a sort of cult, was it a religious cult?

Speaker 3:
[59:45] It was, you can look it up on Wikipedia.

Speaker 1:
[59:48] What's it called?

Speaker 3:
[59:49] It's called The Move. It's all over the world.

Speaker 1:
[59:52] It's still in existence?

Speaker 3:
[59:54] I guess it is in small pockets. I don't think it's as big as it once was, but it definitely is around.

Speaker 1:
[59:58] Was it normal for people who grew up in this cult to leave and to not go back?

Speaker 3:
[60:05] I think during my generation, because it was multi-generational, it definitely became quite a norm. Many people my age left and never came back.

Speaker 1:
[60:14] Did your mom stay in it?

Speaker 3:
[60:16] My mom stayed in it in spirit, but once my dad passed away, she wanted to be close to her relatives, so we moved back to the Midwest from Canada. Got it. Yeah. She still very much keeps in contact with many people from there.

Speaker 1:
[60:30] Oh, okay. All right.

Speaker 3:
[60:31] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[60:32] Understanding that money was not talked about when you were a kid, I get that. How much focus was there on thinking ahead, long-term planning?

Speaker 3:
[60:44] I have a very clear memory of this because I was very surprised. When we moved down to the Midwest, that was my last year of high school, and I went from a tiny little private school within our own community to a public school, with 460 fellow graduates. And I lived with my aunt and uncle because my mother and my two sisters only had enough room in their apartment for them. My aunt and uncle lived right down the road. And the very first thing I started doing was, you need to go to college, you need to get all these, you're very bright, you can get all these advanced education classes while you're in high school, blah, blah, blah, start applying. This is what you need to do. You're going to do it. And I got scholarships, I got a full ride to college that year, just from that last year of high school, which I don't know how that happened. Wow.

Speaker 1:
[61:33] What do you take away from that? That's pretty interesting, pretty impressive too.

Speaker 3:
[61:37] I felt pretty good to get a scholarship, full ride to college. I honestly, like I said, I felt pretty good. I wasn't probably as excited as some people would be because I just didn't have that in my upbringing.

Speaker 1:
[61:50] Do you get excited in general? Like excited, physically excited?

Speaker 3:
[61:54] Not often.

Speaker 1:
[61:55] Yeah. Do you smile in pictures?

Speaker 3:
[61:57] I don't smile often.

Speaker 1:
[61:59] Molly, I noticed that you're nodding and you're noticing this, right? Yeah. What are you taking away so far?

Speaker 2:
[62:06] He gets excited, but not like, yeah, like there's, we would be hard pressed to know that he is.

Speaker 1:
[62:10] Jason, why do you think I bring this up?

Speaker 3:
[62:13] I think a lot of this financial issues that Molly and I have had brings up talks that never end well. And I think that by me not showing emotion, I often show that I don't care.

Speaker 1:
[62:29] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[62:30] And I think that has an emotional weight and effect on her.

Speaker 1:
[62:35] I'm jumping in quickly because sometimes when couples are this disconnected, they need a visual tool to help them identify what they're actually feeling. So I wanted to try something. I pulled up this beautiful visual called The Wheel of Emotions. I learned about this in therapy. It's a color coded chart that breaks down feelings into specific categories that go beyond happy, sad or angry. There are hundreds of emotions on this wheel. You can find it. Just search for Wheel of Emotions. And I asked each of them to pick two or three words that describe how they feel about money in their relationship. Let's listen as they go through the exercise. It's very illuminating. Can we just do a quick exercise right now? How do you both feel about money in your relationship? Be really honest. How do you feel about money? You can pick two or three, feel free. Jason.

Speaker 3:
[63:26] Embarrassed, resentful, and apathetic.

Speaker 1:
[63:32] Thank you. Molly.

Speaker 2:
[63:34] That's interesting. That's really interesting. I have two of the same of yours. Embarrassed, resentful, and then overwhelmed. Wow.

Speaker 3:
[63:48] I almost picked that one too.

Speaker 1:
[63:50] Now, I would love for the two of you to discuss what you just learned.

Speaker 3:
[63:53] I think the resentful one is interesting.

Speaker 2:
[63:55] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[63:56] Between us.

Speaker 2:
[63:58] Why do you feel resentful?

Speaker 3:
[63:59] I think resentful in the fact that I feel like I'm working really hard all the time, so that we have money, and I feel like I also want to improve in a lot of ways in our financial stability, in our financial life together. So I feel like I'm being attacked sometimes, and I resent that.

Speaker 1:
[64:23] Hold on. Now toss the ball back to Molly, Jason.

Speaker 3:
[64:27] What about you? Where does the resentful come from?

Speaker 2:
[64:30] I guess I feel resentful that there was never a decision made that this is the roles that we would play. It was just assumed that because you make more money, this is where you would be, and that I would be the stay-at-home mom, and we're two plus years in, that I would still just have to take the brunt of if there's no school or if there's she's sick or like that this that it would be just assumed this is where I would be.

Speaker 1:
[65:02] Can I ask you guys, did you think you would end up in this dynamic with your money when you were younger?

Speaker 3:
[65:08] I don't think so.

Speaker 2:
[65:10] And what's weird is that like I am, I guess it's not weird because it happens all the time, but I am like living my mother's role. It's just so bizarre.

Speaker 1:
[65:23] You don't say. Tell me. Let's go back. What do you remember about your family? What did they say about money when you were younger?

Speaker 2:
[65:32] I did not even really think about it until my parents got divorced. I knew we were not as well off as some of my friends because we lived in the neighborhood next to the rich people. But when we moved out, I moved in with just my mom and I, that's when I knew we were struggling financially. And she had to take... Because that's why she had to work nights on top of her day job.

Speaker 1:
[65:57] What did she say?

Speaker 2:
[65:58] She told me she didn't want to take any money from my dad for alimony, and that's why she has to get a second job.

Speaker 1:
[66:05] Why did she not want to take alimony?

Speaker 2:
[66:07] Because she wanted to get divorced.

Speaker 1:
[66:08] What do you make of that?

Speaker 2:
[66:10] Now, I think that was the first time that she could have control over something she didn't have control of at all in their relationship. So her deciding not to take money from him was almost like taking her power back or something.

Speaker 1:
[66:25] And when your parents were together, when you were younger, was your dad the primary earner? And if so, what did your mom do? Did she work or not?

Speaker 2:
[66:34] He was a primary earner and she was at home with us, but I don't, she went back to work when I was pretty young.

Speaker 1:
[66:42] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[66:42] Then she remarried and I had to move out of the state. Yeah, she ended up marrying someone that is, you know, had a lot of money in a way of like land and he never spent very much. She's very frugal.

Speaker 1:
[67:03] What lessons do you take away from her relationship with money?

Speaker 2:
[67:07] She has a very weird relationship with money. I don't like it. She told me that with my father, she had no control. And so she never, he said, don't worry about it. While he was like racking up debt and kind of ruining his own financial picture and ours as a family. When she remarried, she kind of took this role on as like not wanting to, she doesn't want to spend too much money. She hides, like she like scrolls away money that she can then like give to us. She doesn't want to tell him, although I don't think he would care. But that's how she feels about it.

Speaker 1:
[67:48] Why does she do that?

Speaker 2:
[67:50] She doesn't want to appear to be like a gold digger, I guess if you will, or that she's after his money. He doesn't want to appear to be greedy.

Speaker 1:
[68:00] What image do you think you might be trying to uphold as it relates to money?

Speaker 2:
[68:05] I think for me, I try to uphold an image of like, we're doing fine, we're doing okay.

Speaker 1:
[68:10] And then you mentioned to me that you said it's ironic that I'm living my mother's life. What did you mean by that?

Speaker 2:
[68:17] I have somehow gotten myself like in this dynamic where I don't know where money's coming from and I don't know what's happening. And I just have to be okay with it or be silently resentful of it.

Speaker 1:
[68:38] Do you?

Speaker 2:
[68:39] I probably am like, yeah, I'm maybe not as silent as she was, but I am resentful of not having control of more of our finances.

Speaker 1:
[68:51] Do you have a relationship with your dad?

Speaker 2:
[68:54] Oh, yeah, no, he's passed away three years ago, four years ago.

Speaker 1:
[68:57] Okay. Oh, sorry to hear that.

Speaker 2:
[68:59] He was in love with Disney World, and we would go almost every other year. And it was never with money that he had saved up. It was always on the credit card, and he would just go all out. Oh. All out. He would just spend, he loved spending money that he didn't necessarily have, although I didn't know that at the time.

Speaker 1:
[69:23] And then did he rack up credit card debt?

Speaker 2:
[69:25] Yes, a ton. And that means he kept borrowing against his home, my childhood home, and then that got foreclosed. And then he had to file for bankruptcy on top of that. Luckily, he had a pension from, he worked for the government, so that was what kind of saved him in the end. But he went bankrupt and never really planned for the future. Lived with my brother for the last like eight, ten years of his life. Had dementia. Yeah. So, when he died, I got like a small check from his life insurance. And that was actually part of our moving costs. But that went into us moving.

Speaker 1:
[70:04] When you look back at money, young childhood, until you graduated from college, what are the lessons that you take away from your experiences?

Speaker 2:
[70:13] I had a very like negative view of money. Like I said, the neighborhood I grew up in was a little bit more like lower class to like the really expensive houses were very close to where we lived. And that's where all my friends lived. So I knew I was not there. And I think I internalized that into being like, I don't care. I don't care about money. Like, I don't want it. I know in my 20s that then translated to like living very much by the moment and living experiences and spending everything I had to go out of the country and then coming back broke and thinking that I was like winning because I was like, all these people are in the rat race and I'm like living these experiences, you know, I'm living life.

Speaker 1:
[71:05] That's very perceptive. Okay. And did that change at some point?

Speaker 2:
[71:10] It kind of changed in my mid thirties. It's like kind of when I started to focus more on my career and kind of saw the writing on the wall, I wanted a family. I wanted to be more responsible. And that's when that kind of shifted. And I was like, maybe I should have invested a little more into, you know, not just living for the moment.

Speaker 1:
[71:33] You ever go to therapy?

Speaker 2:
[71:34] I have, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[71:35] Oh, like, do you still go?

Speaker 2:
[71:39] I haven't gone recently, no.

Speaker 1:
[71:40] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[71:41] And it was definitely when I was still single and I didn't have any kids.

Speaker 1:
[71:47] What's occurring to you right now?

Speaker 2:
[71:50] Actually I'm thinking about, I really wanted to have children and I didn't see that happening because I was in my late thirties. And she, I remember my therapist being like, you know, be careful what you wish for. She's like, this isn't, just getting a partner and a kid isn't make, mean you're like gonna suddenly be happy. It's a lot of work and a lot of that sometimes makes people really unhappy. I sometimes look around, I'm like, this is what I wanted. I got what I wanted and I'm, and I'm still unhappy.

Speaker 1:
[72:21] That's quite profound. I'm appreciating you letting that moment sit here for just a second as we, both of us and I think Jason as well, all three of us just grapple with the enormity of what you just said. The idea that we can really set this big intention. We can even make it happen. And as the old saying goes, wherever you go, there you are.

Speaker 2:
[72:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[72:48] And it's not about having a daughter. I'm sure she's beautiful. It's not about being in a relationship, but it's about like, am I getting what I wanted and what I needed? And perhaps even more deeply, do I even know what I want? Do I even know what makes me happy?

Speaker 2:
[73:08] I don't think I know what would make me happy. I don't know when there's like the moment when you're like, and I know this to be true, but like where I'll feel like I can take a breath. I'm just kind of like, okay.

Speaker 1:
[73:24] It's interesting. I notice you're crying at that. Yeah. Why?

Speaker 2:
[73:30] Because I feel like I'm just been holding on really tightly for a while. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Speaker 1:
[73:38] Molly says she got everything she thought she wanted and she is still unhappy. I appreciate the honesty. Actually, I think that might be the subtitle for The American Dream. I got everything I thought I wanted and I'm still unhappy. So I asked Molly after hearing that, if she could tell Jason directly what she needs to him. Listen to her response.

Speaker 2:
[74:03] To me, it feels like you think I spend money all willy nilly, and if I were to get all of the money, say I was the one that was receiving all of the money that we spend throughout the month, that I would just spend it all. But I don't think you understand how hard I try to stay within certain lines, and I think you actually spend a lot of money without consequence. I think you spend a lot more money than you think you do, without any thought to us as a whole. I need to have control of our finances. I need to be in charge of it.

Speaker 1:
[74:41] It's quite interesting, Molly, that you said, I feel like I've been holding on really tightly, but you also said, I want more control over the money. How do you reconcile that?

Speaker 2:
[74:53] I think I want to have more control because I don't trust him to have some of that. You know, coming up right now, it's like, and this happens a lot, I think about my mom and the way she was with money, and then my dad just gets a pass.

Speaker 1:
[75:10] Oh.

Speaker 2:
[75:11] When I think about that dynamic, a lot of my mom would get a lot of the brunt of like my bad feelings about that time. And my dad would just get a pass because he wasn't someone I actually looked at as being responsible.

Speaker 1:
[75:24] And make the connection to this relationship, Molly, go ahead.

Speaker 2:
[75:27] God.

Speaker 1:
[75:28] Make it. Say it out loud.

Speaker 2:
[75:31] I'm trying to, it's all coming to be right now. It's all, yeah, I guess I don't expect my partner now to make responsible decisions. I can't trust him to be responsible with our money because I've never seen that before. I guess it's never been modeled and I don't see it in him now.

Speaker 1:
[75:50] Jason, what would you say to Molly if you knew that she would listen when it came to money?

Speaker 3:
[75:55] Molly, I think if I were to take over more of the bills, which you talked about, which I've never done, I would like you to know that I would be willing to take that off your plate, reduce the amount of finances that you have to control, and also share actual accounts where you have access to all the income. I think that would be something that you could trust me with. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[76:23] What do you both think of that, what you just heard from each other?

Speaker 2:
[76:26] I think it's a little conflicting views on how to do the money management in our home like daily.

Speaker 3:
[76:35] I just know in the beginning you said, you have everything in your name, which is a lot of responsibility. So I feel like I could share that responsibility more.

Speaker 1:
[76:45] What I'm hearing on a positive side is that you're both willing to change the way you've set it up. That part is good. I think you perhaps are not thinking about the ramifications of some of these things. Like if one person is in charge of the money, and then they get hit by a bus, the other person has no idea what's going on.

Speaker 2:
[77:00] True.

Speaker 1:
[77:02] And you have a daughter, so that's not a good position to be in. You also have zero dollars in savings. So just to be very blunt, Molly, if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, what do you think would happen with Jason and your daughter?

Speaker 2:
[77:15] There would be a lot of scrambling for him to figure out, yeah, a lot of passwords or who to talk to about literally all of our debt. And so, yeah, there needs to, we're playing, we're each playing, like, I feel like a really individual role. Like this is, that's how, yeah, I'm realizing. And it's not like this group decision making or group dynamic. When it comes to our finances, we're both just doing our own thing.

Speaker 1:
[77:43] Why are you not married out of curiosity? No judgment, just curious.

Speaker 2:
[77:46] For me, it was financial to be honest.

Speaker 1:
[77:49] Really?

Speaker 2:
[77:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[77:50] Tell me more.

Speaker 2:
[77:51] We had really bad credit and my credit was really good. And when we had talked about like combining, I was like, and I kind of told him at some point, maybe this was before we had the baby, but I was like, I don't seem having like a contract together being the best decision for me. Like you're not a good financially speaking, it would not make sense for me to do that.

Speaker 1:
[78:15] Can I ask a personal question? Feel free to not answer this. How were you uncomfortable getting married for financial reasons, but you were willing to have a kid together?

Speaker 2:
[78:25] I think I didn't think it was going to happen. I didn't think we were going to get pregnant.

Speaker 3:
[78:30] I would be happy to get married. I just never thought of it as a huge priority. I didn't think of anything in regard to financial. By the way, my credit has improved quite significantly since we met. That's good. That's true. On my own, because we don't have anything combined. But I don't have any other reason than just didn't feel like it was one way or the other about it. I didn't feel like we needed to.

Speaker 1:
[78:55] All right. So if this were to happen, if you were to be able to start to achieve some of these goals, working hand in hand, it would feel great. What's stopping you from doing that now?

Speaker 2:
[79:07] I just I need his help. I just don't want to do it all on my own.

Speaker 1:
[79:11] Okay. Jason, what's stopping you from accomplishing what you want?

Speaker 3:
[79:16] Not taking the time to make a plan and actually sit down and do it. I've done some of the things, but I could do a lot more.

Speaker 1:
[79:24] What if you don't, Jason?

Speaker 3:
[79:25] What if I don't? Then I feel like we're just going to keep going with the same cycle.

Speaker 1:
[79:29] And then what will happen?

Speaker 3:
[79:32] Then all of a sudden we're 50 and then all of our retirement is looming around the corner. Our daughter is going to graduate and we're going to be stuck in the same situation.

Speaker 1:
[79:42] And then what?

Speaker 3:
[79:43] And then we're looking forward to an uncomfortable later life. Could be any number of things. Not good.

Speaker 1:
[79:51] Like?

Speaker 3:
[79:52] Moving in with relatives or not having money for our daughter to go to college or having no retirement fund. Not doing any of the other things that we really like to do, like travel and actually have a rich life, an enjoyable lifestyle.

Speaker 1:
[80:10] What about for you, Molly? What if nothing really changes?

Speaker 2:
[80:13] To be honest, I just I don't see how we can how we would be able to stay together. It's super harsh to say that and I don't want that, but I wouldn't be able to live like this forever.

Speaker 1:
[80:23] How long could you go?

Speaker 2:
[80:25] Until it felt like there was no hope left. That sounds terrible. No, until I guess, I don't know, until it really felt like the partnership is not partnering.

Speaker 1:
[80:40] Well, it's not today.

Speaker 2:
[80:41] No, it's not today.

Speaker 1:
[80:42] You've tried many, many times to get him involved. So the partnership is not partnering. So what else?

Speaker 2:
[80:49] I don't know. I don't know when would be the point of no return. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[80:55] I don't expect an answer to that very difficult question. But I do think that it is valuable to ask, what if nothing changes? And I think that that is worth discussing, probably more with the therapist. It's not working because I can see your CSP. But more importantly, it's not working between the two of you. You're totally disconnected about money. Let's talk about where you are today and where you want to go. When you think about your money situation, as we've discussed it today, what part feels like the hardest part to face?

Speaker 2:
[81:30] The retirement and savings. Okay. Like literally, as far as like numbers go, we're trying to pay off our debt. That's our biggest first thing, which we do have a plan for. Just to sell our truck. It's almost paid off and I think we could get about $15,000 for it and then put that all towards our credit card debt.

Speaker 1:
[81:55] You're going to sell a truck and put it towards your high interest debt? This is the greatest day of my f***ing life. I never hear this. Never! I can't believe it. Well done.

Speaker 3:
[82:10] All right.

Speaker 1:
[82:11] Now, if the two of you can start to move forward in things like paying off your debt, what would that feel like to do it together?

Speaker 2:
[82:22] Incredible.

Speaker 3:
[82:22] I would feel, yeah, I would think that would be amazing.

Speaker 2:
[82:25] Such a, like, like that I could just feel like the weight off my, I mean, it would just be really great. Great step.

Speaker 3:
[82:33] We have talked about some of that in a way where we up our daughter's daycare to full time to where she could, to where Molly could possibly at least get a closer to full time remote job perhaps. Great.

Speaker 1:
[82:47] I think that's an option. What about your work on the family finances, Jason?

Speaker 3:
[82:51] I think I would like to take over more of the bills. I think I could easily help with that. Put them in my name. So I'm the one that has to keep track of them.

Speaker 2:
[82:59] I mean, that would be huge.

Speaker 1:
[83:01] Molly, what would it take for Jason to regain your trust?

Speaker 2:
[83:04] We, I think it starts with weekly meetings. And showing up for that. Like picking a day that works for him where he's not too tired, because it's true, he does come home midweek and he's worked a long day. And maybe not the best day to do that. So like setting a schedule, sticking to it for the next six weeks would be huge.

Speaker 1:
[83:25] And what happens in these meetings?

Speaker 3:
[83:27] We can see how we are on paying off our debt. We can discuss any number of changes we made, such as dropping subscriptions, what bills we have for that month, just basic things like that too even helps, I think. Just to know what we have months a month, so we're not always wondering like I am, what I have in my account and what I have to spend.

Speaker 1:
[83:48] Can I add something to it? We don't operate on a weekly basis. That's not how we think about money. That's too short term. You'll never actually achieve anything consequential if you're thinking on a weekly basis. Second, you don't think about how much you can afford to send to your partner. The money goes there first. And then what's left over after hitting all of these other goals is what you can afford to spend on things like eating out. Total recalibration of the way you think about money. Right now, lunches and all this other stuff is coming first. It's actually the opposite. How does that strike you?

Speaker 3:
[84:28] No, I agree. I think that's the way it needs to be. I would love to set up a joint account. I think that would be the easiest way.

Speaker 1:
[84:39] I agree. But yes, how come it's so easy all of a sudden? How come you haven't already done this? Tell me the answer to this question because that is the real thing going on here.

Speaker 3:
[84:48] I haven't because I haven't felt the urgency. Or I guess I haven't realized that that's probably the best way to avoid the constant issues that we have with money when we talk.

Speaker 1:
[84:58] Why is it that a guy like me has to come in and tell you this for you to believe it?

Speaker 3:
[85:02] I've been used to running my own finances my whole life. I suppose that's part of it. And I make money and I put it in my account and then I disperse it. And I think it's just been a habit. And I guess adjusting to family life financially has not, I guess it hasn't been as smooth the transition as I thought it would be. I've been apathetic. That's why I picked that word because I know I have been. And lazy in a lot of ways. I work hard at work, but I don't take it home as much as I should.

Speaker 1:
[85:34] I appreciate that. That is candid. That to me is the truth. And Molly, what role do you think you play in this dynamic? Hold on. Before you answer my question, were you struck by his response?

Speaker 2:
[85:49] When he said lazy, I was actually surprised he said that because I've thought that, I don't know if I've ever said that. I definitely have never told him that.

Speaker 1:
[85:58] Why?

Speaker 2:
[85:59] I think it's scary for me to think that I'm with someone that's lazy.

Speaker 1:
[86:03] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[86:04] Well, I know.

Speaker 1:
[86:07] Y'all are really peeling it back today. This is honest. Molly, talk more about that. It is scary for me to think that I'm with somebody who's lazy.

Speaker 2:
[86:16] I think I'm trying to hold together an image of where I want us to be or where I think we should be. And I am not facing the reality of where we are and who we are showing up as in this relationship.

Speaker 1:
[86:35] Where was it that I heard this word image before? Who else had an image?

Speaker 2:
[86:39] Oh, my mom. Yeah, totally. Totally. It's like just ignore what's happening if it appears to be fine to other people.

Speaker 1:
[86:50] Yeah, I find this to be quite startling, quite honest, quite surprising that the two of you have never actually been this honest with each other before. It's almost like we can be delicate and polite ourselves right into total disconnection. Yeah, I don't want to operate a relationship on the surface level. I don't not with my wife or my partner. So I find all these things to be happening here, but I see you both making progress step by step, talking about it, using different words than you used at the beginning of our conversation. That part I like.

Speaker 2:
[87:25] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[87:25] All right. I'm going to put these numbers up on screen. Your debt payments $1,375 are considerable. You also have $785 of car payments. It's doable with your income, but it adds up. You have $1,100 of groceries. Again, it's doable, but it adds up. What's the vision here? What are you going to try to accomplish?

Speaker 3:
[87:47] Can we reduce our fixed costs so we can get an emergency fund and some savings? I would love to do that for a start.

Speaker 1:
[87:55] Love it.

Speaker 3:
[87:56] And pay off our credit card debt.

Speaker 1:
[87:57] Fantastic. Molly, what do you say?

Speaker 2:
[88:00] Yeah, I think the first step I see, I really want to sell the truck and get the credit card debt down.

Speaker 1:
[88:06] Love it.

Speaker 2:
[88:06] If we sold the truck, then it would be $365 less a month for the car payment.

Speaker 3:
[88:14] And less for the insurance.

Speaker 1:
[88:17] You're down now to 72%. Good progress.

Speaker 3:
[88:20] Well, definitely subscriptions. I have a couple of doubles that I just found when I looked at it. Plus, we don't need nearly that many.

Speaker 1:
[88:28] Just tell me the number. Right now, it's $545 a month.

Speaker 3:
[88:31] Okay. I think we're going to go ahead.

Speaker 1:
[88:34] No, Jason, stop answering for him, Molly.

Speaker 2:
[88:37] Sorry.

Speaker 3:
[88:38] I could drop it down to $180.

Speaker 1:
[88:40] You can drop it to $180. Okay. And then what about Molly?

Speaker 2:
[88:44] $35.

Speaker 1:
[88:46] $35?

Speaker 2:
[88:47] Yeah, most of the stuff is in his name.

Speaker 1:
[88:49] $215. All right, we're down to 68%. Not bad. Not bad.

Speaker 2:
[88:53] I do have to make an addendum. Our health insurance is going up. So the insurance line, it's going to be probably $365.

Speaker 1:
[89:00] You're back to 73%. Looks like we got to take something else off. Groceries?

Speaker 2:
[89:05] We could go down to $900 for sure.

Speaker 1:
[89:07] All right. $900, we're down to 70%.

Speaker 2:
[89:10] Still so much.

Speaker 1:
[89:11] What are you all thinking so far?

Speaker 2:
[89:13] The debt payments is a lot. Yep.

Speaker 1:
[89:16] So let me give you some numbers on your debt payments. I'm just talking about your credit card debt at $25,000. Okay. If you pay that off at $1,000 a month, it's going to take you 37 months, which is three years, and you're going to pay $12,000 in interest. If on the other hand, you pay off $2,000 a month, you're going to pay it off in 15 months with $4,700 in interest. Okay. So you can see that the numbers become quite different. Now, if you put $15,000 of that truck sale towards the credit card debt, then $2,000 pays it off in five months with $730 of interest. What do you notice?

Speaker 3:
[90:02] A lot less interest.

Speaker 1:
[90:04] And a lot faster.

Speaker 2:
[90:05] A lot faster. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[90:07] Can I ask you something? You got anything else in that garage of yours that you can sell?

Speaker 3:
[90:11] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[90:12] A couple things.

Speaker 3:
[90:13] Yeah. We have a full garage.

Speaker 1:
[90:15] You know what? 70% of the American households I talked to have like a bunch of stuff in their garage that actually could sell for something meaningful.

Speaker 2:
[90:23] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[90:23] Is that you?

Speaker 3:
[90:24] We do have some things that we've been meaning to sell. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[90:27] This is the easiest thing you can do ever. Get rid of it. Okay, great. The more money you do now, the more you can pay that debt off quickly. All right. We got to go to the other stuff on this CSP because it's driving me insane. Investments are at 3%. Savings are at essentially zero. Meanwhile, your guilt-free spending is 25%. I suspect it's actually higher than that. What does this tell you?

Speaker 2:
[90:54] This is clearly us living in the moment. Again, like just how we have always lived.

Speaker 3:
[90:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[91:00] So what do you want to do?

Speaker 2:
[91:01] I want to make some sacrifices and really tighten our budget. And I'm ready to spend the next year or so, however long we need to, I guess, to really get ourselves into a better spot.

Speaker 1:
[91:16] Let's get specific.

Speaker 3:
[91:16] I do too. I'll skip coffee every day and no lunch.

Speaker 1:
[91:21] How are you going to eat?

Speaker 2:
[91:22] Yeah. I'd have to probably spend a little more on lunches stuff for him, if we were to do that. Yeah. There would be some change. I think $1,000 would be safer for groceries, more realistic. Just being honest there. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[91:38] I appreciate the honesty. We need it. Then we said that you eat out 12 times a week. Let's just average that because it was like, let's say 20 bucks for lunch, and then coffee is what, like eight bucks?

Speaker 3:
[91:50] The ones I get are five, not more than five.

Speaker 1:
[91:52] Five. All right. So we got like 20. So just for easy math, can we just say an average of 10?

Speaker 3:
[91:57] I think it's fair.

Speaker 1:
[91:59] All right. And so that's 120 a week. So 480 a month. I don't know. Are you going to zero? That feels a bit aggressive. I don't think you're going to go to zero.

Speaker 3:
[92:11] I could definitely go to zero. I can definitely go to zero on lunches. I know I can. I've done that plenty before. I got new. I have it recently. I'm a hundred percent sure I can do that. Coffee, I feel like I'll go out for coffee more occasionally. You know, occasionally, not all the time.

Speaker 1:
[92:26] So $240 off your conscious spending plan. Let's take a look. Oh, that's not going to cut it. Can I show you a different way to do this?

Speaker 2:
[92:34] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[92:35] What y'all need to do is literally pay yourselves first, which means put the amount that you want to save every month there. Start with that. Don't start with like, oh, I got to have coffee. No, if you have coffee money left over, great. Otherwise, you don't get coffee.

Speaker 3:
[92:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[92:53] So how much goes into investments? The number recommended is 5-10%. You're in your 40s and you have very little investments. You need more than 10%. I'm going to offer the number. 15% it is. That's what happens when you don't pick a number, Ramit Sethi. Okay. 1100, right on the money. Boom, there you go. How much you want to do for savings? 5-10% is recommended. Y'all need more than that.

Speaker 3:
[93:15] 10%?

Speaker 1:
[93:16] Nope. Go higher than that.

Speaker 2:
[93:18] 12%?

Speaker 3:
[93:18] Oh, we need more than that. Okay. 15%.

Speaker 1:
[93:21] Good.

Speaker 3:
[93:21] Great. All right.

Speaker 1:
[93:23] You all have $135 a month to spend on everything. Now, I don't think that's realistic. Do you?

Speaker 2:
[93:29] No.

Speaker 1:
[93:30] No.

Speaker 3:
[93:31] Maybe not.

Speaker 1:
[93:32] Actually, until now, I don't even still fully understand where your money is going on a monthly basis. Do you?

Speaker 3:
[93:40] Not fully. No.

Speaker 1:
[93:42] So then why not simply start over, create a joint account where the bulk of the money, the gross income that comes in every month is $11,900. The net is $86.50. Why not literally take $8,000 and send it to the joint account? Each of you can have 300 bucks to do whatever you want with. Go enjoy whatever you want. But your future is together $8,000 every month net comes in to that joint account. And that's the money you use to decide where it goes. When that money is in one joint account, suddenly it's going to be very clear where that money is getting spent.

Speaker 3:
[94:28] I 100% agree.

Speaker 2:
[94:29] I agree.

Speaker 3:
[94:30] I think that's the best.

Speaker 1:
[94:31] All right.

Speaker 2:
[94:33] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[94:33] That's it? That's all we need to do? Just put it in a joint account and we're golden?

Speaker 2:
[94:37] Yeah. That's a great start.

Speaker 1:
[94:39] What's going to happen then?

Speaker 3:
[94:43] Well, yeah, thinking about it that way though, investment and savings first makes huge sense to me. Then what we have, whatever we have, we have.

Speaker 1:
[94:52] I want to add one more bit of good news for you. Once you pay off that debt and you pay it off aggressively, if you take that $2,000 that you were putting towards debt and you invest all of it, you literally just flip a switch and you send it to your investment account every single month, you will have not $1,000,000, but $1.75,000,000 in 25 years. That actually starts to be really cool.

Speaker 3:
[95:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[95:22] That's amazing. Remember, that $1.75,000,000 does not include any raises that you might get. It does not include your ability to pay off the debt faster by selling bikes, etc. It does not include any upside. It also does not include any downside, like a layoff, which is why I want you to have a savings. But do you start to see, it starts to become more comfortable, more achievable if you can operate as a team.

Speaker 3:
[95:49] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[95:49] What do you think?

Speaker 3:
[95:51] I see that. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[95:52] I like that. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[95:52] I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 2:
[95:54] All right. I like the reality that you're speaking here.

Speaker 1:
[95:58] Yeah. So, let me tell you where there are some holes in your plan because there are some holes.

Speaker 2:
[96:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[96:04] And you two are going to need to figure it out together.

Speaker 2:
[96:06] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[96:07] First of all, right now, you still only have $135 a month on discretionary spending. That's simply unsustainable. That is 2%. And from a couple that currently is probably spending more like 30%, that's just impossible for you to achieve. I think you two might be able to realistically achieve 10% if you were totally dialed in as a team, completely dialed in. That 10% is like we eat out once a month, and we basically never go out for coffee or random stuff, everything. And maybe, just maybe we take a very modest vacation once a year. But like 2%, it's not possible. So you're going to have to make some adjustments in your CSP. OK. You may have to dial down your investment contributions, but like that's money you're not going to have later. So that's a tough one. You may have to dial down your savings. I really would not like to see that, but that might have to happen. Or more likely, you probably have a bunch of money you're just spending without even thinking about it. I bet you there's at least two, three hundred bucks a month of random that's just like absorbed into the ether. Find it, fix it, put it towards your discretionary spending.

Speaker 2:
[97:21] OK.

Speaker 1:
[97:23] Next up, just a couple of things. As far as it currently stands, you cannot buy a house. No time soon. As far as real estate investing, I don't know where you would get the money. And taking out a loan, it's all great if it works, but if it doesn't, then you're really ****. So would I do that? I know as a GC, you have a lot of experience to be able to do that and save money. I would be extremely cautious about doing that anytime in the near term future. I wouldn't even think about it until I had a clear trajectory for my retirement to have enough, until I had at least 12 months of an emergency fund. I'm talking big. That's a lot of money. And everything was dialed in with the two of you as it relates to money. So basically, I wouldn't think about it for the next five years plus. Your daughter, you can't afford to pay for her college. Not now. And the money you are putting aside for her, whatever that number is, I would rather have you put that money towards your debt. She has time. You two have far less. She has the opportunity to take out loans or go to a community college or get scholarships. The two of you have none of those things later in life. It is possible if you all were to triple your household income, you could do those things. Yes. And you were to get totally dialed in on all the investing and saving and all that. Yes, you could do it. But you're in your 40s and until now, like you don't even share accounts. So, I think it's important to start being realistic with what is likely and what is not. Early retirement, probably not likely. Could you? Sure, if everything went right. But I don't make a life plan based on every single thing going perfectly right. Are you hearing the urgency of what I am sharing with you?

Speaker 2:
[99:11] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[99:12] Molly, how are you feeling right now?

Speaker 2:
[99:14] Bummed. It's pretty bleak.

Speaker 1:
[99:19] That's an interesting word you chose. Bleak. Bleak because?

Speaker 2:
[99:24] Because I guess a lot of our plans to get ourselves in a better situation kind of feel like they're not going to be possible.

Speaker 1:
[99:38] Oh, like the, you mean the real estate investing one?

Speaker 2:
[99:42] I thought that would be a good leverage for us because of our combined talents. I just worry now like that's and even if it's like a dream, we can do in like five years from now, that would be cool. I just see I see it as a way to help get us farther along than. We can with just, you know, like you said, if I just if I made $50,000 more a year, that's not that's not going to change things.

Speaker 1:
[100:10] Can I make an observation? Yeah, so first of all, I don't mind that you're upset. I would be upset in your situation as well, because this is probably the first time you're hearing somebody just give you some blunt feedback.

Speaker 2:
[100:24] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[100:24] First of all, I'm not the ultimate authority with money. Nobody is. You too will decide what is right for you. And if after a few years you go, hey, we actually want to do this real estate investment and we have the skills and we've carefully run the numbers, that's totally up to you. But more importantly, I actually don't consider this bleak. Bleak is if you don't do anything differently for five years, then your situation is bleak. And I mean it. It gets really bad really fast. You all still have time. Bleak means you can't ever eat out. You can still eat out a little bit. You have to be way more thoughtful about it.

Speaker 2:
[101:09] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[101:09] My family growing up once every six weeks or so with a coupon. I wouldn't call it bleak. It was a big deal for us to go out to pizza. So that's not bleak. You two are going to end up with at least $1.75 million if you are totally dialed in, possibly more. And one other thing, if you actually do increase your income by $50,000, Molly, after getting all of this stuff dialed in, that makes a massive difference to the overall financial picture. Like gargantuan. That could actually allow things like real estate investing, et cetera. So don't discount that. But right now, if you were to do it today, it would be largely meaningless. Fix this. Fix what is happening. It's almost like there's a fire in your house and you two are focused on building a deck. F*** the deck. Put the fire out. We'll deal with that later. That is my approach.

Speaker 2:
[102:07] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[102:08] All right?

Speaker 2:
[102:08] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[102:09] Love that approach.

Speaker 1:
[102:10] Jason, what about you? How are you feeling hearing this?

Speaker 3:
[102:12] I love the idea of getting a combined account and savings and investment first. I love that whole plan. I think it's hugely helpful just to my thought process.

Speaker 2:
[102:24] It's like a puzzle that we both like puzzles and we have to figure it out together.

Speaker 1:
[102:30] Totally. We have this much. We know that we have to prioritize paying off the high interest debt because it's drowning us. So we already have this much taken away every single month for the next roughly six months. What else can we do now? And then what can we change on month seven? It's like a puzzle. It's a three dimensional puzzle. I love the way you described that.

Speaker 2:
[102:51] Can I say one thing?

Speaker 1:
[102:52] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[102:54] I just thought about it. It's like if we, like our powers combined, if we're both motivated and working on this together, like that's where I can just, it's like I just know that we could get some momentum that would make us both feel really excited and want to like, to see the fruit of that labor. I know we would, like our powers combined, that's what I keep thinking, is like we could make some real change and like real awesome things happen.

Speaker 1:
[103:21] I agree. I agree. Do you agree, Jason?

Speaker 3:
[103:23] I agree. I definitely agree.

Speaker 1:
[103:25] Amazing. The two of you working together?

Speaker 2:
[103:28] I would love it. I would love it.

Speaker 1:
[103:30] I asked Molly how long she could keep living like this. She couldn't answer. She is finally seeing what we have been seeing this entire conversation. Jason's disengagement goes beyond money. It's about everything. Her response, which is to take on the debt in her name, to try more and more, to stack on responsibilities on her shoulders and manage everything alone, simply perpetuates this. But I also noticed that Jason called himself lazy. And that was quite interesting. On one hand, I appreciate the candor. On another hand, people who are not behaving as good partners often employ this strategy of admitting something as a way to cleanse themselves of responsibility. If I can be really blunt, I'm not interested in you admitting you're lazy. I'm interested in what you do about it. Molly admits she doesn't trust Jason to be responsible with money because she's never seen it modeled, not in her dad, not in her partners. That's a brutal realization. Neither of them knows how to be responsible with money. They didn't have role models who could teach them. Okay, fine. I hear that. If you have never seen what it looks like to be a responsible, loving partner, then it's unlikely you just trip and fall your way into it. But you've got to be able to learn. There is an infinite amount of cheap and free information online. There's resources everywhere. They had a chance to talk to me. Now it's up to them. I will say, they moved to a cheaper rent without me telling them to. They already have a plan to sell the truck and pay off debt. And when I showed them it's possible to have $1.75 million if they work together, maybe they saw the possibilities. Do you think they can do it? I actually have their follow ups for you right now.

Speaker 2:
[105:21] Hi.

Speaker 3:
[105:22] Hi.

Speaker 2:
[105:24] Hope you're all well. I think we had a couple day emotional hangover after the-

Speaker 3:
[105:30] Yeah, there was a little bit. It was good though.

Speaker 2:
[105:32] It was great. It was a lot.

Speaker 3:
[105:34] My biggest surprise from the conversation I think was how in depth we got about our personal relationship versus just talking about money. I think that was really important and really eye-opening, and very helpful in a lot of ways. That also brought up a lot of things that I wasn't aware of. Just not even money related, but I think it was good.

Speaker 2:
[106:02] That was probably my biggest surprise too, is I didn't expect us to be so vulnerable and honest about bigger picture stuff, that money is a little bit of a reflection of things in our relationship. Yeah, I would agree. Biggest takeaways for me were, I guess, just how urgent it is to start saving. I mean, I knew that cerebrally, but I think just talking about the conversation about retirement, it just made things very real and having numbers of, if we want to get to this certain target for retirement, how much we need to save each month, I think that was a real big takeaway for me and just made it very real.

Speaker 3:
[106:55] I guess also the reality of the fact that we need to really stick to that for a while, and not necessarily buy a house, and just really tighten our expenses, stick to what we learned during the interview.

Speaker 2:
[107:14] I make sense now. I've been thinking about it. It's like, we just have to get this right for a while, and automate the way our finances work, and the way our savings, and our bills, and all that stuff. Get that just so dialed that it will make sense. I feel like we'll be able to come up for air and be like, oh, this is what this feels like, when you're not just in survival mode.

Speaker 3:
[107:40] Right. I think we definitely want to open a joint bank account, and all our money through there first, so we can easily see everything together. To elaborate too much on that.

Speaker 2:
[107:53] That and today is Sunday, so we're doing our first meeting after this video. We're going to do our first financial meeting. We're going to do it on Sundays when our daughter is camping and talk about the stuff, and then moving forward into the week, take what we've talked about into the week, which I think will be super helpful. I wanted to give a little update since we recorded. We've had some steps forward, we've had some setbacks, but overall, I feel we have a lot of forward momentum in our financial life together. The biggest change isn't even really about the numbers, but how we talk about money. And we can have a talk about our finances without feeling judged or getting defensive or honestly just avoiding it all together. And that has been a huge shift for us and has changed our relationship completely. I did lose my job at the beginning of the year, which was a setback, but weirdly, it actually shook us out of a cycle that wasn't working anyways. And I did find a new job recently where I'm making more money. So that has felt like a big win. We have been holding regular money meetings, not perfectly, but consistently enough to matter. We're selling the truck soon, which is going to pay off a huge chunk of debt and credit card debt specifically. And then with the goal of being completely out of credit card debt by June, which is massive for us. I've also took all of my old retirement accounts from past employers and rolled it over into a new account. So it's not just sitting idly anymore. We've created new benchmarks for savings for retirement, which was a huge thing. So that has felt really incredibly relieving. But more than anything, most importantly, we have a plan now. And that alone has felt so huge and honestly life-changing. We're both just so incredibly grateful to Ramit, to this experience, and to the team. I started the Money Coaching program, which has been incredible so far, and we're still feeling the support. And that's just been super helpful for us in our journey. So, yeah, we're just so thankful and yeah, thanks, bye.

Speaker 3:
[110:29] Hi Ramit, I want to share an update since our recording. Things have definitely improved for us. We're having financial meetings much more consistently now. They're far more comfortable, collaborative, and a lot less tense. I genuinely feel like we're on the same team when we talk about money. I've taken on personally more responsibility with our household finances to help lessen burden on my partner. And that shift, I think, has made a meaningful difference. I've been asking more questions so I can be more informed and involved in our finances. And I think that's helped me feel more engaged and accountable. And it's helped us operate more like true partners rather than just avoiding tough conversations. I've increased my retirement contribution by a few percentage points and plan to continue raising it over the next couple of months until I reach at least 15%. Also, I've been using Rocket Money a lot more intentionally, which has really been helpful in tracking spending and staying proactive. I think overall, we're collaborating in a much healthier way and there's more openness, more teamwork, and it feels sustainable. And I think we're really building momentum. So thank you again for this opportunity and thank you so much for spending your time with us. Appreciate it.

Speaker 1:
[112:01] Listen up. If you want my help with your specific money questions, there are only two ways to get it. First, you can apply to be on this podcast at iwt.com/apply. Or second, you can join my Money Coaching program instantly at iwt.com/moneycoaching. In that program, you get access to live virtual events, monthly group coaching calls, live Q&A's and an amazing, huge community of other people like you. Check it out at iwt.com/moneycoaching.