transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Instagram Teen Accounts have automatic protections for what teens see and who can contact them. Plus, time management tools. And Instagram will continue adding built-in safety features to help create age-appropriate experiences. Learn more about Teen Accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.

Speaker 2:
[00:30] I will die on this hill. I do not think a married man or woman should-

Speaker 3:
[00:33] We need to knock this off. You're Kathy, you're a Christian. This is exactly how you should be as a wife, as a mother.

Speaker 2:
[00:38] Or if you're homeschooling to look down on people that aren't.

Speaker 3:
[00:40] Yeah. Oh, should we talk about the socialization with homeschool? 100 percent. Everyone freaks out about that. I don't want people to look at me and think that's the only way you can homeschool. He was not getting paid and I was like, this is awful timing for me to get pregnant, but oh my goodness, does the Lord provide. People are like, how do you even have time to have seven kids? You catch my drift. I'm a little TMI, but we.

Speaker 2:
[00:58] How do you keep the romance and spark alive in your marriage while raising littles?

Speaker 3:
[01:01] Okay, this is a super hot take and I'm going to upset people.

Speaker 2:
[01:08] Chrissy Horton, welcome back to the podcast.

Speaker 3:
[01:10] Thank you, I love being here.

Speaker 2:
[01:11] One of my favorites of all favorites. And now we're like a few weeks out, right?

Speaker 3:
[01:16] Yeah, I'm very close.

Speaker 2:
[01:17] Baby boy is on his way.

Speaker 3:
[01:18] Yes, very pregnant.

Speaker 2:
[01:20] How are you feeling?

Speaker 3:
[01:22] Oh, I mean, flip that one guy. I am though. Sorry, I'm waddling everywhere. Like I have the huge babies. So it's it's a little bit of physical challenge for me in the last few weeks. I have six more weeks, but I could I be down if he if he came today.

Speaker 2:
[01:44] Did the other ones come early?

Speaker 3:
[01:45] No, none of them have. They all go to like 42 weeks. Probably why they're so big.

Speaker 2:
[01:49] Six to eight weeks.

Speaker 3:
[01:51] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:
[01:53] Six weeks.

Speaker 3:
[01:54] Oh yeah, I'm home and it's it's. I'm waddling.

Speaker 2:
[01:59] You look beautiful.

Speaker 3:
[02:00] Oh well, thank you.

Speaker 2:
[02:01] I'm so glad you're here.

Speaker 3:
[02:02] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[02:03] So we got a lot of questions in about topics for today. One of the big things we're going to do is homeschooling and then also to talk more about your story, marital intimacy. There's so much there to unpack. So excited to dive in.

Speaker 3:
[02:16] But before we get into everything, you publicly announced that you had a miscarriage. And I think if you're comfortable with it, I know you mentioned wanting to talk about a little bit on the show. And so before we dive into it, I just wanted to see how you're doing.

Speaker 1:
[02:29] Thanks, Chrissy.

Speaker 2:
[02:31] Thank you. I am, by God's grace, we're doing great. And this is our second miscarriage. So between Peter and Leo, we had a miscarriage a few years ago. And it's just, it's never going to be easy to lose a baby even very early on. Because this is a human being that you is part of your family. This is your son or your daughter. I have a sense it was a boy. We don't know for sure. And it was very unexpected, of course. I think few people expect it. Although maybe people start fearing miscarriage if they've had multiple. Right. I was actually at the Live Action Young Leaders Summit here in SoCal. And it was a big event, our biggest event yet. It was going great. I just gave my opening talk. And then that's when, and I was actually thinking like, I want to share that I'm pregnant right now. But I was like, it's a little early. I'm going to tell more people individually because a lot of the speakers were close friends of mine that were speaking there. And so I was like, I'm going to wait a little bit, even though I'm the type that as soon as you're pregnant, you just want to tell everybody. I mean, I hadn't even told you, there's a ton of people I hadn't told.

Speaker 3:
[03:37] But it's just joyous news. It's like whoever has ears to hear.

Speaker 2:
[03:40] Yes, this is a new life, it's so exciting. And then that day started the miscarriage symptoms. That day? Like pretty hardcore, so I had to leave the event. And there was hope still that this wasn't going to be a miscarriage. And I was hopeful that, you know, I had bled a little bit with another pregnancy. I've had other friends who have bled. I had a friend recently who was bleeding and actually had twins and lost one, but then the other one was still carrying, she was still carrying the other one. And so I was thinking, okay, well, maybe this is going to be fine. God gave me a lot of peace because I knew God's hand was in it. But then, you know, we found out, confirmed that I got blood work done and met with my amazing doctor and stuff and confirmed that yes, this is a miscarriage. So God gives and he takes. Our children are not our own.

Speaker 3:
[04:28] So a little bit of a personal note. So while I've never suffered a miscarriage, my mom had a stillborn when I was a senior in high school. And be like perfect baby girl. Just I think that I don't know. I think the umbilical cord, something happened with that right before her due date. She still had to give birth. And I remember asking, like talking to my mom and I'm like, what, what can we do? What can we do during a time of loss like this? You know, doesn't make any sense. Right. And she's like, I need prayers. I'm having a hard time praying. I'm having a hard time feeling close to God at this time. And I need prayers. And so I think and we have in our group at church, we have when we find out a woman is miscarried, we do a spiritual bouquet.

Speaker 2:
[05:14] How beautiful.

Speaker 3:
[05:15] And so I'm just going to ask everyone listening, like cover Lila in prayers, please.

Speaker 2:
[05:19] So beautiful.

Speaker 3:
[05:20] It can be a hard time. And it's hard. It's so it's so hard when we're we don't understand God's reasoning. And I can see being a very hard time to lean on him. And we need to lean on him the most. But it's very hard. And so I just ask everyone covers Lila and her family in prayers during this time.

Speaker 2:
[05:38] Thank you, Chrissy.

Speaker 3:
[05:39] Is there anything you want to share with other women experiencing this? Because it's a question I get a lot on my channel. And I honestly I feel guilty. Like, I don't know why I've been blessed the way I've been blessed. And so I don't feel I don't know what I can say through any of this, but I get this question so much.

Speaker 2:
[06:02] I got so many messages. Well, first on the prayer thing, I felt tangibly the prayers.

Speaker 3:
[06:09] Oh, good.

Speaker 2:
[06:10] When we were experiencing the miscarriage last week now, so it's completed. And I felt tangibly the prayers. And those meant the world to me. So prayer is real. God hears our prayers. Grace of God is real. And the prayers do matter. So thank you to everybody who has prayed and thank you for asking even more prayers. Like we all need prayers. Yeah, I think there's a lot of mystery around miscarriages. And like sometimes it seems like they're unspoken. I even had a person respond somewhere and saying, why are you talking about this publicly? Miscarriages happen all the time. You're just trying to get attention or something like this. And I was like, I'm thanking people for their prayers. And yeah, I'm asking. It's okay. That's just one comment out of, there were way more positive comments than negative. The reason I'm saying that though, is that is a thing where we don't really value these lives enough and we expect women or even dads to not think it's a big deal. And I'm not saying that you have to like sob and cry your heart out with the miscare. Like you're going to grieve the way you grieve because every woman and man will handle it differently. But I think because our society cheapens life, we don't value unborn babies enough. And so there's this lack of appreciation for a new life that's unborn and a lack of mourning for lives that are lost. Obviously, with abortion, 100%, and then it can be the case with miscarriage. So yeah, I was surprised by how many people reached out, maybe not surprised, but I was impressed by how many people reached out and shared that they had just gone through a miscarriage or they were, you know, they've had a miscarriage in the past. And I think the thing I keep coming back to in my mind whenever words come out of my mouth about miscarriage is our children are not our own. We're not promised children. We're not owed children. What we're promised and gifted with and blessed with is like the everlasting, immense love of God, which fills the deepest longings of the human heart. And a child is like God's love incarnate, in my opinion. Like they're just perfection. Children are just heaven sent. But we're also not promised a child. And then if you were given a child, that child may be taken. And I think about the Kims. Paul Kim and his beautiful wife, and they just lost their five-year-old son, Micah. I was actually just texting with him earlier today because...

Speaker 3:
[08:34] I pray for them every day.

Speaker 2:
[08:37] And when I was having the miscarriage, Leo, our middle son, who's four, he was really sick. And we were concerned at one point we had to hospitalize him. And I was thinking about Micah because I was like, I think Micah just had a flu. And then it just went from there. They lost him within just hours, you know, days, really. And I was just thinking like God gives and God takes. And we can clench like this to our children, to our whatever the thing is that we prize, or we can just hold it knowing that the Lord will take it as He pleases. And to know that that's not the end, because the other thing, there's heaven. We're made for heaven. And so we talked to, I talked to our kids, Joe and I talked to the kids and we're like, you know, we that we lost the baby, but the baby's in heaven. And so we're going to get to see the baby again someday. And our oldest, he said, I want to go to heaven. And I was like, I do too. Like that, that's our, that's our home.

Speaker 3:
[09:35] That's, that's, can I tell you, I heard this amazing parable. I don't know if you've heard this parable. It was, it's two babies, two twins in the womb, okay. And one twin goes, twin, I'll call them A and B. So baby A goes, I wonder what life is like outside of the womb. And baby B's like, what are you talking about? What could possibly be outside of the womb? He's like, I don't know, maybe we'll like, walk with our feet and eat from our mouths, you know? Baby B's like, eat from our mouths! You know, because I'm vocal cord and everything. And then he goes, and baby A goes, I think we'll get to meet mother. And baby B goes, meet mother? What do you mean meet mother? Mother doesn't exist. Look around. There's no mother here. And he goes, sometimes when I'm quiet, I can hear mom, I can hear her heartbeat, I can hear her talking to us. I hear mother. There's no mother. There's nothing outside the womb, just darkness. And I think it's a really incredible way to teach kids about heaven. And I'm like, that's our time on earth. I'm like, do you remember being in mommy's womb? Like, no. But I think that's the whole point of the parable though, is that our time on earth, like we think for those who don't believe, right? It's like, well, what could be after this? But I don't know. I just thought it was. And so to me that gathered comfort in heaven, right? And with everything with Micah that happened, I was, you know, we've been praying for him. The kids were praying for him. They were really worried. They're like, is he gonna be in heaven without his parents though? And I said, time is different there. It's not like how it is here. I don't, obviously, I don't know. But my thought is...

Speaker 2:
[11:10] There's no loss.

Speaker 3:
[11:11] Yeah, there's no loss. There's no sense of absence. Like they'll be reunited. Like it's not gonna...

Speaker 2:
[11:14] And he is with them. Because I believe, like we believe that there's the veil between heaven and earth. There is a veil, but the veil is one way.

Speaker 3:
[11:22] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[11:22] Like we don't see into heaven the way that heaven can see us because they're outside of time. They're perfected. They're in the presence of God. You know?

Speaker 3:
[11:31] Oh, and the stories they've shared with... Oh, my gosh, it's been incredible.

Speaker 2:
[11:35] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[11:36] Yeah, I think everyone should check out their profiles and the stuff they shared with Micah since he's gone to heaven.

Speaker 2:
[11:42] Yes, and I was texting with Paul, and it was like, yeah, Mike, I believe our little son is in heaven. He's with Micah. He's with our other miscarried baby. He's with all of the miscarried babies. He's with all of the people who've passed before us, and we will see him again. And I think it's hard to grieve someone you never really got to know. And that's where miscarriage is mysterious for people because there's a lot of longing in it. I think especially for people that they miscarry their first baby, they've never had a baby before, and then they lose this baby and they have all this expectation and hope bound up in this baby. But when you don't know them as well, you have to think about what could they have been like? What would have life have been? And that's where it starts to really hurt. You know, that's where you start to feel pain. Like, I'll never know this boy this side of heaven. His siblings won't know him this side of heaven in this more concrete way. And you know, there's this longing for another baby. But then you just put trust in heaven. He's out there. You can ask for his little prayers. I believe that. And he's in perfect joy and happiness. And he's my little saint in heaven. And the Lord has a plan here.

Speaker 3:
[12:55] Yeah. I think one of the things that I find very comforting, and I asked my mom, I was like, is this comforting to you? You know, I want to make sure I'm sensitive with it. But they've only known a world of love. You know, when they're taken young, they've only known love. And now that when they wake up, and especially like Ms. Carriage, stillborn, like they wake up in the Savior's arms. Like, I'm sorry, I don't have more that I can offer. But I know there's so many women who, like you said, think it can be very isolating because we're kind of told, like, it's not a big deal or, and we're not, I think a lot of women are have a trouble, and dads, and dads have a trouble navigating how they're supposed to feel when it comes to this. And I don't think there's any.

Speaker 2:
[13:39] And how to talk about it too. And even talking about how many kids we have, because people often will say, how many kids do you have? And often I'll say three and one in heaven before this baby. And now it's three and two in heaven. So we have five kids. And sometimes people don't know what to do with that, because they think, oh, it feels like trauma dumping, because they're like, I'm sorry you lost babies, I'm so sorry. You know, they're like, because I'm saying, congrats on your three kids. They're like, I'm so sorry you lost two. But it's also very, I think, humanizing and good to even talk like that, because they're just as real as the born children, and they all matter, and we don't really get to know the two, but we will know them more deeply one day, and we can still love them. And it normalizes even talking about more scared to you, which I think is important.

Speaker 3:
[14:27] Since you've been through this twice now, how do you like people showing up for you during this time? What can people learn more to show up for those who are going through this?

Speaker 2:
[14:36] I was so blown away, because I was not really thinking, are people going to show up for me? I wasn't even in that mindset. I was just powering through, because between other kids' work, Leo got super sick in the middle of it. So it was like a crazy, crazy week. But what I was deeply moved by is a bunch of people first of all just messaging me, how are you doing? Checking in. A bunch of friends just offering to bring me meals, which I felt almost embarrassed to take them, because these are friends that have like a million kids themselves. They're very busy moms. But I've actually learned in the last few years, like say yes when someone offers to do something with love for you, even if it's something that you feel like I don't deserve, or it puts them out of their way, because you want to create a relationship of love where you can receive it and give it. So anyways, that was like blowing people sending me flowers, like bringing me flowers, bringing food. The prayers, of course, most importantly, saying I'm praying for you. I'm just talking about it, acknowledging it. All of that has meant a lot. And I think if you know someone who's going through a miscarriage, talking about it, acknowledging it, don't leave them alone. I think that's the big thing. I think when someone's going through something hard, they're going to leave them alone because they're going through something hard. No, no, no. They need you to show up. And saying like, well, what can I do to help? Or saying, let me know if you need something. I would say is not what's best. Get specific, like, hey, can I bring meal over tomorrow night? Or hey, can I come do... I mean, depending on the relationship, can I do your laundry or whatever it is? And then just showing up and doing the thing, as opposed to like putting the ball in their court. Because their court is already full. Like their court is already full of their own stuff they're going through. And the way you can show up and love them is by just literally showing up and doing an act of love. So taking initiative, even if it feels uncomfortable, or like, I don't know if they want this. You can always caveat it with like, if this sounds terrible to you, just let me know, but I want to do this, I'm going to bring you food tomorrow night, or whatever the thing is. And I think that really will make them feel your presence and your love.

Speaker 3:
[16:35] Yeah. Yeah, I think that it goes back to acknowledging this, because we do live in a society that's like, that brushes some of this stuff off. And I think that's incredibly isolating. So I think this acknowledging and letting people mourn the way they want to mourn and grieve. And I guess there's just no right way to do it.

Speaker 2:
[16:54] Yes. And I think it's also we have to celebrate. Like, we mourn together, and we want to celebrate together, and like, your baby is coming. I don't know, you could have a baby shower, Chrissy.

Speaker 3:
[17:03] I've never, I only have had like two out of all the kids.

Speaker 2:
[17:07] Really out of all the kids? Because just busyness, or?

Speaker 3:
[17:10] Yeah, I guess I just, I don't know. I mean, I just never really, I think it all just happened so fast. And I'm like, oh, baby's here.

Speaker 2:
[17:18] We should do a baby shower.

Speaker 3:
[17:20] I don't know, baby's coming really soon. So I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[17:22] Well, it could be right before, it could be right after. I mean, the other kind, depending on how, and that's like, we can talk about it too off camera.

Speaker 3:
[17:28] Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:
[17:28] We should do something to celebrate. But even like that, right? We should just, I think like, what's the point of this life? It's about loving God and other people and helping get souls to heaven by sharing the good news of Jesus Christ. How do you do that practically in family and in community milestones? Events that have to do with human beings, which is what it's all about. And so whether it's a miscarriage or there's a birth, or there's, yeah, a birthday, I'm not saying it has to be some big extravagant, expensive birthday or the person's birthday, or their baptism day, or just like finding opportunities to celebrate the other person. I'm not saying I'm good at this. I want to be good at this is one thing I'm trying to work on because that's really a practical way to live together and show love. And it's sort of a lost art, I feel like, in our culture.

Speaker 3:
[18:12] I think it's on me though, because I've definitely had like my mom and people be like, let's do something for this baby. And I'm like, no, I'm too stressed out. I'm too, yeah. And I just get like, I don't want to put anyone out, but I am really bad at that. Like the people that can we start a meal trainer? I'm like, no, don't do that.

Speaker 2:
[18:28] You didn't do meal trains for your babies?

Speaker 3:
[18:29] Well, sometimes, no. Yeah, usually I try to stay out. Because I just feel bad. And then also for me, I have a hard time keeping up with other people's meal trains. So then I'm like, don't do it for me.

Speaker 2:
[18:39] DoorDash gift cards.

Speaker 3:
[18:40] I know I've been doing that lately. Yeah, I have been doing that lately.

Speaker 2:
[18:45] Yeah, so I'm like, I don't want my food anyways. I know, I'm not a good cook. I have a couple of meals that are good, but a lot of people, they're like, yeah, DoorDash is not like I like to get from my favorite restaurant.

Speaker 3:
[18:54] Yeah, so I am one of those people that's like, I don't feel like I've given enough to you, so please, like, don't, I don't, I don't want to, don't extend it to me. Like, I feel bad.

Speaker 2:
[19:03] But if you let them go first, you feel more of a prompting to go second, you know, and then there's a relationship that happens. Yeah, like, can come from that because this is like a mutual sharing and giving of each other.

Speaker 3:
[19:15] It's true. Something I should work on.

Speaker 2:
[19:17] Yeah, it is.

Speaker 3:
[19:18] Because I love when I can help other people, of course, when the opportunity presents itself. So, people want that, people want to...

Speaker 2:
[19:25] The DoorDash gift cards are a great thing.

Speaker 3:
[19:26] Yeah, I've been doing that one lately.

Speaker 2:
[19:27] If you can do that, if you can trade time for money and say, you know, I can't drop off a meal, but I want to send this gift card.

Speaker 3:
[19:34] I have a hard time cooking for my own family that big. Tim does a lot of it. Tim's like, you just got to tell me when the meal trains are, and I'll cook up a tri-tip and...

Speaker 2:
[19:42] That's so sweet.

Speaker 4:
[19:44] That's so sweet. Let him do it.

Speaker 3:
[19:46] I need to put him in the chat.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
[21:28] The youngest. Oh, this one's one of our bigger age gaps.

Speaker 2:
[21:31] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[21:31] 22 months.

Speaker 2:
[21:32] That's like my smallest age gap. Very big age gap, Chrissy.

Speaker 3:
[21:37] That's like the joke because-

Speaker 2:
[21:39] What's your smallest age gap?

Speaker 3:
[21:40] 15 months, I think.

Speaker 2:
[21:42] So no Irish twins yet.

Speaker 3:
[21:44] No, no, 15 months. But that's the one that was my conviction baby. So I just gave birth to number four. The math might be wrong. Someone's probably going to correct me on this, but I gave birth to number four. He was five months old when I found out I was pregnant with number five. But this was the whole story where I was like, we thought we were done at four. My husband was going to get a vasectomy. And then, you know, my whole journey. Check out that episode because it's a really good one on how we got here. But can you just share just for people who haven't heard this? I don't know if you wanted me to go down that road.

Speaker 2:
[22:18] Just share that part where you're looking into the face of this baby, number five, that's within 15 months of baby number four.

Speaker 3:
[22:27] Just a brief synopsis. My husband, I never thought we'd have a lot of kids, ever, ever. Like we had a very typical young 20s American lifestyle. Like we went to church, but very, what did I call it? Cafeteria Catholics where we picked and choosed and we weren't. Personally, for me, I don't think I knew the faith very well. And so yeah, we got married young, but I contracepted because that's what you're supposed to do, right? You're supposed to build your marriage first. That's what we're told. Like you need to build your marriage. And I'm not necessarily against that, but it was like-

Speaker 2:
[23:02] Against building the marriage, contraception, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[23:05] Obviously, I'm not against building up your marriage. Because I do understand that point, like that's the foundation and all these things. But we had this idea that kids could interfere with that, right? So we were young. I was 23 when I got married, but we were still living it up like young 20s. Had to go to brunch every Saturday, the whole thing. And I had to travel a lot and do all those things. And there's nothing wrong with that, by the way. But it was like, we had the impression that kids would burden us from living our life. So, I contracepted and then I got, the only reason I got off of this, because it's just started messing with me. And I was like, this is, it like just turned a corner. So, I got off of it and lo and behold, I was so naive. I was like, oh, I've been on this so long. I'm not going to get pregnant right away. And I got pregnant right away. And it was bad timing because Tim had just quit like his like normal computer programming job and he started this whole start up that made no sense to me whatsoever. And he was not getting paid. And I was like, this is awful timing for me to get pregnant. But does the Lord provide? Oh my goodness, does the Lord provide? Because there were just opportunities that got presented to him that never would have been presented. It was just amazing because I remember freaking out being like, I was so excited to be pregnant. Don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1:
[24:24] I was like, how are we going to do this?

Speaker 3:
[24:29] So anyways, that's how I ended up getting off contraceptives. And then I never wanted to go back on because they messed with me so bad, so bad. But we used other preventative methods. I still got pregnant on those. Yeah, and so I got pregnant a second time. Anyways, we always knew we wanted four. So at some point, we kind of like let go. And then we had our fourth baby and he's like, okay, that's it. I'm going to get, I'm going to get snipped.

Speaker 2:
[24:54] And I think it's a lot of Christian women and Christian men talking almost casually about like, yeah, I got a vasectomy, got snipped.

Speaker 3:
[25:04] Oh, yeah. Our friends like throw parties about it.

Speaker 2:
[25:06] Yes. Yeah. Like that's a normal thing for Christians to do. And I think in this culture, it is, which is so normal. But we're going to hear, obviously, your next. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[25:15] And, you know, like, yeah, it's just that's just what we thought. Exactly. We just thought that's what you do. You know, and I was like, four kids, especially, because nowadays it's like three kids is like, that's it, you know, and now we had four. So we are good, you know? And so as I'm pregnant with baby number four, this is 2021. So like a post, very new post COVID, not even post, I think it's still very like COVID time, because yeah, I had to wear a mask to birth my baby.

Speaker 2:
[25:44] So messed up.

Speaker 3:
[25:44] I did take it off.

Speaker 2:
[25:45] Me too.

Speaker 3:
[25:46] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[25:46] But while I had a baby in 2021, our middle, and I was, they were like, you gotta have your mask on when you're laboring. Take that mask off.

Speaker 3:
[25:53] Yeah, they're making Tim like COVID test every like hour.

Speaker 2:
[25:56] The indignity of being in like full-on labor, and they're sticking the swab up my nose.

Speaker 3:
[26:02] Yeah. I was like, how dare you?

Speaker 2:
[26:05] I was like, I don't like that.

Speaker 3:
[26:08] Yeah. So yeah, so the very fragile time in the world, right? During that time, we switched parishes, because actually my mom found a parish that had like a home school group. And obviously, we're like very interested in the home schooling during this like COVID, post-COVID time. So she's like, it had a home school ministry. That's what it was. And so we go, and there's, you know, I know I share the story so much, but the Sprinter vans galore. And I'm like, what is going on? Why are so many huge vans here? And lo and behold, these families had eight kids, 12 kids, you know, six kids. And even though I grew up Catholic, I never grew up with a 10. There was like maybe one family in our whole parish who had a lot of kids. And it was so foreign to me. I was like, what is happening? Like, do they not realize it's 2021? Like, why are you having all these kids? It's like, I had so... The comments that I get is total like karma, because I used to say that crap about big families. I had so, I was so judgy. I don't know why I was so judgy.

Speaker 2:
[27:17] Meaning like you thought you would see these big families, this is pre or sort of like, you know, going deeper into the faith, and you would just judge them and think, there's something weird, like there's something irresponsible about being, having so many children. And I think that's the typical judgment on bigger families, is there's something wrong with you, and you are the irresponsible ones by having all these kids.

Speaker 3:
[27:39] Oh yeah, that was me. So whenever I get these comments, I'm like, it's not, I had the same thoughts, you know? I was like, there's no way you can give them enough attention. You only like babies, you only just want babies.

Speaker 2:
[27:52] You're going to parentify the older kids and they're going to be traumatized.

Speaker 3:
[27:57] Oh yeah, never been around big families, like nothing. And I just had all these opinions. So I guess it's my humbling experience right now, living it out online. But so I walked in like, what is going on? Where are these families? And then my mom got to know the women. And so she would host these baby blessings at her house where we go, we pray rosary. Everyone would write little blessing cards to each baby. And I sit down next to some women and I go, how do you guys know when you're done having kids? And these are devout Catholic women. I had no idea. I thought that's a very normal question in our society. And they were so sweet, not judgy at all with me or anything. Like, well, what do you mean? I was like, well, I'm pregnant with baby number four. I think we're done. They're like, oh, each child's such a blessing. Like we really leave that up to God's plan. And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm like having this crisis because I'm like 33 and I'm like, I already have four. I'm like, what are you talking about? And so I start freaking out. These poor women, they never even met me. What do you mean? And I'm like starting to freak out. But they're just like, the Holy Spirit was just working through them. Like, it's okay. Like there's natural family planning. Like you can discern and they're starting to educate me on these things. And I had heard of it, but I had no faith in this. You know, I was like, okay. You know, and so but they're telling me all these things. They're like, there's the Marquette method. There's this and only I'm just freaking out like, oh my gosh, I'm going to have like I'm only 33. And, you know, so I go home to Tim and I'm like, did you know you can not get a vasectomy according to the Catholic faith? And he's like, what are you talking about? Like, you know, let's check the catechism again.

Speaker 2:
[29:36] It must be in there somewhere.

Speaker 3:
[29:37] It's like, I was like, no, this is wrong. And so this is before I'm like into the Catholic faith, like we would just go to church Catholics. That's how we were raised. I was like, this is a problem with religion. It doesn't say in the Bible. And who's making the rules? A bunch of priests with no kids. I was just like, let's prove it wrong. And so he's like, yeah, I'm going to research this because there's no way, right? And so we're diving in trying to find our point of view. Like we're going to prove this 2000 year old institution wrong. You know, like us millennials, we're going to be the ones to do it.

Speaker 2:
[30:11] Almost, we almost did it.

Speaker 3:
[30:14] And so we start diving deep to like validate our point. And that's when we became so convicted, the more and more we learned about God's plan for us and this, you know, being open to life. So we get there mentally together. And I think it's so special for us to go on that journey together. That is very special because they do have a lot of women being like, how do you get your husband on board to have more kids? And this was just a journey that we went through together. I was really against having more. He was, you know, we were just kind of drowning. It was like four under four or something like that, or four under five. So I was like, there's just no way we can do this. And so we become very convicted. But I'm like, well, I'm going to follow this Marquette method to the max. Like, I just need at least some space, right? But I was postpartum, so I didn't have a regular cycle. But I don't know if anyone's familiar with the Marquette method. But it's still pretty good for that, even if you're postpartum, because you're doing ovulation testing every day. You're like, you know, you're peeing on a cup.

Speaker 2:
[31:16] So you were doing that when you got pregnant with number five.

Speaker 3:
[31:18] I had a coach.

Speaker 2:
[31:19] So did you not detect the ovulation spike?

Speaker 3:
[31:22] Let me tell you what happened. Did I share it on that?

Speaker 2:
[31:24] I don't think we did. So this is actually really important information, because I actually was just talking to another guest who came on the show after our interview with Mark Ragnaris. And he was talking about how he was interviewing all of these big Catholic families for his book. And he was talking about how a bunch of them were saying how NFP didn't work. They were claiming in terms of spacing. And anyways, there's a lot that can be said about that, but this is your lived experience with it. So let's, and by the way, I do think NFP is incredible and it absolutely can work, but there is this gray zone of postpartum before your cycles returned where it can be trickier. And that's where you're at in this story.

Speaker 3:
[32:01] And again, I think people really need to understand because people will get on us a lot from that last podcast and they'll be like, oh, we use it as like birth control or whatever. And it's like, we have absolutely have, but we're absolutely allowed to discern it's for spacing.

Speaker 2:
[32:14] And just to be clear, it's impossible to use abstinence as birth control. I know it's impossible because you're not having sex. No. That being said, you can have a contraceptive mentality where you're going into sex with this intention of your heart that says, I don't want children, which is kind of a weird thing to be going into sex during your infertile period. Like, I don't want kids. And that's why we're having, like, that doesn't even make that much sense. But there's nothing wrong ever with consummating your marriage when two are coming together with love and freely, right? And if you choose to consummate it when you're not fertile, there's nothing wrong ever with that. So this idea that it's wrong to do that when you're not fertile because it's birth control is just on its face false. Now you can reject sex during your fertile period intentionally for a long period of time out of selfish reasons, that is possible. But coming together during your infertile period can always be a beautiful thing.

Speaker 3:
[33:10] Right. Yeah. And like for I mean, for me, it's like there's also medical things involved too, where it's like you really should space it out if you can. Like, you know, because there's there I know there's for me, like so like right now, like I have two massive hernias. And it's to the point where you need to you need to get those taken care of. And it's been very painful this entire pregnancy. Like I'm wearing like crazy compression right now. And I have to wear it every day. And it's been incredibly like, I have to get this taken care of, you know. And I'm not saying no to life, but there's going to be a period where I need to end. It's going to require a lot of sacrifice on mine and my husband's part, because I'm going to have, we're going to have to make sure like, I don't get pregnant for a few months, you know. And so, and that...

Speaker 2:
[33:52] Cause you're going to do a surgery? Or what do you need to do?

Speaker 3:
[33:54] I think I have to get surgery. Yeah. And so, I mean, I haven't, I haven't been able to get a scan because I've been pregnant. And so actually the day I was supposed to get a scan for this one, they're like, are you sure you're not pregnant? And I was like, okay, let me call you back. Cause, you know, I've only done the whole NFP tracking once and ever since then I haven't done it. And I took a test and called back, I can't get my CT scan, I'm pregnant. And so, so anyway, so we don't, we haven't, like, we don't know. But any, anyway, and my husband, my husband was on the podcast a few episodes back too. And he talked a lot about how that time of abstinence actually brings us so much closer in such a such a different way. And so I know people, people freak out when they hear that.

Speaker 2:
[34:40] I'm just going to say to you, there was some viral, there have been a lot of viral clips and commentary and stuff and around us having these conversations. And objectively speaking, like you want sex and marriage.

Speaker 3:
[34:50] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[34:50] Sex is absolutely amazing. It's one of the closest ways you can get to heaven with your spouse. The side of like it's a sacrament. Marriage is a sacrament. Sex is this you could say sacramental maybe, but sex is absolutely a part of that sacrament. And it's absolutely amazing. It is truly a taste of heaven. And some of the spiritual writers and greats of the past have written about this ecstasy of being one with God and sex. Like the experience of sex, the side of heaven is this almost foreshadowing of the intense joy that comes from unity with God. Like that's how God designed it to give us almost this foreshadowing of that. That being said, it does not kill you or your spouse to abstain for good reason. It does not. And it should be good reason. And you need to be on the same page. You should not be denying a husband that doesn't understand it is not in line. Like that's not fair to him. Similarly, a wife. I get a lot of stories of the wife wanting sex and the husband being too tired or testosterone issues. So I think there's also this modern day trope of stereotype of, well, the man always wants sex and the woman doesn't want it. I hear a lot of the opposite today, actually, increasingly. So maybe it is more typically that the man will want sex and the woman doesn't, but it does go both ways. And you are meant to be one flesh and come together in that way as often as you can. That being said, to your point, medical reasons, other...

Speaker 3:
[36:20] Postpartum, gosh, I can't believe that was what we went on fire for. Postpartum, you're literally not supposed to.

Speaker 2:
[36:25] Neither of you need sex.

Speaker 3:
[36:26] You need to heal. You have a dinner plate size wound and that needs to heal.

Speaker 2:
[36:30] You don't need sex the way you need air, water, sleep, in order to survive. It is this beautiful thing that is, yes, essential to marriage, but not in the day to day. And so that's... I'll just restate that for the record.

Speaker 3:
[36:44] Yes, we need to restate it.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
[38:34] Yeah. So we're doing the Marquette Method and I don't have a cycle back. So we're going it based off this algorithm that has been proven. I think it's like 95% efficiency. So there's obviously this like five or 3% chance that you can still get pregnant even with perfect use.

Speaker 2:
[38:49] Meaning with the perfect use of doing the ovulation strips and testing. So the way these work for people that maybe aren't familiar, is you get like a huge bag of ovulation strips and you also can get the pregnancy strips too. And you basically test your pee, your urine.

Speaker 3:
[39:03] Every day around the same like within that same window of time.

Speaker 2:
[39:06] And it's usually the morning, right? Morning pee.

Speaker 3:
[39:08] It's like the first pee of the morning. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[39:10] And then you're able to tell based on that, if you have a spike in the hormone that would indicate ovulation.

Speaker 3:
[39:19] Yeah. So, you use, it's like the clear blue monitor. And there's low, high and peak. So, low, the same like low, you're good to go. High is like, okay, like maybe, maybe not. You're getting there though. And peak is like, peak ovulation detected.

Speaker 2:
[39:34] You might be ovulating, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[39:35] And so, but there's also like another algorithm. It's a lot of charting. I mean, it's like this work, man.

Speaker 2:
[39:41] And also, you can have sex when you're low.

Speaker 3:
[39:44] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[39:45] And then you can start peaking or go to middle, like within days. And a sperm has a life cycle of up to five, maybe even more potential days. So there's that reality too. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[39:55] So we're doing the market. I have a coach. I'm doing perfect use. We're charting. We're doing the whole thing. Cause I was freaked out. Like I was like, I cannot have more kids right now. Like this is...

Speaker 2:
[40:04] You felt overwhelmed. I did.

Speaker 3:
[40:05] I felt completely overwhelmed. That's a little sidebar really quick to the moms were like, how are you doing it with six, about to be seven kids? I am so struggling with my two. I'm struggling with one. Like girl, so is I. Every mom who has a lot of kids was right there with you. The first three, especially when they're all so little. Yeah. It is incredibly... And it's your first time doing it. Now, my eldest is 10, right? My two eldest boys are 10 and nine. My daughter, she's six. Even my four year old, it's like I have so much perspective now. Like this season of Littles car seats where everyone's in a car seat, everyone... It's like it is so short. It is so short in the grand scheme of life and the life you're going to have with these beautiful children.

Speaker 2:
[40:55] And you can get through it. You do have the grace to get through it no matter how hard it feels in the moment. Even though it can feel super challenging, it will pass.

Speaker 3:
[41:04] Yeah. And so when all these moms are like, Oh no, like three is killing me. I was right there too. I was right there with you. I thought there's no way I could have any more kids. And this is where I was with four. It was like, there's no way. Like I will not survive, you know, like, but again, the grace of God, like we're not, we're not meant to do these things on our own. And sometimes it's like, God wants us in heaven with him. And how we do that is having a relationship with him. And sometimes he's like, Hey, I need you. You're not supposed to deal with this on your own. Lean on me, lean on me. Let's get closer. And you have to lean on him. And that's what's going to bring you closer to him. And so, so yeah, I mean, it's coincidental, right? Like I don't think I can do this. I'm diving deeper in my faith. And then I get pregnant with number five. So how that one happened was I'm charting and it's low. I'm like where I'm supposed to be on the chart. And you know, things happened that night. And then the next morning I wake up and it says peak, not high, it says peak ovulation detected. I'm like, what? How did it go from low to peak?

Speaker 2:
[42:14] Is that a typical thing that can happen? It's never supposed to, it's always supposed to go to middle and then to high.

Speaker 3:
[42:18] I mean, I guess I don't have enough data on it.

Speaker 2:
[42:20] Did you drink a lot of water the day before? So it was like your urine was extra, the hormone was extra watered down. I don't know if that's.

Speaker 3:
[42:27] I have no idea, but it went from low and like where I'm supposed to be on the chart. And it's a peak. And by the way, I'm postpartum. So I've never even seen a peak ovulation before. So right when I saw that, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm pregnant. And my husband's like, you don't know that. And I was like, I'm pregnant. Oh my gosh, like I'm gonna be pregnant. And lo and behold, I was. And my coach was.

Speaker 2:
[42:50] How old was the baby at this point?

Speaker 3:
[42:52] Four months. Four or five months. Yeah. And I messaged my coach like, hey, I got peak ovulation. And she's like, okay, well, like, you know, let me know in a few weeks if you're pregnant. And then lo and behold, I did. And she's like, the only thing I can think of is that between the time you took the test, where it was low, your first egg of fertilization came about in that like 12 hour span.

Speaker 2:
[43:19] Wait, not the fertilization of the eggs.

Speaker 3:
[43:21] No, no, no, but like the egg ready to be fertilized. So like, as you know, you're postpartum, your eggs are like staying put, right?

Speaker 2:
[43:26] Almost miraculously.

Speaker 3:
[43:27] Yes, like your eggs are put, like, you know, you're not.

Speaker 2:
[43:30] But in that situation, isn't that crazy? Like, that's what's so beautiful. This is, in my viewpoint, what is so beautiful about NFP and Marquette Methods, when there's good reason to use them and you use them, and there's, you know, you discern it, and you have your, you know, prayerfulness with your husband, and you're like, we're doing this for a good reason for spacing, whatever it is. What's so beautiful is if you do follow it, and then you do get pregnant, you know very well, that God wanted this baby. And so that should give you such confidence and peace. God wanted this baby. God will not leave you stranded. He's going to give you the grace to handle it. Yes, there may be chaos and struggles, and it's not your timeline, but God will give you the grace that you need. And he has a very, very beautiful plan.

Speaker 3:
[44:10] Wait, I want you to speak more on this, because a lot of women will say, well, yeah, and so that mentality works when I go back on the pill, or if I get an IUD, because women get pregnant on the pill, women get pregnant with an IUD. So they go, if God really wants me to have a baby, I can contracept, and it will still happen.

Speaker 2:
[44:25] But the difference is contraception is morally wrong, always. That's the difference. So yes, God can still bring beauty out of a morally wrong action. Premarital sex is morally wrong. You can have premarital sex, and then something very beautiful can happen. You can conceive a baby, and that baby is perfect, that baby is purposed, that baby is planned. Like there's no such thing as an unplanned pregnancy. God plans every pregnancy. That doesn't mean the act of premarital sex was okay, but the baby is more than okay. And similarly, contraception, again, if you're not aligned that contraception is immoral, then yeah, you can absolutely rationalize that to nine ways to Sunday. But the reality is, what does contraception do? Contraception innately is designed to break the design. It's designed to break the design. The design is sex brings two people together, and there's a potential to bring life into the world. And if you have sex when you're not fertile, you're not breaking the design. The design is that you're not fertile. But if you have sex when you're fertile, and the contraception is there to stop the pregnancy from happening, you're breaking the design.

Speaker 3:
[45:25] Yeah, you're taking control of it, essentially.

Speaker 2:
[45:27] Yeah, something that's sacred, that belongs to God.

Speaker 3:
[45:29] So even though, yes, he can always intervene, but it's like you're making that point to be like...

Speaker 2:
[45:33] You're putting the plastic in between yourself and your husband, or you're putting the chemical... You're putting either the plastic in between yourself and your husband, or you're putting the latex, or you're putting the chemical, or the hormone adjustment in between you and your husband to try to prevent pregnancy.

Speaker 3:
[45:49] Right. Yeah, so that's just what I get a lot, too.

Speaker 2:
[45:52] I've got it in me, too. But I think it's kind of the postmodern mindset of blurring the lines when it comes to morality. And it's also... We just grew up in it. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[46:02] I mean, we're so contraceptive as a society.

Speaker 2:
[46:04] Most Catholics today are not catechized on this.

Speaker 3:
[46:06] People are like...

Speaker 2:
[46:08] They don't understand why contraception is wrong. They haven't even maybe even fully heard that. The church says, no, you can never use contraception.

Speaker 3:
[46:14] I mean, I'm living proof of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's so... Sorry, I didn't mean to go off course. I just wanted to address that one.

Speaker 2:
[46:22] It's a great point in question.

Speaker 3:
[46:23] And with that, that is what I needed to be convicted in this, because here's the thing, even though we became like, okay, we understand why it's designed this way, we're going to be open to life, we're not going to do any other methods, we're not going to pull out, use condoms, like that convicted us, I was still like, I really don't want to get pregnant. You know what I mean, I was freaking out. So then when I did, that video, we have it, it's one of my most popular videos on YouTube, I think it's like 40 million views of Tim finding out. And he's so shocked, because again, we're doing this method that we're told was so, and it should have worked, it should have worked, but again, what are the chances? And that needed to happen for us to fully go on this journey. And so he's like, no way, and he's like laughing and smiling, and like he's processing. It's a really cute video. But I'm like freaking out behind the camera. You don't even see me. I'm like crying. He's like, it's okay, it's great. It's great. Like, it's not great.

Speaker 1:
[47:27] He's like five months old.

Speaker 3:
[47:29] Like, oh my gosh, we're like drowning already. Like, you know, and then, you think I would not get emotional. I tell the story so much for like, but then he comes.

Speaker 1:
[47:40] The baby. The baby. And it's like, if it was up to me, like you wouldn't have been here.

Speaker 3:
[47:46] That is like the worst thing that could, that could ever be. He's like, it's just, and it was just in that moment, I'm looking at him and it's like to think that we were going to be done. My husband was going to permanently make sure we were done. You know, not, I shouldn't, I didn't mean to phrase it that way. I mean, he was going to get a procedure. And I looked at him and I was like, if we went through with it, like you wouldn't have been here. Like if it was up to us, like if we were doing it the way we thought was what we're supposed to do, like, like he wouldn't have been here. And I'd look at him and I look at him all the time and I'm like, my little conviction baby. You know, he's three now, but it's just like, and that is when I became just so fully open to God's plan. And this is the first time in my life where I've never had to give him something like this. I've lived a very, like, blessed, privileged life. I've never had something in my life where I was like hit rock bottom or, you know, something like, like, what was that cross? What's my cross I had to carry? You know, I've not, I've had some things in my life, but to me, I just never felt like I hit like a low point in life. And not that this was a low point by any means, but I was tested in a way that I've never been tested before. To be like, okay, I give this to you, Lord. I've never had to do that. I've never had anything in my life where I'm like, I give this to you, or maybe I didn't, I just didn't.

Speaker 2:
[49:07] And it really felt like you were stepping out of the boat on the water and you might sink.

Speaker 3:
[49:10] Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2:
[49:11] Because I think it's easy to give lip service of trust to Jesus and God and say, I trust in you, I give you my life, blah, blah, blah. But then there's something that literally is really hard for you for whatever reason, whether it's a trauma, it's a relationship, it's a lack in your life. Something you need that you don't have, whatever it is, it's very hard and it hurts on a daily basis and you feel it. And then to give that to God, to surrender that to God.

Speaker 3:
[49:35] It's like the scariest thing ever. And yeah, and especially living in a world where it's like you were, I had been on contraceptives for a very long time, since college. And so to off of that and like totally be like, and realize that I am very fertile and I can get pregnant very easily, terrifying, but then the baby comes. I don't know what I want. God knows.

Speaker 1:
[50:00] He knows so much more than me.

Speaker 3:
[50:03] And now I have my other baby girl, number six, and now I'm going to have him. And it's like, what's the saying? You never regret the children you have, you only regret the children you don't have. And so I do understand. I hope we have more babies, Chrissy.

Speaker 2:
[50:19] I mean, I've been praying about finding a way to foster and adopt as well. Like we've always, you know, I've always had that on my heart, but we'll see what the Lord does.

Speaker 3:
[50:28] But yes, sorry, I didn't mean to be insensitive with that quote.

Speaker 1:
[50:31] I just meant sensitive at all.

Speaker 2:
[50:32] I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have inserted myself into your beautiful, like comedy. Everybody's saying that.

Speaker 3:
[50:36] But I just, I just meant like, I just meant there's a lot of times where we think like, no, no, no, I'm like, you know, I'm done with kids and I was there too. And I cannot attest to anyone else's family planning and their journey. I don't know what their situation is like whatsoever. So whenever I speak, it's very personal. But for me, it was just like, I thought I knew what I wanted so firmly when it came to our family planning. And God's like, no, you know. And I know Tim and I, when he was on here, we talked about that too, like, because there's some times where it's like, it would be nice to know what the next chapter is, right? Like, wouldn't it be nice to know if we like, OK, we're done having kids. Now we can start planning all these things because the kids will be older. Wouldn't it be so nice? And Tim's like, hey, you think, really? Is that really? You think it would be nice? These are the days, these are the glory days. And again, I don't mean to repeat myself, so I do apologize for people who've watched the other one, but I don't have also this like dread of like, oh, this is the last first steps. This is the last everything. I have to soak it all in because I don't know. And there's such a beauty in life of like, just not knowing what's next.

Speaker 2:
[51:42] And also knowing that what's next is God given and not a consequence of your sin. I mean, again, even God can work through the sin. So it's not to say you're doomed, but you can, like at any point, you can turn away from sin and let God take the wheel, as they say. But when you're actively living life, where in the decisions you're making, you're doing your best to make them under God's authority, there's a freedom in that. Like there is so much freedom in that. And even like with the miscarriage and everything that our family's been through in the last couple of weeks, there's a freedom even in the suffering because I know that God's hand is in it. And that if...

Speaker 3:
[52:19] That's so beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[52:20] As long as I can try my best to follow Him in my own weaknesses, the Lord will make the way. And it may not look like how I expect it. We might not have any more kids. I don't know. I'd love to have at least five or six. That would be amazing. But it's in the Lord's providence. And there's so much peace and freedom for that, in that for us as his daughters.

Speaker 3:
[52:43] Yeah, absolutely. You wear things so beautifully.

Speaker 2:
[52:45] Thanks, Chrissy.

Speaker 3:
[52:46] You too. You have a gift for this. So that's my little story on how we became open to life.

Speaker 2:
[52:52] It's so good.

Speaker 3:
[52:53] Why did we talk about that again?

Speaker 2:
[52:54] We had to. We were meant to talk about it. So I think it was meant to be... Your oldest is 10 or 11?

Speaker 3:
[53:00] My oldest is 10.

Speaker 2:
[53:01] He's 10. My oldest is just turned six. And we're figuring out education. I was homeschooled my entire education, but my parents started this classical part-time homeschool academy that was Choice a Week.

Speaker 3:
[53:15] They started it?

Speaker 2:
[53:16] They started it.

Speaker 3:
[53:17] That's so cool.

Speaker 2:
[53:17] And then when we were in high school, it started being more days we'd like to take community college classes. I had a phenomenal experience. My husband was also homeschooled differently than I was. He didn't really have the co-op experience, et cetera. And then in sixth grade or seventh grade, they bumped him into a school. It was a rough transition. So he has a different experience, but there were some blessings and beauty in it too, and some challenges. And then some of my closest and best friends were homeschooled. Some of them aren't. I have a natural respect for homeschooling because I was homeschooled and my parents were kind of OGs. I think today is very fad. It's almost a fad to homeschool. My parents did it when nobody was in the 90s.

Speaker 3:
[53:53] Oh, they probably thought they were weird.

Speaker 2:
[53:54] Yeah. They helped. They didn't found HSLDA, the Homeschool Legal Defense Association, but they were some of the founding supporters of it. Anyways, so I am very curious about your experience with it. I think my biggest things I am working through right now, and Joe and I are discerning right now, is we have some amazing school options. And we might do school for some period of time and then homeschool in the future or do a mix. Obviously, for the very little ones at our home, we can still do preschool at home, which is pretty simple. Tell me about your experience.

Speaker 3:
[54:32] So this might be a hot take, but I don't think homeschool is for everyone, actually.

Speaker 2:
[54:37] I think it's a good take.

Speaker 3:
[54:39] Yeah, my whole advocacy when it comes to homeschooling is, I just think every child can learn differently, and we just need to provide different routes of education for these children. So I don't like a idea of like every child needs to be in this exact school setting because children learn so differently. I think children should have lots of options. And sometimes they thrive in those school settings. Sometimes they thrive in the charter settings. Sometimes they thrive in this setting. Sometimes they thrive in homeschool. To me, I'm just an advocate for children's education. So I was a preschool teacher before I started having kids. I have an education in early childhood development. So I just, to me, I don't think there's a one size fits all. And that's what I advocate for. And so if your kid is thriving in their current environment, I don't think you should feel pressure to homeschool your child if they're doing well and they're enjoying themselves. Now, I think the big thing with homeschooling, while there's more of it, has been due to a post-COVID world, right? Where there are certain agendas that are being pushed, certain things being pushed in certain curriculums, certain rights being infringed upon. And I think that really, the news is very sensationalized. I think people, everyone assumes every California school is like indoctrinating other kids and all these other things. Some are, some are, but not all. But I also know kids who go to, I know parents who took their kids in schools right by my house. And they're like, none of that's happening at our school. You know? And so it's just like...

Speaker 2:
[56:14] And those are public schools.

Speaker 3:
[56:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[56:15] And so I think it really depends... So you're saying not every public school in California is transing the kids.

Speaker 3:
[56:20] I don't think so. I mean, I guess my kids don't go, so I can't speak of it. I think what's happening is there is curriculums that are, they have to do. There are topics they have to discuss, but it really comes down to who's teaching them and how they're doing it.

Speaker 2:
[56:34] I think it also comes down to the other kids in the classroom. So I think when you're considering school, and I know my parents really thought about this intentionally, there's curriculum, there is the teacher, there is the timetable and schedule, like is this an eight-hour day, a six-hour day, a two-hour class, a one-hour class, a 30-minute, whatever. Then there's the other kids and families. Those are all really key components in when you're discerning what is best for my child. Then there's reality of the financial situation of the family. Where God has placed you, all of that. And you can get creative and often there's way to like, if you really feel like my kid would be best served in this school, you can often get creative. And whether it's financial aid or figuring out, maybe taking on a part-time work from home job or something, figure out a way to make it work. I do think it's very rare that a parent's objectively decide this would be best for my child. And then there's zero way to achieve it. Right. Like God really does work through circumstances. But that being said, I totally agree with what you're saying. I think it will depend on the kid, but you have seven kids, Chrissy. So it's not like you're going to put one kid in this school, kid number two in that school. Kid number three would really be benefited by homeschool. He's going to have a whole homeschool curriculum. Kid number four needs charter. That's typically not how families work.

Speaker 3:
[57:50] Yeah. So that's very true. And so from what I'm gathering, I mean, my kids are so young. That's another thing too. I have a lot of kids, but they're still very young. So, there's times I go to my mom friends who have a lot of kids, and I'm like, how are you doing this? Like, even though I have six, I'm still like, how are you doing this? You have eight, you have nine. And they go, well, my kids are a lot older. You know, like you had all of them within a decade. So it's, I don't, you know, so because of that age, I really, this is why I hesitate to talk about homeschooling too much on my channels, because I'm like, dude, I am so new to this. Like, I am not the authority on this. I don't want you guys to think I'm the authority on this.

Speaker 2:
[58:29] I think people actually are really interested to hear what you're going to say because you're saying you're not the authority on it. So you figured out how to do it without being the authority on it, because that's exactly the reason a lot of moms don't homeschool because they think, I'm not the authority on this. So how can I possibly do this?

Speaker 3:
[58:44] So that's, yeah. So here's, so like you said, the different teaching. So as of right now, everyone's thriving in homeschooling right now, right? But I also-

Speaker 2:
[58:52] What curriculum are you using?

Speaker 3:
[58:53] So I use a bunch. So I don't- I'm not doing like a charter program. I don't use PCA funds. So there's two ways you can go about this, at least in California. You can do like a charter program and you receive funds. These are taxes that you pay into and you receive PCA funds. But with that, you can't just choose whatever curriculum you want. It can't be religious based, right? And so- but with those PCA funds are very helpful because you can buy your curriculum. They usually go for your kids after school sports kind of things like you're, you know, so you can pay for all these experiences for your kids to have. But you are beholden to the rules of it. And you have to meet with someone once a month, prove you're doing all this work and everything like that, which isn't bad at all.

Speaker 2:
[59:38] But they don't mandate a curriculum.

Speaker 3:
[59:40] No. Well, you have to have a curriculum. But yeah, it's not like a blanketed you have to do this.

Speaker 2:
[59:44] But you can, so when you're homeschooling, there are different, like my girlfriend, one of my close friends, she's homeschooling her kids in Maryland.

Speaker 3:
[59:52] Okay, so yeah, very different homeschool laws there.

Speaker 2:
[59:54] Right, but I think the key is she can choose her curriculum. If you're homeschooling, you can choose your curriculum, I think wherever you live, you have the right to do that. And so she has a program which she literally orders it in a box to her home once a month. And there's a lesson plans, there's everything in the box that's just set for her.

Speaker 3:
[60:13] Yeah, I can't speak on the, because I don't do the PCA funds. So I know some of them just go through, like the women, I know they all go through kind of the same charter and stuff. So what I do, it's an affidavit, affidavit, I can't even speak right now, affidavit. And so we're considered like a private school, but I don't school other kids, it's just my own kids.

Speaker 2:
[60:31] You mean that's how you register with the state of California.

Speaker 3:
[60:33] That's how I register with the state.

Speaker 2:
[60:34] You do need to register, is what you're saying, for California.

Speaker 3:
[60:38] Yeah, you register your kids, you put their ages, like there is accountability, you know what I mean? Because I know there's this new push of like, oh, homeschool can, it's dangerous, because you can abuse your kids or these things. And I don't know if you want to get into that. It's like a total infringement on the parents for parental rights.

Speaker 2:
[60:56] A couple quick things on that. There's no data that I've ever seen that says that homeschool families have higher rates of abuse. I think that's just objectively not.

Speaker 3:
[61:03] But what they'll do is they'll take homeschool families that have that and sensationalize them on the news.

Speaker 2:
[61:09] Right, but for every sensationalized story of a homeschool family whose the parents are psychopathic and they torture their kids or something, that exists unfortunately in the public school system. It exists in the private school system and they can say, well, it's more easy to maybe get away with it if you don't have these accountability check-ins.

Speaker 3:
[61:27] Mandatory report.

Speaker 2:
[61:28] Yes, I have not seen evidence that's shown that children that are in school are safer. There's also a rate of sexual abuse that happens in school, including in public school, that's actually scarily high, that a lot of people are not aware of. So I think at the end of the day, it comes down to what is God calling your family to? And in terms of parental rights, parents have the right to educate their kids. It's not just the right, they have the responsibility to educate their kids. And that's not something that government agencies get to do.

Speaker 3:
[61:59] Yeah, so that actually brings us to another point. People will say like, well, how are you qualified? Teachers go to school for years to teach your kids and you don't go to any school, you know, you technically don't need, you don't technically need a college degree to teach your own kids, right? I mean, I have a college degree, my husband has a master's degree, but they're saying like, what makes you so qualified? I'm like, okay, let's take this down to a very basic level. You expect your eight year old to know this stuff? Do you think you as a 30 year old parent should be able to know this stuff, too? You know what I mean? So I'm like, let's just take it slow.

Speaker 2:
[62:31] It's not calculus yet.

Speaker 3:
[62:33] Let's take it to elementary. But even then, even if it is, you expect your 16 year old to know this, like you can't get to, you know what I'm saying? And so it's like, yeah, so a part of me is like, okay, let's just take it one step at a time. We're talking elementary school here. Like, you can very much know this stuff. And so let's go back to the teacher argument. I love teachers. And sometimes people think like, oh, like because you homeschool or something, like you're like anti-teacher or whatever. I love teachers. I think there are so many means teachers. I have friends who are teachers who are incredible. What they go to school for though, isn't like, oh, they are the masters of knowing second-grade geography, right? Like they go to school because teaching is such an art. It's such an art to be able to teach 30 kids in your classroom and like learn all the different teaching.

Speaker 2:
[63:22] And the crowd control.

Speaker 3:
[63:23] Yeah, there is so much. And so that, from my understanding, of course they're educated in the topics, but you could have a teacher teaching fourth grade one year and then teaching third grade the next year. You can have a teacher that's teaching geography one year, but then they're teaching fourth grade science. And so it's not like they have a master's degree on second grade. They don't need a master's degree in second grade science. You know, you don't need to go to school that long for that particular level and topic. What teachers do is they know how to teach a class. You don't need those skills when you're one on one with your kid, you know, or two or three, yeah, but when you're with your own children, you know what makes them tick. And you, especially if you do homeschooling from the start and you start to learn like how they process things. So this idea of like, you're not qualified to teach your kids.

Speaker 2:
[64:18] I don't buy that at all.

Speaker 3:
[64:19] Yeah, I just, I'm like.

Speaker 2:
[64:21] The one thing I do buy a little bit is if you're not willing to create routine and stick to it, then I do think that's a problem because your kids do deserve a basic routine and a basic, you know, to ensure that you're checking off like important boxes. Now, I don't know that I've ever seen, I don't know personally of a homeschool family that like failed to teach their kids to read when they needed to or things like this. Theoretically, that could happen, I guess. I'm sure it probably has happened. But the point is, if you're going to homeschool, it's less about like, I have the qualifications and a teacher certification. It's more about I have the will, the desire, and I'm going to put in the work to do this beautiful process with my child. Even if it's not perfect or it looks like everybody else's, but I'm going, I have the will, I have the desire, I have a sense of calling, and I'm going to put in the work.

Speaker 3:
[65:10] I don't know why you would homeschool if you're not interested in that.

Speaker 2:
[65:12] Right.

Speaker 3:
[65:13] It'd be easier to send them to school.

Speaker 2:
[65:14] I think there's a lot of people who just really fear school. And so it's less about a desire to homeschool and more about I don't want that.

Speaker 3:
[65:24] Okay, gotcha, gotcha. There are so many things out there now, especially in this day and age with the internet and being able to meet up and stuff. So what your parents did, my mom did homeschool my youngest sister, who's 16 years younger than me. I went to public school, but she's 16 years younger than me, my mom homeschooled her. I mean, that was like in the age of the internet too. So that's, I'm not even going to count her in that. But the ones who did it like in the 90s, like there was a lot less resources, right? But now it's like, I mean, your kids could take a college course online and there's so many options out there. Right now, we're developing a pod. So we're actually hiring a teacher. He was this teacher for 25 years, like won awards, and he's going to do a STEM class. And so I'm going to find other homeschool families. I'm going to host it at our house. And he's going to come in and it's going to be like four hours a day. And they're going to do all these cool, oh, no, no, no, no, no, just once a week. But you can do that. So you could have a pod where you do hire a teacher. Maybe you're like science.

Speaker 2:
[66:22] This is for the sciences.

Speaker 3:
[66:24] Yeah. Maybe you're like, oh, gosh, even though you can totally learn how to do those things, especially at the elementary level, you might just be like, that's a lot. I want them to have a really hands-on experimental class where they can do different experiments and see things. And I just don't think I can provide that for them. So there are these options where parents get together and they pay a teacher. These teachers are retired, but they still love teaching, right? Or maybe some left because a lot of teachers are having issues with districts right now because of the way these.

Speaker 2:
[66:51] Or they didn't want to get the vaccine.

Speaker 3:
[66:53] Or these higher-ups are pushing these curriculums that they're not for.

Speaker 2:
[66:58] I know of a teacher that they were going to be forced to take the COVID Vax during COVID and they didn't want to do it. And so they lost their job, but now they're basically doing something along the lines of what you're describing. So for you guys, what's the curriculum? So you said it's no, like I said, but are there multiple ones that you have used?

Speaker 3:
[67:17] I think one that's a really good, this is not sponsored obviously or anything. We use the good and the beautiful. It's a very popular homeschool curriculum.

Speaker 2:
[67:24] I've actually ordered that for the kinder program, I think.

Speaker 3:
[67:25] Yeah, it's very popular. They have a bunch of different grade levels. I love it. I think it's, there are a lot of people out there who have things to say about it. So far, it has worked great.

Speaker 2:
[67:36] It's Mormon, right?

Speaker 3:
[67:37] No, it's not. So the creator is LDS.

Speaker 2:
[67:40] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[67:41] I have been using it for years, and there is not one time where I have been like, if I didn't know, if I didn't have that knowledge. So yeah, so right now I'm doing, so again, my kids are young. This is why I don't talk about a lot because I have young kids. So my kid, so and I started them later. So some of my kids have a September birthday, and I kind of just follow the district with where they should be. And I do use the district, by the way, like I'll be like, okay, like where should my second grader be academically? You know, I definitely use things to show. And then I use these curriculums that are The Good and Beautiful, like, yeah, it was started by a member of the LES Church, but like she has like great teachers who help her do it.

Speaker 2:
[68:16] And I've heard great things, by the way. I don't mean to discourage the Good and Beautiful.

Speaker 3:
[68:19] But I think a lot of Catholics will be like.

Speaker 2:
[68:21] Well, and evangelicals, I heard them say, oh, you know, that's one thing to be mindful of. But what you're saying is, especially for the earlier grades, oh, I think it's wonderful. It's wonderful.

Speaker 3:
[68:30] It's like God created patterns. If you go outside, you'll see certain patterns in this. Let's learn about patterns, you know? And it's like, so if you are using PCA funds, you can't use the good and the beautiful, because it will make, it's barely, but it's like...

Speaker 2:
[68:45] By the way, I'll just make a like register my complaint formally with the state of California, among many other issues. And I love my state, and I have such hope for this state. And I know that there will be renewal in the state of California. But this whole thing of, we're going to let you use state funds to get educational resources for your child. But if they are faith based, you are restricted from faith funds. What they are really saying is we will only fund atheistic or agnostic content. Because every bit of educational content has a worldview. The worldview either acknowledges the creator in heaven and a moral path, or it rejects it. And so what it's actually doing is it's subsidizing secularism. That's what it's doing. There is a religion for the state of California, and it's secularism. And by that, I mean godless, pro-abortion, usually more left-leaning, maybe even far left, pretty woke, not the good woke, the bad woke. And they're saying, well, if the curriculum ultimately is that, and it doesn't have any bit of god in it, then it's okay. So I just think it's so, this idea of the separation of church and state, which is not in the consultation, by the way, it's kind of a concept that's discussed by the founding fathers, etc. But the idea is to protect the church from the state, so that the church doesn't say that, or the state doesn't say that you are not allowed to practice your religion. But there was never anything in our founding that said you can't bring god into the capital building or you can't bring god into politics. We invoke the name of god in our founding documents. So anyways, I'll get off the soapbox.

Speaker 3:
[70:19] No, amen. Yeah, so the families I know that use PCA funds, that use these funds, they have a basic curriculum, but they still will do religious curriculum. It's just they pay for it with their own money. And so, and they just, they still do it. They just don't, that's not what they use the funds for. So it's not like you can't do it. It's just when you, whatever funds you're using have to be for that.

Speaker 2:
[70:43] So what grades are you teaching?

Speaker 3:
[70:44] So right now, oh yeah, so because they have that September, a few of them have that September date. I was always, ever since I was a preschool teacher, advocated to, if you can, if it's beneficial for the child. But in most cases, it seemed to benefit the child more if they were older in their grade rather than being the youngest one. So with that September birthday, they could have been the youngest in the class or they can be the oldest. So I am like, I say oldest because sometimes when they're the youngest, they might not, like your brain's processing and you don't want them to get in the sense of like...

Speaker 2:
[71:15] Oh no, I agree with some things. For some reason in my mind, it was flipped, but yes, you want, especially with the boy I've heard, you want them to be on the younger side in the class, or excuse me, on the older side of the class.

Speaker 3:
[71:25] Yeah, so my 10 year old is in fourth grade, because I go again...

Speaker 2:
[71:30] So you got a fourth grader? Do you have a third grader?

Speaker 3:
[71:33] And then my daughter, who's that September birthday, she could technically be in first grade, but again, I was like...

Speaker 2:
[71:38] And she's six right now? She's six, so she's in kinder. And so she's in kinder, okay. And you're using for fourth, third and kinder?

Speaker 3:
[71:45] And preschool, because I teach preschool too.

Speaker 2:
[71:46] You really have an age gap between kinder and third?

Speaker 3:
[71:50] He's like in the middle, he's nine. So she's nine and six, but she's going to be turning seven.

Speaker 2:
[71:54] I see. So it could be first and third.

Speaker 3:
[71:56] Yeah, so it's like a 24, 28 months, or not 24 months.

Speaker 2:
[71:59] Which is a smaller gap.

Speaker 3:
[72:00] Or 20. I don't know what their age gap. I had three under three at one point with them. So it's just where their birthdays fall right now.

Speaker 2:
[72:06] But the bottom line is you're using the Good and Beautiful for those three grades.

Speaker 3:
[72:09] Yeah, but for my fourth grader, I did change up his math. So now he's using...

Speaker 2:
[72:15] Saxon?

Speaker 3:
[72:16] No, I can't think of the name off the top of my head.

Speaker 2:
[72:19] We text him right now and ask what it is, because people listening are going to want to know what it is.

Speaker 3:
[72:23] Hey, I'm on the show right now. But what is the math curriculum that our eldest uses? Math with confidence, that's right.

Speaker 2:
[72:33] Math with confidence.

Speaker 3:
[72:34] I love you. Bye.

Speaker 2:
[72:35] Did you ever try Saxon?

Speaker 3:
[72:37] No, I haven't.

Speaker 2:
[72:37] That's what I did growing up.

Speaker 3:
[72:38] I haven't tried it.

Speaker 2:
[72:39] I loved it.

Speaker 3:
[72:40] Yeah, I haven't tried it. I've been... we've just been doing... The kids have been thriving with what we've been using. So and then I'll do other things too. So it's not just Good and the Beautiful. Sometimes I did a US. Geography with... I forgot the name of that one. I haven't done it again. But I've used OutSchool, which is online. And you can do live online classes or you can do pre-recorded. So we did... So for US. Geography, I wanted to specifically focus on that. So I found curriculums for like second grade US. Geography and I would purchase those.

Speaker 2:
[73:13] But bottom line is, it sounds like you're saying, I mean, a few other things like Tim is less focused on work right now. He's still working, but he's doing a lot of homeschooling. You're obviously doing some work with content creation and all of your platforms and stuff. So, but you're both home together. So that you've been able to create a rhythm together as a couple where it's not like you're just on your own all day. To handle homeschooling.

Speaker 3:
[73:38] But it used to be that way. Because I don't want people to think, oh, that's how she does it because her husband's home, because that's not an option for a lot of people. And so it's hard where I am with this content creation because I'm in this phase of life and people forget, like I had this whole other phase before he was home, you know, and I did have four kids and I was doing this. And my youngest was like in first grade and I was homeschooling him and I was a preschool teacher. So I'm still like preschool is really important to me, especially because I was a preschool teacher. So I do homeschool with the preschooler too. And so I don't want people to look at me and think, that's the only way you can homeschool, right? As if you're both home and all these things.

Speaker 2:
[74:19] Because that's absolutely not true. How did you do it when Tim was not home? He's working a lot.

Speaker 3:
[74:25] Pregnant, have a baby, toddler, you're trying to teach.

Speaker 2:
[74:27] You had four kids under, I mean, at this point, under six or seven. You're doing first grade, you're doing kinder and you're doing preschool. Yeah. How did you do that?

Speaker 3:
[74:38] Yeah. So, well, they're younger too, so it's not as rigid. That's another thing. People think homeschool needs to replicate public school, meaning however long kids are in school, full time school. Yeah, you need six hours a day to do it. I'm like, the reason why it's six hours, one, it kind of has to match parents' work schedule a little bit. Two, there's a lot more kids. You have to line up. You got recess. You have lunch. You have all these little breaks, which you need to do. But again, you have a lot more kids. So there's a lot more classroom management. And so the day needs to be longer. And it's also time for socialization and all these other things. When you homeschool, you can get those academics done quickly, especially when they're young. You do not need three hours to teach a first grade curriculum every single day when you're one-on-one with your child, is what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2:
[75:31] What would you say the rule of thumb is for first grade? One hour is A?

Speaker 3:
[75:35] See, I don't know, there is actually some like, if you Google it, there are like homeschoolers who put this out.

Speaker 2:
[75:39] I've heard some people say one and a half to two hours a day for first grade, and then it goes up by half an hour to an hour for every grade.

Speaker 3:
[75:46] That sounds about right to me, because you have to remember, it's usually, even if you have all these other little kids around you, when it comes, you're usually one-on-one with the child. Now, I'm not saying it's one-on-one and there's not a toddler in your lap, but when you're teaching...

Speaker 2:
[75:59] Or you have to take a break to go to the potty and another child.

Speaker 3:
[76:02] Yeah, I'm sitting down with that child. And so there was actually this teacher who, I need to find this for more solidified proof, but he taught this class, he taught this curriculum. The test comes six weeks later, no one did well. And he's like, okay, that's on me. Why did no one do well? So then he went and just did one-on-one with the kids over six weeks. Like he changed his schedule to like do one-on-one and everyone got an A, it was the same test.

Speaker 2:
[76:29] Meaning he would let the other kids just play in the classroom and he would be a one-on-one.

Speaker 3:
[76:32] I don't know if it was like after school or something. I see, I don't know the logistics of it.

Speaker 2:
[76:36] Right, they need one-on-one attention.

Speaker 3:
[76:37] But he did this study basically, where it was like, I'm going to take the same curriculum, the same test, teach it in this setting. No one did well. Okay, so now I'm going to go one-on-one with each student. And then they all did perfectly fine. And that, and I'm not, and again, there are some kids who thrive in that classroom setting. So to me, I'm not, I'm not saying like, well, one-on-one is the only way to go. And you're not going to get one-on-one in life. So you need to like, prepare them for life too. But when they're young, I don't like the idea like you need to prepare them for the real world at six years old. I'm like, no, I don't. That's my job to protect them from this stuff at this age. You know? So anyway, but when you do one-on-one, you get through things a lot quicker because it's based on where they're at. You know, you don't have a, I don't know, you don't have to like stop and like teach like this other kid who might learn differently, you know? And so, I mean, you will have to with your other kids, but you get what I'm saying, it's not 30 of them. So yeah, there's this misconception of like, I can't home school because I don't, that's a lot of hours. I'm like, oh no, no, no, no. And there's so many ways you can home school. And I think we think like sitting down at a desk, which is important sometimes. But I just saw this video and I thought it was really enlightening. This mom has a trampoline park membership. And they go to trampoline park every day. She brings her whole curriculum. It's, she doesn't have as many kids as I have. I think she had three kids. But she'd sit down, they go jump around, get all their energy out, and they'd be tired. They'd be cool. They have their drinks of water, their electrolytes. They sit down, they'd be like, let's do our math lesson. They do their math lesson. And now it took probably about like 20, 30 minutes to do the math lesson. Then they're off jumping again. And then she could like rotate them too.

Speaker 2:
[78:09] She literally spends the whole day.

Speaker 3:
[78:10] Yeah, she could rotate them. But it was like, it's like three to four hours though. You know, it's not six hours. And so there's so many different methods you can do this. Like it doesn't all have to be like, in a line, at a desk.

Speaker 2:
[78:23] And they need a lot of, I think the kids need a lot of like outdoor time. They need a lot of playtime. They need a lot of physical exercise time.

Speaker 3:
[78:29] It helps their brain so much.

Speaker 2:
[78:30] But they also do need a level of routine.

Speaker 3:
[78:32] Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[78:34] I think everything you're saying, it sounds very attainable, which I think is the message for people listening. If you feel called to it, you need to, I think very important, have both spouses be aligned. You know, maybe one spouse will be more hesitant than the other, but really take a lot of time to talk through it, pray through it, look at the homeschool resources that exist. We had Sarah Mackenzie on the podcast.

Speaker 3:
[78:56] She's like a celebrity of the homeschool.

Speaker 2:
[78:57] She talks about the read-aloud revival. And she shared about it and how attainable it is. So there are tons of resources out there. But I think what you were saying earlier is good. And this is what Joe and I are discerning is, I think I kind of come from the background of like, well, of course I would homeschool. It's wrong not to homeschool. Not like morally wrong, but why wouldn't you homeschool? Homeschooling is objectively the best. That's kind of the world I come from. And realizing that, first of all, the kinds of schools that were available to my parents, and this is one of the reasons I chose to homeschool, were not good options. And there can be really phenomenal schools that are really in line with your values. The community is great. The families are great. You know the families. That can be a wonderful option for your child. And again, every child is different too. So I would say, I would argue, it all depends on how it's done. Like you were saying, I mean, I'm not even arguing this. We're in a full agreement on this. And it really is not one size fits all.

Speaker 3:
[79:58] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's what you're saying. You feel like this pressure, maybe pressure to homeschool just from what you were brought up.

Speaker 2:
[80:03] For nobody, by the way. There's not a single person pressuring me.

Speaker 3:
[80:06] The pressure you're putting yourself on yourself.

Speaker 2:
[80:08] It's more of my internal dialogue of, I was so blessed by homeschooling. I had these amazing experiences homeschooling. I mean, I started Live Action in part because I had all of this independent study time and time to pursue things that I felt passionate about. I did homeschool debate and speech and all of that. But I think the lie is, well, those things are just impossible in any other schools setting, which I don't think is actually true.

Speaker 3:
[80:33] There's so many different schools too. I mean, maybe in a public school setting, it would be harder, but there's tons of charter private schools that I think even offer like this independent time for you to do research and do venture on these projects, too. So I do think there might even be this movement, though, for Christian women to feel like that's what they're supposed to do.

Speaker 2:
[80:53] Yes, 100%.

Speaker 3:
[80:54] And again, it comes like, we need to knock this off. We need to knock it off like, oh, well, if you're Catholic or you're a Christian or you're all these things, this is exactly how you should be as a wife, as a mother. It's like, whoa.

Speaker 2:
[81:04] Or if you're homeschooling to look down on people that aren't. So I think that if you're not homeschooling, somehow to look down on homeschooling, there's a lot of gray area, an area for the prudence of the parents.

Speaker 3:
[81:16] Yeah. Like I said, I'm an advocate for making sure the child just has a pathway to learn. And whether it's that in this certain school or in homeschooling, it's just my belief is there's just not a one size fits all. So let's not all box them into this type of schooling or box them into that type of schooling.

Speaker 2:
[81:32] I will say, I think for younger kids, I also think it is not ideal to have a program that they're in six plus hours every day all week.

Speaker 3:
[81:42] Yeah. I mean, when they're little, it's if you can, like definitely.

Speaker 2:
[81:46] Yeah. So I think stay home with them if you can. Typically speaking, that is not ideal in my view. Now, I'm not saying that some kids are not very benefited by it, etc. But first of all, up until the age of five, I'm not a big preschool person. I know you were a preschool teacher, but our family, I don't love daycare, we don't love preschool. I'm not saying that they cannot ever be as good situations, by the way. We've had some hot debate on this show, and had different experts on weighing in on these things. I think, again, depends on the child, depends on the circumstances of the family. Generally speaking, though, I think kids are designed to thrive in close attachment to their, ideally, family, right? Or a surrogate person, that's another kind of family member, that they can all be connected and close, and they need a strong bond with mom and dad. They need lots of quality and quantity time. And putting them kind of in an institution for 40 hours a week, again, that doesn't happen frequently, but that does happen, is not ideal. I think it's okay to say that.

Speaker 3:
[82:47] Yeah, it's not ideal, but it doesn't. But yeah, like you said, circumstances. So like my mom, like, you know, my dad left when I was three. My sister was one. My mom was young. She was like 27 with her two babies. That's a great, he's a great story, by the way. Like when he found God, he-

Speaker 2:
[83:02] You haven't shared this on the show yet.

Speaker 3:
[83:03] Yeah, but he's a great story because, because I don't want to make him sound like a bad guy. Like he made some bad choices back then, but he is a great example of like finding Jesus dying to self, like dying to self and following the way Christ wants you to because he just did like a 180 as a dad.

Speaker 2:
[83:19] Wait, so tell me what happened. He leaves you guys, you're one in three.

Speaker 3:
[83:22] Yeah, one in three. My mom's like 27.

Speaker 2:
[83:25] Where does he go?

Speaker 3:
[83:26] With the other woman. I love you dad. Sorry, I don't give a f***.

Speaker 2:
[83:32] Did he come back?

Speaker 3:
[83:33] It was an emotional affair, I will say. It wasn't physical, it was an emotional affair. And he was still active in our lives though.

Speaker 2:
[83:41] By the way, can we just put a little note in that? That's a topic, emotional affairs.

Speaker 3:
[83:46] Yeah, that is a topic.

Speaker 2:
[83:47] I could talk about that. But finish the story and then we're going to get to that.

Speaker 3:
[83:52] He's very aware. You know what I mean? He doesn't try to justify it. He was like, no, it was an emotional affair. And he's like, it was wrong. Even though there was no physical lines crossed.

Speaker 2:
[83:59] He physically left the home?

Speaker 3:
[84:02] Yeah, he left.

Speaker 2:
[84:04] Did he come back?

Speaker 3:
[84:05] No, no, no, no. But I have the best, like I never wanted my parents to be together because I never knew them really together. And sometimes when I was younger, my dad would be like, I know you want your mommy and daddy to be together. I was like, no, I don't, gross. Like, it just didn't, it was weird to me. But yeah, I mean, we still saw him and stuff. It wasn't like he like left and I never saw him again. Like we, he was still active. Yeah, he was still active, but my, you know, he wasn't in the house. And so my mom had to go to work and she needed preschool for us. And, you know, so I definitely, so I think there's-

Speaker 2:
[84:43] Was it like a 10 hour a day?

Speaker 3:
[84:44] It was, yeah, she had to go to work. And where we lived was like kind of rural. And so she had to like go into the city to work and stuff. Like, it wasn't rural. I mean, I'm in San Diego County. I guess I could just say it. I used to live in Ramona for anyone.

Speaker 5:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 3:
[85:54] You said no, but it's like, it's like-

Speaker 2:
[85:56] Give us the address, Chrissy. I mean, you're saying, how old were you? So you were three.

Speaker 3:
[86:00] I was three, my sister was one. Yeah, it was daycare for 10 hours a day, which is not- It was needed. My mom had to work. She had to provide, she had to do this. And so, yeah, I always look at it with great. I don't think there's a one size fits all, is what it comes down to. Yes, ideally, my mom would have loved to have been home with us. Don't get me wrong, but that wasn't the circumstances that she was in. And so-

Speaker 2:
[86:22] And God met your mom in it and worked through it, and you and your mom are super tight, and it sounds like you felt like you had a beautiful childhood.

Speaker 3:
[86:29] Yes, oh my gosh, I have nothing to complain about. And now that I'm a parent myself, I'm like, how did my mom do this? Like, this is insane, you know? And it's just, and I realize the sacrifices that were made, and I realize what great, how my parents truly put us first. Like my dad, even my dad, who was making mistakes and stuff, he was just like, I never heard a single bad word about either of my parents ever. I thought they were friends. Like, I just was like, it didn't work out in marriage, they're just friends, because they were such good co-parents. I had no idea. And the other women called our house looking for my dad one day, and my mom just would matter with such grace.

Speaker 2:
[87:10] Wait, the other woman called your house looking for your dad?

Speaker 3:
[87:12] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[87:13] The woman he was having an affair with? Why was he calling your house?

Speaker 3:
[87:16] I don't know. At this point, they were together though.

Speaker 2:
[87:19] Your mom and your dad?

Speaker 3:
[87:20] No, no, no, him and his girlfriend were together.

Speaker 2:
[87:25] Meaning he thought he was picking you guys up or something?

Speaker 3:
[87:27] Yeah, I was in the 90s, so no one had cell phones, so like...

Speaker 2:
[87:30] Did your mom, were they married in the Catholic Church?

Speaker 1:
[87:33] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[87:34] My mom was eight months pregnant with me, though, when they got married in the Catholic Church. So they were able to get it annulled.

Speaker 2:
[87:41] They did have an annulment, so there was issues.

Speaker 3:
[87:43] Because she was pregnant before, I think there's a circumstance with that.

Speaker 2:
[87:47] Meaning she felt pressured to do the marriage because she was pregnant?

Speaker 3:
[87:50] It was like it fell under, something like that. Sorry, parents, I know.

Speaker 2:
[87:53] But then when they, so an annulment is as if the marriage wasn't valid, an annulment didn't exist. There was certainly a bond and there were beautiful kids yourself that came from the union. But then did they end up remarrying? No.

Speaker 3:
[88:06] Oh gosh, not my parents. Oh, other people. I was like, oh, gross.

Speaker 2:
[88:13] They didn't marry other people.

Speaker 3:
[88:14] Yes. So my dad's not Catholic.

Speaker 2:
[88:17] But your mom remarried. And then did she have more kids?

Speaker 3:
[88:20] Yeah, they had my youngest sister. So that's why I have a 16 year age gap.

Speaker 2:
[88:24] I was trying to-

Speaker 3:
[88:25] And then they had my other sister who we talked about earlier, who was stillborn. Yeah. So-

Speaker 2:
[88:30] Your mom has been through a lot.

Speaker 5:
[88:32] Oh my gosh, she has.

Speaker 3:
[88:33] She's been through so much and she's so amazing. And she went through a lot as a child too. And she still graduated, saluted Victorian, like captain of the cheer team, captain of the dance team, like just excelled and always persevered. Like never had a victim mentality, like worked her butt off. And then when she was left with us, like she had no money, like it was not a good financial situation, but she's so smart and savvy. I want her to write a book on like finances because she, like she ended up doing really well for herself. Like before she even married my stepdad. Yeah. So she's a hard worker and she's smart. So.

Speaker 2:
[89:14] Like her daughter.

Speaker 3:
[89:15] Oh no, my mom's way better than me.

Speaker 2:
[89:17] No. I'm sure she's so proud of you.

Speaker 3:
[89:21] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[89:22] I don't know. What were we talking about before? Well, I know.

Speaker 3:
[89:24] Child care, child care.

Speaker 2:
[89:25] I know, but now I have to ask, why are you homeschooling? I don't think I even asked that.

Speaker 3:
[89:29] Oh, so my mom was a big influence with that. So what's so interesting is, but yeah, that's why we talked about the divorce, because child care is, I think it was a lifeline for my mom. It was necessary. Yeah, so I think when it comes to child care, daycare, preschool, all these things, it's like, yeah, I don't think there's, again, I can't emphasize this enough when it comes to schooling. There's just not a one size fits all in caretaking, because every family has different situations. But yeah, what got me to homeschool was my mom. My mom really pioneered this firm, because my sister homeschools too. So my mom and dad had me and my sister, and then my mom and stepdad had my other sister 16 years later. So me and my sister, we were both public schooled everything. And when she went to homeschool our youngest sister, I was like, yeah, I get all the karma, right? The big families and now the homeschooling. I was like, you're going to make her a weirdo. Oh, should we talk about the socialization with homeschool? Everyone freaks out about that.

Speaker 2:
[90:24] So why did your mother decide to homeschool your youngest sister?

Speaker 3:
[90:26] She had the foresight about the iPads in school.

Speaker 2:
[90:29] Got it. We were talking about this. I guess on the podcast, before the podcast. But yes, so she was very much turned off by this whole technology in the classroom thing. She's like, no, no, this is bad news.

Speaker 3:
[90:39] And she worked in tech. So it's not like she was anti-tech. It was this, it was so new territory. There were no blockers on these things. It was just, her daughter was going to be the guinea pig for the Chromebook iPad movement. And she was like, uh-uh, I'm not having this. And there was already...

Speaker 2:
[90:56] Sorry to interrupt, but it just amazes me. They've done studies. Even if you read a book on a Kindle versus a real book, the retention of what you're learning is less. Like statistically speaking, on every level, doing work on an iPad for a child versus learning how to write with an actual pen, learning how to turn an actual page, learning how to make eye contact with an actual teacher. The research all bears out that that is better than doing it via a screen.

Speaker 3:
[91:25] People are never going to go back, though. That's the thing. So this is why I think more people are homeschooling, too, is because they've invested too much money and time into this movement.

Speaker 2:
[91:31] Well, there's no screen schools. They do exist.

Speaker 3:
[91:33] Yeah, yeah. But I'm talking from the public sector. That's like, you know, obviously...

Speaker 2:
[91:37] You're saying the public schools have invested all this money in iPads?

Speaker 3:
[91:40] That's what I'm reading on about, aka watching videos about.

Speaker 2:
[91:43] Well, in the comment section, people listening can let us know if they have kids in public school, if they're public schools using screens.

Speaker 3:
[91:48] Yeah, see, exactly. That's why I hesitate to talk about some of these things. I'm like, I'm not the authority. It's all just based on the content I'm consuming. I have heard people, I've had her schools, public schools have gotten rid of lockers because they don't use the books anymore. And now there's like couches with plugs for you to like sit and go on your laptop instead. But I've seen great videos from teachers being like, bring back textbooks. What's so awesome about textbooks is you can say, okay, this is a lesson we're on now. And you can flip and be like, oh, we're going to be learning about that later on. And then when you're on that later lesson, you'll be like, wait, what was it we learned, the building steps to get here? And then you can just easily flip back. And I don't know about you, but for me, flipping through a book is so much more than trying to go through a screen. I don't know. And then there's answers in the back of the book. I don't know. She was giving all these great benefits of hard copy textbooks.

Speaker 2:
[92:37] So your mama, hardcore pioneer, amazing mama, she decided, I'm going to home school my daughter because the public schools are trash with these iPads, basically.

Speaker 3:
[92:46] She just saw where I was going. Also, well, I think she wasn't even against it. Well, she was hesitant, but there was just no supervision on these things.

Speaker 2:
[92:54] I should not be so pejorative, so I apologize because the public schools are trash. Nothing is trash. That involves human beings because human beings are priceless and there's good teachers in the public school system. I have heard of some good public schools that are very local and the parents are involved. So it's not to say that all public schools are evil or bad.

Speaker 3:
[93:11] There is stuff being forced on the public schools though. I know that some teachers, some even principals, I know they don't like. But there was such a lack of supervision around these screens. And you got curious fifth graders, what are they typing in? You know what I mean? And so she just had the foresight for that. And so she decided to homeschool. And we were so, my sister and I were like, what are you doing, mom? Like, what, she's going to be so weird. She, you know, all these things. And she wasn't, she's great. She's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[93:41] Did she do a co-op?

Speaker 3:
[93:42] Yeah, my mom had her in all the things.

Speaker 2:
[93:44] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[93:44] My mom had her in all the things.

Speaker 2:
[93:45] It wasn't just like she was sitting at home by herself.

Speaker 3:
[93:47] It kind of just opened my eyes to the whole socialization thing. It was like, oh, she has something every day of the week. Like she's busier than me, you know? And so, yeah, the myth around the socialization, that one kind of cracks me up because I'm also like, so if public school or school is the end all be all, to a successful social life, successful social emotional intelligence, what do you say has deeply failed? Because it's not like it's a guarantee when you graduate, everyone's just like socially equipped. I mean, come on, let's get real here. So, it can be great for socialization. I'm not saying it's not, but it's not the answer to socialization. And so I do think though, it is very important that if you are a homeschool parent, that you do make socialization a priority though. And so this can be an issue if you're very introverted as a parent. So I think as long as you make it a priority, it's not gonna be an issue for your child, you know? So that might mean you have to step out of your comfort zone if you're introverted as a parent.

Speaker 2:
[94:48] Too bad, so sad.

Speaker 3:
[94:49] Yes, you gotta make sure that, because it's super important for a child. But I don't think public school or traditional school is the only way to socialize your child. In fact, I can't even have some barriers with it a little bit because I know for me, when I graduated college and then I got like my first real job, like corporate job, I had a really hard time understanding that just because this person's older than me doesn't make them my boss. So I had people who were like 40, 50 years old and I'm 23. And I didn't know how to have like a work relationship with them. They were just like the authority, even though they weren't in the workspace.

Speaker 2:
[95:27] Because they were used to just being in this stratified system where if somebody's older, then there must be more.

Speaker 3:
[95:32] And my friends were only my age. I worked at Nordstrom for a bit. And I worked with a gal who was in her 50s. She had grown kids. And she's like, you and your boyfriend was Tim at the time. She come over for dinner. I'm like, huh? But you're older than my parents. What? That idea of a relationship of having an adult friend who's five years older than you or whatever was so foreign to me because I was only friends with kids my age.

Speaker 2:
[96:04] And what you're describing that is, I think, a potential drawback of just kind of going with systematized school, sort of, you know, six to eight hours a day in a classroom with other kids your own age, away from the family, blah, blah, blah. I think that is one of the just amazing benefits that I experienced of being homeschooled. I felt comfortable in any environment.

Speaker 3:
[96:24] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[96:25] I felt comfortable with older kids. I felt comfortable with younger kids. I felt comfortable with people that were professionals. I felt comfortable with the moms. I just did not feel like there was a place I didn't belong. And partly that may have been personality, partly that may have been my mother's personality, which was very strong and extroverted and very much comfortable in her own skin. And so I'm very grateful for that. So I'm not telling people that if you homeschool, all of a sudden you can have a kid comfortable in his own skin in any environment. You have to do the work of taking the kids to different environments. That is one of my concerns with the more stratified traditional school system. But I think you can design things around that if you're intentional.

Speaker 3:
[97:06] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[97:07] To make sure that your child does have the experience of being comfortable in their own skin and being able to interact with people of all different ages.

Speaker 3:
[97:13] Yeah. I think what I should emphasize earlier is just with anything, that shouldn't be your only way of working on socialization with your child. Like that shouldn't be like, well, they go to school, that's it. You know what I mean? That's their socialization. You know what I mean? Like we should all be actively trying to raise well-rounded children and so. But yeah, with homeschooling, there is this whole misconception that you're just stuck at home. Most of the homeschoolers I know aren't even home. They're like out on field trips and doing all the things. And but yeah, there's like, I was like part of several co-ops. And then I'm really, my kids love sports. And because they're close in age, it makes it really easy because they're like, I got my two oldest on the same team. And then I have like the younger ones that we're going to put on the same like little kid thing and then I have my daughter, but she's obviously interested in other, I shouldn't say obviously, but she is interested in other things. So but it seems like it's more like three kids rather than like five or six kids and activities, you know, because when they're close in age, they can go on the same teams. But my kids love them. So I have them in traditional rec sports with all the other kids in the community. Some go to public school, some go to private school, some go to, some are homeschooled. And so it's not like, oh, well, homeschool kids are only hanging out with homeschool kids too, you know? So there are so many ways to go about the socialization. My biggest advice would be, though, is that if you find yourself as a parent more introverted, that is something you will have to like come out of your comfort zone. I mean, I think it might be easy for me to say because I'm so extroverted, but...

Speaker 2:
[98:39] Do more activities.

Speaker 3:
[98:40] But yeah.

Speaker 2:
[98:40] Teach your children confidence in all different circumstances.

Speaker 3:
[98:42] There are so many opportunities for socialization with homeschool kids.

Speaker 2:
[98:46] I agree.

Speaker 3:
[98:47] Yeah. And again, my kids aren't just hanging out with other homeschool kids. They do hang out with homeschool kids. Don't get me wrong.

Speaker 2:
[98:51] And that was my experience being homeschooled. At 12 years old, I think I'm kind of an 11, I wasn't even 12 yet. I was taking the junior college class.

Speaker 3:
[98:59] Yeah. And that's another thing.

Speaker 2:
[99:01] I was with some other older kids, including my older brothers, and this was a college class that my grandfather happened to teach. So I'm not saying that family should go put their 11 year old in a college course. By the time I was 13, I was taking junior college courses with people twice my age at the community college.

Speaker 3:
[99:17] And there are online college courses you can take too. So it's like, there are so many, especially in today's world, there are so many options that like you said, like if this is something you want for your family, there are definite ways to make it work. I know parents who work and still homeschool. So granted, I think mom might have a job that's more flexible. Like I know I have a friend, she's a hairstylist. So she has those flexible hours.

Speaker 2:
[99:41] I know people have said to me like, Lila, what do you mean you're considering homeschooling? Don't you work? And I say, yes, I do. I actually work a lot. But I'm very good at delegating. And my work is very flexible. And so the idea of like, if I was going to teach a class of my kids for one, I mean, again, they're very young right now, like for one or two hours a day, that would be doable for me. Again, I'm not saying that's what our family is planning to do. We're kind of finalizing kind of what we're going to do for the next year. We're also going to take it one year at a time, because that's really, I think, what any family should can do is take it one year at a time.

Speaker 3:
[100:15] That's the next thing. That was the biggest advice my mom gave me. Take it one year at a time. Stop thinking, if I commit to home school right now, that's what we're doing.

Speaker 2:
[100:21] That's my whole life.

Speaker 3:
[100:22] You have so many options to change course as you learn more about your kids and what environments they thrive in. That's what it's coming down to. Like, it's coming down to, like, how can we make sure our my child is thriving educationally, academically, you know, all these other ways. Like, how can I give them the environment to thrive? And so that would be my biggest advice. Like, calm down. It's OK. Like, take it one year at a time, one curriculum at a time. You do not need to plan it all out, like, in advance. It's just every school year, you readjust and you reevaluate. Good.

Speaker 2:
[100:53] I hope people listening feel encouraged. Yeah. And it's a good just confidence booster that God's got them, that they don't have to be too anxious about this. And there's a lot of options that they can consider about how to even homeschool or maybe other school options if that's not what they do. And it's going to work out. God's got your kids.

Speaker 3:
[101:14] And one last thing, because a lot of people will be like, well, how is it a great in school environment if you have like a baby crying and a toddler on your lap and you're trying to teach your kid? It is actually not always chaos like that 24 seven. Sure, there's going to be moments in the days that are a little bit more chaotic, but there are times when they're napping, the younger ones are napping. There are times when they're having independent play. Like this idea of constant chaos. I think people don't think our house can ever be quiet. And there are times when all the kids, like some will be sleeping, but they're like doing their own thing. We'll have like quiet reading time for the kids who can't read. They're still looking at books or they're doing something. So I think we need to go with this idea of like, if you have all these different age groups, it's just like constant chaos 24-7. Like I promise you, there are pockets of peace throughout the day. I do think that can be clouded if you're on your phone, 100 percent.

Speaker 2:
[102:04] Meaning if you're on your phone, you can miss the peace in your own house.

Speaker 3:
[102:06] Or something like, yeah, or if it's like, okay, they're independent playing, I'm going to scroll my phone for a minute or something. Like I don't think people realize how loud it can make your house feel, your brain feel, because you're one, probably log on, there's probably something that made you mad because rage bait is all the rage now. Like there's something that stirred you up, raised your cortisol levels. And so now you're like in this heightened sense. So my advice would be when you're homeschooling, put your phone away. I promise you, it's just going to seem a lot more doable without that there. But yeah, there's going to be moments of chaos. We're going to be handling it. But again, it goes back to what we said that it's only, you don't need six hours of this like solid academic time. And also, I think it's really important for parents to remember, like your children are learning life skills too. It's not just like get the academics done. Like when they see, I don't know, they're learning how to like work in a family.

Speaker 2:
[102:56] Well, they're learning values.

Speaker 3:
[102:57] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[102:58] I think that's a huge thing. They're learning values. And whether you're homeschooling or you're not, that's your job as a parent is to instill values. And we just had this amazing conversation on the show, where that episode should come out before this one, but with Gregory and Lisa Popchak. And they have a whole bullet of books about marriage, relationships and parenting. And I felt this was one of my favorite conversations we've ever had on the show. But they talk about parenting, about really instilling values in children and having it be very attachment based with the mom and dad. So it's not just about like, we need to like press these buttons to get these outcomes with the kids. But we're building a relationship and we're teaching them to have a relationship with God. And I do think that that's something you can do, whether you homeschool or you don't. And whether you homeschool or you do more traditional school, the end game is not so much my kid has to make grades, as much as I'm preparing somebody for, yes, the world and also for heaven. And I want them to know the love of God. And I want them to know right from wrong. And I want them to experience love in the family. And to have the source of warmth in the family to be really coming from our faith. Because that was one thing that they shared that was so fascinating to me. Apparently 80 to 90% of families who raise their kids in the church, the kids will fall away. They don't want to practice their faith anymore. And so they did a study, an in-depth study on the families, that 10 to 20% where the kids stayed, where they had 100% success rate, whether they had two kids or eight kids who stayed in the faith. And they said the number one indicator, they had 12 actually indicators, the number one indicator was, did the child growing up identify the source of warmth and affection in the home with faith? Or was faith something imposed on the family? Or something, God forbid, even like a negative experience with the family? Or was it the heartbeat of the home? And that meant they like talked about God together, they prayed together. It wasn't just like we pray the rosary. It's like we talk to God, we tell him our feelings, we tell him our fears, we tell him our joys. And that's a very normal part of the household life.

Speaker 3:
[105:07] I would say, and you get a lot of opportunity for that when you do home school, I will say that. I'm not saying it's not possible not to, but because you are together throughout the day, there are just certain questions that arise and I get to be there and my husband, I mean, we're really fortunate that we both get to be there to answer them and have these conversations throughout the day. But yeah, like you said, it can happen no matter how your kid is schooled. I think it's really important when it comes to how your child is schooled, that to realize that no matter what route you choose, it's still our responsibility as a parent to be involved in their education. So you just don't outsource that completely, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2:
[105:42] Yes, totally.

Speaker 3:
[105:43] But yeah, there's this homeless, like we're raising saints, not scholars. I don't want people to freak out, be like, oh, you're not going to raise academically inclined kids. But it was just like, but our main goal is to raise wonderful human beings who are going to serve one another and serve Christ. That's the main goal.

Speaker 2:
[105:58] Do you all have a prayer routine?

Speaker 3:
[106:00] So I get that question a lot. I would like to have, we have a routine, whether we stick to it every single day is the question. But we do have a routine. But I will say the conversations about our faith in God happens so much throughout the day. And we're not afraid to answer any questions. Like, you know, one time one of my kids was like, I really don't get the point of prayer. I don't get the point of doing any of this. And I wasn't like, how dare you? You know what I mean? Like, it was like, oh, like, let's talk about that. Like, why do you feel that way? You know, and and we could kind of dissect and just have those opportunities. And so there'll be times like, we'll be doing some of the work and we'll stop doing that and we'll have these conversations. And so I do think it's very much ingrained in our day to day. In terms of our prayer routine, though, I just like use the Hallow App. Can I talk about Hallow App here?

Speaker 2:
[106:58] We love Hallow App. Hallow is a sponsor of the show.

Speaker 3:
[107:02] But we use the Hallow App for so much. They have like a Kids Lenten Challenge right now. And so they have a great program called Saints Alive.

Speaker 2:
[107:11] And I think that Saints Alive is excellent.

Speaker 3:
[107:13] Amazing.

Speaker 2:
[107:14] My kids love that.

Speaker 3:
[107:15] Yeah. And teaching your kids about the Saints is amazing because I always, I didn't grow up knowing a lot about the Saints. And I always figured Saints, I was just talking about this too when I was going to make up down that like I figured nuns and saints and priests, like they're just born that way. They're just born holy. So when I hear these nuns like have a past, it's like more party in the knee. I'm like, why? You mean you weren't just born to be like a holy sister? Like, you know, and so learning that these people were not perfect and just learning more, like truly learning about the people in the Bible and the saints and not just like, oh, you know, David was good. He beat Goliath, you know, not like just the generic, but like really digging into it and like yet that yet God used these imperfect people, you know, and so I think that's really helpful. So yeah, so for our prayer routine right now, it's Lent. We're doing the Lenten, the Kids Lenten Challenge on Hallow, which is great. It's very entertaining for the kids. And then...

Speaker 2:
[108:14] So you listen to that like in the morning, typically?

Speaker 3:
[108:15] We do everything at night.

Speaker 2:
[108:16] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[108:17] We do everything at night. And I actually bought these little, I actually just did a video on this. I bought these little candles that are like, you can charge them and then light them up. And so we try to set the tone, you know, so we'll do that and then we'll do a prayer. We like state our intentions and it's hard growing up Catholic. Usually you just say all your prayers, but we're trying to do more like freeform prayer too.

Speaker 2:
[108:34] That's good. Well, that was what the PopChacks were saying is that it should not be you recite a prayer and it's like you check a box. It should be you're talking to your father in heaven or Jesus, you know, Jesus, your savior, the Holy Spirit, your counselor, and you have this personal relationship. Because at the end of the day, we're designed for relationship. We're not a robot designed to achieve a task, like check off a task list. And so you have to like to do relationship, though, you got to get vulnerable. You got to share, you got to listen. And that's what prayer, you want to teach that prayer with kids.

Speaker 3:
[109:05] Yeah, so there's a, I've heard about it. It was called, it's called prayer, like pray. So it was P for praise, R for repentance. So you go through your day, confess your sins, repent of your sins, pray for, you know, how to do better. A for ask. Now you're stating your intentions, who you want to pray for, things for yourself you want to pray for. And then Y is like yield, like yield everything to God. And so that's kind of the formula. And we go around and we'd share it. And then we'll do, then we will do, because I do think it's important to learn the prayers, the Catholic prayers. I think they are very beautiful. And so as long as they're understanding the words they're saying though. So sometimes we'll focus on one prayer and be like, hey, do you know why? Like I'm going to break down the Our Father for them. We're going to go like line by line, like why this is the Lord's prayer, you know? So you understand it because I grew up and I could recite all those prayers too. And I was like, I don't know what they mean. And so, and then sometimes we'll do a visual rosary that's on Hallow App too. They don't sponsor me.

Speaker 2:
[110:06] They're awesome, they sponsor us and we love Hallow.

Speaker 3:
[110:10] But it's a visual rosary and I put it up on the screen. And so the kids can see where they are on the beads and stuff. And then we have like their little candles. And I try to make it like an experience, but we do not, I need to emphasize, we do not do that every night. We want to, that is the goal. And there are nights we don't. But I think integrating it in just like your day to day and your conversations and giving thanks to God always, like everything, give glory to God and living that way. That's the way to do it. You know, there's other people who have talked about this, like if you want your kids to do the rosary, you don't necessarily need to be like, sit down, we're doing the rosary. You and your spouse can do the rosary together and the kids can just be around. And I know a lot of people are like, oh, but my toddler's screaming. You know, there's a lot of times during our family prayers, Tim's off, he's with the taller, you know, and we'll switch off. I mean, you just, I think it's just, you just do it. You gotta roll with it. Just do it, yeah, it's fine. And like, same with the church, and when we go into church, people get really intimidated to go to church. And I just said this the other day on one of my videos, I was like, I didn't come up with this by any means, but if the church ain't crying, it's dying. And if you have any pastors, priests, anyone who doesn't agree with that, I'm sorry that they're wrong.

Speaker 2:
[111:23] We did get that question saying, how do you handle mass with a bunch of kids, especially little ones in different ages?

Speaker 3:
[111:30] Yeah. So here's what you do. You go. You go. And I know you're going to think, but I don't hear anything, especially in the back, literally chasing my daughter. Yeah. Especially for my fellow non-denom or Protestant or evangelicals where they don't do the Eucharist, right? Because that's like the big reason we go, right, is like for the Eucharist. But if you don't do it, it's like, well, I don't even hear the sermon. I don't hear it. You go because I love it.

Speaker 2:
[111:55] Or you can just come to the Catholic Church.

Speaker 3:
[111:57] You're welcome. But you go because one, you're going to develop the habit. By the time my kids are like three, it's like they know the drill. And so when it's three and up, it's like easy peasy. It's when they're little to about that age that it's hard. I love the saying, you're worshiping with your feet. God sees you. And I know you may not be thinking, I'm not getting anything from this. But I think we need to remember, the church isn't just about us. We're there to praise and worship God. And so I think Jonathan Roomie said it on one of your podcasts more recently. It's like, you're looking for that really heartfelt homily and the music and this. And when you go to church and you're not getting that, you're like, oh, I don't feel it. But it's not about a feeling. It's about worshiping Christ. So you're worshiping with your feet. When you're in the back, you don't hear a word anyone's saying. Like, it's okay. You're there and you're making it a habit. You want to raise your kids in the church, you got to bring them to church. Because what's going to inevitably happen? OK, we're just in this season. It's too hard right now. And then it's just going to slowly slip away from you. And then what? So now that kid's three, but now you have another kid and they're not. The three year old is not used to going to church now. And I have this other, you know what I mean? And so it's just just go. And I know it's going to be hard. And I'm not saying disrupt the entire congregation if your child's screaming their head off by any means.

Speaker 2:
[113:16] Welcome in the back, welcome outside if you need to.

Speaker 3:
[113:18] Yeah, if you need to go outside, it's fine. It's like a little fussing though. Like if, especially if you're a nursing mom and they're like fussing while you're trying to situate yourself, that's fine.

Speaker 2:
[113:26] I was so proud of this little family at church the other Sunday. And they had maybe two and a half boy, your old boy in the stroller and he was crying. He was just crying, but he was tired. You could tell he was like ready for nap time. It was like around nap time. And so they're pushing the stroller back and forth. And I could tell the temptation in the mom to like, let's just get out of here because people are looking at me. But she also knew like, if I do this a little longer, then he'll fall asleep and I can stay in here. And I was so proud of her for staying put. He wasn't screaming at the top of his lungs. He was crying though. And it was maybe a few minutes, but like, so what? And I was so proud of her for staying because she belonged there. And he belonged there. And we can practice respect for the rest of the church and the mass while still tolerating some crying because that's like the noise of heaven. You know, heaven hears those noises and loves it. And like you said, if you're not crying, you're dying as a church. And we need to make space for our families more. Do you, are you food or no food in church for little ones?

Speaker 3:
[114:24] Oh, I'm pro food, 1,000%.

Speaker 2:
[114:26] Let them have the pretzel or the cherry.

Speaker 3:
[114:28] Oh my gosh, that's how we survive. So, and I also have activities for them too. I actually have a video on this and I always get heat whenever I show the activities, like, they're there for, you're there for God. I'm like, okay, they're 15 months old, like, let's calm down. Well, my 15 month old understands the importance of the Eucharist and done it. I'm like, okay, my 15 month old is genuflecting and they keep a reverent silence during the mass. That's what they tell me. Maybe I just don't know what I'm doing, which is all very, you know, that's true. But yeah, I bring activities. I bring quiet activities. I will not let them go on an electronic device. No, absolutely not. No, but I bring coloring books. I bring, I have these great little pads that you can draw on, you like press a button and it disappears. And so they look, they kind of look like iPads or not. They're just a drawing pad. I bring the Cheerios. We bring Z bars. We try to bring things that aren't noisy, snacks like crinkling and stuff.

Speaker 4:
[115:21] Are you kidding me?

Speaker 3:
[115:23] Pop a Cheerio in the mouth. I will let them bring a quiet toy, depending on their age, and they can like kind of this little motion with them. But it cannot, I know some kids like, they'll bring like little cars in, it's loud. Like it has to, everything has to be quiet. And I was a preschool teacher. So like, I was like, I'm like aware of what, like quiet time, because we had some kids who wouldn't nap. And so we had like a quiet toy bit, you know, so I was like, I don't know, I had some familiarity with some of that.

Speaker 2:
[115:49] But I think the bottom line is your kids belong in church with you.

Speaker 3:
[115:52] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[115:52] And you should not feel any shame or embarrassment. Yeah. And let them eat the Cheerios, you know, let them have a little snack.

Speaker 3:
[115:59] They worry like, well, if you're letting them do that, how do they form the habits? But you just do, I don't know, I guess I think of it like the way.

Speaker 2:
[116:04] My six-year-old knows he's not received Holy Communion yet, but he knows he doesn't eat Cheerios in church.

Speaker 3:
[116:08] Yeah, and at some point they get older and you start to understand and like, yeah, they just, you kind of wean them off that stuff, the way, you know, you just kind of wean them as they get older, you start to realize like they don't eat as much or whatever. But yeah, that's my advice is like, it's intimidating and it's not going to be easy. And it may not get easy for a while, but I promise you won't regret it.

Speaker 2:
[116:27] Yes. That's beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[116:29] So beautiful, Chrissy, you guys are crushing it.

Speaker 3:
[116:31] But yeah, I do have my husband though with me. Like I don't know if I can do it by myself. It's like, cause I know some moms like the dad's deployed or something. So I mean, take what I say with a grain of salt. You know what I mean? Like this is based just on my experience.

Speaker 2:
[116:45] So we have this list of questions that came in and there's so many good ones. I want to run through some.

Speaker 3:
[116:51] Yeah, we'll like do a rapid fire.

Speaker 2:
[116:53] Yes. And then also we were going to do the hate comments. Maybe we'll do a couple just for fun at the very end.

Speaker 3:
[117:00] I don't mind missing those if we need to.

Speaker 2:
[117:01] One topic that we were going to put a pin in, which I think maybe we can both give a quick take on it, but the romantic emotional affair topic.

Speaker 3:
[117:09] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[117:10] Do we want to talk about that? Sure. Okay. We were not asked specifically about that topic. We were asked about keeping the spark alive.

Speaker 3:
[117:17] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[117:17] In a marriage with young children. And I think emotional affairs could be one threat to a marriage. And obviously can be a consequence of feeling like you're drifting apart and you're not having good boundaries. But what's your take?

Speaker 3:
[117:31] Well, one, I do think, okay, this is a super hot take, and I'm going to upset people. I think some romance novels are an emotional affair in some level. Some level, like maybe not emotional.

Speaker 2:
[117:42] Are an emotional affair.

Speaker 3:
[117:44] Affair, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[117:44] 100%.

Speaker 3:
[117:45] I think it can contribute to things in the marriage. Now, I have women be like, no. Not my romance novel. I'm more romantic because I read these. I want to be more intimate with my husband because I'm all rubbed up for reading it. What are we talking about?

Speaker 2:
[118:02] We're talking about Pride and Prejudice?

Speaker 3:
[118:03] No, I'm trying to smut. That's very popular.

Speaker 4:
[118:05] Then it's objectively wrong.

Speaker 3:
[118:06] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[118:07] If you're reading erotica, it is like looking at pornography. So you do not read erotica as a Catholic or Christian woman. You do not do it. And if you do it, you need to go to confession. I mean, it's that simple in my view.

Speaker 3:
[118:19] Yeah, I would say I will. I'm going to do a little bit of a hot take here. I wouldn't. It's like pornography, but it's not pornography because pornography does involve real people and all these other horrific things.

Speaker 2:
[118:29] You can do pornography that's fictionalized.

Speaker 3:
[118:31] It's like fictional. Yeah. But either way, it's what's in the mind, like what you're envisioning and what's in the mind. And also like-

Speaker 2:
[118:37] But it's just as morally wrong for the person consuming it. Right.

Speaker 3:
[118:41] But the thing, my issue, even some that aren't heavily smut, but even some romantic ones, we've talked about this in the past, where it's written by a woman, this person does not exist in real life, and then you expect your spouse to behave in this way of this fictional male character. And you start to compare your spouse to this fictional character. And I always equate it to like, that would suck if my husband expected me to have a Victoria's secret body after seven kids. That's an unrealistic expectation. And I think women can do that with romance novels. And so again, sometimes that's smart. Yeah, like it looks great. But even some, there's something wrong with like enjoying a romantic novel that's not smutty. But we have to look at it, because I know there's been times where I've been reading one and like, I don't know, my husband didn't give me-

Speaker 2:
[119:30] A romantic novel, not a smart novel.

Speaker 3:
[119:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And my husband wouldn't give me like a certain amount of attention that day that I wanted. And I'm like, I feel like so down, like, wow, because why? And I realize I'm like comparing to Darcy. Yeah, I'm comparing this fictional character that was written by a woman. So again, I don't think that's like a contributing, but I think we should just be mindful always, we should always be mindful of the content we consume. Because I think, I think, well, let's talk about things too. Tim talked about this when he was on the podcast as well.

Speaker 1:
[120:00] I mean, you should not be on Instagram and social media looking up like gym girls.

Speaker 5:
[120:05] Of course not.

Speaker 1:
[120:05] You know what I mean? So like the whole lustful thing. And I think in a world where we're separated from it physically, it's on our screen, people tend to justify it more.

Speaker 5:
[120:15] Well, I think for women who, like our imaginations are so powerful as women, they are so powerful, our inner thought life, our hearts, our desires. I mean, for men too, of course. But speaking to the women, I think you want to revere, respect, protect your marriage and your husband. And this is like you mentioned your mother, right? This is how we kind of got into this a little bit. But, and what she went through with your dad and the emotional affair and everything that took place, like my mother would say this to me growing up, I don't remember the context, maybe like friends we knew were getting divorced or something, but she would say, most men don't know they're having an affair until they're in bed with the man or with the woman. And I think it could be the same for the woman. Like, affairs do not start out as affairs. They start out as inappropriate connections with somebody of the opposite sex where you're not honoring the marriage and usually the other spouse is not aware and they take on a life of their own. And you want your spouse to be your best friend. And I will die on this hill. I do not think that a married man or woman should have a best friend who is of the opposite sex that is not their spouse. And I think they can have close friends that are the opposite sex, but they have to also be close friends with the other spouse. And they should also be, if they're married to a man, close friends with their spouse because they are one flesh and you are one flesh. So you can still have like tight relationships with other couples, but they need to be in context of the couples.

Speaker 1:
[121:42] Yes. So do you want me to get into the beginning part of our marriage? So when we got married, I was young, I was 23, was the first of my friends to get married. I had a huge group of friends, co-ed group of friends, still in college kind of thing. Like I think I was 22.

Speaker 5:
[121:57] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[121:58] Still in college or still very much in that young 20s lifestyle. And Tim, my husband, he did not, he's older, he's like four years older than me, but he was also like he had his master, he was working, like he had all these things, and he didn't really like to go out a lot, and I love to go out, and he is not the jealous kind. He's like, go ahead, go have fun. I trust you, and no physical lines were ever crossed, not even like, I won't even say emotional lines were ever crossed. But I look back at some of this, there was a lot of alcohol involved, we'd all go out together, and while there was nothing, I didn't have anything, I just...

Speaker 5:
[122:33] You're saying it wasn't just with girls?

Speaker 1:
[122:34] No, it would be with our big group of friends.

Speaker 5:
[122:36] With men as well.

Speaker 1:
[122:37] And they knew Tim, and they'd come to the house, and Tim wouldn't necessarily call them friends by any means, but he's friendly.

Speaker 5:
[122:42] Why are you as a married woman going out and hanging out with the singles? It wasn't a good fit.

Speaker 1:
[122:46] But Tim didn't see anything wrong with it at the time. I didn't see anything wrong with it at the time. I was still also, I was having my cake and eating it, too. I'm married, but I'm still doing all the things and going on trips with my friends and stuff. And so I don't think I went on any trips without Tim, but yeah, there would be alcohol involved. We all hang out. I would, I mean, I'm not proud of it, but I would go get drunk. Tim would pick me up. With this whole group though. She's with the girls and some guys, but yeah, I know the difference is nothing was secret. We know what I mean. I never like would text and see. I mean, he knew everything, but he wasn't threatened by it.

Speaker 5:
[123:25] But the point of what you're saying is now, looking back, you would not do that. No, it's not doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1:
[123:29] Why positions where things could have happened, I guess. And why would you put yourself in that in that position? You know, and so again, you at the time, like nothing could happen. I'm not even like attracted to any of these people. You know what I mean? But like, it still just wasn't.

Speaker 5:
[123:45] It's just not honoring of the marriage. And again, you didn't, I'm not trying to know. You were in this situation. You didn't have this understanding. But I think in our culture where on the one hand, we're so alienated from each other. We don't like each other in the eye. We don't ask each other really how we're doing, get to know each other. Like we're on our screens all day. We want to go out of our way to be personal with people. I do think that's important and tender with people. But then on the other hand, you know, navigating the boundary of if you're married and even if you're not married because you want to be chased, your interactions with other people have to be intentional. And where you don't protect your marriage is when you allow things to take on a life of their own that are not under the umbrella of intention. Like this was something that was intended. This is something that my spouse and I are on the same page about. And then it ultimately can threaten the marriage.

Speaker 1:
[124:37] Yeah, and I think also like I watch shows like Friends where everyone was just friends. And that's how I looked at it.

Speaker 5:
[124:43] They all slept together. They were not just friends.

Speaker 1:
[124:45] Yeah, I guess. I guess, but I was like, you know, I don't know. But I just looked at it like I never... That's a hold on. Let me back up a little bit. I mean, I had a co-ed group, but I was very strict about not dating any of those guys in the group. Like I had this weird thing where I was like, nope, like you're my friend group. And if I date, it's going to get messy. Like I all...

Speaker 5:
[125:01] Your friends owned them?

Speaker 1:
[125:02] Yeah, I had, you know, and I don't have a lot of experience with them with Tim since I was 19. So, but I was like, I was just never like, I never, yeah. So I didn't have any like hookups with, or I guess you could say with any, like I began, I've been with Tim since I was a teenager. But, so, but again, I just, the situate, Tim, but at the time you like couldn't convince us that was not honoring the marriage, I guess, cause I was just doing what I thought was normal. And then because I wasn't attracted to anyone, I didn't feel that way, you know, I only had eyes for Tim, but it did come out. Like some people were like, if you got in another life, like to me, like that there was...

Speaker 5:
[125:43] Oh, they professed their love to you.

Speaker 1:
[125:44] Not profess their love, but like it came out that it wasn't just platonic.

Speaker 5:
[125:47] The bottom line is inappropriate stuff happened.

Speaker 1:
[125:49] And it was based on alcohol too. And they didn't cross any lines, right? Like they didn't physically come on to me or anything like that.

Speaker 5:
[125:55] But I think this is, and I say this to single women too, you get to control your environment largely. And you get to largely control the conditions that you put yourself into. Like you choose to go to the bar, you choose to drink, you choose to, you know, spend a lot of one on one time with this male friend when, you know, in circumstances where there could be boundaries crossed, whatever, right? And again, this is not like, oh, Lila is now blaming rape victims for the rape.

Speaker 1:
[126:25] No, I'm not doing that at all, at all whatsoever.

Speaker 5:
[126:27] But I am saying, I am saying we control what we can control. And so when it comes to boundaries, we should have our boundaries already thought through when we're going into circumstances. And I just have them as an operating assumption for how we roll in the world. And this is how you protect yourself from unwanted advances, largely. Again, I'm not saying this is like a fail proof because evil people can still do evil things, but this is how you navigate life. And people say to me, like, well, how have you, like, haven't you had unwanted advances, Lila, like in my history and all this stuff? And yeah, I've had all kinds of like crazy experiences. But thanks be to God, I've gone into all the different circumstances I've been in largely with, like, this is how I roll. Like, I'm not going to spend a lot of time alone with men that I'm not dating, and there's a context for it. I'm not going to be spending time alone with married people or married men, where there could even be that possibility. This is even before I got married myself, right? And I think about the Mike Pence rule, like he did not have dinner. He would not have dinner with women while he's a married man. I mean, he is a married man, he's not going to go have dinner with another woman. I think that's a really good rule.

Speaker 1:
[127:40] Let's talk about work. You had someone on your show, I forgot his name, or maybe you were on his show, where you have people like that's where a lot of affairs happen is at work. And so I was talking about this with my husband because at one point, so he's always been in the startup scene, it's always been like all dudes, like in his tech stuff, not because they were just, it was always a small group of guys, like they didn't have a lot of employees. But at one point, they sold his company and he became the CTO of this company and it became, it was big. And my husband never went on business trips, but like they would have business trips and they would like partner up these people, like man and you know, she represented this, he represented, they would go on these trips together. They had families at home and I thought nothing of it because I'm like, oh, it's work related. They'd be on the same hotel, like not the hotel room, obviously, but it was just like, it's a little weird. Yeah. And I'm like, but it's very normalized. Or you, and like when I was in corporate position for the short time I was, I would notice these people would go get like lunch together, just the two of them. And I remember thinking like, aren't they both married? But I'm like, yeah, but like I was still doing the whole, like hanging out with my friends and stuff. And so to me, it was very like normal, but now I'm like, looking back, like these are positions you're putting yourself into. And it's like, I think I forgot who it was. He's famous too. I don't even know who, I'm just really bad with people. But he was saying like, when you're at work, you're like dressed, probably your best. You know, you're looking at-

Speaker 5:
[129:04] There's not the low knee clip I think you're talking about.

Speaker 1:
[129:05] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[129:06] He's been on the show. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[129:07] Yeah, you guys were talking about that. And it was like, I was thinking about this too. Like when you're, when I was a stay at home mom and like he'd go to work, I wasn't, I mean, I didn't think anything of it then, but now I think, but I'm like, oh, did you go to work and see like pretty women that come home to me like with a baby and a taller on my hip and my hair up and like spit up on me? And like, he never, he always thinks I'm beautiful or whatever. But I could see this, like you go to work and you're surrounded by like, let's say like beautiful coworkers because they're dressed their best. They're not having to take care of a bunch of babies at work, you know? And, and then you're working towards something together, right? So you're, let's say you're working at like a big fortune 500 company and you guys just make, make a huge goal and you're celebrating that together. I don't know. So it's just the work thing. I know I might sound crazy, but it's like, I think you just have to have boundaries at work.

Speaker 5:
[129:55] You just need really good boundaries. Yeah. And I think that that's not to say you can never have a one-on-one meeting with some of the other sex. Of course you can, but just being very mindful of the dynamics, being very careful, do only doing things when necessary, making sure your spouse is always looped in. I mean, there's just a lot of basic things that I think are, are important because your marriage is so sacred. I mean, marriage is such a blessing. It's so sacred. It's so beautiful. This is your one flesh. This is your love of your life. And the devil wants to destroy marriages today.

Speaker 1:
[130:28] Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5:
[130:29] He loves to destroy marriages. And the devil wants to create a wedge in your relationship with your spouse. The evil one wants to sow distrust. He wants to sow suspicion. He wants to sow anxiety, division, all of these things.

Speaker 1:
[130:46] Oh, absolutely. So now, let's talk into how do you keep that spicy.

Speaker 5:
[130:50] What's your take on how to keep the spark alive? The exact question was, how do you keep the romance and spark alive in your marriage while raising littles?

Speaker 1:
[131:00] Okay, it's hard. My husband is social. It's like, sometimes I like stir the pot just to get some drama out of him. But I think for us, appreciation and affection, the two A's, appreciation and affection, you can both share that with each other, like appreciate one another.

Speaker 5:
[131:21] Even when you're holding the baby with spit out.

Speaker 1:
[131:23] Yes, absolutely. And okay, let me give you a practical tip, though. You have to sacrifice sleep. So people are like, how do you even have time to have seven kids? If you catch my drift. And it's like, we sacrifice sleep. And we are in the thick of it. Like we have been in the thick of it. Obviously, we have learned how to cope and manage a lot more as we have more kids. There have been nights where it takes a really long time to get the kids to bed. And by the time we get them to bed, we get the house cleaned up, we shower, we get ready for bed ourselves. There have been times where it's like literally midnight, one in the morning sometimes, or we got the kids to bed, or the baby kept waking up, or the taller kept waking up, and we couldn't get to bed in time, or someone's in our bed, right?

Speaker 5:
[132:11] That's our situation.

Speaker 1:
[132:12] Yeah. Okay, one, get creative, guys. Bed is not the only place it needs to be, okay?

Speaker 5:
[132:17] Like, two.

Speaker 1:
[132:20] But there have been times where we, there's lots of times, I don't even know if there are times where it's rare, where it's one in the morning, and we're both tired, but we do the thing, you know? We get intimate.

Speaker 5:
[132:30] And because you're saying, if you didn't, when would we ever, when would you ever?

Speaker 1:
[132:37] Right? And so here's the thing, you're sacrificed sleep, and I know you're tired, but you're going to get going, you're going to wake up, you're going to get energized. And two, like, it's going to energize you throughout your next day, I promise you, like, it's going to energize your marriage, it's going to energize you guys. And so there has to be, there's always sacrifices taking place. And so for us, a way that we can make sure we keep it alive is we have sacrifice, we sacrifice sleep.

Speaker 5:
[133:04] Sacrifice sleep before you sacrifice your sex life is what you're saying.

Speaker 1:
[133:07] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[133:08] Which I think is really good advice.

Speaker 1:
[133:09] Yeah, I'd rather do that than, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5:
[133:12] And there's can be some balance, it's like, well, every night, well, you know, maybe once or twice a week. And then the other night's like, do you use the extra hour, half hour to sleep?

Speaker 1:
[133:20] Yeah, absolutely. Yes, it does not have to be every night. Yeah, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 5:
[133:23] I think that's another thing that some people, especially in, you know, the faith-based world, they're like, okay, what's the optimum amount of intimacy that we should be aiming at?

Speaker 1:
[133:33] Let's talk about that really quick.

Speaker 5:
[133:35] And there's studies that have been done that show that couples that are intimate at least once a week.

Speaker 1:
[133:40] Okay, I reject those studies. You wanna know why? Well, I'm gonna reject it. Because everyone is in different seasons. So like-

Speaker 5:
[133:47] The studies are not designed for families that have three little kids.

Speaker 1:
[133:51] And I always take every study with a great assault now. Because I'm like, okay, who did you study? What was the focus group here? And what was their situation? Because at the end of the day, we are so unique as individuals and as families. I just don't think there's any way to dataize, I don't even know the right word for it, but to create data out of it. Because again, who was the focus? I wanna know about every single family member in that focus group. I wanna know how many were in that group. And so it's just like, can I even relate to a single person in that focus group with this study done that says it's optimal to do it once a week? So I do reject that. But however, I just think everyone has different seasons. So obviously there's seasons, especially when I have to get this surgery, I have to make sure I'm not pregnant, we don't use contraceptives, we are going to have to stay in. Once a week is not gonna be doable for us at that point.

Speaker 5:
[134:44] And the absence period might be months is what you're saying.

Speaker 1:
[134:47] And people freak out at that. And then they go, of course, like, we'll do all the other things. And it's like, okay, no, we can do all the other things. But you have to end in the act.

Speaker 5:
[134:57] In intercourse.

Speaker 1:
[134:58] Yes. Those periods of absence, though, we grow so close and intimate in so many other ways. And then when we do get to, it's like being newlyweds again. You know, and so like, I don't know, there can be a lot of like, romance in the abstinence periods too. Like, I, I'm a little TMI, but I think I talked about the first time I was on here too. But like, we were like making out like high school teenager. Like, I mean, I don't know if, I don't know if high schoolers should make out that way, but it was like, you should not make out here in high school. But I just meant it was like very, like it was so different.

Speaker 5:
[135:34] It was very playful.

Speaker 1:
[135:35] Especially when we were in the contraceptive phase, where it was just, sex was just part of the routine. You know, it just became very routine because like.

Speaker 5:
[135:43] But wait a minute. Are you recommending making out when you're trying to be abstinent? Because that's.

Speaker 1:
[135:48] I don't know. I guess it depends on like what you guys can do.

Speaker 5:
[135:52] I think I would just say like, like you can definitely do like some very tender kissing and like be very close, but you also don't want to like intentionally arouse the other person. Sure. When you're trying to avoid.

Speaker 1:
[136:04] Passionately, we were just being passionate. Yeah. And it was just like, it wasn't like, let's make it. Let's have a make out session. It was just there was like a passion there, like a more spontaneity that wasn't there before. Because usually how it was before was like, you make out, you have sex. And it was just routine. Whereas this was like, I don't know, it was just like, we're kissing, but it didn't necessarily end. Like, I don't know, it didn't end. It was just a nice, passionate kiss. I guess you could say, because usually when you're married.

Speaker 5:
[136:32] There's a lot of tenderness and affection.

Speaker 1:
[136:33] Yes, exactly. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. So it was-

Speaker 5:
[136:36] And longing, but you weren't like feeding the longing, but you're expressing at least the longing.

Speaker 1:
[136:40] And so there's just so many beautiful moments in these periods of abstinence that for us as we're closer. And again, those periods of abstinence aren't used in a manipulative way though. It wasn't like we were in a bad place or any of these things or I was mad at him and I'm withholding, I'm using it to manipulate my husband. It's like, obviously like, oh, your health is important. We can't do this thing right now. And we were still able to be intimate in other ways is what I'm trying to say. And so, but in terms of like, yeah, so that like those periods of abstinence do spice life for us, believe it or not. Sacrificing sleep, putting your phone down. I don't think people realize like how much they're on their phone, honestly. Like, don't doom scroll in bed if you can. I know it's hard, but you're in bed, like with your hot spouse.

Speaker 5:
[137:25] Snuggle up, snuggle up.

Speaker 1:
[137:26] Come on, you know? And so.

Speaker 5:
[137:30] Well, here's another thing. I think the whole like, initiation to question of like, who initiates when? Like, I know some, you know, I've seen, you know, from people that just share more anonymously, like Reddit boards and things like that. But, you know, a complaint has been like the woman doesn't initiate or the man, like she never initiates. And I think women feeling more confident about initiating, I do think is good.

Speaker 1:
[137:56] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[137:57] And if you're, if you were raised, you know, you're trying to be raised with faith and chat, chase and everything else, it can maybe feel, you know, intimidating, like, I don't know, I was trying to, you know, be this good, pure woman, and then I'm married, and how do I do this transition? And just to give yourself a lot of freedom to enjoy sex, freedom to initiate sex, freedom to desire sex, like, those are all very beautiful things. And you want to, like you're saying, create intentional space for it, even if you're losing out on sleep, or you have to actually schedule it in and make a date for it. All those things I think are good in marriage, because this is a beautiful core part of marriage.

Speaker 1:
[138:35] Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I mean, I guess that's what it comes down to. And then in terms of like, just I think appreciating one another is huge. I think it's so huge, appreciating one another and showing affection. And that doesn't even have to be obviously sex, like affection and just the day to day of putting the hand on the small of her back. Like, you know what I mean? Like coming up behind her when she's doing, I mean, dishes, well, she's like totally touched out for the day, I kind of feel that sometimes. But you know what I mean? But just like, I actually saw something, and it's not going to apply to everyone, but the sentiment I enjoyed, this guy was saying like, when I'm with my wife anywhere, like I'm touching her in some way, like if we're sitting down together and we're talking to someone, like my hand's on her leg, or I'm holding her hand, or my arm's around her. And just like, just little touched moments of like, I'm your person still. And so I actually did a video on this too, where I'm like, if you really are in this area of like the roommate stage, because that can happen. You're just both caring for the kids. You're, you know, you kind of are trying to keep the house running, trying to keep the kids running. They're so little. You might forget to just touch each other, honestly. And that can slowly kind of drift you guys away. So this is like, it's going to sound so technical and not romantic. But like put a note in both your phones and have a reminder go off every single day that you guys are going to hug for like a full 30 seconds. Seriously, and like time it if you need to. I'm not kidding you, like don't just hug, be done. No, like hug, you don't even have to kiss, you don't have to do it. Hug, like remember, ground yourselves in one another for 30 seconds a day. Because I read this story, I don't even know if it's true, but I just remember reading this story like on Pinterest years ago. And I think this wife, or this husband wanted to leave his wife and she was like dying of cancer or something, like something awful, or she was sick. And so he had to carry her down the stairs every day. And again, I don't know if this is true or not. Like some thing I read, but him picking her up and holding her and like just being close with her like that every day, he fell back in love kind of thing. Like it was like they grounded in one another, remembered like why they were together. And so when I say, if you're seriously like in the roommate stage and you're just like, it's like, oh, my husband doesn't even want to touch me, or my wife doesn't even want to touch me. I don't care how technical this is. Like put alarms on your phone. And the times you go to your home together, you're going to hug for a full 30 seconds and just be in that moment and like really hug.

Speaker 5:
[140:59] I love that. I love that. And it reminds me of Emily Wilson-Hussem, who is amazing. And she shares about how when she's unloading her kids from the car, she tries to just like hug them for a minute. Because you can do this with your kids too. I know everyone's keeping the spark alive in marriage, but also just as a way to love your kids. So like look them in the eye and just hug them. But yeah, definitely hug that husband.

Speaker 1:
[141:21] Those are like my very technical, like here's things you can check off a box to keep your marriage hot.

Speaker 5:
[141:28] We've got so many other topics.

Speaker 1:
[141:30] We should do like a Q&A one one day. Where we just answer everyone's questions.

Speaker 5:
[141:34] There's so many good topics, but this has been awesome.

Speaker 1:
[141:39] I love coming on here.

Speaker 5:
[141:40] You are the best.

Speaker 1:
[141:41] It's so fun. I'll come on whenever you want me to.

Speaker 5:
[141:44] Next time you come on, you're gonna have a baby with you.

Speaker 1:
[141:45] I know, as long as I can breastfeed on the show.

Speaker 5:
[141:47] 100%, we've had breastfeeding on the show.

Speaker 1:
[141:50] Yeah, I'll be here.

Speaker 5:
[141:51] 100%.

Speaker 1:
[141:53] I was telling your producer, I was like, I'll come on when I'm in labor. I love being on the show.

Speaker 5:
[141:59] Hey, I'll deliver a baby on camera. There we go. The births tweet. That actually probably would be, people would really be interested in that episode. A live birth on the show. We are not prepared for that, right?

Speaker 1:
[142:14] No, I've never done a home birth. I've only done hospital births.

Speaker 5:
[142:17] You're the best. Thank you, Chrissy.

Speaker 1:
[142:18] You're the best. Thank you for having me. I love our time together.

Speaker 5:
[142:21] A big thank you to our channel partner EWTN. EWTN is the world's largest religious broadcast network, reaching millions of people every single day with the beautiful truth of the gospel. You can be the first to watch new Lila Rose Show episodes 24 hours before YouTube over at ewtn.com/ondemand and on the EWTN app.