transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] The Art of Leadership Network.

Speaker 2:
[00:03] Apparently, they didn't have the Billy Graham rule because Jesus was a single man traveling, and there was Joanna, the wife of Chusa, that was, she's obviously a married woman with means, that traveled as part of his preaching team, that funded his ministry out of her own means, along with many other women, the scripture says, in Luke 8.3. So I'm saying they were obviously successful, financially independent, women of generosity, that funded the mission of Jesus as he traveled. So there is room for all of them.

Speaker 1:
[00:39] Welcome to The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. Today, Christine Caine is on the pod. My goodness, we end up talking about all these things that we weren't planning on talking about, including why women are leaving the church, why you shouldn't do the job of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives. That was powerful. It's a commentary on cancel culture and kind of the frail moment we're in right now as a culture where we don't tolerate anything. We talk about the limits of therapy and why pruning is the key to flourishing. She turned 60 this year. I can say that because she talks all about it. What do you need to do at this point in life to be flourishing? So we talk about all of that. Hey, if you're new to this podcast, welcome. And if you're a regular listener, Christine and I were talking before we hit record about all the next-gen leaders that watch and follow this podcast. We're really glad that you're here. And if you haven't yet, hit the follow button or subscribe button wherever you're watching or listening. It would be a lot to me. It would mean a lot to me if you would do that. So I would love to have you do that. Christine Caine is a speaker, an activist, bestselling author who awakens people globally to discover their God-given purpose for Jesus. Christine and her husband Nick founded A21, a global anti-human trafficking organization. She also founded Propel Women, an initiative that activates women to follow Jesus wholeheartedly and live out their God-given purpose. And now to my conversation with Christine Caine. Chris, I've been really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome back.

Speaker 2:
[02:13] Hey, Carrie, it is my honor. I'm kind of laughing because I think we had the conversation before the conversation.

Speaker 1:
[02:19] Yeah, we did. We were talking about, like, you've got a milestone year. I had mine last year, so I never asked a woman her age, but you've been pretty public about it.

Speaker 2:
[02:27] Yes, I have. The big six, you know, I'm celebrating all year, because I'm like, you don't get to 60 and just celebrate one day. I'm having all 365 days. I committed to my 60th.

Speaker 1:
[02:39] Good for you. Good for you. So this is not like this big foreboding thing for you, is it?

Speaker 2:
[02:44] Quite the contrary. I mean, you know, it's so fascinating to me how, sort of historically and really, women feel really weird about their age. I'm like, y'all, I mean, I could be dead, but I'm 60. I'm 60. And by God's grace, I feel healthy and strong. And I'm doing 60 things that I've never done before for my 60th year. That could be anything. Like, you know, last week I went to Alaska to see the Northern Lights and slept in a igloo. But also I ate Whataburger for the first time instead of like in and out.

Speaker 1:
[03:19] I see. That's pretty epic, isn't it? Whataburger.

Speaker 2:
[03:22] That's it. So in my life, it's going to be like, 60, it could be just ordering something I've never ordered, you know, going somewhere I've never gone. But, you know, because a lot of people try to get to our age and get into this route. And I'm like, no, no, no. I'm like very willfully choosing to do 60 things I've never done before.

Speaker 1:
[03:41] Good for you. I think John Maxwell, I hope to have him back on the show this year. He's got a similar birthday routine where he does like really exciting things for his birthday. Good for you. Good for you. You know what? And they say 60 is the new 40 or at least they told me that to make me feel better. I don't know. 60 is the new 40.

Speaker 2:
[03:59] Who wants to be 40 again? I just think 60 is the 60.

Speaker 1:
[04:03] Yeah, but there is greater health. Like we have greater lifespan and greater health span now. So I think, you know, I think back to my childhood, I think I've said this before, but I look at some of the pictures and I realize, oh, those people growing up in my church with white hair and walkers were in their 50s and 60s. And yeah, it's just changed. Life for some of us, you know, if you live in particular zip codes or countries has gone better than elsewhere. But you know, you and I were talking, and this was the conversation before the conversation. You were saying, what are you doing about women leaving the church? Because, and thank you for listening to the podcast. I am blown away by who listens to this. And you said, I would love to give my theories about what's going on. And we also talked about a missing generation, or you talked about a missing generation. So I'm just going to stop talking and let you comment on that.

Speaker 2:
[04:58] Well, no, you know, I mean, obviously I've been involved with women's ministry of sorts, anything from even when I was with young people, young women, when I was a youth pastor and youth leader. And then all the way through what I do with Propel now. So we are really looking at the data at Propel. So I'm looking at the demographic of like the Gen Z girls. You know, of course we've got all the young men coming back to church and then where are the women? Lots of theories about that. But also the thing that I don't think that we need to skip over in the data is that there's women my age too, that are really leaving the church. What's happening is they're becoming empty nesters and maybe younger than me. And maybe they were like, I'm in it, got my kids through, launched my kids. Now what is there for me to do? And the issue is if there is nothing for them to do, they're like, me and Jesus are okay. I can read the Bible for myself. I've done enough Bible studies. Why do I really need to be there? Is it part of me being 60, writing, flourishing? Yes, always I will write for the young people. But it's also for my generation to go, oh, you're not supposed to tap out at this point. It's not like, well, I've done it really well for 40 years. I've been at church, I raised my kids. Now I deserve whatever that means, you know, whatever to go sit on the lake, look at a tree, you know. But I'm going, yes, you could do all those things. But actually the mandate from scripture is that we're supposed to run our race and finish our course. This is not the time for us to be being sort of selfish and tapping out because we have a generation that so desperately needs us and needs us to finish well and needs us to finish strong. You know, in this last five year period, many of the people that I personally know that have not finished their race well were older than me. So this is not the time for me to take my foot off the brake and go, oh, I could just tap out and do whatever I want. I haven't come this far to only come this far. I want to run my race and finish my course. And then of course, there's a generation sort of under me, some of the millennial generation that may be in their late 30s, in their 40s, that either for whatever reason and through disappointment and disillusionment or just tapping out, have either deconverted, deconstructed, I mean, use whatever word. So suddenly, I was thinking this in light of my daughters, who are 20 and 24. When I was 40 and I was a youth leader and running a youth movement, I was that role model for a lot of the 20-year-olds. That was my role in youth ministry. But now, there's like this major gap. There's this major gap where my girls are like, mom, who do I look to in that age?

Speaker 1:
[07:49] Who's 40, 45 that I can look up to as a mentor?

Speaker 2:
[07:53] Influencers in their 20s. But I mean, where are the 40 to 45, 38 to 45, 50 going, this is how you pursue Jesus. This is what you're serving in church. Now, I'm not saying they're not there, of course, but I am going. There's a gap. There's a void. And I think I can tell. I mean, Carrie, I spoke at Passion just a few weeks ago. And so you've got tens of thousands of young people that still listen to me. That doesn't make any natural sense. I'm not even cool. I have like no tattoos. I can't sing. I would never win. America's Got Talent or The Voice. I've got nothing going for me but Jesus. Like so that's it. But what I think they've seen maybe is someone that's walked with the Lord for 40 years and certainly not perfectly. But I've always shared my story openly. But I think they're looking, are there women that are going to finish their course still passionately in love with Jesus, still in it, like still in this adventure and saying to them, there is a better way, that this is, that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and you could do this to the end. So I kind of am really nutting through a lot of that. I've been listening to some of the things you've been saying about, which is all true, younger women have opportunities in the marketplace, where are those opportunities in church? And I think with Propel, we're really looking at those questions too and saying, whether you are from a complementarian background or an egalitarian background, that to me is not the conversation, because I think women could fulfill their purpose within the context.

Speaker 1:
[09:29] Women are on both sides of that too.

Speaker 2:
[09:30] Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1:
[09:31] It's not just men.

Speaker 2:
[09:32] And I serve all women on all sides of that.

Speaker 1:
[09:34] Of course, same here.

Speaker 2:
[09:35] On all sides of that. So I think the issue has more to do with purpose more than job title. And so I think for me, the bigger conversation has got to be around, are we encouraging women to fulfill their God-given purpose? And are our churches having those conversations that are enabling our women? Because I think whichever side of the egalitarian, complementarian sort of line you're on, within both contexts, women can fulfill their purpose. And so I think we've made the conversation a little bit too much about title and position rather than purpose. And, you know, I work, as you know, Nick and I travel the world with A21, we've planted churches all over the world. So in many countries that I work in, women will never, not in my lifetime, be in any kind of egalitarian context. Does that mean they can't serve God? Does that mean they can't fulfill God? I think of countries, you know, where there's the persecuted church, countries where women certainly are not afforded the same opportunities that we have here in America and in a lot of the West. So how do those women, is the gospel still true for them? How do they fulfill? What difference can Jesus make for them? How can we help churches in those contexts, help their women fulfill their God given purpose? I think we can bring some of that. I've had lots of round tables where we've brought in women from Africa and Asia and South America. And I've had those women talk to American women and Western women or women that are in the Western context and say, okay, I think maybe we should actually think about the conversation we're having, the kind of questions that we're asking. Because even some of the things we're talking about only really pertain to women that are of a certain socioeconomic demographic that are in a particular culture and that have certain rights, legal rights, opportunities. Well, the gospel is for all people everywhere. So we've got to actually even enlarge the conversation we're having about women to not only be about North American women in an evangelical context. Because that probably maybe represents what? Less than 5% of the global church. So I think we need to have.

Speaker 1:
[11:51] Which we often forget.

Speaker 2:
[11:53] There's a lot more women that are global. So I'm always looking at this through the lens of the global church. Of course, everyone knows that I'm all about moving the ball down the field. You know, whether the work that we've been able to do with A21 and rescuing the victims of human trafficking, or I'm a teaching pastor at Mariners Church in Orange County with Pastor Eric Geiger. And then also, obviously, I preach and teach around the world. So, you know, I think you could fulfill your God-given purpose in those contexts. But we've got to make sure we're asking the right questions. Because it's not just a simple, well, if we just give everyone positions and titles, we'll stay in church. Because I'm like, there's a lot of countries where that's not even an option. And there's a lot of denominations that that's not an option. So does that mean a woman can't serve?

Speaker 1:
[12:44] You know, one of the things that Barna Data shows, David Kinnaman talked about this in a previous episode, but it was women are exiting and they're exiting across all demographics from Gen Z right through to boomers. Boomers are not coming back to church after COVID. And, you know, I think the way David phrased it is, they've retired from work and they're retiring from church. And then women volunteerism is also down. And so I guess one of the questions is, do you think this is a little bit, I haven't asked this on the podcast before, but I'm just curious. And if you don't think it is, that's fine. But do you think this is consumer Christianity coming home to roost? It's like, what's in it for me rather than what do I bring to this?

Speaker 2:
[13:24] I think I agree. And again, you and I need to have 10 conversations, because I think that conversation can be had on all fronts. I listen to multiple podcasts and I obviously talk to people all the time. And it's so funny, the conversation is here. And again, I'm talking in a North American context. It's a lot more of what's in it for me. Now, in a lot of other contexts that I serve in around the world, that wouldn't even be an option because really there's nothing in it for you. So that's the given. The given is that you're entering and there's nothing in it for you. It's about what you could do. And I was listening to a particular conversation last night and it was, oh, well, you know, serving at church or doing this, what's really enough for me or my gifts or my talents. Now, there is a degree of truth to all of that. Absolutely, God's given us gifts. The scripture is full of that, to serve his body for the building up of the body. But when it becomes all about my gift, my talent, now, there's a fine line that crosses that becomes, it's not about serving the church anymore. It becomes about my gift being maximized or-

Speaker 1:
[14:37] Yes, me expressing myself.

Speaker 2:
[14:39] That's the thing. And I think that's the bigger conversation that even when we're talking about influencer culture, and I love the conversation you had with the two young Gen Z guys the other day, and-

Speaker 1:
[14:49] Oh, Luke LeFevre and Daniel McCloud, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[14:50] Yeah, you brought it up, and there was some great conversations the other week about, well, then how do churches utilize those gifts? And there's two sides to that as well, because the other side is, whoever you are that's coming into church life, there's always a proving period. We all have to go through different classes and to prove our commitment, and to be sowing, and to be giving, and to be part of the community life of the church. Not like, just because I've got a speaking gift, suddenly I came into my church and my pastor said, you're going to go on the pulpit because you're Christine Caine. And so, I mean, I've got to be like every other person that comes through church. I'm going to go through, you know, not only believer classes, but our membership classes, and I'm going to go through just like everybody else. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I be serving and saying, I will do whatever? Because that's actually got to be the attitude of a Christian. And I think because we have the luxury in more of our context to go, how can my gift be utilized? Or, you know, because I have a lot of influence in this field. Well, then, because I may be a great communicator in a social media context, it does not mean I'm called by God to be a pastor or a preacher or, you know, a teacher or an apostle or, you know, the five, whatever you believe about the Ephesians, for ministry gifts or that I've been given certain ministry gifts out of Romans or Second Peter for the building of the church. So I think even the bigger conversation has got to be, okay, when we're talking about social media, when we're talking about influencer, every Christian is an influencer because every Christian has influence. That's the bottom line, if you're a Christian, you have influence. So I think then we need to draw categories and go, what do we actually mean when we're saying that? And what does it mean to serve the body of Christ within the context of the local church? And God calls people and he sets every member in place. So what does that mean? And then what does it mean to be a witness for Christ online? As in the same way that you're a witness for Christ when you're a lawyer, or that when I was working in the corporate world. You know, is a Christian social media influencer the same as, well, I'm a lawyer that happens to be a Christian as well, therefore I have influence in my workplace. I'm a teacher that happens to be a Christian, therefore I have influence in my workplace. I just think to just slot categories and go, well, because you can do this here means you're automatically going to do this on a platform without looking at the ministry component, that we're ministers of the gospel, if you're called into that kind of local church work. I'm thinking the same thing for women. God sets every member in place and there are ministry gifts, there are other gifts of hospitality, all the other gifts that are mentioned in Romans and Corinthians. So I think that we've elevated one gift, maybe like the influencer gift or something that's not even actually listed in the Bible. And we need to look at the other 20 gifts and go, okay, these are the 20 gifts that the God himself has given to the church.

Speaker 1:
[17:50] Many of them are pretty modest.

Speaker 2:
[17:51] Well, that's what I mean from hospitality. And why are we not looking at them to the same category and saying, where can we all serve? They should actually be given because they're gifts that God gave, not gifts that we can make and we publicize. I think the conversation has to come within the context of spiritual gifts. There's a different thing with evangelizing non-believers, which is where I think a lot of the influencer gift is. It's like really being able to be a witness for Christ. And there's different gifts that God's given us for the building up of his body. And we're just throwing it all into one. And I think in the women's conversation, it can be the same thing as well. It's like, okay, can we just have a broader, longer conversation and put lots of things up on a whiteboard and go, what are we exactly talking about? Because when it comes to maybe even preaching and teaching, well, even, Paul writes, some are called to be prophets, pastors, evangelists, teachers, not all. Many more, 99.9% are called to be witnesses for Christ in the marketplace. So why are we convoluting both of those things rather than saying these some are supposed to be equipping these most and all of it is valid in the kingdom of God because the whole earth is the Lord. So I say all that to you to go, I just think we can have a broader conversation and find that I know at Propel, we are very committed to saying, my job, if God has called me to preach and teach is to train and equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. So how am I training and equipping women that within this sphere of influence, they are flourishing, thriving, and ultimately being witnesses? Because that's what Jesus said, you're going to receive power to be witnesses for the gospel. And so to me, more than fulfilling my goal, or am I using just my gifts or am I doing what I want or what I'm best at? You know, we've planted churches, Kerry, in Warsaw, in Sofia, Bulgaria, Thessaloniki, Greece. I'm telling you those pastors are not sitting around going, am I just doing the thing that I love to do most? Because 99.9% of what they're doing is probably what they don't want to do. But for the sake of the kingdom, and they've laid down their lives for Christ, that's what they're doing. So, you know.

Speaker 1:
[20:11] No, it's really helpful. And I mean, Barna's doing a deep dive on the data about why women are leaving the church. So we'll have answers maybe end of the year, next year. But I'm really curious because I think, you know, I'm not leading a local church right now. But if I was, I would be looking at our data to see, are we matching that trend? Are we bucking it? What is, where is the leak in the system? And so before we wrap up and get on to other subjects, do you have anything else on women leaving the church that you want to note, knowing that there's a lot of church leaders listening right now? Anything else that comes to mind?

Speaker 2:
[20:46] And I know you've covered this and you've got some great interviews, but I mean, there is no doubt that not valuing the voice of women, not platforming women and giving them visibility, all of these things are factors. And so they should be because Jesus valued women and Jesus platformed women. And in fact, in Luke 8 verses one to three, when it talks about the, it's almost like we forget that. We always preach Luke 7, the woman that poured the oil over Jesus when he's at Simon's house and that's so beautiful. And he forgave this woman because she was so broken and so marginalized. Well, you know, three verses later, he's traveling and preaching and teaching and it says, he was with the apostles and many women who funded his ministry out of their own means. So I'm going, listen, in the same verses, yes, there are broken women to whom Jesus gives value and dignity. And we always elevate those women and thank God, because I was one of those, of course, with my background of abuse and abandonment and rejection. And also, I was in the other women as well. So can you be successful? Well, apparently, they didn't have the Billy Graham rule because Jesus was a single man traveling and there was Joanna, the wife of Chusa, that was, she's obviously a married woman with means, that traveled as part of his preaching team, that funded his ministry out of her own means, along with many other women, the scripture says in Luke 8.3. So I'm saying they were obviously successful, financially independent, women of generosity that funded the mission of Jesus as he traveled. So there is room for all of them, the poor, the broken, the marginalized, and the successful, and the leadership gurus. And so I want all of those women to say, we are all in the mission of God. So expanding the mission of God to go beyond one hour on a Sunday, to saying the other 167 hours of a week when we're out there, we are carriers of the gospel. And so how can we do that in the best way? So of course, if you are not giving women any kind of visibility, I know at our church, we are so intentional with our formation of women. And so you see it. So our peers are full of women, and women contribute at every level of church life, and they keep coming because then a woman will not be sort of thinking twice about, will I even invite a friend from work to church? Because she's going to go back into the dark ages. I'll give you just one small story. But a woman that I'm very involved in and have been for 20 years was the vice president of a global, if I told you the name, you would know, huge insurance, global company, multiplied billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars of budget. It's so huge. And yet, it comes into church and the pastor's like, I'll just call her Sally. Sally, when you really want to do real ministry, then you can come and you can be on the church finance team, of which probably the whole budget of the church was like a petty cash budget for one day. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:
[24:05] It was a travel allowance for a recent trip.

Speaker 2:
[24:07] And all I thought is what a wasted resource. Now, I've got that person on my board and you're wondering why A21 is all around the world. And because I'm like, I welcome, please bring those voices in because they desperately want to advance the kingdom. They want to use their gifts and talents to serve the kingdom. They love God, they honor God. So that thought and there's so much of it. It's changing, but I'm 60, so are you. So our generation and above was sort of like, oh, sweetie, you're okay. There was well-meaning, well-intentioned, just extremely ignorant and what a waste of a whole generation. And so I'm not even sure for most people, and it would be in some streams of the church, definitely it's a bit of a theological issue. So it's just kind of like, they have no category to put a woman to do that. But truly for most of the church, and I travel the world and I'm across a lot of streams, it's more ignorance and a lack of intentionality than anything deliberate. But I know for most women, and I think long and hard about who am I going to invite where? Because I meet different women on the road and if I'm in different places, I'm thinking, where would I actually tell you to go to church in your city? Because you're going to think you've gone back to the handmaiden's tale. You're going to be like, what on earth just happened? It's not about even this role or this function, it's truly the lack of dignity and the lack of value. I think if I have to sum it up, because this was not going to be our discussion, I think I'll hijack you.

Speaker 1:
[25:45] No, it's not. We'll get to our discussion at some point, I'm sure.

Speaker 2:
[25:47] I think that if at a pastoral level, the initial discussion has really got to be, do we truly value women? Do we truly dignify them? And now let's be ruthless and rip apart everything that we're doing and say, are we speaking out of both sides of our mouth? Are we saying we value and we dignify women? But the reality is in terms of visibility, function, inclusion in sermon illustrations, how many texts did I preach out of 52 Sundays that are solely men? Did I preach and are the only texts about women, the fact that they're all like loose floozies and Jesus forgives you? Is there maybe something else that the Bible has to say about value and dignity? Is it just the token Mother's Day sermon? We'll get someone up who may or may not even be anointed to preach, but we're just going to put them up because we think it's a body, it's a female body. And I'm like, that's not helping.

Speaker 1:
[26:56] You're preaching, Christine, you're preaching. Let's move the ball down the court.

Speaker 2:
[26:59] It's not like, you know, so what intentional pipelines and pathways do we have in our churches that go right down to the nursery, that go a woman can walk in this, be born into this place, and there is an intentional pipeline and pathway to her development in the kingdom of God, whether she wants to be a stay-at-home mom, home schooling five kids, or whether she wants to be a corporate CEO in this house, there are pipelines and pathways of value, dignity, and leadership development. And really my intention in this part of my life, the next decade, is to help churches, denominations, and pastors all around the world do that. Go even within your theological structure. How can we create pipelines and pathways with the intentionality to help develop women in the church?

Speaker 1:
[27:50] That is so helpful. And I'm glad I asked. I'm glad we had this conversation. But I also want to flip it a little bit, Christine, and ask you a little more personally. Like being of our generation, Yeah. You've seen things change, maybe not change enough, but I'm guessing you ran into a lot of obstacles Yeah. as a female preacher, as someone who has a call on her life. So I'd like to know what are some of the obstacles you experienced in your life? And then why aren't you one of the deconverted? Why aren't you one of the people who say, I love Jesus, just not doing the church? Because you're deeply engaged in the local church.

Speaker 2:
[28:31] Yes, very much.

Speaker 1:
[28:32] So why didn't you become a statistic?

Speaker 2:
[28:34] Yeah, great question. Well, first of all, let's just say the grace of God.

Speaker 1:
[28:37] Yes, yes, to all of us. That is a given. It's covering me, it's covering you.

Speaker 2:
[28:42] But grace and mercy, truly. So that is first and foremost, and not just a flippant statement, that is absolutely the grounding of that. But also, and I think, Kerry, I want to be careful because I do know so many women that have just been so deeply hurt. So I don't ever want to dismiss that or diminish that. I don't want to appear that I'm not sensitive to that. Here's a couple, and I don't have just the church thing. I come from a staunch Greek Orthodox culture, and I'm 60. So back in the day, I was born in 1966. Women were overtly secondary. I mean, my brothers were everything. We were definitely down on the totem pole.

Speaker 1:
[29:25] So even back to childhood, it was like, oh, not a son.

Speaker 2:
[29:28] Cultural thing as well as then the church thing. Here is one of the greatest gifts when I really got saved because it was in Australia. And in the context that I was in, I was the immigrant girl from quite a lower socioeconomic kind of suburb that I came from, government housing. You put all those things together. I had been abused. So I was not anybody wanted. I wasn't who you see today. I was like just, and I got saved. And then someone took me to a Pentecostal church. So great, we were the ragamuffins. We were all the ones nobody wanted. We were the poor, the immigrants, the women. Like it was just, it threw us all in there together. And so we were like in a warehouse. This was, you know, 1980s. Like nobody was even thinking about us. We were nobody. So then this is the gift. Beggars can't be choosers. No one was sitting around going, okay, what gender are you and what gift can we use? It's like, we're desperate. God is moving. People need to be saved. We were already such a mess. We were like just one inch above in front of the person that was on drugs or the person that was broken. We were just like one day more saved. And so you didn't care. No one was asking what seminary degree did you have? It's like, do you know Jesus? Do you have a pulse? Get out there. You know, it was kind of that. Now, I'm saying that a little bit tongue in cheek, but not much, because it was a gift. So it was that meant that my obvious either communication gift, or leadership gift, and I'd say both are as strong as each other, very quickly were put to good use, because nobody was thinking, you can't do that because you're a woman. It was just, and I lived in the era, and girls, some of you, I know, I'm almost scared to say this in 2026, but it was just, you had to suck it up back then. It was, Chris, you're the best guy for the job. You're the best. And I got that all through the 80s and 90s. I'm sorry. It's just-

Speaker 1:
[31:30] No, that's fair. I mean, we're just telling stories. We're telling what happened.

Speaker 2:
[31:34] Chris is the best man for the job. Okay. I saw that. I mean, did I sit down and think, well, of course, in today's lens, my gosh, that would be a cancelling thing. Yeah. Okay. Now, and I'm not saying it's right, but what I am saying is I could see God in it, and that it was like the Lord's opening this door. I've got an opportunity. So absolutely in the 1990s when I was being raised in leadership, was I the only woman at every table? Yes. I was the denominational head of our particular denomination in Australia. I was the head of the youth movement to this day, which is not a great testimony, but I'm still the only woman that has ever held that role. Big youth events, tens of thousands of young people in stadiums and rallying all the denominations, all of that stuff. Well, so I was the only woman. And if you want to talk about sexism, I could not repeat on your podcast the things that I've heard.

Speaker 1:
[32:32] I'm sure that's true.

Speaker 2:
[32:34] And in 2020, I'm not saying any of it was right. But when Joseph was in prison, it wasn't right either. When Joseph was falsely accused in Potiphar's house, it wasn't right either. But the scripture says, but the Lord was with Joseph. This is fresh because I just preach this a passion. And I'm not in any way justifying anything that is not right. But if my future in God is dependent on somebody else's sanctification, I am never ever going to fulfill my God-given destiny. Because if I wait for them to get it right, to say it right, to think right, which is what so much of our social media thing is doing, if I could just change their mind. And I'm like, honey, if the Holy Spirit of God cannot sanctify them at this rate right now, I'm not going to be able to. So what I'm looking for is what Joseph did. Where's the God opportunity in this? Where did God open a door? And so while everyone else is saying, you know, I'm not going to do that because this isn't right because of ABC. Now, of course, let me put the disclaimer, because again, that's something where I am not in any way talking about any form of abuse, any form of violence, anything illegal. That's a given, so that's a given. Outside of that though, if it's, well, you know, he's just a misogynist or this person is insecure or they're ego driven or they're just a narcissist. Well, that's really a sanctification issue. And that's up to the Holy Spirit. And I am not going to let that thwart me. And I'm not going to waste my one and only life on this earth, trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit in that person's life. I'm going to look for where's God opened it up for me. And I'm going to walk. And then I know the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in me. So I have agency, regardless of what they think. And I'm saying that to you as a 60 year old that runs a global anti-trafficking organization that speaks globally, that that does what I do. So there might be some merit to what I'm saying is what I'm trying to tell people at this point is that if you are going to just spend your one and only life trying to do the job of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives, you're going to be so disappointed you will, you will deconstruct, you will walk away. But I was never deluded to think that those people were God or that my destiny was in their hands. I knew no matter what role they had over me, and obviously they did, I knew that my destiny, my purpose was in the hands of God, and that promotion doesn't come from the north, south, east or west, it comes from God, and that God opens doors, no man can shut. Does that mean I've had to keep my mouth shut at times when things were said to me that were just, and again, I'm not talking about anything abusive, I'm just talking about whether it's narcissistic, whether it's just, you know, pessimistic, all of those sort of, fallen human nature. Absolutely. Was I overlooked time and time again? And was I more skilled and, you know, probably a better fit for certain things and wasn't given those roles because a man was? Yes, I could name multitudes of those. But why would I waste my time doing that? Because I'm now 60, so there's a 40-year journey, I can tell you. And I'm thinking five big, big promotions in my life that have brought me to where you see me now. None of those men are still in ministry, that are there. None.

Speaker 1:
[35:58] Wow. Quare or disqualified?

Speaker 2:
[36:00] Both. Yes, in both cases. And so, but I imagine now, imagine if I let them because of either their narcissism or their misogyny or their, imagine if I so internalize that, that I thought, I'm giving up on God and the church. Well, I'm where God wants me, and they're responsible before the Lord. Now, for the abusive things, of course, thank God. Thank God for the awakening in the church in the last decade. That is happening. Thank God for the reckoning, and that people are being held to account, and that we have, thank God for the calling out. I mean, listen, I have been a voice for the voiceless, for my entire ministry life, and especially for the victims of human trafficking, and so abusive behaviour in churches, thank God that's come to the forefront. But the truth is, that's not going to be most people's experience, most women. Now, it needs to be front and centre for what it is. Most women are going to come across basic fall in human nature, you know, we use the language narcissism, we use the language misogyny, we use the language whether people are just mean or unkind or unloving. That's what you're mostly going to come up across and that's what's going to make you want to quit and things that are just unjust and not fair and you're like, why is he promoted just because he's a guy? I've been doing all the work and he's recognised, but I see those things as tests from God. And I have found God has promoted me, despite in some cases, some people not wanting to. It's like, I don't know, the Lord did this. And the good news is if God puts you here, God keeps you here. If you put yourself there, you have to keep yourself there. So I'm never looking over my shoulder. I'm not trying to stress myself out. I'm like, God put me here. And you can tell me I'm not the most talented. I know, you can tell me I'm the most not the most eloquent. I know, but I didn't put myself here. And throughout scripture, we always teach, you know, that God will use the unqualified, He'll take nobodies and make them somebodies. And then, we get so offended when God does it. We really do. So, Carey, there's my kind of... So, I'm saying all that to go to the girls, hang in there. No, you know, hang in there. For the stuff that is just falling human nature, meaning people are just mean, unkind, their own sinful pride or arrogance or narcissism. Don't let that cut you out of the race. I mean, seriously, I always just think, you know, I think I just outlasted the devil. And so I'm still here.

Speaker 1:
[38:37] I'm just trying to be quiet to let you run because, man, that's so refreshing and a unique take. So we've talked about our age and stage, the big year, your birthday. I want to suggest you're 60 going on 18 when it comes to energy. Oh my goodness. Like if somebody didn't know and was listening to watching this, they'd be like, who's this kid waiting to get lead out of the box? What are you doing? Because this was something I noticed when I was in my 30s. I'm like, by the time you get to our stage of life, a lot of people are out of gas, out of life. It's a series of every year. I do less. It's not like 60 new things now that I'm 60. It's like 60 things I used to do and don't do anymore. And I was determined not to do that. And so I've got my own version of how to be at my best, et cetera. But I'd love to know like, you honestly, every time I've encountered you, on stage, off stage, in interviews, you're just the energizer bunny. Like you go and go and go and go. What are you doing that is fueling your energy and your joy and your passion these days?

Speaker 2:
[39:52] For sure. You know, I love that. And you know, I've always had this theory that the longer we walk with the Lord, the more exciting it ought to be. Like I can't imagine how you could be getting closer to the finish line. If we say that we have fixed our eyes on Jesus, the author and the finisher of our faith, how are you going to be getting closer to the finishing line and not be more excited and not be more energized and not have more of a glint in your eye? I've known him for almost four decades longer than I did when I was 20. So this is like phenomenal. And I'm getting closer to that finish line. So even all the stuff that is really deeply challenging, it's like, okay, I'm closer to the end than I am to the beginning. If I want to finish strong.

Speaker 1:
[40:39] Sometimes I do think about that.

Speaker 2:
[40:40] It's like, I want to finish well.

Speaker 1:
[40:42] A comforting thought.

Speaker 2:
[40:43] And I think I've had to learn to navigate very early on, and especially helping to rescue the victims of human trafficking. The reality is, I've been privy to the darkest stories of evil for two decades plus. Things I could never say here. When Nick and I get our reports from our offices, and I could tell you last night what I was reading from our offices in Asia. And I mean, it would be overwhelming. It is so evil what is done to children and what human nature is capable of. I know we see so much in the news here, and I think and there is still more evil. There's still more evil even than that. So I had to, and I've got two daughters. So I had to very early on, and I started at age 21 right when I had Sophia. So it was right then going, God, I'm going to have to find a way, either I'm going to become neurotic and very fearful, or I'm going to have a mental breakdown because this is just too much to be able to process. So I learned then, my shoulders are not broad enough to carry the suffering of the world or even the injustices that we see. I have to put them on shoulders that are bigger than mine to carry. And of course that's only Jesus' shoulders at Calvary could carry that kind of suffering and evil. So I learned very early on, I can't take on the burden of the darkness and the evil, but I know where to put it really quickly. Even, and I think that's how I could cope on social media and whatever is, it doesn't seem to affect me quite like it affects others because I very quickly put it to the only one that can do anything about it ultimately, which is Jesus, rather than bearing the burden because his burden is easy and his yoke is light. So anytime it doesn't get easy in that way, I mean the burden, of course I work hard, but it feels heavy, then I know I'm carrying something Jesus never called me to carry. So instantly, I'm going to go to him. And I have probably said over my life, I love to confess scripture, Isaiah 40, 31, for about 30 years. And I'll say it, I'll change the wording a little bit for me and put my name in it. But it's like, Christine, you know that if you wait upon the Lord, you will renew your strength. Christine, you will mount up on wings like eagles. Christine, you will run and not grow weary. Christine, you will walk and not faint. And I say that to myself all the time. And I'm like, you know what? I am not going to get weary. It doesn't mean I'm immune from suffering, pain, mistakes, loss, grief. I'm married for 30 years and all the beauty and the challenges that that brings. I've got a 24 year old and a 20 year old. So there's the reality of that. I have hundreds of staff in, we deliver services in 22 countries. I mean, that alone is an issue with A21. Plus what I do, you know, for women around the world. So the fact is that if I let that overwhelm me, then it starts to get heavy, then I know somewhere I'm out of sync. Again, I can't limit, I also am careful what I listen to. Remember it was 12 leaders, Kerry, that went into the Promised Land. 12 leaders that Moses sent in in Numbers 13. And of those 12, 10 came back with a negative report. It wasn't, the people didn't die in the wilderness really of their own volition. They died in the wilderness because of the negative report of 10 leaders. So I'm very careful what leaders I listen to. And the promise was there for everybody. So everybody should have gone into that promised land, but not everyone did. And really a lot of this is the thesis of my book, Flourish, because I'm going in Psalm 92, it says, even in old age, you will keep flourishing. Those that are planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish and they will bear fruit even in their old age. And David wrote, you know, that I am like a flourishing olive tree in the house of God. When he was being chased and betrayed and almost killed and depressed and hiding in a cave. So I'm going, what does it mean? Because our generation in the church, in the Western church, is not seeing great examples of people flourishing to the end. And I pray, I want to be one of those. So I'm like, if God says we're to flourish, of course Genesis 1, the mandate is, you know, go forth, multiply, reproduce, have dominion, flourishing Jesus. John 10, 10, I came that you might have life and life more abundant, he came that we would have a flourishing life. And then we, and of course I'm not ever talking about amassing, acquiring or accumulating more things. I'm talking about what comes out of your life, i.e. love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, self-control, all the things that we're not seeing in the world today. I'm going, whatever happened to this flourishing? Cause obviously we're not flourishing. You look on social media and go, whoa, that is not the fruit of the spirit. I don't know what fruit that is, but you're not producing the fruit of the spirit. But we should be. If we, as Christians, if we're becoming Christ-like, it's not about how much Bible knowledge or Bible memorization do we have. It's how much of the spirit of God are we producing? Are we flourishing? Are we rooted and grounded in Christ? And then in that, the kingdom of God, there's so much talk in our world and the narrative of justice about what the kingdom of God is. Of course I'm all about justice. I run a global anti-trafficking organization. But the kingdom of God, Paul says, righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Ghost. So to me, if a leader is not walking in righteousness, is not filled with the joy and the peace of the Holy Spirit, you could be running 100 church services, you could be running big justice operations, you can be on the right side of every issue, but really you're bringing the kingdom of God to earth. So I could be running A21 and speaking around the world, but really if I'm not about righteousness, joy, and peace, how much of the kingdom am I really bringing to this earth? And so I think there's a lot to be said about righteousness as a fruit of flourishing, and the righteous will flourish, the Bible says, and joy and peace. And of course in there when I'm dissecting the olive tree and the olive branch and peacemaking, there would be something really wrong if I'd been running A21 for 20 years, preaching and teaching for 40 years, and I had less peace and less joy today. My daughters would look at me and go, is this thing real? What are you even talking about? And so I want to say to the body that, could we not be so overwhelmed by this world? And let's be careful how much of the language of the therapeutic culture that we're picking up, that we're leaving God out of this, and the power of God to bring transformation into our lives.

Speaker 1:
[47:31] What are some of the terms, phrases, concepts, of the therapeutic culture that you would say are overused or maybe inconsistent with the gospel? Like, what are you seeing and hearing that you would say, no, that's not flourishing?

Speaker 2:
[47:49] For sure. And I think, you know, you're talking to someone that so believes in therapy. Yes, I want to say that I'm from...

Speaker 1:
[47:54] Oh, me too. I've been in therapy for decades.

Speaker 2:
[47:56] We employ therapists all over the world, so I thank God for it. But we also must not forget that Isaiah says, one of the names of Jesus is wonderful capital C counselor. And it's like we have forgotten our capital C counselor. So, let me just give you an example that was in the ministry space, in the pastoral space. I'm on a pastoral team. I'm a teaching pastor. And so, I do so many leadership conferences around the World Church. I'm going to leave here to do one in London with the Anglican Church very soon. So, here is the deal. When I hear, and I'm hearing it increasingly in podcasts, I think this was in an effort to correct something that was really wrong, and to show our parishioners that we are accountable, and that we're getting help, and we're self-aware. But the number of times I hear a preacher in their preaching go, last week when I was talking to my therapist, when I was in the counseling room, okay, so it's almost like a rite of passage now. I have got to say in every sermon that when I was talking to my therapist, I thought there was a day when I came to church because I actually wanted you to be talking to God. I've come here, could you tell me? And it's almost like because, and particularly in my stream of the church, there has been such an abuse of God said, I was talking to God. I understand that. So I do want to say I totally understand that. But the overcorrection is so much that we have turned, I'm talking to my therapist into, now that is my stock standard. Now I don't know if your therapist is a self-appointed spiritual director, is it someone that actually went to the school for the, you know, like, I mean, there are so many coaching certificates that you can get online that, so that doesn't really tell me anything anyway. What does that even mean? So I just think it's almost like we're saying, well, I've got God and I've got my Bible reading, but I really need you to know that I'm also doing ABCD. It can be a good thing, but let's not make, let's ensure that we're still, people come because they want to hear from God. I'm assuming they're thinking, I've been in a prayer closet with the Lord and the word that I'm bringing is because something that I've had an impression that the Lord wants me to bring. I go to church because I know my senior pastor prays over our calendar. It earnestly goes away and we do our teaching roster a year out. Some people go, well, you're leaving no room for the Holy Spirit. I love what Pastor Eric says. He goes, your God's too limited. My God transcends time. He's in the future. He already knows what we're doing for the next, and I love that. It's like he goes, I've got a big view of God, not a small view of God.

Speaker 1:
[50:31] I'm with Eric on that one.

Speaker 2:
[50:32] Me too. Listen, I come from a total different background, but I have learned to love this and I get my teaching texts like everybody else. For me, it's a good check and balance because I'm on a team, I get a text, I have to do the work, I'm part of it. So much else of what I do around the world is what I bring. So it's a form of accountability, it's I'm monitored, I send my sermon in ahead of time, all the things. I think that is a really good check and balance to keep me on track. I say that to go a lot of times where we've become so used to language. If we're not careful, we're calling everybody a narcissist. Well, do we really know what the clinical diagnosis of a narcissist really is before we tend to use that word? Because if someone may be just having a bad day, if someone maybe has a character flaw, are they really a narcissist? Well, I don't know. I'm not qualified. I haven't gone to school to be able to diagnose someone and say that's what you are. But I've got 22-year-olds throwing out these huge words and I'm like, just because your boss wants you at work at nine because that's the time you start getting paid, does not mean they're toxic. Just because they may, I'm just saying like, so everything is toxic, everything's narcissistic, everything's this or that because we've learned some words. I'm like, okay, we've got to be really careful because where are you being formed spiritually? For me, going to work and having to rub shoulders with other people, it was stuff that formed me. Having to be told things I didn't like about my job. And those things form me. But if everything is toxic, if everything is stressful, how am I building resilience into a culture? How am I building strength into the next generation? So I think what happens is there's been this shift so much that God wants me to be happy. Therefore, here's a simple thing, okay? So I was working with the staff of another organization and I was doing a one-on-one interview and this person was telling me in the early 20s, well, you know, I love serving and they were using the word serving. And I said, can I just ask a question? Are you doing extended hours outside of what you're paid to do? They sort of looked at me like, no, you know, like whatever that. And I said, so what you're telling me is you are paid to work a 38-hour week, but you're calling that serving. I said, well, that's not serving. That's actually, you're being paid to do a job, so it's probably right that your boss wants you to do that job and that there are, there's KPIs and that, you know, when you have your assessments, it's not like this isn't called serving. And I'm going, we need to get this right because that then affects church, affects volunteerism in the community. If we're thinking, me just turning up to get paid for what I do is called serving, I'm like, so what's working? So where's your job? So what is, it's these sort of things that I'm thinking, okay, terms and language, and we're almost thinking, like, there is a place you come to work to do a job to be paid, to be remunerated at the right rate, but this is not where you're coming to get your therapy, and this is not where you're coming to get your, I don't know, you're relaxing, or you're joined necessarily for everything that you want. It is just an odd thing to me. I go, so all those scriptures in the Bible about you don't work, you don't eat, about going to work, about you being, I said, we've had this great conversation in the last 10 years about the responsibility of leaders and bosses, really great conversations, extremely necessary. I've had to make adjustments, everyone's had to make adjustments, that's wonderful. I go, but there are equally as many scriptures in the Bible about the responsibility of workers and the responsibility, not just of shepherds, but also of sheep. I said, so where are we going to now start having some of those conversations? Because those are all the same scriptures in the same Bible, and so we've all got this accountability and responsibility. I think what has happened is we've had either a lot of people that maybe are not in leadership positions and have never been, trying to say to a leader, this is how you should be, and I'm like, based on what experience, or what knowledge, or what. Then because there's some language that can be used around either toxic leadership culture or around narcissistic kind of leadership, and I'm like, wow, you're just throwing around terms, but this used to be called coming to work and getting paid for doing a job. Someone actually asking you to present the reports is not mean and it's not, that's just what you're supposed to do because it's your job. I think that's what I'm saying. We've allowed some of that language to co-opt our spiritual formation. I just think the pendulum swung a whole lot that way. It needed to start swinging, no doubt. It's just that it didn't stop in the middle. It kept going. Now, I'm thinking there's this shift back. Intuitively, I think people know it's right, and people that are really walking with the spirit, and the people sitting in our pews, and the people in our organizations, they know it's right. It's just we've had a big 10 years of it swinging the other way.

Speaker 1:
[56:00] Yeah. There's a satisfaction in hard work. There's a satisfaction in going over and above. There's a joy that comes from work. Some of my favorite things to preach are series on work. And there are equal admonitions for bosses and also for workers.

Speaker 2:
[56:20] Absolutely. And I think in the flourishing thing, I'm trying to put some of that back. Like flourishing doesn't mean that we're sitting down looking at the butterflies all day.

Speaker 1:
[56:30] Sitting on a beach.

Speaker 2:
[56:31] What we've done is had so much of this conversation, which is so important. Like God is not a harsh God. There's beauty in the world and there's truth. And let's use our imagination. All of that is really important. But that's not how the world operates only. Flourishing in our workplaces and having a real firm commitment to showing up and doing what God has called us to do. We've gone the other way. And so part of it is languishing. So you see that, this real sort of meh attitude, I don't really care that you go. That's why those of us that are sort of tuning into this revival, the silent revival, the quiet revival they're calling in England and the things that you've been even focusing on your podcast, the universities and what's happening in churches, we're seeing it. But the reason we need to be showcasing that is because there has become sort of such a languishing. It's not even having the energy not to care. It's just like an indifferent, like people are just like, yeah, it's just this existing, this bland. We all sort of went so out there, 2016, 17, 18, 19, 20, everyone was just angry about everything. And it's sort of like, that's not going to make a difference. I'm just not really going to worry about the world. I'm not really that worried about church and if people are going to come and people aren't going to come. It's just this sort of meh, kind of like I don't...

Speaker 1:
[57:57] Yeah, passive, passive.

Speaker 2:
[57:58] Yeah, very much.

Speaker 1:
[57:59] I'm not sure what you're trying to say, passivity.

Speaker 2:
[58:01] Yeah, and I'm sort of, I think I wrote the flourishing to go, I want to speak to that passivity and go, we were actually created to flourish. It's in us and it's time. I mean, we're in 2026. You know, Gary, I mean, I'm at a leadership conference not long ago and I'm asking, you know, a normal question, pastors, leaders, house, church, whatever. And they're like, to think that I would still get this comment in this year. Well, you know, Chris, before COVID, so I've got, then I know we're going to talk about numbers. It's either going to be how many on a Sunday.

Speaker 1:
[58:31] You were doing great seven years ago.

Speaker 2:
[58:34] Kerry, there was a day where BC stood for before Christ, not before COVID, that was a day where we were like, okay, everybody, week please, it's time to move on and start flourishing. And this to me is going to be so important for Gen Z. They've got to see us flourishing and think, this thing's worth going all the way through, because they've seen people maybe go to their 40s. And then you listen to so many, you know, of either the people that have, whatever they've done, you know, just walked away or deconstructed. If they're the only conversations they're hearing about, this is what happens at 40. I'm like, no, you need to hear, no, no, no, because if you can push through some of that, this is what it could look like at 60. And this is, and I think that's what they're wanting to see.

Speaker 1:
[59:21] Well, one of your key points is that pruning is important. Use the metaphor of olive trees, olive oil, et cetera. But, and we know that, right, from scripture, John 15, et cetera, that pruning is important. I look back at this point in my life, and if there's good in my life today, which there is, probably came from pruning. And it was really painful at the time, and I resisted it. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about the value of pruning, and what is the difference between when God is pruning you, but it might feel like God is breaking you?

Speaker 2:
[59:57] Yes, I think that's very good. And I think any of us that are doing anything, that has any longevity in the kingdom have gone through, it's not a once and done, different pruning seasons in our life. And it could hit, sometimes it's relationally, sometimes it's-

Speaker 1:
[60:10] He's still pruning me, absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[60:12] I'll give you a great example. I think this might sum it up and really help people even organizationally as well. I remember at the beginning of 2024, so now we're in 2026, so two years ago. It was right around this time, January, you know, your vision to all your staff. I've got all of our offices on, I've been calling, we meet on Zoom like a lot of people, and I call it the Upper Zoom Room. So I've been calling it for the last five years, where we're going to the Upper Zoom Room. I didn't even know, you know, when you say things as a leader and then you go, oh my gosh, Lord, this is what I wish. I wish that's not what I meant. But I mean, I was talking about the pruning because I really knew it was going to be an intentional season of pruning. I was reading the text where it says, those branches that don't bear fruit are going to be thrown into the fire. And then it says that Jesus said, and those branches that bear fruit will also be pruned. And I'm saying to our team, well, guys, this is the year of pruned if you do, pruned if you don't, it's just pruning all around. I said, so the easy pruning, organizationally, and even in our own lives, is the obvious stuff that's not bearing fruit anymore. You just kind of go, yeah, that's not even, you're going to do it, I can cut.

Speaker 1:
[61:25] This branch is dead.

Speaker 2:
[61:26] That's it.

Speaker 1:
[61:27] Pretty easy.

Speaker 2:
[61:28] It's not growing like the others. If I've got to make my choices, I could cut the budget to that ministry. You can do that. The hardest thing is the stuff that's bearing fruit. When it comes to our age, and I think this is where it works with the Lord too. When I first got saved, the pruning, dear Lord, there was overt stuff that needed to be pruned. It was ungodly. Forty years later, now unless I'm hiding anything, which I don't know to be in my life, there's nothing that I obviously look at today and go, man, that is a sinful thing that has to stop tomorrow. Okay, it's not so much that. So God has to reveal what that is, because obviously I'm not perfect, and he has a way of doing that. That's the stuff where you go, I didn't even know that was buried down there. And that's those seasons. And normally that'll happen through something relational or something, maybe in ministry because we're all in ministry, that doesn't go the way you knew it could have gone, and God gets your attention through that thing, and you're like, wow, and then it begins something internally. Deeply painful because mostly by this stage, you're not really expecting it unless you're living any kind of double life.

Speaker 1:
[62:38] Double life or whatever, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[62:40] If you're not doing that, by and large, you're getting up, having a quiet time, you're trying to love everybody, you're trying to be nice to your spouse. Generally, you're trying to be a good person. So the Lord then goes, and again, it's always for purpose. If you want to keep bearing fruit, Chris, after 60, there's some things, deep layers down in your heart that are going to have to be dealt with so that you can find greater areas of freedom for me to do what I need to do through you in the future. So I think part of why maybe we stop wanting to even flourish at our age too, is because you go, I don't feel like going there again.

Speaker 1:
[63:15] I have not arrived. I think I've arrived, right?

Speaker 2:
[63:19] I've had that thought and I'm like, I know it's going to be painful and I don't want to because here's the difference for us now. We are a little bit more cognizant of the pain involved. It's like when I had my first baby, I was so ignorant man, I'm going in there, I'm going to pop this thing out in five minutes, and then the contraction hits. By the second baby, I'm not that cocky anymore because I'm like, okay, we're going to get this.

Speaker 1:
[63:42] You're like, this hurt.

Speaker 2:
[63:44] But there's going to be some, and it's almost like that with pruning at this point. It's, I want what's on the other side, but I'm deeply aware that this is going to hurt. And so I think sometimes you just go, oh, I'm still going to get into heaven without having to do that. So you go, I mean, I almost think it's selfish. It's like, I don't want to keep growing. I don't want to keep flourishing. I'm really happy. And sometimes you can actually spiritualise it. Well, you know, it's not all about up and to the right, and it's not all about growing. And yet I agree with all of those things. Your value, your significance, your security should never come from those things, but you should be producing fruit until you cross the finish line. But we're called to, there is no, of course our bodies change. I'm not always going to be running at this pace. You know, you call me the energiser bunny. Well, for however long God gives me this, but I didn't compare my calendar this year with last year. I'm not saying how many times did I say, I really am not. But I don't want to leave nothing on the table this year. I want to do everything God's called me to do and next year. And that might look different. By God's grace, I pray I finish strong and healthy. But if I end up in a hospital bed and that's the way, well, I want to be fruitful there with the doctor, as I'm witnessing the person, whatever it might look like, just because it's not always up and to the right does not give you an excuse to stop doing everything. And I think that's where the selfishness comes in. It's like, well, I've earned this now. I can just, and I'm like, oh, what? Jesus bought my salvation. I'm supposed to do this till the day I die, just because the world says, now you've earned your retirement package and you can golf your way to heaven. When I become presumptuous, something then has died in my heart. When I start thinking, well, I deserve this. I've been serving for 40 years. I'm going, at that moment, I'm no longer pursuing Christ. It's got nothing to do with how busy my schedule is. It's got everything to do with the posture of my heart. That's really where the whole flourishing thing comes out of. Unlike the more I commit to the pruning process as painful as it is, and we have gone through the biggest pruning in the last two years, but the best already as this year's kicked in. I'm like, Lord, I can't believe what you've done and the fruit, and I pray to his will, I think it is that I'm going to play a part in this end time harvest, whatever you want to call it, this great revival, this is what is ever happening on the earth right now. I have not come this far to only come this far. I have sown prayers and traveled the world and preached the gospel in over a hundred countries for decades, not so that I can just tap out now. I'm like, oh, I'm watching what God's doing and I want to, whatever part, even if it's like on the sidelines praying, I'm going to be playing my part in this. I call it the Hezekiah syndrome. Carrie, this is what's really scary and I think to a lot of leaders, this is the moment we're in. It's, you know, King Hezekiah, scripture tells us in 2nd Kings, he was such a great king, there was none like him. But in Isaiah 39, that chapter, every pastor listening to this ought to go and read it after this podcast.

Speaker 1:
[67:00] It's chilling.

Speaker 2:
[67:01] It's, he goes Hezekiah after he's done it all right. I mean, this is the dude that prayed so hard. You know, the Syrian army was wiped out and he prayed so hard that God gave him 15 extra years. I mean, he reversed a prophecy. Isaiah, the prophet came and said, you're done. And he reversed a prophecy through the power of his faith and prayer. The son moved back 10 degrees. That's how much power and faith he had. I don't know what happened between Isaiah 37, 38 and then chapter 39, where Hezekiah invites the Babylonians in, starts showing a man, look at everything that I've got. Look at, not look what God's done, but look at everything that I've got. Look at my achievements, man. If we put it in modern day vernacular, look at my brand, look at my followers, look at my downloads, look as if we had anything to do with any of this. He's like, look at it. Then when Isaiah comes and prophesies, obviously, that your children are going to be taken into captivity, this is all over, Babylon's going to rule you. Now, you would think the same dude that got on his face in chapter 37 and 38, and prayed, and God then wiped out the Assyrians, and then God gave him his life an extra 15 years. You would think he would get back on his face and say, I'm so sorry, let's stop. No, no, no. But he says to me, the two saddest scriptures in the Bible, I'll tell you the second one in a minute, this is the saddest one in Isaiah 39, where Hezekiah says, the thing you have said to me is good, because basically the paraphrase, it doesn't, I'm going to die before it all happens.

Speaker 1:
[68:39] Yeah, I'll be dead before the bad things happen.

Speaker 2:
[68:41] And I think that's what we have to be careful of. And I feel a lot of leaders are there. It's not on my watch. I'm just going to get my retirement tap out. I stayed the distance.

Speaker 1:
[68:50] Yeah, this is too hard.

Speaker 2:
[68:51] I didn't have an affair. I didn't take the money. I'm going to, I'm okay. I'm just going to, you know, and I'm like, wow, that's not what we signed up for. So that's to me a big thing. And the second saddest scripture is in Judges 2 10, where it says, when Joshua and his generation died, another generation arose that did not know the Lord, nor the works he had done for Israel. So as good as Joshua was, ultimately he failed because the thing is you take all the promise. What is the big deal? Truly, Carey, if I build the biggest anti-trafficking organization, if I'm the chick preacher that's preached, the ultimately big deal if I don't pass the baton of faith to a generation that won't run further, faster, harder and know God more than me. And I think so many of us are so consumed with what's my legacy going to be? We don't need to leave one other than, as Jude says, take the faith that's been passed on from generation to generation, and we pass that on to the next generation. Ultimately, that is more important than how many people did I preach to, and how big was my social media following, and how effective was I in A21. Whether the history books remember that or not, truly is insignificant. Whether the next generation knows Jesus or not, that's actually what matters.

Speaker 1:
[70:10] Is there an area of your life that you would say God is pruning you in right now, Christine?

Speaker 2:
[70:15] I am always in a pruning process. There is no doubt about it. There is no, you know, and for me, the residue, Carey, from just, you know, being left in a hospital, unnamed and unwanted when I was born, being, you know, finding out at 33 I was adopted, going through many years of childhood sexual abuse. Jesus has healed me of so much, and so much of what I do today is an overflow of that healing. But I find that the pruning that happens at different seasons of my life is always, will more often than professionally, it's going to be something internally in my heart that has to do with that. Now, the pruning that's happening, and it's sad in a way, is at 60, as I turn 60 this year, to not, it is, when I say lonely isn't the word, I'm surrounded by awesome people. I have great friends, marriage. But you know when you first are in youth ministry and they call you down the front, if you want to serve Jesus, you're a teenager, thousands are going forward. Yes, here I am Lord. You're in your 20s, they have an altar call. Well now, there's still hundreds. Here I am, we're all in this together. You get to 60, you look around, you go, where is everybody? You know all those people that we said we didn't sign up until I get the husband or until I get the house or until I get the business or until someone disappoints me in church, like I signed up till I die kind of thing. So it's my challenge here is, when I say not to settle, I could ride on the momentum of what the Lord's allowed me to do for the last 40 years. And just pretty much, if I don't do anything stupid, I could ride on that momentum and just go.

Speaker 1:
[72:03] Cruise it out for another couple of decades.

Speaker 2:
[72:05] You know, dial it in and I'm there. But to go, even though some people that I love and admire so much, around my age, sort of a more, you know, I just want to sit outside, look at the plants and, you know, just take it easy kind of thing. To go, okay, that's okay for them. But that's not what I'm called to. Jesus is still calling me on. It takes a lot to dig down and go, I'm going to keep going. I'm not a 20-year-old anymore. I'm not a 30. I'm not even trying to be. But I'm not that. I'm not 20, 30, 40 or 50. So I'm not in any of those age brackets. It's getting pretty thin in my age bracket of what do you look like? There's not too many textbooks I can go and say, what does it look like to be a woman of God at the forefront, you know, pioneering and keep going at 60. And not to listen to either both sides of the coin at my age. The narrative of try to stay young, try to stay young, try to stay relevant, whatever that means, or the whole anti-aging industry. That's the whole anti-aging industry. Or the kind of like you're old and you're out to pasture industry.

Speaker 1:
[73:14] Yeah, you're right. Where's the in-between? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[73:17] There's sort of somewhere going, okay, we're not the anti-aging people because I want to age gracefully. And yet I want to be like Caleb who at 85 said, I'm as strong now as I was then. Moses promised me Hebron. Now give me this mountain. That's it. And so I want to be that. But I'm surrounded by people that are not necessarily that at my age and stage. And it's kind of some people that go, well, can't you let go? And I'm like, well, yes, I'm not trying to be what I was, but I can't let go of Jesus. And if he's pulling me forward. So you have that sort of thing of like, some people thinking like, you know, you should get out of the way. And I'm like, get out of the way of what? I'm not in anyone's way. I mean, I'm doing what God's called me to do. So you just have to again, do what you tell 20-year-olds to do and 15-year-olds to do. You and Jesus have got to be so tight. And that pruning of the need for everyone to understand you or to approve of you is a pruning that consistently has to happen. And you say, okay, I can learn some best practices and learn a lot from the literature on people my age, what our body does and what a woman's body does and all the hormonal thing and all the adjustments. And also I can still walk in faith and believe that God can with his power and his strength that I can do exceedingly abundantly above and beyond anything I could ever ask, hope or think or imagine. And I can believe that, you know, my latter days can be greater than my former days. And that what's ahead of me can have greater fruitfulness and I can flourish more than what's behind me. And so, you know, but you're not going to have a whole lot of people at this age and stage cheerleading you there. You have just got to, you and God have got to get that. And so that need, and for me, it's always going to touch on a mothering wound. And as even my spiritual mother and certain people, I mean, you just get older and you die. That's, you know, as George Bernard Shaw said, death is the ultimate statistic. One out of one will die. So I'm just like, people go, well, you know, I won't. I can just live long enough, honey. You're going to, all of us are. So the thing is that when the people a little bit further down the track from you are all dying, you're like, I'm it. There's nothing, it's an interesting feeling going, oh, I am the spiritual mother now. I am that, I am the adult in the room. This is like really scary. I'm like, Jesus, you need to come back because I am becoming the adult in the room. This is really scary.

Speaker 1:
[75:49] No, it's so funny. I feel like I went from the young upstart leader to the sage in about 20 minutes. I don't know how it happened that quickly. It was 20 years, but it felt like 20 minutes. So I get it. Well, the new book is called The Faith To Flourish. It's available everywhere you get books. I enjoyed it a lot. Is there anything, Christine, that we didn't touch on that you want to touch on before we wrap up today?

Speaker 2:
[76:17] Not other than to say whether you're younger and broken. I mean, when I was first dealing with all the stuff, the abuse, the abandonment, the adult, I needed someone to tell me I could flourish. Before when you asked me that question about the therapeutic culture, a lot of the narrative in our culture is a victim narrative that almost has you parking your pain and your trauma as the end point.

Speaker 1:
[76:42] I am my labels, I am my diagnosis.

Speaker 2:
[76:44] I guess I am saying that no, no, that you could see God's got a whole lot more for you. And it's been about 10 years since we've had those conversations again. No, you can flourish, you can overcome. Jesus can heal and thank God we've got a whole lot of tools to help us, but the end goal is flourishing, not just surviving. You can thrive. And hopefully through my past, I've lived now long enough to testify to that. That it's not just, I'm not just giving you a story of my life, there's a testimony that this thing really does work. So whether you're broken, and then of course in those in between years of what is it, and I guess if I'm talking to women that you got babies and live, what is it to flourish in the midst of all of that when life is going crazy, if you're single and you're going, what does it look like when all the church says is you've got to get married and have kids? And I'm not, what is it to flourish? I mean, all of these things are what I'm addressing. And I really do have a strong section. I mean, I've written about the Holy Spirit in a way that I've never written in two chapters of the book because I just, I think a whole lot of us, Max Locator, a whole lot of us are just like, guys, we've got to tell you what the secret source is. It's like, you know, this is it. And so I really did with great intentionality in ways I haven't ever in any way talked about that in this book, because it's like that is the key, the empowerment of the Spirit of God. And what does that look like practically? Theologically, so I went there. And then also I do want to speak to people my age and go, please, a generation needs you to not stop. We need to keep going.

Speaker 1:
[78:17] Yeah, and I think your point about not a lot of mentors, particularly for women around that, you know, late thirties to mid forties, that can be an encouragement, because we do have a lot of young leaders listening, like hang in there, don't quit, don't give up. If you're called to something else, great, not going to fight you. But a lot of people they leave not because they're called to do it elsewhere, but because they think, I can't do this anymore. And I think your book is going to be a real encouragement to people. It's called The Faith to Flourish. It's available everywhere. Chris, if people want to track with you online, where's the easiest place to find you?

Speaker 2:
[78:52] I'm on all the things, but probably just Instagram is the thing I look at most. So just Christine.

Speaker 1:
[78:57] Yeah, me too.

Speaker 2:
[78:59] There it is, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[79:01] All right. Well, we'll link to everything in the show notes. Man, I didn't get to most of my notes, but that's a sign of a great conversation. Thank you so much, Chris.

Speaker 2:
[79:09] Thanks, Carrie. And thank you for this podcast. I mean, I'm one of your avid listeners, and I just thank God. It's miraculous what he's done with this. It really is.

Speaker 1:
[79:17] It is crazy, man. I'm still in the basement where I started it. Well, actually, it was in an upper floor office in my house. But yeah, it's nuts. But that, as you say, is the faithfulness of God. To think that this has the footprint by the grace of God that it does, the influence with our generation and younger generations is pretty, I'm very thankful and surprised on a regular basis. But people like you make it good. And so thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. And until next time, I'm really grateful. Christine, thank you.

Speaker 2:
[79:49] Thanks, mate. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:
[79:50] Man, I told you that one didn't disappoint. I mean, we went everywhere and we could have gone a lot longer, but I know you've got time limits too. And we'll have Christine back again in the future. So hopefully that was really helpful to you. I would love to hear from you in the comments. Do you know the best place to leave a comment? Not only where you listen to this podcast, but inside the Art of Leadership Academy. That's where you're going to find the show notes. So if you go to theartofleadershipacademy.com, join over 18, probably 20,000 leaders by the time you hear this, who are now part of the Art of Leadership Academy. You can join for free today. We have some amazing discussions on all of these episodes inside the Academy. Join 20,000 church leaders inside the Academy. In the next episode, we have John Acuff also coming up. We have Todd Wilson. We've also got Robbie Gallaty and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast. If you are enjoying this episode, please leave a rating and review. We would love that. Maybe share it with a friend as well. And I hope this episode helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.