transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:05] Welcome to This Naked Mind Podcast, where we question the role of alcohol in our lives without rule, shame or judgment. I'm Annie Grace, and I'm so thrilled to have you with us today. In this special series, I'm inviting you into something truly unique and deeply personal. You're going to be listening in on real one-on-one coaching sessions between some of our certified This Naked Mind coaches and members of our community who are on their own journey with alcohol. These sessions are raw, unfiltered and completely unscripted. But before we dive in, I want to prepare you for what you're about to hear. These conversations are real, real people, real struggles, real emotions. They're honest and they're sometimes painful and they may even be uncomfortable to listen to. But that's the point. So no matter where you are on your own personal journey, I encourage you to listen with an open heart and an open mind. Now let's step into the world of this naked mind coaching because this is where change begins.

Speaker 2:
[01:00] Hello, I'm Cotelli, Alcohol Freedom Guide at This Naked Mind and one of the coaches inside of The Path. On today's episode, you will get the opportunity to listen in as I coach one of our Path members. Welcome, Michelle. I am so excited to get to talk to you and dive into whatever it is that we're going to be exploring. I would love for you to introduce yourself and let us know what we're going to be jumping into.

Speaker 3:
[01:21] Yeah, thank you, Cotelli. I am excited today. I'm nervous but excited at the same time because I think, frankly, it's something that I have pushed aside as being an issue. And I know it's an issue. But a little bit about me. This is my second time around in the past. Truthfully, I didn't do the work the first time. I did some of the work, but not all of the work this time. And then I kind of fell back into patterns. And this time, I decided I was going to do the work and see if it made a difference because I still have that same desire and that same feeling that I just don't want wine in my life. For me, it's always been wine, it's nothing else. I can stop with a glass of wine and I'm fine. But it is something that I use at the end of the day or end of when I'm completely done with whatever it is to just shut off. It's almost as if all my responsibilities are done and I can just disconnect. And I don't like the feeling that I feel waking up the next day. And it's not even just my physical feeling. It's not even that. It's a feeling of health is very important to me. And I feel like that substance, because of Annie, I know what it truly is.

Speaker 2:
[02:51] You can't see it any other way now.

Speaker 3:
[02:53] I can't see it any other way. As much as I want it. You know, there is no health benefit to Redline. There just isn't. And so I do think about that a lot when I wake up in the morning and I'm like, oh, gosh, you just should have had your cup of tea or you should have like climbed up into bed and you're like, go take your bath, like do all of those things instead of just sitting and disconnecting. But I think the other big piece for me, and it's probably the bigger piece. This is very connected to my relationship with my husband. If I'm honest, I think our relationship we met when I we were both professionals. He's an attorney. I'm a professional. I'm a leader for a high-tech company. We were homeowners. We did our own thing when we met. We skied, we boated, we did all of the fun things and alcohol always seems to have been a part of that, including our friendships. And then I would say I have four children and I was alcohol-free for a long time because I was either pregnant or raising babies or nursing or doing something that, you know, just was not conducive to the good health of myself or my children. And then they got older and, you know, it kind of stepped back in. And I do find that it's really the only thing my husband and I do now. It somehow is connected to it. And I have the fear, if I'm honest. I have little patience left for him drinking. And so it's just easier for me to say, Oh, to heck with it. I'll just join in it. And then we just kind of like spiral down. The good news is I'm actually on the break, like take a break right now. I started a few days before I think everyone else did, just because I tend to like to start things on Sundays, as opposed to midweek. Amazing. So, I went into it. So I'm almost 30 days, and the first couple days was difficult to, just a habit, right? It was just kind of what I was used to, like a glass of wine at the end of the night or two. That's the thing. It just ends up being so much more, it's never the four ounces, it's never, truthfully. But now I've created different, I sit in a different seat, like I'm laughing, I'm sitting on the couch, I sit in an entirely different seat in my living room, so that there's that disconnection. But I do notice that when my husband's drinking, I don't want to be around it. So I'm taking myself away from it. And he doesn't give me a hard time about not drinking, although the first time he did, which was interesting. He was like, oh, you and your high and mighty attitude. And I laughed because I was like, high and mighty attitude. And then he apologized later and he said, no, I shouldn't have said that. But I do think that he recognized that there was something that was different between the two of us. So I think that's probably my biggest thing. I really haven't dug into it. I haven't done enough of the digging into it.

Speaker 2:
[05:58] Which is okay. That's also right. That's completely normal. However, yeah, it reminds me of the expression, what we resist persists. And it's like, there are certain things that we just cannot dance around. Right? And the other thing is, you've laid a lot of base information. You mentioned it being the second time in your path and wanting to do more work. And so that's the thing. You are now and you're here and you're diving in and exploring it. And so maybe you didn't feel comfortable with it at that point, or maybe you're just seeing things differently now and seeing this area of opportunity to explore, all of which is a beautiful thing. The right, there's no right, there's no wrong. And you mentioned, so you're doing the break. Yeah, the first couple of days, your brain's looking for the familiar, right? Looking for the known, looking for the thing. And so you said it's the only thing that you and your husband do. And I'm curious when you mentioned like, when he's drinking, I don't really want to be around it. Is it temptation that you don't want to be around it? Or what exactly, like, where does that go for you?

Speaker 3:
[07:00] We don't drink the same thing. And I mean, he'll have a glass of wine like this dinner and he'll be fine, but that's not his drink of choice. He's a cocktail, like, he'll have a cocktail. I just can see the ugliness of it. I can see how his personality changes. I just can see, I like him so much better when he's not drinking. I just do, and I see it for what it is through clear lenses, I guess. And when he has a drink or two, I think it's fine, but any more than that, I'm just not interested. I tend to pay attention to it more, too. Like the more he'll go and get or refill or something. I never used to pay attention to that stuff, and I pay attention to it now. And I think the other thing, I'm really trying to make a different space for my children. I want my children to see something different. And I feel this enormous pressure, and maybe I hadn't really thought about this before now. Maybe some of it is resentment. Because I do feel like I am the one who always has to be the good example. And so it's about accountability, but I also know how important it is for them to see a different way, because it's so easy to get sucked in.

Speaker 2:
[08:24] 100 percent. Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting the light bulb of resentment. And like what you said was always have to be the good example. Whereas how would it feel to reframe that and think that you get to be, that you're presenting, like changing this opportunity. I get to be this for my kids. How amazing is that?

Speaker 3:
[08:44] That feels good. I hadn't, I didn't think of that.

Speaker 2:
[08:48] It's interesting though, right? Like just the way that we use our language and the weight that it either carries or lightens based on the words that we use. Because how does that feel to think about it that way?

Speaker 3:
[09:01] Oh my gosh, so much better. You made me think of something. So when, remember how I told you that I stopped drinking for years and years because, well, I shouldn't say I stopped. There were many years I didn't really have alcohol because I had responsibilities to my children. I just did. I had to get up early. I took care of little ones. We live in a neighborhood that is wonderful. On Fridays, all the kids would play hockey in the street or play basketball. They would all get together. There was a whole crew of them. We would go order pizzas and sit outside. Everybody would have a drink or something. I would go in ultimately to get the kids, but my husband would be, oh, there's Buzzkill. Well, I ordered, and that's what he would call me, and I thought about that all the time. And then I ordered from Annie's, one of the things, one of the sessions that I listened to from Annie, because I've been trying to do it every day, was her kids' book.

Speaker 4:
[09:59] Buzz to Buzzkill.

Speaker 3:
[10:00] Buzz to Buzzkill. I was like, oh my gosh. I was laughing about that. But I hadn't really thought about the word recently until, like I hadn't really thought about that word until recently and I got that book and it honestly was like last week.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 3:
[13:37] And I always thought, I knew she had written a child's book, but I thought that it was for little kids. And then when I got it, I'm like, oh, it's not really for little kids. Like it is good, it's good information that you can let, and I do, I keep it on the table so that they can like curiously kind of pick it up and just like read a page if they want.

Speaker 2:
[13:55] I love that.

Speaker 3:
[13:56] But it made me think about that name. And so maybe I think that, like I just think, oh, she's a buzzkill, like when she's not, when she's not thinking.

Speaker 2:
[14:08] Yeah, and it's, this is one of the things I find challenging, but also probably one of the most life-changing things because I've had similar things and comments and I'm like, oh, I remember the first, I can't even remember what the specific first one was, but I remember feeling like I got punched in the stomach, like I'm a buzzkill or I'm boring or whatever. And I'm like, oh, wow, what a punch to the gut. And then I finally started to actually realize that's not about me. Right? When other comments, other things, any statements, it's one of those things that people often say that, right? Other person's responses, reactions or words, it's a reflection of their internal state. It's not a reflection of you. Then I always knew that. Yep. But then when I actually realized, no, that that is actual truth. I stopped internalizing those things because internalizing that, do you see how that may be impacting? I'm feeling really good on this break, right? I care about my health. I'm sleeping better. I get, I'm going to flip your leg. I get to be this example to my kids. But at the end of the break, there's probably, we kind of chatted briefly before, right? Is there that thought of, well, maybe I could just have one.

Speaker 3:
[15:25] Yeah. It's still, I mean, it is. It's definitely there. And it's, so for me, I'm pretty driven, right? So I can accomplish things. I genuinely can. So in my head, I was like, okay, I am doing this. This 30 days, I'm doing this. And so I had that in my head. Well, the 30 days is coming up. And so if I tell myself that it's forever, that's harder. So I'm doing it. So I was like, okay, 30 days, anybody can do 30 days. I ran a road race, did, went, got through Thanksgiving, like got through my son leaving, like all of the things, no problem. But the holidays are coming up and I'm like, oh, there's holiday parties coming. Maybe I'll, you know, I'm going out to dinner. Is it, will it be okay if I have a glass of wine? And then there's like this person, like, you know, no, it is not because you know what will happen. You know that that's going to like suck you down into. And I keep going back to, okay, the non-negotiables, all these things that I didn't do when I did the June pass before, like no, your non-negotiables say that you are not drinking at home anymore. I'm like, okay, so that's out.

Speaker 2:
[16:36] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[16:37] So that, you know, so that's out. So does that mean that I can like go out to dinner and like have a glass of wine because my non-negotiable list says that I can't drink at home. And so that's okay. This is what is going on.

Speaker 2:
[16:54] This is the noise. And it's normal, by the way, like that's all normal. And the other thing is, and I didn't mean to interrupt you because you said the forever and I'm like, because it makes sense, right? That it's anything that feels daunting, like pressure restrictive is something we don't want to move towards. So Annie says it, right? No, you never have to say never or forever or any of these things. She her her quote or expression is, I drink as much as I want whenever I want. I just haven't wanted to in over 10 years. Right. And that leaves her the freedom of choice.

Speaker 3:
[17:28] Right.

Speaker 2:
[17:28] We all have that freedom of choice. And so you have those those voices and going back to like the buzzkill and the different fears when it comes to your relationship. Is it possible that like those fears and the fears with the relationship are kind of putting a megaphone to the to the little maybe we can just have one voice because there's a belief that maybe that will whether it's help keep the relationship or not keep the relationship, but you want to be able to?

Speaker 3:
[18:02] I do. I mean, that's the part of it. Like I don't I don't want my marriage to end. I don't. But I really don't.

Speaker 2:
[18:09] A hundred percent. And that's what I love. I love like hearing and seeing the way that you said that because it's so genuine and from your heart. But where is the story coming from that if you stop drinking it? Do we know? Can we go order in a court of law that if I stop drinking, this is no longer going to work?

Speaker 3:
[18:28] No, we don't know. No, no, absolutely. We do not know that. Here's what I do know. Yeah, I have so much less patience with it. I see it like I have so much less patience with it. And I have less patience with it for myself. I have less patience with it for my children seeing it. I have less patience with him not taking care of himself. You know, like that, like I want him and you can't control another person at all. No, and so then I keep saying, okay, you can only, you can only like fix yourself. Like you can only, although you know what, I will tell you, Hayley, there was one glimmer that happened a few weeks ago. Two things now. So we used to go out, two things. So we used to go out on Wednesdays. I work in the city on Wednesdays and when I came, when I came home, I cook all the time. And, but on Wednesdays, because it's usually late, I'll either throw something like easy in the crock pot together that everybody can like grab. And my husband and I will go grab something to eat if my kids are like at sporting, you know, their sports practices or whatever. And so we would always go to this place, which was kind of fun. They have music and they do like trivia. And so it was always dinner and a glass of wine or two and you know, that kind of thing. And he did tell me, so this Wednesday I came home and he said, you want to go grab something to eat? And he said to me, we don't have to go. So we don't have to go to the restaurant that we always do. I said, you know what, I don't want to cook. And he said, we can go something different. And so we did. He had a drink. I didn't. I had a diet coke that's like my new friend. It's like, oh, like, this is actually very funny. So I'm like, now I'm going to have a diet coke addiction as well because diet coke I would never touch because of like aspartame and all the stuff that's in it. Now I'm like, you know what, who cares about aspartame? Like, so I don't drink it a lot, but like when we go out to dinner, that's like the thing, you know? And then the other time, the other time I just want to tell you really quickly. So we went to the movies. I stood in the line to go get a diet coke and I'm missing a popcorn. And he stood in the drink line. So in the United States, I don't know if it's like that in Canada, you can go get like an alcoholic beverage. And the line was really long and it wasn't moving. And so I had my popcorn and my diet coke and I went over to get them, go stand with them. And he's like, oh, you know what? He's like, this line is too long. I just won't get one. And I was shocked. I was like, you sure? And he's like, yeah, no, he said, I'm fine. And so then we went in, he's up. And so I thought, you know what? In the movies, he was going to, nope, he didn't. He went the whole time. So when I said the intellectual part of me sees these pieces, the emotional part of me gets frustrated at what I, you know, and I, that's my fear.

Speaker 2:
[21:24] A hundred percent, which is normal, which is so normal. But and I think something I love that you said, like we can't change someone else. We can't, right? But even before talking about your kids, instead of like, I have to, I have to be the one to like lead this charge. It's I get to. And it's interesting because we don't know. And right. Those are two amazing things that have happened. We don't know. We don't know what will happen beyond that. But it's like if two things have already somewhat shifted or you have seen something, is it possible that as you continue to find what feels good for you, because when you feel good, they feel that energy, whether that's your kids, your husband, your friends. And all of a sudden, the idea of drinking less or not drinking at all looks completely different than the way that people have it imagined, right? Because of stereotype, because of stigma. It's, oh, you're the buzzkill. Oh, you're boring. Oh, people who don't drink, I don't trust. Right. I hate to say it. I said this. I hate to say it. I said, right. But there's so many different stereotypes, which is why when people will say buzzkill or something like that to me, I'm like, yeah, okay, that's your idea. But if you think that I, sure. But just by being who you are and showing up, it shows that that isn't true. That's not the truth. And so all of a sudden, yeah, I might not have a drink when I go to the movies. Yeah, we can go somewhere different. So there's an openness there. And again, it doesn't mean change, don't change. The other thought that comes to mind, it's one of my favorite expressions, is when we realize how hard it is to change something in ourselves, we realize what little chance we have changing someone else.

Speaker 3:
[23:05] So true.

Speaker 2:
[23:06] Right?

Speaker 3:
[23:06] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[23:07] But our brains, if we have a fear, because you said like with so much heart and like love, I don't want my marriage to end. So that fear can create a story. Well, this is the only thing my husband and I do. So what if I don't? Whereas, what if you do something different? Right? Just because this is what I've always done doesn't mean this is what I always have to do or we always have to do. And that dinner and him saying, we don't have to go there or we can do something else, is a perfect example that, yeah, maybe this is what I've done for 5, 10, 15 years. But that doesn't mean that's what we have to do forever.

Speaker 3:
[23:45] I guess I haven't really thought about it like that. Like I'm a problem solver, right? So when there's a problem?

Speaker 2:
[23:52] Yeah. And when you can see the problem, you're like, well, I want... And the other thing is, when you see someone else having a substance that now, like you said, Annie, she dang near ruined it.

Speaker 3:
[24:03] I don't see it anymore.

Speaker 2:
[24:05] But so when you see someone else consuming it, because you love them, it's hard. But is it possible to see that through the lens of compassion, knowing that this whole process takes time and as much as you have fears, there's a pretty good chance he has some too.

Speaker 3:
[24:23] I'm sure he does. Yeah, I'm sure he does. I'm sure of it. He's so much more social than I am. Yeah. So even if I think about him, like cutting back or not, like that's so tied to his social, like I don't think he can see being out without it or going or doing something without it. Yet, even the other night when we did go to dinner, if I'm really, really looking at him, he had two drinks, which is unusual. He only had two drinks, like threw up. Normally, he would have more than that. He's a big guy. So that was noticeable to me. Yeah, I guess I can. I guess I haven't.

Speaker 2:
[25:08] Yeah, so yeah, so then that would be my question because I'd asked if we went to the court of law, like could you argue this to be true, not true? And so, yeah, is it possible to continue the path that you're on, changing your relationship with alcohol and that not equating to you, your husband, the success of your marriage? And again, I never want to say it will plant seeds or it's going to create change because we cannot guarantee that. We do not know what we do not know. My partner still drinks, not a lot, not often. Annie's husband had said, you're on your own on this one. And then he ended up not drinking. I might. And I said, my partner still drink far less and says, I don't like the way that I feel. I like waking up early now. And I'm like, that's interesting. I'm not, yeah, not touching it with a 10 foot pole. But that's because he sees, he sees it, he hears it, he knows differently. And so, right, you doing what you're doing, you get to be the light. Doesn't mean it's your job. And it doesn't mean you're creating or forcing anyone to change. But you've already seen these glimmers. And so even with the, can I have one thought in December? Because I know it's the holidays, it's the, all of the things. And you've, you set this 30 day goal. And so you, here's the thing, we never have to say forever. But do you see maybe where that voice is coming from a little bit more?

Speaker 3:
[26:39] I do. No, I do. I do. I definitely do. I'm a little afraid. I feel afraid. Like, I feel afraid. Like, okay, like, what if I don't? Like, what if I keep going? Like, what, what if I keep going?

Speaker 2:
[26:53] What if, what if? Does, what feels better to you? What if I keep going? Because that's open in general. Or, what if I keep going through December to finish 2025, feeling good when I wake up, and then I re-evaluate from there? Because each one of us has a different currency, right? We all have different energies. We all have different things. Like you said, you're ambitious, you're a driver, like you're go-go. That, that feels good to you. And so the idea of what if I continue might feel, does that feel too general and overwhelming and unknown? Whereas, what if it's, what if I finish 2025? I could, I just did this 30-day challenge. I love a good challenge. I would love to see how it feels to be connected during the holidays, to be present, to remember all of the things, right? Reconnecting to that childlike wonder of the holidays. How would that feel as opposed to what if I do keep going? Because what if I keep going is bringing up fear, but what if we, what if we change the parameters a little bit? How would that feel?

Speaker 3:
[27:57] I like that. I listened to Coach, so we had a, I don't know, like a 20 minute session on awe and it was recorded and I listened to it.

Speaker 2:
[28:07] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[28:07] It was really good. And I've just been paying attention to it. And it's so funny, I don't think I would, my brain is so crisp right now. Like it's crazy.

Speaker 2:
[28:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[28:18] Like it's amazing the things that, you know, it's all these things that I just know and I, like I remember them.

Speaker 2:
[28:24] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[28:24] Like I remember, like this is how I always used to be. This is how I always, but you do forget and it's so easy. I think you just get into, like even, even like I wear an aura ring. Yep. My resting heart rate and my HRV are remarkably different, even with one glass of wine. Like it's shocking.

Speaker 2:
[28:46] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[28:46] Like how much it impacts you. So now that I'm like, I, you said awe, you know, like you said, you know, to remember like remembering things and seeing things crisply and all that. And I, I don't know. I think I might do that.

Speaker 2:
[29:03] Yeah. Like, like how does that feel? Because I was like, people can't see your face, but I'm like, you just look like lighter. Like you look like, yeah, I might do that. You, it looks, you look content.

Speaker 3:
[29:15] I can do that. It's okay. The end of 2025, I can do that.

Speaker 2:
[29:20] And where's the scary in that? Because before you're like, I feel afraid if I'm being honest.

Speaker 3:
[29:24] I think the scary is, what if I really like it a lot and it becomes my new normal? What does that mean for going forward with, I don't know, this is going to sound silly. My son gets married. Does that mean I don't toast him at his wedding? And I know you're going to say, yes, you can toast him with whatever. But it's that kind of stuff that I'm, is it really important? Is it really important that I have a drink with my son who's going to turn 21? Is that really important? I can still go out. I can still do all of the things.

Speaker 2:
[29:58] Remember the whole get to. Get to. You also get to celebrate with him or show him that you can celebrate in a different way.

Speaker 3:
[30:07] Which is, I get to show him that I can be really fun and happy. Like happy and not have any, like I'm calm. I'm really calm for the most part. Like nothing is really irritating me. Nothing is, I'm not snapping. Even when the crazy things happen, I'm like, okay, we'll figure it out. We'll make it work. Whereas that hasn't always been the case.

Speaker 2:
[30:34] Well, yeah, because even think of your aura ring, and even if it's a glass of wine, right? Your cortisol, so your stress hormones, your adrenaline, everything is spiked. So everything that you normally would be like, okay, yeah, I'll figure it out. It is not that response, right? It's like, why is this happening? So it is completely different. To me, you get to show that you can have fun, you can celebrate without, and that you're happy and you're fun, but also that he can, right? That anyone can, and again, not being like do drink, don't drink. It's nothing like that, but it's you get to show anyone that, yeah, we can still celebrate. Yes, I can still go out. Yes, we can still do those things. And some of that might take getting comfortable, like write all of those things. I was, I just actually talked about on a path call this week, how I was very introverted when I first stopped. And I was like, I am definitely more of an introvert, and I am, but I've come out of my shell over this last year in such a different way where I feel more like myself than I ever have. And that took time, which is okay. And so it can all just be time. And instead of thinking like, yeah, what if, what about toasting at a dinner? What if, because that's future tripping. And if you, right, I really, your energy is just so like, I feel calm and like joy as you're thinking through it. And if that continues to expand, maybe those questions, those what ifs that we're freaking out about won't even be questions when you end up crossing that bridge, right? And so it's trying not to future trip or get ahead of where you are because from now until before when you took the break, you probably feel a lot different.

Speaker 3:
[32:16] I do. I definitely do. And I think that, you know, I really hadn't thought about it that way, but I am future tripping. I'm worrying about things that are because even when I like, I don't have a lot of cravings, but certain like tonight's Friday night. Yeah, so Friday night, I told you earlier that my son had just bought a house, so my husband flew down to help him. I live in New England, so he flew down to go help him. And I was like, oh, you know what? A Christmas cheese up, I could put Christmas movies on. What a, how nice it would be to like have a glass of wine. I'm like, oh, yeah, I can't do that. And like, so there's this like uncomfortableness of it when I think about it. But then I was like, okay, what are you going to do alternatively? You can do all of the same things, but you can go have spark, you know, go like make yourself like a glass of sparkling cider or you know, like you can do there's a whole bunch. And I was like, oh, that's fine. You know, like that. And again, tomorrow, I'm going with my girlfriend to Christmas fair, and we're going to go for breakfast before and I'll be fabulously, you know, like happy and up super early and exercising and all of the things before then. And I know all of that. And so I think maybe you're right. I think I have to stop going so far. Maybe if I just stay here.

Speaker 2:
[33:38] Yeah, stay in the present. Better. Well, we it's normal and it's natural to do. However, the fear of the unknown is not worth jeopardizing being in this moment, being here and allowing yourself to actually just embrace and experience what you're feeling. Because when we look ahead, we go into fear, we go into anxiety, whereas in the here and now, you feel great and you feel calm and you feel present. That's where we want to be because we can't guarantee any of the rest anyways. Everything will change the same way that over the last 30 days things have changed. It's holding that loosely and just allowing yourself to be present where you are.

Speaker 3:
[34:21] No, I like that. I think that's what I need to remind myself. I don't have to make any decisions to that.

Speaker 2:
[34:27] How does that feel?

Speaker 3:
[34:29] It feels really good. It does.

Speaker 5:
[34:30] It feels really good.

Speaker 4:
[34:32] Oh, good.

Speaker 2:
[34:33] Yeah, no. Thank you. Yeah, it's interesting how one thing can kind of, one topic or fear can ripple into others and it's like the fear with my relationship can prompt that voice of maybe just one, and then this idea of forever and it's like, if we just stay here in this moment and we don't try to stay away from the future tripping and we understand where the voice is coming from and that this is a fear that creates a story, we don't have to listen. And you're the author, right? You get to rewrite it. And when it comes, the one thing that I wanted to circle back on to, you had mentioned patience because I know when I, I love everyone. However, sometimes when it reaches a certain point, I'm like, I'm going to go away or I'm going to go listen to an audio book or I'm going to go put on my diffuser and lay a fuzzy blanket but finding different ways to just create space for yourself and it's like an observe, don't absorb. I don't have to stay in an environment that I just don't want to be in right now. Doesn't have to be bad, doesn't have to be confrontational, doesn't have to be a disconnect. It's just been together. Okay, now I'm going to go do my own thing. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[35:42] That has definitely helped me. I just, I try to be social for a little bit.

Speaker 2:
[35:48] Yep.

Speaker 3:
[35:48] And then I take my stuff and go upstairs.

Speaker 2:
[35:52] Yep. Absolutely. No, that was, yeah. How does that all feel when we wrap up here?

Speaker 3:
[36:01] It feels good. It does. It feels good. It doesn't feel like it's a definite. And I think that's what I have been playing over in my head because it feels so good. Like I just, I just feel good with this being the way that it is. It's normal. I think when I think about the long term part is when I get really nervous. And so it's okay to just stay where I am and just enjoy where I am today.

Speaker 2:
[36:30] Absolutely. It's encouraged. It's more than okay.

Speaker 3:
[36:34] Oh, I would be happier if we lived our lives that way.

Speaker 2:
[36:39] Oh, thank you so, so much for jumping on.

Speaker 3:
[36:43] Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2:
[36:45] Awesome.

Speaker 1:
[36:48] That was a powerful session. Take a moment to breathe and just reflect on what you've heard. As we move into the next session, let's carry that same openness and compassion. Every story is different, but the courage to face these challenges head on is what brings us all together. Let's listen in.

Speaker 5:
[37:05] Hey, everybody. Welcome to This Naked Mind Podcast. I am Cole Harvey, Alcohol Freedom Guide and a Senior Coach here at This Naked Mind. Today, you all have the wonderful opportunity to listen in as I coach one of our PATH participants, Sue. Sue is here today to get some coaching around some stuff. And I would just like to welcome her to the podcast. Hey, Sue. How are you doing?

Speaker 4:
[37:26] I'm fine, thanks.

Speaker 5:
[37:28] Yeah. Well, it's great to have you on. We were talking a little bit before we started recording about what it is you want to be coached on. If you could just kind of go over that, too, for folks that are listening, what is you like some coaching around?

Speaker 4:
[37:40] It's the emotional side of life at the moment. Well, it has been for quite a while that I'm still struggling to deal with guilt related to losing my son last year. Guilt in the fact that I think of his years as he was growing up, seeing me drinking all the time, that led to him drinking all the time and ultimately drinking. It was what killed him. And I would have thought that that would make me not want to drink, even though I hated drinking, it made me drink even more. Fortunately, with the path, I've now reduced and then I've quit drinking, so that I'm now alcohol free. But I'm still struggling with the self-compassion that people tell me I should have, because I just mostly don't feel that I'm worth self-compassion.

Speaker 5:
[38:41] Yeah. I just want to take a moment and just allow this energy to be here, and just recognize that parental guilt, the sadness after a loss is so heavy, and it's common, right? Sometimes it's big, and it's a tough thing. I just want to recognize that, and I want to just say we appreciate you being vulnerable enough to bring this to a coaching call. And I think this can be helpful for a lot of folks today. And again, I really appreciate your willingness to talk about this. I think when you think you have that guilt and that heaviness around this, what is it that you specifically think you're guilty of?

Speaker 4:
[39:30] Just being a really poor role model, that my child grew up and drink was my life. It was everything involved drink, and that's what he always saw. So we thought that was the thing to do.

Speaker 5:
[39:45] Well, when you look back, what do you believe that you should have done differently?

Speaker 4:
[39:51] I should have made it clear to him. The big saying isn't to do what I say, not what I do. But I didn't realize the damage it was doing. I didn't realize the dangers. Going back to the 70s, when my son was born, nobody thought there was anything wrong. Well, a lot of people, most people don't think there's anything wrong with drinking now. We certainly didn't then. But as the years passed, and he was drinking more heavily, and I was drinking more heavily, it's hindsight, it's looking back and thinking, I should have realized and I should have, I should have tried to get him to drink less. But it was too late. He ended up in hospital, right? Right, this is really guilty. He ended up in hospital, had a detox, he had sepsis. He came and stayed with me while he was recovering. And even though he wasn't drinking, he was supposedly, that was it, he wasn't ever going to drink anymore because he had done a detox. I was so weak that I was still drinking in front of him. And that, not even supporting him, I still carried on drinking. Again, I know it's guilt about things I can't change. I just feel there's more I could have done that I didn't do.

Speaker 5:
[41:09] Yeah, it's a tricky thing to be in the present moment and look back and know that you can't change the past. I'm kind of curious, and this is not to make excuses for you, but back then, what were you using alcohol as a job for? What was it responding to at the time for you?

Speaker 4:
[41:32] It was fun. It was socializing. It was going out with friends, going to nightclubs, going to pubs. Everybody was drinking, parties. It was just all part of that culture.

Speaker 5:
[41:48] Yeah. What did Sue, back then, not really know or understand that you currently have the gift of looking back on and knowing? What was she unaware of or couldn't have known?

Speaker 4:
[42:03] I didn't know that it could take the kind of tool that it did health-wise. I didn't know that it would make, that it's difficult to unravel. It's the fact of seeing what it did in the end to my son, where it was so bad that all his organs failed. We don't know that that's what it can do. I just don't know. It's not done it to me, but would it have done? I have actually got some health issues because of my drinking now, that are improving. I'm going to recover. But I just didn't know. When it was all good fun. It's strange now because it's hard to remember the time in my life where alcohol wasn't involved. So it's finding a new way forward because everything's new. But I just didn't know. That feels like a cop out, but I didn't.

Speaker 5:
[43:13] Well, like I said, it's not about making excuses or anything like that. It's just about putting it in context of the past. You have the understanding now, and then we take what we've learned recently, and then we do this weird thing where we take that knowledge and go back in time to a version of us that had no idea, that just didn't know, wasn't aware, probably along with so many other folks too. Just not a willful ignorance, but just wasn't aware, didn't understand the ramifications. There's no way to predict the future. And we set that framework that we now have onto them and expect that version of us to have known that. Does that make sense?

Speaker 4:
[44:02] Yeah. Yeah. Logically, you think, there's no way I could have done anything then because I didn't know. But then at the same time, there's that guilty part of me thinking, well, I can't have been that stupid that I thought that it wasn't having some ill effect. It's very muddling. It's something that I'm constantly trying to come to terms with and clear.

Speaker 5:
[44:30] Well, when you look back on that time and that version of Sue, I just had no idea, couldn't have known, no information about it, no like understanding of it. How do you feel towards her, just right now as you kind of look back on her, when you see her?

Speaker 4:
[44:47] A bit harsh, in a way, because I just feel sorry for the poor delusional fool who was blindly going along, having a wonderful time, thinking everything was marvelous and not knowing what was ahead, what she was doing, the impacts I was having, she was having.

Speaker 5:
[45:06] Yeah. So you said you kind of feel sad almost, is that what I heard?

Speaker 4:
[45:11] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[45:12] Does that sadness toward her, is that pity? Is that sadness, does it feel like compassion? How does that sadness feel toward her?

Speaker 4:
[45:22] It's loss of chances. It's sadness because things could have been so different if she'd have been more aware, but how can you be aware of something when there was nothing to make you aware of it? Or was there, am I just fooling myself now, making excuses up for myself?

Speaker 5:
[45:46] Well, there's no excuses really to make. Again, it's just about understanding what was happening, and there was no way to make another choice. It couldn't have happened because it didn't. I just want to see, like how does it feel to hold that guilt in that context of there's no other way it could have happened?

Speaker 4:
[46:11] I still feel quite bitter about it because I resent the past.

Speaker 5:
[46:19] Hmm. Well, let me ask you this. No, take your time. You feel bitter and resentful?

Speaker 4:
[46:27] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[46:28] About the past?

Speaker 4:
[46:29] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[46:30] And about that version of you that was living unaware? Yeah. Now, that bitterness and that resentment, let me ask, and just complete honesty here for you. This isn't a leading question. What is that bitterness and resentment? How is it serving you currently? How is it helping you?

Speaker 4:
[46:56] It's not. It's eating away at me.

Speaker 5:
[47:00] Okay. What is the cost of holding on to that bitterness and resentment?

Speaker 4:
[47:07] Feeling bad. Not being able to. It feels like betrayal if I let it go. Yeah. Okay. So, it feels like I'm betraying my son by letting go of the guilt, as if I should be punishing myself. And that is so stupid, because he would never want me to do that. And now I feel like I'm wallowing in self pity and I shouldn't be doing that either.

Speaker 5:
[47:45] Well, let's not worry about at the moment what we should and shouldn't be doing. We see the effects of that, what I should have done in the past. Let's just take a moment and let that land what you just said. It feels like betrayal to him. If I let go of that guilt, I need to keep punishing myself. And in the same breath, he said, you know, he wouldn't want you to do that. Just for a moment, if you're willing to feel into this hypothetical scenario for a second. And it's totally fine if it's not available, but I just want to offer this, if this may be useful. Just here and now, what would it feel like, just in your body, physically, if you were to hypothetically just set that guilt down for a moment?

Speaker 4:
[48:33] I don't know what it feels like to be without that guilt. So free, I suppose.

Speaker 5:
[48:41] And again, this is just a hypothetical. I'm not asking you to let go of that guilt here and now, forever. And don't think that's a resolution we could get to today in our time together. But this is more just for you to even begin to feel into the idea that I'm holding on to this guilt and that I could, if I chose to, set it down for a moment. Just to allow something else to be there. We don't know what yet, but it's like we're kind of holding two heavy suitcases in our hands. They're just filled with rocks, you know?

Speaker 4:
[49:22] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[49:23] And we're standing out on the sidewalk, waiting for the bus to come pick us up. What would it be like if we just set the suitcases down for, even just for a moment?

Speaker 4:
[49:32] Relief.

Speaker 5:
[49:34] Okay. So how does that relief feel for you just in your body? Where do you notice that relief?

Speaker 4:
[49:42] Everywhere. Lighter.

Speaker 5:
[49:44] Yeah, just let that lightness be here for a second. Just allow it. I know there may be a part of you resisting that or thinking we're letting ourselves off the hook, but we're just exploring another way for just for a moment. Does that make sense?

Speaker 4:
[50:00] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[50:01] Okay. Well, let that freeness, that lightness, sort of allow it some room. And, you know, maybe in your body, however that feels, or in your mind's eye, just kind of open the door for it right now. Is there anything that you're noticing physically in the moment? No wrong answers here.

Speaker 4:
[50:23] Still feels heavy.

Speaker 5:
[50:27] If that feeling was allowed to be here, if we were to, again, hypothetically, let it sort of grow and nurture that for a period of time, a week, a month, what might be available to you around this idea of guilt if we were to look at it from this state of being?

Speaker 4:
[50:50] That it shouldn't be as all-encompassing as it has been. That the guilt isn't all that there is.

Speaker 5:
[51:01] What else is there?

Speaker 4:
[51:03] There's lots of happy as well.

Speaker 5:
[51:06] What else is there?

Speaker 4:
[51:08] Fried and my son doing very well despite his own battle with drinking until it overtook him. So even though he grew up with me drinking, he did very well. So me as a drinker, as part of his life was only part of his life. He had all sorts of other things. It wasn't just all down to what I was doing. Sorry, I'm rambling.

Speaker 5:
[51:41] You're not rambling.

Speaker 4:
[51:46] Things I hadn't thought of. Well, no, yeah. He had a good life until it wasn't. He has children. He had a good job. I think it's difficult to see through the fog of how awful it was in the last couple of years. As if there was nothing else, but I need to sit with it and think about there was other things. There was a lot more good than bad.

Speaker 5:
[52:18] Yeah. It's difficult to do that when you're punishing yourself all the time.

Speaker 4:
[52:24] Yeah. It's like it did well despite me, not because of me.

Speaker 5:
[52:31] Let me ask you, does the guilt feel like a way of staying connected to him?

Speaker 4:
[52:37] I don't know. I hadn't thought of it that way. So like if I say, right, that's it. No, mom, I'm not feeling guilty anymore. I've done my penance. Is that a fear that I just then say, I'll forget about him, which couldn't happen?

Speaker 5:
[52:54] Right. That's not a question. I know the answer to. I just wanted to ask you that, just to check to see if you hadn't thought about it like that before.

Speaker 3:
[53:07] No.

Speaker 5:
[53:08] Which, I mean, even if that is not true, like the guilt doesn't connect you to him, how else can you honor him?

Speaker 4:
[53:18] I'm doing it by quitting, by not drinking, by putting drink in its place at last.

Speaker 5:
[53:27] Yeah. How else can you honor him?

Speaker 4:
[53:30] Well, I know I've said this before, but it's setting a good example for his children who are 23 and 21. So my grandchildren are seeing a sober grandma, a grandma who doesn't drink.

Speaker 5:
[53:46] How can you honor yourself?

Speaker 4:
[53:49] That's the million dollar question. I don't know. How can I honor myself? I don't know that I can. By continuing to do what I'm doing and have a better life than I have had for the last, I don't know how many years, which I'm finding that this new version without the drink, I'm appreciating things that I didn't fully appreciate before, just normal things, just life. That's honoring him. That's all I can think of.

Speaker 5:
[54:26] Yeah. That's beautiful. As you say those things, how does that feel for you? What do you notice?

Speaker 4:
[54:32] Feel a bit happier. Feel like it's a better way.

Speaker 5:
[54:39] Why does it feel better?

Speaker 4:
[54:40] Because I can try. No, I can look at things differently. I can look at the positive side of everything. I've got the balance wrong. And I can make it smaller so that the guilt isn't all consuming. Because I wasn't 100 percent responsible for everything, everything that happened over the last 40 years. Lots of other factors are involved. I think maybe it's my back-to-front way of thinking. Punish me instead. Bring him back and take me instead. I've got to know where that came from. Sorry.

Speaker 5:
[55:31] You have nothing to apologize for, Sue. When you said I'm not 100 percent responsible for what happened the last 40 years, how does that statement land when you say that?

Speaker 4:
[55:47] I just feel a bit freer that everything wasn't down to my influence. There were all sorts of other influences, the same as the influences that I'd had. Peer pressure and things like that.

Speaker 5:
[56:08] Yeah. Is it possible to picture a version of you back then, in the past, and just even say to her that same thing? She's not 100 percent responsible for this. There are so many other factors.

Speaker 4:
[56:25] So many versions of me in the past as well.

Speaker 5:
[56:29] Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4:
[56:33] I'd have to go back to my teens, because I was only 17 when my son was born. So I'd have to go back to that version of me, me in my thirties and my forties. So it wasn't totally my fault.

Speaker 5:
[56:51] What does that allow to open up between, if anything, between you now and those past versions of you?

Speaker 4:
[57:00] At this point in time, I have to... everything's not wonderful, everything's not, oh, I've stopped drinking and the world's now an absolutely super place and everything's perfect, it isn't. And I've got to accept that, that because what I can do is work on a different version of me now, that it's going to take a bit of time to get to a version of me that I want to be, that's living a life. I can't say at the moment that I'm living a life that I don't want to escape from because a lot of the time, it's been a life that I would want to escape from. But I can see a way forward to build a version of me, a stronger version of me for that life that I would want.

Speaker 5:
[57:49] Yeah. Of course, things aren't wonderful and amazing right now.

Speaker 4:
[57:54] No.

Speaker 5:
[57:54] We're still dealing with heavy grief, still dealing with a lot.

Speaker 4:
[57:58] It's a difficult time of year as well because it's New Year's Day and it's only two weeks away from his birthday. So I think all of that is having an impact as well.

Speaker 5:
[58:11] Absolutely it is. Yeah. What you're experiencing right now too, is that grief and the loss and the pain, and it's also you becoming unfolding, blossoming into that version of you. This is not like some far-off thing that hadn't happened yet, like you're in the becoming process of it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Of course, it doesn't feel great right now, but you're here.

Speaker 4:
[58:46] The thoughts that I've had and the feelings that I've had, I haven't tried to numb them. I haven't reached for the bottle.

Speaker 5:
[58:55] Yeah. That's huge.

Speaker 4:
[58:58] It is. I've just thought that I've done it without, that I've faced it and that I am facing it, that I'm dealing with it and it can change. It's changed even the course of talking it through this last half hour.

Speaker 5:
[59:17] Yeah. You're allowing those big heavy feelings to move through you instead of damming them up and stopping them. And trying to divert them. It's not pleasant. Grief and loss is never pleasant.

Speaker 4:
[59:35] No.

Speaker 5:
[59:36] But it's going to be there. It just stands outside the door and waits. And now you're so bravely and courageously opening the door and just letting it move through. And that takes as long as it takes. It's different for everybody. That's incredible right there, Sue. Thanks. Yeah. You know, we're kind of coming close to time today. And I just want to check in with you and just see how you're feeling now, what your thought processes are now versus, you know, even when we started our conversation.

Speaker 4:
[60:17] I do feel more positive. I do feel like I can see the light shining through the trees a little bit. I think I have to, I do write everything, I do write a lot. Something I started doing while I've been doing the path, I hadn't done that before. I think I need to just write everything down as I think it, to help me see a different way through.

Speaker 5:
[60:46] That's an incredibly transformative process if you allow it.

Speaker 4:
[60:51] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[60:51] Just write unedited, brutal, just honesty. Just whatever you feel and think, pour down to the page. Yeah. It can be incredibly cathartic and helpful, and it helps you organize those thoughts and feelings. They are just a swirl.

Speaker 4:
[61:13] It's all a swirl at the moment, but that's why I feel like I need to get something down. I need to write down the good stuff.

Speaker 5:
[61:20] Right. And it might be helpful just to practice kind of what we did earlier. As you notice it, see if you can just set the heavy suitcases of guilt down, and see what it's like not to punish yourself, if that sounds doable for you. It might be something to try and it's totally up to you.

Speaker 4:
[61:46] It has to be, doesn't it? It has to be worth trying.

Speaker 5:
[61:50] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[61:53] I must want that because I wouldn't have even taken the steps to do this and to free myself from drink, if I didn't want to free myself from the emotion that's holding me back.

Speaker 5:
[62:09] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[62:11] I think the bottom line is I'm doing this and I'm making myself find a way because that is the only way I can honor my son, because he would not want me wallowing in grief.

Speaker 5:
[62:26] Well, the grief is different from the guilt.

Speaker 4:
[62:29] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[62:30] Grief moves in its own time and has its needed and necessary. Guilt, shame.

Speaker 4:
[62:37] Yeah. It wouldn't want me having that.

Speaker 5:
[62:40] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[62:42] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[62:44] What's been valuable here for you in our conversation, Sue?

Speaker 4:
[62:48] What do you mean?

Speaker 5:
[62:49] Well, just in our talk together, what has been valuable for you to take away?

Speaker 4:
[62:57] I've been able to reach out on here and talk about things. There's no way I've talked to anybody else about it. I've found that with the path is that other people will talk about things, and I recognize things that they're talking about. It's so different because there's no way the things I've talked about on here and that I've talked about when I've been on calls. I don't talk to anybody else in real life like that, and it has helped so much. I've got to remember it's only two months. I thought doing this was just, right, this is how you stop drinking, and this is how you get on with it. I thought it was totally wrong to have feelings that are anything to do with anything other than around drinking. I very quickly discovered that it isn't, because all the emotions that you have, that you carry, are the reasons that you drink. So you can't separate them away, because it is all part of it. So that's why I'm taking away from this every day.

Speaker 5:
[64:14] Yeah, it's incredibly powerful to realize.

Speaker 4:
[64:18] It is.

Speaker 5:
[64:18] Yeah. This is a process, and each one is different. You're beautifully and bravely going through yours right now. And we really appreciate you, you know, expanding on that and being vulnerable enough here to do that. So thank you.

Speaker 4:
[64:35] Thank you for the time.

Speaker 5:
[64:37] Of course. Of course. And I just want to thank all our listeners too, for their time and attention. Y'all holding space here and allowing this to unfold. So we thank you all. And just stay curious and stay compassionate. Much love, everyone.

Speaker 1:
[64:59] Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If something in this conversation inspired you, made you feel seen, or sparked a shift, I'd be so grateful if you left a quick rating review. It helps others discover the show. And your words might just be the invitation someone else needs to begin their own journey. If you're curious about what it looks like to go deeper, to truly change your relationship with alcohol and find lasting freedom, I'd love to invite you to explore The Path. It's our signature program and community designed to walk with you every step of the way. You can learn more at nakedmindpath.com. Until next time, stay curious.