transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeart Radio. Elizabeth Dutton.

Speaker 2:
[00:04] Zaron Burnett.

Speaker 1:
[00:05] So good to see you, my friend.

Speaker 2:
[00:06] Hi, how are you?

Speaker 1:
[00:07] Oh, you know, I've just been sitting over here waiting to ask you a question, and that question is simple, straightforward, right to the point.

Speaker 2:
[00:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[00:14] Do you know what's ridiculous?

Speaker 2:
[00:15] I do. I do know what's ridiculous. You were sitting with us in the break room here at HQ the other day, and just doing a monologue about your favorite TV shows these days.

Speaker 1:
[00:27] I like how you put it, but yes.

Speaker 2:
[00:29] Well, I mean, it's like none of us could get a word in Edgewise, but I was just like, all right, tell me more about your pirate show. But then you were like, the best show on television, your new favorite show, and I haven't watched it yet, is Tracker on CBS. That's all you've been talking about. So I checked it out, and I was like, what's the trivia on Tracker? And so like, did you know the opening scene of each episode, the title Tracker has skyline images of the town or city where Coulter is based in that episode.

Speaker 1:
[01:03] Coulter with the hard R.

Speaker 2:
[01:04] Coulter with the hard R. The guy who plays Coulter Shaw, the main character, Justin Hartley, he shares two episodes with his real life wife.

Speaker 1:
[01:13] Oh, look at them.

Speaker 2:
[01:15] And his camping trailer is the iconic 2016 Airstream Pendleton 27 FB. So now we know what to chip in, do a GoFundMe for your birthday.

Speaker 1:
[01:26] I was told it was like a Rockford Files update.

Speaker 2:
[01:28] It appears to be modified slightly with the additional drawers and counter space where the lounge should be, Zaron.

Speaker 1:
[01:34] Okay, well, let's look at that upgrade.

Speaker 2:
[01:36] So it's not, it's got factory mods. They also made a hundred of these as a limited edition to celebrate the National Park Service Centennial.

Speaker 1:
[01:45] I like that.

Speaker 2:
[01:46] Yeah, and that model was only featured in the pilot and second episodes, and then they replaced it with a flying cloud. So you probably already know that because you've watched this a number of times.

Speaker 1:
[01:56] Can I tell you about the one that I saw?

Speaker 2:
[01:58] Did you know that Coulter Shaw's age at the time of his father's death was given at 15, and his brother had just turned 18? The date on the tombstone was 2003, and that would put Coulter's age at the beginning of the series is 36.

Speaker 1:
[02:11] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[02:12] But in real life, the guy who plays Coulter is 47.

Speaker 1:
[02:15] Good looking for him.

Speaker 2:
[02:17] He's a good looking 47.

Speaker 1:
[02:18] Apparently.

Speaker 2:
[02:19] Eric Grace took off part of season two for personal reasons.

Speaker 1:
[02:22] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[02:22] I don't know what that's about. You know, I hear rumors.

Speaker 1:
[02:27] I was looking for the show that's a spin-off of whatever, what's that Yellowstone, and it has Casey, the kid who's like, oh, he was like, it doesn't matter. But he was like, you know, I mistook the shows.

Speaker 2:
[02:41] Well, you watched all the seasons and then wouldn't stop telling us some about him. So did you know, I know you like watches, he wears an Omega Seamaster 300 in the first few episodes.

Speaker 1:
[02:51] It's an attractive watch.

Speaker 2:
[02:52] Were you looking at it?

Speaker 1:
[02:53] I did watch check him.

Speaker 2:
[02:54] Now I will tell you, there's a goof.

Speaker 1:
[02:56] Ooh, what's that?

Speaker 2:
[02:57] His GMC truck changes from a half ton to a three quarter ton heavier duty model between the first and second episode.

Speaker 1:
[03:06] We all pick up a little weight, Elizabeth. You know, he trucks included.

Speaker 2:
[03:09] Well, I mean, maybe he like made some money and then was like, I treat yourself. I want to be able to not see pedestrians at all. I can see the tops of their heads at a crosswalk. I don't want to see them at all.

Speaker 1:
[03:22] If they're adult height, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[03:23] I want to run over some children and have no clue. So, Tracker, your love of Tracker, that's ridiculous.

Speaker 1:
[03:32] I can't believe you're saddling me with that. That is ridiculous.

Speaker 2:
[03:36] It is, it is.

Speaker 1:
[03:37] Now, Elizabeth, I got something ridiculous for you. Yeah, go ahead. You know how sometimes a person is born into wealth, right? Sometimes a person is born into fame, and sometimes maybe their family is what shapes them, like it's like the whole family legacy. Sometimes you have like scions of wealth, like the Kennedys or perhaps it's athletics, like LeBron James and Bronnie.

Speaker 2:
[03:57] Political family.

Speaker 1:
[03:58] Political, business, entertainment. Sometimes the family's legacy ends up, the imprimatur gets passed on. And we call those people Nepo babies, right?

Speaker 2:
[04:07] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[04:08] But Elizabeth, what about a child who's born into crime? A criminal Nepo baby. This is Ridiculous Crime, a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists and cons. It's always 99% murder free and 100% ridiculous.

Speaker 2:
[04:53] Not outrageous.

Speaker 1:
[04:54] Elizabeth.

Speaker 2:
[04:55] This is happenin.

Speaker 1:
[04:56] Now, we often tell each other these stories of criminals who make bad choices, dumb choices, they get themselves involved in some good old fashioned ridiculous crime.

Speaker 2:
[05:03] Yeah, that's basically every episode.

Speaker 1:
[05:06] Right, but today I wanna tell you the story of a crimer who didn't exactly make those same choices. Instead, he was born into crime. Yeah, his name is John McAvoy, British lad. He was born over there in London in the early 80s. The date, if you're curious, was September 26th, 1983. And if you're keeping track, doing the math, think that makes him a Libra.

Speaker 2:
[05:27] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[05:28] I don't know what that means.

Speaker 2:
[05:29] Well, you know, when people tell me things like, it's because I'm a Libra, that's when I say, that's when my mind shut off.

Speaker 1:
[05:37] So you stop listening.

Speaker 2:
[05:38] I absolutely stop.

Speaker 1:
[05:38] That's why I told you. Now just bliss out on the rest of this.

Speaker 2:
[05:42] I'm just going to write a birthday card to this cat.

Speaker 1:
[05:44] So anyway, John McAvoy, British lad, Southeast London boy. I'm sure you know what that means. Comes from hardscrabble times. He was a hardscrabble Libra. He was raised in a household of women. There was his sister, there was his mother. There was also his five aunties. And the missing man obviously was his father. He had passed away a month after John McAvoy was born.

Speaker 2:
[06:05] Oh, tragic.

Speaker 1:
[06:06] That left his son without many male influences at home, which can lead to teasing from other kids, which is what happened to McAvoy. But other than the teasing, he remembers his upbringing being fairly normal. And as much as he was raised in a largely female family, he did have some uncles and some older cousins around. So I don't want to make too much of a thing of him being mostly raised by women. That's not the point, but do keep it in mind because we'll come back to that shortly. Anyway, like I said, his mother worked as a florist. She strived to give John McAvoy a fairly normal life. As he tells it, quote, she did everything she could to make sure her two children had everything they ever needed. Right? Now, young McAvoy was an active lad, charismatic, enthusiastic boy. He was also outgoing. He was outdoorsy. He liked to fish and to camp and you know, like tracker tracker, like to do Boy Scout activities like tracker. So he was always very much as rough and tumble kid is my point, right? Very physical. And then one day, his mom brings home a new man. John McAvoy was eight years old at the time, right? Prime age for a boy who's missing that male presence at home in his formative years. And so when he meets this man, this cat named Billy Tobin, well, he thinks he's the coolest. I mean, Billy Tobin, he's this gregarious, big personality, larger than life sort of guy. He looked good. He smelled good. He dressed well. Like I'm talking looking crisp.

Speaker 2:
[07:29] Kind of like Tracker.

Speaker 1:
[07:30] Like Tracker in his dark flax, his dark shirt. He had new black leather shoes on, which all, they were freshly shined. This all jumped out to the boy's young eyes. I mean, basically the man looked like money, right? Like, you're a money kid. Now, as McAvoy told The Guardian, even though I was young, I could tell the stuff he had on was very expensive. And as he further explained to The Independent, another news outlet over in the UK, quote, Billy was rich. Billy had everything. He was always dressed immaculately and had money, cars and property. I idolized him. He was the person I wanted to be when I grew up. Oh, I forgot to mention, his mama's new man, Billy Tobin, was also a bank robber.

Speaker 2:
[08:09] Perfect.

Speaker 1:
[08:10] A true British hard man.

Speaker 2:
[08:12] Perfect.

Speaker 1:
[08:13] Right? And since he had no son to call his own, Billy Tobin, who he liked, young John McAvoy, you know, it must have felt nice to have this kid looking up at him with those eyes filled with like a child's respect and a sense of awe, right? So he dug it. And so he, they bond the two of them. They form this relationship. And then his mom went and married Billy Tobin. So now the two go really close because he's officially his stepdad and he has this now a male figure at home to pattern himself after, to want to be just like who he adored and admired.

Speaker 2:
[08:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:44] And okay. You know how your nephew idolizes his dad?

Speaker 2:
[08:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:47] How he wants to dress like him. And one day run a bar with him when he grows up. Well, their relationship kind of came to mine when I was reading about McAvoy, because he just said, you know, when this guy comes into his life, it was a really powerful experience.

Speaker 2:
[09:01] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:01] Right. So I just kept thinking of your nephew just being like, I want to be just like him. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[09:05] That's a, I guess that's a lucky thing to have like this role model of, you know, a cool guy that you both like and respect. Yeah. Yeah. And who's good to you and total.

Speaker 1:
[09:16] And also it's like teaching the ins and outs of life and all that.

Speaker 2:
[09:19] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:20] So as I said, McAvoy born in 83, he basically, so he grew up in the Reagan years or over in the UK, they were the Thatcher years. And as McAvoy told the Guardian, I grew up in the era of Margaret Thatcher. It was all about me. I wanted to own British telecom. I wanted to be a billionaire. Right. So as you can hear between his natural ambition in the Thatcher Reagan era, the Generation Me, and his role model being a British hard man, his course starts to take an evident shape.

Speaker 2:
[09:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:47] He's also a smart kid. He wasn't necessarily a good student in school, but he was a reader. So he studied the lives of great men of history because he wanted to be like a great man one day. So he read about Churchill and Hitler and Napoleon, and he studied how they rose and how they fell, and how they made their names, and why we still talk about them today. So basically, he was just this boy studying how a man can have a lasting impact on the world. And again, his path is starting to take shape, right? So Elizabeth, he learns about his own family's criminal greatness at around this same point. Apparently, one month after he was born, not only did his actual father pass away, but his uncle, his dad's brother, Mickey McAvoy, was part of this heist team, right? And he pulls this job.

Speaker 2:
[10:35] Oh, so his biological father was a bad man. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[10:40] Yes. So and his uncle was like a legendary bad man.

Speaker 2:
[10:43] Oh, I see.

Speaker 1:
[10:44] Yeah. He was a British hard man who took part in the Brinks Mott heist. I'm not sure. It's a wild story. A gang of thieves, they steal gold and diamonds and cash from a Heathrow airport warehouse. Yeah. And it was one of the biggest robberies in British history. They get away with like 26 million pounds in loot.

Speaker 2:
[11:01] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[11:02] Now, before you ask, yes, I did the translation for you, but this was a two-stepper because first I had to update the present British pound rate. And so that would be about 89,560,766 British pounds.

Speaker 2:
[11:18] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[11:18] So roughly 90 million pounds. Now, if we exchange that into US dollars, that comes out to be in today's money, $120 million in gold, diamonds, cash. Like I said, hell of a score. They called it the crime of the century in England.

Speaker 2:
[11:34] Sure. They've had a bunch of those.

Speaker 1:
[11:36] They keep saying that. It's kind of a thing they throw around. So of course, your boys in the flying squad, they're all over it. It didn't take them long to round up the gang. By January of the next year, the flying squad had arrested most of this heist gang. But not before they had melted down the stolen gold and thus most of the gold was never recovered. So anyway, when John McAvoy was just 12 years old, he sees a movie on TV called Fool's Gold. He watches it and it turns out to be about his uncle's gang and all the gold they stole at Heathrow. Yeah, and the TV movie stars this legend of British crime movies. As McAvoy remembered it, quote, it was one of the big moments of my childhood. Sean Bean sitting on 26 million pounds worth of gold bars and it all being glamorized. Oh wow. Right? And boom, just like that, now his life path is set. All the pieces have fallen into place. I mean, look, he's like, I'm the nephew of Sean Bean. And if this isn't enough, you have to keep in mind, he still had Billy Tobin at home and then all of his other British hard men associates.

Speaker 2:
[12:38] He has a legacy to live up to.

Speaker 1:
[12:40] Totally. And they're also just all around the house. He's like who he knows men to be, or these British hard men.

Speaker 2:
[12:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[12:46] And they're making the life of crime look good because they also dress well, just like Billy. And as McAvoy told the Independent back in 2004, the Telegraph had published another British newspaper. It published in this in-depth article that outlined the history of organized crime in Britain. And when he was flipping through that expose, the Telegraph focused on five of the most legendary criminals in British history. Three of those five were either in his family or they were around him when he was growing up.

Speaker 2:
[13:12] No way.

Speaker 1:
[13:13] He was born into it. So it should be no surprise that John McAvoy spent his late teenage years emulating these British hard men who'd helped raise him and who he looked up to. I mean, why wouldn't he? Wouldn't you? Wouldn't I? So his child was basically, it's like the opening monologue from like a Scorsese film, right? That's like his whole childhood, but the British dudes instead of Italians in New York. Now again, these men, they're rolling, right? So this is like, it's basically like the first third of a Scorsese film and everything's going well. They're pulling off the jobs, right? All the guys have money, class, everybody looks good, smells good. And if they are unlucky, they're just in prison, right? But people still speak about them with respect. So he's like, this is the life. As McAvoy told The Independent, quote, it's amazing how your whole life can be completely warped by the people who are around you and influence you. I looked up to these men because I had no alternative. They were my role models and I wanted to be like them. I knew nothing different.

Speaker 2:
[14:08] That's the thing. One of the things I learned when I was working in prison is it was very eye-opening for me in terms of what I saw as normal versus other people's normal. And I saw a shocking difference on a severe scale, but then I've learned to kind of adjust that for the everyday type things. But there I had a lot of students who, no one in their family growing up ever had like a W-2 or had a job with a consistent paycheck. They, grandma's dealt drugs, parents, aunts, uncles. And they, so it was like so outside the realm, just as for me, it was outside the realm of understanding to think that like my whole family would be in a criminal enterprise.

Speaker 1:
[14:53] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[14:54] And so it's like, if you're from that, in that from childhood, from birth up, you don't know anything different. And then the rest of the world's like, oh, what's wrong with you? It's like, well, no one ever showed me anything.

Speaker 1:
[15:05] These are the only choices I know.

Speaker 2:
[15:06] Yeah, exactly. This is all I know how to navigate. And so it's, I can imagine for this kid, you have the isolation of this being all you know and then the outside glamorizing it.

Speaker 1:
[15:19] Totally, completely. So basically at this point, as he's becoming a teenager, he decides, I too want to become a thorn in the side of the flying squad.

Speaker 2:
[15:28] Yeah, it sounds right.

Speaker 1:
[15:29] Like one day.

Speaker 2:
[15:29] Well, and as you're growing up, all you hear is just like how horrible the flying squad is.

Speaker 1:
[15:34] Completely.

Speaker 2:
[15:34] And like just getting one over on them, you're thinking, yeah, this family tradition.

Speaker 1:
[15:39] Totally. Stick it to the authorities. And also as a boy, it's like you think you're invincible and vulnerable. Nothing's gonna happen to you.

Speaker 2:
[15:46] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[15:47] Well, Elizabeth, at this point, he didn't wait to grow up and become a British hard man. He's like, what if I was a British hard teen?

Speaker 2:
[15:54] Hard boy.

Speaker 1:
[15:55] At age 14, his stepfather, Billy Tobin, he brings him into the family business. And how does he do that? Does he like sit down and have a talk? No, he just drops a duffel bag of cash on the family's kitchen table. Inside of the duffel bag is 250,000 pounds sterling. And Tobin's like, hey, boy, I need you to watch this cash. And when like a business associate of mine comes around the house, you give it to him. And if you do as I ask, I'll give you a thousand pounds. So that's his first job. This is he does as instructed and he gives him the 250,000 pounds. He gets a thousand pounds for pulling the job. He's 14 years old and now he's an aspiring British hard man. Two years later, age 16, McAvoy pulls a full Tony Soprano and he got himself a gun. It wasn't any old gun. He bought himself a sawed-off shotgun. Because that's a professional criminal tool. You mean business.

Speaker 2:
[16:50] Because it's doubly illegal.

Speaker 1:
[16:53] Exactly. Doubly illegal and is good for firing in a room of people. You're like, oh yeah, this is a close up work. So when he stepped at Tobin, he catches sight of the sawed-off shotgun. He's like, absolutely not. So he takes the gun away from this 16-year-old stepson. But then he also tells young John McAvoy, I'm going to pull you further into family business. I don't want you making mistakes like this.

Speaker 2:
[17:15] Start with knives.

Speaker 1:
[17:16] You're going to do this mate. You're going to be a proper hard man. So he gets his stepson some work as a scout for robbery targets. He's like, you're young. People won't think it's weird that you're on a motorbike, just chilling around. So he becomes a lookout. He's sent out to, and he's told, he's given instructions. You have to memorize license plates, record the schedule for the cash delivery truck you're watching. Also, you're going to be used as a messenger in our My Crime Network, this go-between. He does well. He doesn't ever mess up. Eventually, Billy Tobin gets him a job, like an actual heist team. So he's sent out to work on some cash delivery trucks. He's like, these are what we rob, boy. So by this point, John McAvoy, he's well on his way. As he told The Guardian, I didn't really have friends my own age. From 15, I was with men who were in their 30s, 40s and 50s. Now, he wasn't complaining about that. He enjoyed his time amongst the professional thieves and British hard men. As McAvoy also told The Guardian, I spent as much time as I could around these people because I wanted to learn from them. And I wanted to understand how that world operated. So this is his learning opportunity. As you said, this is what he knows and what he can learn and get better at. So basically, he's living inside a throwback Guy Ritchie movie, right? And who wouldn't, once again, why I would want to do this if you're him or me. So obviously, he makes his bones, he joins up as a professional crimer with his stepdad's crew. But before we get deeper into crime, let's take a break.

Speaker 2:
[18:46] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[18:47] And after these messages, we'll get back to getting busy with the crime.

Speaker 2:
[18:50] Nice.

Speaker 1:
[19:11] We're back, Elizabeth.

Speaker 2:
[19:12] Yeah, we are.

Speaker 1:
[19:13] So where were we?

Speaker 2:
[19:15] I was reading tracker recaps while listening to, I'm just trying to catch up with you.

Speaker 1:
[19:23] Trying to be like me.

Speaker 2:
[19:23] I don't know the episodes as well as you do, so.

Speaker 1:
[19:27] Ask me about, like, anything season one, I can tell you whatever you missed.

Speaker 2:
[19:30] This back and forth.

Speaker 1:
[19:30] Yeah, we can cover this. All right, so young John McAvoy, he's taken up in the family business of crime. At this point, he's a teenager, 16, 17 years old. He's spending all of his time around British hardbend in their 40s and 50s and their late 30s. Elizabeth, have you ever spent time with a kid where you can tell they spent, like, a lot of time with their grandparents? Oh, have I? Like, they use old expressions.

Speaker 2:
[19:52] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[19:53] Maybe even, like, they walk with, like, a shovel and gate.

Speaker 2:
[19:56] 100 percent.

Speaker 1:
[19:57] Well, that's him.

Speaker 2:
[19:57] I know a couple people like that.

Speaker 1:
[19:59] Do you?

Speaker 2:
[19:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:59] So that's him, but with British hardbend. So he just, he sounds exactly like them. He just doesn't have the money yet. Yeah. So McAvoy, he's doing this with the career criminals hanging out. He's doing all the grunt work they ask him to do. He's being a lookout, a bag man. He's transporting stolen goods, that sort of thing. Like, for instance, if they needed to move, like, guns across the country because they were highly illegal, they'd have John do it. He's young. He's got plenty of time to get a long stretch. You know, the rest of them would get put away.

Speaker 2:
[20:26] It's not even a long, I mean, you get, like, a juvenile offense.

Speaker 1:
[20:29] Yeah, exactly. First strike. They're like, yeah, right. So at this point, he's basically apprenticing in a crime guild, right? And with the hopes that one day he might become a journeyman criminal. And meanwhile, he's also shaping what kind of man he will be, like what his values are, but the criminal and the not so criminal because his stepdad, old Billy Tobin, he taught John McAvoy how to act like a man. He's like, you know, here's how you're gonna need to be. You want to be assertive, but you also want to be smart. And he taught him, like, also at the same time, crime 101 rules. So, like, for instance, never talk about crime inside of a house because it might be bugged. That stuck with him. He also taught him, only trust a few criminals that you know. Make them your crew. And also, never trust women. Now, I think as sexist as that might sound, it's more like never trust anyone who knows all your business, but ain't a criminal too. You know, like, they have some, they can, they can dime you out for a reward. I think it's essentially.

Speaker 2:
[21:22] Well, and these guys aren't really, like, the best behaved. And so, the women have leverage, right? So they know, these men know, I'm going to treat women poorly. And these women are going to need to get back at me. So don't give them any.

Speaker 1:
[21:37] And the stories we've covered in the past, it's been borne out that the women have dimed out some of these guys, like, especially the British hard men in particular.

Speaker 2:
[21:46] Well, because they turn out to be a cad and you think, all right, buddy.

Speaker 1:
[21:48] Yeah, or they try to run off with their girlfriend with the money that you helped them heist.

Speaker 2:
[21:52] All right, let's see how this is gonna work out for you.

Speaker 1:
[21:55] And I could be wrong. It could just be old fashioned sexism. I'm just like, anyway, the point is his stepdad, he teaches him like a code of conduct for career criminals. For instance, he told his stepson, you don't hurt women, you don't hurt children, you don't hurt old people, which I think we can all get behind. At least I can get behind.

Speaker 2:
[22:13] I don't know about you, but he's about physically hurting.

Speaker 1:
[22:16] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like you can also don't really steal from them directly. Yeah. Indirectly, like, you know.

Speaker 2:
[22:24] That's something that I noted in Oakland changed over the years. It used to be that the criminals didn't mess with old folks.

Speaker 1:
[22:32] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[22:32] And now they mug them and steal their cars.

Speaker 1:
[22:34] They consider them easy targets. I wish we could get back to that.

Speaker 2:
[22:37] I know.

Speaker 1:
[22:37] Right?

Speaker 2:
[22:38] I know.

Speaker 1:
[22:39] And also he had other standard operating values he imparted to the boy, like never show weakness, right?

Speaker 2:
[22:45] Never let him see sweat.

Speaker 1:
[22:46] Exactly. So he also taught him to despise and detest all authority. He's like, anyone with a badge, a gun, a gavel, they are the enemy. And so, yeah, as McAvoy recalled, quote, there was always this tone of anti-authority and how corrupt the system was. Obviously, I didn't realize I was absorbing all this stuff. Yeah. So the kid's no idiot though, right? He's a smart kid, like I said. And remember, he'd seen it firsthand with his uncle. He knew people who chose crime did go to prison, you know? Like it happened. He knew that was an occupational hazard, but at the same time, like I said, he's young, he's arrogant because he thinks he's invulnerable and invincible.

Speaker 2:
[23:24] His family is not lying when they say the system is corrupt. Totally.

Speaker 1:
[23:28] It ain't wrong. So at this point, oh, I forgot also, like so many crimers we cover, he was in love with the silver screen and all the crimes he saw up there.

Speaker 2:
[23:38] The glamorization is so good.

Speaker 1:
[23:40] And so he always thought he'd be the one to beat the odds. Like, oh, I've seen the stories. I know how this plays out.

Speaker 2:
[23:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:46] As McAvoy told the Guardian, I think it's always in your subconscious, but you think you're going to be the one to live that Hollywood life, right? You're going to be the one to sail off into the sunset.

Speaker 2:
[23:56] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:57] Yeah. Meanwhile, he's becoming a known associate of a large number of career criminals, which puts him on the radar of the Metro police and the flying squad. He definitely drew enough attention that a few police inspectors, because by the time he was 18 years old, he had undercover cops following him, surveilling him.

Speaker 2:
[24:15] No way.

Speaker 1:
[24:15] Oh yeah. So he was, quote, always very surveillance aware. You would sometimes spot the same person a couple of times.

Speaker 2:
[24:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:23] So he's legit now. He's officially made it into the book. He's a real British hard man.

Speaker 2:
[24:28] They've got his picture on the wall.

Speaker 1:
[24:30] And also, once again, he's still hanging out with 48, 50 year old to a career criminal. So it's kind of fun to maybe bust him. Maybe you can knock him off this crime path if you're a cop and you're a true believer. And like I said, he's 18 years old. So of course, he ends up not being the one to beat the odds. He gets tripped up by Johnny Law. His first pinch came, well, actually, it came rather early. He pretty much never had a real chance at it going straight because you just can imagine that moment, you're 18 years old and that's your first serious pinch. I mean, like this is your life, Elizabeth. Like, can you imagine that? No, don't answer that. It's a trick question.

Speaker 2:
[25:06] It is?

Speaker 1:
[25:07] Because instead, close your eyes.

Speaker 2:
[25:08] My eyes are closed.

Speaker 1:
[25:10] I want you to picture it. It's evening time in South London, and you Elizabeth are behind the wheel, because you are a getaway driver. But not just any getaway driver, you are young John McAvoy. And at the moment, you're feeling a proper bad man. You're working a job for one of your stepdad's friends from his criminal underworld. The planned heist is a robbery with a take home of roughly 250,000 pounds. The robbery goes well, you and the crew are able to break in, get the goods, get out. Only trouble is, someone must have managed to trip an alarm, because now you're behind the wheel, earning your money as a getaway driver, and a pair of cops are giving chase. The sirens are not far behind you. You yank hard on the wheel, execute a right turn at high speed, the car stays on the road. Weren't sure the wheels could take that much action, but the grip holds true to the road with a squeal of tires. The two cop cars giving chase also manage to make that same hard turn. You try again to lose them with a fast left and then a quick hard right, but from the insistent police sirens you can tell you haven't lost them yet. You tell the crew with you, it's time for plan B. After you execute another set of turns, you slam on the brakes, the car slides to a screeching stop, the doors all spring open, you and the men inside try to make an escape on foot. You take off running. Before the cops stop their cars and get out for the foot chase, you toss your gun, best not to get caught. With that, you hear it land and go skittering away under a hedgerow where you hope like hell the cops won't find it. You're in South London in a neighborhood you know well, and now you're on your own. The others didn't run off in the same direction as you. Since you're alone, you decide it's time to strip down and, you know, try to blend in. Your stepdad always told you to wear shorts underneath your pants on a job, so that way, if you need to escape, you can lose your pants and pretend you're just out for a jog. So you do as you were taught, you yank off your pants, you toss them in a trash bin and start jogging. As you hear your rough and jagged breaths warm the night air, you eye the scene, looking for somewhere to go. You spot a garden fence and decide to hop it. Perhaps you'll blend in better. You continue jogging past the garden. A few blocks later, as you scan the road, you begin to think, you just may have gotten away with it. You slow down when you spy one of those red phone booths, you gank open the door and step inside, you place a collect call and listen as it rings. Thank god your friend answered. You tell him the score and ask if he can come pick you up. You tell him the address. He's more than happy to come give you a lift. You thank him profusely and hang up. When you step out of the phone booth, you see that you won't need that ride from your friend after all, because you are swarmed by a set of armed police officers. Somehow they tracked you down. Just like that, you're arrested for the first time in your life.

Speaker 2:
[28:04] Oh, baby's first arrest.

Speaker 1:
[28:06] No, after that first arrest.

Speaker 2:
[28:07] Wearing shorts.

Speaker 1:
[28:09] Isn't that a great move?

Speaker 2:
[28:10] It's a totally great move.

Speaker 1:
[28:11] Just always have running shorts on underneath your normal outfit.

Speaker 2:
[28:15] But like dress shoes.

Speaker 1:
[28:16] Yeah, exactly. So not only was young John McAvoy's crime career now made fully real, so was his prison sentence. He caught a five-year stretch for possession of a firearm. I guess they found his gun. He spends a full year just locked up in solitary confinement, which is rough, right? And apparently he kept taking off his prison uniform because it identified him as a flight risk. And if you plan to escape, that makes trouble for you. So he was like made to wear this giant flight risk warning.

Speaker 2:
[28:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:45] And then he would take it off and they're like back in the hole.

Speaker 2:
[28:47] So he's just naked?

Speaker 1:
[28:48] Yeah. So just with dress shoes.

Speaker 2:
[28:51] With dress shoes.

Speaker 1:
[28:52] Anyway, he never managed to escape. Instead, he stayed connected to the outside world by following the news of the day. He also did the usual prison thing of taking up reading. He read all sorts of books, including, interestingly, Nelson Mandela's Long Walk to Freedom.

Speaker 2:
[29:06] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[29:07] Right? I wonder if it's the title of the book that drew his eye because he's dreaming of escape or if he was genuinely curious about Mandela's tie behind bars.

Speaker 2:
[29:14] I mean, at any point is he reading that and thinking like the audacity of me to try and find relation with this?

Speaker 1:
[29:21] The freedom struggle of his South African brothers and sisters?

Speaker 2:
[29:24] Yeah. Yeah, that, that.

Speaker 1:
[29:28] One other thing McAvoy did while he was locked up was get insanely yoked.

Speaker 2:
[29:33] Oh, yeah. That's, you know, I feel like that's a logical thing to do.

Speaker 1:
[29:39] Totally. Get prison-jacked. One, you don't get messed with. Two, you got the time.

Speaker 2:
[29:43] You got the time. I would just read and then just get yoked.

Speaker 1:
[29:51] If you want to squeeze my traps.

Speaker 2:
[29:53] Well, it's just like also, it's for, you know, a defense mechanism.

Speaker 1:
[29:57] Yeah, you're in prison with a bunch of other men who were yoked.

Speaker 2:
[30:00] Yeah, you don't want to look all sickly and like eating honey buns and watching daytime television.

Speaker 1:
[30:08] So when he wasn't reading, he was always working out. So he did like thousands upon thousands of pushups, sit ups, burpees, all sorts of bodyweight exercise.

Speaker 2:
[30:17] Was he even looks maxing?

Speaker 1:
[30:18] Yeah, pretty much. Jailhouse looks maxing. He did what he would call cell circuits. So he turned his prison cell into like his own personal gym.

Speaker 2:
[30:26] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:26] Which again, I totally respect. All in all, McAvoy served three years of his sentence and he got out early. He was 21 years old when he stepped back out into the free world.

Speaker 2:
[30:35] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:35] And obviously insanely jacked. So what does he do now?

Speaker 2:
[30:39] I bet you he kind of looked like Tracker.

Speaker 1:
[30:41] I bet he did, Elizabeth. So you want to guess what this Tracker looked like, decided to do with his newfound freedom?

Speaker 2:
[30:48] A professional bodybuilder.

Speaker 1:
[30:49] No, he goes right back to pulling jobs with his stepdad and his network of British hard men.

Speaker 2:
[30:54] British Tracker.

Speaker 1:
[30:55] Yeah, he returned to the criminal underworld of London. He was welcomed back like he's passed through a test.

Speaker 2:
[31:00] Well, sure.

Speaker 1:
[31:01] Now he graduated being a new level of criminal.

Speaker 2:
[31:04] Yeah, and he didn't rat anyone to take him down with him. So he's like he did the time solid. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[31:10] So at this point, he starts working whatever jobs come his way. He pulls some heists, he's shook off the prison fields, right? He gets back to business as a crimer. This lasts for two years before he's busted again.

Speaker 2:
[31:22] Oh, man.

Speaker 1:
[31:22] The year is 2005. And earlier in that same day that he gets busted, McAvoy had met with this guy, Kevin Brown, from the Untouchables. That's not like a middle, like, you know, bar band, middle-aged bar band, the Untouchables. It was a London crime gang, the Untouchables.

Speaker 2:
[31:39] I like to imagine that it was like a stage production of the film, The Untouchables. And it was the cast.

Speaker 1:
[31:45] He's like, which part did Andy Garcia play? I want that one.

Speaker 2:
[31:47] I want that one. That's me, Dibs.

Speaker 1:
[31:49] I can do that voice. So that cat, Kevin Brown, he's a friend of his stepdad, Billy Tobin. And Brown had a big job coming up and he wanted to bring McAvoy in on it, right? So he had him join his crew for the big job. It's going to be a heist, this life-changing sort of heist, he promised. And at first, McAvoy is like, I just got out a little while ago, I'm not sure. So he turns Kevin Brown down, right? And then he's like, I don't, nothing against you, Kevin, but I don't want to be part of this heist.

Speaker 2:
[32:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:16] Kevin Brown didn't take a no for an answer. He kept after McAvoy until he finally agreed to take part in the heist. So the day before the heist, McAvoy had been in Spain. He had been enjoying that taste of the good life, right? He'd done enough crime to get himself a little crime vacation, right? He's doing the kind of things you pull a crime job to do. He was down there eating well, Kevin well, like hanging out by the coast.

Speaker 2:
[32:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[32:42] It's like one of those like one last job, then I'm out. He had that, but like young, right?

Speaker 2:
[32:46] My favorite.

Speaker 1:
[32:47] So he gets back from Spain and Kevin Brown is on him, right? To join his crew, pull this epic heist. And eventually, I guess his mind was swayed by his time in Spain, like I can dip back down.

Speaker 2:
[32:57] He's like, I just got back from Barcelona.

Speaker 1:
[32:59] Exactly. I want to go back. I need a little scratch. So McAvoy agrees to pull this job, right? Take part in the heist. The target is a security van transporting a shipment of cash. It's pretty standard fare for these guys. And apparently, Kevin Brown knew some inside dope because he knew about how much cash was in this money truck and what to expect and what the route was. So they pull a quick stick up move basically, and they're going to just walk away with millions of pounds. At this point, McAvoy is 22 years old. He's in the car, on his way, about to do some real British hard man crime. And he's the driver. He's the getaway driver for this job. And while he's driving along, headed to the job, he spots an unmarked police car headed right at him. Yeah. And he's like, well, that's not good. And he spins around, or maybe looks in the rear view mirror. I don't know. And he sees that there's another unmarked police car behind him.

Speaker 2:
[33:48] Oh, that's really not good.

Speaker 1:
[33:49] And then he looks over, off to the left, and he sees a third unmarked cop car heading at him from that direction. It's an old fashioned ambush.

Speaker 2:
[33:57] Oh, man.

Speaker 1:
[33:58] Everyone in the car gets busted. I guess the police also had some inside dope about the cash transport. Turns out the police had been surveilling the crew for not weeks, but months. They knew pretty much everything.

Speaker 2:
[34:10] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[34:11] So when this crime gang, the Untouchables, makes their move on the cash truck job, the police spring their ambush and suddenly the Untouchables needed a new name because they all got touched that day.

Speaker 2:
[34:20] They were 100% touchable.

Speaker 1:
[34:21] Yeah, like mad touchable.

Speaker 2:
[34:22] They're like, okay, from now on, we're the Uncrustables.

Speaker 1:
[34:26] We're tasty and we're quick. Now, McAvoy didn't go down without at least putting up a fight. He was the getaway driver. So since he's behind the wheel, when the police spring their trap, he spots the ambush in time to try to evade it. He punches it and the car speeds off from the police. The car darts through traffic. They go, they're taking back streets of South London.

Speaker 2:
[34:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:45] And the way McAvoy tells it, quote, I just remember this internal dialogue in my head thinking, I'm not going back to prison. And honestly, I was fully prepared to die in that moment to get away from them. Right?

Speaker 2:
[34:56] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[34:57] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[34:58] Rather than go to prison.

Speaker 1:
[34:59] Totally. And he'd been chased before. So he knew what happens when you get caught. He ran like hell, knowing all too well that sometimes you do get lucky. Fortunately, he did not get lucky, Elizabeth. Instead, he went up high on a curb at high speed, knocked the wheel, smashed the getaway car into a lamp post. Pretty soon, the engine is sitting in the passenger compartment of the car. Car's done. McAvoy tries to hoof it. He's like, I ran last time. Maybe I can get away this time. He didn't strip down this time, though.

Speaker 2:
[35:26] See, that was the problem.

Speaker 1:
[35:28] By this point, the police had put up a helicopter. So it's now thrown around like a spotlight and reporting his movements as he's trying to flee on foot. He almost still got away with it, but he took a wrong turn, hits a dead end in an alley. And when he spins around to backtrack, there's cops waiting for him at the other end of the alley. So now they had their guns drawn.

Speaker 2:
[35:46] It was bad news.

Speaker 1:
[35:47] So McAvoy at this point is certain that they were going to squeeze off of you and just end it all for him. He thought like they're going to pop me, but they didn't. Instead they gave him, well, they gave his life one hell of a metaphor. He was caught in a dead end. No way out. In the trial, he pleads guilty to a count of conspiracy to commit robbery. He also pleads guilty to one count of possession of firearms with an intent to commit robbery. And he was handed not one, but two life sentences.

Speaker 2:
[36:12] Oh, right.

Speaker 1:
[36:13] They're serious about guns in the UK. And this time, he's also branded a double category A prisoner, which is like their top level maximum security prison. So this is now his new life. So next young John McAvoy, gets sent to Belmarsh Prison. Elizabeth, you watch a lot. I mean a lot of British criminal shows. I assume you know about Belmarsh Prison.

Speaker 2:
[36:36] I do.

Speaker 1:
[36:37] Yeah. So apparently from what I read, it's like a British super max prison.

Speaker 2:
[36:41] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:41] Right. And only the finest fellow inmates to spend the rest of your two life sentences with.

Speaker 2:
[36:46] Yeah. They don't play around.

Speaker 1:
[36:47] Yeah. So you get to grow old and gray with some real nice fellas.

Speaker 2:
[36:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:50] And like from McAvoy, one of his fellow prisoners was the Islamic fundamentalist Abu Hamza al-Masri.

Speaker 2:
[36:56] Oh yeah, that guy.

Speaker 1:
[36:57] Right. So they must have had a lot to talk about.

Speaker 2:
[36:59] Sure. Well, you know, spot me, is what they say.

Speaker 1:
[37:01] I'm not sure if you remember Abu Hamza, but he was a real deal. He had one eye and no hands. That was the result of him basically trying to grab a landmine in Afghanistan when he was fighting against the Soviets. And this is also how he got his nickname Captain Hook. Now Abu Hamza, he eventually became a cleric in London, and then he gets busted for inciting terrorism in 2004. Because this is like during that wild west post 9-11 period. Where you could get popped for just like inciting terrorism.

Speaker 2:
[37:28] And then it's 2004, because wasn't the July 7th, that was 2005.

Speaker 1:
[37:34] I believe so, yes. Yeah. So in 2005 is when McAvoy gets sent inside. So what's McAvoy's reaction to being locked up on two life sentences? It's a great question, Elizabeth.

Speaker 2:
[37:45] Just pump iron.

Speaker 1:
[37:46] Apparently he was still deep in what his stepdad had taught him. So he wasn't going to let the warden or the prison guards break him. He was like, F authority. He's going to be a hard case through and through. His enemy is any form of authority, right? He's 22 years old, right?

Speaker 2:
[38:00] He's 22.

Speaker 1:
[38:02] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:02] So he has like plenty of life sentences.

Speaker 1:
[38:05] Plenty of time ahead of him to fight Johnny Law from inside of a Supermax prison.

Speaker 2:
[38:09] Right? And it's all, it's obviously been working really well for you thus far.

Speaker 1:
[38:12] Totally. Now, lucky for him, he still had plenty of criminal role models.

Speaker 2:
[38:16] Captain Hook, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[38:17] His uncle Mickey, who had been locked up for 16 years at this point, after he pulled that Brinks Mott job back in 83. So his uncle Mickey told McAvoy to keep his mind right, make sure he kept up with life outside, read the papers, listen to the news on the radio, avoid prison politics, that would keep him out of some obvious harm and some like, oh, he gets stabbed up, right? So meanwhile, McAvoy also came up with his own plan for surviving prison, as he tells it, quote, this is not my life. I just want to get out of this place as quick as I can and get my life back. So basically, he plans to bust out.

Speaker 2:
[38:49] He should have written a book.

Speaker 1:
[38:50] He'll find the perfect moment and escape from Bell Marsh.

Speaker 2:
[38:53] Good luck.

Speaker 1:
[38:55] Do you think you can pull that one off? Well, hold that thought and after these messages, Elizabeth will return to the slammer and see if John McAvoy can bust his way back out to freedom. We're back, Elizabeth.

Speaker 2:
[39:26] Yes, we are.

Speaker 1:
[39:27] You're ready to get down in Belmarsh Prison?

Speaker 2:
[39:29] Born ready, baby.

Speaker 1:
[39:30] Let's see if John McAvoy can get himself free.

Speaker 2:
[39:33] Yeah, I mean, maybe he'll surprise me. Yeah, right?

Speaker 1:
[39:36] He's a man of contradictions. Not really.

Speaker 2:
[39:40] He's a man of constant sorrow.

Speaker 1:
[39:42] Now, before he can escape from the British version of a super max prison, first he gets a visit from his mom, right? As he would put it, his mum.

Speaker 2:
[39:49] His mum.

Speaker 1:
[39:49] Now, this obviously took weeks to approve because he's a double A prisoner. He's like the worst of the hard cases. So once she's cleared to finally visit him, she drives to the prison, and then she takes a bus from inside the prison gates to where he's being held. Then she's escorted into the visitation wing where she sat down in a small booth that separated from her incarcerated son by a thick sheet of bulletproof glass.

Speaker 2:
[40:13] You know the kind, right? So they're not sitting at a table together.

Speaker 1:
[40:17] No.

Speaker 2:
[40:17] Pick up the phone and talk to me.

Speaker 1:
[40:19] Exactly. It's like, yeah, AT&T reach out and touch someone kind of moment, right? So McAvoy is led into that same booth and he's on the other side of the bulletproof glass. He takes his seat and he looks at his mom and she's just, you know, inconsolable. And then a prison official sits in a chair behind him and records on note paper and pen and pad everything he says with the assumption that they're going to try to speak in code and he's going to try to pass a message to his stepdad via his mother.

Speaker 2:
[40:43] Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1:
[40:44] Oh, and I forgot to tell you in the next booth, also getting a visit was Islamic fundamentalist Abu Hamza.

Speaker 2:
[40:49] Nice.

Speaker 1:
[40:50] So Captain Hook is there speaking with his lawyer. So that must have been extra fun for his mom to see her boy next to Abu Hamza. Right?

Speaker 2:
[40:57] Exactly. Good God.

Speaker 1:
[40:58] Mother and son, they were allowed a 90 minute visit, right? It's the first and last time that she visited her son in prison. Oh, not her idea. It was the son's idea. McAvoy's choice. He didn't want to put his mom through that again. He could see how hard it was on her and he was like, don't come back to visit me.

Speaker 2:
[41:14] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[41:14] I'm going to bust out mom.

Speaker 2:
[41:16] So I'll see you soon. Very soon.

Speaker 1:
[41:19] Now also, by the way, for a moment back to Abu Hamza, old Captain Hook, why was this young semi-pro British underworld crib being treated the same as the man who's labeled a hardcore terrorist? Why are they equivalent? All he'd done is done a couple of stick-up moves and have a gun on him.

Speaker 2:
[41:34] That is true.

Speaker 1:
[41:35] Well, it turns out the Ministry of Justice had no intention to allow him to ever escape. They already had clocked him as an escape potential escapee. So that's why they put him in Belmarsh under the heaviest circumstances of prison guard. And getting free of Belmarsh is going to be pretty much a near impossible task. That's what they were thinking. In fact, the prison wardens and guards, they worked extra hard to make sure it was a certifiable impossible task, which left the other question, could McAvoy use his time behind bars to do the unexpected thing?

Speaker 2:
[42:08] His two lifetimes?

Speaker 1:
[42:09] Two lifetime sentences, yeah. To maybe like rehabilitate himself, change his ways, find another way to live once he's back outside. Unfortunately, the prison warden and the guards made sure that was also a near impossible task. As McAvoy told the Guardian, you get seen as a piece of s***. There was never any talk about rehabilitation of moving forward in life in a positive direction. It's just like, that's who you are, and that's what you are, and that's how you're gonna stay for the rest of your life. Now, that's a rough lesson for a 20 year old who doesn't want to be a British hard man. So in order to stay sane in the face of his two life sentences and the prescription of who he is, McAvoy begins to focus on what he can change, which is his body. He goes back to, well, let me get yoked again, right?

Speaker 2:
[42:54] Body mods.

Speaker 1:
[42:55] Got a little soft on the outside. So he decides, I'm not gonna let prison break my spirit. And so he starts to fight back against the authorities by getting super fit.

Speaker 2:
[43:04] Yeah, well, I mean, there's the endorphins that are released with physical activity.

Speaker 1:
[43:08] And then there's high, I mean, yeah. So he, just like the first time inside, he starts doing his cell circuits. He does thousands upon thousands of sit ups and push ups and burpees. And they work to keep him sane. But he was, you know, he was also even able to mind his time in solitary, because once again, they keep throwing them in solitary. So he keeps his mind intact. And finally, after two years in Belmarsh and them not being able to break him, he's deemed less of a flight risk and he gets transferred to this less severe prison. But it's still another maximum security facility. He's just not double A, now it's single A, I guess. It's this place called Full Sutton. Now, he did well there. And again, he gets transferred, this time to a category B prison. He's finally down to B, right? So like medium security facility and nottingham sure, right? This place called Loudam Grange. Now, however, escaping prison is still at the forefront of his mind. And he's still, he's clocking the possible exits. He's biding his time until a moment presents itself. As he told The Guardian, quote, I thought the minute they give me an opportunity in a semi-open prison, I'm gone. I'll go to Europe. I'll be living the lifestyle of a criminal. That was my mindset.

Speaker 2:
[44:14] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[44:15] Right? But then one day he gets news that changes everything for him. A friend of his, this fellow career criminal who's his age, who'd been operating in the Netherlands, he pulled in some small time job. It's an ATM heist, right? They're just going to grab an ATM. Yeah, there's a real small time. But the cops intervened as it took them too long to break into the ATM.

Speaker 2:
[44:33] They're like, guys, you could do way bigger than that.

Speaker 1:
[44:36] You really should put your minds to it. So there's a police chase, right? And while his friend's attempting to escape the police, basically doing what he did as a getaway driver, he crashes his car and he dies. And the TV news shows the CCTV footage of the crash, which McAvoy sees on the prison TV. It's this tremendous blow to him. He could, of course, see himself and his friend's sad, tragic fate. So something at this point switches up inside of McAvoy. He no longer dreams of escaping prison. He no longer dreams of traveling to Europe to get back into street crime. Suddenly he longs for finding a different kind of life.

Speaker 2:
[45:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[45:13] And he had to figure out what that even looked like since he's never ever seen that.

Speaker 2:
[45:17] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[45:19] So as he tells it, quote, that was the lowest I think I've ever been in my whole life. It just made me have this massive reality check about my life and where I was and what I was doing. I felt lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go. I was trapped in this physical environment and I needed to escape it. I needed to get away from the prisoners. I wanted my life to be something else than this. Right? At this point, the year is 2009. McAvoy has his epiphany moment. And again, he just does what he does. He focuses on his body. That becomes his tool for escape. He's no longer satisfied with his cell circuits of sit-ups and push-ups and burpees. He starts spending time in the prison gym. Right?

Speaker 2:
[46:00] I was hoping it'd be like the prison dance studio.

Speaker 1:
[46:02] Right? Wouldn't that be like, go Billy Madison on it?

Speaker 2:
[46:04] Through expressive dance.

Speaker 1:
[46:06] Yeah, no. Instead, one day he sees a dude working out on this strange machine. He learns it's called a rowing machine. So he asks the inmate, what the hell is this back and forth gliding thing? And he's like, it's a rowing machine, mate. So the inmate's like, all right now, I'm trying to row one million meters as a fundraiser for a children's charity. McAvoy's like, really? Can I do that too? And so Elizabeth, this was the start of a beautiful tale of redemption. McAvoy sits down, he starts rowing too.

Speaker 2:
[46:35] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[46:36] This is just a few days after he watched that CCTV footage of his friend, like, you know, his fatal crash. So he desperately needs something to take his mind off of, like, all of his bad choices, the grief he feels for his friend, the feelings of being trapped, the ineptitude of his choices, all of it.

Speaker 2:
[46:50] Well, it feels like the lights got turned on in the nightclub.

Speaker 1:
[46:53] Right?

Speaker 2:
[46:54] And he's seeing like, okay, my friend died because he couldn't get into break into an ATM fast enough. And then now everyone around Europe is watching this video of him die.

Speaker 1:
[47:04] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[47:05] And then I'm sitting here in this prison and I'm just like building up this muscle for nothing. Yeah, it's just, it's like that cold realization when you actually see everything around you for what it is.

Speaker 1:
[47:18] Totally. I mean, the lights up in the nightclub, it's a really apt metaphor.

Speaker 2:
[47:21] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[47:22] At this point, he gets into like the relentless, smooth rhythm of the rowing machine.

Speaker 2:
[47:27] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:27] And he starts rowing, and he keeps at it. And that first day, he rode 32 kilometers.

Speaker 2:
[47:33] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[47:34] Which for the conversion rate, that's about 20 miles.

Speaker 2:
[47:36] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[47:37] That's some serious rowing, right? And it was a shock to his system, to say the least, right? But it felt really, really good to just zone out, reach this like meditative state you kind of mentioned. And then like, you know, just bliss out on the muscle burn afterwards. As McAvoy told The Guardian, quote, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know anything about technique. But when I was on that machine, it was like I created this portal. It took me out of prison. Everyone left me alone. No one spoke to me. I was in my own thoughts. And then it was like meditation. It was very rhythmical. It was like the machine became an extension of my body. And so he keeps rowing. He goes back the next day and he rows again. And the next day, the next day, and he's just rowing and rowing some more. In that first month, he managed to row 1 million meters for charity, which is about 621 miles. Now that was easy enough for him, so he looked for more difficult challenges. Like, what else can I row? His next milestone is like, what if I rowed the length of the Atlantic Ocean, like east to west? Sure. Right, which is about roughly 5,000 kilometers or 3,100 miles. So he does it. Boom, boom, boom. Next accomplishment, that catches this eye of a prison guard, this cat named Darren Davis. And Davis is so impressed by McAvoy's tenacity and his attitude. He brings him a printout of all of the rowing records ever set on an indoor rowing machine.

Speaker 2:
[49:00] Oh, dang.

Speaker 1:
[49:01] Right? And Elizabeth, in a little more than a year, McAvoy now goes and he breaks three world records for indoor rowing machines. No way. Yeah, and that's not all. He also sets seven new British records. For instance, he broke the records for the longest continuous row, 45 hours.

Speaker 2:
[49:16] 45 hours.

Speaker 1:
[49:18] Continuous rowing.

Speaker 2:
[49:19] So is he just peeing on himself?

Speaker 1:
[49:22] I guess so, like a surfer.

Speaker 2:
[49:23] Like eating while he goes.

Speaker 1:
[49:25] I think so. I think he is being fed like a triathlete would, or just like, you know, slurping food out of little baggies or whatever.

Speaker 2:
[49:32] Just sweating out his pee.

Speaker 1:
[49:35] He also set the record for the farthest distance rowed in a 24-hour period, which was 263,396 meters, which is roughly 164 miles.

Speaker 2:
[49:47] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[49:47] Yeah, right? Now that he's a world record setting athlete, McAvoy starts to read up on his fellow record setters for motivation and whatnot. He's like, this is the new class I want to be in. Forget the British hardman. I'm a world class athlete.

Speaker 2:
[50:00] He has never skipped leg day. His legs must have been like tree trunks. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[50:05] But he's way beyond crushing walnuts. I can crush a car bumper. What do you got? So one guy who really stood out for him amongst the professional athletes he started reading about, is he picks up this biography of Lance Armstrong. And this is before Lance was outed as a longtime blood doping cheater. So the important part was how McAvoy saw himself in Lance, right? Which obviously is a tad ironic because, you know, it's like real recognizes real. In this case, it's like crimers recognize crimers. But to be fair, this is not what he focused on in Lance's biography. Instead, what he saw was his drive, his willingness to go for like whatever it takes to win. As McAvoy told the Independent, quote, I recognize many of my own qualities and characteristics in people like Lance Armstrong. Reading about his journey made me realize that I didn't have to channel those personality traits into crime. That's when I realized I want to be an athlete. What really changes things for him is actually twofold. Rowing gives him a new way to see himself. He's this record setting athlete, a high achiever, which is always what he wanted to be. Remember, he wanted to be like Napoleon. To know he actually is a great man on a rowing machine. And he also, he'd always just imagined that he would become a great man in crime. He never considered, like, I could be a world record setting athlete.

Speaker 2:
[51:20] Yeah, there are other ways for him to do these things.

Speaker 1:
[51:23] Totally, and then secondly, he finally had a positive male influence in his life, the first time ever.

Speaker 2:
[51:27] Lance.

Speaker 1:
[51:28] He had the prison guard, Darren Davis. That dude had his back.

Speaker 2:
[51:32] That's awesome.

Speaker 1:
[51:33] He supported him through his whole redemption arc. When McAvoy was attempting to break an indoor rowing record, Davis would be there. When he shattered the record for the most distant road in 24 hours, Darren Davis took the day off so he could be there the whole time.

Speaker 2:
[51:47] You're kidding.

Speaker 1:
[51:47] Yeah, right? And McAvoy had never experienced anything like that in his life, and he'd never seen that sort of selflessness because he knew life to be transactional. This willingness to just be there for someone without any reward or personal gain, it blew him away. He's like, I've never seen, like, no crimers do that.

Speaker 2:
[52:04] Well, you have all these guards, it's their job to kind of dehumanize everybody in there. And here the guard is bucking that and saying, I see your humanity and I'm going to celebrate it.

Speaker 1:
[52:14] Totally. And as McAvoy told the guardian, quote, he changed my life in prison. He wanted to help me for no other reason other than wanting to help me. There's nothing in it other than the purity of a human that wanted to do something for someone else without anything in it for themselves. You can hear how astounded he is. It's like, you're really doing this for nothing. What's the score, mate? Now, McAvoy credits the unselfish attitude of the prison guard, Darren Davis, with obviously changing his life. But as he explained it, quote, I knew when my friend died, I would never commit a crime again. And I didn't know where that road would have taken me, but I wouldn't have had the life I've got today unless Darren believed in me and then gave me the opportunities to use the gift that he saw I had. Finally, someone recognized not only his humanity but his potential. So now he's on a new path. And this is when freedom comes to him, right? First, he gets transferred to a new low-security prison, a Category D facility, and which is true to the rehabilitative nature of what you would hope for prison, and then also low-security European prisons in particular. He's now allowed out of the facility to help him start his new life. So he's able to get a job in a gym, and then he starts taking a bus from prison, six days a week, to go to his new job, and he becomes a personal trainer. And finally, that opportunity gets him to actually be fully free, right? He doesn't have to escape. The prison grants him parole, and he walks out a free, changed man, redeemed by his willingness to change. Now, the year was 2012. McAvoy is now a 30-year-old ex-con. His prospects were not the best, but he had faith he could make it work, right? And so, more than that, he also dreamed of becoming an endurance athlete, right? So he decides, I want to be a triathlete like Lance, or was when he first began. So he also doesn't know how to swim at this point. He's never ridden a bike.

Speaker 2:
[54:06] This cat seems to be able to pick things up quickly, so I have no doubt.

Speaker 1:
[54:10] You know how he learned to swim?

Speaker 2:
[54:11] Did he jump in the Thames?

Speaker 1:
[54:13] No, he watched YouTube videos.

Speaker 2:
[54:15] Wait, that's so cute.

Speaker 1:
[54:17] So sweet, right? And then he went and he bought a bike for himself, and he taught himself how to ride.

Speaker 2:
[54:22] You can learn anything on YouTube.

Speaker 1:
[54:24] Totally, right? And when he was first learning to ride, Elizabeth, I thought to speak, I came from a biking town of Davis, so we all rode and we were doing no hands at really young ages and surfing our bikes. So imagining this grown man, like this 30-year-old learning to ride a bike, and he used to say that he would go really slow down hills because he was worried he would crash, and he ended up riding it faster going uphill because then he's just pumping away. That's how, just imagine that moment. He's all skittish on the brakes. Sure, sure. So he decides, I'm going to learn how to compete as a triathlete. And strangely enough, his time in solitaire helped him prepare for his new life as a triathlete, like alone, enduring this crazy slug, right? So in 2013, he competes in his first Ironman triathlon. He only has six weeks to train for it, which is just nuts, right? And then I had this friend, I had this friend rather, he's sadly past, his name is Dave, and he used to run the LA Marathon, and he wouldn't train at all. He would just decide he wanted to go do the marathon. He would go sign up and just run.

Speaker 2:
[55:28] Did he run on a regular basis?

Speaker 1:
[55:30] No, I mean, he had it numerous times, like we used to rollerblade together. He was in shape, you know, and he would jog.

Speaker 2:
[55:35] But he wasn't like getting up and running like five miles a day. He hadn't trained at all.

Speaker 1:
[55:40] He just decided I'm going to go run the 26 miles, I think it is, right? And then he would go do that on his own. And he completed it. Completed it, yes, finished it.

Speaker 2:
[55:49] What?

Speaker 1:
[55:49] He was incredible. I thought about him when I was listening to this guy. So he goes, he does his first Iron Man triathlon. He doesn't win, but he does really well, right? Actually got like a good, respectable time. Totally. And he enjoys this tremendous sense of accomplishment. And Elizabeth, guess who was there waiting for him at the finish line? That's right, Darren Davis, former prison guard and his new best friend.

Speaker 2:
[56:12] Oh, I love it.

Speaker 1:
[56:14] Now his story of redemption and change obviously inspired him to join the Ridiculous Crime Book Club. So there it is, he penned a memoir.

Speaker 2:
[56:22] He's earned that.

Speaker 1:
[56:23] Totally. But he also, he wrote his book after he was out of prison. He didn't write it while he was in prison and celebrating his life of crime.

Speaker 2:
[56:30] Well, that's exactly it. Yeah, he's not trying to ride out the high of all the crimes.

Speaker 1:
[56:36] Yeah, and celebrate what we used to be.

Speaker 2:
[56:37] It's a lesson. Yeah, he wants to share what he's learned and done.

Speaker 1:
[56:41] And he's lived a hell of a life, right? And so at this point, in 2016, his memoir gets published and these folks, you know, because they always read memoirs, especially from criminals, they go, you know what, this will make a great movie.

Speaker 2:
[56:51] Nice.

Speaker 1:
[56:52] So they come to him, right? It looks like now his life's gonna be actually full circle. He'd always wanted to be like the criminals he saw in movies and now he was going to be the criminal in the movie. But he decided he didn't want to glamorize his life of crime. So he turned down multiple film offers. He would not allow his memoir to be turned into a movie. Instead, he became this tireless advocate for prison reform. That's what he did with his time and his money and his energy. He didn't want other young men to follow his former path. So he knew that seductive call of the life as a career criminal. He knew how it looks so cool to young men. So he's like, I want to help them avoid that. As he told The Guardian, it's a very toxic, horrible world. Once you get in it, it's very difficult to remove yourself from it. That's why I can relate to a lot of these kids that end up in prison for gang stuff, because I understand how they can get sucked into that world. It's very difficult for them to see anything outside of that until they get to a point of growing up and maturing. Now, obviously, he credits Darren Davis, the prison guard, for his support for helping him to change his life and his worldview, more importantly. And now he spends his time trying to repay that kindness by doing the same. Meanwhile, the British hard man who had been his early mentors, his role models, they met the sort of rough and brutal ends that come for such hard men. His uncle Mickey, who had been played by Sean Bean, he died in 2023. His stepdad, Billy Tobin, was in prison the last time he saw him. And apparently they were both in Belmarsh. And this was back in 2002. So McAvoy, he hears his stepdad's voice calling out to him. He asked the prison guard, it's like, wait, I know this guy, let me go talk to him. He gets led over to his stepdad cell. The prison guards like open the cell door because I guess he's like a big man on campus. And McAvoy is able to go and step inside his cell. And he sees his stepdad and there he is chained to this man who's like half his age. And just that sight broke the spell that had been cast so, so long ago. As McAvoy tells it, quote, it was very weird going back to when I was a kid and when I first saw him and then all the years I spent with him and all the things I was doing with him, to then see him in that situation in prison and the way he just looked really weak. He'd lost all of his power. And that was the last time I saw him. So his stepdad is still in prison to this day. Whoa. Yeah. Meanwhile, John McAvoy is free out there changing lives for the better, which is why he isn't resentful of his time in prison. As he told The Guardian, quote, I always regret what I did because of my behavior affected other people. But I don't regret the 10 years I spent in prison because I feel as if I've learned so much about myself. And yeah, I would go through that journey again if I had to. So that's just a hell of a statement. That stuck with me. And I believe that. I believe he means it like in the purest sense because of who he became and how he got himself free. And I'd wanted to tell you a positive, redemptive crime story.

Speaker 2:
[59:48] So good.

Speaker 1:
[59:48] So Elizabeth, what's a ridiculous takeaway here?

Speaker 2:
[59:52] I think the takeaway is that, there are certain things that as a society, we have a contract, a promise to members of society that you have, and it should be ideally, a place to live, an education, health care, food. We fail on most of those things. But we do have this structure, and we do have things that are owed to us, and that we have access to. But that's sort of as a generality, and there are a lot of people who just, by the nature of their lives, upbringing don't have access to it. And I think that hearing his story makes me think of, in San Quentin here, a state prison in California, they do have what's called the California model of how do we make good neighbors for when people get out. And a lot of it, it's this rehabilitation, but it's how do you direct people's energies? Yes, and your talents, you know? Because that's the thing is that like everyone is an artist in some way, even if it's like what we don't normally classify as artistry. But anything that you're really good at and you love and you can make yours, there are positive versions of it. So all of the criminals, like they have skills that just haven't had a positive twist yet. And if you can offer that, so here like he's going on this road and it's a rowing machine that opens up the rest of everything for him. Yeah. But if they didn't have that, if it wasn't on offer, if they were just making him sit like a bump on a log, like a non-human entity.

Speaker 1:
[61:31] Yeah, walking circles in the yard.

Speaker 2:
[61:32] Yeah. Then you don't have that opportunity for redemption. And so it's like, I think even for those who aren't incarcerated, we have to constantly think for ourselves and the people we know, how can we redeem ourselves? How can we redirect ourselves? If you feel like you're not being productive or not being positive, there's always a way to take your innate abilities and put them to a positive way for you to flourish.

Speaker 1:
[62:00] Completely.

Speaker 2:
[62:00] And so that is my Ridiculous Takeaway. Zaron, what's yours?

Speaker 1:
[62:03] Well, thank you for asking, Elizabeth.

Speaker 2:
[62:04] Of course.

Speaker 1:
[62:05] How very graceful of you.

Speaker 2:
[62:06] I am a very nice lady.

Speaker 1:
[62:08] Lady host. I love it. Now, mine is actually rather simple and kind of inspired by your man, Monty Don.

Speaker 2:
[62:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[62:16] Right. So I was thinking about him when I was like reading about this cat. I don't know why. I don't know. It had no obvious connection. But it reminded me of like criminals often see the world as a jungle where you have to get what you can, fight others. It's all tension and struggle and transactional relationships. But there is another way to look at that same lushness as a garden, which with a little bit of work and some maintenance and some upkeep and some maybe like working together, you can enjoy the bounties in front of you as opposed to fighting over them.

Speaker 2:
[62:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[62:45] So I was like, why don't we live in gardens instead of a jungle?

Speaker 2:
[62:48] Honestly. And what I love too about what Monty Don always kind of reinforces in his gardening show is that you can make mistakes.

Speaker 1:
[62:56] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[62:56] You can plant something that's just not going to work there and you can move it. Or sometimes you have to scrap it and start over. But it's okay. Like that's part of the process.

Speaker 1:
[63:04] Exactly. It's a flow. It's not like a fixed thing.

Speaker 2:
[63:08] So we need the world according to Monty Donne.

Speaker 1:
[63:10] Yes. Change is possible. Well, there you go, Elizabeth. That's what I got for you. So why don't we have a talk back, quaff that down and watch this one down and make it official. Producer D, can you favor us with one?

Speaker 3:
[63:37] Hey Ridiculous Crimes, I just listened to your Selling the Brooklyn Bridge episode, and I wanted to send you a little hope. My almost seven-year-old has been known her entire life to leave a litter of books in her trail, in her wake, if you will, and she continues to do so. I will often go in for bedtime, and she is surrounded by a wreath of comic books and chapter books alike. So there's still hope. Bye.

Speaker 2:
[64:04] Oh, I love that.

Speaker 1:
[64:06] You just gave us two of the biggest grins.

Speaker 2:
[64:08] It's so good. That is hope. And it's like, that's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And you're good mama. We'll say that right there.

Speaker 1:
[64:15] Completely clear. Nice work on the mamaing. I thought I just made a new verb, the mamaing. Well, Elizabeth, after I've given you so many strange tales, I wanted to see if I could give you a little extra hope. And I'm glad that we have that as more hope. Look at this for a whole hopeful episode.

Speaker 2:
[64:32] I'm very happy. This is wonderful. It kind of feels like either an episode of Tracker or like maybe RJ Decker, your other favorite show.

Speaker 1:
[64:43] I just keep looking for a Rockford Files replacement. And now they're going to make a new Rockford Files.

Speaker 2:
[64:47] Oh, are they?

Speaker 1:
[64:47] Yes, which I'm not excited. Apparently, it's David Borean. That guy played Angel.

Speaker 2:
[64:52] No, I don't like it.

Speaker 1:
[64:53] Yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2:
[64:54] I will not allow it.

Speaker 1:
[64:55] Well, as always, we are available for more.

Speaker 2:
[65:00] Parties.

Speaker 1:
[65:02] We do party tricks. We do some clowning. Crunking. Obviously, you can find us online, Ridiculous Crime on social media. That's blueski and Instagram. And on Instagram, you'll find a bunch of images from the shows. So go there, and you can have your mind's eye match up with reality, if you'd like. Also, we have the account Ridiculous Crime pod on YouTube. So that's got some cool little animations. You can go and listen if you prefer to listen on YouTube. Check it out there. Or you can go to our website, ridiculouscrime.com, where we have merch and we have a bunch of gifts, and there's a bunch of poetry from Elizabeth. No, there's not.

Speaker 2:
[65:40] Wait, what?

Speaker 1:
[65:41] We obviously love your talk back, so please go to the iHeart app, download it, leave a talk back. We'd love to hear your voice here. So if you'd like to hear your voice here, do it. And, oh, e-mails, of course, e-mail us. Please, go old school, people pop up, type it up, and send it off to RidiculousCrime at gmail.com. And if you do that, please start your e-mail, dear producer D. Thank you for listening, and we will catch you next crime. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaron Burnett, produced and edited by the baddest bad man in Belmarsh, Dave Houston, and starring Annalise Rucker as Judith. Research is by the world record holders for Facts Checked in a 24-hour period, Marissa Brown and Jabari Davis. Our theme song is by our in-house prison band, Strangers on a Strange Prison Planet, Thomas Lee and Travis Tutton. The host wardrobe provided by Body 500. Guest hair and makeup by SparkleShot and Mr. Andre. Executive producers are former prison psychologists Ben Bowen and Noel F. Ridiculous Crime.

Speaker 2:
[66:54] Say it one more time. Ridiculous Crime.

Speaker 1:
[66:58] Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.